Latest / The imuRgency Room / Mehdi Hasan, Jubilee & The Normalization of Extremism

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Mehdi Hasan, Jubilee & The Normalization of Extremism · The imuRgency Room

• 0:00
  Oh, a new Jubilee video. Let's see what they got going on
• 0:02
  today. Yeah, today we brought together
• 0:04
  6 people. One of them's a serial killer in
• 0:06
  five with the next victims. Can you figure out who the odd
• 0:09
  man out is? Let's see, today we brought
• 0:13
  together 5 people who prefer oat milk in their lattes and five
• 0:17
  people who would kill oat milk drinkers.
• 0:18
  Oh, welcome back to 10 people who love petting puppies versus
• 0:22
  1 nuke. OK, let's, let's, let's try one
• 0:25
  more. Today we brought together 1
• 0:27
  overqualified, well bred ethnic minority versus 24 Chan's
• 0:31
  finest, most bigoted individuals you'll ever meet.
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  And we're going to find out who gets home.
• 0:35
  Perfect. Hey guys, it's up to emergency.
• 0:37
  And welcome, welcome back to my channel.
• 0:39
  In all seriousness, we need to have a serious conversation
• 0:42
  about Jubilee because it's actually getting not only scary,
• 0:44
  but also pretty harmful. And I think at this point,
• 0:47
  Jubilee has made one too many questionable videos at best and
• 0:51
  just flat out dangerous at worst.
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  If for whatever reason you're unfamiliar with what Jubilee is,
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  they are a former nonprofit company turned media production
• 0:58
  company that initially set out to tell stories about
• 1:00
  connection, have hard conversations and essentially
• 1:03
  lead with empathy. But what it's turned into now is
• 1:06
  essentially the landing spot for all the worst people that you
• 1:09
  know and wish you didn't to come together to maximize their joint
• 1:12
  bigotry for viral clips online. And one of the main reasons why
• 1:15
  I'm even talking about this and why this has become more of a
• 1:17
  viral discussion, has to do with one of the recent videos called
• 1:20
  One Progressive versus 20 Conservatives, where the one
• 1:23
  progressive they brought on was a Brown journalist and writer
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  who, despite being a naturalized American citizen, was told
• 1:29
  repeatedly to go back to his country, among other problematic
• 1:32
  far right and even fascist rhetoric.
• 1:34
  So yeah, we need to talk about it.
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  This video, we're talking about Jubilee, the whole niche of
• 1:38
  common ground content and whether or not it's OK to be
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  platforming or debating problematic or just generally
• 1:44
  bigoted people or ideologies for the sake of content and virality
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  in Lou, everything that's been going on in this country and the
• 1:50
  rest of the world. And to really get started, I
• 1:51
  think we do need to take a look at Jubilee themselves, or at
• 1:54
  least the history of Jubilee because like I alluded to, we
• 1:57
  have not always been here. Jubilee wasn't always like this.
• 2:00
  Taking a little Scroll down the Jubilee footprint.
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  Jubilee, formerly known as Jubilee Project, according to
• 2:04
  founder Jason Lee, was a nonprofit set out to create
• 2:07
  viral digital content for nonprofits and causes.
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  It was initially a place for short films.
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  In short human interest stories about connection, hard
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  conversations and raising awareness for things like
• 2:16
  charities. A lot of their early viral
• 2:18
  videos include things like divorce, couple shares each side
• 2:21
  of their love story, or people read the most hurtful words
• 2:23
  strangers have ever received. Generally emotionally pulling
• 2:25
  seemingly innocuous videos about connection and the human
• 2:29
  experience. Versus now there's content like
• 2:31
  who's the secret Satanist? And should the US deport its
• 2:34
  citizens? Like there's definitely been a
• 2:35
  content shift here and I for one, I'm never going to hate on
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  someone make it a content pivot and doing what works because at
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  the end of the day, content creation is a job.
