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#462 Lauren Bright Pacheco with Greg Bright · Wrongful Conviction

0:06
Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have
0:09
Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,
0:13
Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like
0:18
Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it
0:20
Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to
0:23
Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this
0:27
Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Early on in October morning in nineteen
0:38
Speaker 1: seventy five, a fifteen year old named Elliott Porter was
0:42
Speaker 1: shot and killed in a housing project in New Orleans, Louisiana.
0:46
Speaker 1: Twenty year old Gregory Bright, along with a seventeen year
0:49
Speaker 1: old co defendant, someone he'd never met before, by the way,
0:53
Speaker 1: became suspects after a known drug addict turned state's witness
0:56
Speaker 1: implicated them in a crime in exchange for reward money.
1:01
Speaker 1: Arrested and charged with second degree murder, Gregory and his
1:04
Speaker 1: co defendant's trial would last for just one day, and
1:08
Speaker 1: the jury deliberated for all of thirteen minutes before convicting them.
1:13
Speaker 1: They were sentenced to life without the possibility of parole
1:16
Speaker 1: in Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. Though Gregory Bright was
1:21
Speaker 1: illiterate when he entered prison. He taught himself to read,
1:24
Speaker 1: then taught himself the law, getting his appeals all the
1:28
Speaker 1: way to the State Supreme Court before the Innocence Project
1:32
Speaker 1: of New Orleans stepped in. Ultimately, he would spend twenty
1:35
Speaker 1: seven and a half years in prison for a crime
1:38
Speaker 1: he did not commit. Today, Bright is an accomplished actor
1:42
Speaker 1: who's appeared in Twelve Years a Slave, American horror story
1:46
Speaker 1: and Tremay. He is also the focus of an incredible
1:50
Speaker 1: one man documentary stage play based entirely on his words
1:54
Speaker 1: and recollections, titled Never Fight a Shark in Water, The
1:59
Speaker 1: Wrongful of Gregory Bright, which explores so many aspects of
2:04
Speaker 1: this staggering injustice. It was written by New Orleans based
2:08
Speaker 1: writer Lara Naughton, who was also a teacher, compassion trainer,
2:13
Speaker 1: and survivor of a violent crime. Lara and greg have
2:18
Speaker 1: forged a mutually supportive, healing friendship and bond, and they
2:23
Speaker 1: are joining us today. I am so excited for this conversation.
2:28
Speaker 1: Welcome both of you to Wrongful Conviction.
2:31
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, thank you.
2:32
Speaker 3: It's great to be here.
2:33
Speaker 1: Greg. I wanted to start with you, can you just
2:37
Speaker 1: take me back before all of this unfolded. What was
2:41
Speaker 1: your childhood like?
2:43
Speaker 2: I had come from a small family. It was me,
2:46
Speaker 2: my mom, my two sisters, and my stepfather. We did
2:52
Speaker 2: a lot of things as a family, went to move
2:56
Speaker 2: a theater, sat at home and play called and stuff
2:59
Speaker 2: like that, average stuff.
3:01
Speaker 1: And you had a lot of responsibility placed on you
3:04
Speaker 1: as well, because you dropped out of school in sixth
3:07
Speaker 1: grade to care for your stepfather.
3:10
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know, and it was really a tough time
3:14
Speaker 2: for me, you know, be a kid, you know, thirteen
3:16
Speaker 2: years old, having a full responsibility to care for a
3:21
Speaker 2: grown adult. It often had me wondering, you know, what
3:25
Speaker 2: my life would turn into at that point.
3:28
Speaker 1: You're obviously a very creative man. Did you have hopes
3:33
Speaker 1: and aspirations when you were a child in terms of
3:37
Speaker 1: what you wanted to be when you grew up?
3:39
Speaker 2: Well, I was attracted to music and stuff, and I
3:42
Speaker 2: had several instruments or guitar, bound of drums and kind
3:47
Speaker 2: of drums. I set around when I get spare time
3:51
Speaker 2: and tinkled around with this stuff. So I always imagine
3:54
Speaker 2: myself as being some type of musician or something like that,
3:58
Speaker 2: because I was always making the picking on the guitars.
4:03
Speaker 2: But I had never actually settled into what I wanted
4:08
Speaker 2: to become or what I wanted to do. I just
4:10
Speaker 2: enjoyed the freedom that I suddenly had after my step
4:14
Speaker 2: part had passed. Was just relieved of the burden of
4:18
Speaker 2: caring for him.
4:19
Speaker 1: How old were you when he passed.
4:21
Speaker 2: I was fifteen when he passed. You know, at that
4:24
Speaker 2: point I had been out of school, well off and
4:26
Speaker 2: on since I was thirteen, and being tall as statute,
4:31
Speaker 2: I always felt out of place about the kids in
4:33
Speaker 2: my classes and stuff. But the most important part I
4:37
Speaker 2: think of experience of caring for my stepfather was the
4:40
Speaker 2: fact that he would often called me to read the
4:43
Speaker 2: Last Scripture because that was his way of trying to
4:47
Speaker 2: make sure that I stayed on top of reading and
4:49
Speaker 2: stuff or whatever. It helped me while I was in jail.
4:53
Speaker 2: It disciplined me to want to get into the books
4:56
Speaker 2: and study. It all came full circle.
4:59
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you experienced all this new freedom at
5:04
Speaker 1: the age of fifteen, because that probably made what happened
5:09
Speaker 1: when you were just twenty that much more painful. So
5:14
Speaker 1: before we even get into that, you had a very
5:18
Speaker 1: close relationship with your mom.
5:22
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. My mom was someone that I could turn
5:27
Speaker 2: to in any crisis, any bad experience. I could turn
5:30
Speaker 2: to her and she would seem to have the words.
5:34
Speaker 2: She would say just the right things that would put
5:37
Speaker 2: me back and allow me to focus and concentrate. And
5:41
Speaker 2: she was just a wonderful lady, someone that I had
5:45
Speaker 2: missed tremendously after she had passed.
5:49
Speaker 1: And I know that you and Laura definitely incorporated her
5:54
Speaker 1: wisdom into the One Man Show as well, because I
6:00
Speaker 1: feel like I got to know your mom a bit
6:03
Speaker 1: through the advice that she offered you throughout the years,
6:07
Speaker 1: which was always very powerful. Take me to that evening
6:13
Speaker 1: that changed everything for you when you were just twenty.
6:17
Speaker 1: How did that unfold?
6:19
Speaker 2: Speaking about the arrest, this particular Saturday morning, I'm laying
6:24
Speaker 2: on the south asleep and all of a sudden, they
6:26
Speaker 2: heard banging on the door. Damn, And I gets up.
6:30
Speaker 2: I look through the door. I see flashlights, see someone
6:34
Speaker 2: shine the flashlight on the porch outside, And you know,
6:38
Speaker 2: I was hesitant to open the door because really it
6:41
Speaker 2: took me out of my sleep. I thought it was
6:43
Speaker 2: knock at next door. They had apartment just less than
6:46
Speaker 2: a foot away. The doors were parallel, and my mom
6:50
Speaker 2: came downstairs after all the banking. She asked me, who
6:54
Speaker 2: was that banging on the door, you know. I said,
6:56
Speaker 2: I don't know. I said it might be the police,
6:59
Speaker 2: you know, because that's see flashlights. She said, look open
7:02
Speaker 2: the door up, you know, see what they're talking about.
7:05
Speaker 2: So I opened the door up, showed off. There was
7:07
Speaker 2: two police officers, you know. They asked me that Greg
7:11
Speaker 2: was brightly ved there. I said, yeah, that's me. So
7:13
Speaker 2: one of the guys said they had a warrant for
7:15
Speaker 2: my arrest. I said, warrant for my arrest? Yeah, I
7:18
Speaker 2: said your name had come up in our investigation involving
7:23
Speaker 2: this murderer to fifteen year old Elio Porter. I said, murder.
