Latest / My Favorite Things / My Favorite Things Episode 17: Anna Brones

Transcript

My Favorite Things Episode 17: Anna Brones · My Favorite Things

0:01
SPEAKER_01: Ana Bronis, thanks for being here.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: I had a hard time getting a list down to five items.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: So I'm excited.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about it.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
0:14
That's the point of the show is that all the emotional labor is
0:17
on the guest and not me.
0:18
SPEAKER_01: So that's pretty wonderful for me.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us a little bit about who you are currently?
0:26
I feel like you've changed quite a bit since we met,
0:30
gosh,
0:30
what,
0:31
14 years ago,
0:32
15 years ago?
0:33
SPEAKER_01: Oh, so long ago, yeah.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay,
0:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to try to not go down 10 rabbit holes,
0:38
but I was just going to say I do remember the first time we met
0:40
for coffee.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: on Hawthorne at Albina Press.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: Albina Press.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: It was many years ago.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, whatever.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: People don't care about that.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, who am I?
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh, let's see.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm a human on this planet.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: I, um, I live in the Pacific Northwest.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: I live in Western Washington.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: I live in the town that I grew up in,
1:05
SPEAKER_00: which is a small little rural town on a peninsula in the Salish Sea.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:11
SPEAKER_00: And I am currently in my studio,
1:15
SPEAKER_00: which is on my parents' property,
1:19
SPEAKER_00: which my parents live in the same house that I grew up in,
1:21
SPEAKER_00: a yellow house in the woods.
1:24
And I have a little studio that my husband built me that's on
1:27
the property.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: So that's where I'm right now, currently.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: And I, yeah, go ahead.
1:33
SPEAKER_01: I was going to say, what do you do for work, capitalism?
1:36
SPEAKER_01: What do I do for work?
1:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I was getting there.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: So I'm in my studio.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: So I am for work.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: I am a writer and an artist.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: So I am currently I'm working on a book,
1:49
which needs to be finished in a couple of months and is
1:53
hopefully going to be out
1:54
SPEAKER_00: next summer.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: That's all about cold water and cold water swimming.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: And then I also work as a paper cut artist.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: So I cut pieces of paper.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, some people draw, some people paint, and I cut pieces of paper.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: So that's probably the two things that people would know me for.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: I also write a weekly newsletter called Creative Fuel.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, those are the main things right now.
2:21
But yeah,
2:21
certainly I've done a whole variety of creative things over my
2:28
career.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: But I've been working for myself for a long time, so I don't use Slack.
2:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: That's the synopsis.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: Non-slack user.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, your newsletter has like 20,000 subscribers, too.
2:41
SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
2:43
SPEAKER_01: You don't count.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: You're like, I don't know.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: I think it's 22.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's 22,000-ish.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: But,
2:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
2:52
those subscribers are dropping off like flies these days
2:55
because everyone's
2:56
SPEAKER_00: overwhelmed by newsletters.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure it'll be...
3:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure it'll be much less in a month's time.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: You think it's not you?
3:04
SPEAKER_01: You think it's just newsletters?
3:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it could be me.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: All the offensive stuff you say on a weekly message basis.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: People just hate my work.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: It could be that.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it could be.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Well,
3:17
SPEAKER_01: as you know,
3:18
SPEAKER_01: this show is called My Favorite Things,
3:20
SPEAKER_01: so I've asked you to make a list of five of your favorite things,
3:24
SPEAKER_01: creative works throughout your life,
3:26
SPEAKER_01: and we're going to let you do six.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, I think that's fine.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: I just your first one is Swedish children's books.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: And you said you have two authors.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, OK, we can do two.
3:39
But then I'm like,
3:40
what if somebody just says books is one of my favorite five
3:44
favorite things?
3:44
SPEAKER_01: I know.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: It's OK. Let's go with this.
3:47
SPEAKER_00: And I gave you the two authors of the books that I brought today.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: But really, there's a third one in there.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's hard.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Why don't you see if you can shoehorn it in then?
3:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: I will.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: OK.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: Swedish children's books So,
4:02
SPEAKER_01: sure,
4:02
do you want to go by author and kind of talk about when you
4:06
discovered them or when
4:07
SPEAKER_01: they found you,
4:08
SPEAKER_01: found their way into your hands?
4:10
Yeah,
4:11
so I guess I'll start with my mom is from Sweden and so I grew
4:14
up here in
4:16
in Washington but we only spoke Swedish at home and most of my
4:20
children's books
4:21
were Swedish I think though yeah I think my mom just wanted to
4:24
have a Swedish
4:25
childhood for me in the Pacific Northwest Forest so yeah so I
4:30
and I still have
4:32
quite a few of those in my bookshelf at home it's quite cute to
4:35
look through
4:35
because they're often like they were gifted to me by my
4:38
grandparents or by my
4:39
cousins so you know what it says like to Anna from and that's
4:42
kind of nice but the
4:44
SPEAKER_00: the two
4:45
the two authors that I chose the first one a classic kind of
4:50
iconic Swedish author
4:54
illustrator Elsa Beskul and so a lot of some people in the US
4:58
might recognize her
4:59
because a lot of her books are translated into into English but
5:03
though I brought
5:04
one to even to even show you on camera just in the event that
5:06
like two people watch
5:07
SPEAKER_00: this on video but this is Tom the
5:11
Tomteboken and so this is like the little troll little troll
5:15
book it's like little
5:16
troll forest children and I think this is all of Elsa Besko's
5:21
work is just really I
5:23
don't know it's just it's just really magical and special and a
5:27
lot of it has to do
5:28
with like nature and the forest and I think that they're
5:31
they're very much images
5:32
SPEAKER_00: that feel
5:34
SPEAKER_00: Kind of imprinted in my brain from seeing them,
5:38
SPEAKER_00: but also it's just like how I think about my childhood.
5:40
And so some of the sort of classic illustrations that people
5:44
might recognize are
5:45
there's a lot of these little tiny children with little like
5:48
mushroom hats.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: They're like the toadstool, the red with the white dots.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I think that's...
5:57
those are just like the visuals from my childhood and reading
6:00
those books and I
6:01
think I put also Swedish books children's books on here just
6:04
because I think
6:05
growing up in the US and kind of having this yeah only Swedish
6:09
stuff at home and
6:10
then it always made me feel a little like weird you know as a
6:14
kid like I just had
6:15
different things at my house and other kids did and so I think
6:19
that's something
6:19
SPEAKER_00: that is
6:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just kind of like rooted in who I am and the things that I like.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: And so as I was thinking about my favorite things,
6:27
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking,
6:27
SPEAKER_00: oh,
6:27
that's like definitely part of part of like my own creative
6:31
path in my life.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: And then the other one that I chose was Lena Andersson.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: And she there's this character called Maya.