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  But I do have to draw the line when that content becomes
• 2:45
  dangerous and exceedingly problematic.
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  Like where we are now, we're essentially rage bait is being
• 2:49
  repackaged and disguised as conversation or connecting when
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  in reality what's happening in these videos is nothing of the
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  sort. In 2017, the Jubilee project
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  became Jubilee Media and it stopped being a non profit.
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  But they kept the YouTube Journal and in an interview with
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  Taylor Lorenz, Shout Out Taylor, The founder, Jason, says that
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  the shift came about during the 2016 presidential election to
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  become a media company instead, to create content.
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  I mean, the space to talk to each other on each side of the
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  political spectrum. Their tagline at the time was
• 3:15
  the Disney of empathy, which is interesting considering where
• 3:17
  we're at now. And the founder themselves said
• 3:19
  that they wanted that to be their brand and to be the hub of
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  all things empathy. And at that time, middle ground
• 3:23
  was one of their most popular shows, getting people from
• 3:25
  different sides to debate or acclaim or an ideology.
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  So think things like Christians versus atheists or Republicans
• 3:31
  versus Democrats, things like that, where the two groups would
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  ultimately have to try and find some middle ground, some
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  understanding so that they can come to understand each other
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  better or at least take something new away that they
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  didn't walk in already knowing or feeling our understanding.
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  And I think at first we really saw some of that because we had
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  not really seen something like that before.
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  And around that time was when we really started to see this
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  increased polarization of ideologies, of politics of
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  whatever. And it seemed like people really
• 3:54
  weren't talking to each other. So having this medium or two
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  opposing sides that normally would not discuss or talk to
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  each other in a civil manner come together and seemingly do
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  something of that sort was amazing.
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  And while for some it's debatable over whether or that
• 4:07
  purpose was actually achieved or not, at the very least we got
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  amazing sound bites in amazing moments like this.
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  Most people commit men. Most people who work in
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  dangerous workplaces are men. Most people fighting war are
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  men. And who set that system up?
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  They're also known for other series like the Odd One Out and
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  the one that we're going to talk about more extensively in this
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  video Surrounded. They even have disclaimers in
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  some of the videos where they directly say like, yeah, this is
• 4:30
  a social experiment. And actually let me read
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  directly from the disclaimer. Middle Ground is a social
• 4:34
  experiment that brings humans with opposing beliefs together.
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  These discussions may contain viewpoints that are the result
• 4:39
  of misinformation. Remember to seek out experts and
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  be critical of your own biases while forming an opinion.
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  Please seek the humanity in each participant.
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  And as always, we encourage empathy.
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  And I think that it's great and good on them and that they have
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  these disclaimers in front of their videos before anything
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  that comes after. And that they also have, at
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  least for the more recent video that I'm going to be talking
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  about, about like the progressive versus the 20
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  conservatives, like live fact checking to help Fact Check some
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  of the misinformation. But when the people that you're
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  platforming in the social experiment are laundering far
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  right fascist rhetoric. And those are the viral clips
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  that are getting sent out without any disclaimer or
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  without any fact checking in the clips.
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  I don't know exactly how much that's doing.
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  And this isn't the case for just Jubilee.
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  Like it's for the entire niche, the entire content vertical.
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  And as time has gone on, Jubilee and other similar channels have
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  began to become more and more extreme in terms of the people
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  that they bring on and the conversations had where it seems
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  like it's no longer solely about building empathy and having
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  conversations. And it's more so to do with who
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  can cause the most amount of drama and say the most
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  outlandish thing to clip pharma go viral.
