Latest / Phil and Ted's Sexy Boomer Show / Rhymes, Rhythm, and the Motor City: Poet M.L. Liebler's Detroit

Transcript

Rhymes, Rhythm, and the Motor City: Poet M.L. Liebler's Detroit · Phil and Ted's Sexy Boomer Show

0:00
Welcome
0:01
to
0:01
Phil
0:01
and
0:01
Ted's
0:02
Sexy
0:02
Boomer
0:02
Show.
0:03
I'm
0:03
Ted
0:03
Bonnitt.
0:04
Phil
0:04
Proctor
0:05
is
0:05
somewhere
0:06
out
0:06
there
0:06
in
0:07
radio
0:07
land.
0:08
Hello,
0:08
Phil.
0:09
You
0:09
got
0:09
me.
0:09
There
0:10
you
0:10
are.
0:10
I'm
0:11
talking
0:11
to
0:11
you
0:11
from
0:12
Delaware
0:13
in
0:13
Adele's
0:14
Saucer
0:14
by
0:15
the
0:15
Sea.
0:16
Great.
0:16
All
0:16
right.
0:17
And
0:17
you
0:17
won't
0:17
be
0:17
doing
0:17
the
0:17
show
0:18
from
0:18
the
0:18
bathroom
0:18
today?
0:19
No,
0:19
I'm
0:19
doing
0:20
the
0:20
show
0:20
from
0:20
the
0:20
bedroom
0:21
today.
0:22
Anybody's
0:22
enticed
0:23
by
0:23
that?
0:24
Well,
0:24
again,
0:24
thank
0:25
God
0:25
we
0:25
don't
0:25
have
0:26
cameras.
0:26
Don't
0:27
we?
0:28
Is
0:28
it
0:29
everything
0:29
on
0:30
television
0:30
now?
0:31
Hey,
0:32
let's
0:32
introduce
0:32
our
0:33
guest
0:33
today
0:33
because
0:34
he
0:34
has
0:35
also,
0:36
in
0:36
a
0:36
wonderful
0:36
book
0:37
that
0:37
he's
0:38
written,
0:39
expressed
0:39
certainly
0:40
to
0:40
me,
0:41
the
0:41
arc
0:42
of
0:42
what
0:43
we've
0:43
all
0:43
been
0:44
going
0:44
through
0:45
to
0:45
get
0:46
to
0:46
this
0:46
point.
0:47
You
0:47
know,
0:48
he
0:48
is
0:48
a
0:49
poet,
0:49
he
0:49
is
0:50
a
0:50
musician,
0:51
he's
0:51
an
0:51
activist,
0:52
he's
0:53
a
0:53
teacher,
0:54
and
0:54
an
0:54
all
0:54
around
0:55
mensch.
0:56
And
0:57
do
0:57
we
0:57
mention
0:58
his
0:58
name?
0:59
M.L.
0:59
Liebler.
1:00
M.L.
1:00
Liebler.
1:01
Yeah,
1:03
I
1:03
understand
1:03
M
1:04
stands
1:04
for
1:04
Mike,
1:05
but
1:05
you're
1:05
known
1:05
as
1:05
ML,
1:06
so
1:06
we're
1:06
just
1:06
gonna
1:06
call
1:06
you
1:06
ML.
1:07
My
1:08
wife
1:08
doesn't
1:08
call
1:08
me
1:09
ML
1:09
but
1:10
everybody
1:10
else
1:10
does.
1:11
Well,
1:12
you
1:12
know,
1:12
idiot
1:12
doesn't
1:13
count.
1:13
Okay.
1:14
Yeah,
1:14
right,
1:14
right.
1:17
You
1:17
are
1:17
internationally
1:18
known,
1:18
you're
1:19
widely
1:19
published
1:20
Detroit
1:20
poet,
1:21
you're
1:21
a
1:21
university
1:22
professor,
1:22
you're
1:22
a
1:23
literary
1:23
arts
1:23
activist,
1:24
you're
1:24
an
1:25
arts
1:25
organizer,
1:26
and
1:26
you
1:26
just
1:27
released
1:27
your
1:27
memoir
1:28
called
1:28
Hound
1:28
Dog,
1:29
A
1:29
Poet'
1:30
of
1:31
Rock,
1:31
Revolution
1:31
and
1:32
Redemption.
1:33
And
1:33
it's
1:33
about
1:33
growing
1:33
up
1:34
in
1:34
Detroit
1:34
and
1:34
discovering
1:35
the
1:35
world
1:35
through
1:36
your
1:36
love
1:36
of
1:37
music.
1:38
I
1:38
just
1:38
finished
1:39
reading
1:39
the
1:39
book
1:39
about
1:40
an
1:40
hour
1:40
ago
1:41
and
1:41
I
1:42
loved
1:42
it.
1:42
Detroit
1:43
is
1:43
such
1:43
a
1:44
fascinating
1:44
story
1:44
because
1:45
it
1:45
epitomized
1:46
the
1:46
heyday
1:47
of
1:47
a
1:47
robust
1:48
post
1:48
war
1:48
empire
1:49
where
1:50
the
1:50
middle
1:50
class
1:50
was
1:51
actually
1:51
growing
1:52
in
1:52
wealth
1:52
at
1:52
a
1:52
faster
1:53
rate
1:53
than
1:53
the
1:53
wealth
1:54
class,
1:54
which
1:54
of
1:55
course,
1:55
that
1:55
was
1:56
put
1:56
to
1:56
a
1:56
stop,
1:57
Right?
1:57
Absolutely.
1:58
ML,
1:59
man,
1:59
thanks
1:59
so
2:00
much
2:00
for
2:00
coming
2:00
on
2:00
the
2:00
show,
2:01
man.
2:01
It's
2:01
a
2:02
pleasure.
2:02
It's
2:02
a
2:02
pleasure
2:03
meeting
2:03
both
2:03
of
2:04
you
2:04
guys.
2:04
Yeah,
2:05
yeah,
2:05
I
2:05
listen
2:06
to
2:06
the
2:06
podcast.
2:07
I
2:07
know
2:07
what's
2:07
happening.
2:08
Uh,
2:08
oh,
2:08
all
2:08
right.
2:09
We
2:09
did
2:09
it
2:09
in
2:10
Detroit.
2:11
If
2:11
you
2:11
move
2:11
the
2:12
letters
2:12
of
2:12
Detroit
2:12
around,
2:13
it
2:13
spells
2:13
rioted.
2:16
And
2:16
you
2:16
did.
2:16
You
2:17
had
2:17
your
2:17
fare
2:17
of
2:18
civil
2:18
unrest
2:19
there
2:20
because
2:20
you
2:21
have
2:21
good
2:21
values.
2:22
People
2:23
of
2:23
the
2:23
Midwest,
2:23
of
2:24
which
2:24
I
2:24
am
2:24
one.
2:25
When
2:25
Fireside
2:26
Theater
2:26
was
2:26
touring
2:27
and
2:27
when
2:27
Procter
2:28
and
2:28
Bergman
2:28
were
2:29
touring
2:29
extensively,
2:30
our
2:31
very
2:31
best
2:31
audiences
2:32
were
2:32
always
2:32
in
2:32
the
2:33
Midwest
2:34
because
2:34
the
2:34
Midwest
2:35
has
2:36
a
2:36
built
2:37
in
2:37
sense
2:37
of
2:38
the
2:38
surreal.
2:39
Yes,
2:40
that's
2:40
right.
2:41
What
2:41
makes
2:41
it
2:41
surreal,
2:43
it
2:43
might
2:44
just
2:44
be
2:44
the
2:44
drinking
2:45
and
2:45
the
2:45
cigarettes,
2:46
but
2:48
I
2:48
remember
2:48
when
2:48
I
2:49
grew
2:49
up
2:49
sitting
2:50
around
2:50
the
2:50
table
2:51
with
2:51
my
2:51
Relatives
2:52
in
2:52
the
2:52
kitchen.
2:53
And
2:53
everybody
2:54
was
2:54
drinking
2:54
and
2:54
smoking
2:55
and
2:55
telling
2:56
funny,
2:57
surrealistic
2:58
jokes.
2:59
I
2:59
don't
2:59
know
3:00
what
3:00
causes
3:00
that.
3:01
Maybe
3:01
it's
3:02
because
3:02
it's
3:03
the
3:03
farmland.
3:04
It's
3:04
a
3:05
land
3:05
of
3:06
reality,
3:07
the
3:07
Midwest.
3:08
It's
3:08
a
3:08
hard
3:08
scrabble
3:09
life.
3:09
In
3:10
many
3:10
ways,
3:11
it's
3:11
a
3:11
worker's
3:12
paradise.
3:13
In
3:13
many
3:13
ways,
3:14
it's
3:15
living
3:15
off
3:15
the
3:16
earth
3:16
and
3:17
appreciating
3:18
godliness
3:20
in
3:20
its
3:20
purest
3:21
form,
3:21
which
3:21
is,
3:22
you
3:22
know,
3:22
if
3:22
it
3:22
rains
3:23
too
3:23
much,
3:24
you're
3:24
not
3:24
going
3:24
to
3:24
have
3:25
good
3:25
crops
3:25
that
3:26
year.
3:26
Well,
3:26
that
3:27
creates
3:27
a
3:27
certain
3:27
degree
3:28
of,
3:29
I
3:29
don't
3:29
know,
3:29
of
3:30
distance.
3:31
And
3:31
I
3:31
think
3:32
the
3:32
only
3:32
way
3:32
that
3:32
you
3:32
can
3:33
respond
3:33
to
3:34
it
3:34
is
3:34
through
3:35
laughter,
3:36
really,
3:36
because
3:38
how
3:38
else
3:38
can
3:39
I
3:39
explain
3:39
it?
3:39
All
3:40
I
3:40
know
3:40
is
3:40
that
3:41
was
3:41
and
3:42
still
3:42
is
3:43
the
3:43
kind
3:43
of
3:43
attitude
3:44
that
3:44
I'd
3:44
run
3:44
into
3:45
in
3:46
the
3:46
Midwest
3:46
of
3:47
acceptance
3:48
and
3:48
lightheartedness
3:50
about
3:50
the
3:51
reality,
3:51
the
3:52
harsh
3:52
realities
3:52
of
3:52
life.
3:53
God
3:53
knows,
3:54
in
3:54
your
3:54
book
3:55
you
3:56
lived
3:56
through
3:57
it.
3:58
Besides
3:58
the
3:59
fact
3:59
that
3:59
you
3:59
have
3:59
an
3:59
amazing
4:01
power
4:01
of
4:02
recollection
4:03
and
4:04
detail,
4:05
which
4:05
I
4:05
found
4:06
absolutely
4:07
amazing
4:07
and
4:08
wonderful,
4:09
you
4:10
went
4:10
through
4:10
so
4:11
many
4:11
spiritual
4:12
and
4:12
mental
4:13
and
4:13
physical
4:14
changes
4:15
in
4:15
your
4:16
life.
4:17
And
4:17
to
4:17
me,
4:18
that's
4:18
a
4:18
very
4:18
Midwestern
4:19
kind
4:19
of
4:20
experience.
4:21
I
4:21
think
4:21
you're
4:21
right.
4:21
I
4:22
think
4:22
you're
4:22
absolutely
4:22
right.
4:23
What
4:23
makes
4:23
a
4:24
poet
4:24
from
4:24
Detroit?
4:25
Well,
4:26
you
4:26
know,
4:26
my
4:26
story's
4:27
a
4:27
little
4:27
bit
4:28
different
4:28
than
4:29
probably
4:29
a
4:29
lot
4:30
of
4:30
poets
4:30
stories.
4:31
I
4:31
mean,
4:32
here's
4:32
my
4:32
recollection
4:34
is
4:34
when
4:34
I
4:35
was
4:35
in
4:35
the
4:35
second
4:36
grade,
4:37
I
4:37
used
4:37
to
4:38
scribble,
4:38
you
4:39
know,
4:39
my,
4:40
I
4:40
guess,
4:40
feelings
4:41
in
4:41
my
4:42
textbooks.
4:43
And
4:43
I
4:43
was
4:43
raised
4:44
by
4:44
my
4:44
grandparents
4:45
who
4:45
were
4:46
working
4:46
class
4:46
grandparents.
4:47
And,
4:48
you
4:48
know,
4:49
the
4:49
teacher
4:49
called
4:50
and
4:50
said,
4:50
you
4:51
gotta
4:51
come
4:51
in.
4:51
You
4:52
know,
4:52
this
4:52
kid
4:53
is
4:53
writing
4:54
stuff
4:54
in
4:54
his
4:54
book
4:55
and
4:55
it's.
4:56
It's
4:56
not
4:57
normal
4:58
stuff
4:58
that
4:58
he's
4:59
writing.
4:59
So
5:00
we
5:00
got
5:00
to
5:00
talk
5:00
about
5:01
it.
5:01
And
5:01
so
5:01
that
5:02
happened.
5:03
That's
5:03
how
5:03
I
5:03
started.
5:04
And
5:04
then
5:04
when
5:04
I
5:04
got
5:05
into
5:05
fifth
5:05
grade,
5:05
I
5:06
had
5:06
a
5:06
great.
5:06
I
5:06
was
5:06
just
5:07
talking
5:07
about
5:07
it
5:07
in
5:07
my
5:08
class
5:08
yesterday
5:08
at
5:09
Wayne
5:09
State.
5:10
I
5:10
had
5:10
this
5:10
great
5:11
teacher
5:11
that
5:11
I
5:12
really
5:12
didn't
5:12
realize
5:13
how
5:14
great
5:14
it
5:14
was.
5:14
He
5:15
was
5:15
influenced
5:16
by
5:16
art
5:17
and
5:17
laughter
5:18
and
5:18
music.
5:19
And
5:20
I
5:20
went
5:20
back.
5:21
I
5:21
was
5:21
in
5:21
his
5:22
class
5:22
when
5:22
Kennedy
5:23
was
5:23
assassinated.
5:25
And
5:25
I
5:25
went
5:25
back
5:25
to
5:26
see
5:26
him
5:26
on
5:26
the
5:27
25th
5:27
anniversary.
5:28
I
5:29
stopped
5:29
in
5:29
and
5:30
he
5:30
invited
5:30
me
5:31
in
5:31
the
5:31
classroom.
5:32
He
5:32
was
5:32
still
5:33
asking
5:33
after
5:33
all
5:34
those
5:34
years,
5:34
how's
5:34
your
5:35
grandparents?
5:35
And
5:36
all
5:36
that
5:36
sort
5:36
of
5:36
thing.
5:37
Of
5:37
course,
5:37
they
5:38
had
5:38
been
5:38
dead
5:39
for
5:39
a
5:39
long
5:39
time.
5:39
But
5:41
I
5:41
went
5:41
in
5:41
and
5:42
I
5:42
saw
5:42
all
5:43
this
5:43
art
5:43
hanging
5:44
from
5:44
the
5:44
ceiling,
5:45
on
5:45
the
5:45
windows,
5:46
on
5:46
his
5:46
desk.
5:47
The
5:48
room
5:48
did
5:48
not
5:48
look
5:48
Like
5:49
a
5:49
typical
5:50
public
5:50
school
5:50
classroom.
