Latest / Deep Transformation / The Path of Wisdom, Heart, and Ethics: A Developmental Perspective on the Journey of Awakening (Part 2)

Transcript

The Path of Wisdom, Heart, and Ethics: A Developmental Perspective on the Journey of Awakening (Part 2) · Deep Transformation

0:00
Welcome
0:00
to
0:00
part
0:01
two
0:01
of
0:01
our
0:02
conversation
0:02
with
0:03
Kimberly
0:03
Lafferty
0:04
where
0:04
we
0:04
look
0:05
into
0:05
why
0:05
there
0:06
is
0:06
so
0:06
much
0:06
abuse
0:07
and
0:07
misuse
0:08
of
0:08
power
0:08
in
0:09
spiritual
0:09
organizations
0:10
and
0:10
our
0:11
pressing
0:11
need
0:11
for
0:12
training
0:12
and
0:13
ethics
0:13
in
0:13
these
0:14
turbulent
0:14
times.
0:18
Welcome
0:19
to
0:20
Deep
0:20
Transformation
0:21
Self,
0:22
Society,
0:23
Spirit,
0:24
life
0:24
enhancing
0:25
paradigm
0:26
rattling
0:27
conversations
0:27
with
0:28
cutting
0:28
edge
0:28
thinkers,
0:29
contemplatives
0:30
and
0:31
activ.
0:32
With
0:32
Dr.
0:32
Roger
0:33
Walsh
0:33
and
0:34
John
0:34
Dupuy
0:35
join
0:35
us
0:36
in
0:36
the
0:36
evolutionary
0:37
fast
0:37
lane
0:38
as
0:38
we
0:38
take
0:38
a
0:38
deep
0:39
dive
0:39
into
0:40
transformational
0:41
practice.
0:43
Peak
0:44
experience,
0:45
profound
0:46
understanding,
0:47
powerful
0:48
contribution.
0:53
You're
0:53
pointing
0:53
to
0:54
also
0:54
to
0:54
another
0:55
implication
0:55
of
0:56
ethics
0:56
here,
0:56
another
0:57
perspective
0:57
which
0:58
is
0:59
seem
0:59
to
0:59
be
0:59
talked
1:00
about
1:00
much,
1:01
certainly
1:01
not
1:01
in
1:02
our
1:02
western
1:02
culture.
1:03
And
1:03
that
1:03
is
1:03
we
1:04
can
1:04
all
1:04
do
1:04
it
1:04
as
1:05
an
1:05
experiment
1:05
and
1:06
observe
1:06
it
1:07
for
1:07
ourselves.
1:07
And
1:07
that
1:08
is
1:08
if
1:08
we
1:09
check
1:09
in
1:10
in
1:10
a
1:10
moment
1:11
when
1:11
we
1:12
are
1:13
motivated
1:14
to
1:14
act
1:14
unethically.
1:15
What
1:15
we
1:16
find
1:16
is
1:16
that
1:16
the
1:16
mind
1:17
is
1:17
consumed
1:18
and
1:18
run
1:18
by
1:19
emotions
1:19
such
1:20
as
1:20
anger
1:20
and
1:20
fear
1:21
and
1:21
jealousy
1:22
and
1:22
motives
1:23
such
1:23
as
1:24
greed
1:25
or
1:25
mode
1:26
of
1:26
attack.
1:27
And
1:28
what
1:28
we
1:28
can
1:29
see
1:29
in
1:29
our
1:29
own
1:29
direct
1:30
experiences,
1:30
if
1:30
we
1:31
act
1:31
those
1:31
out,
1:31
we
1:32
reinforce
1:33
them
1:33
and
1:34
strengthen
1:34
them.
1:34
In
1:35
traditional
1:36
terms
1:36
deepen
1:36
our
1:36
own
1:37
karma.
1:38
But
1:38
the
1:38
good
1:39
news
1:39
is
1:39
that
1:39
if
1:40
we
1:40
look
1:40
into
1:40
the
1:40
mind
1:41
at
1:41
the
1:41
moments
1:41
where
1:42
we're
1:42
motivated
1:43
to
1:44
act
1:44
ethically
1:44
and
1:44
the
1:44
way
1:45
I
1:45
define
1:45
ethics
1:46
as
1:46
is
1:47
focuses
1:47
on
1:47
intention,
1:48
that
1:49
something
1:49
an
1:49
intention
1:50
is
1:50
ethical
1:51
to
1:51
the
1:51
extended
1:52
aims
1:52
to
1:53
enhance
1:53
the
1:53
well
1:54
being
1:54
of,
1:54
of
1:55
everyone
1:55
affected
1:56
by
1:56
the
1:56
action,
1:57
including
1:57
ourselves.
1:58
If
1:58
it
1:58
doesn't
1:58
include
1:59
ourselves,
2:00
it's
2:00
sacrifice.
2:01
If
2:01
it
2:01
only
2:01
looks
2:02
at
2:02
ourselves,
2:02
it's
2:02
narcissism.
2:04
So
2:04
it's
2:04
the
2:04
both
2:05
and.
2:05
But
2:06
if
2:06
we
2:06
look
2:06
into
2:06
our
2:07
minds
2:07
at
2:07
those
2:07
moments
2:08
when
2:08
we
2:08
are
2:09
moved
2:10
to
2:10
act
2:10
ethically
2:11
to
2:12
enhance
2:12
the
2:12
well
2:12
being
2:13
of
2:13
all,
2:13
we
2:14
find
2:14
that
2:14
the
2:14
mind
2:15
is
2:15
imbued
2:15
with
2:15
emotions
2:16
such
2:16
as
2:16
love
2:17
and
2:17
joy
2:17
and
2:18
motives
2:18
of
2:19
kindness
2:19
and
2:19
generosity
2:20
and
2:20
compassion
2:21
and
2:22
they
2:22
are
2:22
reinforced.
2:23
So
2:24
yes,
2:24
you're
2:24
pointing
2:25
to
2:25
a
2:25
very
2:25
important
2:25
thing
2:26
that
2:26
the
2:26
future
2:26
changes.
2:27
But
2:27
in
2:27
the
2:27
very
2:28
moment
2:28
of
2:28
the
2:29
action
2:30
there's
2:30
reinforcement
2:31
of
2:32
either
2:32
positive
2:32
or
2:33
painful
2:34
mental
2:34
qualities.
2:35
Thank
2:36
you
2:36
so
2:36
much,
2:36
Roger.
2:37
Absolutely.
2:38
Yeah,
2:39
absolutely.
2:39
It
2:40
ends
2:40
up
2:40
being
2:41
I
2:41
benefit
2:42
when
2:42
we
2:42
do
2:42
these
2:43
ethical.
2:43
We
2:44
should
2:44
probably
2:44
find
2:44
another
2:44
word
2:45
for
2:45
this.
2:45
These
2:46
actions
2:46
that
2:46
benefit
2:48
ourselves
2:48
and
2:48
others.
2:49
You
2:49
know,
2:50
the
2:50
happiness
2:51
that
2:52
comes
2:52
and
2:52
the
2:52
joy
2:53
that
2:53
comes
2:54
is
2:54
just
2:55
extraordinary.
2:56
So.
2:57
And
2:57
the
2:57
ease
2:58
and
2:58
the
2:58
ability
2:58
to
2:59
meditate.
3:00
Yes.
3:00
Is
3:01
so
3:01
tied
3:01
in
3:02
with
3:03
acting
3:04
in.
3:04
Anyone
3:04
who's
3:05
tried
3:05
to
3:05
meditate,
3:06
anyone
3:06
who's
3:06
gone
3:06
into
3:06
retreat
3:07
can
3:07
certainly
3:08
tell
3:08
you
3:09
that
3:10
we
3:10
want
3:10
to
3:11
clear
3:11
up
3:12
the
3:12
things
3:12
that
3:13
are
3:13
bothering
3:13
us.
3:13
You
3:14
know,
3:14
my
3:14
teacher
3:14
used
3:14
to
3:15
say
3:15
just
3:15
go
3:15
after
3:15
your
3:16
number
3:16
one
3:16
mental
3:16
affliction.
3:18
Just
3:18
acknowledge.
3:19
Do
3:19
the
3:19
shadow
3:20
work,
3:20
for
3:20
those
3:20
of
3:20
you
3:21
familiar
3:21
with
3:21
that
3:21
term,
3:22
you
3:22
know,
3:22
do
3:22
the
3:22
work
3:23
you
3:23
need
3:23
to
3:23
do
3:24
to
3:24
recognize
3:25
what's
3:25
actually
3:26
arising
3:26
in
3:26
our
3:26
own
3:27
psychology
3:28
before
3:28
we
3:28
go
3:29
into
3:29
retreat.
3:29
Because
3:29
you'll
3:30
certainly
3:30
see
3:30
it
3:30
in
3:30
retreat.
3:31
Oh,
3:31
yes.
3:33
Yeah.
3:34
Amplified.
3:35
Jack
3:36
Cornfield
3:37
used
3:38
to
3:38
say,
3:38
it's
3:38
very
3:38
hard
3:39
to
3:39
have
3:39
a
3:39
nice,
3:39
quiet,
3:40
calm
3:40
sitting
3:40
if
3:41
you've
3:41
been
3:41
running
3:41
around
3:42
being
3:42
angry
3:42
and
3:42
attacking
3:43
people
3:43
during
3:44
the
3:44
day.
3:45
Yes,
3:46
yes,
3:46
it
3:46
is.
3:47
So
3:48
you've
3:48
given
3:48
us
3:48
a
3:49
beautiful
3:49
overview
3:50
of
3:51
a
3:52
multi
3:52
level
3:52
and
3:53
multi
3:53
developmental
3:54
stage
3:55
perspective
3:55
on
3:56
ethics.
3:56
And
3:56
I
3:57
love
3:57
the
3:58
way
3:58
you
3:58
took
3:58
it
3:58
up
3:59
to
4:00
kind
4:00
of
4:00
the
4:00
absolute
4:01
of
4:01
the
4:01
recognition
4:02
of.
4:02
No,
4:02
Kimberly.
4:03
Giving.
4:04
No.
4:05
No
4:05
individual
4:06
person
4:07
receiving.
4:08
Rather,
4:09
Zadyashanti
4:10
would
4:10
say
4:10
there's
4:11
only
4:11
one
4:11
relationship,
4:12
the
4:12
divine
4:13
entertaining
4:14
itself.
4:15
And
4:16
we
4:17
come.
4:17
This
4:18
brings
4:18
us
4:18
to
4:18
a
4:18
problematic
4:19
area.
4:19
We've
4:20
talked
4:20
about
4:20
kind
4:20
of
4:21
an
4:21
ideal
4:21
and.
4:21
And
4:22
what
4:22
is
4:23
real
4:23
and.
4:24
But
4:26
yeah,
4:26
we
4:26
see
4:27
people
4:27
and
4:28
I
4:28
know
4:28
this
4:28
has
4:29
been
4:29
an
4:29
area
4:29
of
4:29
deep
4:30
concern
4:30
for
4:30
you
4:30
and
4:30
you
4:31
work
4:31
with
4:31
the.
4:32
You're
4:33
on
4:33
the
4:33
board
4:33
of
4:33
the
4:34
organization
4:34
for
4:35
Integral,
4:36
for,
4:36
let's
4:36
see,
4:37
spiritual
4:37
integrity.
4:38
Yes.
4:39
There
4:39
are
4:39
a
4:39
lot
4:39
of
4:40
teachers
4:40
who
4:41
have
4:41
acted
4:41
in
4:42
not
4:42
so
4:42
ethical
4:43
ways.
4:43
Manipulated,
4:44
sexually
4:45
manipulated
4:45
for
4:46
power.
4:47
How
4:47
are
4:47
we
4:48
to
4:48
understand
4:48
this?
4:49
How
4:49
are
4:49
we
4:50
to
4:50
understand
4:50
this?
4:51
Oh,
4:52
well,
4:53
we're
4:54
human.
4:54
I
4:54
mean,
4:55
how
4:55
should
4:55
we
4:55
go
4:55
into
4:56
this?
4:56
We're
4:56
all
4:56
human.
4:57
So
4:57
just
4:57
to
4:57
acknowledge,
4:58
you
4:58
know,
4:58
compassion
4:58
and
4:59
care
4:59
for
5:00
all
5:00
of
5:00
the
5:00
parts
5:01
inside
5:01
and
5:02
out
5:02
and
5:03
all
5:04
of
5:04
our
5:04
efforts
5:05
as
5:06
beings
5:07
in
5:07
the
5:07
world,
5:07
just
5:08
trying
5:08
to
5:08
be
5:08
happy.