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  Like in the hour and 40 minute video of the one progressive
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  versus 20 conservatives, the quiet part has never been said
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  so loud as the panel of 20 far right conservatives consists of
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  fascists, pro yacht white nationalists and other far right
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  conservatives that are shaking in their boats because they have
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  to defend their points. And on the Jubilee Channel, this
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  specific video's style or series is called Surrounded, which is
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  basically their debate style show where they bring on one
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  person on one end of the spectrum and 20 people on the
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  other side of the spectrum. And as you'd expect from the
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  setup and the nature of this style of discussion, it's very
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  conducive to bad faith arguments, owned moments, and
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  some of the most deliberate trolls and rage baiters you have
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  ever seen in your life. And the one progressive in this
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  case is another than Mehdi Hassan, who in his own right is
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  super qualified, who is a British American progressive
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  journalist, broadcaster, writer, and he often debates with
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  Republicans on political news and is a self-proclaimed person
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  who loves arguing to the one where he has a whole book on it
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  all. And to bring someone like that,
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  also a person of color, mind you, to debate people who were
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  citing pro Yahtzee theorists like Carl Schmidt as well as
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  literal dictators like Francisco Franco, it's clear that there
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  was not going to be a good faith argument there at any point.
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  And of course, throughout the discussion, Mehdi was told to
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  leave the country. But.
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  Listen to me, I'm an immigrant. I'm speaking from first
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  experience the hell out. I don't even like I should get
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  the hell out. Yes, Why I?
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  Don't want you here. Question is status as an
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  American citizen despite being a naturalized citizen and was told
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  that he would be one of the first ones to go.
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  You're gonna have to. Go nice talking to you.
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  You're going to have to go, bro, is what he said as I left to an
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  American citizen. And to that, I have to ask,
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  like, how is any of this built to foster this empathy that
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  seems to be the mission of this channel?
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  Like you can't build empathy or connection with someone who does
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  not see you as human or at least as an equal.
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  And that's one of my main problems with this format of
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  video. Like at this point in history,
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  the whole concept of political debate and essentially what it
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  feels like in a lot of these video formats is that you're
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  putting people on here to defend or debate the right to exist.
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  And that inherently makes it a bad faith conversation.
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  It makes it seem more like a grift.
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  It's simply just and gets the engagement.
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  Sure, but like at what cost? And in an interview with Tim
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  Miller post the jubilee of it all, Mehdi Hassan says that the
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  idea to be on this show was pitched to him as the title
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  suggested, one progressive versus 20 far right.
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  Because he'd see many far right or conservative pundits
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  previously like Kadiso and Shirley Kirk.
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  Ben Shapiro also appear on the series and have good faith
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  conversations with progressives on the other side, but would not
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  see as many leftists doing the same thing.
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  Which I guess is cool to have a break from the continuous
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  Republican talking head debates. He also said that his platform
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  isn't typically Gen. Z or younger demographic, but
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  his kids and nephews knew of Jubilee so he wanted them to see
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  a progressive broadcaster. Had this debate with what he was
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  told to be right leaning conservatives and Trump
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  supporters, but allegedly he had no idea what he was actually in
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  for. He says that he refrains from
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  debating racists and fascists because bad faith arguments
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  aren't actually debate. So he was caught off guard when
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  he thought were just regular Trump supporters turned out to
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  be far right racist and fascists.
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  Like who the hell is Jubilee platforming?
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  And what's honestly most shocking and kind of sad about
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  this whole thing is that he says that within his 25 years of
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  being a journalist, both in the US and in Britain, that
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  appearing on this show without a shadow of the doubt was the most
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  insane thing that he had ever done.
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  Well, let's take a second to talk about exactly why this
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  conversation and why necessarily what Jubilee has been doing is
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  so inherently harmful. For one, we have to talk about
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  the hypocrisy of wanting to establish middle ground and
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  wanting to have a conversation without actually moderating the
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  conversation at all and just kind of letting it happen and
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  get as bad as it needs to get. Like oftentimes, not in all
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  cases, but oftentimes in these conversations, it is like a
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  presser versus as oppressed. And rarely out of these
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  conversations is empathy ever built or anything really
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  illuminated in any way. Like you have people out here
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  that are being discriminated against for just existing and
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  then having them on the show to defend their humanity like that.