7:29
Speaker 2: I don't even know Elie, your poorter, you know. So
7:31
Speaker 2: the guy says that, well, look, we're just gonna bring
7:34
Speaker 2: you downtown and ask you some questions. So they brung
7:37
Speaker 2: me downtown back at two Landing Broad. They interrogated me
7:42
Speaker 2: in for maybe an hour and a half, asked me
7:45
Speaker 2: about the people that I didn't know. But I was arrested.
7:50
Speaker 2: They brung me over to all the East Parish prison
7:53
Speaker 2: and that's why I learned I had a co defendant.
7:57
Speaker 1: It's just so staggering because you had now ever had
8:00
Speaker 1: any issues with the law.
8:02
Speaker 2: No before no.
8:03
Speaker 1: And you mention in the play that your mother's attitude
8:10
Speaker 1: was sure, my son will go down with you.
8:13
Speaker 4: He didn't kill anybody, right, absolutely, you know, she just
8:17
Speaker 4: knew in her heart and her soul immediately that didn't
8:22
Speaker 4: fit the sun that she had raised.
8:25
Speaker 1: And the only time you had ever been to the
8:28
Speaker 1: New Orleans Parish prison was to visit a friend. You
8:33
Speaker 1: describe it so eloquently in your show, which I would
8:37
Speaker 1: love to play a little excerpt from, but if you
8:40
Speaker 1: can just describe as well what that place was like
8:45
Speaker 1: and how it overwhelmed your senses even before you were
8:50
Speaker 1: taken there as a prisoner, just visiting there.
8:54
Speaker 2: The experience was something that I'd never forget because I
8:57
Speaker 2: can remember there was a line of people way didn't
9:00
Speaker 2: go in, and the closer I had gotten to the
9:02
Speaker 2: door to the opening, it's like the sicklet I was becoming.
9:06
Speaker 2: It's like something had just came over me, some outside
9:12
Speaker 2: force had just taken over, and it had gotten to
9:15
Speaker 2: the point where I was about to draw up. And
9:17
Speaker 2: so the sergeant he noticed it and laughed and said
9:23
Speaker 2: you're sick, uh, And I looked at him. I said, yes, sir,
9:28
Speaker 2: I don't know what to come over man. He laughed
9:30
Speaker 2: at it. It's the smell. And I remember going inside
9:35
Speaker 2: the place and the visited with this guy, and when
9:40
Speaker 2: I got in there, I didn't smell it anymore. It's
9:43
Speaker 2: like it had totally and completely consumed me. And I'll
9:48
Speaker 2: never forget that.
9:49
Speaker 1: And not only that, that visit becomes almost a foreshadowing
9:53
Speaker 1: of what would eventually befall you, because you felt like
9:58
Speaker 1: there was a part of it that got into you
10:01
Speaker 1: right right. I wanted to draw you back into it right.
10:06
Speaker 2: When I went to visit this guy. Thank some of
10:09
Speaker 2: the evil inside the place got on me. I feel
10:15
Speaker 2: like some kind of evilness embedded itself in my body
10:20
Speaker 2: and decided I want him back in here, get him
10:26
Speaker 2: back in here. I jumped up open the door. Police
10:31
Speaker 2: asked Gregory Bright live here. Yeah, that's me. They got
10:38
Speaker 2: a warn from my arrest for the murder of Elliott Porter.
10:44
Speaker 1: It's so powerful. What was that like then getting brought
10:50
Speaker 1: back there?
10:52
Speaker 2: It was like Dasiel food. Everything that I had saw
10:55
Speaker 2: from the outside, now I'm inside and I'm stuck among
11:02
Speaker 2: what was in my mind at the time, my word
11:05
Speaker 2: nightmare of being placed in there against my will.
11:10
Speaker 1: And that's the first time you ever met your seventeen
11:13
Speaker 1: year old code defendant.
11:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, I met him while we were in prison. His
11:18
Speaker 2: face looked at famili but come to find out, he
11:22
Speaker 2: was the brother of the person that I was thinking about.
11:26
Speaker 2: He was the younger brother of the person that seemed familiar.
11:30
Speaker 1: Now, I just want to point out to listeners that
11:32
Speaker 1: we're not going to fully name your code defendant or
11:35
Speaker 1: use the last name of the woman, Sheila, who ended
11:39
Speaker 1: up being the witness against you. And if you want
11:42
Speaker 1: to just touch upon why that's important to you, why
11:45
Speaker 1: you're so protective of both of them, but particularly her.
11:50
Speaker 2: After I spoke with her, she told me some things
11:55
Speaker 2: about what she had experienced in her life, and I
11:59
Speaker 2: knew that this wasn't just entirely her doing, you know,
12:04
Speaker 2: I know it was a difficult thing for her, you know,
12:07
Speaker 2: to send two innocent people to prison, But it was
12:10
Speaker 2: the life that she lived. It was the choices that
12:13
Speaker 2: she made, even though they there was choices that devastated
12:18
Speaker 2: not only in my life but my co defender's life.
12:21
Speaker 2: And family, and I knew it was difficult for her,
12:25
Speaker 2: and I just didn't won't to add to whatever trouble
12:28
Speaker 2: that she may have had on me be facing in
12:31
Speaker 2: the future.
12:33
Speaker 1: Greg. I'm so humbled by your grace, sincerely, because the
12:38
Speaker 1: woman that we're referring to had mental illness and addiction illness,
12:43
Speaker 1: and she exchanged her testimony for financial incentive, which is
12:50
Speaker 1: what's wrong with the system more than anything else. But
12:53
Speaker 1: I've always tried to live believing that we're all victims
12:59
Speaker 1: of victims, and that hurt people end up hurting other people.
13:03
Speaker 1: And the fact that you lost twenty seven and a
13:07
Speaker 1: half years of your life because of that testimony and
13:11
Speaker 1: you still afford her grace is so incredibly inspiring and evolved.
13:19
Speaker 1: So you're held in parish prison for seven or so
13:23
Speaker 1: months before the trial, you are appointed a public defender
13:29
Speaker 1: who you met with I believe once before the trial.
13:32
Speaker 2: Once. Yes, this guy spoke to me at a preliminary
13:37
Speaker 2: here in nineteen seventy six, the early part jam maybe
13:43
Speaker 2: January seventy six, and he asked that I have a
13:48
Speaker 2: list of my witnesses to people that I intend to
13:50
Speaker 2: call as witnesses, And I said Yeah. I had given
13:53
Speaker 2: it to a guy from the Indigit Defenders program and
13:57
Speaker 2: he had taken an IX him. I asked him, did
14:01
Speaker 2: he speaked any and he said, no, I'll get around
14:03
Speaker 2: to it, and he never did. He never spoke to
14:06
Speaker 2: any of my witnesses.
14:08
Speaker 1: So his whole defense was he didn't do it.
14:10
Speaker 2: He didn't do it.
14:12
Speaker 1: Leading up to that trial, did you, your co defendant
14:16
Speaker 1: and your mom, your family believe that this mistake was
14:21
Speaker 1: going to be corrected in the court of law?
14:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, well absolutely, you know what I mean here, I'm
14:25
Speaker 2: an innocent person. You know, I had absolutely zero to
14:29
Speaker 2: do with this crime. The lady who testified against me,
14:32
Speaker 2: I didn't know her. The guy who I'm on a
14:35
Speaker 2: crime with, I didn't know him. I didn't know the
14:38
Speaker 2: guy who was killed. You know, you're saying that you
14:43
Speaker 2: and this guy committed this crime together, but you've never
14:46
Speaker 2: once shown anything other than the testimony of this witness
14:51
Speaker 2: that were associated with each other.
14:54
Speaker 1: It must have been like an episode of the Twilight
14:56
Speaker 1: Zone for you.
14:57
Speaker 2: Yes, but you know, now, here's the thing about the trial.
15:01
Speaker 2: In hindsight, looking at all of the facts and the
15:04
Speaker 2: circumstances of this case, you know I mean, orchestration is
15:09
Speaker 2: just clear from start to finish.