5:51
It
5:51
looked.
5:52
It
5:52
looked
5:52
much
5:53
more
5:53
casual,
5:54
and
5:54
it
5:55
was
5:55
filled
5:55
with
5:55
art.
5:56
And
5:56
I
5:56
thought,
5:57
son
5:57
of
5:57
a
5:57
gun,
5:57
this
5:58
guy
5:58
probably
5:59
changed
6:00
everything
6:00
for
6:01
me,
6:02
because
6:02
that's
6:02
where
6:02
I
6:03
learned
6:03
what
6:03
a
6:03
poem
6:03
was.
6:04
He
6:04
pulled
6:04
this
6:05
book
6:05
out
6:06
that
6:06
had
6:06
a
6:06
pelican
6:07
on
6:08
a
6:08
post
6:09
looking
6:09
out
6:09
at
6:09
the
6:10
sea,
6:10
and
6:11
he
6:11
said,
6:11
today
6:11
we're
6:12
going
6:12
to
6:12
read
6:12
the
6:13
Raven
6:13
by
6:13
Edgar
6:14
Allan
6:14
Poe.
6:15
Ah,
6:16
yes.
6:16
And
6:16
I
6:16
said,
6:17
oh.
6:17
And
6:18
when
6:18
I
6:18
looked
6:18
at
6:19
it
6:19
physically,
6:20
I
6:20
thought
6:21
that
6:21
was
6:21
the
6:21
first
6:21
time
6:21
I
6:22
noticed
6:23
that
6:25
it
6:25
had
6:25
a
6:25
lot
6:25
of
6:26
white
6:26
space
6:26
around
6:27
it.
6:28
And
6:28
whatever
6:29
I
6:29
was
6:29
scribbling
6:30
in
6:30
my
6:31
second
6:31
grade
6:31
textbook
6:32
had
6:32
white
6:33
space
6:33
around
6:33
it.
6:34
So
6:34
that's
6:35
when
6:35
I
6:35
knew,
6:35
well,
6:36
this
6:36
is
6:36
poetry.
6:37
So
6:37
I
6:37
don't
6:37
know
6:37
what
6:38
that
6:38
means.
6:38
I
6:38
mean,
6:38
my
6:39
grandparents
6:40
were
6:40
not
6:41
necessarily
6:42
literate
6:42
people.
6:43
Very
6:43
smart,
6:43
but
6:44
not
6:44
literate.
6:45
They
6:45
didn't
6:45
take
6:45
me
6:46
to
6:46
the
6:46
library.
6:46
In
6:47
fact,
6:47
I
6:47
didn't
6:47
even
6:47
start
6:48
seeing
6:48
Disney
6:48
movies
6:49
till
6:49
I
6:49
had
6:49
kids.
6:51
You
6:51
know,
6:51
I
6:51
saw
6:51
Bambi
6:52
and
6:52
all
6:52
the
6:52
movies
6:53
I'd
6:53
heard
6:53
about,
6:54
I
6:54
didn't
6:54
seem
6:55
that
6:55
interested
6:55
in
6:56
then.
6:56
But
6:56
it
6:56
was
6:56
kind
6:57
of
6:57
nice
6:57
to
6:57
see
6:57
it
6:58
from
6:59
that
6:59
perspective.
7:00
That's
7:00
how
7:00
it
7:00
started.
7:01
You
7:01
were
7:01
very
7:02
close
7:02
to
7:02
your
7:02
grandparents.
7:03
They
7:03
raised
7:03
you.
7:04
They
7:04
did.
7:05
You
7:05
write
7:05
so
7:06
lovingly
7:06
about
7:07
your
7:07
grandmother,
7:08
how
7:09
cool
7:09
she
7:09
was.
7:10
Oh,
7:10
she
7:10
was
7:10
great,
7:11
you
7:11
know,
7:12
and
7:12
at
7:12
the
7:12
time,
7:12
I
7:12
thought
7:13
she
7:13
was
7:14
a
7:14
grandma.
7:15
But
7:15
in
7:15
hindsight,
7:16
now
7:16
she
7:16
was
7:17
in
7:17
her
7:17
40s,
7:18
and
7:18
she
7:19
really
7:19
loved
7:20
Elvis
7:20
Presley
7:22
and
7:22
what
7:22
I
7:22
always
7:22
say
7:23
is
7:23
early
7:23
Elvis.
7:24
And
7:24
that's
7:25
what
7:25
she
7:25
turned
7:25
me
7:25
onto.
7:27
That.
7:27
And
7:28
she
7:28
had
7:28
the
7:29
Ink
7:29
Spots
7:29
and
7:30
Ella
7:30
Fitzgerald
7:31
and
7:31
the
7:32
Harmonic
7:32
Cats.
7:33
I'm
7:34
sure
7:34
Firestein
7:34
must
7:35
have
7:35
listened
7:35
to
7:35
Harmonic
7:36
Hats,
7:36
of
7:37
course.
7:37
Absolutely.
7:39
I
7:39
was
7:39
raised
7:40
to
7:41
a
7:41
great
7:41
extent
7:41
by
7:41
my
7:42
grandparents
7:42
in
7:42
Goshen
7:43
as
7:44
well.
7:44
And
7:44
my
7:44
grandfather
7:45
was
7:46
a
7:46
laborer
7:47
at
7:47
company
7:48
that
7:48
his
7:48
father
7:49
created
7:49
a
7:50
milk
7:50
condensing
7:51
plant,
7:51
and
7:52
he
7:52
used
7:52
to
7:52
go
7:52
to
7:52
work
7:53
every
7:53
day,
7:53
even
7:54
though
7:54
he
7:54
basically
7:55
owned
7:55
the
7:56
plant.
7:57
And
7:57
I
7:57
had
7:58
a
7:58
similar
7:58
kind
7:58
of
7:58
wonderful
7:59
existence
8:00
with.
8:01
I
8:01
guess
8:02
the
8:02
main
8:02
difference
8:02
was
8:03
you
8:03
had
8:03
two
8:04
siblings.
8:05
Two
8:05
or
8:05
three
8:05
siblings.
8:06
I
8:06
had
8:06
a
8:06
whole
8:07
support
8:07
group
8:07
of
8:08
cousins.
8:09
I
8:09
had
8:10
a
8:10
bunch
8:10
of
8:10
siblings
8:11
that
8:11
I
8:11
really
8:11
didn't
8:12
know.
8:13
Yeah,
8:13
my
8:14
birth
8:14
mother
8:15
must
8:15
have
8:15
been
8:15
married
8:16
five
8:16
or
8:16
six
8:16
times
8:17
or
8:17
something
8:17
and
8:18
seemingly
8:19
had
8:19
a
8:19
kid
8:19
with
8:20
each
8:20
one.
8:21
I
8:21
know
8:21
some
8:22
of
8:22
them,
8:22
but
8:22
I
8:23
don't
8:23
really
8:23
know
8:23
them
8:24
per
8:24
se.
8:25
And
8:26
why
8:26
would
8:26
I?
8:26
I
8:26
loved
8:27
living
8:27
with
8:27
my
8:27
grandparents.
8:28
You
8:28
were
8:29
a
8:29
product
8:29
of
8:29
teenage
8:29
pregnancy,
8:30
correct?
8:30
That's
8:31
right.
8:31
When
8:31
they
8:32
moved
8:32
in
8:32
the
8:33
40s
8:33
to
8:34
the
8:34
suburbs,
8:35
the
8:36
reason
8:36
people
8:36
were
8:37
leaving
8:37
for
8:37
the
8:37
suburbs
8:38
is
8:38
because
8:39
Detroit,
8:39
you
8:39
Couldn't
8:40
find
8:40
housing
8:41
in
8:41
Detroit.
8:42
There
8:42
were
8:43
so
8:43
many
8:43
people.
8:43
I
8:43
think
8:44
there
8:44
were
8:44
2
8:44
million
8:45
people
8:45
at
8:45
one
8:45
point.
8:46
And
8:46
there
8:46
wasn't
8:47
enough
8:47
housing.
8:48
So
8:48
the
8:48
working
8:49
class
8:49
people
8:49
who
8:50
were
8:50
making
8:50
money
8:51
working
8:52
on
8:52
the
8:52
line
8:53
were
8:54
able
8:54
to
8:54
afford
8:55
to
8:55
buy
8:55
their
8:56
own
8:56
place
8:56
that
8:56
had
8:57
a
8:57
backyard
8:58
and
8:58
a
8:58
driveway.
8:59
And
8:59
you
9:00
know,
9:00
they're
9:01
all
9:01
working
9:01
class
9:02
houses.
9:02
In
9:03
hindsight,
9:03
when
9:03
you
9:04
see
9:04
no
9:05
basements,
9:05
you
9:05
know,
9:06
plat
9:06
that
9:06
kind
9:07
of
9:07
thing.
9:08
This
9:08
is
9:08
the
9:08
peak
9:08
of
9:08
the
9:09
union
9:09
movement
9:10
in
9:10
America.
9:10
These
9:11
are
9:11
all
9:11
working
9:12
class
9:12
people
9:12
who
9:12
were
9:13
union
9:13
working
9:14
in
9:14
assembly
9:15
lines
9:15
for
9:15
all
9:15
the
9:16
automotive
9:16
manufacturers.
9:17
And
9:17
everybody
9:18
that
9:18
lived
9:18
around
9:18
there
9:19
was
9:19
from
9:19
that
9:20
kind
9:20
of
9:20
background
9:21
too.
9:21
And
9:22
this
9:22
is
9:22
something
9:22
too,
9:23
that
9:23
Phil
9:24
probably
9:24
knows
9:25
from
9:25
grandparents.
9:26
And
9:27
it
9:27
was
9:27
true
9:27
in
9:27
the
9:27
60s
9:28
too.
9:29
Grandparents
9:30
were
9:30
a
9:30
lot
9:30
closer
9:31
to
9:31
us
9:32
in
9:32
our
9:33
thinking
9:34
than
9:34
what
9:35
I
9:35
called
9:35
the
9:35
World
9:35
War
9:36
II
9:36
parents.
9:37
So,
9:38
you
9:38
know,
9:38
who
9:38
were
9:39
like
9:39
bulldogs
9:40
and
9:40
you
9:40
know,
9:41
pro
9:42
the
9:42
war
9:42
in
9:43
Vietnam
9:43
and
9:43
all
9:44
that
9:44
stuff
9:44
where
9:44
grandparents
9:45
were
9:45
like,
9:46
no,
9:46
you
9:47
know,
9:47
we've
9:48
been
9:48
through
9:48
this
9:48
stuff
9:49
before.
9:49
This
9:50
isn't
9:50
what
9:50
we're
9:50
about.
9:51
Good
9:51
point.
9:52
Yeah.
9:53
And
9:53
even,
9:53
you
9:54
know,
9:54
my
9:54
grandfather
9:54
was
9:55
in
9:55
the
9:55
1937
9:56
sit
9:56
down
9:57
strike
9:58
at
9:58
Dodge,
9:59
Maine,
9:59
which
10:00
was
10:00
the
10:00
first
10:00
place
10:01
in
10:01
Detroit
10:01
that
10:02
it
10:02
hit.
10:03
And
10:03
they
10:03
were
10:03
locked
10:04
in
10:04
there
10:04
for
10:04
a
10:04
long
10:04
time.
10:05
So
10:05
he
10:05
was
10:05
a,
10:05
he
10:06
was
10:06
a
10:06
strong
10:06
union
10:07
man.
10:07
He
10:07
wasn't
10:07
a
10:07
labor
10:08
activist
10:09
or
10:09
anything
10:09
like
10:09
that.
10:10
He
10:10
just
10:10
was
10:10
a
10:11
working
10:11
class
10:11
guy
10:12
who
10:12
believed
10:13
in
10:13
a
10:13
decent
10:14
wage
10:14
for
10:15
what
10:15
he
10:15
did
10:16
and
10:16
benefits
10:17
and
10:17
some
10:17
security.
10:18
Dodge
10:19
Bain,
10:19
you
10:20
know,
10:20
was
10:20
the
10:20
first
10:20
one
10:21
here.
10:21
And
10:21
then,
10:22
you
10:22
know,
10:22
I
10:22
teach
10:23
labor
10:23
studies.
10:23
This
10:24
is
10:24
my
10:24
little
10:24
side
10:25
gig
10:25
I've
10:25
been
10:25
doing
10:26
for
10:26
35
10:26
years
10:27
teaching
10:27
labor
10:28
studies
10:28
at
10:29
Wayne
10:29
State.
10:29
I'm
10:30
in
10:30
the
10:30
English
10:30
department
10:31
formally,
10:31
but
10:33
I
10:33
got
10:33
hooked
10:33
up
10:33
with
10:34
them
10:35
and
10:36
been
10:36
teaching
10:36
that.
10:36
And
10:37
as
10:37
time
10:37
went
10:37
on,
10:38
I
10:38
found
10:38
the
10:38
students
10:39
who
10:39
many
10:39
of
10:40
them
10:40
at
10:40
first
10:40
worked
10:40
in
10:41
the
10:41
factories
10:41
and
10:42
they
10:42
were
10:42
hoping
10:42
maybe
10:43
to
10:43
get
10:43
a
10:43
promotion
10:44
or
10:44
something
10:44
to
10:45
a
10:45
negotiator
10:46
or
10:47
a
10:47
shop
10:47
steward,
10:50
but
10:50
they
10:50
didn't
10:50
know
10:51
their
10:51
own
10:51
history.
10:52
So
10:53
I
10:53
was
10:53
doing
10:53
labor
10:54
through
10:54
the
10:54
arts
10:56
and
10:56
then
10:57
I
10:57
switched
10:57
it
10:57
to
10:58
just
10:58
labor
10:59
history.
10:59
Cause
10:59
they
10:59
didn't
11:00
know
11:00
that
11:00
stuff.
11:01
They
11:01
were
11:01
like,
11:01
oh,
11:02
that
11:02
happened.
11:03
Wow.
11:04
The
11:04
50s
11:04
and
11:05
60s.
11:05
Detroit
11:06
is
11:06
unimaginable
11:07
to
11:09
kids
11:09
who
11:09
are
11:09
grown
11:10
into
11:10
desolation.
11:11
Yes,
11:12
absolutely.
11:13
And
11:14
now
11:14
we're
11:14
far
11:14
away
11:15
from
11:15
it.
11:15
And
11:16
like
11:16
I
11:16
used
11:17
to
11:17
in
11:17
my
11:17
classes,
11:18
I've
11:18
been
11:18
at
11:18
Wayne
11:19
since
11:19
80
11:20
and
11:20
I
11:20
used
11:21
to
11:21
ask
11:21
my
11:21
class,
11:22
how
11:22
many
11:22
of
11:22
you,
11:22
you
11:23
know,
11:23
your
11:23
parents
11:24
work
11:24
in
11:25
a
11:25
factory?
11:26
And
11:26
a
11:26
lot
11:26
of
11:27
hands
11:27
would
11:27
go
11:27
up
11:28
if
11:28
I
11:28
asked
11:28
that
11:28
question.
