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Top Three St. Louis Cardinals Who WILL NOT Be Back Next Season · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another edition of Cardinal Territory.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Jim Hayes with Kyle Gibson and Lance Lennon. By the way,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: we haven't done this in a while, but if you
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: like Cardinal Territory, and who doesn't, go ahead and hit
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: the subscribe button and the like button and help us
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: get those numbers up. Gentlemen, how are we today?
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, we're doing great. Nothing like starting it off with
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: you begging. That's all I'm here for. Yeah.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Jim, I hope you had a good weekend.
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: I just wanted to go ahead and publicly apologize for
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: totally bailing on the guests last week. It's when I
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: coordinate our vacation last minute to make sure that you're
• 0:47
  Speaker 4: all alone with Yvonne. So I apologize, but it seemed
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: like it went really well.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: I apologize to Ivan, actually. I don't really care about Jim.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, buddy.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I will say this. We're always full transparency on this program,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: but Ivan said, Where's Colin Lance? He was like, all right.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: He looked hurt. He looked hurt because he.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Likes you guys. I know. I felt bad. That was
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: the only thing I felt bad about.
• 1:17
  Speaker 4: I realized that back in the backwoods of Hazard, Kentucky,
• 1:23
  Speaker 4: where my kids were racing, that this was not going
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: to work very well. If you could have seen the setup,
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: you would have understood.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: It's all good.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: My phone got too hot on the beach.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Well, you turned into a robot soon.
• 1:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we couldn't do that.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: We couldn't do that.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: So today is the day, per instructions from high above,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk about three Cardinals who we don't
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: think are coming back. Now, I want to preface this.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Doesn't mean that we think they should go. Doesn't mean
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: that we think they're not good players. It means... that
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: the roster has to have some shakeup to it. And
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: these are the guys who might be part of that
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: because it is a rebuild. So I'm going to start
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to throw out a guy who I
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: know you guys like, Nolan Gorman. Gorman is a guy
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: with 27 homers, 2023. We know he hit at the
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: big league level, spent most of his time at AAA
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: last year, hit under 200 with the Cardinals, did have
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: nine homers, showed power, better defensively than a lot of
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: people give him credit for. and I just think he's
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: a guy another team is going to have interest in. Look,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: the Cardinals gave.
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: Him his shot.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: They could have Sejasi at third base. They could have
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Jordan at third base.
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: They could have.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Baez at third base. They have other options, and they
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: did give Gorman a big runway, and he didn't make
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: huge strides with it. So to me, I think based
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: on the fact that if the Cardinals are going to
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: have to make moves, which they are because it's a
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: rebuild and they're trying to get better, Gorman is a
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: piece that some other team is going to say, I
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: think we can fix that guy and have a 27,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: maybe 30 homer guy.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Your thoughts. Kyle, you want to go first on this one? Yeah.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think he's a guy that.
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: He was one of those guys that when Lance and
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: I were there, I thought that for this team to
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: make a turnaround in 24 and 25, I thought Gorman
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: and Walker needed to be those two guys that took
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: the step. And in 24, they didn't. And in 25,
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: they didn't. Walker, you know, obviously did this year. And
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: it was incredible to see. But I just kind of
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: thought those two were the power bats that, you know,
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: Moselec was looking at to be, you know, the surging
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: bats in the lineup. And... In time, they just didn't
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: work out. So, unfortunately, I think you're probably right. I
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: think we're at a point where with just roster construction
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: alone and when you're looking at what's this lineup going
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: to look like from a power, contact, defensive standpoint, I
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: think you're probably at a spot where it's like, listen, Nolan,
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: best for both situations here. Go get you a fresh start.
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: And this isn't something where, and this is where Cardinals
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: fans have to, they have to understand, like, if Nolan
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: Gorman goes somewhere and hits 25, 30 homers, you shouldn't
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: be surprised.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: Like, he has a chance to be a very good player.