15:14
Speaker 1: And the fact that leading up to the trial you
15:17
Speaker 1: were offered a plea deal of five years and you
15:21
Speaker 1: didn't want to take it because you were innocent.
15:25
Speaker 2: In fact, five years you kidding me? It could have
15:30
Speaker 2: said five days. It would have seemed like a life sentence,
15:34
Speaker 2: five days in prison. Oh no, indeed, no, Uh, you're
15:37
Speaker 2: gonna you'd have to do more than just throw that
15:41
Speaker 2: out there and expect me to accept it. No.
15:45
Speaker 1: No, So that mockery of a trial asks for all
16:01
Speaker 1: of the day and the jury deliberates for all of
16:05
Speaker 1: thirteen minutes.
16:08
Speaker 2: I was like, look, they don't have anything to have
16:10
Speaker 2: a gun, They don't have a n eye witness, you know.
16:13
Speaker 2: But when we got the trial and the state put
16:18
Speaker 2: on his case. After the state rest, my lawyers came
16:22
Speaker 2: and said, look, there's a recess. You know the purpose
16:24
Speaker 2: of this. You know, we're going to switch over to
16:26
Speaker 2: the defense and if we want to, we could call
16:30
Speaker 2: witnesses and stuff like that. He said, I'm gonna come
16:33
Speaker 2: forward with co counsel and we're going to decide whether
16:36
Speaker 2: now we're going to proceed with the with the alibi defense,
16:40
Speaker 2: and after recess was over, he came back in and
16:44
Speaker 2: you know, this guy get them say you only at
16:46
Speaker 2: this time the defense rest. And that was followed by
16:51
Speaker 2: my co defendanse co counsel saying the same thing. And
16:55
Speaker 2: when I questioned him about the defense rest, he said that, y'all,
17:00
Speaker 2: we decided that we're not going to go forward with
17:02
Speaker 2: the defense witness because state witness and got on the
17:06
Speaker 2: stand and cried and put on a show. See, he
17:09
Speaker 2: felt that would only aggravate the judge if we put
17:12
Speaker 2: on alibi witnesses. And I said, aggravate the judge, I said,
17:15
Speaker 2: the judge is not on trial here.
17:18
Speaker 1: And then that's all they had his, you know, the
17:21
Speaker 1: hysterical testimony of a woman who it turns out had
17:26
Speaker 1: been in a mental institution absolutely leading up to her
17:30
Speaker 1: time on that trial. There's no physical evidence against you
17:35
Speaker 1: or your co defendant. There's no murder weapon that was
17:39
Speaker 1: ever found and traced to either one of you. What
17:43
Speaker 1: was going through your head before they announced the verdict?
17:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was just absolutely couldn't believe it.
17:48
Speaker 2: You know. In fact, when he came back and started
17:50
Speaker 2: reading off the charge and stuff like that, I didn't
17:53
Speaker 2: want to show that I was just so devastated. I
17:56
Speaker 2: just wanted to just really be strong, but I could
18:00
Speaker 2: help it. I look back. You know, my mom was
18:02
Speaker 2: in tears. You know, my girlfriend were in tears. My sisters,
18:08
Speaker 2: they weren't tears. Something. People were saying, well, we came
18:10
Speaker 2: to testify, when we're going to testify, and he ushering
18:13
Speaker 2: them out the courtroom, and it was just a lot
18:16
Speaker 2: of people is just really caught by surprise, especially for
18:21
Speaker 2: the people that really knew me. They know that he's
18:25
Speaker 2: not a murderer. It was just it was heartbreaking.
18:30
Speaker 1: And then you're sentenced to life without the possibility of
18:33
Speaker 1: parole in a place that honestly sounds at that time
18:39
Speaker 1: particularly like hell, we're going to play an excerpt from
18:45
Speaker 1: your show about Angola, but can you just talk to
18:50
Speaker 1: me about even what the journey from Parish prison to
18:58
Speaker 1: Angola was like?
19:00
Speaker 2: Huh. To say that it was horrible is an understatement.
19:08
Speaker 2: It was my worst nightmare, magnified one hundred times, like
19:14
Speaker 2: something that someone just put together and put all the
19:19
Speaker 2: horrible things that they can imagine, just throwed it in there.
19:23
Speaker 2: You know, it's like the trip gone there. I mean,
19:26
Speaker 2: we're in the back of paddy wagon. It's seven of
19:30
Speaker 2: us leg iron and seated in the back of this
19:35
Speaker 2: little suv thing and this snake rolle that leads from
19:44
Speaker 2: Highway sixty one to the prison. It was just frightening.
19:47
Speaker 2: It's like you're about to fall off a clip in
19:50
Speaker 2: a second even getting to this place. And once you
19:55
Speaker 2: get there, you are among those worries people in the world,
20:04
Speaker 2: people that has committed all sorts of crimes against children,
20:11
Speaker 2: against the elderly, against family members. And I gotta make
20:19
Speaker 2: sense of this stuff. I'm not in the same mind
20:22
Speaker 2: frame with these guys. I don't go to bed at
20:24
Speaker 2: night and have nightmare of the crime that outne committed.
20:28
Speaker 2: I go to bed at night, I sleep peacefully. You know,
20:31
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't have these demons ride me and
20:35
Speaker 2: stuff like that. But I'm among most of them who
20:40
Speaker 2: who are going through this stuff, are experiencing or revisiting
20:45
Speaker 2: these crimes. And Gold is the bottom of the ball.
20:51
Speaker 2: You have to be drawn away to go there, and
20:54
Speaker 2: gold life of fifty or one hundred and fifty fact
20:59
Speaker 2: maximum I'm security prisons five thousand in means now it's
21:04
Speaker 2: six thouars. The only people qualified for a bed and
21:08
Speaker 2: a Golda. It's those guys who are sentenced to die
21:12
Speaker 2: in that bed. It's the last stop. Ain't Golda used
21:19
Speaker 2: to be a slave plantation. The name a Golda originates
21:23
Speaker 2: from the Africans who worked the plantation camp there used
21:27
Speaker 2: to be the old slave camp. I mean, that's something
21:33
Speaker 2: else to be part of such a long, long history.
21:39
Speaker 2: How do you claim a spot that's littered with blood.
21:44
Speaker 2: I'm talking about hundreds of years of brutality, the pain
21:51
Speaker 2: and suffering that land caused, the violence that exist on
21:56
Speaker 2: them grounds.
22:00
Speaker 1: How did you have to change as a person to
22:05
Speaker 1: survive it? How did you have to change from the
22:08
Speaker 1: moment you got there? What did you have to learn
22:13
Speaker 1: and teach yourself?
22:16
Speaker 2: I mean, going in there, I had two fears. I
22:19
Speaker 2: didn't want to die in prison, which I knew was
22:22
Speaker 2: a great possibility, and I didn't want to be in
22:27
Speaker 2: prison when my mom died. But going in there, I said,
22:30
Speaker 2: I don't have no problem with none of the inmates,
22:34
Speaker 2: no problem with the security. I know they're here to
22:37
Speaker 2: do a job. I know guys here to do a since.
22:39
Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with any of that. What
22:41
Speaker 2: I have a problem with is the fact that I'm
22:44
Speaker 2: in prison for a crime I didn't commit. I'm going
22:48
Speaker 2: to do everything in my power try and get out,
22:53
Speaker 2: And somehow, in some way showed that I didn't have
22:57
Speaker 2: anything to do with it. Anyone that would listen, and
23:00
Speaker 2: I would tell them, Look, you know, I'm here for
23:01
Speaker 2: something I didn't do. You know, I'm not out here
23:03
Speaker 2: ribbing people and raping people and doing all kinds of stuff.
23:07
Speaker 2: It's just some kind of mix up that eventually it's
23:10
Speaker 2: going to be revealed. That was the position I took,
23:13
Speaker 2: and I stood on that.