11:29
And
11:29
I
11:29
have
11:30
since
11:31
maybe
11:31
one
11:31
or
11:32
two
11:32
kids
11:32
raised
11:32
their
11:33
hand.
11:33
You
11:34
wrote
11:34
in
11:34
your
11:34
book.
11:34
As
11:34
I
11:35
wander
11:35
through
11:35
the
11:35
tapestry
11:36
of
11:36
life,
11:36
I
11:36
am
11:36
transported
11:37
to
11:37
a
11:37
time
11:37
when
11:37
the
11:38
very
11:38
essence
11:38
of
11:38
America
11:39
shimmered
11:39
with
11:40
hope
11:40
before
11:40
the
11:40
shadows
11:41
of
11:41
Vietnam
11:42
loomed
11:42
large.
11:42
I
11:43
recall
11:43
a
11:43
somber
11:44
grayness
11:44
in
11:44
the
11:44
1950s,
11:45
an
11:45
era
11:45
painted
11:46
in
11:46
stark
11:46
contrasts,
11:47
much
11:47
like
11:48
the
11:48
black
11:48
and
11:48
white
11:48
television
11:49
shows
11:49
that
11:49
filled
11:50
our
11:50
screens
11:50
before
11:50
1965.
11:52
Yes.
11:53
And
11:53
you
11:53
talked
11:53
about
11:53
the
11:54
rebirth
11:54
of
11:54
America,
11:55
marked
11:55
by
11:55
the
11:55
election
11:55
of
11:56
our
11:56
youngest
11:56
President
11:57
Kennedy
11:57
ever.
11:59
And
11:59
then
11:59
we
11:59
were
11:59
plunged
12:00
into
12:00
sorrow
12:00
with
12:01
the
12:01
tragic
12:01
assassination
12:02
and
12:03
a
12:03
string.
12:03
Of
12:03
assassinations
12:04
that
12:04
followed.
12:05
Yes,
12:05
which
12:06
completely
12:07
transformed
12:08
our
12:08
future.
12:09
I
12:09
was
12:09
telling
12:10
the
12:10
students
12:10
that
12:10
yesterday
12:11
because
12:11
I
12:12
talked
12:12
about
12:12
Mr.
12:12
Wadke,
12:13
the
12:13
fifth
12:14
grade
12:14
teacher,
12:15
and
12:15
I
12:15
went
12:16
back
12:16
to
12:16
visit
12:16
him.
12:17
And
12:17
I
12:18
remember
12:18
in
12:18
the
12:18
fifth
12:19
grade
12:19
that
12:20
when
12:20
that
12:21
happened,
12:23
the
12:23
only
12:23
thing
12:23
we
12:24
could
12:24
relate
12:24
to
12:24
is
12:24
it
12:25
happened
12:25
to
12:25
Lincoln,
12:26
which
12:26
was
12:26
about
12:27
100
12:28
years
12:28
earlier.
12:29
And
12:29
we
12:29
were
12:30
kids
12:30
in
12:30
line
12:31
waiting
12:31
for
12:32
the
12:32
bus
12:32
and
12:32
saying,
12:33
wow,
12:33
I
12:33
wonder
12:34
if
12:34
they
12:34
used
12:34
machine
12:35
guns
12:35
this
12:36
time
12:36
or
12:37
how
12:37
did
12:37
it.
12:37
Wow,
12:38
this
12:38
is
12:38
terrible.
12:39
And
12:39
the
12:39
whole
12:40
nation
12:40
really
12:40
was
12:41
plunged
12:41
into
12:42
darkness.
12:43
It
12:43
was
12:43
shock,
12:44
totally.
12:45
You
12:45
talked
12:46
about
12:46
your
12:46
childhood
12:47
was
12:47
filled
12:48
with
12:48
vibrant
12:48
events
12:49
woven
12:49
in
12:49
the
12:49
warmth
12:50
of
12:50
my
12:50
grandma
12:50
and
12:50
grandpa.
12:51
The
12:52
timeless
12:52
tunes
12:52
of
12:53
Elvis,
12:53
Ricky
12:53
Nelson,
12:54
Dion
12:54
echoing
12:55
in
12:55
the
12:55
background,
12:55
and
12:55
the
12:55
delightful
12:56
aroma
12:56
of
12:56
pizza
12:57
filling
12:57
the
12:57
air.
12:58
What
12:58
child
12:58
could
12:59
imagine
12:59
such
12:59
a
13:00
joyful
13:00
existence
13:00
in
13:01
the
13:01
late
13:01
50s
13:01
and
13:02
60s?
13:03
That
13:03
was
13:03
the
13:03
working
13:04
class,
13:04
what
13:05
we
13:05
did.
13:05
And
13:06
Phil,
13:06
probably
13:06
again,
13:07
because
13:07
he's
13:07
from
13:08
this
13:08
part
13:08
of
13:08
the
13:09
world.
13:09
Saturday
13:10
night
13:10
you
13:11
had
13:11
a
13:11
bath.
13:12
And
13:13
after
13:13
the
13:14
bath
13:14
they
13:14
took
13:15
me
13:15
to
13:15
this
13:16
bar,
13:16
although
13:17
it's
13:17
not
13:17
what
13:18
it
13:18
sounds
13:18
like.
13:18
There
13:19
was
13:19
a
13:19
famous.
13:19
We
13:20
had
13:20
this
13:20
famous
13:21
pizza
13:21
here
13:21
called
13:22
Deep
13:22
Dish
13:22
Pizza.
13:24
And
13:24
there
13:24
was
13:24
one
13:25
place
13:25
on
13:25
Gratiot
13:26
that
13:26
made
13:26
it.
13:27
And
13:27
they
13:27
would
13:27
take
13:28
me
13:28
there
13:29
on
13:29
Saturday
13:29
after
13:30
my
13:30
bath,
13:31
and
13:31
they
13:31
would
13:31
each
13:32
have
13:32
a
13:32
shell
13:32
of
13:33
beer.
13:33
Kids
13:34
don't
13:34
even
13:34
know
13:34
what
13:34
a
13:34
shell
13:35
is
13:35
anymore.
13:36
And
13:36
then
13:36
a
13:36
pizza.
13:37
And
13:37
that
13:38
was.
13:38
And
13:38
as
13:39
long
13:39
as
13:39
you
13:39
did
13:39
it
13:39
before
13:40
9
13:40
o',
13:40
clock,
13:40
you
13:40
could
13:41
bring
13:41
a
13:41
kid
13:41
in.
13:42
So
13:42
we
13:43
did
13:43
that.
13:43
And
13:43
that
13:44
was
13:44
our
13:44
Saturday
13:44
night.
13:45
If
13:45
you
13:45
drank
13:46
too
13:46
much,
13:46
were
13:46
you
13:46
shell
13:47
shocked?
13:49
What
13:49
is
13:49
a
13:49
shell
13:50
of
13:50
beer?
13:51
It
13:51
was
13:51
like
13:51
about
13:53
a
13:53
half
13:54
of
13:54
a
13:54
normal
13:54
glass
13:55
that
13:55
people
13:56
drink
13:56
now.
13:56
What
13:56
do
13:56
they
13:56
drink
13:57
now?
13:57
The
13:57
pints.
13:58
Glasses.
13:58
About
13:59
a
13:59
half
13:59
a
13:59
pint.
14:00
Okay.
14:01
They
14:01
only
14:01
had
14:01
one,
14:02
you
14:02
know,
14:03
that
14:03
was
14:03
all
14:04
they
14:04
had.
14:04
And
14:04
then
14:04
we
14:05
left.
14:05
When
14:05
you
14:05
talk
14:06
about
14:06
this
14:06
with
14:06
your
14:07
students
14:07
and
14:07
all
14:08
this
14:08
idealized
14:09
life
14:09
you
14:10
wrote.
14:10
And
14:10
this
14:10
is
14:11
the
14:11
last
14:11
thing
14:11
I
14:11
promise
14:11
I'm
14:12
gonna
14:12
read.
14:12
Cause
14:12
it's
14:13
so
14:13
good
14:13
this
14:13
is
14:13
in
14:13
the
14:13
epilogue.
14:14
I
14:14
appreciate
14:15
it.
14:15
As
14:15
we
14:16
moved
14:16
into
14:16
the
14:16
late
14:16
60s,
14:17
my
14:17
reality
14:17
became
14:18
a
14:18
bittersweet
14:19
relationship
14:19
with
14:19
the
14:20
America
14:20
I
14:20
had
14:20
known.
14:21
Still,
14:21
we
14:21
pushed
14:22
on
14:22
to
14:22
find
14:22
ourselves
14:23
in
14:23
the
14:23
21st
14:23
century,
14:24
regressing
14:24
to
14:25
the
14:25
old
14:25
dark
14:25
ages
14:26
of
14:26
America
14:26
filled
14:26
with
14:27
hate,
14:27
sleepwalking
14:28
into
14:28
authoritarianism.
14:29
Yeah,
14:30
I
14:30
became
14:31
politicized
14:32
at
14:32
a
14:33
pretty
14:33
young
14:33
age
14:34
as
14:34
I
14:35
talk
14:35
about
14:35
in
14:36
there,
14:36
and
14:37
it
14:37
was
14:37
because
14:37
of
14:38
Vietnam.
14:38
The
14:39
kid
14:39
about
14:39
three
14:40
doors
14:40
down
14:40
from
14:41
us
14:41
was
14:42
killed
14:42
in
14:42
Vietnam.
14:43
He
14:43
had
14:43
just
14:43
graduated
14:44
high
14:44
school
14:45
in
14:46
June,
14:47
and
14:47
by
14:47
December,
14:48
he
14:48
was
14:48
dead.
14:49
And
14:49
that
14:49
was
14:49
early
14:50
on,
14:50
right?
14:50
65.
14:51
Yeah,
14:52
it
14:52
was
14:52
65.
14:53
And
14:54
it
14:54
was
14:54
like,
14:54
wow,
14:55
you
14:55
know,
14:56
And.
14:56
And
14:56
the
14:56
thing
14:56
that
14:57
really
14:57
bothered
14:57
me
14:57
because
14:58
I
14:58
did
14:58
love
14:58
my
14:58
grandma
14:59
so
14:59
much,
14:59
is
15:00
that
15:00
his
15:00
mother
15:01
became
15:02
very
15:02
sickly.
15:03
And
15:03
then
15:03
she
15:04
died
15:04
a
15:04
couple
15:05
of
15:05
years
15:05
after
15:05
that,
15:06
and
15:06
all
15:07
the
15:07
neighbors
15:07
said,
15:07
you
15:08
know,
15:08
she
15:08
died
15:08
of
15:08
a
15:09
broken
15:09
heart.
15:10
And
15:11
I
15:11
thought,
15:11
wow,
15:12
you
15:12
know,
15:12
this.
15:13
Then
15:13
I
15:13
really
15:14
dug
15:14
into
15:15
it
15:15
and,
15:15
you
15:16
know,
15:16
I
15:16
was
15:17
totally
15:17
into,
15:17
like,
15:18
the
15:18
SDS
15:19
and
15:19
willing
15:20
to
15:20
even
15:21
be
15:21
a
15:22
member
15:22
of
15:22
the
15:22
Weather
15:23
Underground,
15:25
which
15:25
in
15:25
hindsight
15:26
is
15:26
kind
15:26
of
15:27
crazy,
15:27
but
15:28
that's
15:28
where
15:29
my
15:29
head
15:29
was
15:29
at
15:30
as
15:30
time
15:30
went
15:30
on.
15:31
And
15:31
then
15:31
I
15:31
wrote
15:31
for
15:31
the
15:32
school
15:32
paper.
15:32
I
15:32
wrote
15:33
political
15:34
editorials,
15:35
which
15:36
got
15:36
me
15:36
in
15:36
trouble
15:36
with
15:37
the
15:37
John
15:37
Birch
15:38
Society
15:39
and
15:39
all
15:39
those
15:40
people.
15:40
Good
15:41
work.
15:41
And
15:41
I
15:41
didn't
15:42
understand
15:42
that.
15:43
I'm
15:43
just
15:43
like,
15:43
no,
15:44
this
15:44
is
15:44
a
15:44
bad
15:44
thing.
15:45
And
15:45
that's
15:45
one
15:45
thing
15:46
to
15:46
say
15:46
about
15:46
the
15:46
book
15:47
is
15:47
it's
15:48
not
15:48
a
15:49
kind
15:49
of
15:50
memory
15:50
of
15:51
the
15:51
way
15:51
it
15:52
used
15:52
to
15:52
be.
15:52
That
15:53
was
15:53
so
15:53
great
15:54
because
15:55
anyone
15:56
who
15:56
grew
15:56
up
15:56
in
15:56
the
15:56
60s
15:57
knows
15:58
it
15:59
was
15:59
not
15:59
always
16:00
wonderful.
16:01
There
16:01
was
16:01
a
16:02
lot
16:02
of
16:02
pain.
16:03
I
16:03
told
16:03
my
16:04
students
16:04
the
16:04
other
16:04
day
16:06
we
16:06
thought
16:06
the
16:06
Vietnam.
16:07
I
16:07
did
16:08
anyway.
16:08
Thought
16:08
the
16:08
Vietnam
16:09
War
16:10
would
16:10
go
16:10
on
16:12
as
16:12
long
16:12
as
16:13
Afghanistan
16:14
ended
16:14
up
16:14
going
16:14
on.
16:15
I
16:16
thought
16:16
it
16:16
always
16:17
would
16:17
be
16:17
here.
16:17
We'd
16:18
always
16:18
be
16:18
in
16:19
Vietnam.
16:20
And
16:20
it
16:20
was
16:20
very
16:21
painful
16:21
from
16:21
that
16:22
perspective.
16:22
And
16:22
then,
16:22
of
16:23
course,
16:23
the
16:23
police
16:24
and
16:25
the
16:26
secret
16:26
police,
16:27
I'm
16:27
sure
16:28
they
16:28
had
16:28
to
16:28
be
16:28
knocking
16:29
on
16:29
a
16:29
fire
16:29
sign
16:29
store.
16:31
Oh,
16:31
yeah.
16:32
Oh,
16:32
for
16:32
sure.
16:33
Yeah.
16:34
I
16:34
mean,
16:34
literally,
16:35
I
16:35
was
16:36
visited
16:36
by
16:37
representatives
16:38
of
16:38
the
16:39
CIA
16:39
or
16:40
something
16:40
like
16:40
it.
16:41
Yes.
16:42
Questioning
16:42
my
16:43
patriotism.
16:44
The
16:44
60s
16:45
was
16:45
a
16:45
very
16:45
violent
16:46
time
16:46
between
16:46
a
16:46
war
16:47
in
16:47
Vietnam
16:47
and
16:48
all
16:48
the
16:48
political
16:48
assassinations
16:49
and
16:50
the
16:50
fighting
16:51
in
16:51
the
16:51
streets.
