Latest / The Collaborative Canvas Podcast / Why Stories Move People: Data, Intuition, AI & Leadership | Ramira Taneja

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Why Stories Move People: Data, Intuition, AI & Leadership | Ramira Taneja · The Collaborative Canvas Podcast

• speaker-0: Let's start with a perspective to understand Javy Spuch Naita. How would you have seen the storytelling then? speaker-1: When I used to look at people and look at stories, that was I think more on the surface level. Sometimes talent is not the only thing that takes you to places. speaker-0: So how do you ensure that that story gets that visibility to the people who are actually watching it? speaker-1: I aware of the fact that mostly all the film festivals are about so-called intellectual stuff. We relate to characters. Not everything can be judged by maps or numbers. speaker-0: What is the b that bigger misunderstanding about storytelling that people actually end up doing most? speaker-1: I think some of them what are what they are trying to do is trying to make the information more attractive, but that's also not storytelling. Story never gets completed by a storyteller. It's the audience that completes that story. speaker-0: What is that element that you actually got into it which ensure key is film? Yeah. Some people understand human behavior through numbers and some understand it through conversation. But there are still some who can see it unfolding in scenes, characters, silence, and emotions. My guest today belongs to the third word. Ramira Taneja is a filmmaker, creative entrepreneur, producer, director, and someone who described herself as a spiritualist and a philosopher. Her journey has taken her across films, media, music, and the wider creative industry. She co-produces the feature film, Hindi feature film called Love You Shankar and directed the award-winning short film Wildflowers, a deeply human story created with almost no budget and completed under extraordinary time constraints. But what makes Ramira's perspective particularly interesting is that she does not simply tell a story or she does not see storytelling as someone, something limited to cinemas. For her, it sits at the intersection of the creativity. Intuition, human emotions, and now even data and consumer understanding. She recently spoke to the MR Grace community in a session exploring the power of storytelling through emotions, experience, creativity, and business impact. That conversation opened up an interesting door. Today we wanted to walk further through it and we will explore why some stories stay with us while others disappear, whether data can reveal emotions, how intuition influences decisions, and whether Artificial intelligence can even or ever understand what makes a story truly human. So I welcome Ramira here. speaker-1: Hi. I'm glad to be here. speaker-0: Samira, I've been hearing you, or probably, you know, I first for the first time I actually heard you on MR Grace. Storytelling because whatever I've been seeing around storytelling, this entire you know, if you really have to do a storytelling, you really have to know the basic elements of how a story is being told. Like in cinema is a different word altogether. You know, even if we talk about data in our own word, that's a different word altogether. And we've spent so much of time in this industry. So let's start with the perspective to understand Javi Sakuch Naita. How would you have seen the storytelling then? Because now you're entering a cinema, you've been a mass communication student or the graduate, or now you've seen the entire spectrum of how things work, and now the storytelling perspective is totally different. So just let's compare Pahelewal or Rapka. speaker-1: So did you ever think that you know you being in a completely different profession which is marketing and you do research data and now that I am in a different profession, we ever sit for a podcast and there can be any intersection. so earlier when I used to look at people and look at stories, that was I think more on the surface level. So for example, you see somebody and you say that this guy is successful or this guy is powerful or this guy must be influential or somebody is getting more opportunities or something like that. But over the time that I spent doing what I'm doing or you know, while I was learning the ropes of filmmaking, say in college. That time also I was more involved with understanding techniques and you know how to write a story or how to figure out about characters. But experientially, now that I've spent 15 years in the industry and you know I've observed some of the successful people, I've got that opportunity to do that from close quarters. So you know, you understand that what you see on the surface level. Is just the beginning, just the tip of the iceberg, and there are many things below it. Sometimes you understand that you know somebody looks something or somebody that you perceive to be powerful is just a puppet, maybe in someone else's hands. And also that is how as a human you evolve and we all evolve and evolve our understanding also. So sometimes talent is not the only thing that takes you to places. Sometimes they are relationships, sometimes it's the timing, sometimes you know, it's the confidence that the person is where the person is. And sometimes it is also the struggle that you know at point at some point in time you felt, you know, it's a negative thing that's happening to you. But sometimes actually it's the struggle that has got you where you are. So it's just that about storytelling, about people, the way I used to see. was more on the surface level earlier. And now I look for, you know, why the person is where the person is, what is beneath the surface. speaker-0: So, Ramira, I mean, I go back to the MR community presentation that the storytelling that you mentioned. So, you're basically a filmmaker, you're a spiritualist, you're a philosopher. These are three different languages, these are three different words. How do you see the inter interaction between all the three and the intersection between all the three? How do you see that storytelling shapes into all these ingredients together to make something which is you know? Again, one context which I really wanted to add, and I'll send this. I saw Wildflower. Then speaker-1: Are you okay? speaker-0: I was realized that whatever you mentioned, you know, about that boy, portrayed. And you know, he takes her to the hospital. So the the way you're linking all these three elements into that story, that came out pretty well after looking at it twice. But when you see on the from the first view, so how do you ensure that that story gets that visibility to the people who are actually watching it? speaker-1: So about the short film Wildflowers, on the surface of it, you know, it it has a plot and, you know, the appeal that is very simple and very basic. So anyone anybody who looks at the film would feel what you're what's it what's in it, dude. But I mean I was attending some film festivals and I'm I mean not earlier but off late. And I was aware of the fact that mostly all the film festivals are about so-called intellectual stuff and you know films that are you know intec intellectualized and have a complicated either a way of storytelling or a complicated story as the plot. So