Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Urban Resilience | Miho Mazereeuw | S8 E21
Transcript
- 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:26:11 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this second episode of Archtober. We are here with, Associate Professor in the School of Architecture and Planning at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, more commonly known to as MIT, Miho Mazereeuw. Thank you so much for joining us on Future of XYZ today. 00:00:26:13 - 00:00:29:08 Speaker 2 Thank you for having me. It's really great to be here. 00:00:29:10 - 00:00:54:11 Speaker 1 Well, we're going to talk about something that I think is compelling for a whole bunch of reasons. We're going to be talking about the future of urban resilience. And I've addressed this topic in previous episodes of XYZ from a social lens. And there is this social aspect, but we're really going to be taking it from an environmental lens today in light of the built environment that we are celebrating during Archtober. 00:00:54:13 - 00:01:22:06 Speaker 1 And also as your role as core faculty at the Climate Project at MIT and the director of the Urban Risk Lab, also at MIT. So all of that sums up urban resilience, except for the fact that perhaps our listeners and viewers don't know what it is yet. So as we start every episode of Future of XYZ, Miho, how could you just share for us what the definition and your expertise is of, of urban resilience? 00:01:22:08 - 00:01:46:13 Speaker 2 Yeah. So urban is, it comes from the word urbs, and so is meant to be city, but we really think of it as much broader than that as any accumulation of people living in a system. So whether it's a small town or a big city, we still we still talk about it as an urban urbanism, urban environment. 00:01:46:15 - 00:02:12:16 Speaker 2 And then resilience has become such a popular word that it's used in so many contexts. and then technically, it's meant to be about bouncing back and surviving from shocks and stresses. But again, we try to break that down to really think about, like how how do we approach in ways of increasing resilience in these places that are urban. 00:02:12:16 - 00:02:37:18 Speaker 2 So that's where we take our direction. And whether it is it is about vulnerability, inequity or the actual hazard itself, like how do we how do we, through our tools as designers and planners help increase coping capacity in these areas? That's really how we sort of approach increasing urban resilience. 00:02:37:18 - 00:03:03:19 Speaker 1 It's funny, I hadn't connected the dots at all. I actually it's totally non-sequitur, but I just gave a TEDx talk that released, a few weeks ago, and this subtitle of it is The Future of Resilience. Because of tied to the podcast, Future of, and and resilience, but not having anything to do with climate actually or urbanization, but about our individual resilience. 00:03:03:19 - 00:03:10:15 Speaker 1 So, that's that's an increasing capacity. So that's fascinating. I, I hadn't put it together at all. 00:03:10:17 - 00:03:14:08 Speaker 2 Well please send it to me when it, when it does air because 00:03:14:10 - 00:03:15:19 Speaker 1 I will. It's out so I'll send it to you. 00:03:15:24 - 00:03:18:01 Speaker 2 Oh great. Yeah. Thank you. 00:03:18:03 - 00:03:39:15 Speaker 1 Okay. You trained as an architect and a landscape architect. You did your undergrad first at Wesleyan, here in Connecticut with a bachelor's in environmental science and studio art. So interesting combo. And then you went to Harvard's very famous GSD, the graduate School of Design. and you taught also at the Graduate School of Design before you went over to MIT. 00:03:39:19 - 00:03:52:13 Speaker 1 And you practiced in, in some pretty famous architectural firms as well. I'm curious at what point in your educational or professional journey, climate risk became your focus and why? 00:03:52:15 - 00:04:17:15 Speaker 2 Yeah. So, I should also back up. I can say I'm half Dutch and half Japanese. So growing up, close family friend was on the Dutch water board, and we walked a lot of walks. and he would be always explaining, you know, if we didn't have this infrastructure, this place would flood. And here you see on my home, even the level of the water when it flooded in the past. 00:04:17:15 - 00:04:37:18 Speaker 2 And so I think it's always been kind of in my DNA to, to be thinking about these, things. But really the, the, the tipping point was when I was in college, in 1995, there was this big earthquake in Kobe. So I really actually started from earthquakes and then moved into climate risk. 00:04:37:20 - 00:04:39:04 Speaker 1 In Kobe, Japan. 00:04:39:06 - 00:05:18:09 Speaker 2 Kobe, Japan. Yes. Thank you. and and that was a shock to me to see a city just change, from one event and then the recovery be so long too like, so trying to understand how we can prepare for these kinds of events, knowing that they will eventually happen. And then how does it become both, a social, a technical, a collective effort in, in increasing this resilience and how we can think about it together from many aspects, including design, really became the focus for me. 00:05:18:11 - 00:05:47:23 Speaker 1 It's pretty fascinating because for years, if not decades now, we've been hearing about the risks of climate change to the planet, but especially to our cities, mostly because there's so much hard scaping, but also the density of populations also, sometimes where they're built. But in your professional estimation, is there something about urban areas other than those factors that make them more susceptible to the negative impacts of climate change, specifically? 00:05:48:00 - 00:06:10:05 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I think there are multiple parts to this, right. And I think it's a dense population, but yet many cities then sprawl. And so there's then commute by cars and then pieces that you've already picked up on the impermeable surfaces. And then, you know, when we think about these green house gases, usually it's like 70 to 75% that gets attributed. 