5:09
So
5:10
starting
5:10
there,
5:12
the
5:13
wonderful
5:14
being
5:14
on
5:15
the
5:15
board
5:16
for
5:16
the
5:16
asi,
5:17
the
5:17
association
5:17
for
5:18
Spiritual
5:18
Integrity,
5:19
as
5:19
particularly
5:20
as
5:20
a
5:20
spiritual
5:21
teacher,
5:21
somebody
5:21
who
5:22
identifies
5:23
as
5:23
a
5:23
somewhat,
5:24
you
5:24
know,
5:24
quiet,
5:24
but
5:25
certainly
5:26
somebody
5:26
who's
5:26
in
5:26
a
5:27
spiritual
5:27
community
5:27
as
5:28
a
5:28
spiritual
5:28
teacher
5:29
and
5:30
has
5:30
been
5:31
around
5:31
for
5:31
a
5:31
few
5:31
decades
5:32
and
5:32
seen
5:32
the
5:33
difficulties
5:33
and
5:34
challenges
5:35
of,
5:36
you
5:37
know,
5:37
being
5:37
in
5:37
spiritual
5:38
community.
5:39
And
5:39
what
5:40
happens.
5:40
You
5:40
can't
5:40
really
5:41
find
5:42
any
5:42
spiritual
5:43
community
5:44
out
5:44
there
5:45
perhaps
5:46
who
5:47
has
5:47
not
5:47
had
5:48
some
5:48
sort
5:48
of
5:48
issue
5:49
or
5:50
schism
5:51
or
5:51
scandal
5:52
or
5:52
all
5:52
of
5:52
these
5:53
things
5:53
just
5:54
because
5:54
we're
5:55
human,
5:56
we're
5:56
divine
5:56
and
5:57
we're
5:57
human
5:57
too.
5:57
And
5:58
there's
5:58
certainly
5:58
ranges
5:59
to
5:59
that.
5:59
There's
6:00
one
6:00
distinction
6:01
I
6:01
like
6:01
to
6:02
say
6:02
is
6:02
there's
6:03
misuse
6:04
of
6:04
power
6:05
and
6:05
abuse
6:06
of
6:06
power.
6:07
And
6:08
when
6:08
you're
6:08
in
6:09
the
6:09
position
6:09
of
6:10
being
6:10
a
6:11
teacher
6:11
or
6:12
a
6:12
leader
6:13
of
6:13
anything,
6:13
you
6:14
know,
6:14
not
6:14
just
6:14
spiritual,
6:15
but
6:15
really
6:16
anything,
6:16
there
6:16
are
6:16
these
6:17
structures
6:18
and
6:19
challenges
6:19
that
6:20
we
6:20
have
6:20
in
6:20
terms
6:21
of
6:21
the
6:21
relational
6:21
aspects
6:22
of
6:22
getting
6:22
along
6:23
with
6:23
each
6:23
other
6:23
and
6:24
projecting
6:25
and
6:25
trauma
6:26
and
6:26
all
6:27
of
6:27
this.
6:27
So
6:28
most
6:29
I
6:30
would
6:30
venture
6:30
to
6:30
even
6:31
say
6:31
that
6:32
Any
6:32
spiritual
6:33
teacher,
6:33
at
6:33
some
6:34
point,
6:34
just
6:34
like
6:35
any
6:35
leader
6:36
is
6:36
going
6:36
to
6:37
misuse
6:37
power.
6:38
I've
6:38
done
6:39
it
6:39
myself.
6:39
I've
6:40
realized,
6:41
oh,
6:41
I've
6:41
made
6:41
a
6:41
mistake.
6:42
I
6:42
shouldn't
6:43
have
6:43
done
6:43
that.
6:43
We're
6:43
learning
6:44
as
6:44
we
6:44
go,
6:45
right?
6:45
I
6:45
shouldn't
6:46
ask
6:46
anyone
6:47
who's
6:47
a
6:47
student
6:47
to
6:48
do
6:48
anything
6:49
that
6:49
I
6:49
don't
6:49
pay
6:49
them
6:50
for
6:50
or
6:50
whatever
6:51
is
6:52
the
6:52
issue.
6:53
Misuse
6:54
of
6:54
power
6:55
is
6:55
something
6:55
we
6:55
just
6:55
need
6:56
to
6:56
acknowledge
6:57
that
6:57
might
6:57
happen
6:57
and
6:58
be
6:58
very
6:58
eyes
6:59
open
6:59
and
7:00
aware
7:01
of
7:01
the
7:01
tendency
7:02
to
7:02
do
7:02
that.
7:03
Any
7:03
spiritual
7:04
teacher,
7:04
and
7:04
I
7:04
will
7:05
put
7:05
a
7:05
line
7:06
under
7:06
this
7:06
and
7:07
put
7:07
my
7:07
foot
7:08
down
7:08
on
7:08
this,
7:08
any
7:08
spiritual
7:09
teacher
7:09
should
7:09
report
7:10
to
7:10
somebody,
7:11
should
7:11
have
7:11
a
7:12
board,
7:12
should
7:12
have
7:13
a
7:14
mentor,
7:14
should
7:14
have
7:15
somebody
7:15
that
7:16
text
7:16
them.
7:16
It
7:16
should
7:17
have
7:17
a
7:17
community
7:17
that
7:18
has
7:18
a
7:18
feedback
7:19
process.
7:20
And
7:20
even
7:21
with
7:21
all
7:21
of
7:21
these,
7:22
there's
7:22
still
7:22
going
7:22
to
7:22
be
7:23
challenges
7:23
because
7:23
we're
7:24
human
7:24
and
7:24
we're
7:25
trying
7:25
to
7:25
figure
7:25
it
7:26
out
7:26
and
7:26
we're
7:26
trying
7:26
to
7:27
practice.
7:28
Like
7:28
in
7:29
my
7:29
community,
7:29
the
7:29
Vajrayana
7:30
School
7:31
were
7:31
practicing
7:33
these
7:33
things
7:34
that
7:34
require
7:34
a
7:35
lot
7:35
of
7:35
us,
7:35
like
7:36
being
7:36
divine
7:37
light
7:37
and
7:37
seeing
7:37
each
7:38
other
7:38
as
7:38
divine
7:38
light.
7:39
These
7:39
are
7:39
not
7:39
small
7:39
things.
7:40
Right?
7:40
So,
7:40
Kimberly,
7:41
this
7:41
is
7:41
a
7:41
very,
7:41
very
7:42
important
7:42
subject
7:43
for
7:43
me.
7:43
So
7:44
do
7:44
you
7:44
think
7:44
it
7:45
is
7:45
possible
7:45
for
7:46
an
7:46
individual
7:47
to
7:47
have
7:47
a
7:47
deep
7:47
realization
7:48
at
7:49
the
7:49
same
7:49
time
7:49
and
7:50
not
7:50
talking
7:50
about
7:50
you
7:51
catching
7:51
yourself,
7:51
like
7:52
not
7:52
paying
7:52
somebody
7:52
than
7:53
where
7:53
you
7:53
should
7:53
have
7:53
or
7:53
something
7:54
going,
7:54
oh,
7:54
I'm
7:54
sorry,
7:55
God,
7:55
you
7:55
know,
7:56
but
7:56
this
7:56
chronic
7:57
malignant
7:58
lack
7:58
of
7:59
ethics
7:59
and
8:00
acting
8:00
out
8:00
and
8:00
hurting
8:01
people
8:01
at
8:01
the
8:01
same
8:01
time,
8:02
having
8:02
this
8:02
deep
8:03
realization,
8:04
can
8:05
those
8:05
coexist?
8:07
Yes
8:07
and
8:07
no.
8:08
I
8:08
mean,
8:08
apparently
8:09
so
8:09
we
8:09
have
8:10
a
8:10
lot
8:10
of
8:10
case
8:11
studies,
8:12
right?
8:13
Or
8:14
this
8:14
is
8:15
the
8:15
case.
8:16
And
8:17
I
8:17
would
8:18
venture
8:18
to
8:18
say,
8:19
based
8:19
on
8:19
my
8:20
experience,
8:21
you
8:21
could
8:21
have
8:21
a
8:21
non
8:22
dual
8:23
realization,
8:24
like
8:24
a
8:24
true
8:25
emptiness
8:25
realization
8:26
and
8:26
still
8:26
be
8:26
quite
8:27
early
8:27
developmentally
8:29
and
8:29
have
8:30
a
8:30
lot
8:30
of
8:30
shadow
8:30
and
8:31
a
8:31
lot
8:31
have
8:31
a
8:31
lot
8:31
of
8:31
trauma.
8:32
And
8:32
so
8:32
yes,
8:33
it
8:33
can
8:33
go
8:33
exist
8:34
because
8:34
I
8:34
assert
8:35
that
8:36
the
8:37
later
8:37
stages
8:37
of
8:38
wisdom
8:38
should
8:38
definitely
8:39
lead
8:39
you
8:39
to
8:39
bodhichitta
8:40
and
8:40
ethics.
8:41
And
8:42
if
8:42
it's
8:42
not,
8:42
then
8:43
there's
8:43
a
8:43
problem,
8:45
you
8:45
know,
8:45
just
8:45
to
8:45
come
8:46
back
8:46
to
8:46
the
8:46
beginning.
8:46
If
8:47
it's
8:47
not,
8:47
then
8:48
there's
8:48
something
8:48
is
8:49
amiss,
8:50
right,
8:51
in
8:51
the
8:51
state
8:51
of
8:51
Denmark.
8:52
So
8:52
I
8:53
assert
8:53
that.
8:53
But
8:54
apparently
8:54
so,
8:54
yes,
8:55
you
8:55
know,
8:55
and
8:55
you
8:55
can
8:56
have.
8:56
We
8:57
see
8:57
this
8:57
in
8:58
the
8:58
developmental
8:58
research,
8:59
you
8:59
know,
8:59
early
9:00
realizations
9:01
and
9:02
then
9:02
claims
9:02
and
9:02
truth
9:03
claims,
9:03
all
9:03
of
9:03
this
9:04
happens.
9:04
And
9:04
yeah,
9:04
there's
9:05
still
9:05
a
9:05
lot
9:05
of
9:05
problem.
9:06
And
9:07
so
9:07
there
9:07
is,
9:07
you
9:07
know,
9:07
there's
9:08
misuse
9:08
of
9:08
power,
9:08
which
9:09
every
9:10
teacher
9:10
needs
9:10
to
9:10
be
9:10
aware
9:11
of
9:11
and
9:12
cognizant
9:13
of.
9:13
And
9:13
have
9:13
a
9:13
feedback
9:14
loop
9:14
for.
9:14
And
9:15
then
9:15
there's
9:15
the
9:15
abuse
9:15
of
9:16
power,
9:16
which
9:17
are
9:17
the
9:17
stories
9:17
that
9:18
you
9:18
see.
9:18
And
9:18
this
9:18
is
9:19
when
9:19
it's
9:19
chronic.
9:19
This
9:20
is
9:20
when
9:20
there
9:21
is
9:21
no
9:21
work,
9:21
you
9:22
know,
9:22
shadow
9:22
work
9:22
for
9:22
the
9:23
teacher.
9:23
The
9:23
teacher
9:23
isn't
9:23
getting
9:24
feedback.
9:24
It's
9:25
something
9:25
that
9:25
happens.
9:25
They
9:26
sleep
9:26
with
9:26
their
9:26
students
9:26
again
9:26
and
9:27
again
9:27
and
9:27
again.
9:27
Or
9:27
maybe
9:27
it's
9:28
character
9:28
biological.
9:29
You
9:29
know,
9:29
maybe
9:30
they're
9:30
just
9:30
a
9:30
sociopath
9:31
with
9:31
a
9:31
very
9:31
deep
9:32
realization.
9:33
Yes,
9:34
it
9:34
certainly
9:34
could
9:35
be
9:35
okay,
9:36
sadly.
9:37
Yeah,
9:38
you
9:38
know,
9:38
sadly.
9:39
And
9:39
we
9:39
see
9:39
that
9:39
in
9:40
a
9:40
lot
9:40
of
9:40
leaders,
9:41
I
9:41
think.
9:42
And
9:43
so
9:43
what
9:43
you're
9:43
pointing
9:44
to
9:44
many
9:44
things
9:44
here,
9:45
Kimberly,
9:45
one
9:45
of
9:45
them
9:46
being
9:46
that
9:47
insights
9:48
don't
9:48
do
9:49
it
9:49
all
9:50
by
9:50
any
9:50
means.
