Latest / Private Lending Insights / Jon Hornik Talks Capital Markets, Trade Tensions, and the National Private Lenders Association

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Jon Hornik Talks Capital Markets, Trade Tensions, and the National Private Lenders Association · Private Lending Insights

• [00:00:00] Rocky Butani: Welcome to Private Lending Insights. I'm your host, Rocky Bati. In this episode, I interviewed Jon Hornik, who's the owner and leader of the National Private Lenders Association, and also the CEO of Private Lender Law. So Jon Jon is I. Uh, kind of a legend in the private lending industry, and, uh, has a lot of influence and a lot of knowledge about what's happening, um, by being, uh, an attorney in, in our space, he, uh, specializes in closings and settlements for a lot of large national lenders. [00:00:35] Rocky Butani: So he gets to see up close, uh, the, uh, you know, the transactions and the, and the volume and, um, you know, just has, has really good relationships with, with some really large players in. Private lending. Um, so he acquired the National Private Lenders Association back in 2022. Um, and, uh, has done a great job of, of operating it and growing it. [00:01:00] Rocky Butani: So I'm glad to have him on to, uh, talk about what's happening in the space and share a little bit about the NPLA. Jon is also the mayor of Marlborough Township in New Jersey, so he's running town. He's running the NPLA and a large law firm. I don't know how he does it. It's quite impressive, and he deserves a lot of respect for that. [00:01:21] Rocky Butani: If you've ever been to an NPLA conference and you see Jon Hornet speak on stage. It's, it's so impressive. He's, he's probably one of the best communicators in the private lending industry. Uh, and he not only shares information about, uh, about, uh, private lending. He, you know, he speaks a lot on the macroeconomic environment. [00:01:43] Rocky Butani: Uh, he has a lot of knowledge about, you know, capital markets and. Uh, he's just a really impressive speaker, so if you make it to an NPLA conference, I highly recommend that you watch this presentation. So let's get it started. Here's my interview with Jon Hornet. Jon, thanks for joining me for Private Lending Insights. [00:02:02] Rocky Butani: Uh, how's everything going with with you with NPLA with private lender law? [00:02:07] Jon Hornik: Uh, everything's great. Um, first of all, thank you for having me, Rocky. It's been a little while since we spoke. It's good to see you, uh, hope everything's well with you and everything you're doing. Um, these are interesting times to be in private lending, uh, to, to be in any kind of lending right now or any kind of business. [00:02:23] Jon Hornik: Uh, these are I. Definitely, uh, uncertain times. So we're busy, we're challenged. Uh, we're working harder than ever. Um, the space needs insight and comfort and everything that's important, and we're trying to give it to 'em during these very uncertain times. [00:02:39] Rocky Butani: Absolutely. So, uh, you know, it's a, it's a little early in this, if you wanna call it a, a tariff crisis, um, to see the real effects of it. [00:02:47] Rocky Butani: But, but what's your. Take on what's happening in private lending as of right now, April 21st, 2025. [00:02:54] Jon Hornik: So, yeah, it's really important that this date. Be laid out there because things are changing at a quicker pace than I ever recall in history. So, uh, private credit, private lending has remained strong. Uh, I think in a lot of ways when uncertainty is created, it's the last source of lending. [00:03:15] Jon Hornik: So that we stay more robust than some more traditional wa uh, lending, conventional lending. Um, but, but the area that that raises concern is the pricing. So the markets are ch, the pricing is changing very, very quickly now, based on the uncertainty and, you know, not to get too technical, uh, but usually when things are unsure, people rush to us treasuries, and that's the safe haven. [00:03:44] Jon Hornik: That's where people go and the yield on the treasuries usually goes down because so many people want it to be safe, and it's not what's happening during this crisis. So one of two things are happening. The US treasury trade, which is this, traditionally, the safe trade historically, is no longer viewed as the safe haven as it once was, which is really problematic or equally as problematic. [00:04:14] Jon Hornik: Those countries that hold treasuries, Japan being the largest with $1 trillion, and China right behind them with 800 billion are unloading those treasuries. So how does that impact the private lending space? The long-term rates on DSCR and those products are, are increasing with short-term rates coming down lower. [00:04:38] Jon Hornik: So it's unusual. It's not supposed to be that way. Short-term debt. Should, should, should be, uh, uh, moving, moving in a different way right now. So it's, it's, it's, it's a weird time and the spreads are higher than they should be, and people are nervous. [00:04:54] Rocky Butani: And the, the pricing, you know, this all has been playing out just in the last 30 days. [00:04:59] Rocky Butani: Have, have you actually seen pricing change, um, in, in that, uh, you know, way that you laid out where the, the DSCR rates are, are increasing, but the, the short term bridge loan rates are decreasing. [00:05:12] Jon Hornik: The buy on the, I just got an alert today from one of our clients that the buy on the DSCR has come down, but there's still a premium. [00:05:20] Jon Hornik: It's either a hundred or 200 basis points above par, which is okay. It's less than it was traditionally. Um, the, the concern with the DSCR rate in the long term is what they call the credit spreads. So, quick, quick, we'll wrap up, you know, macro on what's going on. You