Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / The Evolution Of Expression: Exploring the Creative Process with Triumph's Rik Emmett [Episode 262]

Transcript

The Evolution Of Expression: Exploring the Creative Process with Triumph's Rik Emmett [Episode 262] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: We're totally boomed rock and roll. I mean gotta leave you.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: You're reading little hands this, It's time to rock and roll.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Roll up Totally Booked.
• 0:15
  Speaker 3: Welcome to Booked on Rock, the podcast for those about
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: to read and rock. We are online at bookdown rock
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: dot com. Every episode in both audio and video. There
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: the latest rockbook releases, and you could check out the
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: all new Booked on Rock store. We got a hat,
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: t shirts, told bags, sweaters, hoodies and more. All that
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: at bookdown rock dot com. Rick Emmett of Triumph fame
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: returns to the podcast. The singer, songwriter guitarist behind the
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: hit Triumph songs Hold On, Laid on the Line, Fight
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: the Good, Fight, Magic Power, Somebody's out there. He's about
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: to release his second book, ten Telecaster Tales, liner Notes
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: for a Guitar and It's Music, the follow up to
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: his memoir Laid on the Line. Ten Telecaster Tales remakes
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: the idea of the concept album It's Music that are
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: Ry inside a book. It's also arguably the most comprehensive
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: attempt at liner notes in the history of electric instrumental
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: fingerstyle guitar albums. Em It delves into the creative process
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: the roots, influences, philosophy, and spirituality involved in writing and recording.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: It breaks down the ten tracks included on his new
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: album titled ten Telecaster Tales, which you can access through
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: this episode. Show Notes will also play clips of the
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: songs in this episode. Rick was nice enough to give
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: us permission to go ahead and play those clips throughout
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: the episode. Here is Rick Emmett. Welcome back, Rick, thanks
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: rich head you on for your first book. Really enjoyed it,
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: so it is super cool to have you back on
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: and this time to talk about this book right here.
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: The promo for the book states that ten Telecaster Tales
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: remakes the idea of the concept album. It's music that
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: arrives inside a book. So tell the listeners and the
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: viewers what they can find inside this brand new book.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: Eventually, the subtitle kind of tells the story liner notes,
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: but it's the most comprehensive, you know, a bunch of
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: liner notes, because it ended up being two hundred pages.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Long, you know.
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: But it was a kind of a bucket list thing
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: for me that I wanted to have something that would
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: be like a hardcover thing with a CD in the
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: back and a book written about an album. An album
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: written about a guitar. It was just this kind of
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: and it grew organically. But I think the planets were
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: aligned because my editor at ECW Press is Michael Holmes, and.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: He's a guitar player.
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: So you know, when you pitch an idea to an
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: editor and go, hey, you know, what do you think
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: about this a book about guitar, he goes, yes, awesome, great, fantastic,
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: We're in you know. But I leverage these things too,
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: because I've got a poetry book that will now come
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: out in the fall in October, maybe called Leaning into It.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: And when I go to ECW, what I say.
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: Now, I know you're never going to make any money
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: printing a poetry book, but I really do want to
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: put one out. So if I give you a book
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: about music, will you know, will you give me a.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Two book deal? And they go, yeah, sure, I will
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: do that.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: So you know, I always have, you know, motives that
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: sort of go beyond the But you know, when you're
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: an artist, I think you sort of tend to think
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: that way.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: You know, you tend to sort of go what else?
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: You know? How else? You know? I keep playing the
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: what if game in my head?
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Is this writing thing. Is this something you plan on
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: doing long term? Seemed to be having fun with it?
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: Yes, you know, i'd like to. I'd certainly like, well,
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: let me say this. I always want to be creative
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: no matter what. And I retired from the road. But
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: lo and behold, now that this book's out and it's
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: kind of seems to be doing all right out.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Of the box.
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: I booked a couple of gigs and I'm going to
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: go play locally, so I'm going to test myself again
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: to see how that how that goes. I'm not going
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: to go back out on the road again, but that
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: was a pretty large.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Chunk of my life.
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: The idea of performance gives you a sense of instant
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: kind of gratification. You know, you're fulfilled in the moment.
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: The artistic process gives me that too. So when I write,
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: it's it's arduous. It's not an easy thing to write books.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: But I really, I really do enjoy the process, you know,
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: And I don't want to become the tortured writer who's
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: drinking too much and you know, all of those guys
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: of cliches and I am here in my garret, but
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: it's a pretty nice garrett, you know.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: It is nice.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: I see those guitars behind you. Yeah, it looks and
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: actually I see that window off to the right there,
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: which I believe that's the window you mentioned in your book.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: It's foe Fau.
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: It's really just a lighted panel, right, because there's no
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: window there.
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: There's not a window. Yeah, what a terrible way of
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: me in describing it.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: Well, it was originally a stain glass window in a
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: house that we lived in for like thirty eight years
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: that was between our kitchen area and our sort of
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: TV room. And then we renovated and then we moved
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: it literally to an outside window, and it was in
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: the in and outside window that we made. And then
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: we moved away from the house, and then we brought
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: it with us, and so it was really a place
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: where we went, this could be kind of cool as
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: a library. And you see this over the beam here
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: that used to be the room that used to be
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: my studio in my library. And then we made steps
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: up and made this giant, you know, space because my
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: wife wanted we call it a Muskoka room here in Canada,
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: like a big, large kind of family room, TV room
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: kind of thing that looked out on the pool in
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: the backyard, and we had a designer, a decorator, and
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: she was standing in that room with me looking out
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: the back windows. She said, well, if we do this
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: extension off the back of that, was she going to
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: be looking out at a roof? And I went yeah,
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: And she said, well, that'll be ugly. Why don't you
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: just go to you know, once you've dug the foundation,
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: you might as well go up to stories. You can
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: have that studio you've always been dreaming about where you'd
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: have windows all around.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: And I went, okay, lady, I'm in.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: And it proved to be beneficial from a creative standpoint. Well,
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: we'll get to that. That's really cool. The opening chapter
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: titled The Real Magic of Layers, So talk about the
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: many layers of making music and how circumstances and environments
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: and the passage of time generate extra layers of supernatural
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: mystique to a song.
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and I'm not the kind of guy that believes
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: in the supernatural, but I must admit that a lifetime
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: of creative process has made me realize that this layering
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: thing makes stuff come into existence that you didn't foresee,
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: you didn't intend, and yet there it is, you know,
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: somebody twenty years after me writing a song says, hey,
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: you know what I got out of your tune this?
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: And you go that.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: I never contemplated that, but I can see that it's there.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, this thing of.
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: Layers is it's a really interesting thing. And of course
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: in my book I quote the guy from Wilco, Jeff Tweety,
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: because and he talks about that very succinct, very articulate.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: He kind of nails it.
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: So I quote him because he talks about this fact
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: that we all walk around music occupies a space in
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: our heads, and everybody space is their own. You know,
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: that's one of the beautiful things about music, and yet
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: we share it and you go, that's yeah, that's an
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: incredible thing. And I think that is another thing that
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: gives birth to this idea of layers, that there's going
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: to be stuff in there that's kind of metaphysical.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: And the book proves that there are even more stories
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: that come within a story. In fact, the story is
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: in this book all again with one story which began
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: very practically design a guitar tell Us about your one
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: of a kind telecaster style guitar, affectionately known as BABS
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: and for those who are just listening. He's showing it
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: to us.
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: It's a beauty.
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it looks like a telecaster, but it's got
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: gibs and kinds of stuff because it's a Gibson scale length.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: And I'm bucking pickups and the bridge right.