23:15
Speaker 1: In addition to teaching yourself how to read to make
23:20
Speaker 1: up for those years that you missed in school, you
23:23
Speaker 1: end up mastering the law and defending yourself all the
23:28
Speaker 1: way to the State Supreme Court. But they kept you
23:30
Speaker 1: pretty busy in terms of the physical labor you were
23:34
Speaker 1: expected to do while you were there, in terms of
23:37
Speaker 1: digging ditches and backbreaking work.
23:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've sentenced a hard labor, you know. So now
23:44
Speaker 2: I have a life sentence and I'm required to work
23:49
Speaker 2: hard for the rest of my life something I didn't do.
23:52
Speaker 2: But the first thing, I'm just like, look all this
23:54
Speaker 2: agriculture stuff. I'm a little too tall for that. All
23:57
Speaker 2: this bending over and stuff like that. So I was
23:59
Speaker 2: always going to the whole some guys who are like,
24:02
Speaker 2: suck Sam man, you need to stop going the whole man.
24:05
Speaker 2: But the physical label was just entirely too much for me.
24:09
Speaker 1: So said, one way or the other, they're gonna break you.
24:11
Speaker 1: They're gonna break your spirit, they're gonna break your back,
24:13
Speaker 1: and they're gonna break your will.
24:15
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
24:16
Speaker 1: But then there's something that you two touch upon in
24:21
Speaker 1: the show that continues to blow my mind today, and
24:25
Speaker 1: that is the work that you ended up doing at
24:29
Speaker 1: the then governor's mansion, which I don't think anybody can
24:34
Speaker 1: wrap their head around. Will you please explain it to me?
24:39
Speaker 2: Well, it came as quite a surprise to me too,
24:41
Speaker 2: you know, because I'm setting in prison, you know, and
24:45
Speaker 2: of course I didn't know anything about it. You know.
24:47
Speaker 2: But each time the governor is about to leave office
24:52
Speaker 2: and or come into office, he would usually commute the
24:57
Speaker 2: sentence of the people that work for him. And that's
25:00
Speaker 2: if you didn't have a real controversial case where people
25:04
Speaker 2: were making a lot of noise and a lot of
25:05
Speaker 2: protests and stuff like if he could slide you drew
25:09
Speaker 2: there without any opposition or a little opposition. Then that
25:14
Speaker 2: was the way it was the second term. It's is
25:18
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine. He can't run for governor any longer.
25:22
Speaker 2: David Trean has won governorship and he's about to take office.
25:27
Speaker 2: So they come to prison. They said, look, everyone that
25:31
Speaker 2: was gonna commute the sentence of all the people that
25:33
Speaker 2: works for him, So we're gonna need seventeen guys to
25:36
Speaker 2: go down to the governor's mansion. I couldn't believe that
25:39
Speaker 2: I was chosen to be a part of that. For
25:42
Speaker 2: all the people that was interviewed, and they winded down
25:45
Speaker 2: to the seventeen and I was part of the seventeen.
25:48
Speaker 2: I didn't really feel it was a blessing that people
25:53
Speaker 2: were saying it was. To me, oh man, it's a blessing,
25:55
Speaker 2: you know. I imagine it is a blessing for somebody that's
25:58
Speaker 2: actually guilty.
25:59
Speaker 1: But in reality, you were then given a uniform and
26:04
Speaker 1: you're basically domestic help at the governor's mansion.
26:10
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean I went there, have the dishwasher. A
26:12
Speaker 2: guy in the kitchen said, look, you need to start
26:14
Speaker 2: bringing the governor's wife breakfast. Then that would help you
26:17
Speaker 2: over the long haul, you know, I'm When the governor's
26:20
Speaker 2: wife become friendly, she know your face and know your name,
26:24
Speaker 2: she would encourage her husband to commute your sin. But
26:27
Speaker 2: I wasn't interested in a commutation of my sins. I
26:31
Speaker 2: wanted my freedom.
26:33
Speaker 1: You're a man who has been wrongfully accused, wrongfully convicted,
26:38
Speaker 1: but convicted of murder, and other people who have been
26:44
Speaker 1: convicted of am I right that you had to just
26:47
Speaker 1: be a pure murderer. They wouldn't take anybody who had
26:51
Speaker 1: been convicted.
26:52
Speaker 2: And that's the one thing I've found credit by these
26:55
Speaker 2: people that committed some serious offense. But they're working on
27:00
Speaker 2: the governor. Like I said, when I first went to
27:02
Speaker 2: the governor's mentioned, I was on the dishwash. After speaking
27:06
Speaker 2: with the governor's wife, they suddenly put me over the
27:09
Speaker 2: main dining hall. I can't believe it. Of course they
27:13
Speaker 2: didn't know me. I could have been the actual killer
27:16
Speaker 2: or something. But I'm working serving the governor.
27:19
Speaker 1: It's so corrupt, it's just so crazy. It's so crazy.
27:25
Speaker 1: Do you put it wonderfully in the show, which I
27:29
Speaker 1: hope everybody reads and gets the chance to see absolutely eventually,
27:33
Speaker 1: But where did you get the drive and the strength
27:39
Speaker 1: to fight to get out. For twenty seven and a
27:41
Speaker 1: half years, I went.
27:43
Speaker 2: Through this period of just being angry, and I came
27:46
Speaker 2: to the conclusion that just, you know, I'm just been
27:48
Speaker 2: in a lot of energy just being angry and not
27:52
Speaker 2: getting anything done. My angle still there, but it started
27:55
Speaker 2: to subside enough to allow me the venture off in
27:58
Speaker 2: the other areas, like my reading and comprehension. And once
28:03
Speaker 2: I learned how to read, I mean, doors started opening
28:06
Speaker 2: up that I didn't even know was there, and that
28:10
Speaker 2: it kept me motivated, kept me interested, and I challenged
28:13
Speaker 2: that energy into the legal aspect, that is, it just
28:18
Speaker 2: took over me. And you know, I started reading cases,
28:22
Speaker 2: cases of people that I knew, and the case the
28:27
Speaker 2: actual trial proceedings the people that I was in the
28:33
Speaker 2: dome with. So if I was curious about somebody in
28:35
Speaker 2: the dome, all I do is get their name and
28:38
Speaker 2: read their case. And so most of the guys in
28:42
Speaker 2: the dome, I knew more about their case than they did.
28:45
Speaker 1: And then if you understand how it happened to them,
28:49
Speaker 1: and sometimes they were correctly convicted, you begin to understand
28:56
Speaker 1: how the system was used against you.
28:58
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it was a lot own process. You know,
29:01
Speaker 2: I wish that it could have been cut in half,
29:06
Speaker 2: but it played out in its own time and stuff,
29:08
Speaker 2: and I was just so thankful that along the way
29:14
Speaker 2: I would be able to make the right transitions and
29:18
Speaker 2: make the right decisions moving forward.
29:21
Speaker 1: And Laura, you've been incredibly patient, and we're going to
29:24
Speaker 1: get to you in just one second too. But you
29:28
Speaker 1: mentioned Greg that you had two wishes and to desires
29:33
Speaker 1: and hopes when all of this happened to you, and
29:35
Speaker 1: one was that you didn't die in prison. But the
29:38
Speaker 1: other one was that you wouldn't be in prison when
29:41
Speaker 1: your mom passed, And that, to me is one of
29:45
Speaker 1: the most heartbreaking aspects of this. Yeah, and the way
29:49
Speaker 1: in which you were told, if you're comfortable talking to that.
29:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Here's the thing about my mom fast and
29:56
Speaker 2: it came as a total surprise to me. My family
30:00
Speaker 2: they wouldn't tell me exactly what was going on with
30:05
Speaker 2: my mom's help, calling to my sisters reasoning it was that, well,
30:11
Speaker 2: you you already under pressure in prison. But I was like, look,
30:15
Speaker 2: you should have told me that way, I would have
30:18
Speaker 2: been prepared when this guy it came into the dome.