have treasury rates, which is like the interest rate. [00:05:40] Jon Hornik: Okay. And it's moving. But it's the risk premium put on top of it because investors don't know what to do with this uncertainty. And those spreads blew out close to 200 basis points above the normal rate, and now they're starting to pare down A little one of my banker friends said, Hey, um, and we gave this report on the NPLA meeting, uncertainty's, the new normal. [00:06:06] Jon Hornik: If you want to do business and you want to make money, you're gonna have to be comfortable operating in a period of uncertainty. And that's really, um, the message that we all have to uptake. We are not going to sleep well at night for some time now. There is a major trade war going on with China and those things do not get settled overnight. [00:06:29] Jon Hornik: And uh, you know, this is, this is a problem. Um, even. The president who's now leaning on Jerome Powell, the Fed Federal Reserve chairman, and saying Lower rates, you're too late today. He called him, uh, I think he called him stupid, but I'm not sure what he called them, but whatever he called them, that's not gonna affect what's going on now. [00:06:50] Jon Hornik: This is the long-term rate. Mortgage rates are up. Everything is going up right now because of this phenomenon on yields and treasuries. So we have to wait to see how it plays out. Um, in our position at Private Lender Law in the NPLA, I fortunately get to talk to a lot of people every day. You know, there's constant texts, what's up? [00:07:12] Jon Hornik: Chats going on with people, and people are definitely nervous. I mean, it's a nervous time to be in this space, but I will say this rocky. I, I have made the best moves of my career during trouble times because of those who could keep their wits about them. Have the ability to make moves and grab market, share those who curl up in a ball and hope just to survive. [00:07:35] Jon Hornik: That's a dangerous place to be. 'cause that could last a long time. So, during every difficulty I've had leaps and bounds in terms of my businesses. So I have coined the phrase, trouble is opportunity. If, if you have, you know, dry powder. You're willing to take a risk and a chance during these times. That could be big payoffs. [00:07:55] Rocky Butani: And, you know, speaking of people sitting on the sidelines, what do you think about the securitization market? If, if, let's say RTL rates are coming down a little bit, let's say they even just stay the same or, or even if they go up, do you think the securitizations are going to. Slow down and maybe pause and, and investors might just say, Hey, we're not doing anything right now. [00:08:17] Rocky Butani: Let's just wait this out. [00:08:19] Jon Hornik: As of today, that's not happening. We're not seeing that in any, across any marketplace. Uh, but that could change tomorrow like that. The problem with the space is, or any investor space, they could wake up tomorrow and go, you know what? I don't have an appetite for anymore RTL or DSER. [00:08:38] Jon Hornik: I just don't have an appetite for it right now based on what's going on. But as of today. The, the security markets are still flowing. Insurance companies are still investing. Um, they have tightened their, they, they have, they're asking for more to invest in the space. They want a bigger return. And what I'm told is those exceptions for loans that are usually included in in pools and securitizations are not being allowed anymore. [00:09:06] Jon Hornik: So if you don't hit the, the required FICO score, it's out. If, if, if it's too much of an advance in an area, it's out. If it's in Florida, it's out. So there's, there's the, the requirements, the box is tightening for what fits into it, but so far there's been no major. Major investment firms backing away from the space. [00:09:29] Jon Hornik: But again, this is, we quoted it's April 21st at 4:11 PM on the East Coast by five o'clock. That could change. That's what is the nervousness and the uncertainty right now. [00:09:42] Rocky Butani: Yeah. And it is kind of early in this whole process. Um, so, you know, maybe we can get you back on in, in the next 60 days and get another update, uh, on what you're seeing. [00:09:52] Rocky Butani: Um, so, so let's segue into, into the NPLA. Um, you know, one thing that I've loved about being an NPLA member is, uh. And the past was that, uh, it's just the, the biweekly, or sorry, the bimonthly meetings where you guys meet every. Two weeks and it's a Zoom meeting, and everyone gets together and just talks about what's happening in the space. [00:10:13] Rocky Butani: And in times like this, that I'm sure your, your meetings are filling up and you're, you're at capacity, uh, because everyone wants to collaborate and talk about, you know, what, what everyone's seeing. Um, so with that, what are you hearing from your members? Is is just everyone you know, in the same boat where they're just, uh, everything's uncertain. [00:10:32] Rocky Butani: Um, what are you hearing from them and what are some of the concerns? [00:10:36] Jon Hornik: So the last call we had, we had a call last Wednesday, which was an emergency call to talk about the tariffs, the policy change, the markets, and, uh, a lot of people gave their insights. A lot of people just listened. Uh, the NPLA, uh, really cut its teeth on providing comfort and guidance during difficult times. [00:10:57] Jon Hornik: Really, during covid, it really exploded these biweekly calls because. What was happening was people are all calling each other going, what are you hearing? What are you hearing? And it, it just didn't make sense not to get everybody on a call. And there's a comforting feeling to know that everybody's in the same boat. [00:11:12] Jon Hornik: And then what's nice about the NPLA is people are collaborating. Even