6:41
And she also wrote Lena Andersson also wrote a really some
6:45
sweet books about a
6:47
SPEAKER_00: character named Linnea,
6:49
SPEAKER_00: who
6:50
also these books that that one has been translated into English
6:53
and that one's
6:53
called Linnea in Monet's Garden but the character Maya is like
6:59
this little girl who
7:00
has like short blonde hair and she's got these like round
7:03
glasses and I never had
7:05
glasses but in general I feel like she's sort of yeah she just
7:09
felt like she looked
7:10
like me when I was little and she's always running around in
7:13
nature just I don't
7:15
SPEAKER_00: know
7:16
just having a nice time she's like in the summer she's always
7:18
barefoot and in the
7:19
winter she's like cozy in her wool sweater forging around in
7:24
the forest and it's
7:26
funny because when I went to my bookshelf to grab these books I
7:28
also realized that
7:31
I had another one that's actually in English but it's the same
7:34
it's the illustrator
7:35
SPEAKER_00: and in the English one Liana wrote it with a poet named Mary Q.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: Steele but it's actually called Anna's Garden Songs
7:45
which is why I'm sure my mother got it for me and when I was
7:48
like paging through I
7:49
was like yes this is the life that I want like there's this
7:53
great illustration of
7:55
her she's wearing a dress made of lettuce leaves which maybe
8:02
sounds weird if you're
8:03
listening but if you look up Lena Andeson's work I think you'll
8:06
I think you'll get
8:07
SPEAKER_00: it anyway it's just sort of this like magical idyllic um
8:13
SPEAKER_00: Nature forest existence, which I think I'm always after, even today.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: Were you,
8:19
SPEAKER_01: did this,
8:21
is this something that also was like kind of your parents were
8:23
taking you out into
8:24
SPEAKER_01: the woods a lot in nature as you were a kid?
8:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I grew up, I mean, my parents' house really is in a forest.
8:32
So now they have,
8:34
they have a neighbor on the property next time where we can see
8:37
that house.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: But when I grew up, like you couldn't see any other houses.
8:41
so it was just the forest and the garden and I'm an only child
8:44
so it was kind of a
8:47
fend for yourself figure out a way to have fun because you know
8:54
and so yeah it was
8:54
just like in the summer always outside and then my dad my dad
8:58
was a mountaineer and
9:01
he grew up in California spent a ton of time like in the high
9:04
Sierras and so we did
9:05
SPEAKER_00: a lot of
9:07
SPEAKER_00: Outdoor activities, you know, in Washington and in the mountains.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: And so I definitely grew up being outside quite a bit.
9:15
Do you remember like any sort of realization that the books you
9:20
had at home and the
9:21
SPEAKER_01: stuff you had at home was way different from other kids?
9:23
SPEAKER_01: Or was it like a moment of like,
9:25
SPEAKER_01: oh gosh,
9:25
SPEAKER_01: there's all these other books that are English or American?
9:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know if it was specifically...
9:34
SPEAKER_00: Like other kids had other things.
9:36
I think it was more,
9:37
I can specifically remember like a real clear emotion.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: When I was in fourth grade,
9:42
SPEAKER_00: I think I flew,
9:45
SPEAKER_00: so we used to,
9:46
my mom and I used to go to Sweden when I was little in the
9:48
summer to stay with my
9:49
SPEAKER_00: grandparents.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: And then in fourth, yeah, I think it was fourth grade, I went by myself.
9:53
SPEAKER_00: So I was just talking about a friend with this the other day.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: Like I was like 11 maybe?
9:59
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: I was whatever, however old you are in fourth grade.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: That'd be like nine or ten probably wouldn't it?
10:05
Yeah I was little and you know you got this actually Google
10:09
searched it I think you
10:10
still get these but you got this like thing to wear around your
10:13
neck that said
10:14
unattended minor and it was like my parents took me to SeaTac
10:20
and like handed me
10:21
off to the flight attendant and then I was like flying from
10:24
SeaTac to Copenhagen to
10:25
SPEAKER_00: then Sweden and um
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
10:28
you're supposed to have sort of like a flight attendant there
10:30
that checks in on
10:31
SPEAKER_00: you,
10:31
SPEAKER_00: make sure you get to the next gate or whatever.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: And something happened.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: And so I got to Copenhagen and somehow I had this memory of like,
10:39
I was just by myself and I had to figure out how to get to my
10:41
gate on my own and I
10:43
did and I was fine but anyway so I like that is wild I know
10:47
it's wild it was the
10:49
90s I don't know it was different but anyway so I went on this
10:52
trip by myself
10:54
stayed with my grandparents and yeah it was just really lovely
10:58
and when I came home
10:59
SPEAKER_00: I specifically remember
11:02
so that would have been in the summer and I specifically
11:03
remember in the fall like
11:05
I came home from school one day and I was just like I just my
11:09
memory is just
11:10
feeling really sad and off and I do remember like crying quite
11:14
a bit and I just
11:15
have a memory of talking about that with my mom and her kind of
11:19
you know asking me
11:19
why I was feeling that way and the sort of takeaway was that
11:23
yeah I felt like I'd
11:24
been in this place that felt like me and part of my identity
11:28
and then I felt like
11:29
SPEAKER_00: none of my little
11:31
friends at school cared or could understand that part of me and
11:35
I just felt
11:36
I just felt different and I felt like here was this part of me
11:39
that it wasn't
11:40
shared or wasn't understood or wasn't appreciated and I think
11:43
that's like my first
11:44
SPEAKER_00: that's my first really clear memory of having that distinct like cultural
11:49
difference I'm feeling and it's Sweden I mean it's not you know
11:53
it's culturally
11:53
different but obviously there's a lot of similarities right
11:56
yeah you know I have
11:57
other friends who've grown up with very different backgrounds
12:00
and then that's a
12:01
SPEAKER_00: whole different ballgame but yeah
12:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, boy, that's interesting.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can't believe that flight story.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: That's amazing at the time.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: But do you think that... We're getting off track here.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Do you think that kind of was an early sort of confidence builder slash
12:19
SPEAKER_01: independence thing for you?
12:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
12:23
SPEAKER_00: like I said,
12:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm an only child,
12:25
SPEAKER_00: so I think I did a lot of things on my own from a very young age.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, certainly traveling younger...
12:33
SPEAKER_00: Even with mom,
12:34
SPEAKER_00: I was on an international flight before I can remember,
12:40
SPEAKER_00: which is also very different from a lot of friends that I grew up with.
12:45
I think traveling by myself is always one of those times when I
12:48
really feel like myself.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: Like I just feel,
12:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
12:55
I feel capable of getting myself from point A to point B and I
12:58
feel like there's
12:58
adventure on the horizon and there's possibility and
13:02
expansiveness and I just
13:04
SPEAKER_00: really,
13:05
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
13:05
SPEAKER_00: I really like that moment.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: You have your little unaccompanied adult lanyards that you get to wear.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: I know.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: I really did Google search it,
13:17
SPEAKER_00: though,
13:17
SPEAKER_00: because I was talking about it with a friend and she was like,
13:19
SPEAKER_00: that seems kind of questionable because it would just make you a target.
13:23
And I went and looked at it and I definitely found they're
13:25
probably AI generated.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: So who knows?
13:27
SPEAKER_00: But I definitely found some photos,
13:29
SPEAKER_00: more modern photos,
13:30
SPEAKER_00: not from the 90s of kids wearing something similar.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: So,
13:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:34
SPEAKER_00: kids are still flying by themselves,
13:35
SPEAKER_00: but I'm sure the rules are a little bit stricter.