I wanted to break that. I wanted to tell something that was underneath that was not as simple. But in a very simple way for laymen to, you know, just see it in one go and, you know, not think much and then reflect on it. So the plot of the film is that an elderly couple clashes with some 20-something you know teenage people who are creating ruckus every day in the locality. And that's the plot, but that's not the story. The story that I want wanted people to reflect on was that. you know it's about how you look at a situation. when you see a person and you judge the person like as human beings we have an interesting habit of you know we look at you and we judge immediately. We see somebody is arrogant but we don't see that that arrogance might be coming from insecurity. Or we see maybe a behavior but we don't go underneath why somebody's behaving like that. So when you know sort of the Audience experiences with them what is happening rather than me being judgmental. I just made it in a very simplistic fashion so that audience has a change of perspective later on when they come to know about the circumstances of the kids and their behavior. And hence the story was more about mentorship and generation gap, which I wanted people to reflect themselves on because. Audiences are very intelligent and we can't you know, I didn't want to do any spood f smooth feeding or you know. But then later on even we were surprised that and it was just an experiment we did that if we make a simple film for festivals, but it turned out to be a decent film. And the way judges or people saw it, perceived it. They also felt that, you know, it is very simple, but you know, it just hits you. Yeah. And it's with you like for long. And coming to your question, how like initially while I was you know doing storytelling and understanding characters, I realized something very peculiar about human beings. We relate to characters and you know Not everything can be judged by maths or numbers. So spirituality and philosophy eventually came in organically. Because how do you otherwise deduce the psychology behind a behavior of a person? Spirituality for me is not about any prediction or any you know future forecast. For me it's about you know, observing people, being observant, being aware. of why something is happening, being you know non-judgmental and then you know just observing with a lens of you know no left or right to that person or thing or a situation. And you know that deduce just a philosophy like I mean as a journalist also if you write a feature or as storytellers also if we write an article We do some research and we get some data and but then we ask the most important questions that every everybody knows is why, what, where, how, when. So when we ask them, the story comes organically with a why, which is the psychology, why I feel something, why somebody does something. And eventually that philosophy is for some is for you and for the audience to deduce and That's how they all, you know, come in a straight line. speaker-0: So technically you're looking spirituality more in the context of th why somebody is doing speaker-1: So understanding of human behavior. So I mean speaker-0: Isn't that isn't that what we do in market research as well? I mean, through questionnaires, through qualitative research, through by talking to people like just speaker-1: So as you mentioned that MR Gray's session that I ended up doing and I'm glad I did that. So there if you see we have I have personally given the audiences some exercises. So because we wanted them to experience, observe about themselves first. So how they react to a story or a character or you know, a situation, a choice, a decision. And what happens is that it becomes their experience of what they feel should be the right thing to do. And it gives them an understanding of you know, when you have a data and you have ten pages of data and you can't make a meaning any meaning out of it. Or it can also be that, you know, you have just a statistic given to you, but the statistic might have some face to it, right? So if we say that for example, 30% of people or 70% of people feel in a different way, let's say. So then that has no face. But then when we approach it from a filmmaker's or storyteller's perspective, what happens is that you would want to know what why is this behavior coming if we apply it to one person. So why is that one particular person behaving in this Particular manner that, you know, we have come to this data of seventy percent people. So then the statistic is not changing, but it has a face, right? And then you come to the why, where, how. speaker-0: Welcome to this, Ramira. I mean, that's a very good example that you mentioned because most often I've also been thinking around the s same lines. So as a market researcher, we work on a lot of data to tell a story as to a brand should know exactly what is happening about his on his product with respect to the consumer and how they are behaving altogether. But if I really have to know a hypothetical situation or example. A lot of ads are being made on two things. One, you know, how much they really wanted to promote their brand, in terms of where it stands now, and on what context. So it the context could be spirituality or the context could be philosophy, the sp context could be you know, a certain behavior that they really wanted to showcase. And recently I've been seeing a lot, you know, a lot of critics on why I'm not going into it just for your reference, why we say. What we really don't want it to say for a particular religion versus what we actually do and what we actually project. In order to just put our product in into the front face and get a certain mass to reflect on it. In sub KPIC, there's definitely a story because you know your numbers, now you know exactly how humans are behaving, and then you create something like that. In the same context, if I if I'm a brand, I have my own data, I really wanted to tell a story about my about my product, but I also really wanted to relate it with my consumers. What Am I doing wrong? One project, I've been seeing that you know one religion is being promoted than the other one. Second, is are we in a very much clearer way? We know exactly what kind of a story do we really need to tell people? Because what I learned so far from the conversation, story is not something that you just you know socha or likdiya. Even fiction has some data backing it behind, whether it is a data about how you perceive a certain human being. So, you have misunderstandings, There are certain things which you would say. This is not right. Because even if the data is showing me this, I cannot make something this or conflict, it's a climax, it's a touch of wide flowers. At the end, we realize that How do these people actually connect? What is the that bigger misunderstanding about storytelling that people actually end up doing most of it. speaker-1: Sometimes storytelling has become a term you know widely used now for everything and anything. you know, we are having a discussion. It's not storytelling, but we are having a discussion. Some people might call it storytelling also. We arrange certain things in a you know, start, middle end. And we think it's story, like I know about a corporate person saying so we do that in presentations, like my presentation