though they're competitors, they're talking about decisions they're making. Um, from a market standpoint on what's being discussed, it's pretty much what I said. Uh, there's a lot of uncertainty. Get used to living in a world with uncertainty. [00:11:31] Jon Hornik: Uh, you know, our president, whether you love him or hate him, is a bombastic person who just, you know, throws bombs out there and not literal, I hope, but, but figuratively. And he likes it. Uh, you know, uh, he, at any given time, there could be a tweet that disrupts the markets and the equity falls and, and the thing is what you're saying, we don't know the long-term effect of this yet. [00:11:55] Jon Hornik: I mean. Maybe, maybe these threatened tariffs bring our allies closer to parody with us from a trade perspective, maybe, I don't know. Um, maybe they don't, maybe they turn us into an enemy and push on them towards our, our China and, and that hurts us in the long run. So I think everybody's. Operating with, uh, a an acute sense of nervousness, and they're not sure how this is gonna turn out. [00:12:27] Jon Hornik: Um, there are some people I've, I've discussed that are, are contemplating layoffs, uh, because they believe that this year is gonna be a, a slower year. Uh, and it, it's turning out to look like that's gonna be from an origination standpoint. But, um. Uh, you know, our space has turned to be, uh, resilient, elastic, robust during downtimes, and if we keep the fundamentals of what we're thinking about low housing supply in this country, demand for housing and conventional lenders not lending. [00:13:01] Jon Hornik: There's always going to be transactions for private lenders. [00:13:06] Rocky Butani: Absolutely. But, uh, I guess a lot of lenders have gotten used to the, the high volume or they've hired people to accommodate the high volume that they've been getting. And then if that slows down, obviously they have to, they have to make changes within their organization. [00:13:20] Rocky Butani: Um, but do you think it's, it, it's that the cost of capital's going up and that's going to slow down? Lending always [00:13:27] Jon Hornik: does a, any time, any time, transactional, anytime the interest rate goes up, borrowing course transactions go down. We do very good in a high transaction environment. The, you know, and, and the part of the problem, Rocky, is for so long, a lot of, we have a young space, so to speak, they grew up with interest rates close to zero, right? [00:13:49] Jon Hornik: This is not normal. You know, the interest rates aren't actually terrible today. They're not terrible. They're just not zero. And everybody thought how, you know, how smart they were? Oh my God, this is an easy business. Of course, when money is free, I. At 0% interest or very, very small interest rate. You're really smart, right? [00:14:10] Jon Hornik: No, no. You could cut deals left and right. It's just the problem is when things get more challenging is when the cost of money goes up. It's uncertain. Um, those people who built high volume shops need high volume to keep their payroll. They will be the first to go around some layoffs. And we're hearing some of it. [00:14:29] Jon Hornik: We're hearing strategic decisions being made, what some people are paring down. Um, very good friend of mine, very successful business guy said It's easy to get big. It's hard to get small. Very hard to get small. Those. That's when it's our easy to hire everybody and, and pay them, and everything's good, you know, kumbaya. [00:14:48] Jon Hornik: But when, when things get tough, the smart people pair 'em down, survive, protect the core, and then live another day to rise again. [00:14:59] Rocky Butani: And are you have, uh, hearing from your lenders that, uh, or your members, I should say that, uh, uh, any concerns about the cost of building and rehabbing from, from the, the, the end borrowers where, where their costs are gonna go up? [00:15:13] Jon Hornik: The average cost, the estimation that I saw from Jon Burns was a 12% increase in construction costs based on the current contemplated tariffs, uh, across the, across the, the world. And, um, my guess is it'll probably be a little higher than that. So 15% that's, and they, and will that translate into a higher purchase price for a house? [00:15:37] Jon Hornik: It has to 'cause somebody has to eat that. Um, the, the, the problem with the, the president's move on tariffs is that he's trying to fix a problem that's not tariff driven, uh, driven the, the, the trade and balances between countries. Come from the fact that one country can produce the product cheaper than another country. [00:16:01] Jon Hornik: Okay? Our country, and the reason why they keep produce it cheaper is they don't have, uh, they don't have unions, they don't have health insurance requirements, they don't have child labor laws. They could pay their workers virtually no money to produce a product. A tariff does not fix that problem. All a tariff can do is bring someone to the table and us tell them, in order to trade with us, you need to pay this person a minimum wage. [00:16:28] Jon Hornik: You need to put health insurance in place like we have, you need this, and that's not gonna happen. So it was a, it was a, uh, I get why the president's doing it. The problem is that the remedy does not fix the problem. And, um. A lot of people we could talk about, I, I'm gonna say this, the approach was wrong. [00:16:49] Jon Hornik: Sometimes I'm an elected official. You know this, I'm only a mayor in New Jersey. But sometimes policy changes need touch. You do it with touch, you do it with empathy, you do it with sympathy. You, there's a soft touch. The, the president only knows a sledgehammer and you know, he sledged hammered the rest of the world, friends and foes alike. [00:17:11] Jon Hornik: And this