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: So, you know, if that's the case, a fresh start
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: can do a lot for players and, you know, just
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: with new eyes and new voices.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: What do you think, Lance? Because change of scenery sometimes
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: changes everything. this guy's going to be a free agent,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: you know, so he's controllable for a couple of years.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: It seems like there'd be interest in him.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're thinking, you're thinking cut bait is they're
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: just going to not, or a DFA then.
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: It's a no brainer for a team to pick him
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: up and take a flyer on him. Um, the question
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: is going to be, is he off the roster because
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: of trade or not? If they can find something that
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: they can give value for him. Cause I think teams
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: see value in him, but he also is about as, um,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: He has probably his most diminished value as he possibly
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: can right now. So that's going to be the question.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: I think for his sake and the Cardinals' sake, it
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: might be time for him to have a fresh start.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: The question is, can they get any value for him?
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: And like we said, they're going to have to do
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: some roster cleanup. And that's how it goes every winter.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, they've just been stockpiling prospects that are coming
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: up on having to be protected. So, you know, who
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: can you time with and maybe get another prospect or
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: something along those lines. So it'll be interesting on how
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: it comes about for him to not be on this roster,
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: whether it's something that they just have to DFA him
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: or if they can at least get something back from somebody.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: So I'm hoping for Cardinals to get something back for
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: him because he's still only 26 years old. He still
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: has 25 to 30 home run power at second and
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: third base positions. So he's definitely valuable. It's just finding
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: the spot for him to take off and do the
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: things that we think he's capable of.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we all think the guy can play, so hopefully
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: it works out for him. Kyle, do you have a
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: guy who we won't see with the Cardinals this season?
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: I think you're going to see some bullpen turnover probably.
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: I think it's probably the most fluctuating spot on a
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: roster overall. And this is just guys in the big leagues, right?
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: There's going to be guys who, you know, have never
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: debuted possibly that are on the 40-man that will, you know,
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: not be with the team, whether it's DFA or trade.
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: But I don't necessarily know which guys out there in
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: the bullpen, but, you know, I think Stanek was good
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: for the bullpen, you know, by all accounts. I think there's,
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: you know, you're going to have to have some veteran
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: leadership down there. It'll be interesting if, you know, they
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: use this offseason to maybe trade O'Brien and all 29
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: other teams are kind of in the mix right now.
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: We're at the deadline. You've only got the playoff team.
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: He has just as much value now as he did
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: at the deadline. I think you're going to see some
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: turnover down in the bullpen because I think whether it's
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: Graceffo going back and forth or some of these other
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: prospects that need to get some work and can be
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: a swingman, you're going to have to have spots opened
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: up for that.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Kyle didn't want to say it, but He threw Stanek
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: out there. He also threw O'Brien out there. For Stanek,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: so I'm going to go with Stanek. Stanek is 35.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: He pitched really well last year. His first month, I
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: think he had an ERA of 8, and it took
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: a while for that number to come down. He can
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: still strike guys out, right? He still had, what, 65
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: strikeouts and 62 and two-thirds innings. But there's an option
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: on Stanek that would cost the Cardinals $ 6 million. So, Lance,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: the question is, do the Cardinals think that money can
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: be better used elsewhere as they rebuild?
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the question is, no, I don't think
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: they pick up that $ 6 million option because he's a
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: guy that's going to go to free agency and get
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: one for three to four. It's kind of what he's
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: been getting every year. So if you can turn around
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: and turn that back into a three and a half
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: number for their bullpen, that's a great number. I think
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: six is probably a little too high for him. Um,
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: cause you're looking at eight to 10 kind of gets
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: you that no doubt, um, like eighth inning guy. Um,
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: so they would rather use that six, I think, to
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: get that if they're going to compete or not.
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: But if you're, you're.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Still going to need numbers down there, you're still going
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: to need arms and you're still going to need some
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: guys who that, you know, that can win the games
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: you're supposed to win. And he can do that. And
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: his number is going to be around three, three and
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: a half. So if they can get him to do that,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: then great. But I don't think they pick it up,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: pick up his option at six.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Do you have a guy who you sense might not
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: be back, Lance?