as a start and then the regular thing, then a middle and an end. So obviously I read the story. But that's not storytelling. Exactly. That's not a story. Some people, when businesses say that let's try storytelling around data, I think some of them what are what they are trying to do is trying to make the inform information more attractive. But that's also not storytelling. So I think storytelling is something that initiates a change in the other person. or the audience. Exactly. So I mean it makes you feel something. It makes you look at a situation in a different change change of perspective. look at a situation in a different manner. And hence then it leads to some action or, you know, you changing a habit or, you know, whatever. And various points in time, yes, I mean we sometimes know what where the story is going, and like you said, that can we you know know what we are trying to say? So sometimes, yes, on paper, you know, you plan it and it looks like you know you know what you're trying to say. But sometimes while you're executing it, because that's the difference, when we make a film, there's so many decisions a director is taking, or you know, with the actors or with the location or with the scene. And it is coming from so many you know experiences or you know, so many films that person has directed or dealt with actors or however, you immediately come to know, this is not working, so you change the scene immediately, or you know, you do it in a different fashion. So while executing, there are some other things that you cannot the decisions that you take, you cannot justify again, you can't justify them by maths. So they are more intuitive decisions, I would say, coming from you know, some patterns you would have you know seen while you're executing or making a film. So while the final thing gets made, sometimes you know, it's not what is on exactly on paper. And also sometimes you know you want a thing to like a message to propagate and you don't want to be you know the judge on the whole thing. So that is another way that you make a story or create a story. in the sense of for example in wildflowers, I'm again taking that example. If I'm telling a story about somebody, people are going to judge that person. So if in that if I wanted to take an opinionated stand, I would have maybe shown these teenagers as villains or you know so I could have instigated or manipulated an emotion into them. into the audience of anger or you know, these guys are bad or something. But rather than that, I just simplistically told the story and let them decide or let them think. So sometimes in advertisements like you were talking about, so it can be both ways. Sometimes they know what they're doing and sometimes it's just a message, but it's how the audience perceives. Because like I always say, that story never gets completed by a storyteller. It's the audience that completes. that story. So while for example you are having that data or you are making some story, what we forget is that how the other person is going to perceive it. So yeah. speaker-0: Issipei, when you were saying something, I I remember two things. when it comes to audience, and specifically I'll talk me as my audience. I mean, probably of course, you know, the people who would be watching this may say yes or no on my thought, but there are certain stories, when you start watching them, you are really not sure what's gonna happen next. I'm not saying about suspense thriller or thriller movies or horror movies, but you know, in general normal so even if I take your example as Wildflowers. Somebody was criticizing a youngster about how he behaves and what rockets they do in the society of Vagara Vagera. But the end was not predictable. Right? I mean, I was not even even able to predict this will have a twist there. Of course. Nice to do I thought some yes, honestly. But I was watching a movie recently and I s I immediately thought that you see So, how come these two frameworks are different? How can audience can easily predict when they don't even know about the story? speaker-1: So let's un try and understand it from the lens of spirituality and intuition. What happens is that while you're growing up, I mean, we are certain age now, our parents are certain age, and you know so while you're growing up, a person ends up assimilating a lot of information consciously, subconsciously, unconsciously, and that creates a pattern, sort of a pattern recognition within you. So when a story unfolds or when, for example, I enter the studio or something like I I immediately get what do you call these days what the Gen Z is calling the vipe or a gut feeling or something. So it's that thing that thing within in within you which guides you through what you are seeing. And there is this pattern that puts you on that alert mode. without your I mean even before your mind can, you know, analytically analytically analyze it and you predict, you know, this is gonna happen or that is gonna happen. So it's I think it's a sum total of all your experiences, information that you've accumulated over. So some people are some storytellers are brilliant, they're e able to surpass that and you can't predict what's gonna happen because you've your information or your assimilation of thoughts don't recognise any pattern over there. And otherwise, yes, we all the time keep predicting abhyoga, abyoga. This is beautiful. I told you abyoga. Yeah. And it happens mostly. speaker-0: But framework. How does the two different frameworks actually work? Because most of those storytellers, they exactly know there are a certain framework. I mean, maybe we recently I was studying through it. And then you have to go back to the first element to connect the last element. That's how the story gets complete. How these two different stories had has different speaker-1: there are there are speaker-0: Is there just one generic one? Yeah, bots are a frameworks. speaker-1: There are certain frameworks that are there that you know we are taught also in a storytelling workshop or a school or a film school or however. But I from experience I am saying that there's no fixed framework to anything. It's about you know you do some research, you collect some data. Now that data is telling you that somebody is doing it or this is what is happening. After which you you know apply your own emotions and your own empathy or understanding of the situation. So you ask yourself, what is it that I want to convey? And what should the audience feel? So you work on that. And then you also need to understand that if you know you want to have your own opinion or a take on the story. So that is another thing. What is it that makes it different? And or if we can if the data is showing that many people have shown or I mean, this is something that is nothing new. So if for a same thing we can apply a different perspective to the whole story and say it in a different manner. But while we are actually doing that, it doesn't go linear. Sometimes a problem can lead us to the story, say a business problem can lead us. to the starting point. Sometimes it's the midpoint, it's an experience that you pick out of the data that leads to the first point. So there is no structured one and two and three and four. But yeah, there are certain parameters that you know, are there. speaker-0: I mean post this