9:51
And
9:52
one
9:53
of
9:53
the
9:53
things
9:53
you
9:53
are
9:54
one
9:54
of
9:54
the
9:54
integrators
9:55
of
9:55
contemporary
9:56
psychological
9:56
and
9:57
developmental
9:57
understanding
9:58
with
9:58
traditional
9:59
wisdom.
10:00
And
10:00
one
10:00
of
10:01
the
10:01
things
10:01
we
10:01
now
10:01
is
10:02
now
10:02
clear
10:03
is
10:03
that
10:03
there
10:04
are
10:04
certain
10:04
things
10:04
that
10:05
contemplation
10:06
doesn't
10:06
reveal.
10:06
It
10:07
doesn't
10:07
reveal
10:08
unconscious
10:09
psychodynamics
10:10
or
10:10
psychological
10:11
defenses.
10:12
And
10:12
it
10:13
doesn't
10:13
help
10:14
us
10:14
recognize
10:15
developmental
10:16
stages.
10:16
So
10:17
there
10:17
are
10:17
just
10:17
parts
10:18
of
10:18
the
10:18
psyche
10:19
and
10:19
its
10:19
potentials
10:20
and
10:20
capacities
10:21
which
10:23
we
10:23
have
10:23
only
10:23
recognized
10:24
in
10:24
the
10:24
last
10:25
century
10:25
with
10:26
Western
10:26
psychology
10:27
and
10:27
which
10:28
contemplative
10:28
practices
10:29
have
10:29
been
10:29
ignorant
10:30
about.
10:30
They
10:30
are
10:31
masterful
10:31
for
10:32
states
10:32
and
10:32
cultivation
10:33
of
10:33
particular
10:34
qualities
10:34
and
10:34
capacities
10:35
and
10:36
insights,
10:36
but
10:37
they
10:37
also
10:37
have
10:37
their
10:38
limits.
10:39
Absolutely.
10:40
Which
10:40
is
10:40
why
10:40
it's
10:41
so
10:41
important
10:41
and
10:41
we're
10:41
so
10:42
fortunate
10:43
to
10:43
live
10:43
in
10:43
2024
10:45
to
10:45
bring
10:45
them
10:46
all
10:46
together.
10:46
And
10:46
Roger,
10:47
you've
10:47
been
10:47
such
10:48
a,
10:48
you
10:48
know,
10:48
an
10:49
exemplar
10:49
of
10:49
that
10:49
with
10:50
your
10:50
work.
10:50
And
10:50
everybody
10:51
go
10:51
out,
10:51
buy
10:51
Essential
10:52
Spirituality
10:53
and
10:53
Roger's
10:53
other
10:53
works
10:54
right
10:54
now,
10:54
you
10:54
know,
10:54
that
10:55
really
10:55
do
10:55
integrate
10:56
the
10:57
wisdom
10:58
of
10:58
modernity
10:59
and
10:59
psychology
10:59
in
10:59
the
11:00
third
11:00
person
11:00
perspective
11:01
with
11:01
our
11:01
first
11:01
person
11:02
experiences,
11:03
you
11:03
know,
11:04
and
11:04
we
11:04
need
11:04
to
11:04
bring
11:04
them
11:05
all
11:05
together.
11:06
We
11:07
tend
11:07
to
11:08
overcorrect
11:08
in
11:08
this
11:09
culture.
11:10
And
11:10
there
11:10
have
11:11
been
11:11
a
11:11
lot
11:11
of,
11:11
just
11:12
to
11:12
say,
11:12
of
11:12
course,
11:13
issues
11:15
with
11:15
abuses
11:16
of
11:16
power
11:16
with
11:17
our
11:17
spiritual
11:17
teachers.
11:18
And
11:18
this
11:18
is
11:18
what
11:18
we're
11:19
looking
11:19
at
11:20
and
11:20
looking
11:20
to
11:20
support
11:21
through
11:21
our
11:22
work
11:22
at
11:22
the
11:22
asi,
11:23
which
11:23
is
11:23
a
11:23
nonprofit.
11:25
And
11:26
what's
11:26
missing,
11:27
interestingly,
11:29
for
11:29
many
11:30
of
11:30
our
11:31
spiritual
11:31
teachers,
11:33
however,
11:33
people
11:34
who
11:34
self
11:34
identify
11:34
as
11:35
spiritual
11:35
teachers,
11:35
they
11:35
might
11:36
be
11:36
yoga
11:36
teachers.
11:36
A
11:37
lot
11:37
of
11:37
people
11:37
who
11:37
are
11:37
now
11:38
acupuncturists
11:39
or
11:39
working
11:39
in
11:40
the
11:40
healing
11:41
modalities
11:41
identify
11:42
themselves
11:43
that
11:43
way.
11:43
They
11:43
know
11:43
they're
11:44
doing
11:44
something
11:45
more
11:45
than
11:45
just
11:45
healing
11:46
the
11:46
body.
11:47
So
11:47
what
11:47
is
11:47
missing
11:48
for
11:48
many
11:48
of
11:48
them
11:49
is
11:49
everything
11:49
we've
11:50
been
11:50
talking
11:50
about
11:50
is
11:51
ethical
11:52
training,
11:52
not
11:53
in
11:53
terms
11:53
of
11:54
do
11:54
this
11:54
list
11:54
of
11:55
things
11:55
don't
11:55
do
11:56
this
11:56
list
11:56
of
11:56
things,
11:56
but
11:57
exactly,
11:57
John,
11:57
what
11:58
you
11:58
keep
11:58
bringing
11:58
us
11:59
back
11:59
to,
11:59
which
11:59
is
12:00
the
12:00
why.
12:02
The
12:02
why.
12:03
And
12:03
that
12:03
does
12:03
seem
12:04
to
12:04
be
12:04
missing
12:04
for
12:04
a
12:04
lot
12:05
of
12:05
teachers
12:06
out
12:06
there,
12:06
interestingly,
12:07
even
12:07
though
12:07
they're
12:07
ordained
12:08
or
12:09
they've
12:09
gone
12:09
through
12:10
their
12:10
own
12:10
training
12:10
in
12:11
some
12:11
form
12:11
or
12:11
another.
12:14
Yeah.
12:14
And
12:15
there's
12:15
also.
12:16
We've
12:17
been
12:17
talking
12:17
primarily
12:18
about
12:18
individuals
12:19
and
12:19
the
12:20
ways
12:20
in
12:20
which
12:21
individuals,
12:22
as
12:22
you
12:22
said
12:23
so
12:23
beautifully,
12:23
both
12:24
divine
12:24
and
12:24
human,
12:25
and
12:25
we
12:25
screw
12:26
up.
12:26
In
12:26
my
12:27
naive
12:27
youth
12:28
of
12:28
not
12:28
so
12:29
many
12:29
years
12:29
ago,
12:30
naivety,
12:30
anyway,
12:31
youth
12:31
was
12:31
a
12:31
little
12:31
further,
12:31
further
12:32
away.
12:32
I
12:33
used
12:33
to
12:33
think
12:33
that,
12:33
you
12:34
know,
12:34
really
12:34
awake
12:35
people
12:35
wouldn't
12:35
screw
12:35
up.
12:36
Now
12:36
I
12:36
think
12:36
everyone
12:37
screws
12:37
up
12:37
and
12:37
wise
12:38
people
12:38
clean
12:38
up.
12:40
Yeah.
12:40
So
12:40
we're
12:41
talking
12:41
about
12:41
individuals.
12:42
And
12:42
you
12:42
mentioned
12:43
the
12:43
culture
12:43
is
12:44
overcorrected
12:44
in
12:45
a
12:45
way
12:45
and
12:46
in
12:46
some
12:46
ways
12:47
become
12:47
very
12:48
condemnatory
12:49
without
12:50
offering
12:51
more
12:51
of
12:51
a
12:51
supportive,
12:52
rehabilitative,
12:53
at
12:53
least
12:54
possibilities.
12:55
And
12:55
that's
12:56
my
12:56
addition
12:56
to
12:56
what
12:57
you
12:57
were
12:57
saying.
12:58
But
12:58
there's
12:58
also
12:58
a
12:58
larger
12:59
picture,
12:59
and
13:00
the
13:00
one
13:00
which
13:00
encapsulates
13:01
it
13:01
for
13:01
me
13:02
was
13:03
the
13:03
book
13:04
by
13:04
Brian
13:04
Victoria
13:05
called
13:05
Zenith
13:06
War,
13:07
which
13:08
laid
13:09
out
13:10
in
13:10
painful
13:11
detail
13:12
the
13:12
way
13:13
of
13:13
multiple
13:14
Zen
13:14
teachers
13:15
leading
13:15
up
13:16
to
13:16
and
13:16
during
13:17
World
13:17
War
13:17
II,
13:18
had
13:19
actively
13:19
supported
13:21
Japan's
13:22
militaristic,
13:23
nationalistic,
13:24
xenophobic
13:28
horrors.
13:30
Yeah.
13:31
And
13:31
again,
13:31
the
13:32
question.
13:32
I
13:33
have
13:33
my
13:33
own
13:33
take
13:34
on
13:34
this
13:34
and
13:34
love
13:35
to
13:35
dialogue
13:35
with
13:35
you,
13:35
but
13:36
I'd
13:36
love
13:36
to
13:36
hear,
13:37
you
13:37
know,
13:37
your
13:37
take
13:38
because
13:38
you
13:38
have
13:38
so
13:39
many
13:39
perspectives.
13:40
You
13:40
have
13:40
traditional
13:41
training,
13:41
your
13:41
developmental,
13:43
your
13:43
psychological.
13:44
What
13:45
are
13:45
some
13:45
of
13:45
the
13:45
ways
13:45
you
13:46
understand
13:46
this?
13:48
Oh,
13:49
why
13:49
these
13:50
apparently
13:50
spiritual
13:51
practitioners
13:52
would
13:52
act
13:53
in
13:53
violent
13:53
ways.
13:54
Yeah.
13:55
Or
13:55
support
13:56
the
13:56
invasion
13:56
of
13:56
countries
13:57
and
13:57
just
13:57
the
13:58
cruel,
13:59
you
13:59
know,
13:59
treatment
14:00
of
14:01
conquered
14:02
peoples.
14:02
And
14:04
samurai.
14:05
Bloody
14:05
war.
14:06
Warrior
14:07
ethics,
14:07
for
14:07
example.
14:08
You
14:08
got
14:08
it.
14:08
Warrior
14:09
ethics.
14:09
Yep.
14:10
One
14:11
of
14:11
my
14:11
favorite
14:11
subjects.
14:12
Well,
14:13
you
14:13
know,
14:14
we
14:14
referred
14:15
to
14:15
the
14:16
wisdom.
14:16
Buddhists
14:17
are
14:17
just
14:17
obsessed
14:18
with
14:18
this
14:18
idea
14:18
of
14:18
emptiness.
14:19
Right.
14:19
This
14:19
idea
14:20
of
14:20
ultimate
14:21
reality,
14:22
this
14:22
idea
14:22
of
14:22
wisdom.
14:23
And
14:23
so
14:24
we
14:24
assume
14:25
that
14:25
in
14:25
this
14:26
example,
14:26
you
14:26
know,
14:27
monks,
14:27
whatever
14:28
tradition,
14:29
have
14:29
cultivated
14:30
something
14:31
that
14:31
is
14:32
akin
14:32
to
14:34
wisdom
14:35
and
14:35
compassion
14:36
and
14:36
whatever
14:36
that
14:36
is
14:37
in
14:38
the
14:38
earlier
14:39
development,
14:40
up
14:40
to
14:40
conformist
14:41
stage
14:41
of
14:41
development,
14:42
we
14:42
would
14:42
say
14:42
up
14:43
to
14:44
ethnocentric
14:45
stage
14:45
of
14:45
development.
14:47
Emptiness
14:47
and
14:48
wisdom
14:48
is
14:49
only
14:49
correlated
14:50
with
14:50
concrete
14:51
things.
14:51
And
14:51
so
14:52
I
14:53
can
14:53
imagine
14:53
for
14:54
some
14:54
reason
14:54
I'm
14:54
seeing
14:55
a
14:55
Zen
14:55
monk
14:56
with
14:56
a
14:56
samurai
14:57
sword,
14:57
I
14:58
don't
14:58
know,
14:58
out
14:58
there
14:59
doing
14:59
feudal
15:00
warring
15:01
from
15:01
their
15:02
own
15:02
ethical
15:03
ground.
15:05
Emptiness
15:05
and
15:06
wisdom
15:07
is
15:07
merely
15:08
the
15:08
fact
15:09
that
15:10
things
15:11
out
15:11
there
15:11
change.
15:12
Things
15:13
out
15:13
there
15:13
I
15:13
can't
15:13
control.