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: No, I mean, the obvious is we're talking about him
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: because age and or they've kind of positioned themselves out
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: of their runway. I've got two guys that if they're
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: not going to go for it now, and I think
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Palante and Libby are getting to that point in arbitration.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: They've got to make a decision on are they going
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: to be here for more than the two years of
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: arbitration that are left available, or do we sell them
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: while they're relatively young? Andre's coming off a career year,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: and he's going to be 29 next year and stuff
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: like that. so those are the two guys I'd be
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: interested in because of they're getting up there in the
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: arbitration numbers that are hey if we're not going to
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: spend money to go for it do we want to
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: spend that 6 to 8 million dollars a range or
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: do we want to go get something for them while
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: we can while they're young and under control because their
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: trade value is probably at an all time high especially
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: with Dre so that's my I wouldn't be surprised if
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: they capitalize on his season.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: I did not see that coming. What do you think
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: of that, Kyle? What do you think about the possibility
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: of Palante? Because it is true. If you're going to sell,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: you sell high.
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I agree. And I think starting pitchers
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: that have good numbers and throw the ball well at
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: this point, each platform here makes a huge difference. he's
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: going to get a much bigger raise this year than
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: he did last year. Um, and it really is.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: Just a question.
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: I think the CBA is really going to, um, create
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: some interesting conversations here. Um, I don't think there's any
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: way a deal or a settlement gets done with Dre
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: before December 2nd. Um, then we kind of depend on,
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: you know, when the CBA gets done. Um, teams love
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: cost certainty, Jim. They love cost certainty. And if they
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: know Dre's number, um, before trading for him, I think
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: it helps them a lot. If they trade before he
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: goes to arbitration and they have no idea where he's
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: filing and no idea where the Cardinals are playing, well,
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: they'll know where the Cardinals are probably going to file because, uh, communicate.
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: But I just don't see that trade happening, uh, until
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: arbitration is set more than likely. Um, But I don't
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: think Lance is wrong. I think, you know, Dre, if
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: you have a good defense, knowing that he's not a
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: strikeout pitcher, if you have a good infield defense that
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: is going to support Dre like the Cardinals did this year,
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: then those numbers right there are what you're going to
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: get and possibly even a little bit better if some
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: of the ground balls that go through the hole this year,
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: you know, are fielded and are right at the position player. So,
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: and if he keeps limiting walks, you know, that's where
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: his ceiling can go up as well.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: I think Palante's a great fit for the Cardinals based
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: on the fact that up the middle.
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: I keep him.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Up the middle.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying get rid of him, but I wouldn't
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: be surprised if they try to capitalize on him if
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: they don't see him being the guy who takes him
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: into the next phase.
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: Correct.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Those are our three. I'm going to throw out a
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: couple more names and see what you think. So the
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Cardinals need to shore up other positions, right? And as
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Lance points out, they need some roster cleanup. So to me,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: a guy like Jimmy Crooks, who is a really, really
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: good prospect, right?
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: He's your biggest disappointment from last year.
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: You're trying to ship him out too now, huh?
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: No, I'm not trying to.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: Hear me out.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: So he went back to AAA and started hitting like crazy,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: showing the power. This is a guy who has a
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: really good throwing arm. The Cardinals absolutely love the way
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: he prepares with his pitchers. There's an element of leadership.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: The problem is there's sort of a traffic jam behind
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: the plate with Herrera possibly getting still some work behind
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: the plate, Bernal and Pahez. And there's other prospects that
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: the Cardinals have, too, that are really good catching prospects.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: So the question is, if you are going to be
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: making deals to show up other positions, is Crooks one
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: of those guys? Again, not because he isn't good, but
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: because he is good. and other teams are going to
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: want them. Do you think that's a possibility, Kyle?
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think a catching prospect that can hit and
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: catch is an amazing wealth to have. And we've talked
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: about the Cardinals with their catchers and the number they have.
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: I think they're in a good spot if they can
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: find the right team that needs a left-handed catcher or
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: a left-handed hitting catcher, excuse me. Because, yeah, I think
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: he's somebody that you're probably looking to move at this point.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: I don't even know why I said it that way.