13:39
I'm not skeptical at all because I remember seeing the ads that
13:42
say four out of
13:43
SPEAKER_01: five doctors recommend smoking Chesterfields or whatever.
13:47
We've done a lot of questionable things in the past and we
13:50
decided we're not a good
13:50
SPEAKER_01: idea anymore.
13:52
um second item on your list is um this first time anybody's
13:58
brought this up on this
13:59
podcast which is kind of surprising second item is coffee um
14:03
which is also a
14:04
creative work when you think about it yeah do you remember do
14:08
you remember when
14:09
coffee came into your life yeah what age okay I I do
14:13
specifically so I um I went
14:16
SPEAKER_00: and lived in Sweden for a year in high school uh it was my junior year
14:21
And that's when I started drinking coffee because coffee is
14:24
just obviously huge in Sweden.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: And there's Fika, which is the Swedish coffee break.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: And just any time there's a social gathering, there's coffee.
14:32
And I just got kind of sick of being in moments asking for
14:37
something else.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, I don't drink coffee.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Do you have any juice?
14:40
SPEAKER_00: It just got annoying.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: So I just started drinking the coffee.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: And it's been a lifelong love affair ever since.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: That's like 15, 16?
14:50
SPEAKER_00: I was 16.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: 16 years.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 16.
14:54
SPEAKER_01: You came back to the U.S. and you were like, Mom, I drink coffee now?
14:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't really remember how that went.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
15:01
I can't remember if I was drinking coffee my senior year in
15:03
high school with my
15:04
SPEAKER_00: mom,
15:04
SPEAKER_00: but maybe.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I put it on the list.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Well, one, because you and I.
15:08
It just felt like a thing we should talk about because we
15:12
discuss coffee a lot.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: But I was thinking about it as...
15:19
Yeah,
15:20
as a component of something that has kind of contributed to
15:24
your own creative life.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think,
15:26
SPEAKER_00: one,
15:27
SPEAKER_00: like my first big book that I published was about Fika,
15:31
SPEAKER_00: the Swedish coffee break.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: So it definitely has played a role professionally.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: I also, I feel like I kind of
15:41
got more into my writing career I lived in Paris for a few
15:45
years and at the time I
15:46
wrote for a website called Sprudge that was like a specialty
15:49
coffee industry
15:49
website and I and I covered the specialty coffee scene in Paris
15:53
which was kind of
15:54
growing at that time that I was there and I just did a lot of
15:56
writing and I ended
15:57
up working on a self-published book with a photographer friend
16:01
that was called
16:01
SPEAKER_00: Paris Coffee Revolution and yeah so I feel that even my love of coffee um
16:08
has also played out in my creative work too and I think that um
16:13
yeah I obviously
16:14
overthought my list so I thought a lot about why coffee was on
16:17
it but another thing
16:18
that I really like about coffee that I think just relates to
16:21
creative work is it's
16:23
just like um I guess it's just a reminder of how everyday
16:27
routine can become ritual
16:30
and have sort of some meaning or power to it if you decide that
16:34
it has that right
16:36
SPEAKER_00: and um
16:37
SPEAKER_00: Like I have, I usually will buy because I love ceramics.
16:43
So often when I travel,
16:44
if I find a cool,
16:46
you know,
16:47
locally made cup,
16:49
I will buy it.
16:50
And so there is also this moment in the morning of like,
16:52
which cup am I going to use today?
16:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, which like already handmade cup?
16:56
And it's just like a coffee cup collection is just really
16:58
essential to the creative
17:01
SPEAKER_00: like toolbox,
17:02
SPEAKER_00: in my opinion.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:06
I tried to give you a coffee mug that has your husband's last
17:10
name on it,
17:10
coincidentally.
17:14
Honestly,
17:14
the shape of the mug also is not really,
17:16
I just never drank out of it.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, maybe they'll like this.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: Anyway,
17:20
SPEAKER_01: I think I actually have,
17:21
SPEAKER_01: I think if I look in the background,
17:23
SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty sure Fika is sort of above my head.
17:26
over here a copy of the book um yeah do you so does it is it an
17:33
important part of
17:34
your creative uh practice right now like are you there's a guy
17:40
in my writing
17:41
workshop last year who said oh yeah I make myself right every
17:44
morning with my
17:45
SPEAKER_01: coffee I have a one die a dice you know what and he's like I roll it
17:51
SPEAKER_01: After I get my coffee made,
17:52
I roll it and whatever number comes up is the number of minutes
17:54
that I write before
17:55
SPEAKER_01: I can,
17:56
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:57
SPEAKER_01: go about the rest of my day.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: And he's like, sometimes it comes up a one and it's one minute.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, usually I write for more than that, but I set a timer.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: Do you have anything like that?
18:06
Are you just like,
18:07
I have to make coffee or I'm a husk of a human being and cannot
18:11
create?
18:12
SPEAKER_01: What is your...
18:14
I would love to say that I have a really diligent creative
18:17
morning practice,
18:18
SPEAKER_00: but no,
18:19
SPEAKER_00: it's just my creative process is just...
18:21
SPEAKER_00: hot mess,
18:21
and sometimes all things fall to the side when I have to finish
18:26
something for a
18:26
SPEAKER_00: deadline,
18:27
SPEAKER_00: and other times I'm just messing around.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't know.
18:30
I don't have a daily diligent thing like that,
18:32
but certainly I make coffee every day.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: I always joke that my New Year's resolution is to drink coffee every day,
18:38
SPEAKER_00: because that way...
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Well,
18:40
SPEAKER_01: that's a good one.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm nailing it.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: You're just batting a thousand on that.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's great.
18:46
I mean,
18:47
I would say that I like,
18:49
I usually have,
18:51
I think I drink less coffee than people think.
18:53
I talk a big coffee game,
18:54
but I think I don't actually drink as much as people think I
18:57
do.
18:57
But I usually have a cup,
19:01
like I have tea in the morning first and then usually have a
19:04
cup.
19:04
with breakfast but I like to not have too much at breakfast
19:07
because I really love
19:08
to be drinking coffee like when I finally get to my computer or
19:12
my notebook to
19:13
start work so I really want I'd rather have like a smaller cup
19:18
of coffee with
19:18
breakfast to then be able to have a slightly bigger one when I
19:23
sit down and do work
19:24
because there is something just really lovely about that that
19:27
first part of the day
19:29
SPEAKER_00: you have your coffee
19:30
SPEAKER_00: And you haven't,
19:31
SPEAKER_00: like,
19:32
SPEAKER_00: if I've been really diligent and haven't looked at my email yet,
19:35
SPEAKER_00: listened to the radio,
19:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:36
if I've done all the things I know I need to do to not flood my
19:38
brain with external
19:40
SPEAKER_00: stuff,
19:41
SPEAKER_00: that's like a really sweet moment where you just,
19:44
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
19:44
SPEAKER_00: I love that,
19:46
SPEAKER_00: that time.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, that lasts for like 10 minutes.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: And then,
19:50
SPEAKER_00: and then,
19:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:51
then you get into like third cup of coffee territory and then
19:54
it's kind of downhill
19:54
SPEAKER_00: from there,
19:55
SPEAKER_00: but.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: No, I know.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: Hey, you get 10 minutes.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: That's pretty great.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: It's pretty great.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: Item number three on your list.