15:14
And
15:15
the
15:16
beings
15:16
that
15:16
I'm
15:17
looking
15:17
at
15:17
are
15:17
still
15:18
ethnocentric.
15:19
I
15:19
don't
15:20
yet
15:20
see.
15:20
See
15:21
if
15:21
I
15:21
am
15:21
putting
15:22
myself
15:22
in
15:22
that
15:23
human
15:23
moment
15:24
of
15:25
evolution
15:26
and
15:27
putting
15:27
myself
15:28
in
15:28
their
15:28
shoes.
15:30
I
15:30
don't
15:31
yet
15:31
see
15:32
those
15:32
who
15:33
think
15:33
differently
15:34
than
15:34
me
15:35
and
15:35
especially
15:36
those
15:36
who
15:37
look
15:37
differently
15:38
than
15:38
me.
15:39
Even
15:40
with
15:40
what
15:40
they're
15:40
wearing
15:41
and
15:41
where
15:41
they
15:41
come
15:41
from,
15:42
they're
15:43
not
15:44
yet
15:45
people
15:46
in
15:46
a
15:46
way.
15:47
You
15:47
know,
15:47
they
15:48
don't
15:48
have
15:48
that
15:49
same
15:49
care
15:50
of
15:50
concern.
15:52
And
15:52
this
15:52
is
15:53
why
15:53
developmental
15:53
theory
15:54
helps
15:54
explain
15:55
so
15:55
much.
15:55
These
15:56
are
15:56
good
15:56
people.
15:57
There's
15:57
nothing
15:58
wrong
15:58
with
15:58
them,
15:59
but
15:59
there's
15:59
this
16:00
lack
16:01
of
16:02
understanding
16:03
yet
16:04
that
16:06
the
16:07
world
16:07
is
16:07
much
16:07
bigger.
16:08
You
16:08
know,
16:09
it's
16:09
like
16:09
you
16:09
can
16:09
only
16:10
see
16:10
the
16:10
objects
16:11
right
16:11
in
16:11
front
16:11
of
16:12
you.
16:12
So
16:13
anything
16:13
outside
16:13
of
16:14
that,
16:14
it
16:14
just
16:14
doesn't
16:14
even
16:15
exist
16:15
yet.
16:17
So
16:17
these
16:17
beings
16:18
are
16:18
working
16:18
with
16:18
what
16:18
they
16:19
have
16:19
is
16:20
what
16:20
I
16:20
assume,
16:20
you
16:20
know,
16:21
putting
16:21
aside
16:21
any
16:22
pathologies
16:22
that
16:22
might
16:23
be
16:23
occurring
16:24
or
16:24
collective
16:25
traumas
16:26
or
16:26
everything
16:27
else
16:27
that
16:27
goes
16:27
on.
16:28
They're
16:28
doing
16:28
their
16:29
best.
16:30
Yeah.
16:31
Yeah.
16:31
So
16:31
you're
16:31
drawing
16:32
a
16:32
very
16:32
important
16:33
distinction
16:33
between
16:34
contemplative
16:35
training
16:36
and
16:36
the
16:36
stage
16:36
at
16:36
which
16:37
people
16:37
are
16:37
at.
16:37
And
16:38
let
16:39
me
16:39
suggest
16:39
a
16:39
couple
16:39
of
16:39
other
16:40
things
16:40
I'd
16:40
love
16:40
to
16:40
hear
16:40
you
16:41
respond
16:41
to.
16:41
One
16:42
is
16:42
Zen
16:43
is
16:44
sometimes
16:44
referred
16:44
to,
16:45
and
16:45
this
16:45
isn't
16:45
fair,
16:45
but
16:46
I'll
16:46
use
16:46
the
16:47
phrase
16:47
somewhat
16:48
degenerate
16:49
tradition
16:49
in
16:49
the
16:49
sense
16:50
that
16:51
in
16:51
some
16:51
ways
16:52
in
16:52
Japan,
16:52
it's
16:53
been
16:53
passed
16:53
on
16:53
from
16:54
father
16:54
to
16:54
son,
16:55
and
16:56
the
16:57
lineage
16:57
holders
16:58
have
16:58
not
16:58
necessarily
16:59
been
16:59
chosen
16:59
on
17:00
the
17:00
basis
17:00
of
17:00
their
17:00
practice
17:01
or
17:01
realization.
17:02
So
17:03
perhaps
17:03
some
17:03
of
17:03
these
17:04
people
17:04
weren't
17:04
so
17:04
realized
17:05
is
17:05
one
17:05
thing.
17:06
Second
17:07
is
17:07
you
17:08
point
17:08
very
17:08
powerfully
17:09
to
17:10
the
17:10
possibility
17:11
that
17:12
these
17:12
people
17:12
work
17:13
are
17:13
actually
17:14
very
17:14
clearly
17:14
acting
17:15
out
17:15
of
17:15
a
17:16
fairly
17:16
not
17:17
so
17:17
mature
17:17
ethnocentric
17:18
developmental
17:19
stage.
17:20
The
17:20
third
17:21
thing
17:21
which
17:21
is
17:21
most
17:21
problematic
17:22
is
17:23
some
17:23
of
17:24
them
17:24
seem
17:24
to
17:25
ration
17:25
use
17:26
insights
17:27
into
17:28
and
17:28
teachings
17:28
about
17:29
profound
17:30
things
17:30
such
17:30
as
17:31
emptiness
17:31
as
17:32
rationalizations
17:33
for
17:33
action.
17:34
Yes.
17:35
I
17:35
can
17:35
quote
17:36
it,
17:36
you
17:36
know,
17:36
if
17:37
ordered
17:37
to
17:37
tramp.
17:38
If
17:38
ordered
17:39
to
17:39
march,
17:39
tramp,
17:40
tramp,
17:40
you
17:40
know,
17:41
no
17:41
one
17:42
dies.
17:42
No
17:42
one
17:43
kills.
17:43
I
17:43
mean.
17:44
Yes.
17:44
Yeah,
17:45
well,
17:45
that's
17:46
one
17:46
side
17:46
of
17:46
it.
17:47
And
17:48
the
17:48
other
17:49
not.
17:49
There's
17:49
others.
17:50
Yes.
17:51
And
17:51
this
17:51
is
17:52
the
17:52
danger
17:53
and
17:53
why
17:53
a
17:53
lot
17:53
of
17:54
the
17:54
more
17:54
profound
17:54
mystical
17:55
approaches
17:56
were
17:56
kept
17:57
quiet
17:58
because
17:58
of
17:58
their
17:58
potential
17:59
misuse.
18:00
Yeah.
18:00
There's
18:00
nobody
18:01
to
18:01
kill.
18:01
There's
18:02
nobody
18:02
to
18:02
be
18:03
killed.
18:03
Come
18:03
over
18:03
here.
18:04
Let
18:04
me
18:04
chop
18:04
your
18:04
head
18:04
off.
18:05
Tell
18:05
me
18:05
that
18:05
that's
18:06
nobody.
18:06
You
18:07
know,
18:07
it's
18:07
nobody
18:07
the
18:08
way
18:08
you
18:08
thought.
18:09
Yeah,
18:10
that's
18:10
the
18:10
big
18:11
danger
18:11
and
18:11
problem
18:12
and
18:12
misunderstanding
18:13
of
18:13
emptiness.
18:14
And
18:15
it's
18:15
very
18:15
common
18:16
to
18:16
misuse
18:16
it,
18:17
to
18:17
misuse.
18:18
Oh,
18:19
the
18:19
emptiness
18:19
of
18:20
ethics.
18:21
Right.
18:21
So
18:22
I
18:22
can
18:22
do
18:22
whatever
18:22
I
18:23
want
18:23
and
18:24
there
18:24
is
18:24
no
18:25
consequence.
18:26
Yeah,
18:27
very
18:27
important.
18:28
Yeah.
18:28
Like
18:28
the
18:29
emptiness
18:29
of
18:29
truth
18:30
in
18:30
our
18:30
post
18:30
truth
18:31
world,
18:31
which
18:31
isn't
18:32
really
18:32
true
18:32
because
18:33
things
18:33
are
18:33
true,
18:34
just
18:34
not
18:34
the
18:34
way
18:34
we
18:35
thought
18:35
they
18:35
were
18:35
true.
18:37
So,
18:38
you
18:38
know,
18:39
one
18:39
thing
18:39
I'll
18:39
say,
18:39
maybe
18:40
it'll
18:40
help
18:40
your
18:40
listeners
18:41
too.
18:41
This
18:42
emptiness
18:42
idea
18:43
too
18:43
is
18:46
the
18:46
truth
18:46
of
18:47
something
18:47
is
18:47
how
18:47
it
18:48
functions.
18:50
Right.
18:50
So
18:51
if
18:51
this
18:51
sword
18:52
functions
18:52
to
18:53
chop
18:53
your
18:53
head
18:53
off,
18:56
then
18:57
the
18:57
sword
18:57
doesn't
18:58
function
18:58
the
18:58
way
18:58
you
18:58
thought,
18:59
but
18:59
it
19:00
still
19:00
functions.
19:01
Right.
19:02
Or
19:02
that
19:03
might
19:03
be
19:03
too
19:03
esoteric
19:04
for,
19:04
for
19:04
leaving
19:04
us.
19:04
But
19:05
there's
19:06
emptiness
19:06
doesn't
19:06
mean
19:07
nothing's
19:07
true.
19:07
It
19:08
means
19:09
things
19:10
function
19:11
just
19:11
not
19:12
the
19:12
way
19:12
you
19:12
thought
19:12
before.
19:14
And
19:14
yeah,
19:15
it's
19:16
something
19:16
that
19:16
needs
19:16
to
19:16
be
19:17
corrected,
19:17
I
19:17
think
19:17
in
19:18
the
19:18
tradition.
19:19
Yeah.
19:20
And
19:21
again,
19:22
one
19:22
of
19:22
the
19:22
things
19:22
you're
19:23
pointing
19:23
to
19:23
here
19:24
is
19:24
the,
19:25
the
19:25
way
19:25
that
19:26
the
19:26
tradition
19:27
now
19:28
can
19:28
be
19:28
complemented
19:29
and
19:29
enriched
19:30
by
19:31
contemporary
19:32
understanding
19:33
and
19:33
your
19:34
emphasis
19:34
being
19:35
with
19:35
adult
19:35
development.
19:36
There's
19:36
also
19:37
the
19:38
recognition
19:38
of
19:38
psychodynamics
19:39
and
19:40
defenses
19:41
and
19:42
essentially
19:42
we
19:42
need
19:43
to
19:43
update
19:43
certain
19:44
understandings
19:45
and
19:45
practices.
19:46
Do
19:47
you
19:47
see
19:48
any
19:48
particular
19:49
ethical
19:50
issues
19:51
that
19:52
need
19:53
attention
19:54
and
19:54
specifically
19:55
need
19:55
to
19:56
be
19:56
addressed
19:57
from
19:57
our
19:57
time?
19:57
You've
19:58
actually
19:58
mentioned
19:58
one
19:59
which
19:59
is
19:59
postmodern
20:00
thought
20:01
and
20:02
the
20:02
trap
20:03
of
20:04
kind
20:04
of
20:04
non
20:05
truth
20:05
perspective.
20:06
So
20:06
maybe
20:07
you'd
20:07
like
20:07
to
20:07
say
20:07
more
20:08
about
20:08
that.
20:08
Maybe
20:08
there
20:09
are
20:09
other
20:09
topics
20:09
as
20:10
well
20:10
that
20:11
you
20:11
have
20:11
in
20:11
mind
20:12
and
20:12
I
20:12
haven't
20:12
thought
20:12
of,
20:13
but
20:13
love
20:13
to
20:13
hear
20:14
any
20:14
ways
20:15
you'd
20:15
like
20:15
to
20:16
run
20:16
with
20:16
the
20:16
idea
20:17
of,
20:17
okay,
20:17
what
20:17
are
20:18
some
20:18
contemporary
20:18
issues
20:19
that
20:19
weren't
20:20
part
20:20
of
20:21
world's
20:21
problems
20:22
a
20:22
thousand
20:22
years
20:23
ago?
20:24
Yes,
20:25
well,
20:27
it's
20:27
sometimes
20:28
painful
20:28
to
20:29
see
20:30
what's
20:31
happening
20:31
in
20:31
our
20:32
world
20:32
just
20:32
turning
20:32
on
20:33
the
20:33
news
20:33
or
20:35
just
20:36
hearing
20:36
the
20:36
way
20:37
that
20:37
we
20:37
speak
20:38
to
20:38
each
20:38
other
20:39
in
20:39
TV
20:40
shows
20:41
or
20:41
in
20:41
media.