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: I don't know why you would necessarily look to move him.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: The only reason you're going to make that kind of
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: move probably is if you definitely see Yvonne staying behind
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: the plate and you are wanting Pedro to be your
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: third catcher For sure, right? Because they have other catching
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: prospects coming.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: Up as well.
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: So the more you see Yvonne playing first base, and
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: depending on how you change this roster around a little bit,
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: because I think there's a lot of flexibility here with
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: where these guys could play, then Jimmy Crooks probably stays.
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: But Jimmy Crooks can be a guy that gets you
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: a controllable starting pitcher. And I love being on the
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: side of the trade that trades a position player away.
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: and gets a good starting pitcher.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: So, again, if you're looking at your assets that you
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: have to deal, right, they have a lot of catchers.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Crooks is really good. And, by the way, Herrera on
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Cardinal territory where you guys were away said he wants
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: to catch, and his goal this offseason is to fix
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: his throwing problem. He admits he do have one guy,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: one base dealer, and he believes he can fix that.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: because he wants to catch. So that kind of may
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: determine where the Cardinals are with letting him get a
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: little bit more opportunity to catch, how they handle a
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: guy like Crooks. What do you think, Lance? What do
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: you think is going to happen there?
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: I think he's the guy that gets you that young
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: potential ace in a package. And I think you look
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: at where they're at roster-wise, I think there's three catchers
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: that um, are ahead of him technically, um, on the
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: roster with Leo, uh, Pedro and Herrera. So I think
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: if he gets you the guy that you can slot
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: in as your number two with upside of being an ace,
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: you have to look at that, what it looks like.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: And like we said, they have some prospects, they have
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: some things that are going to be able to push
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: for that guy. And he's a good hitting young catcher
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: gets you a lot on the, uh, on the trade market.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: It's a, it's a lot of currency and other organizations
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: that they'll be willing to, to look at. So I
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: think that's a kind of a no doubter. If you're
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: looking at what we call cost control, if you can
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: get a young ace that's in the, not in the
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: free agent market money, and you can get him, that
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: goes a long way with what they, with the other
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: catchers they have. Um, so that, I mean, I think
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: it's a, it's a no brainer if it's, if it's there. Um,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: and it gives, kind of that log jam gets it
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: out of your way, and then you can also have
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: the next guy that's coming because they still have a
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: couple more guys that are in that system that look
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: good on the catching thing. So use it while you
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: can because he's 25 too. We're not talking like he's 22.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: He's 25. This is probably his prime peak tradeability. So
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: use it before you lose it.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Use it before you lose it. I like that.
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  Speaker 3: You're watching.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: I've never heard that. cardinal territory on the foul territory
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: network quick break here we'll come back with.
• 17:31
  Speaker 6: More aj in this postseason there is a chance for
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• 18:32
  Speaker 1: So we've been talking about the possibility of the Cardinals
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: trading some guys that are currently on the roster, uh,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: just because they're in a rebuild. And, uh, if you have, uh,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of one thing, you deal it. And, uh,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: You trade it while you can, as Lance said, because
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: you have other holes that you've got to fill. My
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: question to you, and I'll start with you, Kyle, is
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: so you have the labor situation ongoing, but you have
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: the Cardinals in a rebuild. Early going, when we hit
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: the months ahead, are we going to see the Cardinals
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: start to make moves, or do you think everyone is
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: going to wait and see what's going on with the
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: labor situation? Do you think that's going to have a
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: huge impact?
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: Uh, I think the Cardinals, any trade that they're going
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: to do, I think they would love to get it done, um, beforehand. Uh,
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: so that those guys can at least onboard with the
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: new organization and, you know, be able to talk to
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: who they're going to talk to because once they lock
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: the players out, uh, December 2nd, um, you know, they're,
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: they're not going to be able to talk to those players.
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: They're not going to be working out and not going
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: to be game playing nothing. So I think the trades
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: will happen before. I think there's going to be some
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: free agent signings. Um, Because here's where the owners have
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: the upper hand is they know on their side what
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: they're going to be willing to give up money wise
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: to the players. So they probably already know. We'll assume
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: they're not going to go hold for a salary cap, right?