16:51
The
16:52
Democratic
16:52
convention
16:52
in
16:53
Chicago,
16:53
there
16:54
was
16:54
this
16:54
contrasting
16:55
peace
16:55
movement
16:56
because
16:56
we
16:56
were
16:57
riding
16:57
high
16:57
on,
16:58
again,
16:58
the
16:58
post
16:59
war
16:59
empire,
16:59
and
17:00
we
17:00
had
17:00
everything
17:00
we
17:00
needed
17:01
and
17:01
we
17:01
were
17:01
celebrating
17:02
that.
17:02
So
17:03
it
17:03
was
17:03
a
17:03
real
17:03
tug
17:04
of
17:04
war.
17:04
Yeah,
17:05
no,
17:06
it
17:06
was.
17:07
So
17:07
there's
17:07
little
17:08
bright
17:08
spots
17:09
in
17:09
it
17:09
that
17:09
we
17:09
all
17:10
remember,
17:11
you
17:11
know,
17:12
Jimi
17:12
Hendrix
17:12
comes
17:13
along,
17:13
that
17:14
kind
17:14
of
17:14
changes
17:15
things.
17:16
And
17:16
then
17:16
a
17:16
little
17:17
bit
17:17
later,
17:17
fire
17:18
sign
17:18
comes
17:19
along
17:19
and
17:19
we
17:20
laugh
17:20
our
17:20
asses
17:21
off
17:21
at
17:23
all
17:23
of
17:23
the.
17:24
Ralph
17:24
Mark,
17:25
Ralph
17:25
Smart
17:26
here,
17:26
you
17:26
know.
17:27
Yeah,
17:27
right,
17:27
right.
17:28
And
17:28
I
17:28
love
17:28
that
17:28
elevator
17:29
one
17:29
too.
17:30
Where
17:30
the
17:30
elevator.
17:31
And
17:31
I
17:31
think
17:31
that's
17:31
a
17:32
second
17:32
level.
17:32
Don't
17:33
shout.
17:33
He
17:33
can
17:33
hear
17:34
you.
17:34
Yes.
17:35
It's
17:36
interesting
17:36
because
17:36
you,
17:37
you
17:37
actually
17:37
don't
17:37
reference
17:38
Fireside
17:38
Theater
17:39
in
17:39
your
17:39
book,
17:39
but
17:40
you
17:40
do
17:40
reference
17:41
the
17:41
Dada
17:42
movement,
17:42
which
17:43
of
17:43
course
17:43
inspired
17:44
us.
17:44
And
17:45
this,
17:45
the
17:45
effective
17:46
surrealistic
17:47
comedy.
17:47
Jonathan
17:48
Winters.
17:49
He's
17:49
one
17:49
of
17:50
your.
17:50
Right.
17:50
One
17:50
of
17:51
your
17:51
heroes
17:51
in
17:51
his
17:52
hero
17:52
Man.
17:52
Hero.
17:53
Right.
17:53
And
17:54
he
17:54
encouraged
17:55
you
17:55
to
17:55
improvise.
17:57
Yeah.
17:57
I
17:58
was
17:58
particularly
17:58
enjoying
17:59
the
17:59
chapters
18:00
about
18:00
your
18:00
performance
18:01
art
18:02
when
18:02
you
18:02
were
18:02
in
18:02
school.
18:03
You
18:03
guys
18:03
did
18:04
some
18:04
pretty
18:04
daring
18:05
and
18:05
outrageous
18:06
anti
18:07
authoritarian
18:07
things,
18:08
you
18:08
know.
18:08
We
18:09
did.
18:09
And
18:09
actually
18:10
we
18:10
have
18:10
a
18:10
big
18:10
celebration
18:11
coming
18:11
up
18:12
at
18:12
Wayne
18:13
State.
18:14
The
18:14
52nd
18:15
year
18:15
of
18:16
Ridgeway
18:17
was
18:17
the
18:17
name
18:17
of
18:17
the
18:17
collective.
18:19
Then
18:19
I
18:19
started
18:20
a
18:20
press
18:20
from
18:20
that
18:21
because
18:21
I
18:21
was
18:21
the
18:22
one
18:22
writer
18:22
kind
18:22
of
18:23
guy
18:23
in
18:23
the
18:23
group.
18:24
But
18:24
yeah,
18:25
that.
18:25
So
18:25
the
18:25
52nd
18:26
year
18:26
and
18:27
people
18:27
are
18:28
some
18:28
place
18:28
around
18:29
here.
18:29
A
18:29
Journal
18:30
of
18:30
the
18:30
Arts
18:31
did
18:31
a
18:32
big
18:32
thing
18:32
expose
18:33
on
18:33
us
18:33
because
18:34
they
18:34
said
18:35
one,
18:35
we
18:36
can't
18:36
believe
18:36
you're
18:37
all
18:37
still
18:37
alive
18:39
and
18:39
two,
18:40
you're
18:41
all
18:41
still
18:41
friends.
18:42
And
18:43
they're
18:43
all
18:43
coming
18:43
in
18:44
now
18:44
for
18:44
this
18:44
thing
18:45
in
18:45
a
18:45
couple
18:45
of
18:45
weeks
18:46
at
18:46
Wayne
18:46
State.
18:46
Oh
18:47
my
18:47
gosh,
18:47
that's
18:48
going
18:48
to
18:48
be
18:48
great.
18:48
I
18:49
hope
18:49
you
18:49
cover
18:49
it
18:49
well.
18:50
Oh
18:51
yeah,
18:51
it's
18:51
getting
18:51
coverage
18:52
for
18:52
sure.
18:52
You
18:52
know,
18:53
the
18:53
other
18:53
thing
18:53
that's
18:53
interesting
18:54
about
18:54
your
18:54
book,
18:54
which
18:55
we're
18:55
talking
18:55
about
18:55
Hound
18:55
Dog
18:56
Poets
18:57
of
18:57
Rock,
18:57
Revolution
18:58
and
18:58
Redemption,
18:58
available
18:59
now,
18:59
is
19:00
because
19:00
of
19:00
your
19:00
grandmother
19:01
turning
19:01
onto
19:01
Elvis.
19:02
You've
19:02
always
19:02
had
19:03
a
19:03
deep
19:03
appreciation
19:04
for
19:04
music.
19:04
Each
19:05
chapter
19:05
is
19:05
based
19:06
on
19:06
a
19:07
particular
19:07
musician.
19:08
Right.
19:09
How
19:09
did
19:09
you
19:09
cross
19:10
paths
19:10
with
19:10
so
19:10
many
19:11
very
19:11
notable
19:12
musicians?
19:12
Yes.
19:13
Well,
19:13
it
19:14
just,
19:14
it
19:14
kind
19:15
of
19:15
happened
19:16
one.
19:16
You
19:17
know,
19:18
I've
19:18
been
19:19
kind
19:19
of
19:19
in
19:19
the
19:20
literary
19:20
world
19:21
and
19:21
doing
19:21
things
19:21
for,
19:22
for
19:22
so
19:22
long
19:23
that
19:24
when
19:24
I
19:25
would
19:25
meet
19:25
a
19:26
friend,
19:26
let's
19:27
say
19:27
Al
19:27
Cooper,
19:30
you
19:30
know,
19:30
it
19:30
was
19:31
kind
19:31
of
19:31
like
19:32
he
19:32
was
19:32
a
19:32
hero.
19:33
But
19:34
I,
19:34
you
19:34
know,
19:35
I
19:35
didn't,
19:35
I
19:35
wasn't
19:36
starstruck.
19:37
I
19:37
just
19:37
thought,
19:37
wow,
19:38
what
19:39
a
19:39
great
19:39
guy.
19:39
And
19:40
then
19:40
we
19:40
hung
19:41
out
19:41
and
19:41
then
19:41
we
19:42
went
19:42
on
19:42
tour
19:43
a
19:43
couple
19:43
of
19:43
times
19:43
in
19:44
Europe
19:45
and
19:45
I
19:45
just
19:45
went
19:45
to
19:46
be
19:46
his
19:46
friend,
19:46
you
19:47
know,
19:47
I
19:47
mean
19:47
he,
19:48
he
19:48
likes
19:48
to
19:48
talk
19:48
about
19:49
music
19:49
a
19:49
lot
19:49
and
19:50
I
19:50
love
19:50
to
19:50
listen
19:50
to
19:51
it,
19:51
so.
19:52
And
19:52
he
19:52
doesn't
19:52
sleep
19:53
and
19:55
two
19:55
hours
19:56
a
19:56
night.
19:56
So
19:57
I'm
19:57
like,
19:57
okay,
19:58
I'm
19:58
up
19:58
for
19:59
it.
19:59
I've
19:59
been
19:59
stayed
20:00
at
20:00
his
20:00
house
20:00
several
20:01
times
20:01
too,
20:01
in
20:02
Massachusetts.
20:02
And
20:03
we
20:03
talk
20:04
late
20:05
into
20:05
the
20:05
night
20:06
or
20:06
all
20:06
night
20:06
about
20:07
any
20:07
plays,
20:07
cuts
20:08
of
20:08
different
20:08
stuff
20:09
and
20:09
so
20:09
forth.
20:10
So.
20:11
But
20:11
I'll
20:11
say
20:11
one
20:12
thing
20:12
with
20:12
the
20:12
Al
20:12
Cooper
20:13
thing.
20:14
I
20:14
was
20:15
listening
20:15
to
20:15
Fresh
20:16
Air
20:17
on
20:17
the
20:17
radio
20:19
and
20:19
they
20:19
were
20:20
doing
20:20
an
20:20
interview
20:20
when
20:21
his
20:21
book
20:21
came
20:21
out,
20:22
Backstabbing
20:23
Bastards
20:23
and
20:24
something.
20:25
And
20:25
he
20:26
was
20:26
teaching
20:26
at
20:26
Berkeley
20:28
in.
20:29
Not
20:29
the
20:29
Berkeley
20:29
there,
20:30
but
20:30
Berkeley
20:30
Music
20:31
School.
20:32
Right.
20:33
And
20:33
so
20:34
they
20:34
hired
20:34
him
20:35
to
20:35
teach
20:35
there.
20:35
He
20:36
was
20:36
taking
20:36
care
20:36
of
20:36
his
20:37
mother
20:37
who
20:37
lived
20:37
by
20:38
there.
20:38
And
20:39
so
20:39
I
20:39
just
20:40
reached
20:40
out
20:40
to
20:40
him
20:41
as
20:41
a
20:41
fellow
20:41
professor
20:43
and
20:43
said,
20:43
hey,
20:43
professor,
20:46
you
20:46
know,
20:46
I
20:47
dig
20:47
your
20:47
stuff.
20:47
I'd
20:48
like
20:48
you
20:48
to
20:48
come
20:48
to
20:49
Detroit.
20:50
Well,
20:50
I
20:50
was
20:50
running
20:51
a
20:51
major,
20:51
a
20:52
literary
20:52
organization,
20:53
the
20:53
Writer's
20:53
Voice,
20:54
at
20:54
the
20:54
ymca,
20:55
which
20:56
started
20:56
in
20:56
New
20:56
York,
20:57
and
20:58
I
20:58
don't
20:58
think
20:58
they
20:58
had
20:59
one
20:59
in
20:59
la.
21:00
They
21:00
tried
21:00
to,
21:01
but
21:01
Beyond
21:01
Broke
21:02
was
21:02
already
21:02
established.
21:03
So
21:04
it
21:04
turns
21:04
out,
21:05
like,
21:05
when
21:05
I
21:05
was
21:06
young,
21:07
I
21:07
never
21:07
thought
21:08
about
21:08
Los
21:08
Angeles.
21:09
I
21:09
was
21:09
a
21:09
New
21:10
York
21:10
guy.
21:10
I
21:10
went
21:10
to
21:11
New
21:11
York
21:11
when
21:11
I
21:11
was
21:11
in
21:12
high
21:12
school
21:13
looking,
21:13
of
21:13
course,
21:14
for
21:14
John
21:14
Lennon
21:15
on
21:15
West
21:15
bank
21:15
street
21:16
in
21:16
the
21:16
Village.
21:16
And
21:17
I
21:17
didn't
21:18
see
21:18
him.
21:18
But
21:18
I
21:19
love
21:19
New
21:20
York.
21:20
That's
21:20
when
21:21
I
21:21
thought
21:21
America.
21:22
When
21:23
I
21:23
saw
21:23
New
21:23
York
21:23
City
21:24
in
21:24
person,
21:25
I
21:26
thought,
21:26
you
21:27
know,
21:27
now
21:27
I
21:28
see
21:28
what's
21:28
great
21:29
about
21:29
America.
21:30
This
21:30
is
21:30
the
21:30
most
21:30
incredible
21:32
place
21:32
that
21:32
I.
21:32
So
21:33
I
21:33
did
21:33
a
21:33
lot
21:33
of
21:33
stuff
21:33
in
21:34
New
21:34
York
21:35
and
21:35
I
21:35
started
21:36
doing
21:36
some
21:37
things
21:37
in
21:37
la.
21:38
And
21:38
now
21:38
it's
21:39
like
21:39
I've
21:39
been
21:39
going
21:39
to
21:40
LA
21:41
for
21:41
35
21:41
years,
21:42
doing
21:42
stuff.
21:43
And
21:43
Beyond
21:44
Baroque.
21:44
I'll
21:44
be
21:45
at
21:45
Beyond
21:45
Baroque
21:45
in
21:46
July
21:47
with
21:48
my
21:48
La
21:48
Coyote
21:49
Monk
21:49
Poetry
21:50
Band
21:50
and
21:52
some
21:52
others.
21:53
So
21:54
they
21:54
just
21:54
firmed
21:55
that
21:55
up
21:55
the
21:55
other
21:56
day.
21:57
So.
21:57
Yes,
21:58
and
21:58
Beyond
21:58
Baroque
21:59
was
21:59
a,
21:59
you
21:59
know,
21:59
always
22:00
a
22:00
legend.
22:00
It's
22:01
like
22:01
the
22:01
St.
22:01
Mark's
22:02
Poetry
22:02
Project
22:03
of
22:03
LA.
22:04
So
22:04
I
22:04
just
22:04
saw
22:05
Richard
22:05
Hell
22:06
read
22:06
from
22:06
his
22:06
book
22:07
there
22:07
about
22:07
a
22:07
week
22:07
or
22:08
two
22:08
ago.
22:09
Yeah,
22:10
that's
22:10
what
22:10
I
22:11
mean,
22:11
you
22:11
know,
22:12
connected
22:13
and
22:13
then,
22:13
you
22:13
know,
22:13
so
22:13
that.
22:14
That's
22:14
kind
22:15
of
22:15
how
22:15
it
22:15
is.
22:15
I'm
22:16
thinking
22:16
of
22:16
la,
22:17
you
22:17
know,
22:17
I
22:18
got
22:18
connected
22:18
with
22:18
the
22:19
Minute
22:19
Men.
22:20
And
22:21
Mike
22:21
Watt
22:21
has
22:22
been
22:22
a
22:22
dear
22:22
friend
22:23
for
22:23
40
22:24
some
22:24
years
22:25
now.
22:25
He
22:25
even
22:26
has
22:26
backed
22:26
me
22:27
up.
22:27
And
22:27
when
22:27
I
22:27
played
22:28
in
22:28
la,
22:29
he
22:29
would
22:30
drive
22:30
up
22:30
from
22:30
San
22:31
Pedro.