shoot, I'll probably you know show you something that I've been working on for almost like two and a half years. So what I generally do is that whatever podcast I record, I write my a blog out of that podcast just to talk about what exactly we spoke in the podcast, and then I create a story as well. So my website has both of them. So whatever s we are doing right now, we I'll probably write a story around it. I'm still learning that, you know, creating that kind of a framework, which is why more of my question that Her framework can be different or not? Or do I really need to stick to one framework if I'm writing stories? Because every guest is different, every conversation is different. I cannot keep the same story framework on the same podcast. So I generally create a different narrative altogether. I try to make sure that if somebody's not hearing my podcast and still reading that story, he or she may judge it according to his own or her own wisdom. I mean just exactly the way I saw wildfire for the first time and then I repeatedly saw it again to identify what is that element that you actually got into it, which ensure kiffons. So I sa kya those me. And then I I was able to connect that those dots that you mentioned during the the community session. And then I started looking at my own stories. And I realized stories, that framework even doesn't exist. And now I it makes sense. speaker-1: So there can be some stories, there can be like I'm saying some experiences like I was mentioning in that session also that what if I make you watch a simple story or a scene where person is sitting at a railway station and the train is passing by and the person is just watching people people get down and new people hop into the train and the train leaves. That's the film. No dialogue, no nothing. So what's the story? So for everybody it can be very different. So if I give a story to say three different filmmakers, the same story. They'll come out with three different three different films. Correct. Or three different because their peg, as we call it, would be different. Their experiences are different, their psychology is different, their worldview is different, how they've grown up, assimilated information and become the person they are is completely different. And however, like I was mentioning that train story example, it's something You know, you are trying to do objectively, staying true to true to the reality, I would say. Like you said that you'll write a story after this about, you know, so what you're doing is maybe you are thinking you're documenting this happened. But again I'm saying the earlier thing that I said that somebody else is perceiving it in his or her own way. And you can't control if they have their own set of experiences and whether they would judge it or not judge it. But obviously if people will talk about it, then you know, it depends on the impact you want to create. If the if they're talking about it, if there's something that they remember it for, I think you've achieved. speaker-0: The fact is that there's so many people who are actually doing the same similar things. How does one impact can be differentiated by the others? How does that intuition thing would work here say impact create over? Okay, when when you're doing something, you're like hundred percent sure I'm doing something different. This will definitely change the world, but that doesn't happen every time. You really speaker-1: When when there have been times that I've had multiple entrepreneurial expeditions, I would call them. And I succeeded fairly in some and failed in some. So sometimes what happens is that I have an idea of a business or I have an idea of a film or a story, which I believe will work. you know, do something. But if the external circumstances or external you know, opinions of people or data or you know data is also based on past successes or, you know, it's not coming from any futuristic so if there's a data that exists it can't mean that you can't break the convention or the flow of something that was happening and then there's something that comes out of the box and it also works. But those are like one, two percent of the but I'm saying that sometimes it happens that all the external circumstances, data, everything you have taken into account and all that that is pointing towards this might not work. And but then there's something that is telling you that you still need to go ahead with the project or the idea or you know your hunch on it. So that is intuition and but then it's a really misunderstood you know, word and these days you have to be very careful on because sometimes it might be, you know, that I am biased towards what I'm thinking. I am thinking that I want this to happen and hence it's you know, coming from something that I want to achieve or do. So it kill it Can be wishful thinking, it can be you know an instinct. You don't have to go on that hunch and follow that hunch blindly. professionally, I would say as a filmmaker, I would you know look at the human perspective of whether I feel this is doing good to what I'm wanting to do. And as an entrepreneur, I would still need evidence. So I think practically. It should be combination and in between of both. I'm saying it from experience because I've gone to the other side also and, you know, decided the other side also. Like earlier I used to feel that professional decisions are always rational. So once you know, I went on to do what I wanted to do and it didn't work out, that experience it led to you know, saying, No, no, now we can't rely on intuition. So let's keep it aside. All professional decisions have to be rational. But you know, now I don't dismiss this thing. I rather question it. So, for example, in between I'd started keeping like a journal, and you know, so I saw something and something happened. I used to immediately write it down that this was the first feeling that came into my mind. And I used to see if this is true or no. So this is how in speculation what we do. Like we see a trailer and we say that this film will work or not work, or this is not looking like it'll make money, or so the thing is not to you know follow that hunch or intuition blindly, but the thing is that you question yourself is this coming from a bias? Is this something that I am wanting to do and it's coming from that wishful thinking? Or is it really the first thought that came and you want to investigate further on this with data or some other example in the history you might find that something worked? Or can there be something like a midway around it wherein you find a way that? I mean, in filmmaking you still in filmmaking you still have to decide, you know, that with story speaker-0: Challenge is a new speaker-1: you can have actors, you can make a project. And you can have a story, you can have everything, but then something ha f is there speaker-0: So you're saying basically there is there's always a different challenge whenever you do certain things. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: It it's not never been the same. Not really. You spoke in the MR community. So they work on the rich data, they collect the data, they analyze the data, they make us you know brand look more powerful, their leadership is like very strong. Or cinema on the other side is also working on certain data because when a story writer or a writer writes a story. All those intuitions, all those observations come into that play. They too go hand in hand. What does a researcher should pick up from that cinema and what he or she should not borrow? speaker-1: So cinema has some things that you know the researchers can borrow and or it can teach researchers certain things, and that is you know humans don't behave exactly the way they tell you, you know, that they are they like something or they dislike something. There are always contradictions and You know, sometimes you have the data and you might reduce it to a number and say that this is what is visible, like like we were earlier discussing, like say twenty percent of people our age are lonely. So this is what it is saying. So then what happens is sometimes there's a contradiction attached to how they are behaving. The way they are behaving. And that contradiction, one researcher needs to keep an account. Because what happens is when you reduce something to a number, you feel like you know everything. But that is not the case. Because people, like you said, are varied and they're coming from varied backgrounds and they have various and they might say something but not behave in the same manner. Like people like me would want to eat healthy food. But every time I'm out, I end up eating pizza, burger. So ha what am I doing? I am I'm behaving in a different manner so that contradiction sometimes might be the insight. So that is one thing, and the and not losing the human or humanity angle out of the you know, your pie charts and your flow charts and your spreadsheets is what you know the cinema might add to value add to researcher. And As cinema people, we have a lot of liberties that we can take. That I think researchers should avoid because researchers do have a responsibility. We also do have one, but researchers have a responsibility to be true to their findings or their data. And so, in the manner that while making a story, you should not distort facts, right? But in cinema, we have the liberty to exaggerate something. We have the liberty to compress timeline. We have the liberty to create more characters, manipulate some emotions here and there. We have that liberty. So I would say that you borrow the lens of cinema, but you don't have the license like us to do whatever you want with the data you have. You have to be very true to you know what the numbers are saying. speaker-0: So who are the best storytellers in in a management? It should it be a somebody who's creating or working on the database, or should who be somebody who's telling a story to a brand, or it should be not just a communication skill, but more of a skill that a leadership should become make it more of a capability for themselves? Somebody who can tell the story in a way that brand can see from the lens ki jab ne bulaki, you know, I give you a story that somebody's sitting on a station and then trains are going passing by. I can started I started imagining that situation. I can see, you know, there's a rain falling, this b Bandai sitting on our bench and looking down, then the train came, people. So who should say the right story? probably whose capabilities should be in in in an organization if they really have to. Off beat question, of course, but I wanted to know from your perspective because you met so many people. speaker-1: I think definitely the leadership. Storytelling will become increasingly like a capability, additional capability for leaders, because in today's age of AI and technology, leaders don't have a problem of information. So a person who's making what you said earlier, like a database or something. So everybody has information, but I think leaders will have a problem in the meaning part of it. So and but with a responsibility because when you try and find out what is underneath and try and tell something to your team or to the people, you have to be true to what you are telling them. There's a web show on Amazon called Made in India Titans. So they are telling story of how the Tatars they you know build this sister concern. Of them called the title watch. And there you see multiple layers of leaders. And what they are doing is they have a story for the brand as well. And they have a story for the organization as well, which they are passing down to while they're hiring people also. So you know, when you have to tell your team that this year we have to work more hard. And you know, this is the growth we are aiming at. That's what happens in you know, projections and sales conferences and so you know, so you have to work hard and this is the growth that we are aiming at. So what do you understand of it? You're already working hard for the company. But then when you give them a meaning or a context or make them understand their role in the entire film or what they are contributing, what how their role is important and what so if Vis-a-vis saying that we are aiming at 20% growth and you have to work, that means you have to that translates into you have to work more harder. If that person says that you know, we guys together have an opportunity of taking the company, say, from X to Y, and why we are doing it is we want to bring this change in the community or with the product we are launch launching in the generally in the society, and this will what This will be what will happen. speaker-0: In a way the right message that you wanted to find. speaker-1: Then then what happens is you make a group of employees into you know fighting for the same purpose. They understand that emotion and then you know they always will ask you what more can I do rather than working hard to work hard to home career in a company kill every year we are doing. And if it also if it means say you have to put two more hours extra so that we are able to get this change in the company and your role is so important. So then it might translate into them having more salary in the coming year. And also, for example, like I have hired teams twice in my company and fired also and done away sometimes with some people, some resources also for various reasons. So sometimes what happens is And plus, you know, when you're working for larger organizations, sometimes what happens is that organization might not be making profit or it is not doing well. But the leader comes and leader or you say the manager or the CEO comes and says that, you know, we are doing well. According to them, they are what they are doing is they're motivating people. But then if there's no truth behind this, so what will happen is the your team will buy it for some time because they have trust in you and you know, you are saying that we're doing so well. So if we put in this much. But then it fizzles out in some time. So because they also are people, they also have their own intuition. They understand if you're lying or not lying. So lying is not storytelling. But yes, if you tell them a factual situation that this is what you know the situation of the company is right now, and you supplement it with a story. For example, your Brother or somebody like a Tata or somebody in your family had a company or you yourself had another company which failed at one point in time, which is coming from experience. And you know then how you made sort of sense of the learnings you had because of that failure, what you learnt out