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  That's just wild to me. And I know none of these people
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  are held here against their will.
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  Like everyone on these shows signs up to be on Jubilee,
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  right? I just think that the
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  conversations themselves and the way they're facilitated are a
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  little wild. And the people that they are
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  choosing to be on the show and pit against each other are
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  rarely ever on the same footing. Because what do you mean you
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  have actual scientists debating flat earthers?
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  Also within their shows, especially in middle ground, the
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  way the questions are framed definitely have a certain slant
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  to them to make them a little bit more emotionally engaging
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  and also seem to have like an alt right framing to them.
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  Like do you feel disgusted when you see a fat body?
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  What kind of topic point is that?
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  And how do you continue the discussion from there?
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  Like how are you going to find middle ground on that question
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  when the person you're debating is like the guy from fresh and
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  fit? Like if the times in 2016 where
• 10:00
  the content shifted, we're polarizing.
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  Now in 2025, the stakes are even higher and things are even more
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  polarizing because like, what do you mean we're debating actual
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  fascists? And that's another one of my big
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  problems with this. Like from what I've seen, the
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  discussions have never really had at the same level or
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  standard. Like there's no reason for an
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  overly qualified person who's an expert in their field to be
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  debating someone whose knowledge based on the topic consists of
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  only a few Google searches, and to have those two opinions be
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  held at the same validity and the same level of importance.
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  Like no, this isn't me saying that like only certain opinions
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  should be talked about. But yes, some opinions and
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  thoughts and ideologies have more legitimacy than others.
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  Like yes, it's OK that an expert in their field of 20 years knows
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  more than you on a specific topic than you do that you just
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  looked up yesterday. Like what's happening here is a
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  great depiction of where we are in the anti intellectualism
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  crisis that we're going through. Experts in their field are no
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  longer listened to or thought to have the legitimacy that they
• 10:52
  have rightfully earned, or at least more so earned than like
• 10:55
  your average everyday person. And instead of believing that
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  and taking that and debating it in an educational or nuanced
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  way, we favor more emotionally charged or relatable thoughts
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  and opinions that make you feel like what they're saying is
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  right, despite there being no evidence to that.
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  Like just because you're saying something passionately, loudly
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  and with conviction does not make it true.
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  Like people please. And going back to that
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  interview, I mean, in the words of Hassan in this video, like
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  where does Jubilee find these people?
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  Where do they find you? And what's crazy to me about
• 11:21
  this is that without a doubt, Jubilee is like vetting people,
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  at least to some degree to know who's going to be on the show.
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  And according to Mehdi, like they do interview the people to
• 11:29
  some degree. And he had somehow this well
• 11:30
  known anti-Semitic friends with Nick Puentes.
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  Connor guy gets on the show. You know, the one who said he's,
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  he's proudly fascist and laughed about it.
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  Why is he on the show and why was he allowed to be on the
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  show? Like, how are you going to build
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  empathy, build community and like find some kind of
• 11:43
  understanding when you have people like that, that if you're
• 11:45
  that far down the pipeline, you're not going to change your
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  mind despite, no matter what someone is going to tell you.
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  What is the point of that? Because minds aren't being
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  changed in the way that I think they want.
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  And what's ultimately happening as a result of this is that
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  we're just legitimizing things like fascism and other bigoted
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  ideologies because by having these conversations and putting
• 12:05
  them on the table and debating them with a whole bunch of other
• 12:08
  issues and holding them to the same weight, we normalize those
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  conversations and beliefs and ideologies where they're not as
• 12:13
  taboo or they're not like things were like, Oh no, let's stay as
• 12:16
  far away from that as possible. It's like, oh, yeah, I can
• 12:18
  understand that. That's OK, which is a bad thing
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  for a number of reasons. But it continues to open the
• 12:22
  door for more and more extreme ideologies and beliefs to enter
• 12:26
  the public zeitgeist. It's no longer relegated to just
• 12:28
  4 Chan or other smaller corners in the Internet.
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  Like it literally makes its way into mainstream media.