20:09
This is the second time this album has come up and at least the
20:12
third time this
20:14
SPEAKER_01: musical group has come up.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: Daft Punk Alive.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: Is it actually Alive 2007 or is it Alive?
20:21
SPEAKER_00: It's Alive 2007.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: Daft Punk Alive 2007.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: Did they make a version that was in the studio?
20:29
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: I should know.
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm not the Daft Punk person here.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: What's going on in your life when you discover this album?
20:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:39
So I actually don't remember specifically when I heard that
20:42
album,
20:43
but Daft Punk for me was a...
20:46
SPEAKER_00: So I mentioned I lived in Sweden for year in high school, and...
20:48
When I was there,
20:49
my host brother actually gifted me one of the Daft Punk albums
20:55
on CD.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: It made me feel cool, I guess, coming home, listening to this cool stuff.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: At the time,
21:08
SPEAKER_00: we had a radio station that still exists here called C89.5,
21:12
SPEAKER_00: and they just played a lot of electronica dance-type music.
21:18
that was just not anything that my high school friends were
21:20
listening to so I do
21:21
remember senior year making a lot of mixtapes from that radio
21:25
and there definitely
21:26
was a lot of Daft Punk on those mixtapes and so Daft Punk for
21:29
me was always the oh
21:31
here's this like cool group that I like and the music makes me
21:36
feel good and not a
21:38
SPEAKER_00: lot of my other friends are listening to it quite yet I don't know um
21:42
and then the Alive album I don't know that's like in my early
21:46
20s when I lived in
21:46
Portland and I don't remember who originally put me onto it but
21:50
I do remember that
21:52
it was like it would come up in conversation and it was kind of
21:55
a if you know you
21:56
know vibe like if somebody brings it up you're like oh yeah
22:01
that album and just
22:03
everybody seems to have kind of a yeah like a relationship to
22:07
it or it makes them
22:08
SPEAKER_00: feel a certain way and for me it's a
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Like that album is just reliably,
22:15
SPEAKER_00: I can't put it on if I'm writing because there's,
22:18
SPEAKER_00: I just,
22:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm just repeating like,
22:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:22
SPEAKER_00: their lyrics that they repeat for like 10 minutes on repeat.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I can't really listen to when I write, but if I have to, um,
22:29
SPEAKER_00: And I mean writing, like writing on a book or something.
22:31
It's something that requires me to be really thinking about
22:34
beautiful sentences or whatever.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: If I need to crank on emails, I can definitely do it.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, for me, it's kind of like it's a get shit done album.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: So I have this I have this like Venn diagram.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: I even brought it that I drew that I drew one time.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to explain it.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:53
So I drew it one time in Sharpie and it's just a Venn diagram
22:55
that just on one side
22:56
SPEAKER_00: is Daft Punk and the other side is coffee.
22:58
And then the middle part where they intersect is creative
23:00
productivity because
23:03
SPEAKER_00: it's,
23:04
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
23:04
SPEAKER_00: it's just like reliable combo.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: And...
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: And I think I just love listening to it.
23:11
I will still I put it on this morning to get myself in the
23:15
right headspace for this interview.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: And I think I think what's kind of fun about Daft Punk is for me,
23:20
SPEAKER_00: I always joke like it's still a new band for me.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: I came out recently.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, you know, they're not playing music anymore or whatever.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: And then last fall in October.
23:32
Thomas made like a guest appearance at like the last live set
23:37
that they were doing
23:38
at the Bourbourg before they do a big big renovation on that
23:42
space and I saw like a
23:45
news alert about it and it was like Thomas like makes
23:48
appearance like on stage and
23:49
SPEAKER_00: I was just like god I don't really want to be going to
23:55
SPEAKER_00: Semi-Rad
24:12
and I have listened to that one a lot on repeat since October
24:16
because there was
24:16
just something there's just some kind of like energy about
24:19
here's somebody who's
24:20
had a lot of fame and people love a lot but then he gets to
24:24
like come on stage he
24:25
doesn't have his like Daft Punk helmet on he just gets to be
24:28
himself and he's like
24:29
a guy he's like our age a little bit older maybe and I just
24:32
love that I just love
24:34
SPEAKER_00: like the cycles of creative careers and you know doing what you love and
24:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't know, just the photos that I saw of him from that evening.
24:43
SPEAKER_00: It just, like, brought me a lot of joy.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:46
I think you might have to send me that link to the SoundCloud
24:50
so we can put that in there.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: It is, like, definitely get shit done music.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: What do you think about...
24:54
SPEAKER_01: And then,
24:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:55
SPEAKER_01: there's,
24:55
SPEAKER_01: like,
24:55
SPEAKER_00: a few spots,
24:56
SPEAKER_00: too,
24:56
SPEAKER_00: that I'm like,
24:57
SPEAKER_00: ooh,
24:57
SPEAKER_00: repeat on that,
24:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:58
SPEAKER_00: minute,
24:59
SPEAKER_00: like,
24:59
SPEAKER_00: 1206 or whatever.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:03
As a person who makes their living creatively and as a writer
25:07
and an artist,
25:07
SPEAKER_01: what do you think about...
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine being like young and going,
25:14
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
25:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to do,
25:14
SPEAKER_01: we're doing the helmets,
25:16
SPEAKER_01: you know?
25:17
And then like being like,
25:18
I guess we got to keep doing the helmets,
25:19
you know?
25:20
SPEAKER_01: I think about like Coolio, Coolio's like dreads.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: We're like, yeah, he's got to keep doing that, you know?
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you just made a choice and you got to commit.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
25:29
SPEAKER_00: the helmets is so interesting because it's obviously,
25:33
SPEAKER_00: and I haven't,
25:35
SPEAKER_00: for as much as I love Daft Punk,
25:36
SPEAKER_00: I haven't really read any interviews or anything about this,
25:39
SPEAKER_00: but
25:40
SPEAKER_00: It just makes me think that it's obviously a shield in some way, right?
25:44
Like you get to sort of release your creative inhibitions
25:46
because it's not you,
25:48
you.
25:49
SPEAKER_00: Like you're stepping into a role.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of us probably in our creative work, even though...
25:57
like that is us often like a work is a version of us right when
26:02
we've made
26:03
something if we've drawn something or written something it's
26:05
one version of us and
26:06
it's not our full selves and I think that there is there's
26:11
something quite alluring
26:13
about being like I'm just gonna make work that I have this kind
26:17
of like exterior
26:19
wall up that I am this sort of like different entity it's not
26:23
just me but yeah but
26:26
SPEAKER_00: then you're like stuck with it
26:28
SPEAKER_01: It's like a pseudonym, really, right?
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: That's my character.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, how's your character?
26:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: You should have started doing these interviews,
26:39
SPEAKER_00: just like wearing a mask,
26:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:41
SPEAKER_00: and see how that went.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: I feel like podcast listeners,
26:47
SPEAKER_01: it's like 99% just audio,
26:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:50
SPEAKER_01: and like some people watch the videos.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: But just to see how it would change it for you.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: I think it would make it awkward for everybody.