of it, and you made a note of all of that, and how you then as a team of employees again got it out of losses. And you know, this is where it is right now. So this is something they will understand more and relate to more because then then you've given them a truthful context to the whole thing and they will rather you will be surprised the people will support you. speaker-0: So, two stories. One is you remember that ad which came for seventy hours a a week ad where people were talking about, you know, you your bosses really need to buy another yacht, they have to go on a vacation, so you work hard. So that was one of the story. And the second I was re I'm able to recall the last conversation I had with one of my guests. She shut down the first business because somebody told her that you don't know anything about consumer. Whereas she was actually selling and she knew about consumer. But Somewhere down the line she never felt that, you know, this is scaling and I really wanted to scale it because I am still not solving that problem, which I really need to do. And then she started again and now she's becoming an another good you know, name into the industry by selling those clothes which people or the women actually want. So I can easily relate to how these things are actually working because she also mentioned that, you know, getting viral is not the point. Getting or probably, you know, having that trust in the consumer that makes no speaker-1: Like I said, it's the impact that somebody wants to create. speaker-0: Yeah. So th you mentioned about the impact, you mentioned about the trust, you mentioned about, you know, the facts that n should not be diluted because cinema has the liberty, but you know, the actual brand doesn't have it. So what are those core responsibility a storyteller should have, even if it is from the leadership team or from the data team, within our industry or anybody who's actually, you know, creating a story for a consumer that whether it is a product or anything else, what is that core responsibility they should abide by? speaker-1: so I mean though I have I think in the entire conversation have slightly touched upon this fact, but I think as a responsible storyteller, like I'm saying, like as a spiritualist, I might you know identify a pattern with you and I might I would not say identify, I might observe rather, because observation is without judgment. So I might observe a pattern with you. And that pattern you need to acknowledge. And that is obviously something that is underneath what is visible. And once you find or realize that you can you have the ability or have developed that ability to see sort of something that is underneath, then you also have a responsibility of you know not trying to manipulate it to you know serve you or your purpose and or you know, not to sort of exploit vulnerability of the other person or consumers or the target audience. So, you know, when once you know the target audience and once you've identified a pattern like through data or however, and once you've asked your you know what where when why and how like one h and four W's and you've arrived at a story and you in that story for example if you're talking about A certain section of people like you were also you also had a question, or you're talking about somebody, then you need to have that you know thin line between you know a not losing on the humanity part and b trying to understand that you are here trying to you know convey something through the characters who exist within your story. They are not I mean if if somebody Thinks starts thinking beyond it, what happens is those people are actually living. Your story will end. I mean, your advertisement or your story or your film will be there for some time. Some people might remember it for a longer time if they emotionally connect. If they don't, your story will end. But people will keep living. So there are characters, if you are talking about people, you have to be very you know, objective. to what you're trying to say and maintain a human angle to not crossing the line. speaker-0: So Ramira, should every story should have that emotional connect or does it not? Do does it need it? Does it not need it? speaker-1: so so many times as this is easy slightly easier. so so many times as filmmakers you know we talk or discuss about you know films that are technically very sound. Technically they are good films or good shows or and people applaud it for, you know, the technique and the way it is made. There's no fault you can find in the product or however. But there's no emotional connection. So what happens is you get the applause, but people forget about it. So but then if you emotionally connect, you are working on something that stays with them f speaker-0: For longer periods. speaker-1: or for longer periods of time. So a story can exist without emotion. Yes, it can. But that is not something that you know, I am interested in, or I don't think any brand would be interested in. So if brand is telling a story of an entrepreneur. You know, the emotion attached will make the audience feel what she is going through in the journey. The experience that they have, you know, they will relate to what is happening. And you know, creativity will somewhere you know when the way you project the story, the brand is telling the story. So creativity will make them you know, project her in a manner that how her journey is different from the other person. So I mean, I think emotion is an intrigu integral part of storytelling if you want to create a larger impact. if I mean like for sales, what happens is sometimes some guys come to me in certain networking events and they say that in the entire event I sold XYZ. I mean n numbers of say insurance or n numbers of anything. But then the thing is you know, It can be a simple communication message that you give that can lead to sales. But you know, that's about it. It fizzes out after that. But if you want to really build like a long term you know, impact or legacy, then without emotion I don't think it's possible. And same is the case, like sometimes some films you see and you say that. But there was nothing in the film that I remember. So then what's the point? speaker-0: welcome to the jungle. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: So course, of course. Of course. I mean but it does have an impact because if I am saying this movie then it let it has that kind of a speaker-1: So your manager might say message dialogue, but after that what nothing. It just got over there and then. So it is like that. But what? I don't remember anything of the film. speaker-0: Correct. So we are sitting in an age of AI right now. And I've been seeing a lot of those small movies, your short movies on YouTube, which are being created through AI. Same character, same looks, and everybody is using the same, I think, you know, the background of the users of AI, the way they are actually creating. There are stories, there are two types of stories. One is we are talking about our history and people are actually narrating that history through those visuals. Or second, they're actually creating a story. Where does that responsibility thing come into this? Where does and again, you know, there's something that I was hearing on YouTube, about Elon Musk who said everything will be taken over by AI in next five years, but arts is something AI would need 30 to 40 years to get trained himself. To become something which we see as cinema or arts at this point of time, AI would not be able to do that for the next thirty to forty years. Now, citing those examples and looking at what is happening on on How does storytelling fit in the age of FIA? Because even ChatGPT can write a story within those elements and you can post it on LinkedIn and tell, yo, yo, yo, this is what I did. But that's not the true story. That is a story which has already been created based on the data which is already available to the ChatGPT. You just gave him give it something which can help it design that story for you. But that's not a true story. It would have elements from so many things. Or so many data which was which has been backed around it. So where does this storytelling fit in the age of AI? speaker-1: So, AI has been the hottest discussion since you know, more than a year. So wherever I have you know, these days I get called as a speaker on in on MNE space or whether it's the contemporary spirituality space on experiential wisdom, this, that, there everybody has one thing common that they're all talking about, how AI will you know, affect us or how AI where we are heading or however. So AI is something that is obviously faster than us. I mean, we if you want to create a competition with the technology, you can't obviously, it's processing things faster than us. And you know it can recognize again, it can recognize patterns which are also coming from the information that already exists of various sour from various sources or various you know data sources. It's deducing information patterns. You these days I mean it can write a story as well. So it can you know create a three-act structure, it can you know also create a middle start in. But the thing is that if you tell AI you know Obviously humans are still prompting, thankfully. So if you tell AI to write a story about grief, it'll take two minutes and give you some story about grief. But has AI ev ever felt the grief that happens when you lose someone? If you tell AI to write a story about heartbreak, it will do that. But it has not gone through any heartbreak, right? If you want a story about loneliness, it'll give you in one minute. But we are the ones who get up at 2 a.m. and think that, you know, we have nobody, we are lonely. So AI cannot replicate that. And AI you know is not someone who has the experience by the side. That's where again spirituality comes into the picture. But I think these days when you see the short films people are making through AI and what is happening is that it's a classic example of something that used to happen with us in college when we were studying filmmaking. So sometimes you know, we we were given a camera and we were told that you go and shoot film and you have five minutes or you have ten minutes or some Time angle to it. You go and shoot a film and come back. You return the camera, then you edit, and same day you have to speaker-0: Presented. speaker-1: present it. So some of us, what were they doing? Some of us were going out capturing some footage. thinking that we can make sense at the edit, we'll do something, arrange it, however. So I mean that is not filmmaking. That time our professors used to say you have technology, you have computer, you have the editing software doesn't mean mean you can make a film. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Or you can tell a story. Actually the story is something that you know you should know that is it worth telling. So in the age of AI, you know, there there are there is again gonna be plenty of information. But you know, there will be people who will be racing in the rat race, just making content, and I think that is simply some noise, and they will get lost in that noise. vis-a-vis, if you consider AI as a collaborator and you have a clear direction of what you want to do, as humans, I think we need to understand what is worth telling. So we are heading towards a future of emotional intelligence and along with I mean collaborating with AI and also about people who will have opinions. They will decide, you know, if there is so much of information there so there are plenty of love stories around. But what is your idea of love? And so there is there are plenty of films on say some other thing around. But is it worth saying? I mean is there is something I mean You write you tell AI to create a story on say anything like competition. It gives you five options. But what is the thing that's worth saying? Yeah. speaker-0: The point is again, you know, if even if I choose one out of it, who am I actually reaching out to? And whether it is within them is needed or not. So there are a lot of questions, Mark, which are still there and I think to a certain extent I still believe, you know, Elon is right that, you know, the arts will take about fourteen and hearing you I think Abi or Sosal laging, speaker-1: AI needs to develop emotional intelligence that speaker-0: Ramira, you've been speaking in a lot of sessions. You've been a filmmaker, you've been a spiritualist, you've been, you know, on on the path of philosophy as well. And you're what is next chapter that you're unlocking? Because you've been a very so-called corporate drifter or you know, somebody who has been diversified to a certain but you're you've still been on the same path of understanding human and predicting or, you know, projecting the way human thinking is all about. So what is n what is next that you're looking at? speaker-1: So I in my journey have been asked numerous questions about you know, who am I exactly? And, you know, I'm doing various things. I entered in the industry through one door and explored various other doors. And so I I was a theater actor, then a singer, then ventured into studying filmmaking, then working with the filmmakers, writing stories. To the trade part of the film in distributing. And now I am exploring the spirituality part of it, intuition part of it. But I think the common thread is human beings, like you said, that I've been working in and around human beings. And you know, I was at a point so affected by these questions coming at me at one point that even I started to question that, you know, what is it that. I want to become, but then I realized the question was only wrong. So I think I would want to be I mean answering your what next. I think I would want to be known as somebody who has original thoughts on storytelling, on human behavior, on intuition, spirituality, experiential wisdom. Also, I would want to be known as someone who makes you see things differently and someone who has the courage to reinvent because that is what I have done in my entire speaker-0: You you already started on that because speaker-1: journey. So I don't want to be sometimes I feel, you know, that you have one image or identity and sometimes it becomes like a prison. You get you know, boxed. So that I've always broken, restarted, reinvented. So yeah. speaker-0: Well, I think you already started with that because you know with M.R. Gray's session, you came out with somebody who has started originally and knows how things in a very original way is being done. And having said that, we generally conclude these conversations with Rapid Fire round. And I think