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: I like when I can get my hand inside the strings,
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: you know, Like I like this.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Digging in right hand.
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: Like I'm a left handed guy, so my strong hands
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: on the board, which gives me a lot of advantages,
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: but my right hand I tend to instead of being
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: a guy that picks like this, I tend to turn
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: my hand sideways a bit. And so I I wanted
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: the bridge up. This has been chambered so it's light
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: as a feather. It's it's like less than seven pounds
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: even with the hardware on it. Ergonomically, I love Telli's.
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: I love the west of a telly, like this distance
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: from the top to the bottom.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: When I put it on my.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: Leg, it just sits so that the strings are in
• 9:07
  Speaker 4: exactly the right place. So there were certain things that
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: Leo Fender got right, you know. As the forties turned
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: into the fifties and they decided to.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Call this design a telecaster. You know, the whole idea
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: of a headstock. I'm trying to get this to.
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: There you go, where the strings are all in the
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: line and the strings poll straight through the nuts of
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: the guitar.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Like all of that stuff just speaks to me.
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: And of course, the first good guitar that I ever
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: owned was a telecaster. When I got my Union card
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: and you know, started gigging as a professional musician, I
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: had a Teleian a little Fender amp, and the guitar
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: itself has an integrity.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: A telecaster speaks.
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: Honestly, There's dozens and dozens of guitar players that'll.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Go to a Telly because it's the thing that works.
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: And we're talking everybody from Bruce Springsteen and Keith Richards
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: right through to jazz, you know.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: So it definitely is a guitar that works for me.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Having said all that, you know, I have the disease
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: and I'll keep searching for the holy grail.
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, count how many guitars are behind Rick? How can
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: we how many.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: In the space?
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: Now? I got about forty five, forty six. You know,
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: there's limits of the disease for me. Now, you know,
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: if I was gonna be chasing other stuff, then I would,
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: you know, I give guitars away for charity things, or
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: you know, all of my kids have little shrines in
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: their house for their dad with a guitar hanging there
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: and a gold record or something.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: So there's a company in Canada called Go Dan and
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: they're making a model of this that will be available
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: for folks to buy. I haven't felt seen the prototype,
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: held it in my hands yet, but that's a that's going.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: To be an interesting thing.
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: I thought it was going to maybe be a chapter
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: in the book, but God in it didn't quite get
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: the stuff together in time. So I went, okay, well,
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: you know, if it ever gets to a second printing,
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: we could add another chapter back here. But I think
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: the reality of that is eventually going to occur, and
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: that would be a cool thing.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: What's the story behind the name Babs?
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, so this is a standard.
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: When Kelly's first came out, this was they were butterscotch
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: finished with a black guard, and so traditionally there's an
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: awful lot of guys that play guitars that look like this,
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: because it's really the one that was And when I
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: first started listening to guitar players and getting into them.
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: Roy Buchanan was a Blackguard Butterscotch player, and he was
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: kind of one of the first guitar players where he went, Okay,
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: there's something esthetically going on here, where there's a marriage
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: between the guys playing the guitar or the sound the tone.
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: Just it was one of those things where you kind
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: of get bitten by the bug. So you know, when
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: when I was talking about designing this, it was like, Okay,
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: well that's got to be the way we go.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: And in the initial things, I was calling.
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: The guitar butter because of butterscotch, and then I started
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: pronouncing it like the way Mike Myers would on Saturday
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: Night Life. He would do an impression of his mother
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: in law and the character was called Linda Richmond, and
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: she would wag in the glasses to be going, and
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: she loved Barbara streisand and she would be saying, ah,
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: she her voice is like bada. Her voices like baa baa,
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: And so instead of calling it butter, I was calling
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: it bada. And then I realized, wait a second, butta
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: Barbara streisand hey, her nickname is Babs, and it's it's Blackguarden,
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: butter Scotch.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: You get the acronym, and.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: I went, well, I gotta call it perfect.
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And there is a thing of guitar players, you know,
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: naming their guitars mostly after women, like the way we
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: you know, used to name.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Storms and ship you know.
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: And I realized that that's now an outdated concept. But
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: you know, unfortunately, I'm an old guy. I do things
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: in old fashioned way. So I named its usually with
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: female names.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Book on podcasts. We'll be back after.
• 13:16
  Speaker 5: This when when pistis absence makes the heart grow fonder.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: I didn't realize the telecaster at one time was it
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: was called the Broadcaster, and then because of television they
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: change it to Telecaster. You get into the history of
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: the Telecaster in the book, really interesting.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: Actually it was because Gretch Company had a brand name
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: that they'd already.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Registered, and I think it was on a set of drums.
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: I don't think it was on a guitar, but it
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: was a broadcaster and this and Gretch sort of told
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: Fender you can't use that name. And so there was
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: a period of Fenders history where they had the little
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: decals that go on the headstocks and it said Fender broadcaster,
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: and they snipped the broadcaster off and then for that
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: year they called them no casters' that's what they've become
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: known as because they didn't they don't have the word,
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: but telecaster became the one that they And it was
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: that era right where everybody was sort of into the
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: idea of split nick and sound waves, and you know.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: TV was starting to happen in a huge way, and nineteen.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: Fifty one is when they chose. So it was developed
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: in fifty changed the name in fifty one, kind of developed.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: I think they had working prototypes in forty nine and
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: then fifty and then fifty to fifty one was the
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: no caster stuff, I think, and then fifty two was
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: when it was a telecaster sticker on the headstock, and
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: that's when the real tradition.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Of them started, you know. And I got born in
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: fifty three.
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: So every now and then, going back to one of
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: your earlier questions, I will go online and I'll be
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: looking at how much fifty two and fifty three telecasters cost, and.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: Then I go maybe on my own, this is a
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: fascinating part of the book. One of the many in
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: your book you write, quote my guitar playing is also
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: informed by my identity as a singer. There's a wide
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: range of stylistic ways that singers end up playing their guitars.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: Talk about that, because I just saw a video Edward
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: van Halen who was at the US Festival, and he's
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: talking to Dave Hill, the guitarist Have Slayed, and he
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: was explaining why he does a lot of the finger work,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: and he said a lot of that came from the
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: fact that he played piano so much as a kid. Yes,
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: that's very interesting because I don't know if he ever
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: talked about that before. But and you were at that
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: US festival, by the way, in eighty three, But yeah,
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: talk about that. So your your guitar playing comes from singing.
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I mean I think we're influenced by music
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: in many, many different ways, right. And if you're a
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: musician and you've been around the block of time or two,
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: and I played violin for four years in high school,
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: and that influences me. I sang in choirs when I
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: was a kid, church choir, school choir, and in fact,
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: my voice was kind of my first instrument. So when
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: I picked up the guitar, the guitar and the voice,
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: that was a.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: They were integrated. There was.
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: It was the way I approached music, you know, I
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: started writing songs and that was a part of the integration. Now, Eddie,
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: you can hear that he's thinking about lots of notes.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: It's the style of playing because you know you've got
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: ten of them at your disposal on of keyboards. On
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: a guitar, that's so easy. You know you're picking. You
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: could pick three or four or five. You can finger
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: only about four or you know, five six if you
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: use a grand bar. But guitar is a little bit different.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: And the point that you raise about singing, there are
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: guitar players and Clapton is I think one of the
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: guys I use as an example in the book. He
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: very gluesy guy, thinks in bluesy kind of ways, but
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: his playing is very much.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: The way a singer would sing blues. And I think B. B.