26:58
Maybe awkward Maybe I'll start doing that So you're into Daft
27:03
Punk well in advance
27:05
of this album coming out Like you're a fan and then a live
27:10
album comes out and you
27:11
discover it and it's like okay So it's because it's like
27:14
several albums in for them
27:16
because it was high school for you Well it is called Alive 2007
27:20
which makes me
27:20
SPEAKER_00: think that that concert was in 2007
27:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: No,
27:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying,
27:27
SPEAKER_01: you first discovered them in Sweden,
27:30
SPEAKER_01: and then by the time you're talking about it with people in Portland,
27:33
SPEAKER_01: it wasn't like a new band for you.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: And I will say, I would not consider myself a music person.
27:41
I've never felt cool about music,
27:45
and it's never been a thing where I follow a lot of musicians.
27:48
So I think there was also maybe part of my younger self of just
27:51
grasping onto one
27:52
SPEAKER_00: thing that made me feel good.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:56
SPEAKER_00: It felt different from what other people were listening to at the time.
27:58
Obviously,
27:59
that's like a huge,
27:59
you know,
28:00
there's nothing,
28:02
it's a pretty big band,
28:04
right?
28:05
SPEAKER_01: What's interesting, yeah, yeah, it is.
28:08
It's not like some indie group that I like discovered,
28:11
you know what I mean?
28:13
SPEAKER_01: Well,
28:13
but in a way you might have kind of discovered that like been
28:15
the first in your
28:16
SPEAKER_01: hometown,
28:17
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:17
SPEAKER_01: to like be or one of the first people to discover Daft Punk.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
28:22
SPEAKER_01: it's interesting to me that it was a,
28:24
SPEAKER_01: you don't have an older sibling,
28:25
SPEAKER_01: but it was a sibling,
28:27
SPEAKER_01: you know,
28:27
SPEAKER_00: technically who gave you the Daft Punk album.
28:31
I feel like there could be an oral history of like older
28:34
siblings in Daft Punk.
28:36
you know that's how they form people's musical tastes you know
28:39
and everybody would
28:39
have a story about yeah my you know my brother gave me this my
28:42
sister gave me this
28:43
whatever I just want to be like my sister and like yeah yeah
28:48
okay I've actually
28:50
read the book that's number four on your list the summer book
28:55
by Tuva Janssen can
28:59
SPEAKER_01: you tell us what that is and when when you read it first yeah
29:03
SPEAKER_00: Gosh,
29:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:04
SPEAKER_00: you think I would have prepped better for this interview,
29:05
SPEAKER_00: because I'm like,
29:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't really remember the first time they read that thing.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: No, it's okay.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: Tuve Jansson,
29:13
SPEAKER_00: iconic Finnish artist,
29:18
SPEAKER_00: author,
29:19
SPEAKER_00: illustrator,
29:20
SPEAKER_00: probably most well-known for a lot of people for her Moomin series,
29:24
SPEAKER_00: which are these sweet little creatures that look kind of like puffy...
29:33
I don't know hippo-y marshmallow hippopotamus I don't know
29:37
they're very lovely but
29:39
she also wrote she wrote quite a bit of fiction for adults as
29:46
well and so the
29:47
SPEAKER_00: summer book is one of those and it's this
29:52
SPEAKER_00: It's basically just these,
29:54
this story of like a small girl's experience on an island with
30:01
her grandmother in
30:02
SPEAKER_00: the summer.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: And Tuvillanson famously,
30:07
SPEAKER_00: she and her partner had this,
30:10
SPEAKER_00: had an island where they had a cabin in like,
30:15
in Finland and would go there and that was like a really big
30:19
part of her you know
30:21
like the sea and the island all that was like a really big part
30:23
of her creative
30:25
life and inspiration and so the summer book it's not like a
30:31
it's not her personal
30:31
history or anything but it is it is kind of like based around
30:34
her inspired by her
30:36
SPEAKER_00: own like family and experiences and
30:40
I think I do try to read that book every summer I don't
30:42
remember the first time I
30:43
read it but it was like definitely 10 or 15 years ago and
30:49
there's something that is
30:50
I think a lot of Scandinavian fiction is just a bit quieter a
30:55
little darker than a
30:58
lot of contemporary like US fiction and there is something
31:01
about that yeah it's
31:03
like it's very slow and contemplative and a little bit dark
31:08
because there's a lot
31:09
SPEAKER_00: of
31:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
31:10
SPEAKER_00: she's like with her grandmother,
31:11
SPEAKER_00: and her grandmother's aging,
31:13
SPEAKER_00: and yeah,
31:14
SPEAKER_00: it's just this really beautiful,
31:15
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
31:16
SPEAKER_00: just kind of a beautiful meditation on existing.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: And I,
31:21
SPEAKER_00: so I love that book,
31:22
SPEAKER_00: and then I think also,
31:24
I always kind of joke that Tuve Jansson is like some kind of a
31:27
creative patron
31:28
SPEAKER_00: saint for me,
31:31
SPEAKER_00: because I think she just embodies a lot of things that I love.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's like being in the water, swimming,
31:38
this sort of island like I really am always drawn to like an
31:42
edge like a coastline
31:44
anywhere where there's sort of like the meeting of like rocks
31:46
and water for me
31:47
feels really that's like a creatively potent space and yeah I
31:54
also one of the books
31:55
that I have enjoyed reading is there's a there's a book that
31:58
has all of her letters
32:00
in it not all of them but a collection of letters and I think
32:03
also she just she for
32:05
SPEAKER_00: me embodies somebody who
32:07
just committed to art as a way of being and art you know the
32:14
Moomin series is kind
32:15
of born out of going through the experience of World War II and
32:20
kind of born out of
32:21
darkness and how do you create a space where you just you know
32:24
you kind of want to
32:25
get away to and that series has become so beloved for so many
32:28
people and so I think
32:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
32:30
I really just really inspired by her as an artist and as a
32:36
creative sort of spirit,
32:39
SPEAKER_00: I guess.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and then they turned the summer book into a film last year.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: And so I actually I was in I was in Finland last.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
32:48
I was in Finland last year doing some research for my book that
32:52
I'm trying to
32:53
SPEAKER_00: finish here soon.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:55
but um and it happened to be it had its like Helsinki release
32:59
while I was there so
33:00
SPEAKER_00: I got to go to this cool old cinema that kind of had this like art deco
33:04
architecture very cool and I just got to sit there alone in the
33:08
middle of the day
33:09
and watch the summer book um which was just kind of enjoyable
33:14
did I I feel like I
33:15
maybe sent you the trailer or maybe you I don't remember okay
33:18
because Hillary
33:19
really likes that book too yeah so I yeah uh which is what
33:22
which is how I've read
33:23
SPEAKER_01: it but um yeah
33:25
Did it,
33:26
um,
33:27
so did you know about the Moomin books before you read the
33:30
summer book?
33:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
33:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
33:33
SPEAKER_00: that's,
33:34
SPEAKER_00: and that's not a,
33:34
SPEAKER_00: that's not a series of books that I really grew up reading a lot of,
33:37
SPEAKER_00: but certainly we have,
33:38
SPEAKER_00: um,
33:40
SPEAKER_00: Definitely have a few that are in Swedish.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: So I definitely would have read them at some point.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: But not something that I was reading sort of diligently, I guess.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: But in my ecosystem.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: And so she was a... And she spoke Swedish also.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: So when you listen to interviews,
33:59
it's kind of fun to listen to old interviews with her when
34:01
she's speaking Swedish.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's fun if you speak Swedish.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: It's fun.
34:09
um was there is there anything about your spending summers with
34:14
your grandma in
34:15
Sweden that was kind of a that kind of makes you enjoy that
34:19
book more is there like
34:21
is there anything there with like the characters and yeah
34:24
that's a good question um
34:25
I mean I think there is something about we used to when I grew
34:27
up uh my aunt uncle
34:29
had a summer house that we would often go to like with my
34:32
cousins and stuff and
34:33
SPEAKER_00: that was on a lake and so
34:36
I do remember they definitely reading the summer book those are
34:39
the visuals that
34:40
come to mind for me are how that place looked and felt even
34:45
though that wasn't on
34:46
an island but I think kind of similar like granite rocks and
34:48
then water so I think
34:51
that there probably is quite a bit of that without me even
34:54
thinking about it right
34:56
sort of yeah consciously what's the furthest you've ever lived
35:01
from the ocean from
35:05
SPEAKER_01: salt water
35:08
uh I guess Paris okay and that was three years I lived for
35:13
almost three years yeah
35:14
yeah okay yeah I don't really want to be far away from salt
35:17
water it's kind of not
35:17
an option anymore okay yeah I know that sounds very privileged
35:22
but yeah it's hard
35:24
to it's really hard to for me to envision being away from salt
35:27
water now for sure
35:30
SPEAKER_01: yeah what do you what do you think it why do you think that is
35:37
I mean,
35:41
well,
35:41
I mean,
35:41
number one,
35:43
water is just,
35:45
we all have a connection to water,
35:46
right?
35:47
SPEAKER_00: Like water is us, et cetera, et cetera.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: It's like our life force.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: We like begin life in water.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, we have to drink water to stay alive.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: It's like very much a part of our own life.
36:04
yeah our own history our own ancestry and I think just water
36:09
has so much um yeah
36:11
there's so much about water that just like plugs into some of
36:14
those like ancient
36:15
cues in our brains like why we feel like water is calming why
36:18
the sound of water is
36:19
calming all of those things I think are just really tapping
36:22
into these yeah older
36:24
versions of our of ourselves um and so I think just water in
36:28
general right and then
36:29
SPEAKER_00: I think salt water um
36:32
SPEAKER_00: Saltwater in particular.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I grew up around saltwater.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: So for me, like the smell of low tide is just very much.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it's like a it's just a very grounding smell, I think.
36:48
And so being in and around saltwater just feels kind of like a
36:52
homecoming,
36:53
I guess.
36:55
And yeah,
36:57
I mean,
36:57
saltwater is interesting,
36:58
too,
36:58
because it feels very different.
37:01
from freshwater I personally now like if I swim in a lake I
37:09
always feel a little I
37:11
think some people think saltwater feels kind of like gross and
37:14
I just think
37:15
freshwater feels a little gross I don't know you just get that
37:19
like slippery like
37:21
feeling on your skin afterwards and saltwater is just like
37:25
crisp and um There's a
37:28
SPEAKER_01: chapter in your book then I suppose
37:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean... Yeah, why freshwater swimming is for Philistines.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: Well,
37:39
it's funny because I had a friend once who was talking about
37:42
some author and she
37:43
SPEAKER_00: was like,
37:44
SPEAKER_00: what?
37:45
That I hadn't really resonated with and she was like,
37:47
well,
37:48
you know she's a lake person.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, a lake person.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: No wonder.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: No way.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: I knew it.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was kind of funny.
37:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: I guess we need salt, too.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's just something about having salt and water in our bodies.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: Plus, you can float.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: It's just nice.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is nice.
38:15
That's why people go on vacations to the ocean when they don't
38:19
live next to the
38:20
SPEAKER_01: ocean,
38:20
SPEAKER_01: I suppose.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: Number five,
38:23
SPEAKER_01: I had not heard of this until you put it on this list,
38:27
SPEAKER_01: and I mentioned this to you before we started recording,
38:29
SPEAKER_01: and you were like,
38:30
SPEAKER_01: are you kidding me?
38:31
SPEAKER_00: I know.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually really surprised that you haven't heard about this.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: Only because it seems like it would be in your ecosystem, but...
38:38
Honestly,
38:39
I have never used a writing prompt in my life,
38:42
so that might be part of it.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: But now that I heard about it,
38:46
SPEAKER_01: I was like,
38:46
SPEAKER_01: this actually might be a good time for me to explore this thing.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: It's called Oblique Strategies.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: Can you describe what it is and when you discovered it?
38:57
SPEAKER_00: So Obek Strategies is a card deck by Brian Eno.
39:04
SPEAKER_00: Musician, music producer, artist, all around cool guy.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: I've never met him, but he seems very cool, seems very nice.
39:15
And he,
39:17
in like the 70s,
39:19
he collaborated with a visual artist named Peter Schmidt,
39:25
and they
39:26
they both kind of realized that both of them had kind of like
39:31
an ongoing list of
39:32
things that they like Brian had this kind of list of things
39:36
kind of like reminders
39:36
if he got stuck in the in the music studio and Peter Schmidt
39:40
kind of had a similar
39:41
thing for when he got stuck on a painting and so they
39:44
collaborated to come up with
39:47
this collection of these like kind of one-liner phrases that
39:51
were supposed to be
39:54
used like in moments of creative block or when you just need to
39:57
like switch your
39:58
SPEAKER_00: brain a little bit,
39:59
SPEAKER_00: think about something differently.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: And so they,
40:02
SPEAKER_00: I can't remember how many they printed in the original version,
40:05
SPEAKER_00: but it was cool because
40:08
SPEAKER_00: The New York Times had done,
40:09
SPEAKER_00: like,
40:09
SPEAKER_00: a feature piece on some of the creative things in,
40:12
SPEAKER_00: like,
40:13
SPEAKER_00: David Bowie's personal archives.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: And, like, he had one of the original ones.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: And there was, like, the little card on it and which number he had.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: And so I had this, like, cult following.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: And my husband, Luke, is, like, way more into music stuff than I am.
40:30
And so he has,
40:32
like,
40:32
listened to Brian Eno for a long time and really liked his
40:35
stuff.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: But we were...
40:36
we were hanging out with some friends at a friend's wedding and
40:42
so this other
40:43
friend was and Luke were talking about Brian Eno and this guy's
40:47
name is Brian and
40:48
Brian said like oh yeah but like you know about his Oblique
40:50
Strategies deck and
40:51
Luke was like oh I've never heard about that so Luke ended up
40:54
ordering it and so
40:55
they still get produced today and it's a today it's like a
40:59
black box and then on
41:02
SPEAKER_00: the side in gold it just says Oblique Strategies
41:05
SPEAKER_00: And it's a deck of cards and all the cards,
41:08
I brought it with me today so I can pull one for you and I can
41:10
pull one for me.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: So it's a deck of cards.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: So they're black on one side,
41:15
SPEAKER_00: white on the other,
41:16
SPEAKER_00: and on the white side that just says something in black.