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  And kind of getting to Mehdi's point about not debating like
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  racism, fashion, or whatever. Like there's no productivity
• 12:38
  coming from debating these people because these
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  conversations, no matter what your belief system is prior to,
• 12:42
  is only going to make you more staunch in your own beliefs.
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  Because in your mind, when you're debating people like this
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  without any form of moderation or without any form of like
• 12:49
  actual wanting for understanding, it's just
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  validating to everything you already think in your head about
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  these people. These are essentially just
• 12:56
  examples of people reiterating, defending, and polishing their
• 12:59
  own beliefs and arguments to make the debate more so about
• 13:02
  winning than actual understanding, compromise, or
• 13:05
  empathy and learning. So the whole empathy stick
• 13:07
  behind these videos is just really frustrating because
• 13:09
  that's just like not the method and format for that to actually
• 13:12
  be the case. Which makes you wonder, like, if
• 13:14
  that really is the goal. Because if so, that's not
• 13:17
  happening. And I already know I'm going to
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  see comments under this video like, well, by debating these
• 13:21
  people and showing these people on these platforms, it shows
• 13:24
  that these people really do exist.
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  I mean, which in some cases, they can be like, yeah, OK.
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  Then you can also just turn on your news and give a few swipes,
• 13:30
  and you'd see all of that already.
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  Like, we don't necessarily need more of this stuff.
• 13:34
  Now let's talk a little bit more specifically about the problems
• 13:37
  with platforming extremist ideologies and whether or not
• 13:41
  there should be a hardline and what that should be and what
• 13:44
  that would look like. In the same interview with
• 13:45
  Taylor Lorenz, Jubilee Sowder was directly asked about
• 13:48
  platforming and how there was essentially A marginalized
• 13:50
  community on one side and or I rage bait on the other and how
• 13:53
  they try to mitigate that. And essentially what he does for
• 13:55
  the video is talk in circles and he eloquently dances around the
• 13:58
  question, making a weird T-shirt analogy, saying that if him in
• 14:01
  the interviewer are wearing the same colored T-shirt, that
• 14:03
  doesn't mean that they'd agree. And if they wore different
• 14:05
  colored T-shirts, that doesn't mean that they would disagree.
• 14:07
  And it's kind of like a ludicrous idea if you think
• 14:09
  about the opposite, which is just because you and I both
• 14:12
  have, let's say a red shirt on or a blue shirt on, that we will
• 14:15
  agree 1000 of the same issues. Or if we have opposite colored
• 14:20
  shirts on that we would disagree on 1000 different issues.
• 14:25
  And I think it's like a more scary thought that we can't
• 14:27
  coexist in the same room. Which I mean, identities and
• 14:30
  ideology are not quite the same as T-shirt colors.
• 14:33
  So not quite the point and a little reductive, but we'll
• 14:36
  continue. But he goes on to say that it's
• 14:37
  more dangerous if two people with different beliefs can't sit
• 14:40
  in the same room together, even if the conversation isn't
• 14:42
  productive, possibly admitting that the conversations are
• 14:44
  productive. And then continues to dance
• 14:46
  around some more of the heavy hitting questions around
• 14:48
  platforming for ideologies and says a lot of nothing, which is
• 14:51
  apparent by a lot of the top comments under that video.
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  And my thing is like, I don't think that that's necessarily
• 14:55
  the case. Maybe that's the case like
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  interpersonally, like face to face in like everyday people's
• 15:00
  lives. But for the sake of this show,
• 15:02
  for the sake of what they're doing, that's not really true
• 15:05
  because you're casting people like Charlie Kerr, Candace
• 15:06
  Owens, Ben Shapiro, the list goes on and on.
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  People with some of the most extreme and arguably worst
• 15:11
  takes, like genuinely people that have ideologies in line
• 15:15
  with Yahtzeeism. Like you can't try and foster
• 15:17
  conversation or make connections or build empathy with people
• 15:20
  that have those sorts of beliefs.
