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Reflections from Ministry with Refugees in Texas · Centrally Speaking

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Centrally speaking, it's the central Swinfellow Church's podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: It speaks about issues that would be of interest to our society.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: In particular, it addresses how a Christian worldview intersects with Western secular culture.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: In the spirit of the church's founder, we take the perspective of the middle way, which is in agreement with the historic Christian church.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: Drake Williams, Minister of Mission and Theology of the Church.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: Our website is www.cstfamily.org.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: On today's show, we're talking about reflections from ministry with refugees in Texas.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: And we're very pleased to have Reverend Dr.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: Henry Baldwin join us to talk about his time serving amongst refugees on the Mexico-Texas border.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Henry was born and raised in the San Joaquin Valley in California.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: He attended the U.S.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: Naval Academy and graduated from there, and then went on to serve for five years in the submarine force in the U.S.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: Navy.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: He then married Shirley, who was his wife for 37 years.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Together they went on to serve with the Navigators in the military in Germany.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then he returned to the States to complete an MA at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia, and then completed his PhD degree in New Testament Studies at Trinity University in Chicago.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: Upon graduation, Baldwins were off to Singapore, where they served in Southeast Asia for a number of years, and then went on to serve at Tyndale Theological Seminary in the Netherlands, where Henry served as executive vice president as well as professor of New Testament.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: While there, he also served for five years as warden at Christchurch in Amsterdam.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: In 2010, the Baldwins returned to the States, serving with the Anglican School of Ministry in Little Rock, Arkansas.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: In 2013, he was elected to serve as dean and senior pastor of Holy Cross Anglican Church in Loganville, Georgia.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: After a time of ministry there, Henry retired from full-time parish ministry, but then has been working since 2019 with Trinity on the Border, ministering to refugees and immigrants to America.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: He has also served as a hospital chaplain in the cross-cultural setting of the lower Rio Gran Valley, Texas, at the Matamoris camp, which is just outside of Brownsville, Texas.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: Henry, we're very glad to have you on the show.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for joining us.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, good morning.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder if you could tell us about your work on the Texas-Mexico border.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: How did you get involved with working with refugees there after spending so much time with educational ministry as well as parish ministry?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: What took you to the Brownsville area to work with refugees?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I had just retired in uh 2019 and then uh did a short stint back at Tyndale in the Netherlands, where I was a fill-in teacher for a few months.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I was from an Anglican background, and I found out that there was an Anglican mission in Texas that was, among other things that it was doing, was working with refugees.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I went down to join them in August of 2019 to be part of that work.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And at first, our work was with refugee folks on the US side of the border.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then later, when President Trump changed the rules on refugees, we began to minister in a refugee camp that actually had sprung up in Matamoro City, which is on the Mexican side of the border across from Brownsville.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: And how many people were you working with in this Anglican mission there?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, within the mission, uh, my colleagues, there was about eight of us or so.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And once the camp got established, there were various estimates.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody actually didn't a real census, but there are various estimates from 1,500 to as many as 2,500 people, men, women, and children in the camp.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: So eight of you working with up to 1,500 to 2,500 people.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: In various ways, yes.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Can you tell us what countries these refugees were coming from?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: For the most part, they were from Central America.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: There were a few from Africa and then an even scanter few from Eastern Europe that came in through Mexico and attempted to cross from the south side of the border.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: And how many refugee camps were generally in that area along the Texas border?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: There was a camp, I would say about every 60 miles along the border, there was a camp that was sprung up from Texas all the way to Tijuana, Mexico.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: With about the same number of people in each camp, or I can't I can't uh address myself to that.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know how many there were.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Can you give our listeners a picture of what refugees look like as they cross the border to Texas?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it might be helpful to make some distinctions before we go any farther.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot of confusion about that.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's worthwhile to know that there's probably three ways that a person might come to America apart from being a tourist or a traveler.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: One way, and this is kind of often what we think of with quote unquote illegal immigration, one way we would be simply to sneak across the border or to be smuggled in like contraband goods.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And this, of course, is and should be illegal because these are often the folks that we refer to as undocumented aliens.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: In an attempt to minister to such folks, the only way that one really could minister to such people would be to run some sort of underground railroad arrangement of some kind.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that would be illegal and would place the very people that were trying to help in grave danger.