20:42
It's
20:43
challenging
20:44
to
20:44
see.
20:44
And
20:44
of
20:44
course
20:45
the
20:45
answer.
20:45
I'm
20:46
first
20:46
going
20:46
to
20:46
say
20:46
as
20:46
a
20:47
developmentalist
20:47
that
20:48
applying
20:49
a
20:49
developmental
20:50
understanding
20:50
in
20:51
developmental
20:51
education
20:53
is
20:53
essential
20:54
to
20:54
any
20:55
situation
20:55
that
20:55
we
20:56
have.
20:56
That
20:56
there's
20:56
not
20:56
going
20:56
to
20:57
be
20:57
a
20:58
one
20:59
answer
20:59
for
21:00
everybody,
21:00
that
21:01
we
21:01
have
21:01
to
21:02
be
21:02
very
21:02
specific
21:03
with
21:04
the
21:04
interventions
21:05
that
21:06
we
21:06
take
21:07
both
21:07
inside
21:08
and
21:08
out
21:08
and
21:09
be
21:09
developmentally
21:10
appropriate
21:11
with
21:12
where
21:12
they
21:12
are.
21:13
So
21:13
an
21:13
example
21:14
of
21:14
that
21:14
is
21:16
just
21:16
speaking.
21:17
If
21:18
I'm
21:18
going
21:18
to
21:21
work
21:21
with
21:23
a
21:23
misunderstanding
21:25
with
21:25
somebody
21:26
about
21:27
they're
21:28
getting
21:28
triggered
21:28
to
21:29
an
21:29
earlier
21:29
trauma
21:30
response,
21:30
something
21:30
that
21:31
happened
21:31
with
21:31
childhood,
21:32
then
21:33
the
21:33
I'm
21:34
going
21:34
to
21:34
apply
21:35
healing
21:36
and
21:36
intervention
21:37
that's
21:37
going
21:37
to
21:37
be
21:37
appropriate
21:38
to
21:38
early
21:39
childhood.
21:39
I'm
21:39
not
21:39
going
21:40
to
21:40
go
21:40
to
21:40
the
21:40
highest
21:40
levels
21:41
of
21:41
oh,
21:41
just
21:41
see
21:41
yourself
21:42
as
21:42
Divine
21:42
light,
21:42
for
21:42
example,
21:43
or
21:43
later
21:44
stages.
21:44
So
21:45
I
21:45
do
21:45
want
21:45
to
21:45
say
21:46
that
21:48
what
21:48
we're
21:48
missing
21:49
seems
21:50
to
21:50
be
21:51
the,
21:52
I'll
21:52
just
21:53
say
21:54
spiritual
21:55
education.
21:56
I
21:56
think
21:56
if
21:56
I
21:56
had
21:56
to
21:57
choose
21:57
one
21:58
aspect,
21:59
postmodern
22:00
society
22:01
in
22:01
large
22:01
part
22:02
has,
22:04
again,
22:04
for
22:04
good
22:05
reasons
22:05
and
22:05
sometimes
22:06
not
22:06
so
22:06
helpful
22:07
reasons,
22:08
has
22:09
sort
22:09
of
22:09
relegated
22:11
a
22:11
lot
22:11
of
22:11
our,
22:12
say,
22:12
traditional
22:13
spiritual
22:13
traditions
22:14
to
22:15
the
22:16
garbage
22:16
heap,
22:16
so
22:16
to
22:17
speak.
22:17
And
22:18
that
22:19
is
22:19
unfortunate.
22:20
And
22:21
when
22:21
we
22:21
don't
22:22
have,
22:22
for
22:23
example,
22:24
as
22:24
a
22:24
mother,
22:24
you
22:24
know,
22:24
this
22:25
is
22:25
very
22:25
relevant
22:25
for
22:26
me
22:26
when
22:26
we
22:26
don't
22:26
have
22:27
that
22:27
traditional
22:28
what
22:29
we
22:29
think
22:29
of
22:29
now
22:29
from
22:29
the
22:30
older
22:30
stages
22:30
and
22:30
look
22:31
back
22:31
and
22:31
go,
22:31
oh,
22:31
that
22:32
was
22:32
so
22:32
rote.
22:32
That
22:32
was
22:32
so
22:33
black
22:33
and
22:33
white.
22:34
But
22:34
when
22:34
we
22:34
don't
22:34
teach
22:35
our
22:35
three
22:35
year
22:35
olds
22:36
and
22:36
our
22:36
four
22:36
year
22:36
olds
22:37
and
22:37
our
22:37
five
22:37
year
22:37
olds
22:39
that
22:39
there
22:39
is
22:39
a
22:40
God
22:40
who's
22:40
watching
22:41
or
22:41
there
22:41
is
22:41
even
22:41
a
22:41
Santa,
22:42
I
22:42
mean,
22:42
all
22:43
we
22:43
were
22:43
left
22:43
with
22:43
was
22:44
Santa,
22:45
right?
22:45
We
22:45
don't
22:45
even
22:45
really
22:45
have
22:46
Santa
22:46
anymore.
22:47
You
22:47
know,
22:48
Santa's
22:48
not
22:48
even
22:49
watching,
22:49
you
22:50
know,
22:50
when
22:50
we
22:50
don't
22:50
have.
22:52
And
22:52
it
22:52
doesn't
22:52
have
22:52
to
22:52
be
22:52
Sunday
22:53
school,
22:53
it
22:53
doesn't
22:54
have
22:54
to
22:54
be,
22:54
I
22:54
have
22:54
a
22:55
13
22:55
year
22:55
old,
22:56
you
22:56
know,
22:56
he's
22:56
not
22:56
being
22:57
raised
22:57
a
22:57
Buddhist
22:58
traditionally.
22:59
Right.
23:00
There's
23:01
ways
23:01
that
23:01
we
23:01
can
23:01
teach
23:02
these
23:02
things
23:02
in
23:03
everyday
23:03
language
23:04
without
23:04
getting
23:05
into
23:05
trappings
23:06
and
23:06
ritualism.
23:07
Right?
23:08
But
23:08
we
23:08
did
23:09
teach
23:09
him.
23:09
And
23:09
when
23:09
we
23:10
do
23:10
teach
23:10
have
23:11
our
23:11
kids,
23:11
we
23:11
need
23:11
to
23:11
teach
23:12
them
23:12
that
23:12
what
23:13
they
23:13
do
23:13
matters
23:14
and
23:15
that
23:15
there
23:15
is
23:16
something
23:17
watching
23:17
them.
23:18
It's
23:18
actually
23:18
a
23:18
stage,
23:19
it's
23:19
a
23:19
developmental
23:20
challenge
23:20
that's
23:21
really
23:21
important
23:21
where
23:22
you
23:22
start
23:22
to
23:22
see
23:23
that
23:23
you're
23:23
not,
23:23
you're
23:24
not
23:24
alone
23:24
in
23:24
the
23:25
universe,
23:25
right?
23:26
And
23:26
there
23:26
is
23:26
an
23:27
impact
23:27
to
23:28
your
23:28
actions
23:29
and
23:30
mom
23:30
has
23:31
eyes
23:31
on
23:31
the
23:31
back
23:31
of
23:31
her
23:32
head
23:32
and
23:33
that
23:33
there
23:33
is
23:34
a
23:34
consequence
23:34
to
23:35
doing
23:35
harm.
23:35
Right.
23:36
And
23:36
so
23:37
we
23:37
need
23:37
boundaries
23:38
that
23:38
we
23:38
don't
23:38
have
23:39
for
23:39
a
23:40
lot
23:40
of
23:40
our
23:41
young
23:41
people.
23:41
And
23:41
when
23:41
I'm
23:42
saying
23:42
3,
23:42
4,
23:42
5,
23:43
I'm
23:43
talking
23:43
about
23:44
kids
23:44
at
23:44
that
23:44
age
23:44
and
23:45
I'm
23:45
talking
23:45
about
23:45
those
23:46
parts
23:46
inside
23:46
of
23:46
us
23:47
too,
23:47
at
23:47
the
23:47
same
23:48
time.
23:48
Because
23:49
when
23:49
we
23:49
don't
23:49
have
23:49
these
23:50
traditional
23:50
boundary
23:51
structures,
23:52
to
23:52
be
23:53
frank,
23:53
we
23:53
end
23:53
up
23:53
raising
23:54
narcissists.
23:56
And
23:57
you
23:57
know,
23:57
in
23:58
simple
23:58
general,
23:59
just
23:59
all
23:59
general
24:00
terms,
24:00
but
24:00
in
24:01
general
24:01
terms,
24:01
I
24:02
think
24:02
that's
24:02
one
24:02
of
24:03
the
24:04
interventions
24:04
that
24:05
we
24:05
need
24:05
to
24:05
do
24:05
specifically.
24:06
It
24:06
doesn't
24:06
mean
24:06
send
24:06
all
24:07
your
24:07
kids
24:07
to
24:07
Sunday
24:07
school,
24:07
but
24:08
it
24:08
does
24:08
mean
24:08
take
24:09
a
24:09
look
24:09
at
24:10
how
24:10
boundaries
24:11
and
24:12
ethics
24:12
and
24:12
teaching
24:12
our
24:13
kids
24:13
some
24:13
basic
24:14
structures
24:15
that
24:15
we
24:16
find
24:16
in
24:16
our
24:16
humanities,
24:17
that
24:17
we
24:17
find
24:17
throughout
24:18
our
24:18
human
24:18
tradition
24:19
are
24:19
really
24:19
important
24:20
to
24:22
move
24:22
us
24:22
out
24:22
of
24:23
the
24:23
egocentric
24:23
stage
24:24
of
24:24
development
24:25
and
24:25
to
24:25
really
24:25
care
24:25
for
24:26
other
24:27
people.
24:27
And
24:28
it
24:28
seems
24:28
there
24:29
has
24:29
to
24:29
be
24:29
also
24:30
a
24:30
transmission
24:32
of
24:33
the
24:33
compassion
24:34
that
24:34
these
24:34
rules
24:35
are
24:35
based
24:35
in
24:36
from
24:36
a
24:36
higher
24:37
level,
24:37
that
24:38
children
24:39
can
24:39
understand
24:39
it
24:40
and
24:40
applies
24:40
for
24:40
people
24:41
at
24:41
higher
24:41
levels
24:41
too.
24:42
They
24:42
have
24:42
to
24:42
feel
24:43
that
24:43
the
24:43
being
24:44
that's
24:44
saying,
24:45
you
24:45
shouldn't
24:45
do
24:45
this,
24:45
you
24:45
should
24:46
do
24:46
this,
24:46
you
24:46
shouldn't
24:46
do
24:46
this
24:47
is
24:47
coming
24:47
from
24:48
a
24:48
place
24:48
that,
24:49
wow,
24:49
if
24:50
that's
24:50
wisdom,
24:51
I
24:51
want
24:51
some,
24:52
you
24:52
know,
24:52
I
24:52
want,
24:53
this
24:53
is
24:53
a
24:53
role
24:53
model.
24:53
I
24:54
want
24:54
to
24:54
be
24:54
like
24:54
this
24:54
person.
24:55
And
24:56
it
24:56
raises
24:57
a
24:57
question,
24:57
and
24:58
I've
24:58
never
24:58
asked
24:59
anybody
25:00
this
25:00
before,
25:00
but
25:01
somebody
25:01
who's
25:01
deeply.
25:02
And
25:02
it's
25:03
good
25:03
for
25:03
you
25:03
too,
25:03
Roger.
25:04
But
25:04
it's
25:04
deeply
25:04
studied
25:05
in
25:05
the
25:05
tradition
25:06
of
25:06
Buddhism,
25:07
Indo,
25:07
Tibetan
25:08
Buddhism.
25:09
How
25:09
legitimate
25:11
do
25:11
you
25:11
think
25:12
these
25:13
transmissions
25:14
of
25:15
authority
25:16
are?
25:17
In
25:17
other
25:17
words,
25:17
because
25:18
you
25:18
go
25:18
through
25:18
the
25:18
ceremony
25:19
and
25:19
you
25:19
get
25:19
the
25:19
robe
25:20
or
25:20
you
25:20
get
25:20
the
25:20
title
25:21
or
25:21
something.
25:22
Is
25:23
that
25:23
100%,
25:24
you
25:25
know,
25:25
or
25:25
is
25:25
that
25:25
just
25:26
probably
25:27
pretty
25:27
good,
25:27
maybe
25:27
60%
25:28
or
25:28
if
25:28
you're
25:28
lucky,
25:29
it
25:29
works.