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: King was also the same kind of a blues guitar player.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: The phrasing is very much the way a singer would
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: phrase things. And of course there's lots of guitar players,
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: and one that pops to mind is Mike Stern, the
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: guy that with Miles Davis and stuff. Stern is the
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: kind of guy that he studied a lot of sax
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: players because he really liked their phrasing. And the thing
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: about playing sax, of course, is that you've got to breathe.
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: So you're gonna play a long phrase, but then you're
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: gonna go but no, you gotta take breaths. And I've
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: always said to guitar players, you know, you should breathe
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: more like singers.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Have to breathe. Sax players have to breathe. Trumpet players
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: have to breathe, you know.
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: Sometimes to be more musical, the phrasing needs to come
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: from something else, because guitar players can just they can
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: be like guitar Weenie's.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: And just go forever.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: Hammering, and they're and they're doing pull ups and and
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: they're playing runs and they're playing scales, and you get
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: after a while you're going, this is like monkeys on typewriters,
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: Like there's just so many notes that it doesn't really
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: end up being musical for me. Now, you know, I
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: will greet it because there's people out there that are going, like, well, Rick,
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: I really like it when the heavy metal guys, you know,
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: playing never ending sentences and streams of consciousness. I go, okay, great,
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: you know, to each their own, you know, shock song gool.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: But I'm saying for me.
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: I like it when it sings, you know.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: I like choirs.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: I like phrasing that gives me a chance to kind
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: of think and breathe.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: So we're talking about.
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: Taste, but I'm led by the things that I was
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: exposed to.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: You also say the most guitars are cross dominant. Explain
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: what you mean by that.
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: Okay, So everybody knows about people that are ambidextrous.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: Right, you can do things with.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: Two hands, and that percentage of the population is minuscule.
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: But I am something that's called dextro sinistral. So I
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: do things of gross motor control with my left I
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: would hammer a nail with my left hand. I throw
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: a baseball with my left hand. My right hand I
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: use for fine motor control. I write with my right hand.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: I pick up a fork and eat with my right hand.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: So fine motor control, gross motor control. And when I
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: first picked up guitar, I was kind of like this.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: The strumming is a gross thing, and the fingering is
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: is fine. And I was like this, And then the
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: guy said, my teacher was a guy named Jack Arsenal,
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: and he was a left handed guy that i'd right handed,
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: and he took the guitar and he turned it around
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: in my hands and he went, you're gonna learn this
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: way and I went, oh, this feels weird, and he said, look,
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: just trust me your strong hands on the board. This
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: is going to become a huge advantage for you in
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: a very short period of time. And I think that's true.
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: And the list of guitar players that are dextro sinistral
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: people lefties that play right, Paul Simon, Richie Blackmore, Steve Morse,
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: the list is Waddie walk tell like from all different
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: styles of all different walks of life. And it's just
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: because you pick up the guitar and you kind of
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: like it, and then give it a couple of weeks
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: or a month, and that guitar is liking you back,
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: like this natural kind of thing is starting to occur.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: And it just makes it so that now though the
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: right handed guys are standing around going jeez, Rick, you
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: know that's amazing that you can do that. You know,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't make the guys in my.
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: Life it's sound like they were like dumb jocks because
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: they were.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: It was just a thing of you know, they were
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: envious so and and you know I.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: Basked in that that's a nice thing. And that's what
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: I mean about the guitar liking you back. Now you've
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: kind of got this thing that is setting you apart.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Was it Hendricks that played the played it upside down
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: because he was left handed?
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, he played it, you know, backwards and upside down.
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: And I was playing the band with the guy in
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: Chris Brockway and he was a lefty who played left
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: and he was a great musician. He was he was
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: gifted and he could play a guitar upside down backwards
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: no problem. But he would play his basses strung the
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: right way, you know, like heavy string on the low
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: string on the top, high string on the bottom. But
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: he could play them both ways. And it was like, okay,
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: that's like my brain can't handle that.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: So what about the three h's, head, hands, and heart,
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: how do they relate to the guitars in out principle?
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, the three h's the best music as a
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: player is going to have a combination of those things going.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: You know that there's an intellectual thing, there's an emotional component,
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: and then there's this physical technical.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Thing that you've got going on with the guitar.
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: So your hands are the things that are making the
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: connection happen, but the music is coming from your brain
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: intellectually and your emotions and your spirits and all of
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: that stuff.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: So it's a complicated thing.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: But you mentioned earlier that I talked about in the
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: book about layers. There's also this thing about triangles, Like
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of triangulation that occurs in artistic conceptualizing
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: because you got an idea, free floating, free form idea.
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: If you build a little triangle corral, you can capture
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: the idea.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: And so that's my theory. It's my work theory. I
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: tend to agulate things.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: Book on rock podcasts. We'll be back after this.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: Now might be a dandytown for that recess talk.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: Balance. There's a great quote in the book you include
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: from Leonard Bernstein. He said, quote, we live in a
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: world of up and down, back and forth, day and night.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: In order to exhale, we must inhale. There's no third
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: step in the process, no intermediate function. It is in
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: and out, in and out one two, one two. And
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: you reference this when talking about the importance of balance
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: in a song.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you.
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: Know, Leonard Burstein was talking about duality, you know, and
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: how it's this fundamental kind of thing that exists, and
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: when you start writing things, you do tend to kind
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: of go, Okay, here's the two bar phrase, and now
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: here's another two bar phrase, and now I have a
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: four bar phrase. And if I take two four bar phrases,
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: I have an eight bar phrase. That's kind of how
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: music builds itself, and that's in a very fundamental way.
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: Of course, there's going to be over things that will
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: over span all of that, but nevertheless, those are the
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: fundamental building blocks. So the idea of trying to seek
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: balance like the idea of a teeter totter, the idea
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: of how can I get this thing to have a
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: folkrum and have a range of motion. But it feels
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: natural and it feels like it works. Now, I'm quick
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: to add that, you know, when I would teach songwriting
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: at the college level, I would tell people you don't
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: want to have everything balanced all the time, because if
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: everything's balanced, it gets boring.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: You know, you do need to unbalance.
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: A structure sometimes in order to create a sense of
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: an impending something, or you want to accelerate the form,
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: you know, or you want to decelerate the form in
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: order to have people go, oh my god, I think
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: a chorus is coming, and then boom the chorus hooked
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: lands and you go. And if you didn't unbalance things,
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: it would you wouldn't have created that sense of momentum
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: and feeling. But generally speaking, music works. And you know,
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: I'm a songwriter, so and even though these are instrumental
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: guitar pieces in the ten Telecaster tales, they're songs. And
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: you know, you write a song and you kind of go, okay,
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: I have a verse. I guess I'll need a chorus,
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: and then you get a verse in a chorus and
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: you go, okay, I'm gonna need a second verse. It's
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: gonna be like the first verse. I'm probably gonna need
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: a third verse. And threes. We're talking about duality, but
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: three is a pretty standard kind of construction as well.
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: Songs kind of have three verses and then sometimes they
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: have a bridge, which is the vacation from all of
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: this balanced activity. You go, we need to break it down,
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: or we need to we need to take it away
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: and then bring back so that it'll have this satisfying return,
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: which is again sometimes I love when you see guys
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: that can juggle and they're you know, they they they're comedians.
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: They kind of talk and they're doing their act and
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: their their show biz and they you know, they can
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: juggle two things, and then they add a third, and
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: then they add a fourth, and then they add a fifth,
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: and it's all part and parcel of the you know,
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: this is what you're doing, and as a as an artist,
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: that's what you're doing too, you know. But he's still
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: only got two hands, you know, and eventually the show
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: itself is going to come to a nice balanced This
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: was my presentation.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much, you know.