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And would probably also bring those of us who are doing the ministry in contact with some really bad underworld types.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: These types really seek to exploit the people that supposedly they're helping.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you may have heard the word coyotes coyotes.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And really, from my perspective, no Christian should have anything to do with coyotes.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're often part of the cartels and drug running and human trafficking.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if only for the sake of the poor people who they exploit, we really need law enforcement to do all that is possible to make this kind of illegal entry as difficult as can be.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that'd be the first time.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's a second group of people who are attempting immigration via the application process and seeking a visa.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And these could come as students seeking multi-year or even permanent residency in the US.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: From what I know about this with respect to the USA, this is a very difficult and lengthy process.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Folks who have advanced degrees and lots of higher education can find the process even arcane and resistant.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, I suppose, Drake, we could have all kinds of discussions about this.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is this kind of immigration good for the economy?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is it bad?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Is it neutral?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I'd just say personally, as one who sought to work overseas for a few years, I've seen countries that do this kind of immigration issue of visa.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen some countries do it very well and very efficiently, and then you do your work and then you go on your way.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then I've been in countries whose policies seem to be more driven by fear and xenophobia than even what is in the best economic interest of the country, it seems to me.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: But again, this was not the group of immigrants that we were working with.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: Although, as you know, in the states, there are many people who are seeking to work with this group of immigrants who have foreign student ministries and such like.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: The third group of people seeking entry in the states were the group of people I was working with.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And these people who have come to the USA seeking asylum status.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: That is to say, they are truly refugees.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it should be noted that they're not making an illegal entry into the country, even though they do not have a piece of paperwork.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: They come to our borders openly and they meet with officials and they make their case that necessity requires them to find a safe haven in the U.S.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: According to the U.S.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: laws, the U.S.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: has rules that provide for exception to our own immigration laws and immigration quotas for those people who cannot stay at home because of persecution, whether religious or criminal or because of disasters and this kind of thing.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the three kinds of people that are coming across.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the people we were working with was this third group of people, and basically they came to seek entry through a legitimate port of entry.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Most of them did not have a penny, not so much as a dollar in their jeans.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, as you're talking about these different categories, and I think that's helpful as uh in the news, we're not hearing these types of categories, but some who have tried to interpret the refugee crisis have said, are these truly refugees?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: Are they economic refugees?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: Are these refugees from wars or let's say natural disasters?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: Could you add that into your classification of people at all?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is sort of all the above.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: With respect to the people that I met every day, everyone understands that if you're going to come and make a plea for asylum, you have to tell the story that you are in danger and there's a crisis.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: But in fact, the vast majority of people that I met and listened to their stories, there were some that were clearly persecuted by the cartels.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: There were some people there that had some very bad people after them.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Of the people I met, the vast majority were, I would call an economic migrant.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: They were looking for a better life for their family, for their children.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you can't blame them a bit for that, because that's what we all do, right?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: We all seek a better life for our children and our family.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: So this category that you say those seeking asylum that you were working with, what happens to that group when they reach American soil?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's kind of an interesting story, and that's that I think is what's tied in very closely with quote unquote the crisis that we see in the news.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: For the process to occur legally, so that the refugee does not become an illegal alien who needs to be deported by law.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: The way this works is, according to U.S.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: law, if I can step onto U.S.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: soil and report to an immigration official, I can at that time ask for asylum status.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm legally entitled if I can step across the border.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: So most people doing this, and certainly all the people we were working with, simply came to a border crossing with an immigration facility.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And when they came to their turn in line, they said, I don't have a visa, but I'm seeking asylum.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the law is set up in such a way that that person then is issued what's called a notice to appear.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it appoints a time and a date in writing, usually within seven to ten days, in which a person who is claiming refugee status must appear before a federal magistrate for a first hearing as to the general merits of the claim of being a true refugee, having a true need to be called an asylum seeker.