25:30
Or
25:30
is
25:30
there
25:30
actually,
25:31
you
25:31
know,
25:31
something
25:31
that
25:32
really.
25:32
And
25:32
I
25:33
imagine
25:33
psychologically,
25:34
if
25:34
a
25:34
person
25:34
would
25:34
take
25:35
on
25:35
that
25:35
responsibility,
25:37
accept
25:37
it
25:38
for
25:38
the
25:38
importance
25:38
that
25:38
it
25:39
is
25:39
they
25:39
might
25:40
behave
25:40
that
25:40
might
25:40
help
25:41
them
25:41
to
25:41
grow
25:41
into
25:42
a
25:42
higher
25:42
level
25:42
of
25:42
behavior
25:43
and
25:43
being.
25:44
But
25:44
how
25:44
legitimate
25:45
is
25:45
all
25:45
that
25:45
stuff?
25:48
Well,
25:49
I'll
25:49
take
25:49
a.
25:49
You
25:50
know,
25:50
I
25:50
think
25:50
it
25:50
depends.
25:51
I
25:51
mean,
25:51
not.
25:51
It's
25:52
kind
25:52
of.
25:52
It
25:52
depends,
25:53
of
25:53
course,
25:53
right?
25:54
On
25:54
how
25:54
the
25:55
individual,
25:56
what's
25:56
arising
25:57
for
25:57
them.
25:58
I
25:58
can
25:58
tell
25:58
you
25:58
just
25:58
personally,
25:59
a
25:59
personal
26:00
antidote
26:00
about
26:01
that
26:02
is
26:02
my
26:02
experience
26:03
is
26:03
we
26:03
live
26:03
in
26:03
a
26:04
multi
26:04
populated
26:05
cosmos
26:06
with
26:06
a
26:06
K.
26:07
And
26:08
for
26:08
me
26:09
there
26:09
is,
26:10
yes,
26:11
I've
26:11
done
26:11
the
26:11
work,
26:12
yes,
26:12
I've
26:12
done
26:12
the
26:12
retreats.
26:13
I
26:13
also,
26:14
Kimberly,
26:15
as
26:15
a
26:15
Persona,
26:16
even
26:17
in
26:17
my
26:17
corporate
26:17
life,
26:18
I've
26:18
always
26:18
been
26:18
a
26:18
teacher,
26:19
right?
26:20
I've
26:20
always
26:20
been
26:21
that
26:21
sort
26:21
of
26:22
my
26:22
archetype.
26:22
I'm
26:23
an
26:23
educator,
26:23
I'm
26:23
a
26:24
teacher.
26:24
So
26:25
there's
26:25
a
26:25
reason
26:26
in
26:26
the
26:26
relative
26:26
reality,
26:27
on
26:27
a
26:27
personality
26:28
side,
26:28
I
26:28
was
26:29
tapped
26:30
to
26:30
step
26:30
into
26:30
that
26:31
role.
26:31
Yes,
26:31
I
26:31
had
26:32
some
26:32
clear
26:32
light
26:32
experience.
26:33
Yes,
26:33
I
26:33
did
26:33
my
26:34
retreats.
26:35
And
26:35
I'm
26:35
also
26:36
a
26:36
teacher,
26:36
right?
26:37
So.
26:37
And
26:37
I
26:37
think
26:37
my
26:38
teachers
26:38
recognize
26:39
that
26:39
in
26:39
me.
26:40
But
26:41
for
26:41
me
26:41
it
26:41
was
26:43
finding
26:44
my
26:44
passion,
26:44
getting
26:45
the
26:45
education,
26:46
getting
26:46
the
26:46
realization,
26:47
doing
26:47
the
26:47
retreats.
26:48
I'm
26:48
a
26:48
teacher
26:48
by
26:49
calling.
26:50
But
26:51
beyond
26:51
that,
26:52
there's
26:53
something
26:53
about
26:54
standing
26:54
on
26:55
the
26:55
shoulders,
26:55
as
26:56
we
26:56
say,
26:57
of
26:57
a
26:57
lineage
26:58
that
26:59
is
27:00
still
27:00
with
27:00
me.
27:01
I
27:02
feel
27:03
as
27:03
if
27:03
I've
27:03
stepped
27:04
into
27:04
a
27:05
family
27:05
of
27:06
humanity
27:07
that
27:07
goes
27:08
back
27:08
hundreds
27:08
and
27:09
thousands
27:09
of
27:09
years
27:10
and
27:10
that
27:10
I
27:10
can
27:11
feel
27:12
Even
27:12
now
27:14
at
27:15
my
27:15
back,
27:16
I
27:16
can
27:16
feel
27:16
into
27:17
the
27:17
future.
27:19
And
27:19
so
27:20
just
27:20
for
27:20
me,
27:21
it's
27:22
anybody.
27:23
This
27:23
is
27:23
accessible
27:23
to
27:24
anybody.
27:24
Once
27:24
you
27:24
step
27:25
into
27:25
a
27:25
school
27:25
or
27:25
a
27:25
lineage
27:26
or
27:26
a
27:26
family,
27:27
it's
27:29
this
27:30
invisible,
27:31
shall
27:31
we
27:31
say,
27:32
mystical
27:32
indeed,
27:35
belonging
27:36
in
27:36
a
27:37
very
27:37
deep
27:37
way
27:38
that
27:38
goes
27:38
to
27:39
sort
27:39
of
27:39
early
27:40
childhood
27:40
and
27:40
humanity
27:42
where
27:42
I'm
27:42
not
27:42
alone.
27:44
And
27:45
that's
27:45
what
27:45
it
27:45
represents
27:46
to
27:46
me.
27:47
It's
27:47
like
27:47
this
27:48
mystical
27:49
family.
27:50
Not
27:50
that
27:50
I
27:51
am
27:51
empowered
27:51
to
27:52
be,
27:53
you
27:53
know,
27:54
though
27:54
that
27:54
might
27:54
be
27:55
true
27:55
too.
27:55
It's
27:55
more
27:56
of
27:56
a
27:56
company.
27:56
It
27:57
just
27:57
makes
27:57
this
27:57
human
27:57
life
27:58
much
27:58
more
27:58
zesty
27:59
and
28:00
interesting
28:01
and
28:01
timeless,
28:02
you
28:02
know.
28:03
Yeah.
28:04
Thank
28:05
you
28:05
for
28:05
that
28:06
personal
28:06
note,
28:07
Kimberly.
28:08
I
28:08
also
28:08
want
28:08
to
28:09
go
28:09
back
28:09
and
28:09
just
28:09
make
28:10
sure
28:10
a
28:10
couple
28:10
of
28:10
things
28:11
you
28:12
said
28:13
are
28:14
emphasized.
28:14
And
28:15
one
28:15
is
28:15
you
28:15
were.
28:15
You
28:16
were
28:16
making
28:16
a
28:16
point
28:16
about
28:17
the
28:18
importance
28:18
of
28:19
ethical
28:20
training
28:21
or
28:21
ethical
28:22
inculcation
28:23
or
28:24
transmission.
28:25
I
28:25
think
28:25
you
28:25
were
28:25
making
28:26
the
28:26
point
28:26
of
28:26
ethics
28:27
as
28:27
much
28:27
a
28:28
transmission
28:28
as
28:28
anything
28:29
else,
28:29
John,
28:30
based
28:30
in
28:30
compassion
28:32
as
28:32
really
28:33
important
28:33
to
28:35
bringing
28:35
people
28:35
into
28:36
our
28:36
culturating
28:36
them.
28:37
And
28:38
I
28:38
love
28:38
the
28:38
way
28:39
the
28:39
two
28:39
of
28:39
you
28:40
were
28:40
kind
28:40
of
28:40
complementary
28:41
because
28:41
you
28:41
were
28:41
saying,
28:42
Kimberly,
28:42
it's
28:42
really
28:43
important
28:43
that
28:44
education
28:44
be
28:45
developmentally
28:46
appropriate
28:46
for
28:47
people,
28:47
which
28:47
isn't
28:48
really
28:48
something
28:48
that's
28:48
recognized
28:49
much
28:50
outside
28:50
schools.
28:51
Yeah,
28:52
that
28:52
feels
28:52
very
28:52
important.
28:53
And
28:53
so
28:53
you
28:53
were
28:54
emphasizing
28:54
the
28:54
importance
28:55
of
28:55
developmentally
28:56
appropriate,
28:57
you
28:57
know,
28:57
God's
28:58
watching.
28:58
And
28:59
John,
28:59
you.
29:00
You
29:00
brought
29:00
in
29:00
the
29:00
perspective.
29:02
And
29:02
that
29:03
ideally
29:03
comes
29:04
from
29:04
a
29:04
place
29:04
of
29:04
deep,
29:05
profound
29:05
compassion,
29:06
which
29:07
is
29:07
a
29:07
beautiful
29:08
integration
29:09
there.
29:10
And
29:11
that
29:12
point
29:12
you
29:12
make
29:12
about
29:13
the
29:13
developmental
29:14
appropriateness
29:16
of
29:16
one's
29:17
interaction.
29:19
You
29:19
were
29:19
talking
29:19
about
29:20
education,
29:20
but
29:20
one's
29:21
interaction
29:22
with
29:22
anyone
29:23
in
29:23
the
29:23
world
29:24
feels
29:24
so
29:24
important.
29:25
So
29:25
I
29:26
want
29:26
to
29:26
make
29:26
sure,
29:27
before
29:27
we
29:27
finish,
29:28
we
29:28
dive
29:29
a
29:29
little
29:29
more
29:29
deeply
29:29
into
29:30
your
29:30
developmental
29:31
understandings.
29:32
You've
29:33
immersed
29:33
yourself
29:34
so
29:34
deeply
29:35
in
29:36
the
29:36
study
29:36
of
29:37
development,
29:37
including
29:38
adult
29:39
development,
29:39
including
29:40
late
29:40
post
29:40
conventional
29:41
stages,
29:42
which
29:42
our
29:43
culture
29:43
knows
29:43
almost
29:44
nothing
29:44
about.
29:45
Yes.
29:46
One
29:46
of
29:46
the
29:46
implications
29:47
of
29:47
what
29:48
you
29:49
were
29:49
both
29:49
saying
29:50
was
29:50
that.
29:51
And
29:51
you
29:52
particularly,
29:52
Kimberly,
29:53
talked
29:53
about
29:53
the
29:54
way
29:54
religion
29:54
has
29:54
been
29:55
and
29:55
its
29:55
values
29:56
have
29:56
been
29:56
kind
29:57
of
29:57
marginalized
29:58
in
29:58
much
29:59
of
29:59
conventional
30:00
culture.
30:01
And
30:01
unfortunately,
30:02
the
30:02
marginalization
30:03
has
30:04
been
30:04
based
30:04
on
30:04
the
30:05
cultural
30:06
recognition
30:07
of
30:07
only
30:08
the
30:08
conventional
30:08
stages
30:09
of
30:09
religion.
30:10
Yeah.
30:11
And
30:11
religion,
30:11
as
30:11
far
30:12
as
30:12
I
30:12
can
30:12
see,
30:12
is
30:12
the
30:12
only
30:13
human
30:13
institution
30:13
we
30:14
have
30:14
that
30:14
spans
30:14
the
30:15
entire
30:15
spectrum
30:15
of
30:16
development.
30:16
So
30:17
it
30:17
has
30:17
these
30:18
extraordinary
30:18
potentials,
30:19
these
30:19
trans
30:20
conventional
30:21
perspectives
30:22
which
30:23
are
30:23
lost,
30:24
tragically.
30:26
So.
30:27
So
30:27
you're
30:28
one
30:28
of
30:28
the
30:28
people
30:29
who's
30:29
bringing
30:29
this
30:30
understanding
30:31
into
30:32
contemporary
30:34
practice
30:35
and
30:36
understanding
30:37
of
30:37
religion.
30:38
And
30:39
so
30:39
maybe
30:39
you
30:39
could
30:39
say,
30:40
just
30:40
riff
30:41
on
30:41
your
30:43
appreciation
30:44
of
30:44
what
30:44
this
30:45
developmental
30:45
perspective
30:46
has
30:46
to
30:46
Add
30:47
to
30:48
our
30:49
understanding
30:49
of
30:50
human
30:50
nature
30:50
potentials
30:51
and
30:52
contemplative
30:53
practices.
30:54
Sure.
30:55
Thank
30:55
you.