30:23
Speaker 2: But when the priest came into the dormitory, came in
30:26
Speaker 2: and called my name. It just took everything out of me.
30:29
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just my mind just everything was just
30:32
Speaker 2: a blur. You know, if the people I had been
30:35
Speaker 2: around at a great length of time just seemed like strangers,
30:41
Speaker 2: Like I'm looking at him the first time.
30:44
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about how working to break your
30:48
Speaker 1: back and the hole to break your spirit, but that
30:50
Speaker 1: must have just broken your heart.
30:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was done, you know. I mean, I kept
30:56
Speaker 2: telling myself that I'm on let ass through the night.
31:01
Speaker 2: Just with that low I was just it's all I
31:04
Speaker 2: had in the world's gone. Just like that, having someone
31:08
Speaker 2: that you can call on in a situation, it's a
31:11
Speaker 2: really good feeling to have that I can call on
31:14
Speaker 2: this person and suddenly it's no longer there. It was
31:20
Speaker 2: in a dog hole. I was in a dog place.
31:23
Speaker 2: I just I couldn't find my way, and all the
31:27
Speaker 2: work I had done, my LOCKO was in the middle
31:29
Speaker 2: of out, and I tell myself, I'm getting up in
31:33
Speaker 2: the morning, I'm I'm try to do a little reading
31:37
Speaker 2: or whatever. But I look at that lock and I
31:39
Speaker 2: just get so frustrated, slamming back down what I'm doing it.
31:43
Speaker 1: For another aspect of Angola is it's so difficult to
31:49
Speaker 1: get to for family. It's so inconvenient and hard to
31:55
Speaker 1: make the trip, which makes the cruelty of it even
32:00
Speaker 1: much more magnified. But thankfully you did open that locker again,
32:06
Speaker 1: and you fought argued your appeals all the way up
32:10
Speaker 1: to the State Supreme Court, and then the Innocence Project
32:15
Speaker 1: of New Orleans got involved, and by the end of it,
32:19
Speaker 1: the court overturned your convictions and that was upheld by
32:23
Speaker 1: the Louisiana Supreme Court. And then on June twenty fourth,
32:27
Speaker 1: two thousand and three, after twenty seven years, seven months,
32:31
Speaker 1: and ten days in prison, you and your code of
32:33
Speaker 1: defendant were both released after the Orleans Parish DA dismissed
32:39
Speaker 1: all charges. This still just hits in such a painful way.
32:47
Speaker 1: You and your code defendant left prison with nothing but
32:52
Speaker 1: ten dollars check from the state and garbage bags full
32:57
Speaker 1: of your legal paperwork that sugarcoating ith ten dollars.
33:03
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that. When we were leaving the prison
33:05
Speaker 2: gave me the envelope with the check. He said, Man,
33:08
Speaker 2: I would tear that check up. He said, that's a shame.
33:11
Speaker 2: Someone to be in prison all these years for something
33:14
Speaker 2: that he didn't do, and to be handed a check
33:18
Speaker 2: for ten dollars that's not even bus fare to wherever
33:22
Speaker 2: you is you going. I said, yeah, I'm just glad
33:26
Speaker 2: to be out. I'm glad to be getting away from this.
33:29
Speaker 2: They could have kept the check. But when you think
33:31
Speaker 2: about it, for twenty seven something years in prison, worked
33:35
Speaker 2: in the fields a little time, stayed a lot of
33:39
Speaker 2: years in the kitchen. I stayed a lot of years
33:42
Speaker 2: the horse lode, stayed a couple of years that the
33:44
Speaker 2: governor's mentioned. And to be given a check for ten dollars.
33:51
Speaker 1: It's so disgusting. I can't even I have no words.
33:55
Speaker 1: And then you're tasked with processing everything that happen up
34:00
Speaker 1: into you and just building a new life.
34:03
Speaker 2: That's still difficult because I'm at a great disadvantage when
34:08
Speaker 2: I get out. I'm not twenty years old any longer.
34:10
Speaker 2: I'm far to seven years old. I don't have any finances.
34:15
Speaker 2: I have to start at the bottom. I was offered
34:18
Speaker 2: a lot of jobs. I could have worked with a
34:21
Speaker 2: couple of lawyers and stuff, but I didn't want to
34:24
Speaker 2: be a part or at the prison. I wanted to
34:28
Speaker 2: be away from that. I didn't want to profit off
34:31
Speaker 2: of someone's grieve, someone's pain and suffering. I needed to
34:36
Speaker 2: re energize myself, reinvent myself, and then see what was
34:41
Speaker 2: out there. And it's been real, real difficult doing that.
34:46
Speaker 1: Because it's not like you're suddenly given a blueprint, right,
34:51
Speaker 1: And even though you did end up receiving some compensation,
34:56
Speaker 1: it was nominal, right.
34:58
Speaker 2: I don't even feel that it's just enough compensation to
35:02
Speaker 2: get you in the world or death. And the thing
35:05
Speaker 2: about it is, I don't feel like I've been compensated.
35:10
Speaker 2: I don't care what the numbers could be. I can't
35:17
Speaker 2: be compensated for what happened, the experience of being incarcerated
35:24
Speaker 2: among the type of people that I was incarcerated with
35:28
Speaker 2: for that length of time. I mean, it's just just
35:33
Speaker 2: one day of that is enough that you would never
35:39
Speaker 2: ever want to be involved in that kind of stuff again.
36:01
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You
36:04
Speaker 1: can listen to this and all the Lava for Good
36:07
Speaker 1: podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to
36:11
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I would love
36:22
Speaker 1: to know now from you Laura, how you guys first
36:27
Speaker 1: crossed paths.
36:29
Speaker 3: We met when Greg had been out of prison, I
36:32
Speaker 3: guess about four years, and I was a volunteer working
36:37
Speaker 3: with the Innocence Project as a narrative consultant because there
36:42
Speaker 3: are probably more people exonerated out of Louisiana than any
36:46
Speaker 3: other state, because there are more wrongful convictions in Louisiana,
36:50
Speaker 3: and so many people had been coming out of Angola,
36:55
Speaker 3: and like Greg, decades of experience. People were very interested
37:00
Speaker 3: in hearing their stories. But you know, what do you
37:03
Speaker 3: do with twenty seven and a half years of incarceration?
37:07
Speaker 3: How do you even begin to put that into a
37:09
Speaker 3: fifteen minute presentation for a church or community center. We
37:13
Speaker 3: had a group of four people. Initially my role was
37:15
Speaker 3: to help kind of start to shape some of this
37:19
Speaker 3: life experience. So we worked together for a few months
37:23
Speaker 3: and had a presentation with all four of the exoneries.
37:29
Speaker 3: During that time, I was just continually drawn to Greg.
37:32
Speaker 3: Greg as you can tell, as a great heart, he
37:35
Speaker 3: has a lot of wisdom, He's a great storyteller. And
37:39
Speaker 3: so after the initial project was complete, we continued to
37:42
Speaker 3: work together for the next couple of years and we
37:45
Speaker 3: would meet everywhere. We met at coffee shops, we met
37:47
Speaker 3: in the park, we met at my office. We met
37:49
Speaker 3: once once or twice a week for a couple of years.
37:52
Speaker 2: You know, he used to always say, wait a minute, great,
37:55
Speaker 2: wait a minute, let me give our record. Let me
37:57
Speaker 2: tell you that what did you talk about? I know,
38:02
Speaker 2: I got to type.
38:03
Speaker 3: This out and I just asked him question after question
38:06
Speaker 3: and recorded every conversation, transcribed it word for word. I
38:10
Speaker 3: had hundreds and hundreds of pages of transcribed notes, and
38:14
Speaker 3: slowly it took the shape of one man play.