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if that refugee has a sponsor in the US who can vouch for them, the refugee then is sent at the sponsor's cost to wherever the sponsor is in the USA.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Upon arrival at the sponsor, you can actually make a call and say, I need to change my notice to appear.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be down here in Texas, it's going to be wherever Washington, D.C.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: or Washington State, or upstate New York or somewhere.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I need to change the date of my appearance before the federal magistrate.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: The system is not bad and it's fair, but this is where it starts to break down.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: The notice to appear came to be jokingly called the notice to disappear because the way it was running at the time, 90% of those who had a notice to appear just failed to appear.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: They came in, they went to their sponsor, and they disappeared.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And at this point, the refugee has become, I would call, semi-legal, not undocumented, but sort of semi-legal.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And what happened has been happening is that there's far, far too many folks for officials to go find them to seek them out and say, where have you been?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: So the only way that the situation changes is might be at a police stop or some other way they're found out and then they go to the magistrate.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And if their case was good and they find a sympathetic magistrate, then they still will get a second hearing and then a third hearing to achieve their final status as a asylum seeker, approved, and then if not, then they get deported back to the country they came from.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Legally, the system ought to work well if everybody is straightforward and follows the rules they're supposed to do.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: But where the system starts to break down is for people that don't have a sponsor.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you do with those folks?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Those folks go to a detention facility, and that's when things become a bit of a mess.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: When I first came down to Texas, my job was to help folks with a sponsor to feed them and to house them for 48 hours and then get them to the plane or to the bus.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone claiming asylum, a refugee could produce an address, it was not verified by the INS or Border Patrol.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: There are just far too many people for them to do that.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: They simply said, okay, you have an address of a so-and-so sponsor, and then they would put them out the front door of the facility with the Buena Suerte.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Hope things go well for you.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a very difficult situation because a lot of people didn't speak English, and the facility where people were taken when they claimed asylum status to get their notice to appear for us was out in the middle of nowhere.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was five miles from anything.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: So here's this family, and they're out the front door.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And even if they legitimately have a sponsor, how do we get them there?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the point where folks like Catholic charities and the Anglicans that I were working with were stepping in to help these folks who at that moment were completely legal, to take care of them, to contact their sponsor, to get their sponsor to pay for a ticket, to feed them for a few days, to give them the supplies they need, to help them navigate, particularly a lot of folks who didn't speak any English whatsoever, navigate the local situation, get them on a bus or an airplane where their sponsor could pick them up at the other end.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And at one point, we were actually doing this with about 80, some days as many as 200 people per day.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that would include the three southernmost points of entry there in Texas.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that gives you an idea of the scope of how big this situation was.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you multiply that by 10 or 20, there were days when you had as many as 4,000 people come through with a notice, receive the notice to appear and then go somewhere in the state.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just thinking it must be exhausting having to first, and these are just those who have sponsors, right?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just doing a little math from what you said earlier.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: And there are eight of you with 2,500 people.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean, you're if you're dispersing, let's say 40 a day, I mean that that's that's a lot of people do.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we were not doing this all on our own.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: We were doing it together in concert with a couple of other organizations.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: One, a local Brownsville organization, the other one is a well-known called Catholic Charities.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: They're doing very fine work helping refugees.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, the Catholic charities had a very large center in McAllen, very near Brownsville, where we would pick up people from the front door of the immigration facility and take them there.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea was in 24 hours to be able to move them to the airport and so forth.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the number of people that we had involved working that 80 to 200 was probably in the neighborhood of 30 to 40 on a daily basis.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: But still a lot of people to move.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, that was it was a lot of people to move.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was hot, tiring work.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: We were in an old crowded school, had eight-foot ceilings, no air conditioning.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: It was pretty rough.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: The situation changed when the Trump administration said, there are too many notices that disappear going on here.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're not getting the response that we ought to from the system.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: So they simply said, No, we're not going to do this anymore.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to get a notice to appear.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to stay on the Mexican side of the border until you appear on a video conference with a magistrate.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll stay there and you'll have your initial one, you'll have your second one, and then you'll have your third one.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if we do not adjudicate that you are truly a refugee, you're not coming to the US at all.