22:31
These
22:32
are
22:32
working
22:32
class
22:33
people.
22:33
He'd
22:33
drive
22:33
up
22:34
with
22:34
his
22:35
amplifier
22:36
and
22:36
his
22:36
guitar
22:37
and
22:37
it,
22:37
you
22:37
know,
22:37
he'd
22:38
already
22:38
been
22:38
through
22:38
all
22:39
that
22:39
Minuteman
22:40
stuff
22:40
and
22:41
he.
22:41
He'd
22:41
hike
22:42
over
22:42
to
22:42
the
22:43
Rose
22:43
Cafe
22:44
in
22:44
Venice.
22:45
Yeah.
22:46
And
22:46
we
22:46
Did
22:46
a.
22:47
We
22:47
would
22:47
do
22:47
a
22:47
gig
22:48
there,
22:48
you
22:48
know,
22:48
and
22:49
then
22:49
he'd
22:49
get
22:49
back
22:49
in
22:49
his
22:50
car
22:50
and
22:50
drive
22:51
back
22:51
to
22:51
San
22:51
Pedro.
22:52
ML.
22:53
It's
22:53
so
22:53
true,
22:54
because
22:54
when
22:54
that
22:55
one
22:55
Fire
22:55
Sign
22:56
was
22:56
cranking
22:56
out
22:57
records
22:57
with
22:57
Columbia,
22:58
it
22:58
was
22:59
before
23:00
people
23:00
were
23:00
selling
23:00
million
23:01
gazillion,
23:02
you
23:02
know,
23:03
platinum
23:03
records
23:03
and
23:04
all
23:04
that
23:04
stuff.
23:04
And
23:05
there
23:05
was
23:05
a
23:05
community,
23:06
it
23:06
was
23:06
a
23:07
bohemian
23:07
community
23:08
of
23:08
artists
23:09
who
23:09
were
23:09
suddenly
23:10
given
23:10
this
23:11
wonderful
23:11
international
23:12
platform
23:13
to
23:14
express
23:15
their
23:15
art.
23:16
And
23:16
we
23:16
were
23:16
all
23:17
kind
23:17
of
23:17
grateful
23:18
for
23:18
it,
23:19
if
23:20
you
23:20
will.
23:20
Right,
23:20
right.
23:21
And
23:21
we
23:22
hung
23:22
out
23:22
together.
23:23
Amel,
23:23
you've
23:23
incorporated
23:24
music
23:24
into
23:25
your
23:25
poetry
23:25
readings
23:26
quite
23:26
a
23:26
bit.
23:27
Well,
23:27
you
23:27
know,
23:27
I
23:27
thought
23:28
about
23:28
that
23:28
early.
23:29
I
23:29
started
23:29
doing
23:30
it
23:31
when
23:31
I
23:31
was
23:31
young,
23:32
and
23:32
then
23:33
when
23:33
I
23:33
got
23:33
to
23:33
college,
23:34
we
23:35
had
23:35
a
23:35
four
23:36
track
23:36
tape
23:37
player
23:37
someone
23:38
gave
23:38
us,
23:39
and
23:39
I
23:39
didn't
23:39
know
23:39
how
23:40
to
23:40
play
23:40
anything.
23:40
I
23:40
mean,
23:41
my
23:41
grandmother
23:41
spent
23:42
money
23:42
on
23:42
me
23:43
to
23:43
learn
23:43
guitar,
23:44
but
23:44
I
23:44
never
23:44
did.
23:45
I
23:46
learned
23:46
like
23:46
the
23:46
C
23:47
chord
23:47
or
23:47
something.
23:47
But
23:49
I
23:49
would
23:49
sit
23:49
around
23:50
in
23:50
our
23:50
apartment
23:51
and
23:52
make
23:52
recordings
23:53
with
23:54
poetry
23:54
and
23:54
music.
23:55
And
23:55
back
23:55
then
23:55
I
23:56
would
23:56
use,
23:56
you
23:56
know,
23:57
records
23:58
or
23:58
Nat
23:58
Coleman
23:59
or
23:59
whatever.
23:59
And
24:00
I
24:00
remember
24:00
I
24:00
did
24:00
a
24:00
thing
24:01
with
24:01
the
24:01
Chieftains
24:02
before
24:02
they
24:02
were
24:02
known.
24:03
I
24:03
mean,
24:03
not
24:04
me
24:04
personally,
24:04
but
24:05
on
24:05
their
24:05
record
24:06
when
24:06
Barry
24:07
Lyndon
24:07
came
24:07
out,
24:08
I'd
24:08
never
24:08
heard
24:09
music
24:09
like
24:09
that
24:09
before,
24:10
and
24:10
I
24:11
did
24:11
a
24:11
piece
24:11
with
24:11
that.
24:13
But
24:13
it
24:14
dawned
24:14
on
24:14
me
24:14
later
24:15
that
24:15
what
24:15
I
24:16
was
24:16
doing,
24:16
because
24:17
this
24:17
has
24:17
been
24:18
my
24:18
main
24:19
point
24:19
in
24:19
life,
24:20
is
24:20
to
24:20
bring
24:21
poetry
24:21
to
24:21
the
24:22
people.
24:22
I
24:23
always
24:23
said
24:23
if
24:23
an
24:23
idiot
24:24
like
24:24
me
24:25
could
24:26
understand
24:26
and
24:27
write
24:27
poetry
24:28
and
24:28
write
24:28
books,
24:29
then
24:29
certainly
24:30
people,
24:31
like
24:31
most
24:32
people
24:32
smarter
24:33
than
24:33
me,
24:33
could
24:33
too.
24:34
They
24:34
just
24:34
have
24:35
to
24:35
be
24:35
exposed
24:35
to
24:36
it.
24:36
So
24:36
that's
24:37
how
24:37
I
24:37
got
24:37
into
24:37
the
24:38
music
24:38
thing.
24:39
And
24:39
then
24:40
that,
24:40
you
24:40
know,
24:40
doing
24:40
that,
24:41
I
24:41
thought,
24:41
well,
24:41
I'll
24:42
bring
24:42
music
24:42
to
24:42
it.
24:43
That's
24:43
unexpected.
24:44
And
24:44
people
24:45
liked
24:45
it.
24:46
And
24:46
then
24:46
musicians
24:47
started
24:47
coming
24:47
up
24:48
to
24:48
me
24:48
in
24:48
Detroit
24:49
from
24:49
all
24:49
these
24:49
different
24:50
groups
24:51
and
24:51
said,
24:51
hey,
24:52
we
24:52
want
24:52
to
24:52
play
24:52
with
24:53
you.
24:53
And
24:54
I
24:54
go,
24:54
you
24:54
do?
24:55
And
24:55
they
24:55
said,
24:55
yeah.
24:56
And
24:56
then
24:56
a
24:56
friend
24:57
said,
24:57
I
24:58
have
24:58
a
24:58
studio
24:59
down
24:59
in
25:00
Wyandotte,
25:00
Michigan,
25:01
and
25:02
why
25:03
don't
25:03
you
25:03
come
25:03
down
25:04
there
25:04
and
25:05
record
25:06
an
25:07
album
25:07
and
25:08
you
25:08
can
25:08
sell
25:08
that
25:08
at
25:08
your
25:09
poetry
25:09
readings
25:10
instead
25:10
of
25:11
just
25:11
selling.
25:13
And
25:13
I
25:13
thought,
25:14
wow,
25:15
whoever
25:15
heard
25:15
of
25:15
that
25:17
where
25:17
I'm
25:18
at
25:18
now?
25:18
Then
25:18
I
25:18
ended
25:19
up,
25:19
I
25:19
met
25:19
Country
25:20
Joe
25:20
because
25:20
I
25:21
did
25:21
a
25:21
lot
25:21
of
25:21
work
25:21
with
25:22
Vietnam
25:22
vets.
25:23
And
25:23
he
25:23
did
25:23
too.
25:24
And
25:24
he,
25:25
he
25:25
had
25:25
a
25:25
special
25:26
place
25:26
in
25:26
his
25:26
heart
25:27
for
25:27
Detroit
25:27
and
25:28
the
25:28
vets
25:28
here.
25:29
And
25:29
we
25:29
worked.
25:30
That's
25:30
how
25:30
we
25:30
started
25:30
working.
25:31
And
25:31
then
25:31
we
25:31
thought,
25:32
well,
25:32
let's
25:32
do
25:32
a
25:32
record.
25:33
You
25:33
Know
25:34
what
25:34
the
25:34
hell?
25:34
So
25:35
we
25:35
recorded
25:35
it
25:35
in
25:36
the
25:36
basement
25:36
of
25:36
a
25:36
suburban
25:37
house
25:37
in
25:38
Michigan
25:39
outside
25:39
of
25:40
Detroit
25:40
in
25:41
a
25:41
day.
25:42
And
25:42
then
25:42
he
25:42
took
25:42
it
25:42
back
25:43
and
25:43
Bill
25:44
Belmont
25:44
put
25:44
it
25:45
on
25:45
rag
25:45
baby,
25:46
and
25:46
the
25:46
rest
25:46
is
25:47
history.
25:47
We
25:47
have
25:48
something
25:48
that
25:48
you
25:48
did
25:49
called
25:49
Twilight
25:49
Blues.
25:51
Right,
25:51
let's
25:51
play
25:52
that.
25:52
We're
25:52
talking
25:52
to
25:53
ML
25:53
Liebler
25:54
on
25:54
Sexy
25:54
Boomer
25:55
show.
26:06
Were
26:06
there
26:07
twice
26:07
Twilight
26:08
Twilight
26:08
Blues
26:09
descends
26:10
upon
26:11
neon
26:11
snake
26:12
electric
26:13
city
26:14
sign
26:15
ongoing
26:16
going
26:17
on
26:18
It's
26:18
a
26:18
language
26:19
spoken
26:20
in
26:20
miles
26:21
that
26:21
comes
26:21
road
26:21
after
26:22
all
26:22
the
26:22
other
26:22
road
26:23
it's
26:24
another
26:25
Just
26:25
another
26:25
angel
26:26
Another
26:27
angel's
26:27
wing
26:29
Just
26:29
waving
26:29
goodbye
26:32
Waving
26:32
goodbye
26:33
goodbye,
26:33
goodbye,
26:34
goodbye,
26:35
goodbye
26:35
Just
26:36
waving
26:38
goodbye
26:39
to
26:39
our
26:39
unity
26:41
and
26:41
just
26:41
waving
26:44
waving
26:44
goodbye,
26:45
goodbye,
26:46
goodbye
26:47
Just
26:47
waving
26:50
goodbye
26:51
to
26:51
our
26:51
unity
26:53
we're
26:53
lost
26:53
city
26:54
broken
26:55
spirit
26:56
split
26:56
confusion
26:57
everywhere
26:59
and
26:59
we're
26:59
separate
27:00
never
27:00
equal
27:01
and
27:02
we
27:02
live
27:02
here,
27:03
we
27:03
live
27:03
here
27:04
Nobody
27:05
saying
27:06
nothing
27:07
Turning
27:07
blind
27:08
eyes
27:08
like
27:08
double
27:09
plays
27:10
well
27:10
it
27:10
does.
27:11
Bottles
27:13
and
27:13
makeup
27:14
and
27:14
we
27:14
got
27:14
no.
27:14
More
27:15
under
27:16
Blue
27:16
jazz
27:17
wailing
27:18
no
27:19
wonder
27:19
Blue
27:19
jazz
27:19
wailing
27:21
no
27:21
wonder
27:22
blue
27:22
jazz
27:22
a
27:22
wailing
27:24
through
27:24
the
27:25
thin
27:25
breeze
27:25
on
27:26
eight
27:26
Mile
27:26
Road
27:27
no
27:27
wonder
27:27
Blue
27:28
jazz
27:28
wailing
27:30
no
27:30
wonder
27:30
Blue
27:31
jazz
27:31
wailing
27:32
and
27:32
wailing
27:33
on
27:33
a
27:33
Blue
27:34
jazz
27:34
wailing
27:36
through
27:36
the
27:36
thin
27:37
breeze
27:37
on
27:37
eight
27:37
Mile
27:38
Road
27:39
we
27:39
got
27:39
ghosts,
27:40
we
27:40
got
27:41
birds
27:41
we
27:42
got
27:42
ghosts
27:43
and
27:43
birds
27:44
we
27:44
left
27:44
with
27:45
ghosts
27:46
and
27:46
birds
27:47
who
27:47
live
27:48
in
27:48
living
27:49
night
27:50
we
27:50
got
27:50
ghosts,
27:51
we
27:52
got
27:52
birds
27:53
who
27:53
live
27:53
here
27:54
Living
27:55
now
27:56
in
27:56
the
27:56
twilight
27:57
Twilight
27:57
blues
27:58
Twilight
27:59
blues
28:01
that
28:01
is.
28:02
ML
28:02
Liebler,
28:03
our
28:03
guest
28:03
today,
28:05
the
28:05
poet
28:05
from
28:06
Detroit,
28:07
about
28:07
Detroit.
28:08
Yeah,
28:08
Eight
28:08
Mile
28:09
Road.
28:10
People
28:11
know
28:11
eight
28:11
Mile
28:11
from
28:11
Eminem.
28:12
And
28:13
as
28:13
I'm
28:13
reading
28:13
your
28:14
book,
28:14
I
28:14
see
28:14
8
28:14
mile,
28:15
13
28:15
mile.
28:16
What
28:16
is
28:16
that?
28:16
Well,
28:17
you
28:17
know,
28:17
everybody
28:18
asks
28:18
that
28:18
question
28:18
who
28:19
comes
28:19
to
28:19
visit
28:20
here.
28:21
I
28:21
mean,
28:21
nowadays
28:21
they
28:22
see
28:22
8
28:22
mile
28:23
and
28:23
go,
28:23
hey,
28:23
that's
28:24
8
28:24
mile.
28:25
And
28:25
it's
28:25
like,
28:25
yeah,
28:26
Detroit's
28:27
always
28:27
had
28:28
mile
28:29
roads
28:29
that
28:30
measured
28:30
from
28:30
the
28:31
center
28:31
of
28:32
downtown.
28:33
And
28:33
so
28:34
8
28:34
mile
28:34
was
28:35
8
28:35
miles
28:35
away
28:35
from
28:36
the
28:36
center.
28:36
And
28:37
I
28:37
live
28:38
now
28:38
and
28:38
have
28:39
grown
28:39
up
28:40
pretty
28:40
much
28:40
by
28:40
12
28:41
mile,
28:41
and
28:42
that's
28:42
12
28:42
miles
28:43
from
28:43
city
28:43
center
28:44
type
28:44
of
28:45
thing.
28:45
And
28:46
so
28:46
that
28:46
was
28:46
kind
28:47
of
28:47
common,
28:47
but
28:48
I
28:48
guess
28:48
it's
28:48
not
28:48
so
28:49
common
28:49
for
28:49
visitors
28:50
because
28:50
they're
28:50
always
28:51
amazed
28:52
at
28:52
two
28:53
our
28:53
street
28:53
names.