38:19
Speaker 1: I should imagine too that it's interesting as an EXONERI
38:24
Speaker 1: because people will ask you questions, But how much do
38:28
Speaker 1: they really want to know? Like how deep is their
38:31
Speaker 1: commitment to your experience? And you met your mat Yeah?
38:35
Speaker 2: Absolutely, but this has been the most rewarding experience that
38:40
Speaker 2: I've ever had. It's painful in a lot of ways,
38:43
Speaker 2: but it's painfully true.
38:46
Speaker 1: Is it what led you on your path to become
38:49
Speaker 1: an actor?
38:50
Speaker 2: Yes? And no. I mean first we had a professional
38:53
Speaker 2: actor that was doing play. But God starts swaying from
38:57
Speaker 2: the script, slowly out putting this personal stuff in there.
39:03
Speaker 2: It was like, l I was like, you know what
39:06
Speaker 2: maybe it be a good idea for you to do
39:07
Speaker 2: to play. I had never thought about acting, but of
39:10
Speaker 2: course it's not acting because this is something I've gone through,
39:14
Speaker 2: this is my experience. So I really didn't look at
39:17
Speaker 2: it like acting. But I was comfortable enough to pursue
39:21
Speaker 2: other interest in acting. One of the interns that at
39:26
Speaker 2: the time was working at Hypno she decided to switch career,
39:32
Speaker 2: becoming part of the second lind Studios here in New Orleans,
39:35
Speaker 2: and so she became my agent, Megan Lewis. She's a
39:40
Speaker 2: tremendous person with the good heart, good spirit and stuff,
39:43
Speaker 2: and so she is responsible for me being in these movies,
39:49
Speaker 2: The Twelve Years, the Slave, twelve Rounds Jones. Seeing it's
39:54
Speaker 2: just a few of those movies, she was instrumental in
39:57
Speaker 2: me being.
39:58
Speaker 1: A part of What about working on the entire process
40:03
Speaker 1: of creating that show with Laura was therapeutic for you?
40:09
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely. I mean one point, I couldn't get through
40:15
Speaker 2: the mother scene. I'd always break down and just get
40:18
Speaker 2: these flashbacks and we'd have to stop and start back
40:22
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. You know, you know, it took
40:25
Speaker 2: me a long time to really put my mom's debt
40:28
Speaker 2: in perspective, you know.
40:30
Speaker 1: And that is something that you got to purge in
40:33
Speaker 1: this show, right, because it's your truth, right and Lara
40:38
Speaker 1: to you, and it's very evident in what you guys
40:44
Speaker 1: have created together, your empathy and your compassion and your understanding.
40:49
Speaker 1: I know, in addition to being an incredibly gifted writer,
40:53
Speaker 1: you're also a compassion trainer. But you are also the
41:00
Speaker 1: survivor of a violent attack that happened years ago while
41:05
Speaker 1: you were traveling. In what way did dealing with that
41:09
Speaker 1: trauma lead you to what you do today and how
41:14
Speaker 1: you crossed paths with Greg?
41:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, very directly.
41:19
Speaker 1: So.
41:19
Speaker 3: As you mentioned, I was traveling in Belize and I
41:22
Speaker 3: was picked up by a man pretending to be a
41:24
Speaker 3: cab driver and I was kidnapped into the jungle where
41:27
Speaker 3: I was robbed and raped, and the man intended to
41:31
Speaker 3: kill me. And I couldn't run, I couldn't hide, I
41:36
Speaker 3: couldn't overpower the man. But what I could do was
41:38
Speaker 3: turn toward his pain. And you mentioned earlier that one
41:42
Speaker 3: of your fundamental beliefs is that hurt people hurt people,
41:46
Speaker 3: and that was so obvious in this experience. It was
41:49
Speaker 3: to my benefit that he was a real talker, and
41:51
Speaker 3: so he was telling me the problems of his life,
41:54
Speaker 3: and so I turned my attention toward him, and caring
41:57
Speaker 3: for him is what literally saved my life. And so
42:00
Speaker 3: at the end of that experience, I was living in
42:03
Speaker 3: Los Angeles at the time I flew home. I was
42:06
Speaker 3: just trying to make sense of this, what just happened?
42:09
Speaker 3: And what is this thing called compassion? I knew to
42:12
Speaker 3: call it compassion, but I didn't know what compassion was.
42:14
Speaker 3: Certainly wasn't a compassion trainer yet at that point. And
42:19
Speaker 3: so thus began my journey. You know, I started down
42:22
Speaker 3: that walk of first trying to learn about first, trying
42:25
Speaker 3: to heal from that experience, from the fear of it,
42:28
Speaker 3: but also the disappointment that I experienced when I wanted
42:34
Speaker 3: to express care and concern not just for myself, but
42:38
Speaker 3: also for him, for his wellbeing, for his healing, because
42:43
Speaker 3: to me, the best consequence that could come from this
42:47
Speaker 3: is that we would both heal so that he would
42:49
Speaker 3: no longer have the kind of hurt and pain that
42:52
Speaker 3: would hurt then someone else. But I was met with
42:55
Speaker 3: a lot of resistance to that idea, and so I
43:00
Speaker 3: kept looking for teachers and counselors who I could work with,
43:04
Speaker 3: and I was having a really hard time finding people
43:07
Speaker 3: who would match my exploration. And so I moved to
43:12
Speaker 3: New Orleans right after Katrina, and that seemed to make
43:15
Speaker 3: a lot of sense to me. The city was sort
43:17
Speaker 3: of in upheaval. My life was recently in upheaval, and
43:22
Speaker 3: everyone was just putting pieces back together again. I didn't
43:26
Speaker 3: think about it consciously. I love New Orleans, but I
43:29
Speaker 3: also felt really comfortable in that mess. And it was
43:33
Speaker 3: only I was only in New Orleans for a couple
43:35
Speaker 3: of years before I met Greg and the other exoneries,
43:38
Speaker 3: And so Greg was somebody who could shed some light
43:43
Speaker 3: on the experience of incarceration and the experience of people
43:46
Speaker 3: who were responsible for harm, but he himself was not
43:50
Speaker 3: responsible for that harm, and so he was a step
43:53
Speaker 3: closer to my questions. My time with Greg was away
43:57
Speaker 3: for me to really start to sort out both my
44:00
Speaker 3: questions and some answers. So he really became a great
44:03
Speaker 3: teacher for me.
44:05
Speaker 1: So you both brought about a great deal of healing
44:09
Speaker 1: in one another's lives just through this creative process that
44:14
Speaker 1: you shared.
44:17
Speaker 3: Healing is, for sure process, and I think we intersected
44:21
Speaker 3: in that process. Greg had already done healing work before
44:24
Speaker 3: we met, so had I. We were able to support
44:28
Speaker 3: one another while we were working on the play, and
44:31
Speaker 3: of course both of us are still doing our work
44:33
Speaker 3: beyond that, and yes, but there's something about working on
44:37
Speaker 3: a creative project that places the experience outside of us
44:42
Speaker 3: so that we can kind of look at it, shape it,
44:45
Speaker 3: move it around. And I do want to talk a
44:47
Speaker 3: little bit too about Greg talking about his mom's death.
44:53
Speaker 3: When Greg and I first started meeting, Greg talked about
44:57
Speaker 3: his mom's death every single time, and it was by
45:03
Speaker 3: far the most painful things still in his life. And
45:10
Speaker 3: after a while, after months of this, I became very
45:13
Speaker 3: concerned about what we were doing, because, yes, working on
45:18
Speaker 3: a creative project and story sharing can be healing, but
45:22
Speaker 3: it also can be re traumatizing, and if done without
45:27
Speaker 3: that care and sensitivity, it can really it can be devastating.
45:31
Speaker 3: It's like it's opening a wound. It's opening a wound.