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's when this refugee camp that began to spring up that we've worked in, because the ministry went from a ministry of dispersal and helping people get somewhere else to a ministry of feeding people, helping to house them, seeing they had water and showers and all that in a classic refugee camp.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: While this dispersal is going on, are children being separated from parents from your experience?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, families were held together.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: This children's separation thing happened then for people who did not have a sponsor.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if you showed up and had nowhere to go, the INS was not going to push you out the front door of the facility.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: But their facilities are fairly small and they have everyone living in this large space.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when the concern becomes we can't let children run around among all these otherwise unknown adults of not relatives, don't know why they're here.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the problem became if you don't have a sponsor, then we have to house you in some way.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then the housing thing is incredibly difficult because technically, at that point, no one's done anything illegal.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't put people in jail.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: They haven't done anything illegal.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: But on the other hand, how do you take care of all these families?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: How do you police them?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: How do you mean because there's some bad actors in there?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a response to child trafficking.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: You mentioned the school building with eight-foot ceilings and people crammed into there.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: Can you give us an idea as to what conditions were like at the um Mount of Morris camp near Brownsville and and maybe other refugees camps that you visited?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, the camp was uh strictly ad hoc.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: It developed because the day they said, I'm sorry, here's your notice to appear, and your notice appear keeps you on the south side of the border, not on the north side of the border until you appear once, twice, or three times before the magistrate.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: People actually set up their tents as close to the bridge across the Rio Grande as they could get it, which is sort of the downtown front door, supposed to be the pretty face of Matamoros.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the camp just sort of took over the center part of Matamoros, which was typically, you know, where the tourist would come across to shop.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that did not create any particular love on the part of the Matamorans who were trying to run the tourist business because at that point then people didn't want to go down into the camp.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: What it was was just this mass of tents, ad hoc spread out everywhere.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Later they were started figuring out ways to get porta potties in there and water and supplies.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And for the next few months, what we did was build wash stations and showers and cooking facilities.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And by the end of it, they had actually become reasonably civilized.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So by the end of the time, there was a doctor there every day at the little clinic.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: There was a little school going on for the children.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: There was Kitchen of the World had come and was cooking for people every day, although people continued to want to cook for themselves.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: There was a hot meal available for everyone.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone was in a tent.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then ultimately, the city of Matamoros actually put up a huge marquee over the top of people's tents.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: So at the end of the time, I would say it was an acceptable situation for U.S.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Army field exercise, something like that, but not at the beginning.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: How long are people staying in the camp on average?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Oh goodness.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Some people ended up in the camp for months and months and months.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: So at first, when there was just a few, you'd get a notice to appear, would be a few days out, and you could have a video interview with a magistrate right away.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then as more and more people came and the size of the camp swelled, the first initial meeting with the magistrate over the video was like three months out.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Then, if the judge said, okay, you do have a reasonable case, now go get all the details together.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: You could be there six, seven, eight, nine months.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, besides all of your caretaking of those in the refugee camp and dispersing those to proper destinations, I'm sure you had some time to do some counseling with refugees.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering if you might be able to share what were some of the topics that you discussed with them and if you found a Christian message making a difference.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we had several different kinds of counseling.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: We had some people there, we had medical counselors, doctors without borders set up a clinic.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think it should be noted that if you came from a small village in Guatemala, you had more access to medical care in that camp than you would have had in your own village in Guatemala, for example.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we had medical counselors, we had legal counselors to help people with their case, and then there was some low-level education for some of the children.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Mostly what I was doing was there to bring the Christian message.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think with respect to that, it was kind of interesting, Drake.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: There was a couple of distinct responses.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: On the one hand, I was astonished at how many folks were resistant to the message of Christian hope.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: One would think that you're living in a refugee camp and barely getting by at the subsistence level, and a person offers to pray for your success and offers coffee and sweets and an opportunity for your kids to have a little playtime.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: But in fact, there were really far more no's than a dónde, aquara, where?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: What hour?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want us to show up?