28:54
You
28:54
know,
28:55
one
28:55
is
28:55
called
28:55
Grass
28:56
Shit,
28:57
which
28:58
as
28:58
kids
28:58
we
28:59
thought,
28:59
oh,
28:59
great,
28:59
we
29:00
can
29:00
say
29:00
Grass
29:01
Shit.
29:02
But
29:02
it's
29:02
spelled,
29:03
I
29:03
think
29:03
in
29:04
French
29:04
it's
29:04
grado
29:05
or
29:06
something
29:06
like
29:06
that,
29:07
because
29:07
there's
29:07
a
29:07
lot
29:07
of
29:08
French
29:08
stuff
29:08
and
29:09
then
29:09
there's
29:09
Kadju
29:10
and.
29:11
God,
29:11
I'm
29:11
just
29:12
thinking
29:12
of
29:12
being
29:12
here
29:12
with.
29:13
Driving
29:13
around
29:13
with
29:13
Ken
29:14
Kesey,
29:14
and
29:15
he
29:15
was
29:15
amazed
29:16
because
29:16
what
29:16
is
29:17
this
29:17
street
29:17
called?
29:18
I
29:18
said,
29:18
it's
29:19
Gratiot.
29:19
He
29:19
goes,
29:20
that's
29:20
not
29:20
Gratiot.
29:21
I
29:21
go,
29:21
that's
29:21
Gratiot.
29:22
So
29:22
you
29:22
were
29:22
driving
29:23
around
29:23
Detroit
29:23
with
29:23
Ken
29:24
Kesey.
29:25
Yeah.
29:25
He
29:25
wanted
29:25
to
29:25
go
29:26
bowling
29:26
one
29:26
night
29:27
when
29:27
he
29:27
was
29:27
here.
29:28
So
29:29
I
29:29
have
29:29
a
29:29
picture
29:30
somewhere
29:30
here,
29:31
him
29:31
holding
29:32
bowling
29:32
balls.
29:33
And
29:33
it
29:33
was,
29:33
take
29:33
the
29:33
acid
29:34
heads.
29:34
Bowling
29:36
was
29:37
a
29:37
caption
29:37
for
29:37
the
29:38
photos.
29:38
The
29:38
eight
29:38
Mile
29:39
Road
29:39
is
29:39
also
29:40
a
29:40
divisive
29:41
line
29:41
between
29:42
it
29:42
always
29:42
has
29:42
been
29:43
the
29:43
inner
29:44
city
29:44
and
29:44
the
29:45
upscale
29:45
suburbs.
29:46
Right?
29:46
Yeah.
29:47
And
29:47
that's
29:47
the
29:47
thing
29:47
that's
29:48
different
29:48
than
29:48
say
29:49
Los
29:49
Angeles.
29:50
I
29:50
don't
29:51
know
29:51
so
29:51
much
29:51
about
29:51
the
29:51
suburbs
29:52
there.
29:52
But
29:53
in
29:53
like
29:54
New
29:54
York
29:54
City,
29:54
the
29:55
suburbs
29:55
and
29:56
Chicago
29:56
are
29:57
really
29:57
far
29:57
away
29:58
from
29:58
the
29:58
city.
29:59
Well,
29:59
here,
30:00
I
30:00
mean,
30:00
I
30:00
live
30:00
at
30:01
12
30:01
mile,
30:02
I
30:02
ride
30:02
my
30:02
bike
30:03
4
30:03
miles,
30:03
I'm
30:03
at
30:04
8
30:04
mile.
30:05
So
30:05
and
30:05
then
30:06
you
30:06
cross
30:06
8
30:06
mile
30:07
and
30:07
you're
30:07
in
30:08
Detroit,
30:08
then
30:08
that's
30:09
the
30:09
city
30:09
limits
30:10
of
30:10
Detroit.
30:11
And
30:11
so
30:12
it's
30:12
in
30:12
that
30:13
way,
30:13
it's
30:13
kind
30:13
of
30:13
a
30:14
different
30:14
scenario.
30:15
We're
30:15
much
30:15
closer
30:16
to
30:16
the
30:16
city
30:18
than
30:18
probably
30:18
other
30:19
major
30:19
cities
30:19
and
30:20
suburbs
30:20
are.
30:21
You
30:21
know,
30:21
Detroit
30:22
means
30:22
the
30:22
narrows
30:23
in
30:23
French.
30:24
Oh
30:25
yes,
30:26
it
30:26
means
30:26
the
30:26
narrows.
30:27
And
30:27
of
30:27
course
30:27
you
30:27
were
30:28
talking
30:28
about
30:28
suburbs
30:28
in
30:29
Los
30:29
Angeles.
30:29
Los
30:30
Angeles
30:31
is
30:31
the
30:31
suburbs.
30:32
Yes,
30:32
that's
30:33
true.
30:33
One
30:34
of
30:34
the
30:34
other
30:34
aspects
30:35
of
30:35
your
30:35
story
30:36
that
30:36
is
30:37
so
30:37
astonishing
30:38
is
30:38
how
30:39
many
30:40
places
30:40
in
30:40
the
30:40
world
30:41
you
30:42
have
30:42
been
30:42
able
30:42
to
30:43
adventure
30:43
in.
30:44
Including
30:45
really
30:46
hair
30:46
raising
30:47
experiences
30:48
in
30:48
Afghanistan.
30:50
In
30:50
service
30:50
to
30:51
your
30:51
government,
30:51
no
30:52
less.
30:52
Yeah.
30:53
What
30:53
happened
30:54
is
30:54
it
30:55
all
30:55
started
30:55
in
30:55
Germany,
30:56
but
30:56
no,
30:57
in
30:57
Germany
30:57
I
30:57
was.
30:58
It
30:58
did,
30:58
didn't
30:59
it?
30:59
It
30:59
all
30:59
started
31:00
in
31:00
Germany
31:00
and
31:00
it's
31:01
still
31:01
going
31:01
on.
31:05
As
31:05
they
31:05
call
31:06
me
31:06
Herr
31:06
Liebler,
31:07
Herr
31:07
Professor
31:08
Liebler.
31:09
But
31:10
when
31:10
I
31:10
was
31:11
in
31:11
Munich
31:12
for
31:12
the
31:12
first
31:13
time,
31:13
I
31:14
thought,
31:14
oh,
31:14
I'm
31:14
going
31:14
to
31:15
see
31:15
Lieblers
31:15
all
31:16
over
31:16
the
31:16
place
31:16
here.
31:17
And
31:18
so
31:18
I
31:18
went
31:18
in
31:18
the
31:18
hotel
31:19
and
31:19
I
31:19
said,
31:20
they
31:20
said,
31:20
what's
31:20
your
31:21
name?
31:21
I
31:21
said,
31:21
liebler.
31:22
I
31:22
go,
31:22
that
31:22
must
31:22
be
31:22
like
31:23
Smith
31:23
here.
31:24
And
31:24
the
31:24
lady
31:25
at
31:25
the
31:25
hotel
31:26
said,
31:26
that's
31:27
a
31:27
jewel
31:28
name.
31:29
Nice.
31:30
Yeah,
31:31
but
31:31
I'm
31:31
not
31:31
Jewish.
31:32
I'm
31:32
a
31:33
convert
31:33
to
31:33
Catholicism.
31:34
I
31:34
was
31:35
never.
31:35
But
31:36
that's
31:36
another
31:36
story.
31:36
When
31:37
I
31:37
first.
31:37
It
31:37
is
31:37
another
31:38
story
31:38
and
31:38
it's
31:39
in
31:39
your
31:39
book
31:40
and
31:40
it's
31:40
wonderfully
31:41
told.
31:41
You
31:41
were
31:42
raised
31:42
Lutheran.
31:43
I
31:43
was.
31:44
And
31:44
then
31:44
you
31:44
converted.
31:45
You
31:45
devoted
31:46
a
31:46
lot
31:46
of
31:46
your
31:46
life
31:46
to
31:47
alcohol
31:47
and
31:48
LSD
31:49
and
31:49
things
31:49
like
31:50
that.
31:50
Thanks
31:50
to
31:51
fire
31:51
sign.
31:52
No,
31:52
it's
31:52
our
31:52
fault.
31:53
Is
31:53
it?
31:53
And
31:53
you
31:54
had
31:54
the
31:54
ill
31:54
effects
31:54
of
31:55
what
31:55
now
31:55
we
31:56
know
31:56
as
31:56
panic
31:56
attacks.
31:57
Yeah.
31:58
And
31:58
that
31:59
really
31:59
Debilitated
32:00
you.
32:00
But
32:00
what's
32:00
interesting
32:01
is
32:01
that
32:01
you
32:02
consciously
32:02
switched
32:03
over
32:03
to
32:03
Catholicism
32:04
and
32:04
you
32:04
are
32:04
still
32:05
a
32:05
faithful
32:05
Catholic.
32:06
Yeah,
32:07
I
32:07
am.
32:07
In
32:07
fact,
32:07
I
32:08
was
32:08
just
32:08
talking
32:08
to
32:08
my
32:09
friend
32:09
who's
32:09
a
32:09
Baptist
32:10
minister,
32:11
blues
32:12
artist
32:12
and
32:12
a
32:13
minister,
32:13
and
32:14
he
32:14
goes,
32:14
you're
32:15
the
32:15
only
32:15
guy
32:15
that
32:15
goes
32:16
to
32:16
church
32:16
more
32:16
than
32:17
we
32:17
do
32:18
because
32:19
he's
32:19
been
32:19
on
32:19
the
32:20
road
32:20
with
32:20
me.
32:20
And
32:20
I
32:20
usually
32:21
try
32:21
to
32:21
go
32:21
to
32:21
mass
32:23
when
32:23
I
32:23
can
32:24
and,
32:24
you
32:24
know,
32:25
during
32:25
the
32:25
week
32:26
even.
32:26
And
32:26
that's
32:26
kind
32:27
of
32:27
unheard
32:27
of
32:27
by
32:27
normal
32:28
people.
32:28
What
32:28
does
32:29
it
32:29
do
32:29
for
32:29
you?
32:29
Why
32:29
are
32:30
you
32:30
so
32:30
devout?
32:30
The
32:31
thing
32:31
is,
32:31
my
32:31
wife
32:32
was
32:32
Catholic
32:33
and
32:33
we've
32:34
been
32:34
together
32:34
since
32:34
we
32:35
were
32:35
14.
32:35
But
32:36
so
32:36
she
32:36
was
32:37
raised
32:37
Catholic.
32:39
And
32:39
I
32:39
wanted
32:40
my
32:40
kids
32:40
being
32:41
a
32:41
professor.
32:42
All
32:42
the
32:42
kids
32:42
who
32:43
went
32:43
to
32:43
Catholic
32:44
school,
32:44
they
32:44
know
32:44
how
32:44
to
32:45
write,
32:46
and
32:46
the
32:46
kids
32:46
who
32:46
went
32:47
to
32:47
schools
32:47
like
32:47
me,
32:48
don't
32:48
know
32:49
how
32:49
to
32:49
write.
32:50
So
32:50
I
32:50
said,
32:50
when
32:50
we
32:51
have
32:51
kids,
32:51
I
32:52
want
32:52
them
32:52
to
32:52
go
32:52
to
32:52
a
32:52
Catholic
32:53
school.
32:53
Well,
32:53
she
32:53
was
32:54
more
32:54
than
32:54
fine
32:54
with
32:55
that,
32:55
and
32:56
the
32:56
kids
32:56
did,
32:56
and
32:57
they
32:57
all
32:57
know
32:57
how
32:57
to
32:58
write.
32:58
In
32:58
fact,
32:58
my
32:58
son
32:59
is
32:59
a
32:59
writer
32:59
and.
33:01
And
33:01
my
33:01
daughter's
33:02
a
33:02
teacher.
33:02
But.
33:03
So
33:03
that
33:03
was
33:04
the.
33:05
That's
33:06
kind
33:06
of
33:06
like
33:07
where
33:07
it
33:08
started
33:08
for
33:09
me.
33:09
But
33:10
then
33:10
as
33:10
I
33:11
started
33:11
going
33:11
to
33:12
church
33:12
and
33:12
doing
33:12
all
33:13
that
33:13
sort
33:13
of
33:13
thing
33:14
every
33:14
Sunday,
33:15
I
33:15
became
33:15
much
33:16
more
33:16
aware
33:16
of
33:16
the
33:17
activist
33:17
side
33:18
of
33:18
Catholicism.
33:19
Then,
33:21
like
33:21
meeting
33:21
all
33:21
these
33:22
other
33:22
people.
33:22
I
33:23
met
33:23
Father
33:24
Daniel
33:24
Berrigan.
33:25
He
33:25
came
33:25
to
33:25
Detroit
33:26
a
33:26
couple
33:26
of
33:26
times
33:27
for
33:27
me,
33:27
and
33:27
we
33:27
hung
33:28
out.
33:29
And
33:30
then
33:30
I
33:30
became
33:31
aware
33:31
of
33:31
Dorothy
33:32
Day
33:32
and
33:32
the
33:33
Catholic
33:33
Worker.
33:34
And
33:35
so
33:35
that's,
33:36
you
33:36
know,
33:36
when
33:36
people
33:36
say,
33:37
oh,
33:37
you're
33:37
a
33:37
devout
33:38
Catholic.
33:38
Yeah.
33:39
I
33:39
say,
33:39
I'm
33:39
a
33:40
left
33:40
wing
33:40
Catholic,
33:41
you
33:41
know,
33:41
for
33:41
sure.
33:42
And
33:42
that's
33:43
why
33:43
those
33:43
were
33:43
my
33:44
influences.
33:44
How
33:44
many
33:45
are
33:45
there
33:45
of
33:45
you?
33:48
Just
33:48
me,
33:49
I
33:49
think.
33:51
Hey,
33:51
but
33:51
let's
33:51
get
33:51
back
33:52
to
33:52
Afghanistan.
33:53
Yeah.
33:53
How
33:53
did
33:53
you
33:54
end
33:54
up
33:54
in
33:54
Afghanistan?
33:55
Certainly
33:55
not
33:56
because
33:56
you
33:56
were
33:56
a
33:56
Christian.
33:57
No,
33:59
I
34:00
did
34:00
go
34:00
to
34:00
Mass
34:00
there,
34:01
though,
34:02
with
34:02
some
34:02
of
34:02
the
34:02
State
34:03
Department
34:03
people
34:03
who
34:04
were
34:04
Catholic.
34:05
But
34:06
at
34:06
any
34:06
rate,
34:07
no,
34:07
what
34:07
happened
34:07
is
34:08
I
34:08
started
34:09
traveling
34:10
and.
34:10
And
34:11
so
34:11
I
34:12
got
34:12
a
34:12
gig
34:13
in.
34:13
Well,
34:14
Wayne
34:14
State
34:14
has
34:15
a
34:15
program
34:16
in
34:17
Munich.
34:17
That's
34:18
how
34:18
I
34:18
ended
34:18
up.
34:18
I
34:19
see.
34:19
They
34:19
call
34:19
it
34:20
the
34:20
junior
34:20
year
34:20
in
34:21
Munich.
34:21
But.