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: And so that balancing act, that juggling act, is also
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: part of the duality based.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: On field though too. I would think, because you mentioned Clapton,
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: I always think about the song. It's in the way
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: that you use it. It starts with the main chorus.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: What goes into that decid to say let's start with
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: a chorus rather than let's build up to it.
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: Well, I think people that have been at songwriting and
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: record making and record production for a long time, then
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: they're seeking ways to try to make a song better,
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: more memorable, more powerful. And the thing that I talk
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: about a lot is being a song detective. That you
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: get to the point where you're you're trying to get
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: yourself out of the way. You're trying to get your
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: own ego out of the way so that you can
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: hear or detect what the song is trying to tell
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: you it wants to become. And sometimes you know, and
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you've read Rick Rubin's book, but
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: you know there's a producer that you know has everything
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: from the Chili Peppers to Johnny Cash. I mean, you know,
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: the guy has had a lot of success, and he's
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: a guy that's a real kind of zen song detective,
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: kind of guy who would be in a studio situation
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: and would say, hey, what if we tried starting with
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: the chorus. So he's not the only one, you know,
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: I think lots of guys arrived at that. They go,
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: let's try that, Let's see how it works. And when
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: you kick the tires in the studio, you're gonna do
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: a lot of tire kicking.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: That's that's why.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: You have studios so that you can sort of indulge
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: yourself in the luxury of well, let's try something different,
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: let's try it a different way and see how it works.
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: So I'm not really start with the chorus kind of guy.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: I'm maybe and I've written hundreds, maybe thousands songs in
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: my life, maybe more, and sometimes, you know, I have
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: tried it. But generally speaking, I kind of like the
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: idea of and I'm at school right, I was cutting
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: my teeth when there were rock and roll bears, which
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: into prog bands, and I kind of liked Sprague, you know,
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: And so I liked the idea of the more parts
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: you can you could get a song on FM radio
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: in the nineteen seventies and in the first part of
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: the ages where you could have like an intro in halftime,
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: a slow intro, oh, and then the groove would kick in,
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: and then another verse would come along that would be
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: an entirely different verse than the intro chunk was, And
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: then you get to the chorus, and then you have
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: a bridge, and then you have a breakdown with the
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: disco section, et cetera, et cetera.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: You know. I liked that, you know.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like a song like the Beatles' Help starts right
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: away with that and that comes during a time of
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: AM radio, and that was beneficial to come right in
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: with it. But I just found out that that was
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: a song that John Lennon wrote as a ballad. Yeah,
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: I think maybe it was George Martin. This is a
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: perfect segue to my next question. I think it maybe
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: it was George Martin. But having somebody to step in
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: and say, let's try this differently. How important is that?
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: Because you do write about engineering and production, and this
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: can be tricky because you say beauty's in the eye
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: of the beholder and in the ear of the listener.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: How important is that? And do you prefer self producing
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: or do you like having an outside producer.
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: I like both, and you know, a lot of times
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: it sort of depends on the process. When I write
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: something like ten Telecaster Tales, it's very personal, it's self
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: expression and I wouldn't be keen on collaborating during the
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: creative process. But when it comes to recording, I'm very
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: lazy and I don't like having to engineer my own stuff.
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: I am opinionated when it comes to producing, but I
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: also like collaborating.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Like I'll give you a little abduttal story.
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: The other night, I went to see a couple of
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: my pals, Peter Cardinally, he runs a label called Almah,
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: and an artist that he has signed to his label
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: is Done Bright Up and Don and I have done
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: some co writing together and they were in the studio
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: locally here, so I drove up one night and was
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: sitting there and listening to what they were doing and
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: working on this thing that they were sending to somebody
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: in Japan, I don't know whatever.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: So they're working on this tune and they.
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: Got a singer out on the floor and they're putting
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: a voice on a demo, so you know they're they're working,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: and they get towards the end of the tune and
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: they have a half chorus come back at the end
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: of the tune, and there's this kind of kick line
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: that goes like I don't.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Think about you or something like that, And of.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: Course it's one of those things where the singer she
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: doesn't really she's not really saying I don't think about you.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: No, I never crossed my mind, you don't cross my mind.
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: That was the line, you don't cross my mind, or
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: it never crossed my mind, something like that, But she's
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: protesting too much.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: The singer is actually saying.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: That because she's regretting and she's thinking about it all
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: the time.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: You know that missing you remember John.
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: Waite, Yeah, John Waite, Yeah.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: I'm not missing you. But of course what he's saying
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: is I'm missing you all the time. Right. So it
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: was one of those Guys.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: Of songs and she gets to the end and she's
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: singing the line you know it never crossed my mind,
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: you don't cross my mind, and I went, you know
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: instead of the and the line was sort of phrased
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: like you don't cross my mind, you don't cross my mind,
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: something like that, or you don't cross my mind, and
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: I went, you should slow it down, Like I can't
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: keep my mouth shut. I'm in the student it's not
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: my session. And I say to the guys, what if
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: at the end you slowed it down and you hung it,
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: you added two beats so that she could go, you
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: don't cross my mind, and it would be this really
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: kind of defeated.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: She's saying it, but she doesn't.
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: She means exactly the opposite, and it's heartbreaking that she
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: said to you know, spent the last three and a
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: half minutes trying to cope with the fact that she's
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: you know, broken and obsessed, and they went, oh, Ricky,
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: that's a great idea, you know thing, And I'm sitting
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: there thinking, oh, oh, I shouldn't have opened my stupid mouth.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: This is not my session, this is not myself, but
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: I couldn't help myself so collaborating to answer your question.
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: Sometimes it's an impulsive kind of thing.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: And I really do enjoy it.
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: I like being with other gifted creative people and kicking
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: the ball around, like you know, I played when I
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: did sports.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: When I was at jockey in high school.
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: I was good at track, but I didn't like the
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: stress and the anxiety of that as much as I
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: loved being in the relay and then being on the
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: football team that was even better, you know, Like I
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: love the idea of collaborating and making good things happen
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: on that basis, but art sometimes has to be about
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: you saying, like, if those guys had reacted to me
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: and said, Rick, keep your ideas to yourself, Fanks, but
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: no thanks, you know, like this is our thing, I
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: would and I would say.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Been there, understand that, you know totally forgive me.
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: I shouldn't open my mouth, but certainly for me, back
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: to your original question engineering production. Like, man, the more
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: help I can get, the better you know, I really
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: feel like, and we live in a digital universe now, right,
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah to that.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: As a fan, I always I've said this before. I
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: all of my favorite artists and bands, if they put
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: out something that is controversial, maybe that the fans don't
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: dig so much, like Metallica with the Lulu album and
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: Van Halen three and the fans O I don't like this.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: I still always say as a fan, I want my
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: favorite artists to do what they want to do creatively.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: It's what they wanted to do. With Van Hillen three.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: It was produced by Mike Post and he said that
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: he really laid off and didn't do much. And I
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: wonder if maybe that album needed some of that though,
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: maybe somebody needed to step in and say, hey we
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: should shorten it up or change that chorus. I don't know,
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: but that that was a controversial album for then.
• 35:02
  Speaker 6: I know.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: And I just read Ted Templeman's book and I think
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: he did have not a heavy hand, but he was
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: very much a guy that was in there going, look,
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: here's what I think you need to do in order
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: to get on the radio. Here's what I here's what
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: I think you need to do to tighten up what
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: this band is all about. Because the band was all
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: about the marriage between David Lee Roth and then you know,
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: the Van Halen brothers, and that was up, you know,
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: back to the idea of balance. That was the thing
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: that was tricky, but it had to work, you know,
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: and it worked.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: When it worked, it worked great.