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, the danger of the journey and the many, many encounters people had along the way with unscrupulous exploiters, I'm sure, played a part in the negative responses.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, there were people of faith for whom the opportunity to come to a safe space and hear the word of encouragement and have some toys for the little ones to play with.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: For them, it was hugely encouraging.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we found after a number of visits, a community of believers was actually established within the camp that came to identify themselves as us.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: We were the church here, as believers known to each other and actually living in community with one another and banded together for self-help and mutual encouragement.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually, when the COVID restrictions set by the Mexican government closed the camp to outsiders, we had raised up leadership within that camp and they became like the pastors to their fellow refugees.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: So almost a small church forming within these camps.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, once the camp started, that uh we were specifically invited on behalf of there was one organization who became the clearing house for the various people, Doctors Without Borders, the Catholic charities, and so forth.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's one organization that became the clearinghouse, and that we were specifically asked to would you undertake spiritual care and nourishment for the camp?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: So these small church services would would form on a Sunday.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_03: Assume you had a chance to preach at some of these.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we did our work on Wednesdays.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: There was a couple local pastors that we deferred to who were part of the team, so we deferred to them on Sundays.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Our work was in the middle of the week.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, my Spanish is bad enough that I can struggle through.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Working in these types of conditions must have been very draining.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: Wondering if you might have some thoughts that help to motivate you for that type of service, and particularly if there are any scripture texts that might be of value for our listeners.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's a great question.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think I was very motivated, as was the minister who actually started this Anglican work there along the border, by the thought that we could be there as representatives for the whole of our denomination to our brothers and sisters.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: They are our brothers and sisters who are seeking a better life for their family, and kind of got caught up in this perfect storm of events.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think something that was very, very motivational for me was to think about the great day, you know, the day of judgment.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: I could sort of imagine hearing Jesus' voice saying to us, Well, you Anglicans, you talk a lot about true religion and the right way to be a believer.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: But what did you do for the least of these, my brother?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I brought them right here to your doorstep.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Did you see their urgent needs?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Did you find any time for them?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that thought made me think, I'm glad on behalf of all of us that I can be doing this work.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's the right time in my life.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: I have the freedom and opportunity to be there.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that motivated me to think this is really worth the doing.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose one of the key scripture passages there was Matthew 25, 31.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Drake, I unreservedly believe that we're saved by grace through faith alone.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think that C.S.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Lewis portrayed it quite well.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Remember in the Chronicles of Narnia, after the final battle, Aslan ends up having words with Peter and Lucy and Edward.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think he'll have words with us too to say, so what have you done with the grace that I've given you?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for our listeners, Matthew 25, 31 through 46, this discussion that the Lord has with the sheep and the goats.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: After the least of these brothers of mine.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: Any other scripture texts that kept you going aside from that?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Being a believer and since hanging around with the navigators in my earliest days, just daily having a quiet time was always pretty important for me to spend time in the scripture each and every day.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: The word is ever new and ever fresh, and it's that strength that we need to make through each day.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully, we're never too busy to spend at least a few minutes every day with the Lord because that reorients us and gives us fresh strength and reminds us that we're not doing this in our own strength.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: Well, most of us live at a distance from refugees, and we know that there's a problem, and we appreciate someone like yourself sharing with us some of the realities on the ground there in Texas.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: But for those of us who live at a distance, can you give us a few things that we might be able to do to help look after the least of these brothers of mine?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, at first you sort of think, well, this refugee and immigrant thing is somebody else's problem.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, refugees and immigrants are being resettled all over this country.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just an urban thing.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: If you live in rural areas, actually, that's where many immigrant communities are being settled.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there's actually, in most places we live, there are lots of people that are busy seeking to help others to help those that are new to our country.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really important because God cares so much for the alien in our midst.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And he reminds the people of Israel over and over again, he said, You are an alien, so be kind and just to those that are aliens among you.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I can think maybe there's a few things that we can do.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: The easiest is simply open our hearts and our wallets.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Give.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Doctors Without Borders and Catholic charities are two extremely effective organizations that I work with.