is. This is the result. And I believe it was a mistake. And I believe his actions show he now believes it was a mistake by the fact that, you know, you're getting announcements, oh, first of all, the 90 day extension on everybody but China, right? The, you know, why we work this out. And then, uh, I saw last Friday telephone, uh, cell phones and electronics are excluded from the tariff. [00:17:37] Jon Hornik: And then we're re-looking at the auto taxes as well, you know, so. It's the slow back off. But that doesn't stop the fact we're at a trade war with China right now. They keep upping it and this is what's dictating decisions today. Investing decisions. These are, these are prop. He un, he opened up a can of worms, which should not have been opened at this time. [00:18:00] Jon Hornik: Hmm. [00:18:01] Rocky Butani: Hopefully he keeps backing off so we don't suffer as he never backs [00:18:04] Jon Hornik: off the way he hits with the, he should back off with the sledgehammer that he used to put into place. 'cause maybe that would help. But did this slow drip back off after taking the sledgehammer is not I. It's not helpful to, to giving investors comfort in the US. [00:18:19] Jon Hornik: Market. [00:18:21] Rocky Butani: Support for the show comes from Ross Diversified Insurance Services. All real estate investors and all private mortgage lenders need insurance. More specifically, they need the right insurance partner. For over 35 years, ROS Diversified has been the trusted partner for over 3000 property investors and. [00:18:37] Rocky Butani: 500 lenders throughout the United States. If you are a real estate investor, ROS Deverse fight can help you. Whether you're managing a single rental property or a large portfolio of rentals, and if you're a lender, ROS Deverse Fight can protect you with forced place insurance for when a borrower's policy lapses or with REO insurance. [00:18:55] Rocky Butani: In the case of foreclosure, they offer competitive rates and hassle-free claims assistance licensed in all 50 states. Ross Diversified understands the unique challenges of real estate investing. And provides customized solutions to safeguard your assets. Visit their website, ross diviv.com to learn more and request a quote. [00:19:15] Rocky Butani: That's R-O-S-S-D-I v.com. Please mention that you heard about them from Lender Link and the Private Lending Insights podcast. Uh, let's go back to the, uh, to the NPLA, uh, meetings. Um, you know, you hold, you host those every, every two weeks and then. Like you said last week, there was an emergency meeting. Um, you know, during times of crisis, you can always, uh, set those up. [00:19:39] Rocky Butani: Um, and what I love about the meetings is you have, you have some unique people in the industry that, that get to speak. You know, you've got yourself, you know, who's one of the, the largest closing, uh, law firms in, in the country. So you see all the transaction volumes and, and. Deal with some of the largest lenders in the space. [00:19:56] Rocky Butani: You get some of the largest lenders in the space, you know, some of the securitization players that all get on there and share their insights. Um, do you typically get most of the membership joining these meetings? [00:20:08] Jon Hornik: Yeah, I think we, we, we got close to a hundred, um, uh, viewers. Last time who were active. And that's, that's probably across, you know, 90 plus members in the, in the, in the NPLA, which is amazing across the country. [00:20:22] Jon Hornik: And my, my favorite part, I mean, it's nice to have the panel discussions, which we like doing with, you know, the, the larger guys. But the best is when you get granular and you start talking to the regional guys. What are you seeing, what are you hearing? Because that's real information, live information you can't get anywhere else. [00:20:40] Jon Hornik: Everything else is usually done looking at analytics on closed loans, which are months in the past. This is the only eyes on present view of what's going on. And, you know, um, people are talking about it, they're concerned, you know, people are, uh, concerned about the slowdown. For sure. [00:20:59] Rocky Butani: And tell us about the, the format and the typical agenda for your meetings. [00:21:04] Jon Hornik: Typically our, our bimonthly calls, we have a presentation from somebody. We just had somebody on, uh, uh, from SFR Analytics and he discussed his product, and then we open up the questions and then we open up to the members to discuss anything they want. So, uh, we do, we're, we're doing a, uh, a broker. Uh, discussion in the upcoming weeks. [00:21:27] Jon Hornik: So we add really good topics that people concerned about. Fraud is big in our space. We do a fraud discussion about a half hour and then open it up to questions and get comments. And the whole idea is that we're coming together as a lending community to make each other better. Um, it's really the only format out there where. [00:21:48] Jon Hornik: PE competing members of the private lending space are sharing information at the same time, like they're everybody. You see it happening And it always, I, it always amazes me that they're willing to do it, but I think there's an acceptance that we're in this new industry now. It's a newish industry, and you know, we're only as good as our worst player. [00:22:13] Jon Hornik: It's really important for us to, to, to push out, you know, the right ethics, the right best practices, legislative updates, everything that's important because if the investors lose faith in a bad originator, I. It could damage the whole industry. So there's that sense of community that that's really propelled the NPLA into this, this leadership role in the country. [00:22:40] Jon Hornik: For, for, for these, these type of discussions and events. [00:22:45] Rocky Butani: Yes. And again, I think that's one of the best, uh, or one of the, the biggest benefits of, of being an NPLA member is, is, you know, participating in these bimonthly meetings and, and, you know, anyone can ask questions and, uh, you just get, uh, insights from these meetings that you don't get anywhere else. [00:23:01] Rocky Butani: And it's consistent. It's, it's frequent, if you will. [00:23:05] Jon Hornik: Yeah, we, we, we debated it one time to go to once a month, but the membership does it. The membership likes seeing everybody. Know every two weeks. And the funny thing about it is they all do business together because, you know, a regional lender or, or somebody, somebody has a box and they can't do a deal. [00:23:22] Jon Hornik: They call their buddy at the NPLA and they say, Hey, could we do this together? And so that, that kind of collaboration is really helping the space and makes us, it makes us all better. [00:23:35] Rocky Butani: Nice. And, uh, let's go into some of the, the other benefits of being an NPLA member. Uh, for people who are not familiar with the association, if you could just tell us, you know, sure. [00:23:45] Rocky Butani: What are some of the, the, the benefits [00:23:47] Jon Hornik: of being? So we talked about the biweekly calls. We, uh, we are constantly, uh, covering legislative issues representing. Um, regions, originators in state, in state situations. Uh, for instance, Florida's been talking about passing, uh, a recent law, shocking that's gonna damage private lenders and we're involved with that. [00:24:07] Jon Hornik: It, it has to do with, uh, more disclosure necessary for a foreclosure. And, uh, so we're monitoring that, licensing issues. Uh, a lot of, uh, you know, bad decisions coming outta courts. We're putting in briefs on it. So we're representing individuals and the space in order to get a better result to protect the lenders. [00:24:29] Jon Hornik: Uh, we have our annual meetings at our conference that we have. Uh, we have the meetings two times a year, so that's great. Once in March. One in Scottsdale, uh, Arizona This year we don't have one at our, uh, at our, uh, AC event. And I'll go through the dates with you on those in a moment. But, uh, everything in between, it's the collaboration, it's the in-person meetings, it's the, uh, putting out relevant. [00:24:59] Jon Hornik: Information to make your firm company service provider better. Um, just last week we had Jon Beam and Eli Novi educate the space on what to be aware of in warehouse lines, what could put you out of business. And just a summary of that talk. They were concerned about Mark to market, which can wipe out a firm completely, and the fact that a lot of these credit lines don't renew. [00:25:28] Jon Hornik: They, they, they, they expire every year and their advice was, you're better off paying for a committed line, which doesn't have mark to market, which they can't pull during these tough times than the cheaper line, which you'll make more money on, which is, which is, uh, more suspect of being shut down during these, these uncertain times. [00:25:50] Jon Hornik: So, I mean, this is advice from people who are further down the path. Than, than a lot of companies and they're sharing their wisdom. The other thing is we have a robust mentor program. The NPLA so you could sign up and get mentored, both from a firm perspective, and it really turns into career advice too. [00:26:10] Jon Hornik: You know, somebody's getting mentored and going, oh, what do I do? And, and 'cause you need that guidance from people who are further down the road. So all of that is put together into one nice, clean package, and it's a very close knit group. So I encourage everybody to join the NPLA. Um, it's not like a a signup organization. [00:26:29] Jon Hornik: You gotta get sponsored. By somebody, you gotta get admitted because we didn't want people just shining up who didn't contribute to the community. Right. You know, I, I, I, I paid my fee and I got the, the, the, you know, the NPLA emblem and I use it on my emails. Now I'm a mem. I don't want that no interest. We want people who sign up, who feel they need to contribute and wanna be in a leadership position. [00:26:58] Jon Hornik: 'cause that's the only way we keep improving. [00:27:01] Rocky Butani: And, uh, how many members do you have at this time? [00:27:03] Jon Hornik: 130. [00:27:05] Rocky Butani: Okay. And I, I saw on the website, uh, the current pricing. So you have, um, you have a, a corporate, uh, membership fee, which includes three people. Uh, and then you have an individual, um, as far as the price point. [00:27:19] Rocky Butani: You know, some people may look at it and say, okay, well. It, it's $5,000 a year for an individual, or let's say around 8,000 for, uh, a company membership with three people. Um, what are, what are some of the, what are some of the, the pushback you might get on, uh, on the pricing and how would you address that? [00:27:38] Rocky Butani: So, [00:27:39] Jon Hornik: listen, I, I think once you participate in a few, there's no one who, very rarely do you have somebody who doesn't stay with it. Like they're either going outta business or they have a health issue. That's usually what happens. So I think it's one of those things that, uh, take a gander, like if you want, I'll let you join a call for free. [00:27:58] Jon Hornik: Just, just reach out to me. I'll put you in touch with Amy Kane, who runs the MPLA, uh, with me. Uh, once you see the value it adds and that there's nothing like it in the space. You'll see the value and it'll add the money is, it's not big money. The NPLA is not a huge money maker. It's, it functionally operates at a not-for-profit because we give back at all our events. [00:28:22] Jon Hornik: I. When we have a conference, for example, we have a golf tournament. The NPLA