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: And then when it blew up and it didn't work
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: so good anymore, income Sammy and for a while that
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: worked great.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: The you know, having the and I.
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: Think Templeman was a guy that could see this is
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: how I balanced these very volatile, very you know, aggressive,
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: high energy kinds of components. Templeman was good at that,
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: you know, he made those things happen. Yeah, And you know,
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: there's records that I love where you can clearly hear
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: that the producer did in fact, like Eddie Oford on
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: the early Yes albums that I love, like fragile and
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: close to the edge of stuff. They're clean and tidy,
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: like Steely Dan records are so clean, like they're so
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: amazingly great. And you know, in the early stages they
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: had Gary Katz and I think he was the guy
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: that sort of said this is how you do it, boys,
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: and then Fagan and Becker learned right, okay, at the
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: feet of the master, this is how we must approach
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: it in order to make.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: It be a realization of our total approach. Because those
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: records are probably as good as records.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Get book on Rock Podcast. We'll be back after this short.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Pause, Oh your breath.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: The Dynamic duo Rick Emmtt is here to talk about
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: his brand new book, Ten Telecaster Tales liner Notes for
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: a Guitar and it's music, and there's music to go
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: along with the book. It's collection of songs, Ten Telecaster Tales,
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: which you can also get that's in CD form, and
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: we can talk about there's a deluxe version of the book.
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: But I know these songs are on Spotify. Put together
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: this episode's playlist and you could find the songs by
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: going to the show notes collection of ten Beautiful Instrumentals.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: So let's talk about some of those lead track. So
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: Pushy is important because you say, that's what led you
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: to the idea of the whole album of fingerstyle electric
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: guitar playing. So let's start with that song.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: I had written a poetry book called reinvention, and I
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: have a little pieces and so so Pushy was a
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: little twelve bar jazz bluesy thing. So I started and
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: I was thinking, well, I could turn that into a tune.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: It's gonna need a little bit of embellishment, it's gonna
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: need a B section.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: And then I still felt.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: I'm not all the way there yet, and then I said,
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: you know, this needs like an intro that would be like,
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: what would I don't know, you know, Jimmy Page do,
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: what would Ted Nugent do? Like I need a riff
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: that's like kind of not big and dumb, but something
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: that's just a powerful bluesy kind of thing.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: So then I came up with this thing.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: It was like.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: I went, that's great.
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna do that four times, and then I'll go
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: into the twelve bar and then go through a couple
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: of twelve bars, have a B section, and then come
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: back to the bear. And when I did that, I realized, Okay,
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: this is this is a done deal. I got this,
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: this this tunic is happening. And then it was kind
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: of like because of that, now I created a sense
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: of momentum, a lot of the other the energy that
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: I needed to be starting to find other pieces of
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: things and start building things, being inspired by stuff around me.
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: I was going, hey, you know, and meanwhile, of course
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: the guitar is being designed, and we're going I'm thinking, oh,
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: these things that I'm writing it was COVID and oh
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: our house was being renovated. We were living at a barn.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: I was starting to feel like, Okay, I'm going to
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: write a barn dance suite of stuff and I can
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: play all of these on the telly when I finally
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: get the telling. So I was like, all of this
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: stuff was kind of coalescing, and you start to feel
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: like a project creatively has momentum. It's like you climbed
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: on the Derby racer at the top of the.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Hill and you know, now it's not going to stop.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: You knows it crashes, you know, and.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: The track's funky, scratching and slinky. Those are more in
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: your wheelhouse, whereas songs like so Pushy and g Whiz
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: are not.
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: The real challenge for me was the balance. Like the Alamande,
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: which is a very stately.
• 40:23
  Speaker 7: Dug doom ding dun ding dum, it has to.
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: Be very courtly, very stately, and that's hard For me,
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: I like to push notes, syncopate things a tune, like
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: to say gee whiz on. The album is a walking
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: paced boom bagoom bing bang, doom Ding do dog ding
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: dang do and that kind of stuff. It comes to
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: me naturally. But it's a bitch. It's just really hard
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: to play because you're you're playing walking base on but
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: you're trying to grab cors and you're trying to.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Put melody on top of So it's like that sort
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: of Joe.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: Pass Ched Atkins kind of territory where I'm going, oh man,
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: you know, have I been off more than I can chew?
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: But once I get it under my you know, under
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: my hands, I can't handle that stuff. It's the ballots,
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: you know. There's a piece at the end called Nocturn,
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: which is very kind of sad, very floating and drifting
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: and like snow on a moonlit night kind of it
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: has to have that feeling.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: It makes me start to think about.
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: Funerals and family members that have passed away, and it's
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: just like, as I say in the book, it's like
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: the Valley of the Shadows, and I don't like going there.
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: I don't like hanging around there. Because it's kind of sad,
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: you know. But I do think if you're an artist,
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: you do have to go to these places, and you
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: have to push yourself to try to find the discipline
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: to make that work, because if you don't have, you know,
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: minor key things, then your joyous major chord stuff like
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: funky scratching.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Is this easy thing for me that's based on.
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: The bluesy stuff that when I was a teenager, and
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: it's happy and it's energetic, and that's an easy place
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: for me to go and I love being there, but
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: if I wanted to have its full impact.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: I gotta go to the This is back to what
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: we were talking about before.
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: But balance, like if you don't go dark sometimes, then
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: the light won't seem as bright when it comes, you know,
• 43:00
  Speaker 4: when it happens. So you need contrast, and you need
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: the balance of contrasts.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Booked on Rock Podcast. We'll be back after this.
• 43:10
  Speaker 6: If you must not see anybody, want talk to anybody,
• 43:12
  Speaker 6: and if you do.
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: Because I have serious papercussions on future events.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: Swirling is beautiful and this is one of those songs
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: has that beautiful, breezy summer afternoon by the Brook kind
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: of feel to it. And this is where we get
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: to the foe, the new recording studio. This kind of
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: influenced that, right, That was the difference between because before
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: you were recording in a in a cellar, I think.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Yes, and as I sit here, you know, you guys
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: can't see it.
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: Maybe I could spin this around so just so that
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: you can get a look like here's here's what I'm
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: looking at.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: See all those windows all the way around. Oh yeah, yeah.
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: So that to me is like all my life I
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: was in studios where I was in a basement or
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: a place that had no windows.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: So this was more for the writing than anything else,
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: just so that I would have a creative space where
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: I could see trees and wind and clouds and sky,
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: you know, and my imagination could then move towards sort
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: of more organic kinds of feelings. And it was it's
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: been very good for me. It's like it has really worked.
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: And it's nice now that you know, I've got this
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: location for doing all this, you know, filming and videoing
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: and blah blah blah, you know, like it's it's just
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: a nice location I have. Now. As far as that
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: affected swirling the metaphor, there was not necessarily what I
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: was seeing out the windows. It was a river. And rivers.
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: They they show up in work all the time, right.
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: The idea of current and the idea of this thing
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: is like time it's flowing by, and life is like
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: a river. And you know, Springsteen talks about the river.
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: You know, uh, everybody talks about the river. Somebody's I
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: think was David Byrne, you know, and take me down
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: to the river and dip me in the water and
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff. It's it's a standard. I mean,
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: you get baptized in water, you know, we're borne out
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: of amniotic fluid, you know. But of course that once
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: I had a waltz thing going on in that tune,
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: that dum dum bang one two three four five six
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: one two three, and so that was like, okay, we're
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: flowing and we want to have the skirts kind of flowing.