41:18
SPEAKER_00: And I really love, I love the simplicity of them and they're also...
41:24
As the name would lead you to believe they're like some of them
41:26
are like a bit out
41:27
SPEAKER_00: there and a little like you're like what?
41:30
SPEAKER_00: So they're not sort of classic like writing prompts.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: You know,
41:34
SPEAKER_00: it's not like tell a story about the time that you,
41:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:38
SPEAKER_00: like experienced sadness.
41:40
It's like they're just they're just something that kind of gets
41:43
I like to think of
41:44
SPEAKER_00: it as like a way to just get your mind out of.
41:47
whatever kind of like neural network rut you're in and you just
41:50
need to like move
41:51
to the next one and so I yeah so we let's see so we bought that
41:56
deck maybe in like
41:57
SPEAKER_00: 2018 or 2019
42:01
so this is like a more recent addition to my creative sphere
42:06
but yeah and then we
42:07
would just like pull them at home and then I have always taken
42:11
them with I always
42:12
take the deck if I'm teaching or if I'm leading a workshop and
42:15
so what's been quite
42:16
fun is I lead a I lead this creative retreat every summer with
42:20
my friend Hannah at
42:21
her property in northern Norway and what's fun there is that we
42:26
always start the
42:26
SPEAKER_00: day with coffee
42:29
and a card pull so then everybody gets to pull a card for that
42:32
day which is kind of
42:33
a fun again just kind of a fun way to have a little like ritual
42:37
around it yeah and
42:39
so I just I like the simplicity of it I kind of love the story
42:43
of how it came to be
42:44
I love that it kind of has this cult following I love that it's
42:47
still produced
42:48
today you know it's gone through many like iterations and how
42:51
it looks and so yeah
42:55
SPEAKER_00: should I pull one for you?
42:56
SPEAKER_01: I was going to ask you a couple questions first.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to shuffle while you ask me a question.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: Are you using it
43:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
43:08
SPEAKER_00: I actually haven't pulled one in a couple weeks,
43:13
SPEAKER_00: but often if I am pulling one,
43:15
SPEAKER_00: it'll be like,
43:16
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
43:16
SPEAKER_00: over morning coffee,
43:17
SPEAKER_00: I'll be like,
43:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to pull a card.
43:19
And that'll just be the thing that I kind of like hold in my
43:21
mind for the day.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: Or if I sometimes I'm like,
43:25
SPEAKER_00: if I feel stuck,
43:26
SPEAKER_00: or I'm just kind of been kind of slogging along on a project,
43:29
SPEAKER_00: and I'm like,
43:29
SPEAKER_00: I just need to,
43:29
SPEAKER_00: I'll just pull a card.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: Because
43:31
At the very least it's going to make you think of something
43:33
different and stop just
43:35
SPEAKER_00: ruminating on whatever your creative problem is.
43:37
SPEAKER_00: So I wouldn't say that it's,
43:40
I wouldn't say it's the kind of deck where I'm having like an
43:44
immediate creative
43:45
SPEAKER_00: version.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm not using it as writing prompts, I guess.
43:48
I'm using it more as like what kind of creative like reminder
43:53
or what kind of
43:53
SPEAKER_00: creative energy do I need to be holding.
43:57
Sounds way more way easier than like going and running six
44:00
miles,
44:00
which is what I sometimes do.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: It's like your options are running six miles,
44:07
SPEAKER_00: cold water swim or pulling a card from the or psychedelics.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or psychedelics.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which a lot of people would opt for those probably.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: But you know, sometimes you only have time to pull a card.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: So that's right.
44:19
SPEAKER_01: What happens?
44:19
SPEAKER_01: What happens?
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Have you had the occasion where you're like,
44:22
I just had this one like three months ago and you just pull
44:26
another one or is it
44:27
SPEAKER_01: like?
44:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
44:28
SPEAKER_00: well,
44:28
SPEAKER_00: sometimes if I'm pulling them regularly,
44:30
like I don't know if you like I have lots of friends who do
44:34
tarot and certainly
44:37
SPEAKER_00: when you use certain decks,
44:38
SPEAKER_00: like sometimes the same card comes up all the time.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: And what does that mean?
44:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
44:44
uh energetically but I think often there have been times when
44:47
I've been pulling
44:47
these regularly and I'll get the same card over and over again
44:49
and there are
44:49
certainly cards that I will get more regularly and if it's a
44:52
card that keeps
44:53
showing up then that's kind of like okay do I have I not done
44:57
that thing right like
44:59
okay clearly I haven't embodied that sort of thing or is it
45:03
like oh do I just just
45:04
need this reminder to keep doing this thing because I'm on the
45:06
right track and I
45:07
SPEAKER_00: just
45:08
so I would think about it more like that but sometimes I pull a
45:10
card and I'm just
45:10
like this is not working for me I hate it and then I pull a
45:13
different one I don't
45:14
know there's no rules you like go through and make sure there's
45:17
only 75 and each
45:18
one is only represented once or is there like there's like 7 of
45:21
the same one in
45:21
there and that's why it keeps coming up no but it's funny
45:23
because I don't actually
45:25
know how many but the deck is like what is this maybe an inch
45:30
it's like an inch and
45:31
SPEAKER_00: a half
45:33
SPEAKER_00: There's got to be at least 100 cards in here.
45:35
SPEAKER_00: And there are still some times when I've pulled a card and I'll be like,
45:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't really recognize that one.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: So there's still kind of, and I've had this for a long time.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I got to buy it now.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
45:46
SPEAKER_01: Are you pulling one for yourself first?
45:48
SPEAKER_01: I'll pull a card for you.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to pull one for you.
45:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to write it down as you do that.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to shuffle.
46:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'm just going to think about what creative energy you need.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay, you ready?
46:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: Make a blank valuable by putting it in an exquisite frame.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: I just did this with a piece of my kid's artwork from preschool.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, there you go.
46:26
SPEAKER_01: Like they send him home with a project pretty much every day.
46:31
And one day they just sent him home with this piece of paper
46:32
and it literally had
46:33
SPEAKER_01: one mark on it.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I'm framing that shit.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hell yeah.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: And I hung it up by the bathroom.
46:38
SPEAKER_01: And then when people ask about it, I'm like, yeah, Jay did that.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: Don't you think he's talented?
46:42
SPEAKER_01: And they have to say yes.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: It's a slip of paper.
46:47
It's like three inches,
46:48
three by six,
46:49
and it's in this huge floating frame.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: So it's like very dramatic.
46:51
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what is it?
46:53
I'm like,
46:53
well,
46:53
you got to look really close that you can see this faint mark
46:56
here.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: That's amazing.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: All right.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: You can draw one for yourself.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: I'll draw one too.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
47:04
SPEAKER_00: Because I haven't.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: It's been a couple of weeks.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: I probably am in need of one of these.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: Breathe more deeply.
47:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
47:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's good.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: That's good advice.
47:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
47:25
SPEAKER_01: As long as you need the reminder, you know?
47:29
SPEAKER_01: Do you have a memory of one of these that actually led to,
47:32
SPEAKER_01: like,
47:32
a bigger breakthrough or even just a recent one that really
47:37
worked for you?
47:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, you could paraphrase the idea.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
47:40
SPEAKER_00: there's one,
47:41
SPEAKER_00: and I will tend to pull it a lot if I'm working on a bigger project,
47:44
SPEAKER_00: so I pulled it a lot while working on the book,
47:46
SPEAKER_00: and it's something about...
47:48
SPEAKER_00: It's something like building a brick, not building a wall.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: That's not the exact wording.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: But I will pull that.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: That one pops up quite a bit for me.
47:59
And that is always a reminder of you just have to do the small
48:02
thing in front of you.
48:05
SPEAKER_00: In doing so, you build the bigger thing.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: But if you focus too much on building the bigger thing,
48:09
SPEAKER_00: then you just get overwhelmed and you bail.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: Probably.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: Or you just run into the wall.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm not really sure.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: Or you vacuum for a while.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
48:21
SPEAKER_00: So that one actually, that's a card that pulls that I get regularly.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: Now, am I pulling it regularly?
48:27
SPEAKER_00: Am I just paying attention to it?
48:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, I like it.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: So for that, what does that look like for you when you do the action?
48:35
SPEAKER_01: Are you like, okay, I'm just going to write one sentence?
48:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or it's like, what's the sort of task at hand today?
48:41
Or what's this one part of the project that just needs to be
48:45
finished or that I
48:46
SPEAKER_00: need to focus on?
48:47
SPEAKER_00: And I guess it's more of a, for me, that's more of an attention thing.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: Like,
48:51
SPEAKER_00: okay,
48:51
SPEAKER_00: instead of being overwhelmed by the big picture,
48:54
SPEAKER_00: what something needs to be or what you're working towards,
48:56
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:57
SPEAKER_00: Just focus on the one small component.
48:59
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, sometimes that's a sentence.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: A sentence is hard for me,
49:04
SPEAKER_00: though,
49:04
SPEAKER_00: because if I focus too hard on a sentence,
49:06
SPEAKER_00: we'll be on that sentence for a long time.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: I got to get past that shit.
49:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:13
But yeah,
49:14
so maybe that's just like,
49:15
well,
49:15
for book,
49:15
for example,
49:16
it's like that could be.
49:18
yeah what's like what's the focus of this one chapter like
49:21
forget the rest of it
49:22
forget wanting to have something like beautiful but like what's
49:26
one thing you want
49:27
to say right now right okay yeah oh that's great um what's the
49:32
name of this book do
49:34
you have a title I do current I think it'll probably change but
49:38
um currently the
49:39
manuscript title is um cold lessons of place practice and
49:45
presence but I'm sure
49:45
SPEAKER_00: that will change
49:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've been working on it for a while.
49:51
SPEAKER_00: Like two years.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: Well,
49:53
SPEAKER_01: if you go all the way back to when you started cold water swimming,
49:56
SPEAKER_01: it's like you've been working on it for even longer.
49:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
49:59
It's funny because I have a friend who just came out with a
50:01
book last month and I
50:04
SPEAKER_00: think he was like four years behind on his deadline or something.
50:10
you know I tell people it's like writing it's the best part you
50:13
know it's not going
50:14
to let you down when you're writing it it's still a dream and
50:17
like once it comes
50:18
out you'll be like oh I thought more people would buy it or
50:21
more people would like
50:22
it or yeah it's funny because I'm getting like it does need to
50:25
be if it's going to
50:26
come out next summer it kind of has to be finished by this
50:28
summer just timeline
50:30
wise for all the things but yeah I mean the other day I was
50:34
like oh right this is
50:36
SPEAKER_00: actually close to being finished that makes me feel a little panicky
50:41
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's terrifying, right?
50:42
SPEAKER_00: Then you gotta be final, right?
50:43
And you're like,
50:44
I have to,
50:45
okay,
50:45
I'm just one day gonna be like,
50:47
yep,
50:48
we're done,
50:48
check.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: Ah.
50:52
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
50:52
I always think of a friend in college who was a couple years
50:57
older than me,
50:57
SPEAKER_00: and she was working on her thesis,
50:59
SPEAKER_00: and she said,
51:00
SPEAKER_00: at some point,
51:01
SPEAKER_00: you just gotta push it off the cliff.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: And I kinda like that,
51:05
SPEAKER_00: because it's like,
51:06
SPEAKER_00: the thing,
51:07
SPEAKER_00: ideally you've done enough work that it will
51:10
SPEAKER_00: fly and be a beautiful bird or whatever.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: It also might just fall off the cliff and not do anything.
51:18
SPEAKER_00: But at some point you do have to push it off the cliff.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: You have to release it.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: And that's a scary part.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: No, for sure.
51:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
51:27
SPEAKER_01: it's like the quote that's,
51:29
SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's actually Da Vinci,
51:31
SPEAKER_01: but art is never finished,
51:32
SPEAKER_01: only abandoned.
51:33
SPEAKER_01: You just gotta do it.
51:37
SPEAKER_01: There's a famous story about Q-Tip from A Tribe Called Quest.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: I think it was the low-end theory.
51:43
The manager's like,
51:44
we just physically had to take the album away from him.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: Just like, stop.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: You're done.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: Stop working on it.
51:49
SPEAKER_01: And it's a masterpiece.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, and that's the thing, right?
51:52
It's like,
51:53
I think,
51:53
too,
51:54
when you're working,
51:54
that's what's interesting about paper cutting.
51:56
Paper cutting,
51:58
if you keep going,
51:59
inevitably there's going to be no paper left.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: So you do have to stop at some point.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, it's a...
52:06
you're subtracting like you're removing something to make the
52:09
piece whereas writing
52:12
is additive like you're sculpt you're sort of like you can
52:16
always add another thing
52:17
you can always tweak a thing I mean you remove as well because
52:20
you edit but you can
52:21
always contribute something more and so you could do that for
52:26
your entire life on
52:27
the same thing and at some point you do have to just like get
52:31
out of there because
52:31
SPEAKER_00: when you overwork something it's not good either yeah
52:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:35
SPEAKER_01: It's not like marble.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: It's not like you can glue more marble on and then chip it off.
52:39
SPEAKER_01: It's like, yeah, no ice.
52:41
SPEAKER_01: This is right.
52:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: It's more like Play-Doh maybe.
52:44
SPEAKER_00: And then eventually you've combined too many Play-Doh colors.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: And it's brown.
52:50
SPEAKER_00: It's just gross.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: It's ugly.
52:52
SPEAKER_00: It's got dog hair in it.
52:54
SPEAKER_00: It's just not...
52:56
SPEAKER_01: We got lots of that at our house.
52:58
SPEAKER_00: I bet.
52:58
SPEAKER_01: Trying to explain.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: If you keep adding colors, it's just going to be brown, buddy.
53:03
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
53:04
SPEAKER_01: It's a lesson we all have to learn.
53:05
SPEAKER_00: There's a lesson there, you know?
53:08
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's a great place to end it.
53:10
SPEAKER_01: That's a great place to end, yeah.
53:12
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for doing this.
53:13
SPEAKER_01: This is super fun.
53:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is fun.
53:16
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.