34:21
But
34:21
there's
34:22
very
34:22
few
34:22
Wayne
34:23
State.
34:23
They're
34:23
mostly
34:23
from
34:24
Harvard
34:25
and
34:25
Yale
34:25
and
34:25
stuff
34:26
like
34:26
that,
34:26
but
34:26
we
34:27
had
34:27
that
34:27
place.
34:27
So
34:28
a
34:28
guy,
34:28
a
34:28
professor
34:29
at
34:29
Wayne
34:29
said,
34:29
you
34:30
got,
34:30
you
34:30
know,
34:30
you're
34:30
on
34:30
the
34:31
road
34:31
all
34:31
the
34:31
time.
34:32
Go
34:32
to
34:32
Munich,
34:33
would
34:33
you?
34:34
And
34:34
take
34:34
your
34:35
music
34:35
with
34:35
you.
34:35
So
34:36
I
34:36
took
34:36
the
34:36
Baptist
34:37
minister
34:37
who's
34:38
a
34:38
great
34:38
blues
34:38
player,
34:39
pretty
34:39
famous
34:40
around
34:40
here
34:40
too.
34:41
And
34:42
we
34:42
did,
34:42
we
34:42
started
34:43
doing
34:43
some
34:43
shows
34:44
there
34:44
and
34:44
then
34:45
they
34:45
put
34:45
me
34:45
on
34:46
a
34:46
tour
34:48
where
34:48
I
34:48
did
34:48
all
34:48
of
34:49
Germany
34:50
over
34:50
kind
34:51
of
34:51
our
34:51
Thanksgiving
34:52
break
34:52
or
34:52
whatever,
34:53
and
34:54
that
34:54
was
34:54
through
34:54
the
34:55
State
34:55
Department.
34:56
And
34:56
then
34:56
you
34:56
met
34:56
and
34:57
you
34:57
met
34:57
the
34:57
Beatles
34:58
and
34:58
the
34:58
rest
34:58
is
34:59
history,
34:59
right?
35:01
I
35:01
never
35:02
met
35:02
any
35:02
of
35:02
the
35:02
Beatles,
35:03
but
35:04
I
35:04
have
35:05
met
35:05
many
35:05
people
35:06
from
35:06
their
35:06
camp
35:07
because
35:08
I
35:08
used
35:08
to
35:08
teach
35:08
the
35:09
Beatles
35:09
at
35:09
Wayne
35:09
State
35:10
and
35:10
take
35:10
my
35:11
students
35:11
over
35:11
to
35:11
England
35:12
for
35:12
spring
35:12
break.
35:13
Oh,
35:14
wow,
35:14
that's
35:14
cool.
35:15
Yeah,
35:15
yeah.
35:16
So
35:17
through
35:17
that
35:17
kind
35:17
of
35:18
process,
35:18
I
35:18
met
35:18
a
35:19
lot
35:19
of
35:19
beetle
35:19
people
35:20
and
35:20
they
35:20
would,
35:21
when
35:21
they
35:21
were
35:21
here,
35:22
would
35:22
come
35:22
to
35:22
class
35:22
and
35:23
as
35:24
close
35:24
as
35:24
any
35:24
student's
35:25
gonna
35:25
get
35:25
to
35:25
a
35:26
Beatle.
35:26
So
35:27
Afghanistan,
35:27
you
35:28
write
35:28
in
35:28
your
35:28
book
35:28
about
35:29
how
35:29
you
35:29
are
35:30
surrounded
35:30
by
35:30
a
35:31
failance
35:31
of
35:31
security.
35:32
Tanks,
35:33
helicopter
35:33
gunships
35:35
take
35:35
you
35:35
into
35:35
these
35:36
far
35:36
flung
35:36
villages.
35:37
This
35:37
is
35:37
2012
35:38
and
35:38
it
35:38
was
35:38
fairly
35:39
intense,
35:39
security
35:40
wise.
35:41
Yeah,
35:41
because
35:42
here's
35:42
why
35:43
I
35:43
was
35:44
in.
35:44
I
35:45
went
35:45
over
35:45
to
35:46
Israel.
35:46
I
35:46
always
35:47
wanted
35:47
to
35:47
see
35:47
Israel.
35:49
And
35:49
again,
35:50
everyone
35:50
thinks
35:50
I'm
35:51
Jewish,
35:51
but
35:51
I'm
35:51
not
35:52
even
35:52
there.
35:52
They
35:52
do,
35:53
but.
35:53
And
35:53
they're
35:54
not,
35:54
most
35:54
of
35:55
them.
35:55
I
35:55
went
35:55
over
35:56
there
35:56
just
35:57
because
35:57
I
35:57
wanted
35:57
to
35:58
see
35:58
Israel,
35:59
being
35:59
religious
36:00
and
36:00
all
36:00
that
36:00
sort
36:01
of
36:01
thing.
36:01
And
36:01
so
36:02
I
36:02
contacted
36:03
a
36:03
couple
36:03
of
36:03
people
36:05
and
36:05
one
36:06
of
36:06
the
36:06
persons
36:07
worked
36:07
for
36:07
the
36:07
State
36:08
Department
36:08
and
36:08
they
36:09
said,
36:10
yeah,
36:10
we'll
36:10
give
36:10
you,
36:11
we
36:11
can
36:11
get
36:11
you
36:11
a
36:11
gig
36:12
at
36:12
a
36:12
place,
36:13
a
36:13
place
36:13
in
36:13
the
36:13
heart
36:14
of
36:14
Jerusalem
36:15
and
36:16
they
36:16
have
36:16
poets
36:16
and
36:17
stuff.
36:17
So
36:18
they
36:18
booked
36:18
me
36:19
for
36:19
that
36:19
and
36:20
then
36:20
they
36:20
said,
36:20
well,
36:20
can
36:20
you
36:21
do
36:21
a
36:21
workshop
36:22
too?
36:22
Which
36:22
I
36:23
do
36:23
too.
36:24
And
36:24
I
36:24
did
36:24
one,
36:24
but
36:25
it
36:25
was
36:25
all
36:25
Arab
36:26
kids
36:27
and
36:28
I
36:28
got
36:28
them
36:29
reciting
36:29
poetry,
36:31
which
36:31
happened
36:32
in
36:32
Afghanistan
36:33
too,
36:33
and
36:34
jumping
36:34
around
36:34
to
36:35
music.
36:36
And
36:36
so
36:37
they
36:37
came
36:37
up
36:37
to
36:37
me
36:38
after,
36:38
they
36:38
said,
36:38
you
36:39
got
36:39
to
36:39
come
36:39
back
36:39
here
36:40
because
36:41
we
36:41
have
36:41
never
36:41
been
36:42
able
36:42
to
36:42
communicate
36:43
with
36:43
these
36:43
kids
36:44
before
36:45
and
36:45
they
36:45
wouldn't
36:46
stop
36:46
with
36:47
you.
36:47
So
36:48
that
36:48
began
36:49
my
36:49
ventures
36:50
into
36:50
Israel
36:51
after
36:51
Israel,
36:51
after
36:52
doing
36:52
a
36:52
lot
36:52
of
36:52
stuff
36:53
in
36:53
Israel
36:53
that
36:54
grew
36:54
and
36:54
grew
36:54
and
36:55
grew.
36:55
The
36:56
people
36:56
in
36:56
Palestine
36:57
who
36:57
work
36:58
the
36:58
State
36:58
Department,
36:58
which
36:59
is
36:59
in
37:00
Jerusalem
37:01
now,
37:01
unfortunately,
37:01
unfortunately,
37:02
where
37:02
Trump
37:03
moved
37:04
the
37:04
embassy
37:05
out
37:05
of
37:05
Tel
37:05
Aviv.
37:06
But
37:06
that
37:06
place
37:07
they're
37:07
at
37:07
now
37:07
used
37:08
to
37:08
be
37:09
for
37:09
the
37:09
West
37:09
Bank.
37:10
And
37:11
they
37:11
called
37:11
up
37:12
and
37:12
said,
37:12
hey,
37:12
we
37:12
want
37:12
some
37:13
of
37:13
this
37:13
action
37:13
with
37:14
this
37:14
ML
37:14
Evilr
37:15
guy
37:15
too.
37:16
And
37:16
so
37:17
I
37:17
started
37:17
doing
37:17
the
37:18
west
37:18
bank
37:19
and
37:19
Ramallah,
37:20
Beshawarma
37:22
anywhere
37:23
and
37:24
a
37:24
lot
37:24
of
37:24
places
37:25
around
37:26
there
37:26
for
37:26
the
37:27
State
37:27
Department.
37:28
And
37:28
I
37:29
thought,
37:29
well,
37:29
you
37:30
know,
37:30
how
37:30
dangerous
37:31
can
37:31
it
37:31
be?
37:32
You
37:32
know,
37:32
I
37:32
was
37:32
of
37:33
course
37:33
I
37:33
was
37:33
in
37:34
these
37:34
black
37:34
sedans
37:35
with
37:35
guys
37:36
with
37:36
earpieces,
37:37
driving
37:37
everywhere.
37:38
You
37:38
did
37:38
make
37:38
a
37:38
wrong
37:39
turn
37:39
into
37:39
Syria
37:39
at
37:40
a
37:40
bad
37:40
time.
37:41
I
37:41
did.
37:41
I
37:42
did.
37:42
That
37:43
was
37:43
with
37:43
Eminem's
37:44
publisher,
37:45
who
37:45
may
37:45
be
37:45
listening
37:45
right
37:46
now
37:46
because
37:47
he's
37:47
out
37:47
in
37:47
Laurel
37:48
Canyon.
37:48
Yeah,
37:49
we're
37:49
driving.
37:49
I
37:50
said,
37:50
hey,
37:50
Joel,
37:50
I
37:51
think
37:51
we
37:51
just
37:51
crossed
37:52
a
37:52
line
37:52
here.
37:53
And
37:53
we
37:53
had
37:54
to
37:54
turn
37:54
around
37:54
real
37:55
quick
37:55
and
37:55
get
37:55
out
37:55
of
37:55
there.
37:55
What
37:56
was
37:56
the
37:56
State
37:56
Department's
37:57
interest
37:57
in
37:58
having
37:58
a
37:58
poet
37:59
from
37:59
Detroit
38:00
going
38:00
to
38:00
remote
38:01
villages
38:01
in
38:02
Afghanistan
38:02
to
38:02
talk
38:03
to
38:03
the
38:03
kids?
38:04
What
38:04
was
38:04
their
38:04
reasoning?
38:05
Their
38:05
reasoning
38:06
was.
38:07
Well,
38:07
in
38:07
Israel,
38:08
for
38:08
one,
38:08
is
38:09
Bush
38:09
was
38:09
the
38:10
president
38:11
for
38:11
in
38:12
those
38:12
early
38:12
days,
38:13
and
38:13
America
38:14
had
38:14
a
38:14
bad
38:14
image,
38:15
and
38:15
they
38:16
thought
38:16
cultural
38:17
programming
38:17
for
38:18
people
38:18
would
38:18
break
38:19
down
38:19
barriers.
38:20
And
38:21
I
38:21
guess
38:21
that's
38:22
what
38:22
they
38:22
did
38:23
for
38:23
a
38:23
long
38:23
time.
38:24
Well,
38:24
we
38:24
certainly
38:24
fixed
38:25
that
38:25
problem,
38:25
didn't
38:25
we?
38:26
Yeah,
38:26
right.
38:27
Exactly.
38:29
Listen,
38:29
I
38:29
spent
38:29
a
38:30
lot
38:30
of
38:30
time
38:30
over
38:30
there.
38:31
This
38:31
was
38:31
not
38:31
ending
38:32
in
38:32
our
38:33
lifetime
38:33
anyway.
38:34
But
38:35
I
38:35
thought,
38:35
how
38:35
dangerous
38:36
can
38:36
this
38:36
be?
38:37
Then
38:38
I
38:38
got
38:38
home
38:38
from
38:39
there
38:39
one
38:40
winter
38:41
in
38:41
November.
38:42
I
38:42
got
38:42
a
38:43
call
38:43
from
38:43
the
38:43
State
38:43
Department
38:44
and
38:45
here
38:45
at
38:46
home,
38:46
and
38:46
I
38:46
picked
38:46
up
38:47
the
38:47
phone,
38:47
and
38:47
they
38:47
said,
38:48
we
38:48
have
38:48
a
38:48
mission
38:49
for
38:49
you
38:49
if
38:49
you
38:50
accept
38:50
it.
38:50
And
38:51
I
38:51
said,
38:51
what's
38:52
that?
38:52
And
38:53
they
38:53
said,
38:53
afghanistan.
38:54
And
38:55
I
38:55
said,
38:55
well,
38:55
hell,
38:56
yeah,
38:56
I'll
38:56
go
38:56
to
38:57
Afghanistan.
38:58
How
38:58
hard
38:58
can
38:58
it
38:58
be?
38:59
How
38:59
much
38:59
trouble?
39:01
Well,
39:01
it
39:02
was
39:02
so
39:02
much
39:02
trouble
39:03
that
39:03
I
39:03
didn't
39:03
even
39:04
tell
39:04
my
39:04
wife
39:04
what
39:05
I
39:05
was
39:05
doing
39:05
over
39:06
there.
39:06
Goodness.
39:07
Because
39:07
I
39:07
would
39:08
freak
39:08
her
39:08
out.
39:08
You
39:09
know,
39:09
I
39:09
mean,
39:09
I
39:10
get
39:10
off
39:10
the
39:10
plane
39:11
there
39:12
and
39:12
the
39:12
embassy
39:12
people
39:13
pick
39:13
me
39:13
up.
39:13
We're
39:13
driving
39:14
to
39:14
town,
39:14
and
39:15
all
39:15
these
39:15
people
39:16
have
39:16
machine
39:16
guns
39:17
and
39:17
they're
39:17
riding
39:18
in
39:18
carts
39:18
with
39:19
horses
39:19
pulling
39:20
them.
39:20
And.
39:20
And
39:20
I
39:21
just
39:21
thought,
39:21
man,
39:21
I'm
39:22
not
39:22
in
39:22
Kansas
39:23
anymore
39:24
at
39:24
all.
39:25
It
39:25
wasn't
39:25
too
39:25
distant
39:26
from
39:26
Old
39:26
Detroit,
39:27
I'd
39:27
imagine.
39:27
Yeah,
39:28
right,
39:28
right.
39:29
But
39:29
I
39:29
thought,
39:29
this.
39:30
This
39:30
is
39:30
something
39:31
else
39:31
now.
39:31
I
39:31
enjoyed
39:32
it,
39:32
and
39:32
it
39:32
was
39:33
good.
39:34
I
39:34
mean,
39:34
I
39:34
met
39:34
a
39:34
lot
39:35
of
39:35
really
39:35
interesting
39:36
people.
39:36
I
39:36
met
39:36
those
39:37
women
39:37
who
39:38
write
39:38
in
39:38
secret
39:39
over
39:40
there.
39:40
They're
39:40
kind
39:40
of
39:40
known.