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: And then it was like, oh, yeah, this is like
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: the river. And so then when I was recording, I
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: said to Blair Packham, was my engineer, I was going,
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: I think we're gonna need like a phase shifter or
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: some flanging. We got to make the atmosphere kind of
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: going like we want that feeling.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: That was cool.
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: That was an effect after the fact. But you know,
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: to me, that's one of the things that really makes
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: that thing work. It's just the sound texture of it.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: That one. The song Cowboy and gauchel Waltz are ones
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: where you say that you can get carried away too
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: easily using your right hand fingernails to flail away on
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: the strings that can overload certain frequencies. Is this something
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: where we get into the engineering part of it or
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: the mixing part.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Well, yes and no.
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: I mean it starts with stuff like you know, you
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: see these nails. These are acrylic nails, and I get
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: them painted on at the local salon and then backfilled
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: once they start growing out and their heart is rock
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: and they're great. But once I start flailing away on
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: strings with them, you know, and the gaucho waltz is like,
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: you know, it has that sort of genital e ginging
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: dingital jing ing ing jangital ing jingital dinging dinging, and
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: so it creates all of these upper frequencies, these things
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: that are like like really high, incredibly not what you want,
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: trouble that's sizzling away and you go.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: How do we get rid of that?
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: You know, and they so you're you're you're using graphic
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: e cues and you're trying to yank that stuff out.
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: But yeah, and if I had spent more time in
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: pre production, I would have realized, well, I should probably
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: be playing that not as hard, and I should have
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: them I should set the amp in a different way
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: and set the mics off of the amp in a
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: different way, and I should use it maybe a different
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: preset when I'm doing it.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: I should alter the part.
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: A little bit, so instead of playing closer back by
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: the bridge, I play a little closer up over by
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: the neck so that it's a little bit warmer and
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: rounder on the originating sound. You know, But you know,
• 48:50
  Speaker 4: you live and learn right, and and sometimes sometimes a
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: mistake is happy, and it's it's kind of something that
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: gives a piece of music. It's it's character, it's unique character.
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: Other times it's a mistake. But we were talking about
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: this earlier, and you're talking about van Halen three. Sometimes
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: it's important for an artist to make a mistake because
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: you learn from mistakes, and the things you learned from
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: mistakes will stick with you and form you far more
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: than somebody going you're great, You're for Oh, that's great.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: You're fait. Just keep doing the same thing.
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: Man, and David Bowie would say, no, no, no. You know
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: what's interesting when you get out in the water and
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: your feet can't touch the ground anymore, like you know,
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: you can't find bottom, and now there's a little bit
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: of danger. I think there's great truth to that.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: He just did a David Bowie episode. An author who
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: wrote a book it talks about that he was not
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: a Bowie was not afraid to make a mistake. I
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: don't think he was afraid of criticism either. I'm sure
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: it hurt, but he would rather take a chance and
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: fail than not at all.
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: And I think that's true of people, like even the
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: people that do end up having incredible commercial success. Let's
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: say right now, Taylor Swift. You know maybe as a
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: precursor to her Madonna, you do have to have a
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: kind of a spine of titanium because you have to be.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: No fear.
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna do this because I feel like this is
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: what an artist should do, and this is right for
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: me at this time. Even if it's a mistake, in
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: the long run, it's going to be something that moves
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: me ahead and opens me up and makes me become
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: a better me.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, that.
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: Thing about fear, that's a really interesting thing, like the
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: corollary to Bowie's you know, going in over your head,
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: as I would say, Yeah, just don't swim out so
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: far that the riptide gets you and you get carried.
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: Away, like, well you can lose your audience, right if
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: you do too much of it.
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you could lose your life, like quite literally, there
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: are artists who think, yeah, this heroin thing's awesome. Yeah, well,
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: you know, maybe not, like maybe you shouldn't get out
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: where the riptide's gonna get.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: You, you know. And I you know, I try not to.
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: Be too judgmental about other folks, but I do end
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: up having my own sense of critique, you know, like
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: I want to have a very strong sense of well
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: that's not for me.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: This is for me, and this is what I'm gonna try,
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: So judgment is a weird thing, like we're all human
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: and we're all going to have it. But I don't
• 51:40
  Speaker 4: think you'dnt necessarily want to be too judgmentle of your
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: own ideas too early in the game. You know, you
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: want to give them a chance to kind of you know,
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: grow their own legs and breathe on their own you know.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: Sure. I had a musician and he wrote a great
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: book on he teaches music. I think he taught Paul
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: Stanley's son too in New York. But anyway, it's just
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: a quote that stuck with me in regarding criticism. And
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: he said he always told his students, and this is
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: what he would do if somebody criticize his work, Read
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: it over and over again until it doesn't affect you anymore.
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: I thought that was interesting because some people choose to
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: avoid it. Maybe I don't want to read what people
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: write about my music. He chose to just take it
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: head on and just keep reading it until you develop
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: a thick skin to it.
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, yes, thick skin can be bad for you.
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: Because I think you do have to remain emotionally responsive
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: and empathetic. Like I think there's a lot of shit
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: going on in the world right now where there's too
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: many people that are not empathetic enough to other folks.
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: And you know, I think for sort of I don't
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: democratic liberal kinds of communities to work, which is to
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: say countries and and you know the planett Earth. You know,
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: we have to have a kind of a we can't
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: be so thick skinned that.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: We're just going like fuck you.
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: You know that that doesn't work on large scale kinds
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: of things. Municipalities can't work that way. States and provinces
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: and governments can't work that way. You have to figure
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: out a way to be empathetic to what other people
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: are saying and what are the so by the same token,
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: I think your point and the point of the guy
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: is a good one. That you do have to arrive
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: at a point where philosophically you can say, Okay, I
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: can see where they're coming from, and I'm not going
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: to necessarily let that color my.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: Own judgment or color my own.
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: Choices, but I will take it into account because you know,
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: But having said, I would tell students in a college
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: music classroom, Look, you don't have to get everybody to
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: like you.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: That's not how it works.
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: You only have to get a certain group of people
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: to like you and support you because of the fact
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: that you're showing them that you make pretty good choices
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: most of the time. And I mean, you know, not
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: to put to fight a point on things here, but
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: you know, Trump got you know, I don't know forty
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: eight percent of the popular vote or something. You know
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: more than you know Harris did. But half the voters
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: that can vote didn't even vote. And there's another twenty
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: five or thirty percent of the people that are living
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: in your country and they don't they they don't even
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: get to vote.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: So you know when somebody says, well, you know we
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: have a clear majority.
• 54:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, that's fiddling with the actual facts. You know,
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: that's fudging the way that truth should work. So in truth,
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: I think as an artist you have to have an
• 55:09
  Speaker 4: open mind. You can't close your skin, can't get so
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: thick that ideas can't get through to.
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: Your Yeah, there's the balance. You got to balance it.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: You can't be too far on one side or the other.
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: We're talking about your style of playing having to do
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: with being a singer, and so kind of want to
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: go back to that because there's a quote of the
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: book you say, I have to fully commit to quality
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: time in the woodshed, where I must relearn lessons about control,
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: restraint and the emotional power of letting notes speak in
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: eloquent phrases before I rush ahead to more and more notes.
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: Now this is in reference to a lamand and real
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: glide and winter Nock turned expand on that a little
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: bit if you can.
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: Well in the specific case of real Glad, I was,
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: I was rehearsing it last night, and it's like it's
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: a very laid back kind of Brazilian samba ish kind of.