• 15:21
  And I think that's OK to say. There are certain ideologies and
• 15:25
  are certain extremes that we should just not go to and not
• 15:28
  entertain or platform because again, you're not trying to find
• 15:31
  middle ground with that because there is no middle ground to
• 15:34
  Yahtzee ISM. There is no middle ground with
• 15:36
  extreme forms of hate. You can't negotiate with that.
• 15:38
  I think you say I'm a fist. Yeah, I am.
• 15:48
  Which then could mean that the intention is not for actually
• 15:51
  finding empathy, not for finding some sort of middle ground.
• 15:54
  It is for the sake of clicks, engagement in virality, which
• 15:57
  there is something to be said about that.
• 15:58
  Like in Many's video, he was right to state that he doesn't
• 16:01
  debate with fascists. Like someone in that video tried
• 16:03
  to bring that up as like a sort of a gotcha as to why he dropped
• 16:06
  out of that specific debate. But like, he was right.
• 16:08
  Many specifically, he's a professional debater.
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  And to debate with fascists, to debate with ideologies like that
• 16:13
  again, is to legitimize them. By debating extreme topics like
• 16:17
  that, you're making them acceptable, which means that
• 16:19
  there is something credible and you can't debate the humanity of
• 16:21
  a person. So where do you go from there?
• 16:23
  And it just really goes back to the whole, like, lack of good
• 16:25
  faith in these arguments and these discussions.
• 16:27
  Because maybe for some people, the intention behind coming on
• 16:29
  these shows is to actually debate and to change their
• 16:32
  perspective. But often times, more often than
• 16:35
  not, I would argue, no one's going on there to try and change
• 16:37
  their stance. They're going on there to create
• 16:38
  a moment to own a Lib and to ultimately promote and normalize
• 16:42
  their ideologies and ways of thinking to make more people
• 16:45
  susceptible, to get more and more people OK and used to
• 16:48
  accepting these extreme ideas as common ones or like things that
• 16:51
  like just the average everyday person is thinking.
• 16:54
  And, you know, it's a completely valid argument that we want the
• 16:57
  eradication of an entire group of people.
• 16:59
  Like that makes sense. That's something we should
• 17:00
  debate. It's just a hot take, a hot
• 17:02
  button issue, but is worthy of a debate.
• 17:04
  Like, no, no, we, we can't, we can't do this.
• 17:07
  I'm sorry. Like this was one of the bad
• 17:09
  ones. And that's sort of where I want
• 17:11
  to leave this video. Like, I don't want this to be
• 17:13
  like a giant hit piece against Jubilee.
• 17:14
  They don't need to completely shut down and burn to the ground
• 17:17
  like Jubilee will crumble type. Like, no, I'm just saying that
• 17:19
  for a channel that has over 10 million subscribers and tons of
• 17:22
  engagement, literally the internet's microphone, there
• 17:25
  should be a lot more thought put into who's being platformed and
• 17:28
  really being honest why these people are being selected and
• 17:30
  platformed in the way that they are knowing what the end results
• 17:32
  are. Like just because there is a
• 17:33
  holy mission statement behind the content of wanting to spread
• 17:36
  empathy and kindness, like there actually has to be actionable
• 17:39
  things behind that to prove it. Like it can't just be words.
• 17:42
  And right now it seems like it is.
• 17:44
  And I completely understand that content is content is content.
• 17:46
  Like people are reacting to it. Like it's doing numbers, it's
• 17:48
  doing well, but you're having people in your content making
• 17:51
  racist and xenophobic remarks towards other people on the
• 17:54
  show. They're trying to have good
• 17:55
  faith arguments or debates, which kind of stinks.
• 17:58
  The whole empathy thing. Like, well, yes, the content in
• 18:00
  Jubilee is debatably entertaining, at least the scope
• 18:02
  of that last video. Things have gone too far.