39:41
And
39:41
we
39:42
went
39:42
into
39:42
a
39:42
compound
39:43
that
39:43
we
39:43
had
39:43
to
39:44
go
39:44
in,
39:44
and
39:44
they
39:44
locked
39:45
the
39:45
gates
39:45
after
39:46
you
39:46
and
39:46
the
39:47
girls
39:47
came
39:47
in.
39:48
And,
39:48
you
39:49
know,
39:49
as
39:49
soon
39:49
as
39:49
they
39:49
got
39:49
on
39:50
the
39:50
compound,
39:50
they
39:51
whipped
39:51
off
39:51
their
39:52
hijabs
39:53
or
39:53
their
39:53
Afghanistan
39:55
burkas.
39:56
And
39:56
then,
39:56
you
39:57
know,
39:57
they
39:58
started
39:58
writing
39:58
poetry,
39:59
and
39:59
they
39:59
wrote
39:59
really
40:00
great
40:00
poetry.
40:00
We
40:00
spent
40:01
a
40:01
whole
40:01
day
40:01
together
40:01
there.
40:02
They
40:02
got
40:03
by
40:03
their
40:03
Birkenstocks.
40:04
Yeah.
40:04
Where
40:05
are
40:05
those
40:05
women
40:06
now,
40:06
given
40:06
the
40:07
politics
40:07
over
40:07
there?
40:08
Well,
40:08
you
40:08
know
40:08
what
40:08
was
40:08
really
40:09
interesting
40:09
about
40:10
that,
40:10
Ted
40:10
Is
40:11
when
40:11
we
40:11
were
40:11
in
40:11
that
40:12
workshop,
40:12
they
40:12
started
40:13
talking.
40:13
They
40:14
were
40:14
starting
40:14
to.
40:15
A
40:15
few
40:15
of
40:15
them
40:15
protest
40:16
the.
40:17
What
40:17
are
40:17
they
40:18
called
40:18
again?
40:18
I'm
40:18
forgetting
40:19
them.
40:19
The
40:19
Taliban.
40:20
Sharia
40:20
law.
40:20
The
40:21
Taliban.
40:22
And
40:23
one
40:23
of
40:23
them
40:23
ended
40:24
up
40:24
on
40:24
the
40:24
front
40:25
page
40:26
of
40:26
the
40:27
Guardian
40:27
in
40:28
England
40:29
at
40:29
some
40:30
protest.
40:30
And
40:31
she
40:31
showed
40:31
me
40:31
the
40:32
picture
40:32
and
40:33
she
40:33
was
40:33
a
40:33
young,
40:34
you
40:34
know,
40:34
kind
40:34
of
40:35
teenager
40:36
girl.
40:36
And
40:36
I
40:37
had
40:37
a
40:37
teenager
40:38
girl
40:38
at
40:39
the
40:39
time.
40:39
And
40:39
I
40:39
just
40:40
thought,
40:40
wow,
40:41
what
40:41
did
40:41
your
40:41
dad
40:42
say?
40:42
And
40:43
she
40:43
said,
40:43
well,
40:43
he
40:44
supports
40:44
what
40:44
I
40:45
do.
40:45
What
40:45
does
40:45
your
40:46
mother
40:46
say?
40:46
Not
40:47
so
40:47
much.
40:48
And
40:49
only
40:49
thing
40:49
I
40:49
can
40:49
tell
40:50
you
40:50
is
40:50
it's
40:51
in
40:51
my
40:51
poetry
40:51
book.
40:52
There's
40:52
a
40:52
whole
40:52
section.
40:53
It's
40:53
fascinating.
40:54
We
40:54
have
40:55
just
40:55
a
40:55
couple
40:55
minutes
40:56
left.
40:56
We
40:57
wanted
40:57
your
40:57
take
40:58
on
40:58
Detroit.
40:59
We
41:00
hear
41:00
that
41:00
there's
41:00
a
41:00
renaissance
41:01
happening,
41:01
sort
41:02
of
41:02
a
41:02
cool
41:02
scene
41:03
downtown.
41:04
Oh
41:04
yeah.
41:04
What's
41:05
happening
41:05
in
41:06
Detroit
41:06
from
41:06
your
41:07
perspective
41:07
as
41:08
an
41:08
OG
41:09
poet?
41:09
Well,
41:09
one,
41:10
when
41:10
I
41:10
first
41:11
started
41:11
poetry,
41:12
pay
41:12
people
41:12
to
41:13
go
41:13
to
41:13
a
41:13
poetry
41:13
reading.
41:14
But.
41:14
And
41:14
that's
41:15
all
41:15
changed.
41:15
But
41:16
Detroit
41:17
has
41:17
really.
41:18
I
41:19
think
41:19
it's
41:19
the
41:19
greatest
41:20
place
41:20
now.
41:20
It's.
41:20
Maybe
41:20
it's
41:21
where
41:21
I'm
41:21
from
41:21
and
41:21
I
41:22
mentioned
41:22
it
41:22
somewhere
41:23
in
41:23
my
41:23
book
41:24
and
41:24
I've
41:24
always
41:25
said
41:25
this
41:26
is
41:26
a
41:26
bad
41:27
day
41:27
in
41:27
Detroit
41:28
is
41:28
better
41:28
than
41:28
a
41:29
good
41:29
day
41:29
anywhere
41:30
in
41:30
the
41:31
world.
41:32
And
41:32
I
41:33
feel
41:33
that
41:33
way.
41:33
And
41:33
of
41:34
course
41:34
I
41:34
teach
41:34
at
41:34
a
41:35
university
41:36
is
41:36
right
41:36
in
41:36
the
41:37
middle
41:37
of
41:37
Detroit.
41:38
It's
41:39
in
41:39
the
41:39
inner
41:39
city
41:40
and
41:40
it's
41:40
always
41:41
been.
41:41
There's
41:41
been
41:41
there
41:41
since
41:42
1868.
41:43
And
41:43
you
41:44
know,
41:44
it's
41:44
just.
41:45
I
41:45
just
41:45
relish
41:46
it.
41:46
Is
41:47
it
41:47
coming
41:47
back?
41:47
Oh
41:48
yeah.
41:49
Even
41:49
the
41:50
campus
41:50
where
41:50
I
41:51
teach,
41:52
back
41:52
when
41:52
I
41:52
started
41:53
there,
41:54
students
41:54
wouldn't
41:55
go
41:55
two
41:55
streets
41:56
away
41:56
from
41:57
the
41:57
campus.
41:58
Now
41:58
people
41:59
park
41:59
there
41:59
and
41:59
walk
42:00
all
42:00
the
42:00
way
42:00
down
42:01
through
42:01
what
42:01
used
42:01
to
42:02
be
42:02
pushers
42:03
and
42:03
prostitutes
42:05
and
42:05
cheap
42:05
bars
42:06
and
42:06
stuff.
42:07
Now
42:07
everybody
42:08
walks
42:08
down
42:08
to
42:08
Little
42:09
Caesar's
42:09
arena
42:10
and
42:10
they
42:10
park
42:10
at
42:11
Wayne,
42:11
which
42:11
is,
42:12
you
42:12
know,
42:12
a
42:12
healthy
42:12
little
42:13
walk,
42:13
but
42:13
they
42:14
don't
42:14
think
42:14
anything
42:14
of
42:15
it.
42:15
That's
42:15
good
42:15
news.
42:16
As
42:16
a
42:16
professor
42:17
of
42:17
English
42:17
and
42:17
poetry,
42:18
do
42:18
you
42:18
see
42:19
firsthand
42:19
evidence
42:19
of
42:20
what's
42:20
being
42:20
discussed
42:21
as
42:21
a
42:21
post
42:21
literate
42:22
society?
42:23
Well,
42:23
I
42:23
do,
42:24
because
42:24
another
42:25
thing
42:25
at
42:25
Wayne
42:25
State,
42:26
Creative
42:26
writing
42:27
is
42:27
the
42:27
biggest
42:27
wing
42:28
in
42:29
the
42:29
English
42:29
department,
42:30
which
42:30
is
42:30
irritating
42:31
all
42:31
the
42:31
literature
42:32
teachers
42:32
because
42:33
our
42:33
classes
42:33
are
42:34
fill
42:34
up
42:34
like
42:35
right
42:35
away
42:36
in
42:36
early
42:37
registration
42:37
and
42:38
the
42:38
other
42:38
people
42:38
are
42:38
like
42:39
begging
42:39
people
42:39
to
42:40
take
42:40
their
42:40
classes.
42:40
So
42:41
they're,
42:41
they're
42:41
kind
42:41
of
42:41
mad
42:42
at
42:42
us.
42:42
But
42:43
the
42:43
whole
42:43
creative
42:44
scene
42:45
in
42:45
Detroit
42:45
has
42:46
just
42:46
really
42:46
flourished
42:47
and
42:48
blossomed.
42:49
And
42:50
young
42:50
people
42:50
today,
42:51
this
42:51
is
42:51
why
42:52
I'm
42:52
still
42:52
teaching
42:53
I
42:53
mean,
42:53
I've
42:53
been
42:53
at
42:53
Wayne
42:54
almost
42:54
47
42:55
years.
42:55
I
42:55
know
42:56
I
42:56
look
42:56
young
42:56
on
42:57
the
42:57
radio.
42:58
You
42:58
look
42:58
like
42:58
Santa
42:59
Claus.
43:00
I
43:00
look
43:00
like
43:00
Santa
43:01
Claus.
43:02
The
43:02
young
43:02
people,
43:03
Gen
43:03
Z,
43:04
I
43:04
love
43:05
those
43:05
kids.
43:06
Are
43:06
they
43:06
post
43:07
social
43:07
media
43:08
zombies?
43:09
They
43:09
are
43:10
somewhat.
43:10
But
43:10
not
43:11
like
43:11
what
43:11
most
43:11
people
43:12
in
43:12
our
43:12
generation
43:13
think.
43:14
They're
43:14
just
43:15
work
43:15
on
43:15
a
43:15
different
43:16
level.
43:17
Like
43:17
I
43:17
tell
43:17
them,
43:17
use
43:18
your
43:18
computer.
43:18
You
43:19
got
43:19
your
43:19
computer
43:19
in
43:20
your
43:20
pocket.
43:21
That's
43:21
your
43:21
phone.
43:22
When
43:22
you
43:23
hear
43:23
me
43:23
say
43:23
something
43:24
or
43:24
any
43:24
teacher
43:25
say
43:25
something,
43:25
you
43:25
don't
43:26
know,
43:26
look
43:27
it
43:27
up.
43:27
And
43:27
they're
43:28
used
43:28
to
43:28
that.
43:29
So
43:29
they
43:29
do
43:29
have
43:29
a
43:29
different
43:30
kind
43:30
of
43:30
attention
43:31
span.
43:32
But
43:32
they're
43:32
hip
43:33
kids,
43:33
man.
43:34
And
43:34
Covid
43:35
made
43:35
them
43:36
really
43:36
appreciate
43:37
to
43:37
be
43:37
in
43:37
a
43:37
room
43:38
with
43:38
people
43:39
because
43:39
once
43:39
Covid
43:40
hit
43:40
and
43:41
then
43:41
I
43:41
had
43:41
to
43:41
switch
43:42
to
43:42
online
43:42
and
43:42
all
43:43
that.
43:43
But
43:44
afterwards,
43:45
classes,
43:46
I
43:46
don't
43:46
have
43:46
many
43:47
students
43:47
miss
43:47
classes
43:48
at
43:48
all.
43:49
That's
43:49
so
43:49
good
43:50
to
43:50
hear.
43:50
It's
43:51
so
43:51
wonderful
43:52
to
43:52
hear.
43:54
It's
43:54
what
43:54
I
43:54
think.
43:55
I
43:55
believe
43:55
it's
43:56
true.
43:56
I
43:57
was
43:57
just
43:57
telling
43:57
my
43:57
students
43:58
the
43:58
other
43:58
day
43:58
the
43:58
same
43:59
kind
43:59
of
44:00
thing.
44:00
They
44:00
learn
44:01
differently
44:01
than
44:02
we
44:02
did.
44:03
We
44:03
learned
44:04
in
44:04
college.
44:05
A
44:05
professor
44:05
came
44:06
in
44:06
and
44:06
gave
44:07
a
44:07
lecture
44:07
and
44:07
we
44:07
scribbled
44:08
notes
44:08
and
44:09
did
44:09
all
44:09
that
44:10
kind
44:10
of
44:10
stuff.
44:10
They
44:11
learn
44:11
differently
44:12
than
44:12
that.
44:12
And
44:12
those
44:12
old
44:13
methods
44:13
don't
44:13
work.
44:14
That's
44:15
wonderful
44:15
to
44:15
see
44:16
new
44:16
generations
44:16
come
44:17
up.
44:17
Of
44:17
course
44:17
they're
44:17
gonna
44:18
be
44:18
different.
44:18
Emil
44:19
Lieber,
44:19
thank
44:20
you
44:20
so
44:20
much
44:20
for
44:21
coming
44:21
on
44:21
the
44:22
Sexy
44:22
Boomer
44:22
show
44:22
today
44:23
with
44:23
us.
44:23
Oh,
44:24
thank
44:24
you,
44:24
God.
44:24
Check
44:25
out
44:25
his
44:25
new
44:25
book
44:26
just
44:26
released,
44:26
Hound
44:27
Dog,
44:27
A
44:27
Poet's
44:28
Memoir
44:28
of
44:28
Rock,
44:28
Revolution
44:29
and
44:29
Redemption
44:30
about
44:30
growing
44:30
up.
44:31
We
44:31
just
44:31
scratched
44:32
the
44:32
surface
44:32
his
44:33
extraordinary
44:34
story.
44:34
Thank
44:35
you
44:35
for
44:35
sharing
44:35
something
44:36
with
44:36
us,.
44:36
ML
44:36
thanks
44:37
for
44:37
listening
44:37
to
44:38
the
44:38
Sexy
44:38
Boomer
44:38
Show.
44:39
Check
44:39
us
44:39
out@SexyBoomershow.com
44:41
for
44:41
all
44:41
of
44:41
our
44:41
episodes.
44:42
And
44:42
we
44:42
have
44:42
a
44:42
brand
44:43
new
44:43
Facebook
44:44
page,
44:44
please.
44:45
And
44:45
we
44:45
have
44:45
a
44:45
newsletter.
44:46
Come
44:46
to
44:46
our
44:46
website
44:46
and
44:47
sign
44:47
up
44:47
for
44:47
the
44:47
newsletter
44:48
and
44:48
we'll
44:48
keep
44:48
you
44:48
in
44:48
the
44:49
know
44:49
on
44:49
all
44:49
the
44:49
things
44:49
that
44:50
are
44:50
happening.
44:50
Send
44:51
us
44:51
a
44:51
us
44:51
an
44:51
email
44:51
at
44:51
info
44:52
at
44:52
sexyboomershow.
44:53
Com.
44:53
See
44:53
you
44:54
in
44:54
the
44:54
canyon,
44:54
Phil.
44:55
You
44:56
bet,
44:56
ML
44:57
See
44:57
you.
44:57
Let
44:57
me
44:57
know
44:57
when
44:57
you're
44:58
out
44:58
here.
44:58
Okay,
44:58
I
44:59
will.
44:59
Thanks.