45:34
Speaker 3: I mean, it was so complex and so deep. So
45:37
Speaker 3: I actually went off for a little while and I
45:39
Speaker 3: got trained in some trauma narrative work so that I
45:43
Speaker 3: could bring some new skills back to our conversation, and
45:47
Speaker 3: we started employing some of those some of those techniques,
45:51
Speaker 3: and that's when Greg started to remember his mom's words
45:56
Speaker 3: of advice because they came to him at a time
45:59
Speaker 3: when he really needed them and in Goola. But then
46:02
Speaker 3: once coming home, he was so, Greg, please let me
46:06
Speaker 3: know if I'm not saying this correctly, but he seemed
46:08
Speaker 3: to be so overwhelmed then by the grief that the
46:11
Speaker 3: wisdom had been lost inside the grief. Absolutely, and so
46:16
Speaker 3: what the retelling of the play did was it brought
46:19
Speaker 3: us back to the wisdom. I think the trust in
46:22
Speaker 3: the theater is what led us to being able to
46:25
Speaker 3: cry through those scenes together over and over again, until
46:29
Speaker 3: finally we could do it without that level of grief.
46:32
Speaker 3: Is that fair to say, Greg.
46:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's absolutely. That's right home. And so I could
46:36
Speaker 2: understand when people see that day it was affected by
46:40
Speaker 2: it or moved by that particular part because it is
46:43
Speaker 2: the heart of the play.
46:47
Speaker 1: I've had the pleasure, honestly, the honor of reading the
46:49
Speaker 1: play multiple times at this point, and I always cry
46:56
Speaker 1: at that point because it is so elegant in its honesty.
47:01
Speaker 1: Simplicity's not the right word, it's honesty, but just exquisite
47:05
Speaker 1: in its heartbreak because it's real.
47:09
Speaker 3: And it was because of Greg that I went to
47:11
Speaker 3: Angola for the first time, and since then I have
47:16
Speaker 3: been very involved in prison work. After Greg and I
47:19
Speaker 3: wrote the play, I actually I wrote a book and
47:22
Speaker 3: published a book about my own experience and became a
47:26
Speaker 3: compassion trainer and then ended up going to Angola once
47:30
Speaker 3: a week for many years and working to create a
47:33
Speaker 3: prison wide compassion program.
47:36
Speaker 1: I can't imagine for both of you how incredible that
47:40
Speaker 1: trip together to Angola must have been, because Greg, at
47:44
Speaker 1: that point, you have processed a lot of demons that
47:48
Speaker 1: were inflicted upon you by the experience in terms of
47:52
Speaker 1: working on the play, and Laura, you get to see
47:57
Speaker 1: a place that you have already seen seeing through Greg's
48:01
Speaker 1: eyes with your own. Was it a really emotional experience
48:06
Speaker 1: for you to go there together.
48:09
Speaker 2: I didn't have any personal interest going back to prison.
48:12
Speaker 2: I wanted to go back for Laura's sake, because we
48:17
Speaker 2: had talked so much about that gold or that I
48:21
Speaker 2: know she visualized in her mind, but it's one thing
48:25
Speaker 2: to see it in your mind and then to be
48:30
Speaker 2: standing there. I wanted her to see what I saw
48:34
Speaker 2: while I was there, And I must say that when
48:39
Speaker 2: she got there, she saw it. She saw what I saw.
48:43
Speaker 2: We go in the dormitory and the guy come out.
48:46
Speaker 2: I look around, I don't see lardy. Guy come in
48:48
Speaker 2: and say, man, you with the lady. I'm like, yeah,
48:52
Speaker 2: what she said? Man, she's outside crying, and I know
48:56
Speaker 2: what it was. I know it was. What she saw
48:58
Speaker 2: was just so overwelm. But I knew for me it
49:01
Speaker 2: would draw a lot of memories back and feelings of
49:08
Speaker 2: helplessness when I have to look at the guys that
49:11
Speaker 2: I done slept next to it and work with, held
49:15
Speaker 2: long conversations with, and now suddenly be on the outside
49:22
Speaker 2: and looking at them and dealing with them from the inside.
49:27
Speaker 2: It's just not a part of the story, but it's
49:30
Speaker 2: part of the story that's hit home with me because
49:33
Speaker 2: I can't help. I can't help the situation, you know.
49:36
Speaker 2: I mean, I could just try to be strong, and
49:39
Speaker 2: that's the only advice I could give someone in that situation.
49:44
Speaker 2: It's just devastating for me.
49:47
Speaker 3: There were layers of complexity to it. It was a
49:50
Speaker 3: really pivotal experience for me in terms of being able
49:54
Speaker 3: to write the play, but also in my own personal life.
49:57
Speaker 3: First in terms of the play. Craig had been saying
50:00
Speaker 3: for months and months that the play wasn't just about him,
50:06
Speaker 3: and I kept saying, yeah, but it's really about you.
50:08
Speaker 3: It's not about me, It's not about me, It's about
50:10
Speaker 3: everyone there. And I did not understand that until I
50:15
Speaker 3: went to Angola, when I walked into the dorm and
50:19
Speaker 3: I felt Greg talks about going to perish prison in
50:23
Speaker 3: the smell. For me. When I walked into the dorm,
50:27
Speaker 3: I just felt grief and there was nothing to do
50:32
Speaker 3: but cry. It was so much, And in that moment,
50:37
Speaker 3: I realized, Oh, this play is not about Greg. Greg
50:41
Speaker 3: is one person in this enormous system of both people
50:46
Speaker 3: who are innocent who end up in prison and also
50:49
Speaker 3: people who are responsible for harm who end up in prison.
50:53
Speaker 3: And so for me personally, the person who harmed me,
50:57
Speaker 3: had he been convicted, he in Louisiana would be spending
51:03
Speaker 3: the rest of his life at Angola, at hard labor.
51:06
Speaker 3: And I since working at Angola, I have actually met
51:10
Speaker 3: people whose crimes look very similar to the one that
51:13
Speaker 3: I experienced, who are spending the rest of their lives
51:15
Speaker 3: at Angola. And what I know about every person there
51:19
Speaker 3: is that they are absolutely more than that event. And
51:23
Speaker 3: yet that is not how we talk about people. That
51:27
Speaker 3: is not how we see people. We talk about quote murderers,
51:31
Speaker 3: a person who has taken a life, committed a murder,
51:35
Speaker 3: that does not make them a murderer. It's not ongoing.
51:38
Speaker 3: I have the profound respect for so many of the
51:45
Speaker 3: individuals who I've met over the years there who have
51:48
Speaker 3: grappled with their crime, who are experiencing the grief, the suffering,
51:55
Speaker 3: the shame, the regret, but also the strength and living
51:58
Speaker 3: a life that also includes joy and love and compassion
52:02
Speaker 3: and healing. And I think that if we don't tell
52:05
Speaker 3: the whole complex story, then we're missing the humanness of it.
52:08
Speaker 3: And so that's what I got to see for And also,
52:12
Speaker 3: Angola is beautiful. We don't we forget to mention that
52:16
Speaker 3: it's eighteen thousand acres of rolling farmland. It is gorgeous land.
52:21
Speaker 3: It was a plantation, it's fertile soil. And the juxtaposition
52:25
Speaker 3: of that beauty and the pain that's on that land
52:30
Speaker 3: is really it's just profound. It's staggering.
52:34
Speaker 1: See that that is the emotional connection, that is the
52:38
Speaker 1: complexity of the human experience, and very much you know
52:42
Speaker 1: what I'm hoping to help do with this podcast is
52:49
Speaker 1: to show that emotional tether that we all have that
52:53
Speaker 1: erases the us and the them, because what you just
52:58
Speaker 1: said goes right back to we're all victims of victims.
53:01
Speaker 1: And if you understand that legacy of trauma and that
53:05
Speaker 1: domino effect, that ripple effect it has, it just makes
53:11
Speaker 1: it more possible for us to create a better world
53:16
Speaker 1: with all of the people who were already in it,
53:20
Speaker 1: as opposed to picking and choosing and viewing people as dispensable.