30:56
Well,
30:56
I
30:56
was
30:56
first
30:57
attracted
30:57
to
30:58
developmental
30:59
theory
31:00
for
31:01
adults
31:01
in
31:01
particular
31:02
because
31:02
as
31:03
I
31:03
was
31:04
reading
31:04
about
31:06
these
31:07
later
31:08
stages,
31:09
not
31:09
higher
31:10
but
31:10
later
31:11
stages
31:12
of
31:12
development
31:13
that
31:13
we're
31:13
getting
31:14
researched
31:14
on.
31:15
Right.
31:15
This
31:15
is
31:15
research
31:16
in
31:16
the
31:16
past
31:17
20,
31:18
30,
31:18
40
31:19
years,
31:20
which,
31:21
Roger,
31:21
you,
31:21
I
31:22
know,
31:22
have
31:22
had
31:22
just
31:23
such
31:23
an
31:23
important
31:24
part
31:24
of
31:24
that
31:24
movement
31:25
and
31:25
that
31:25
the
31:26
field
31:26
and
31:27
what
31:27
you've
31:27
observed
31:28
the
31:28
past
31:28
40
31:29
years
31:29
is
31:29
something
31:29
that
31:29
I
31:30
would
31:30
like
31:30
to
31:31
interview
31:31
you
31:32
about.
31:33
But
31:33
what
31:33
I
31:33
noticed
31:34
in
31:34
the
31:34
developmental
31:35
research,
31:35
especially
31:36
coming
31:36
from
31:37
the
31:37
deep
31:38
Indo
31:39
Tibetan
31:39
studies
31:39
and
31:40
in
31:40
my
31:40
own
31:40
experience
31:41
was
31:42
they
31:42
seemed
31:42
to
31:42
be
31:43
using
31:44
sometimes
31:44
different
31:44
language
31:45
to
31:46
talk
31:46
about
31:46
the
31:47
same
31:48
phenomena.
31:48
It
31:49
seems
31:49
like
31:50
that.
31:50
Anyway,
31:50
there
31:51
was
31:51
a.
31:51
Without
31:52
collapsing
31:53
them
31:53
into
31:53
each
31:54
other,
31:54
there
31:54
was
31:54
some
31:55
obvious
31:56
correlations
31:57
going
31:57
on
31:57
between
31:59
the
31:59
later
32:00
stages
32:00
of
32:00
adult
32:01
human
32:01
development
32:02
and
32:02
these
32:03
spiritual
32:03
states
32:04
and
32:04
realizations
32:05
and
32:06
capacities
32:07
that
32:07
Indo
32:07
Tibetan
32:08
Buddhism
32:09
was
32:10
pointing
32:10
out
32:11
and
32:11
that
32:11
I'd
32:11
had
32:12
tastes
32:12
of
32:13
myself.
32:13
And
32:13
so
32:13
that
32:14
was
32:14
the
32:14
original
32:14
attraction
32:15
to
32:16
development
32:16
in
32:17
particular
32:17
because
32:18
we
32:18
had
32:18
the
32:18
research
32:18
on
32:19
it.
32:19
Right.
32:19
It
32:19
comes
32:20
out
32:20
of
32:20
a
32:21
body
32:21
of
32:21
research
32:22
which
32:22
is
32:22
pretty
32:23
significant.
32:24
So
32:25
the
32:25
gifts
32:25
of
32:26
developmental
32:27
observation
32:28
and
32:29
research
32:30
has
32:31
shown
32:31
us
32:32
that
32:32
meaning
32:33
making
32:34
radically
32:34
shifts
32:35
throughout
32:36
our
32:37
lifespan.
32:38
And
32:38
not
32:38
only
32:38
does
32:39
meaning
32:39
making
32:39
radically
32:40
shift
32:41
throughout
32:41
most
32:41
people's
32:42
lifespan,
32:43
you
32:43
know,
32:43
we,
32:43
it
32:43
evolves
32:44
and
32:45
changes.
32:46
But
32:46
because
32:46
of
32:47
that,
32:47
our
32:47
reality
32:48
itself
32:49
shifts
32:50
throughout
32:52
our
32:53
meaning
32:54
making
32:54
and
32:54
our
32:54
lifespan.
32:55
And
32:55
not
32:55
only
32:56
that,
32:56
but
32:57
we
32:57
hold
32:58
everything
32:59
that's
32:59
come
32:59
before
33:00
inside
33:00
of
33:00
us.
33:01
So
33:01
the
33:01
metaphor
33:01
that
33:02
you
33:02
often
33:02
see
33:02
referred
33:03
to
33:03
as
33:03
the
33:03
metaphor
33:04
of
33:04
the
33:04
Russian
33:05
dolls,
33:06
right?
33:06
Or
33:06
of
33:07
concentric
33:07
circles.
33:08
So
33:08
development
33:09
isn't
33:10
a
33:10
ladder,
33:11
it's
33:12
a
33:12
balloon.
33:14
It's
33:14
much
33:15
more.
33:15
We
33:16
take
33:16
everything
33:17
that
33:18
comes
33:19
before
33:20
with
33:20
us.
33:22
And
33:23
every
33:23
time
33:23
we
33:24
talk
33:24
about
33:24
development,
33:25
I
33:25
always
33:26
circle
33:26
this
33:27
and
33:27
underline
33:27
it
33:28
again
33:28
is
33:29
we
33:29
are
33:29
all
33:29
of
33:29
it.
33:30
Even
33:30
as
33:30
we
33:30
recognize
33:31
that
33:31
there
33:32
are
33:32
a
33:32
variety
33:33
of
33:33
stages
33:34
that
33:34
an
33:35
individual,
33:36
a
33:36
culture,
33:37
a
33:37
society,
33:39
a
33:39
system,
33:41
evolutionary
33:42
waves
33:43
in
33:43
concentric
33:44
circles
33:44
like
33:44
a
33:45
balloon
33:45
that
33:46
we
33:46
tend
33:46
to
33:46
grow
33:46
through.
33:47
Ultimately
33:48
we're
33:48
also
33:49
all
33:49
of
33:49
it.
33:50
So
33:50
it's
33:50
not
33:50
a
33:50
better
33:51
than
33:51
or
33:51
worse
33:52
than.
33:52
It's
33:52
nothing
33:53
like
33:53
that.
33:53
It's
33:54
these
33:54
waves,
33:55
like
33:55
waves
33:56
on
33:56
an
33:56
ocean
33:57
that
33:57
we
33:57
go
33:57
through.
33:58
And
33:58
so
33:58
understanding
33:59
what
34:01
stage
34:02
or
34:02
wave,
34:02
or
34:02
let's
34:03
say
34:03
tone
34:04
I'm
34:04
coming
34:05
from
34:05
in
34:06
any
34:06
given
34:06
moment,
34:07
I'm
34:08
coming
34:08
from
34:08
as
34:09
Kimberly,
34:09
a
34:10
person
34:10
with
34:10
history
34:11
and
34:11
a
34:11
psychology
34:11
and
34:12
all
34:12
of
34:12
these
34:12
different
34:13
stages
34:14
inside
34:14
of
34:15
me,
34:15
from
34:16
the
34:16
3
34:16
year
34:16
old
34:17
Kimberly
34:17
to
34:17
the
34:17
10
34:18
year
34:18
old
34:18
Kimberly
34:19
to
34:19
the
34:19
20
34:20
year
34:20
old
34:20
Kimberly
34:20
to
34:20
now
34:21
the
34:21
50
34:21
something
34:22
year
34:22
old
34:22
Kimberly.
34:23
Right.
34:24
I
34:24
need
34:24
to
34:24
be
34:25
aware
34:25
of
34:25
what?
34:26
Am
34:26
I
34:27
having
34:27
an
34:27
argument
34:28
with
34:28
my
34:28
husband
34:28
right
34:29
now
34:29
and
34:29
reverting
34:30
to
34:30
teenager
34:30
self.
34:32
It
34:32
could
34:32
be
34:33
that
34:33
I
34:33
am
34:34
actually
34:34
acting
34:34
like
34:35
my
34:35
teenager
34:36
stage
34:36
of
34:36
development
34:36
right
34:37
now.
34:37
I'm
34:37
aware
34:37
of
34:38
that,
34:38
right?
34:39
Even
34:39
as
34:39
I'm
34:40
resting
34:40
in
34:40
a
34:40
clear
34:41
light,
34:41
I'm
34:41
aware
34:42
of
34:42
that.
34:42
Who
34:42
am
34:43
I
34:43
talking
34:43
to?
34:43
What
34:44
stage
34:44
is
34:45
presenting
34:46
from
34:46
them
34:47
right
34:47
now?
34:47
Whether
34:48
it
34:48
be
34:48
individually
34:49
or
34:49
whether
34:49
it
34:49
be
34:49
somebody
34:50
from
34:50
a
34:50
different
34:51
belief
34:52
system
34:52
or
34:52
political
34:53
party
34:54
or
34:55
history
34:56
or
34:57
group
34:58
or
34:58
society.
34:59
So
34:59
where
34:59
am
34:59
I
35:00
coming
35:00
from?
35:01
Where
35:01
is
35:01
this
35:02
other
35:02
person
35:02
coming
35:02
from?
35:03
You
35:03
know,
35:03
where?
35:03
What's
35:04
their
35:04
meaning
35:04
making
35:05
in
35:05
this
35:05
moment
35:05
which
35:06
affects
35:06
their
35:06
reality
35:07
and
35:07
the
35:08
reality
35:08
that
35:08
they
35:08
are
35:09
actually
35:09
seeing
35:10
and
35:10
experiencing
35:12
and
35:13
that
35:13
I
35:13
adjust
35:14
accordingly.
35:14
You
35:14
know,
35:15
this
35:15
is
35:15
part
35:15
of
35:15
the
35:15
ethics
35:16
that
35:16
I'm
35:17
operating
35:17
on
35:18
and
35:18
that
35:18
we
35:18
want
35:18
to
35:18
get
35:19
to
35:19
developmentally
35:20
is
35:20
that
35:21
I
35:21
can't
35:21
go
35:21
around
35:22
convincing
35:22
everybody,
35:23
shaming
35:24
everybody,
35:25
yelling
35:26
at
35:26
everybody
35:27
to
35:27
believe
35:27
the
35:27
way
35:28
I
35:28
do.
35:29
How
35:29
well
35:29
does
35:29
that
35:30
work?
35:30
Not
35:31
very
35:31
well.
35:33
I
35:34
mean,
35:34
come
35:34
on.
35:35
But
35:35
what
35:35
if
35:36
I
35:36
sit
35:36
down
35:37
with
35:37
my
35:38
family
35:39
member
35:40
at
35:41
Thanksgiving,
35:42
right?
35:43
Or
35:43
at
35:43
the
35:43
holiday
35:44
table
35:45
and
35:47
attuned
35:48
first
35:48
to
35:49
where
35:49
I'm
35:49
truly
35:50
coming
35:50
from,
35:51
Keep
35:51
myself
35:52
regulated
35:53
is
35:54
key.
35:55
Right.
35:55
Divine
35:55
light,
35:56
ideally.
35:57
Right
35:57
to
35:57
be
35:58
in
35:58
that
35:58
place
35:59
and
35:59
attune
36:00
to
36:01
where
36:01
this
36:01
being
36:01
is
36:02
coming
36:02
from
36:02
in
36:02
any
36:02
given
36:03
moment,
36:03
it
36:04
could
36:04
change
36:05
and
36:06
speak
36:06
to
36:06
them.
36:06
We're
36:07
all
36:07
together
36:07
in
36:08
this.
36:08
We're
36:08
all,
36:09
you
36:09
know,
36:10
waves
36:10
in
36:11
the
36:11
ocean
36:12
and
36:12
to
36:12
connect
36:13
and
36:13
to
36:13
empathize
36:14
and
36:14
to
36:14
get
36:15
in
36:15
their
36:15
shoes
36:15
and
36:15
to
36:16
see
36:16
where
36:16
they're
36:16
coming
36:16
from
36:17
and
36:17
to
36:17
find
36:18
the
36:18
common
36:18
ground.
36:19
And
36:20
developmental
36:21
education
36:21
and
36:21
tools
36:22
can
36:22
very
36:22
much
36:23
help
36:23
us
36:23
do
36:23
that
36:24
because
36:24
the
36:24
language
36:25
we
36:25
use
36:26
is
36:26
different
36:27
depending
36:28
on
36:28
what
36:28
developmental
36:29
meaning
36:29
making
36:30
the
36:30
objects
36:31
we
36:31
see
36:32
are
36:32
different.
36:34
And
36:34
as
36:35
I
36:35
said,
36:35
how
36:35
we
36:35
make
36:36
meaning
36:36
is
36:36
different.
36:36
I
36:37
want
36:37
everybody
36:37
to
36:38
understand
36:38
it
36:38
really
36:38
is
36:38
a
36:39
different
36:39
reality.