members come for free. We have dinners, we have cocktail parties. We have stuff that we reinvest in for the membership in order to promote the networking aspect and build the community that we want to build. I don't think it's for, for the value, the NPLA ads. [00:28:43] Jon Hornik: I don't, I think it's the best value around, I don't think, I don't think it's a, it's a money issue. Um, I guess it would be for those who don't understand and appreciate the value, but a lot of those people are like living in their, you know, their silo. They're doing what they do and they don't consider the broader group or the consequences of the broader country operating and that, and that's what we're trying to bring insight into. [00:29:09] Rocky Butani: And I've tried to have this conversation with, with lenders and, and even service providers that it's, it, it's such a. Such a valuable way to get, um, you know, updated information and, and, and get these close connections to, to peers or competitors or, you know, even service providers. It's just, uh, it's just a great way to, to access a lot of the largest lenders in the space and, and even some smaller ones as well, because you get that interaction with, with the members so frequently. [00:29:37] Jon Hornik: And listen, it's everybody needs. We're a village here. Everybody needs help there. There are times smaller firms can't fund deals, but they're good deals. They should reach out to other members and figure out, Hey, I'm gonna give you a referral on this, you know, or I'm gonna help you get this deal. And that always, whether you get a compensation for that or not, I've always done very well helping people out with just good karma. [00:30:02] Jon Hornik: And it's always come back to help me. And if it didn't, then that's okay. That person needed more help than they were willing to give, and that's okay too. So you, you just find your way, you, you, I, I believe in a lot of positivity in putting good, good vibes out there. [00:30:15] Rocky Butani: Agreed. Uh, okay. Let's talk about the conferences. [00:30:18] Rocky Butani: Um, so you host three conferences per year, uh, in various locations. Uh, tell us about the schedule for this year and, and tell us about the, the Miami Conference, which just wrapped up, uh, last month. [00:30:30] Jon Hornik: We did a a, a March Miami conference. It was the biggest conference in the company's history. Uh, we had over 700 attendees. [00:30:40] Jon Hornik: Uh, it was, uh, sold outta sponsorships and the, and it was amazing energy. So that's at the lows. Uh, we then turn around and go to the Hard Rock in Atlantic City, and that's gonna be our broker focus conference. We believe that, uh, brokers are being underserved in the space. They don't have a home. Uh, since we have all the lenders showing up, we're a natural fit for them. [00:31:07] Jon Hornik: So we're making this June conference and possibly all of them are the NPLA Broker Focus Conference. So we're inviting all the brokers from the Northeast and across the country to come down and meet the lenders to do deals. And we believe this is, uh, for Atlantic City, which is uniquely. Situated in the northeast. [00:31:27] Jon Hornik: A great way to get attendees and spread our word. So that's coming up in June 23rd and 24th at the Hard Rock Hotel and Casino in Atlantic City. And there's nothing better than the Jersey Shore and uh, a summer event. So check that out. And then this year. We've moved from Austin, Texas to Scottsdale, Arizona at the Fairmont Princess Resort, September 28th to 30th, which will be another big event there for us. [00:31:56] Jon Hornik: That's our West Coast South event where people come. So we do three events a year, always in Miami, always in Atlantic City, and it had always been in Austin, Texas, but we've pivoted to Scottsdale, Arizona to try that venue. Um. I believe in putting a flag down in a city and getting better with your execution year after year. [00:32:19] Jon Hornik: Um, my predecessor who, uh, did the conference believed on going to different places each year, and I don't want that. I wanna, I want to know where we're going. I want to know how the execution's gonna be, and I want everybody to have some comfort that Okay. They know come March, they're gonna come to the NPLA conference in Miami, at the Lowe's and have a great conference. [00:32:43] Rocky Butani: I like it. And you know, one thing about the Northeast is, uh, is no one else in our industry or, or just in, you know, in, in the real estate, residential real estate or real residential lending space, uh, there's, there's no event or conference in the Northeast. And, and you know, a lot of people think, oh, Atlantic City, well, the, the great thing about Atlantic City is you've got the big venues, so the Hard Rock, you know, I, I attended that conference two years ago and. [00:33:09] Rocky Butani: Uh, and it's an amazing venue. It, it can accommodate a lot of people. It has the, the dining and entertainment all in one, in one place. And, and more importantly, it's, it's, it's very strategically located within the broader northeast where, you know, anyone in the DC metro area all the way down to Virginia, they can drive there in, in a short amount of time. [00:33:29] Rocky Butani: People from New York can drive down there from Philly. It's just a one hour drive. So, so I like that location. [00:33:36] Jon Hornik: All your points are free. The, the, uh, hard rock is a huge venue. You literally check in and never have to leave the casino. All meals like, like everything for as many days you're there. The other thing is, I grew up in New Jersey and Atlantic City was always, Hey, you want to go? [00:33:53] Jon Hornik: Let's drive down. It's an hour and a half away. And, and that's the way New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey sees it. It's real, it's not a pack the plane trip go and a, so it lowers the cost for a lot of the attendees, which is, which is why we like it. Um, the, I bring the entire private window law firm down there for two nights because I believe that in order to, uh. [00:34:20] Jon Hornik: To be really good at transactional and we do foreclosure work. You need to understand the space and your clients. So there's total interaction going on. The entire firm comes, which is great. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's, I like the event. I look forward to it. So people, people thought, people are like, oh, Atlantic City, it's not Vegas. [00:34:39] Jon Hornik: I go, I don't wanna be in Vegas. Vegas, Vegas has too many distractions. There's too much going on outside of the business. You know, I go to a Vegas, uh, convention and, uh, conference and like the first day's great, but in the second day you don't see anybody. 'cause they're either hungover or they're, or they're gambling or they're doing something else that doesn't, it's not the same in Atlantic City. [00:35:02] Jon Hornik: They're the, the, the gambling. It's there, but it's not the. It's not the focus. [00:35:07] Rocky Butani: Yeah, I like it. And, uh, I, I do like that you're trying out, uh, Scottsdale this year because that's one of my favorite cities to visit and I haven't been there in a long time 'cause there haven't been any industry conferences there. [00:35:19] Rocky Butani: So, um, and, and I think that's also strategically, you know, a lot of people do have to fly there, but, but it's, it's sort of in between Texas and Southern California. So I, so I think you'd, you know, I think that'll do well and, and I'm excited for that one. [00:35:35] Jon Hornik: Um, I'm so, well, we've talked about going to California. [00:35:37] Jon Hornik: You know, I haven't, uh, to have, uh, move do an MPLA there. I just, I haven't gotten there yet. Uh. Uh, it's more likely than a Vegas event for us because, you know, like I, I am down on Vegas. I don't think people go to Vegas to do business. I think they go to Vegas to go to Vegas, which is fine. I don't judge anybody. [00:35:55] Jon Hornik: But one of the things I want to have happen is we have three pillars in the NPLA. You probably heard me say this. We have, uh, uh, networking, education and entertainment and, and networking. People have to be in the same room working together. They have to be talking and helping each other out. Education, you'll get there. [00:36:14] Jon Hornik: I think we're the best in the space in that in terms of our panels, the questions, the interaction of the app is great. And then entertainment, it's for us to entertain you while you're there, so you keep coming back. Um, I think when you lose some of the, each of those things other than the entertainment, the networking, the education you lose when you go to a venue like Vegas, I. [00:36:37] Rocky Butani: Vegas also has, you know, the, the venues, they're, they're really kind of the, the con the conference convention Capital of America. So they're, I, from what I've heard, other, uh, event organizers, it, it, they just have so many options and, and it's just, you know, although even in our space, we don't have that many. [00:36:56] Rocky Butani: People attending conferences. We're not getting thousands of people. Um, so it may not be necessary to, to always do it in Vegas. It's just, you know, it's just one, one of those places where they're, they're set up for it. They're their kind of mask goes at it. Listen, I [00:37:08] Jon Hornik: love going to visit. I just don't think the, the, the amount of bi, the real business getting done, I think people go to Vegas for a boondoggle. [00:37:16] Jon Hornik: They don't, you know, and I get it, it's an amazing city. There's only one Vegas in this country and it's, it's, it's good, but I just don't, I, I want. I wanna control the NPLA, uh, vibe and visit and achieve certain goals. And it's harder to do in Vegas, I believe, with our, with what our mandate is. [00:37:37] Rocky Butani: Sure. And there's plenty of other conferences in, in Vegas, so it's nice to have, uh, yeah. [00:37:41] Rocky Butani: Other, other places to visit, so I appreciate that. Uh, and then tell us about the, the format and the agenda of, uh, the NPLA conference. [00:37:51] Jon Hornik: So the, uh, it starts out, um. We, we start the networking early again, one of our milestones, our, our pillars that we want to hit. So, uh, you come in on, uh, it's a, it's a, uh, two or three day event. [00:38:07] Jon Hornik: Depending on which city it's in, Atlantic City's gonna be a 2 8 2 day event. The first day, uh, setup starts, uh, around one o'clock for the, the sponsors from one to three or two to four, and then we open the conference doors for a pre networking situation. And that's always a ton of people show up the day before to do. [00:38:31] Jon Hornik: It's like, it's kind of like a presale. Did you ever go to a presale before they, the sale opens and everybody comes in. People like coming in early and just talking and getting business done. So many people have told me that, you know, the, the, the pre networking that we put, we do, they get all their deals done and they're thrilled, and then they could relax the next day and go to the education. [00:38:53] Jon Hornik: Great. So you go two to four. We do a kickoff, uh, opening party cocktail party. Everybody has a great time. More networking. Close it down for the night, next day start first thing in the morning with a breakfast, go right to a capital markets panel to give a macro update on what's going on. And again, this day and age with what's going on with the uncertainty like we spoke about earlier. [00:39:17] Jon Hornik: You need that kind of education. And then we shut down the, uh, the general session. Allow it to open