53:25
Speaker 1: Going back to the show, Greg, if you can just
53:28
Speaker 1: explain to me where the name for the play came
53:33
Speaker 1: from and who wing Ding is?
53:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, Wingding with the guy set up next to me,
53:38
Speaker 2: you know, and he was someone that always had some
53:43
Speaker 2: words of wisdom. He always quick to make people laugh,
53:46
Speaker 2: you know. But he used to always get on me,
53:48
Speaker 2: you know, because he figured, ut you smart, you smart,
53:51
Speaker 2: you know, but you fighting and chalk in the water.
53:54
Speaker 2: You know, I had no idea what he was talking about.
53:57
Speaker 2: When he was talking about you grit your tea that night,
54:00
Speaker 2: you sleep with your fistball up. You said it was
54:03
Speaker 2: a signe that you fighting a shark and water, you know,
54:06
Speaker 2: I mean He used to really get on my nerve
54:07
Speaker 2: with that, never fight a sharking water. You got to
54:10
Speaker 2: get him on land. I'm like, man, what did you
54:13
Speaker 2: talking about. I ain't fighting no sharks. He's like, yeah,
54:16
Speaker 2: you fighting the shalksing no water. It just occurred to
54:19
Speaker 2: me one day that I said, Yeah, it's just like
54:23
Speaker 2: Dwayne Dan used to see. You never fight a sharking water,
54:25
Speaker 2: and only you could really get him is to get
54:28
Speaker 2: him on land. And it just stayed with me, you know.
54:31
Speaker 1: Even you explaining how because the play really shows the
54:38
Speaker 1: triumph of the human spirit over adversity, over trauma. But
54:44
Speaker 1: I viewed fighting a shark and water was basically giving
54:49
Speaker 1: into anger. Yeah, that's you're setting yourself up for failure
54:53
Speaker 1: if you give into anger, and that's what you were
54:57
Speaker 1: able to overcome.
55:00
Speaker 2: Lord.
55:00
Speaker 1: Do you see parallels in terms of Greg's giving up
55:06
Speaker 1: on his anger with you basically refusing to identify solely
55:11
Speaker 1: as a victim.
55:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, anger is a dead end. There's nowhere to go.
55:18
Speaker 3: I use the word compassion a lot. Compassion is simply
55:21
Speaker 3: recognizing suffering and being motivated to help. It's not condoning
55:26
Speaker 3: bad behavior. It's not even the same as forgiveness. It's
55:29
Speaker 3: just recognizing suffering and being motivated to help. And that's
55:33
Speaker 3: a visionary stance because you have to see all the
55:36
Speaker 3: way beyond the suffering anger. You can't, there's nowhere to
55:40
Speaker 3: see beyond it. Greg and I both giving ourselves the
55:43
Speaker 3: opportunity to have a little bit of emotional relief. I
55:48
Speaker 3: think that's the essence of our lives, and then we
55:50
Speaker 3: put that into the play. I think Greg and I,
55:53
Speaker 3: you know, we were both kidnapped in different ways. Greg
55:56
Speaker 3: was kidnapped for a really long time. We don't call
55:59
Speaker 3: it that, but that's in fact what it was. He
56:02
Speaker 3: was taken from his home and he was held for
56:04
Speaker 3: twenty seven and a half years. And inside of that
56:08
Speaker 3: twenty seven years, Greg lived a full life of all
56:10
Speaker 3: the emotional highs and lows that come with life. And
56:16
Speaker 3: I hope that that comes through in our conversations and
56:19
Speaker 3: in the play, because we keep coming back to the
56:23
Speaker 3: truth is in the complexity, and as soon as we
56:26
Speaker 3: try to simplify any experience, even the experience of anger,
56:30
Speaker 3: we're in territory that just maybe isn't as as rich
56:36
Speaker 3: as we want it to be.
56:37
Speaker 1: As authentically, what does your friendship mean to both of you,
56:43
Speaker 1: and Greg, I'll let you go first.
56:46
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's been really life changing, you know. I mean,
56:49
Speaker 2: Laura has told me a lot. I've had the opportunity
56:53
Speaker 2: chance to release a lot of positive energy. The healing
56:58
Speaker 2: has been something that was never offered in any way
57:06
Speaker 2: from the people who was responsible for this, and the
57:12
Speaker 2: play is something that I feel real strong about, and
57:17
Speaker 2: I feel that it's a special thing being able to
57:23
Speaker 2: share that experience with people and not bring these emotions.
57:29
Speaker 2: Being free of these emotions, I can express it. I
57:32
Speaker 2: don't get angry with the lady who testified against me,
57:35
Speaker 2: wh when I do the play. I don't get angry
57:38
Speaker 2: with the judge or the police officers. I don't get
57:41
Speaker 2: angry with them as far as I care. They can
57:45
Speaker 2: be setting in the audience. My only purpose here is
57:49
Speaker 2: to help. My purpose is not here to hurt anyone.
57:53
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
57:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, Gosh, Like all great relationships, you know, Greg has
57:59
Speaker 3: lots of roles in my life. He's a friend, he's
58:01
Speaker 3: an amazing collaborator, he's a guide, a teacher, a wise one.
58:06
Speaker 2: You know.
58:06
Speaker 3: We worked really hard for a long time on this
58:09
Speaker 3: and then we put it down. We also weren't in
58:13
Speaker 3: each other's lives as much years have gone by when
58:16
Speaker 3: we have just had a small touch in each other's lives,
58:21
Speaker 3: and interestingly, being invited into this conversation and also being
58:25
Speaker 3: invited to put the play back on in September has
58:29
Speaker 3: brought Greg and I back not just to the conversation
58:33
Speaker 3: about wrongful conviction, but back to each other. So it's
58:36
Speaker 3: really special and wonderful, and yeah, it feels really super good.
58:39
Speaker 3: It feels great.
58:41
Speaker 1: I can't tell you the joy that fills my soul with.
58:45
Speaker 1: But also the fact that you are going to perform
58:49
Speaker 1: the play again this fall. Can you give me details
58:52
Speaker 1: so that we can link to it, and I hope
58:55
Speaker 1: to be there in personal.
58:56
Speaker 3: That would be wonderful. We would love for you to
58:58
Speaker 3: be there.
58:58
Speaker 2: Yes.
58:58
Speaker 3: Yes, The New Orleans The Store Collection is mounting an
59:02
Speaker 3: exhibition about the history of incarceration in Louisiana. It's going
59:05
Speaker 3: to open in September, and Greg has been invited to
59:08
Speaker 3: perform Never Fight a Shark as part of their programming.
59:12
Speaker 3: It'll be the middle of September and Greg will be
59:16
Speaker 3: offering three performances.
59:19
Speaker 2: Yes, Oh, I'm.
59:20
Speaker 1: Going to figure out a way that I can be
59:21
Speaker 1: sitting in that audience.
59:22
Speaker 3: Fantastic.
59:23
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much for your time today. It
59:26
Speaker 1: is such a pleasure to speak with both of you.
59:28
Speaker 3: Thank you so well, Thank you so much, really appreciate it.
59:32
Speaker 1: And in the show description we will include links to
59:34
Speaker 1: both Greg's upcoming performances and a filmed excerpt of Never
59:38
Speaker 1: Fight a Shark and Water, as well as one to
59:41
Speaker 1: Lara Naton's compelling memoir The Jaguar Man. Thank you for
59:55
Speaker 1: listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco. Please support
59:59
Speaker 1: your low Lenoson's organizations and go to the links in
1:00:02
Speaker 1: the episode description to see how you can help. I'd
1:00:05
Speaker 1: like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,
1:00:09
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea,
1:00:13
Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited,
1:00:17
Speaker 1: and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer
1:00:21
Speaker 1: is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Bial, research by
1:00:25
Speaker 1: Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with
1:00:29
Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by
1:00:33
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social
1:00:37
Speaker 1: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.
1:00:41
Speaker 1: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren
1:00:43
Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for
1:00:47
Speaker 1: Good podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one