• 56:02
  Speaker 5: Goojo and it only works if you stay on the
• 56:12
  Speaker 5: backside ding budda.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: Dada do. It has to glide, and if you start going.
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: Dud no, like now you've turned it in, it's a parody.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: It's not working.
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: It's it's you know, and it's a really difficult thing
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: for me because I am more like no God, he
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: wants to go boom doom doom doune God wanna push
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: the thing well, to push well, to push you know.
• 56:45
  Speaker 6: I like playing bit yeah yeah, yeah yeah, like I
• 56:50
  Speaker 6: you know, back in the day Triumph, I was the
• 56:52
  Speaker 6: rock and roll machine, like so that energy.
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: I have to learn how to be able to go, oh, relax,
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: sit back, you know, get on the back side of
• 57:01
  Speaker 4: the beat, be a little lazy. That's okay, that's gonna
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: make this piece work. And then there's sometimes where in
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: a ballad like Nocturn or Alibon, there's places where you
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: get through a phrase to a no.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: That needed that time to be to.
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: Breathe, and you need to rush to the next thing.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: That's really hard for me. I am not wired to
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: try and be to let that happen.
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: But this comes back to a thing where I'm gonna
• 57:49
  Speaker 4: go all the way back to when I was a
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: kid and I'm singing in the choir and you know,
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: you're learning how to sing, and you're realizing that a
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: song is a really beautiful thing because it's almost like
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: this mask you can wear, a costume, you can it's
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: a thing you can inhabit.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: You kind of commit yourself to the song. You become
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: the song.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: So if you do that, now the song is the
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: thing that can lead you to a good performance of
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: the song because.
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: You're letting it be the thing that dictates.
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: You're not being you, you're being the music. And that's
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: I know that sounds, you know, esoteric and bizarre and weird,
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: but I swear most good musicians learn that when they're kids,
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: and when they're teenagers they've realized, oh yeah, you know,
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: the music has to be the thing that leads. So
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: there are things that organically they're a challenge for me.
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: They're harder. But if I'm going to write a book
• 58:55
  Speaker 4: and I'm gonna go, I'm gonna be comprehensive about it.
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: I have to also be transparent. I have to be honest.
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: I have to say, look, you know, you might think
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: oh Rick is a master of everything going No, Rick
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: is not. Rick has severe challenges in some respects. And
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: you know, these are the things that I struggle with,
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: and I do it so that hopefully other musicians, other
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: people that are maybe you know, pursuing artistic endeavors, might
• 59:21
  Speaker 4: be able to go, Huh, that's good.
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: I learned from that. That's great.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: Booked on Rock Podcasts. We'll be back after this.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: There will be an intermission.
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: Interesting inside revelations to on the song Burley Town where
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: you mentioned Stephen Marley and also the song's DNA is
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: in a Triumph song we all know well Fight the
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: Good Fight from nineteen eighty one's Allied Forces.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: Where I was writing Fight with Kill who were the
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 4: drummer and Triumph He had this.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: That's kind of what he wanted. He wanted to on
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: a snare drum.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: He wanted to go and he so he had this
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: lick and it was like, can you find a riff
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: that goes with that. So we had that and then
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 4: we had this groove now that was like boom cat.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: It was very John Bottom boom chap, boom chat, the
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: boom pat.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: The boom chat.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: And so I'm starting to check and it's turning into
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: reggae and we're getting this check check check because it
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 4: kind of comes right over that boom whack boom whack
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: boom jack.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: And the bridge was like this bottle g garund to
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: bootle and give us like boom boom boom dub boom
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: boom boomba dubba.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: In the B section of this is reggae, right chutch
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: up chuck chutch up, chut chutch chet. So I'm going
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: I like this, like this is a really cool global
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: kind of appeal is in this rhythm. So I go
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: back to reggae time and time again for things. And
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: so I had this couple of these little ideas, riff
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 4: ideas and stuff, and I was thinking about my hometown, Burlington,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: where I live. It has a long tradition of a
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: team touring band kids that you know, like a marching band,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: and so on a spring day you can go for
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: a walk and you can hear them in the park practicing,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: you know, the drum guys doing their things, having a
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 4: having a sectional rehearsal, and sometimes they're walking around in
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: the park and they're all like, so, you go, wow,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: that's that's a cool tradition to have in a in
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: a city. But we have new festivals, and we have
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: jazz musicians, and we have country and western folks. There's
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: bars where you can go and hear all kinds of
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: great music. Plus it's a it's a waterfront town, so
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: there's peers, and there's bridges, and there's you know, like
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: lakefront and you can walk and so those are constantly
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: full of things, like you know, guys that they've set
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 4: out their hat and they're playing their tunes and they're
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 4: they're just hoping for somebody to chuck up, you know,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: a couple of we have loonies and tunis here.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: Hey where are you from?
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: I'm in the US in Connecticut. But I think of
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: the word buskers. They're buskers right seeks exactly.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: And I've always felt like talk about independent minds, you know,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 4: like a bus here. Sometimes they're out there. I once
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: wrote a song that was it was kind of about
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 4: I can't remember the title of it. I was on
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: my Good Faith album and it was about a guy
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: that was out busting and how you know he had
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 4: this freedom that a guy like me doesn't get to enjoy.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: You know, you're rehearsing bands and you're out and you
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: got this guy. You can choose any song he wants.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: You know, absolutely, he's got no boss. He doesn't have
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: to have a union courage. You know, although I think
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: buskers now do they not? Sort of municipalities sometimes make
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 4: them register.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: And I want to go back to chet Atkins and
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: Joe Pass because you mentioned them earlier. Chet Akins the
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: name is pretty well known, Joe Pass not so much,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: which he really should be. And this is in reference
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: to the track Gee Whiz and you get to sneak
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: in some quote unquote show off stuff.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I had gone to a jazz music
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: college for one all of one semester. But when you're
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: in that kind of a world for a little bit
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: of time's there's all those guys. Joe Pass is one
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: of the giants, Barney Kessel, West, Montgomery, hal Farlow.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: You know, there were all.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 4: Jimmy Rainey, there were all of these guys, and they
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: were all part and parcel of a scene where there
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: were big bands, there was the idea of be bop.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 4: All of this stuff had influenced guys to become jazz
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: guitar players on a really high level. And Pass was
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: the one that sort of became more of a solo
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: fingerstyle kind of guy. And if I was going to
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: pick sort of my three favorites, I would say Joe Pass,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 4: a Canadian guy named Ed Bickert, you know, sort of
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 4: a New York centric kind of guy, Jim Hall, and
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 4: they're so influential and like Pat Metheeni would say, oh,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 4: Jim Hall, like man, you know, but everybody kind of
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 4: knows Joe Pass because he was the guy that could
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 4: play all the standard repertoire, but on his own he
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: played Duke Ellington, He would play Gershwin tunes and just
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 4: you know, knocked him out of the park. There's another
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: name I want to mention there, Marty Gross. He was
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 4: a guy that that was a big influence on that
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: ge whiz to him because he was the guy that
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: did the sort of walking based chort change Oom doom
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: do continuing chordcord. I saw him once in a thing
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 4: called the Great Guitars. Maybe Joe was a part of that.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: I think Bickert was maybe a part of that. But
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 4: Marty would play these things like he had a song
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 4: was like, I got a chord for every.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: Note I sing.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: Doom doom ding chord, chord cord, I got a chord
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 4: for every note I sing. And it was like these
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: songs from sort of the as the twenties and turned
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: into the thirties and the whole thing of you know,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 4: the Roaring twenties and then the tin pan alley stuff.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 4: And Marty was just a master of that stuff. And