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: Because I think that's a bad decision on their part.
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: If they know they're not going to hold for a
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: salary cap, the players don't know that. Then they can
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: plan accordingly in the month of November leading up. So
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: they have a little bit of an advantage there, but
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: I see the slam dunk free agents being assigned, and
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: I think a team like the Cardinals will get those
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: trades out of the way because then I think on
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: the backside, that CBA, a team going through a rebuild,
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: probably wants to know what the CBA is going to
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: look like going forward before they start planning out their future.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: I think they're probably going.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: To wait a little bit.
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: What do you think, Lance? Yeah.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to go back to the last lockout, right?
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of signings before that. I think
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: people weren't expecting, we were expecting kind of a, Hey,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: this is going to be, um, something that no one
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: will sign for. So I think these owners, if they
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: know what their, what their, what their point is and
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: what they're going for, you're going to see them try
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: to do cost control and or deals right away that
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: kind of get grandfathered in. Um, to the new CBA
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: because they were done before it. Um, I think you're
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: looking at if a lot of things change, you can't
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: just tell teams they have to dismantle their team because
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: there's a salary gap.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: They have to have a way to do that.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: So if these, you're going to might see some owners
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: that just go out and spend big quick. So those
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: numbers are on the books and they're, they're grandfathered in, um,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: to say, and if they know that they, if they
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: have to get the things they want, or maybe an
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: arbitration year goes away for a play or something like that.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: And if they know that's going to happen, maybe they
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: sell a guy a year earlier or something like that.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: So I think there could be some weird willings and
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: dealings come November just to see, um, what team's going
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: to go for it. And they're going to get things
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: locked in before the lockout hits and they know what
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: they have afterwards. And then they can see where, where
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: guys kind of panic and want to sign at the
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: very last second. So, the last lockout guys signed before
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: the lockout, um, surprisingly. So I could see that happening
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: again for, for owners wanting to lock that in. So
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: they know what they got coming out of the, the lockout.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: Gotcha.
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: The two big players left out there though. There were
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: two big players left out that, that did hold out
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: and it was Schwarber and Castellanos and they ended up
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: both on the Philly. So, I mean, I think, I
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: think there's going to be players like that, um, who are,
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: you know, looking for the bigger contracts, um, And I
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: think teams are going to, are going to hold off.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: If teams are willing to give a floor, then I
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: think you might see some of these lower salary teams, um,
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: step up beforehand. Um, but maybe more with extensions versus anything.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: That's the other thing.
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: Who knows how many extensions are going to be given
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: away in November. And then MLB can say, yeah, but
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: look at all the money. These things are willing to,
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: you know, throw a players and they're really setting, you know,
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: these young guys up and, um, then they might try
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: to use that and say, oh, well, we just gave
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: you this extension. We can't pay you unless you sign
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: a CBA. There's a lot of leverage posturing that's probably
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: going to happen.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: And when you think about extensions, extensions are young players
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: with a lot of years on the deal. So, like
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: I said, those are the contracts that get grandfathered in.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: These guys who have signed 10-year deals, and if there's
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: a cap system and there's a max years and numbers
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: they can give you, next thing you know, they've got
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: a guy like JJ. They've got him for 8 to
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: 10 years. But in the new system, if there's a
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: cap and they can be a free agent after four,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: these guys aren't going to sign these deals to give
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: up all these free agent years. So you might want
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: to grab a young guy now and then that contract
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: gets grandfathered in because he could be out of, you know,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: this could be not allowed because the max contract might
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: only be four to five years if they go based
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: off of.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: Other current.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Major, like the NFL and the NBA have max years
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: in money. and that's usually how those cap systems work.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: So grandfather in a Jordan Walker for 10 years, and
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: you can't do anything about it because he falls under
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: the old CBA, that contracts grandfathered in could be a
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: good idea for the Cardinals.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: All right, last thing, then I'll let you guys roll.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: Give me one thing, and I'll start with you on this, Kyle.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: One thing that the biggest need, in your opinion, now
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: we understand where the holes are, we've talked about it,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: but the number one thing, if you're suddenly saying, advising Heimblum.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: They got to take care of this. What should they add?