something that I've over a period of time learned that, you know, when you summarize the entire episode in Rapid Fire, it becomes easier for people to actually get through it. So here you go. A story you wish You had created. Pure film. speaker-1: I think Anand speaker-0: I love that movie. speaker-1: I think I mean people see it as a person dying and you know trying to inspire people but I would rather take the other perspective. I would trace the transformation of people around him who the dying man was trying to tell how to live. speaker-0: A storyteller you would quietly sit and learn from. speaker-1: I would say Lord Krishna, the way he has you know given us the Gita and w whatever problem or whatever confusion we have, we keep referring to that text. he made he he was the ultimate psychologist, philosopher, I mean everything, spiritualist. he you know Lord Krishna's teachings are that you know sometimes you don't need a solution. You just need to look at a thing in a different manner. And then there would be someone like maybe an Osho. I would not say that everybody would agree to his teachings, nor do I have an idea that if I agree to what he said, but for a fact that in his storytelling he made you uncomfortable. He made you ask questions, he questioned your con conditioning, your society. So sometimes storytelling is not about everything that's good. So something and maybe kabi. Kavir also. He was one poet philosopher who used to say in simple words something and then you used to think Ari to Bal speaker-0: Comment le speaker-1: Ya Boldiya. It was like you studying a full text. But uska sartu yeah, speaker-0: Exactly. speaker-1: ki poti parpa jagma pandevbayana koe. And then it's like, in the end nothing matters, it was just about that one feeling, that love part of it. speaker-0: One storytelling cliche that you would like people to stop using? speaker-1: Maybe that people think every story formulac films or people think that every story needs a hero. I don't think so. And there can be a story can be just about experiences and people, not necessarily one hero. and maybe they there should not always be happy endings or sad endings, they can be just endings like you know for you to think further. speaker-0: One emotion businesses consistently underestimate. speaker-1: I think fear. So people buy out of fear of what they think would happen or, you know, to I mean thinking that they have a belief about themselves that they don't want to change, maybe. speaker-0: Okay. A film every business leader should watch? speaker-1: It's about leaders understanding who they are leading, huh? speaker-0: If this if the next chapter of your life were a film, what would you call it? speaker-1: Mm second act. Second act. I don't see anything changing much. It's not that I'm leaving what I'm doing. Like once an engineer, always an engineer. So once a filmmaker, always a filmmaker. That that doesn't mean that I don't know anything about I mean any other business. And I think I see the various things that I've done finally making sense in the second act. speaker-0: True, I understand that because a filmmaker is more of a s somebody who has learned psychology, somebody who has understood spirituality, somebody who has been part of the philosophy. And it's not just, you know, one context. There are multiple contexts, it's always a growing thing within. So I completely understand you really the second act where it is actually coming from. So Ramira, thank you so much for making time out for this conversation. Because I think storytelling has its own challenges at this point of time and people have the word of AI around them. It always they think that, you know, I can write story, I can be speaker-1: Thank you for having me. speaker-0: True, true. The future belongs to the storyteller. speaker-1: It's a one of a thing that I've done. Like you said, that Emma Grey session. speaker-0: So, I mean, I think because of that session, and thank you, Sucheta, because of you know having that session and cutting us together. So it's more like you know I have spent twenty-five years trying to understand people through research and she has spent almost like twenty plus years almost? Fifteen, sixteen years. Fifteen plus years understanding them through characters, emotions, and cinemas. And yet somewhere during this conversation the two words began to look remarkably similar. And that's had been a constant effort where A researcher look at through a the same lens as a filmmaker does. Because whether we are creating a film or studying a consumer or building a business, the real challenge is not simply collecting more information. It is finding the human truth within it and then expressing it in a way that another person can feel it. I mean, I think that's exactly what Ramiro also mentioned. That if somebody is not emotionally feeling around it, then it's that film is not film. It is just a waste of money, even if you have made sales through it. But before we close, I have one final question, Ramira. I just realized, you know, while talking to the audience that if someone is watching this conversation today and they really wanted to understand one simple thing about a story that they really wanted to write in a perfect time. So does that perfect time or perfect place or perfect story exist? speaker-1: no. Start when you can and see how it goes. speaker-0: Start when you can and see how it goes. Thank you so much, Ramira. I think this is we really wanted to know because we are in a business of consumers understanding and storytelling definitely does make sense. Procrastination speaker-1: Procrastination is speaker-0: is not. I mean a lot of people would always say that procrastination is not, but at the end of the day they are into that same zone. speaker-1: but you can learn from my experience. I've just dived in the deep waters and come out and then now I'm trying to make sense of speaker-0: whole ocean. Look forward to the second act as well. Thank you so much again for making time out for this conversation. It was such a wonderful talking for past one week. We have been chatting a lot, knowing you much better than I think I've been knowing myself. speaker-1: two months ago it's again like symbolism or a sign. Two months ago I was flipping through my phone and your podcast things were going and I was like okay, I never thought that we were gonna land up to a common content. speaker-0: I agree. That I I am I'm so glad that you know my efforts are speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: thank you everyone for watching and I would also like to leave you with a small thought. We are all creating stories and carrying stories. Some have already been told, some are still being written, and some may never find their way into the word unless we decide that there are they are worth sharing. So if This conversation made you look at storytelling differently. So do tell us what connected you with this in the comment box below. And like this episode, share it with someone whose story deserves to be heard. And subscribe to the Collaborative Canvas Podcast for more conversations like this. Until next time, stay curious, stay collaborative, and keep building what next. And thank you, Ramira, again, because it's always a pleasure talking to you. speaker-1: Thanks to you. speaker-0: Thank you so much.