36:40
So
36:40
arguing
36:41
over
36:41
which
36:42
is
36:42
more
36:42
real
36:44
is
36:44
not
36:44
going
36:44
to
36:44
get
36:44
us
36:45
anywhere.
36:47
Particularly
36:47
since
36:48
the
36:48
differences
36:48
are
36:49
usually
36:49
assumed
36:50
to
36:50
be
36:50
differences
36:51
of
36:51
attitude
36:51
or.
36:52
Or
36:52
belief
36:53
rather
36:53
than
36:54
grounded
36:54
in
36:55
different
36:55
developmental
36:56
stages.
36:56
And
36:56
it
36:56
feels
36:57
like
36:57
so
36:57
much
36:57
of
36:57
our.
36:58
Our
36:59
cultural
36:59
divisiveness
37:00
at
37:00
this
37:00
stage
37:01
is
37:01
a
37:01
reflection
37:01
of
37:02
arguments
37:02
across
37:03
different
37:03
stages
37:04
rather
37:04
than
37:05
just
37:05
different
37:05
attitudes
37:06
or
37:06
perspectives.
37:07
And
37:07
each
37:08
stage
37:08
trying
37:09
to
37:09
force
37:09
everybody
37:10
else
37:10
to
37:11
go
37:11
along
37:11
with
37:11
their
37:11
particular
37:12
values,
37:13
sometimes
37:13
even
37:13
violently.
37:14
You
37:14
know,
37:15
this
37:15
is
37:15
it.
37:15
This
37:16
is
37:16
what
37:16
I
37:16
believe.
37:16
Everybody
37:17
has
37:17
to
37:17
believe
37:17
this
37:18
way,
37:18
or
37:19
you're
37:19
not
37:20
fully
37:20
human
37:20
or
37:20
you
37:21
don't
37:21
deserve
37:22
respect,
37:22
or
37:23
maybe
37:23
you're
37:23
a
37:23
catwoman
37:24
or
37:24
something
37:24
like
37:25
that.
37:25
Right?
37:25
Absolutely.
37:26
And
37:26
it's
37:27
not
37:27
working
37:27
very
37:28
well.
37:28
And
37:29
in
37:29
fact,
37:29
if
37:30
we
37:30
can
37:31
really
37:31
embrace
37:32
our
37:32
instinct
37:33
for
37:33
true
37:34
plurality
37:35
and
37:35
apply
37:35
it
37:35
to
37:36
developmental
37:36
rights
37:37
and
37:37
understanding
37:38
and
37:38
see
37:38
the
37:38
beautiful
37:39
tapestry
37:39
of
37:40
those
37:40
who
37:40
think
37:40
differently
37:41
than
37:41
us
37:41
and
37:42
see
37:42
differently
37:42
than
37:42
us
37:43
and
37:43
really
37:43
leverage
37:44
the
37:44
strengths
37:44
of
37:45
each
37:45
of
37:45
those.
37:46
Then
37:46
we
37:46
can
37:46
find
37:46
our
37:47
way
37:47
forward,
37:47
Leverage
37:48
the
37:48
strengths
37:48
of
37:48
religion,
37:49
leverage
37:49
the
37:49
strengths
37:50
of
37:50
traditionalism,
37:51
leverage
37:51
the
37:51
strengths
37:52
of
37:53
social
37:53
justice
37:54
and
37:54
those
37:54
issues
37:55
and
37:55
awareness,
37:56
and
37:57
then
37:58
we
37:58
can
37:58
correct
37:58
the
37:59
overcorrection,
37:59
perhaps.
38:00
Beautiful.
38:01
I
38:01
hadn't
38:01
heard
38:01
anyone
38:02
phrase
38:02
it
38:02
the
38:02
way
38:03
you
38:03
did.
38:03
Leverage
38:03
the
38:04
strengths.
38:04
That's
38:05
beautiful.
38:05
Of
38:05
each
38:06
perspective
38:06
and
38:07
stage.
38:07
It's
38:08
a
38:08
very
38:08
beautiful
38:08
way
38:09
of
38:09
holding
38:09
it.
38:10
And
38:11
perhaps
38:11
we
38:11
need
38:11
to
38:12
add
38:12
in.
38:12
There's
38:13
been
38:13
so
38:13
much
38:14
emphasis
38:14
on
38:14
diversity,
38:15
but
38:15
there's
38:16
been
38:16
no
38:16
recognition
38:17
as
38:17
yet
38:18
of
38:18
the
38:18
actual,
38:19
even
38:19
existence
38:20
of
38:20
developmental
38:21
diversity
38:22
or
38:22
the
38:22
importance
38:23
of
38:23
recognizing
38:24
it
38:24
in
38:25
order
38:25
to
38:25
be
38:25
able
38:25
to
38:25
recognize
38:26
the
38:26
source
38:27
of
38:27
these
38:28
arguments.
38:29
So
38:30
many
38:30
arguments
38:31
and
38:31
so
38:31
many
38:31
divisions
38:32
in
38:32
culture
38:32
and
38:33
to
38:33
make
38:33
it
38:34
possible
38:34
to
38:34
even
38:35
begin
38:35
to
38:35
repair
38:36
them.
38:36
Yeah,
38:37
it
38:37
seems
38:37
almost
38:37
essential,
38:38
doesn't
38:38
it?
38:39
And
38:39
like
38:39
you
38:39
said,
38:40
Buddhism
38:40
keeps
38:41
evolving.
38:42
Adding
38:42
the
38:43
developmental
38:44
understanding
38:45
to
38:45
this
38:45
ancient
38:46
tradition
38:46
just
38:48
opens
38:48
everything
38:48
up.
38:49
It's
38:49
amazing.
38:49
Ken
38:50
used
38:50
to
38:50
say,
38:50
if
38:50
you
38:50
think
38:50
you're
38:50
enlightened,
38:51
go
38:51
home
38:52
for
38:52
the
38:52
holidays.
38:53
That's
38:53
right.
38:54
Right.
38:55
But
38:56
the
38:56
way
38:56
you
38:56
described
38:57
it
38:57
is
38:57
exactly
38:58
if
38:58
you're
38:58
enlightened,
38:59
how
38:59
you
38:59
would
38:59
act.
38:59
Going
39:00
home
39:00
for
39:00
the
39:00
holidays.
39:00
It's
39:01
very,
39:01
very
39:01
good
39:02
the
39:02
way
39:02
you
39:02
said
39:02
it.
39:03
Yeah.
39:04
There
39:04
was
39:04
a
39:04
psychiatrist
39:05
by
39:05
the
39:05
name
39:05
of
39:05
Arthur
39:05
Dyckman
39:06
who
39:07
had.
39:07
Who
39:08
had
39:08
his.
39:08
A
39:09
test
39:09
of
39:09
enlightenment,
39:10
which
39:10
came
39:10
to
39:10
be
39:10
known
39:10
as
39:11
the
39:11
Dyckman
39:12
Test
39:12
of
39:12
Enlightenment.
39:12
And
39:13
first
39:13
I
39:13
thought
39:13
it
39:14
was
39:14
a
39:14
joke,
39:14
and
39:14
then
39:14
the
39:15
more
39:15
I
39:15
thought
39:16
his
39:17
test
39:17
was,
39:18
you
39:18
want
39:18
to
39:18
know
39:18
if
39:18
someone's
39:19
awake,
39:19
ask
39:20
the
39:20
spouse.
39:22
Yeah,
39:23
that's
39:24
a
39:24
good
39:24
test.
39:25
Absolutely.
39:27
Yes.
39:29
Yeah.
39:29
Mrs.
39:29
Buddha
39:30
wasn't
39:30
very
39:30
convinced.
39:31
She
39:31
was
39:31
like,
39:32
enlightenment
39:32
Schmeman,
39:33
why
39:33
don't
39:33
you
39:33
stay
39:34
home
39:34
with
39:34
me
39:34
and
39:34
the
39:35
kids?
39:35
You
39:35
know?
39:35
Yes,
39:36
that
39:36
comes
39:37
back
39:37
from
39:37
the
39:37
story.
39:38
So.
39:38
Yeah.
39:39
Kimberly,
39:40
what
39:40
do
39:40
you
39:40
see
39:41
as.
39:42
What
39:42
actually
39:43
changes
39:43
as
39:44
people
39:44
mature?
39:45
I
39:45
mean,
39:45
I'm
39:45
thinking
39:46
of
39:46
the
39:47
various
39:48
capacities
39:48
seem
39:49
to
39:49
come
39:49
online
39:51
in
39:51
sequential
39:52
ways,
39:53
and
39:54
you
39:54
emphasized
39:55
one
39:55
of
39:55
them
39:56
earlier.
39:56
That
39:56
is
39:56
the
39:57
capacity
39:57
for
39:58
a
39:58
larger
39:59
perspective,
40:00
encompassing
40:01
more
40:01
and
40:02
more
40:02
people
40:02
in
40:03
one's
40:04
scope
40:04
of
40:05
care
40:05
and
40:05
concern.
40:06
And
40:06
not
40:06
only
40:07
spatial,
40:07
but
40:08
also
40:08
temporal.
40:08
That
40:09
is,
40:09
the
40:09
capacity
40:10
to
40:10
take
40:11
more
40:11
generations
40:12
into
40:12
account.
40:12
For
40:13
example,
40:13
the
40:13
beautiful
40:14
Native
40:14
American
40:14
tradition
40:15
of
40:15
think
40:15
of
40:16
the
40:16
effects
40:16
of
40:16
what
40:16
you're
40:16
doing
40:17
on
40:17
the
40:17
seventh
40:17
generation.
40:18
So.
40:19
But
40:20
what
40:20
are
40:20
some
40:20
of
40:20
the
40:21
other
40:21
capacities
40:22
that
40:22
tend
40:22
to
40:22
come
40:23
online
40:24
as
40:25
people
40:25
mature?
40:27
Stay
40:27
tuned
40:27
for
40:28
part
40:28
three
40:28
of
40:28
our
40:29
transformational
40:30
conversation
40:30
with
40:31
Kimberly
40:31
Lafferty.
40:32
Thank
40:33
you
40:33
very
40:33
much
40:34
for
40:34
being
40:34
a
40:34
part
40:34
of
40:35
this
40:35
conversation.
40:36
We
40:36
hope
40:36
that
40:36
you
40:37
were
40:37
moved,
40:37
as
40:38
we
40:38
are
40:38
moved,
40:38
being
40:39
part
40:39
of
40:39
it
40:39
ourselves.
40:40
We'd
40:40
also
40:41
like
40:41
to
40:41
say
40:41
that
40:41
this
40:42
is
40:42
being
40:42
funded
40:43
by
40:43
Roger
40:43
and
40:43
myself.
40:44
It
40:44
comes
40:44
out
40:44
of
40:44
our
40:45
pockets.
40:45
So
40:45
if
40:45
you
40:45
would
40:45
like
40:46
to
40:46
help
40:46
us
40:46
to
40:47
mainly
40:48
to
40:48
get
40:48
this
40:48
podcast
40:49
out
40:49
to
40:49
more
40:49
people,
40:50
because
40:50
the
40:50
bigger
40:50
audience
40:51
have
40:51
which
40:51
is
40:51
steadily
40:52
growing,
40:52
but
40:52
the
40:52
more
40:53
people
40:53
we
40:53
can
40:53
reach
40:53
and
40:54
the
40:54
more
40:54
marketing
40:54
we
40:55
can
40:55
do,
40:55
the
40:55
more
40:56
positive
40:56
effect
40:56
we
40:57
can
40:57
have
40:57
on
40:57
the
40:57
world.
40:58
So
40:58
we've
40:58
done
40:58
a
40:58
couple
40:59
of
40:59
ways,
40:59
but
40:59
we'd
40:59
like
40:59
you
41:00
to
41:00
buy
41:00
us
41:00
a
41:00
cup
41:01
of
41:01
coffee,
41:01
very
41:02
simple.
41:02
And
41:02
I
41:02
do
41:02
that
41:02
with
41:03
podcasts
41:04
that
41:04
I
41:04
support.
41:05
And
41:05
I
41:05
find
41:06
it's
41:06
very
41:06
satisfying.
41:07
So
41:07
thank
41:07
you
41:07
for
41:08
your
41:08
help,
41:08
thank
41:08
you
41:09
for
41:09
your
41:09
presence
41:09
and
41:09
thank
41:10
you
41:10
for
41:10
all
41:10
you
41:11
are
41:11
and
41:11
all
41:11
you
41:11
do.
41:12
We
41:12
love
41:12
you.