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: What's the number one thing?
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: Man, that's a tough one. I think it just depends
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: on what their goal is here. That's probably, I mean,
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: they already have this, so it would be a silly
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: question to say, what is your goal for next year?
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: They know already what they're going to do. If their
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: goal is to take a step forward and try to
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: set This team up for a chance to make the playoffs.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: Then.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: I think they probably need some outfield offense. To be
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: shored up. I don't know how they're going to go
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: about that. But I think that'll be one spot.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: It's either.
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: Or third base. One of those positions needs to produce
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: some offense in my mind. I think we already talked
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: about starting pitching. And maybe Lance will go there.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: But.
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: I think either one of those outfield positions that's not
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: right field, obviously, or third base needs to provide some
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: thump for this lineup to be really dangerous. Unless Bernal.
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: I mean, Bernal maybe adds that thump, and then maybe
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: you don't have to worry about it as much. But
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: that would probably.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: Be my suggestion.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: No, he wants thump. He didn't specify where, but he
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: wants a guy who can bang a little bit.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Who's the bias kid that hit? what, 30 home runs
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: in double-A and all that, and played shortstop? The question
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: that I have... Yes, the question that I have is,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: can he play third or center field?
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: I need to know that right now. I need to
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: know what.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Well, if he can play third and he was a shortstop,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: he can play center field. That's my opinion. And if
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: you have a right-handed power-hitting center fielder, that would be great.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: I think you have more options that can cover.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: third, then maybe center field.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: But if you can get, yeah, say that, but if
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: church is going to be your center fielder with, uh,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: bias doing what, you know, he was capable of doing
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: in AAA and the big league levels and the left field,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: then he's your third man, baby, he's your third.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Baseman next year.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: So, um, I think that, you know, if you, we
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: all know this, if you want to win the games,
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: you're supposed to, you need back in bullpen help. I
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: think they need to back in, um, bullpen guys that
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: can win the ball game when they were supposed to
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: win it to go with with Riley and then everybody
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: else can kind of slot in, um, where you don't
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: have to put too much high leverage on some of
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: the other guys and they can do what, uh, what
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: you need to, and then go from there. So I
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: think two back in bullpen arms that can do leverage
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: that can, you know, maybe close some games and stuff
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: like that are the no doubters. And then I think
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: from within, they have some interesting pieces offensively to, to
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: cover some things that I would, I kind of want
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: to see, um, I think they'd get away with it
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: if they can pitch, um, we've shown this last year,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: if they can pitch at a high level, they have
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: great defense because they're young and they like defense, then
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: you win the games at the back end. They could
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: easily be a 84 to 87 win team next year
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: with what they got by adding two, I'd say two
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: back end relievers and a starter. The starter that you
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: could say, hey, here's my opening day starter. You need
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: an opening day type of starter. That's what you need
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: to get this offseason, not another mid-rotation guy because they
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: have mid-rotation cover. They need a top-of-the-line starter at two
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: back-end bullpens, and then the offense and defense that is
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: there can win games because you're seeing that kind of
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: what Milwaukee does.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Fixing the bullpen, a lot easier and probably cheaper than
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: finding a number-one starter guy. All of it would help.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Preventing runs is.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: Always cheaper than scoring runs, Jim.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: That's just how it is.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: And if I, so in our little shopping basket, like
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: if it's Amazon, if I look at our cart, we
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: have a thumper, guy who can hit, starting pitcher, and
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: bullpen help, right?
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: See the cheapest center.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Fielder or third baseman on the market, get him for
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: some thump, and then, you know, trade for a starter
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: and sign a couple of relievers for 8 to 10.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Let's go win 87 games and get a wild card swap.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: There you go.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: And then we'll just check the front door to see
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: when they're delivered because the Amazon truck will pull up
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: and drop those at our doorstep. Gentlemen, good stuff. Thank
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: you for your time today. That's going to do it
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: for this edition of Cardinal Territory. We'll see you next time.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Hopefully that episode won't suck.