up just for networking in the sponsor hall for a good, for a good another two hours at that point, and people are walking around and getting deals and feeling good, we open it back up for a few more sessions, have lunch open, close it again, the sponsor hall, open it back up, run through the afternoon. [00:39:46] Jon Hornik: Then we do another networking session by closing the general session down four to six. Then we do a, a, a a dinner or closing party. So there's so much, you're spending so much time with people that you're just, you wanna do business with people you know, and you like, and this gives you every opportunity to do that. [00:40:05] Rocky Butani: Love it. Uh, I'm looking forward to, to the next one. And, uh, I've, I've been to a bunch of NPLE. Conferences in the past and, uh, um, they're amazing and they're very well put together, very professionally done so, so keep up the good work. [00:40:19] Jon Hornik: Thank you. [00:40:19] Rocky Butani: Appreciate it so much. Yeah, sure. And, uh, before we wrap up, um, you know, for people who don't know you, I'll, um, you know, you, you operate private lender law, uh, which is a law firm, um, you know, serving the private lending industry. [00:40:32] Rocky Butani: Uh, just tell us a little bit about the services that you provide and, uh, provide any updates if, if there are any. [00:40:38] Jon Hornik: Sure. Private, private lender law is the largest, uh, law firm representing private lenders in the country right now. We, uh, we do a thousand loan closings a month, uh, in every jurisdiction. [00:40:48] Jon Hornik: We've just, uh, recently launched last year our doc lab, doc generation interactive program, which is taking the industry by storm. It does things that no other system out there does, which is amazing. Uh, it not only generates docs, but it allows. Quicker, uh, amendments to docs as deals change. 'cause we all know they change overnight. [00:41:09] Jon Hornik: It allows you to use your templates on this system. Uh, it gives you a lot of optionality and, uh, you need that in the space. We do foreclosure loss mitigation in every state representing business purpose lenders. We represent investors with NPLA work, uh, forward flow agreements, credit line agreements, both, uh, institutional and non-institutional investors come to us for counseling and we do regulatory nationwide. [00:41:35] Jon Hornik: If you, if you're starting out in the space and you wanna go to a new state, you could come to us and that's a turnkey advice quickly. Affordable. Uh, but or if you're experienced and you wanna up your game in terms of execution because you're feeling pressure that, uh, execution is becoming more and more important, we can help you there too. [00:41:53] Jon Hornik: So we live in the space. We are lawyers. We don't, we don't claim to be anything else. We don't sell software, we don't do other stuff. That's what we, we like being lawyers and our, our motto is always here, always on. So if you email or call, you will get a return email or call within 20 minutes. That's what we guarantee. [00:42:15] Rocky Butani: Love it. Cool. Thank you very much for that. Um, so, uh, that's all I had on the list for today. Uh, maybe we could, uh, have you back, uh, in the next 60 days, or. Or so to, to share more insights or updates on what's happening during these crazy times. [00:42:29] Jon Hornik: I, I absolutely. I'm so happy to be on Rocket. Let me, let me go. [00:42:32] Jon Hornik: Uh, and just say something to everybody watching. You are one of the nicest, kindest people in the space. And, uh, uh, we, we, we, we always, we often talk about it. Uh, some, some people aren't as nice, but you happen to be, you're classy, you're nice. And, uh, we appreciate your support and it's, it's really good to reconnect [00:42:50] Rocky Butani: you too kind. [00:42:51] Rocky Butani: Thank you for the, for the kind words. I wasn't expecting that, [00:42:54] Jon Hornik: but it's true. And wear it. Wrap. Wear it proudly. [00:42:57] Rocky Butani: Thank you. Really appreciate that. [00:42:59] Jon Hornik: Alright. I hope. Cool. All right. I hope to see you soon. [00:43:01] Rocky Butani: And that's a wrap for my interview with Jon Jon. I hope to have him back on the podcast to share more insights. [00:43:06] Rocky Butani: It's good to have individuals like him who have, uh, such knowledge and insights into what's happening our industry. So I'll try to get him back. I do want to address my NPLA membership status. I am not currently a member of the NPLA. I was a member for a couple years. I canceled my membership in early 2024, and that was due to the fees. [00:43:31] Rocky Butani: I, it was really a cost cutting effort that I made in early 2024. Uh, and that's the reason I ended my membership. Uh, but I, it's not completely ended. It's not like I'm gonna not become a member in the future. It was just to, uh, save on some expenses and. Um, you know, for a business like mine, yes, it's great to be in front of lenders all the time. [00:43:52] Rocky Butani: Um, but it was just a financial decision. Um, and, and nothing more. I've also not attended, uh, the last few conferences. Uh, the last one I attended was, I believe Atlantic City. Um, so I missed a Miami conference. I am gonna attend the. Scottsdale conference in September and looking forward to that. Um, so as far as becoming a member of the NPLA, I do recommend it if you are, uh, a lender and, and if you are a service provider as well. [00:44:21] Rocky Butani: And if, uh, if you can get past the expense of it, I think you'd find a lot of value in being an NPLA member. If you wanna learn more about the National Private Lenders Association, visit npla online.com. When you reach out, please mention Lender Link and Private Lending Insights. Thank you for tuning in and listening all the way to the end.