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: people can find him let's clips on YouTube, NPR Marty
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: doing his thing. But anyhow, I always liked that because
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 4: I thought, this is a very complete way of playing guitar.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 4: You're walking a bassline, you're playing chords, there's melody happening.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: And Marty Gross talks about you know, it cooks and
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 4: he likes it because it sounds fat, and I go, no,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: I get that. I understand that. And Joe Pass was
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: a guy that liked it when it was fat. He
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: played flat wound strings and he could just make it
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 4: swing so hard by himself. You know, it was like
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 4: a complete kind of symphonic statement coming off six strings,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 4: you know, and you just go okay, Like I like that.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: I would like to have some of that in what
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 4: I'm doing, you know, And I always kind of like that.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: I like heavy metal guys that approach their playing with
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 4: that kind of idea of voices. Now, I'm gonna skip
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: to something because if I was having a conversation with
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 4: some other musicians the other day and they were talking
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: about how Ed Bickert, one of my favorite jazz guitar pist,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: is also a guy that could make this very His
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: harmonic understanding was extremely high level, and sometimes he would
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 4: on the bandstand he would lean over to the keyboard
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 4: player and say.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Hey, you just don't play, just you layout because he
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: wants to.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: He's got his own ideas about harmony, and he wants harmony,
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 4: and he wants he needs space in order to be
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: able to make it happen. And we're having this conversation
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: now about guys like Joe Pass was a guy that sometimes, yeah,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: I think the best way for me to play this
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 4: gig would be solo. Yeah, I'm gonna just play, so
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: like he doesn't want anybody else getting in the way
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: because he wants the space to be able to do
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 4: what is a very complete musical statement to him, he
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: doesn't need other instruments.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: In order to make it happen. So there's a.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 4: Part of me like I think people that are like
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 4: folk Nazis, you know that they only want the yeah,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: like they can appreciate that. They might not appreciate the
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 4: jazz style music, but that philosophical approach. They would go, no,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: I really dig that.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want a purity of approach.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: Book on Rock Podcasts will be back after this. Now
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: you wait here, I'll be right back.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: All right, we wind down with the final track and
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: you did mention it before, but let's go back to
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: Winter Nocturne and this is the end of the story cycle.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: So it was a perfect track to end the collection
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: of songs with.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: People will often ask when you're a writer, like heyky.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: Where where where do ideas come from? You know, how
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 4: how do you what's your process? Where do you start?
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 4: You start with melody? Do you start with chords? They
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: come every way possible. They you know, I don't limit
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 4: myself as to oh this is my process and this
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 4: is the only way I do it. Now that we
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: have a digital world, and I have an iPhone with
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 4: you know, voicemailos.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll get an idea and I'll just sing something
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: into it, you know. Sometimes it's a groove idea. Boom chuck,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: boooom boom, to chuck a chicken, boom, choop of chocolate,
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: you know whatever.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 4: It's nonsense, but it's just it's just there's seeds, you know,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 4: and sometimes if you can get a seed into a
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 4: fertile ground and a little bit of water, hey, you know,
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 4: something can happen. So I had a seed of a
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 4: couple of weird little chords up the neck. But when
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: I was listening back to the iPhone little you know,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 4: chord things that I played off my guitar, I realized,
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 4: you know, this is E minor on a guitar, lots
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 4: of open strings. It's not, according to spinal tap, it's
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 4: not the saddest of all keys. D minor is apparently
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 4: the saddest of all case. E minor is a pretty
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 4: prolific guitar key because there's lots of open strings, and
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: there's lots of ways you can go, and there's lots
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 4: of beautiful, easy harmonics that can ring off the guitar. Now,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 4: when I first started a triumph, I had a piece
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 4: called Moonchild that was part of a in part of
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 4: a thing called Blinding Light Show that was on the
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 4: very first triumphle we made. I'd written that piece when
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: I was in college, so I was still a kid,
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: but it was e minor, It had e minor harmonics.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: And then I was.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 4: Thinking if I revisit that, not as you know, wanting
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 4: to lift the licks or anything, but just to find
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 4: the mood of that piece and the spacing and where
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 4: I was coming from, but don't lose the thread of
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 4: being in a very sad, reflective place. So the sort
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 4: of poetic amount of that I mentioned earlier of Moonlight
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: on sort of freshly fallen snow, so that you get
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 4: that crystallization, you get those sparkles, you know, Oh, the
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 4: wind comes in, then there's a little bit of snow
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 4: that drifts down off the sea. Just that kind of
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 4: an atmosphere, but also being real sad because I'd lost
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 4: my dad recently and so there was, you know, dealing
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 4: with that grief, and I went, well, be there, go there,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 4: live there, find the chords for that, find a chord
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 4: sequence that makes that kind of feeling work. So you know,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 4: a nocturne is generally something that's like a late night
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: kind of rumination. So I think one of the things
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 4: for me creatively the fact that I'd written a book
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 4: of poetry and then was also now continuing to write
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 4: poetry as one of the creative things that I do.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 4: Write guitar pieces, write songs, write poetry. I think poetry
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 4: has had a really good influence on me as a
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 4: musical creator because now I search for the poetic in
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 4: the musical things that I'm composing and that I'm writing.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 4: That's become a lot more important to me. So I
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: mentioned phrasing earlier as a thing, and there's a lyricism
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 4: that you're also looking for a lyrical approach to the
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 4: way you phrase things and the way things come together
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 4: and the way the things sort of pile up on
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 4: each other and integrate. So I think that was something
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 4: that I learned in my seventies.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: Well, the book's out in March twenty fifth, I believe
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: right that's the release dates ten Telecaster Tales, liner notes
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: for guitar, and it's music. So the music is out now,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: though I know people can find that I know it's
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: on Spotify. I believe the songs are on YouTube as well.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 4: It's streaming on all kinds of things. The guy that
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 4: helped me with my streaming sent me a texting that
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: day says, and it wasn't a on Deezer, but we
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 4: got it on Deezer now, and I go, okay, what's Deezer,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: you know, and you go, oh no, it's it's pretty
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 4: big in Europe, and like it's a lot of people
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 4: like I go, okay, great, you know, like there's people
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: that are far hipper than I am at this kind
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: of stuff. But apparently I'm on like twenty different streaming
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 4: platforms now right, and I've never really chased that kind
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 4: of stuff before. But you can also download it at
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: bandcamp dot com. You can get your own downloads if
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 4: that's the way you want to get it. And of
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 4: course I don't know if there's still any for sale,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 4: but at Vision merch dot com there hardcover versions of
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 4: the book looks like this, and they have the actual
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 4: CD in the back. I think they cost like one
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 4: hundred and fifty bucks though, so you know, they have
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 4: an autograph in a book plate on the front, so
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 4: it's the you know, the real if you're a diehard,
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 4: you can get that. Otherwise it's like twenty or thirty
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 4: bucks from the paperback and you can just stream it.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: Well worth it. Yeah, you can get the book on
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: Amazon and all the usual places too. And you have
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 3: a website.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 4: I do www dot rickammittt dot com, Rick ri k
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 4: ew me DOUBLET, but I don't do much commerce anymore.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: I kind of put it all out to third parties.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: Vision Merch is really a good place to go.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I'll put a link in the show notes so
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: people can access it there. Rick Emmett, thank you so much.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: Great to talk to you again, and maybe we'll have
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 3: you on again for the poetry book.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, excellent. I look forward to it. Thank you, Eric.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: This was a lovely conversation. That's it. It's in the books.