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen the work they do and their level of commitment, and they're certainly well worth a portion of our tithe.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're doing a work based on Matthew 25.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very important for those of us who name the name of Christ.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: And these people are out there representing us.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think a second thing maybe we could do, get online and find out what's happening near you.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it might be surprising to find out how much is actually happening near us.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Just type in your browser, Volunteer Refugee Services Near Me.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Volunteer Refugee Services Near Me and see what comes up.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you can find out what's actually happening in the area, and you can get involved three, four, five hours a week.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's always something that needs to be done from schlepping stuff and packing stuff and whatever to ESL.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: English is a second language.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to be a specialist in a foreign language.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: All you need to do is be able to speak English.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And most ESL programs, you can have a part in them, and you can actually, with a little patience and a little love, help people learn language, and that's a very critical thing.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Through one of these organizations, you might also want to have an immigrant family in your home for dinner.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Some studies were done of people who are newly immigrated to the US.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we're talking about here, we're even talking about completely legal immigration.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: And in five to ten years, they had never once been inside the home of a native of the country they moved to.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty amazing statistic, isn't it?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: An offer to invite a family over to dinner is a way to say, look, you're important to our community, you matter, and a way to witness for Christ.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Say, look, I'm a Christian and I'm praying for your success.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it would be very, very meaningful for most people here who are coming to America.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think the last thing here is can I be controversial, Drake?
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: These are your reflections, please share.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think thirdly, maybe we should be willing to advocate among our friends and our social circles to advocate.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think illegal immigration is not a good thing for anyone.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a good thing for those of us who are already here in the USA and for those who are trying to get here.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Illegal immigration is dangerous and it's susceptible to every kind of crime and vice and it creates an underworld.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: But conversely, there is a place for more refugees and immigrants in the USA.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: I really think so.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: I once lived in the Republic of Singapore.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now that whole country is smaller than the city of Richmond, Virginia.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time I was there, the population was about four million people.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yet they were planning to grow to 5.5 million people over the next few years.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, from my Western perspective, I went to say, well, why it's this is too crowded already.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Why would you do such a thing?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: But with more reflection over time, I think I've come to understand that the answer is people and the work that people bring.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: People are the real source of wealth.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, the book of Proverbs says, in a multitude of people is the glory of a king.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: But without a king, a people is ruined.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: A prince is ruined.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: As you recall from your time in Europe, Europe is experiencing themselves that population growth is essential for prosperity and the future.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think perhaps there's a new way to think about this that says immigration is really not a threat to our current wealth.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, it can be an essential component to prosperity for the future.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: People are not the problem.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Our greed, our acquisitiveness, and our unwillingness to work for policies that benefit all and not just a few here in our country, those are the problems.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: From where I'm sitting, the economy is not a zero-sum game.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: That is, if you win, I lose.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yet on the other hand, it doesn't seem to me that we can just leave everything in America to unregulated free market sources.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think as Christians we can advocate for that, at least not if we believe in Romans 3.23.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: If I can say this maybe a little more pointedly, the answers that we should seek as Christians are not just the pre-packaged ones we're hearing from Republicans or Democrats, right wing or left wing.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Rather, we need to advocate for humanity as a whole, as Christians who know what humanity is.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: People are amazing and glorious and diverse, energetic, and at the same time, they're racked with sin to our very core.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we need economic policies that urge people toward a people-centered future.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: I say be an advocate for the right kind of immigration, not simply a resistor to it, or one that says just open up the doors.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Those are uh searching thoughts that you've just given us on the idea of immigration for our own personal involvement, and then maybe a fresh way to think of the value and the dignity of human beings, whether they be refugees or for that matter, not.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: We're very thankful that you came and shared with us today your reflections on your time serving on the Texas Mexico border and working with refugees.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: We certainly wish you the very best in your ministry in the future.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, Drake.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: All the best to you, sir.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: Lord's blessings to you.