00:06:10:05 - 00:06:32:23 Speaker 2 And I think part of it is buildings. So we talk about 40% being attributed to buildings, the construction materials, steel, concrete, but then also the heating, cooling, electricity we use in the operations. And then the other part of that is transportation as well. So I think that, it's it's, it's things that we can do to mitigate that. 00:06:32:23 - 00:07:03:21 Speaker 2 And that's within our profession starting to change. and of course, a lot of work has been done in this already, but more of that. And the other is then how do we understand where the cities are already built and what we can anticipate coming forward in the future? Or even so, there's a there are a lot of cities that are planning out for 2070 or 2080, but I think what I try to remind everybody is like, it doesn't mean it's going to happen. 00:07:03:21 - 00:07:17:22 Speaker 2 Then it could happen this year, next year. And how do we how do we start to, design and plan for those? and the city part is complicated because there are so many people and it's really complex and a lot of these cities. 00:07:17:24 - 00:07:42:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, and what defines a city, which we're not going to get into right now, I think is also interesting. Like I think about what just happened in, in, in Nepal, for instance, right, with the floods. And I mean, those are densely populated, non-urban urban areas. Right. And and that's and a lot of especially what I hate calling it, but third world or developing nations that is still how it kind of evolves in large part. 00:07:42:18 - 00:07:50:23 Speaker 2 Yeah. And then that there's informal settlement in there and it's just it's very, very complex. Yeah. 00:07:51:00 - 00:08:15:23 Speaker 1 For sure. Informal settlement. as one of the core faculty at MIT’s Climate Project, which is, if I've understood it correctly, Miho, it's an institute wide effort to address the world's accelerating climate crisis. What are your top three most immediate concerns and what are those adaptation actions that are being recommended against them? 00:08:16:00 - 00:08:40:16 Speaker 2 yeah. So I think within the climate project, we are thinking of the two sides of the coin. Right. So definitely the mitigation reduction of greenhouse gases. What can we do to to make sure that that continues to happen, but also technological innovation in that. And then the adaptation side, which is the extreme weather events and how, how we live through that. 00:08:40:16 - 00:09:11:22 Speaker 2 So, it's hard to it's hard to narrow it down to three. But let's say starting with one sort of coastal resilience is also very much those two pieces come together when we're talking about nature based solutions. for example, many coastlines, have current nature there. As an example, mangroves and mangroves systems store 3 to 5 times more carbon in the soil, than than tropical rainforests. 00:09:11:22 - 00:09:29:07 Speaker 2 And yet there's urbanization, aquaculture and all kinds of things that are now changing that have been changing that dynamic. So how do we, in those locations find ways to restore them and so that they can also protect the residents on the land side from these kinds of. 00:09:29:09 - 00:09:38:04 Speaker 1 That, because they also are like like oyster beds, right. Like for for anti, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Protective anti-erosion etc.. 00:09:38:06 - 00:10:06:03 Speaker 2 Anti-erosion and they reduce the storm surge. so sort of a win win to to to work. there. So I think sort of coastal resilience again that's just one example. But that, that, that, that is a big bucket that we're focusing on. another big concern is the extreme weather events, the flash floods, the down bursts of rain that now people are calling rain bombs that are happening in places that we don't expect them. 00:10:06:03 - 00:10:42:19 Speaker 2 So places where they have frequent floods. There's some level of preparedness, but now they're happening in places where we aren't expecting them. so that the topography of the city and all of that is really making a difference, even where we don't expect it to, to to make a difference. and then I think for me, also housing and where people live, how people live, the inequity, the vulnerability, who gets to move, who doesn't have a choice, all of these things, including the way the housing is built. 00:10:42:21 - 00:11:08:15 Speaker 2 and, and so that that again, it's another big topic. And we could talk about each of these for an hour or so. I'm going to stop there. So those are maybe my three big concerns. And then the last thing that kind of talks about all of them is that adaptation is costly and very slow moving. And, you know, despite all the evidence that we have that talks about, it's important to prepare and adapt. 00:11:08:17 - 00:11:36:13 Speaker 2 the one that I often use is that, every dollar invested in disaster resilience today could save communities up to $33 in lost future economic activity. And that's a report by the American Chamber of Commerce in 2025. But like even knowing those kind of statistics of 1 to 33, it's still really hard. And it's difficult to, to, make changes once something is already built. 00:11:36:15 - 00:11:53:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. And there's I think that's true. And so much of what adaptation is, is because we have to take existing structures and there are so many interconnectivity as well. And, and just obviously the, the politics and, and inertia and things like that. I'm. 00:11:53:03 - 00:12:00:22 Speaker 2 Sorry just to add to what you just said, but knowing all of that, there's still new construction happening in hazardous locations all around the world. 00:12:00:24 - 00:12:03:07 Speaker 1 Everywhere, even without insurance. 00:12:03:09 - 00:12:05:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:12:05:07 - 00:12:23:07 Speaker 1 I mean, that's that's the thing about the what's happening with urban resilience. That's the hypocrisy in some ways. And I mean, we weren't going to go here immediately. But I mean, I think about the cultural differences. I mean, Miho, I didn't know until I asked how to pronounce your last name that there is a Dutch component. 00:12:23:07 - 00:13:04:09 Speaker 1 I knew that there was a Japanese component. But also, I mean, those are two of the most, advanced cultures, nations, you know, civilizations, if you will, in terms of this topic. So I'm, I'm fascinated, actually, how the two different sides of you came together into this thing that actually are on the forefront of what's happening, whereas the US, in many ways is just trailing on so many things because because I mean, I don't know, is it just because there's money to be made or is it and there's like lack of national policy or like, what is the reason for the cultural difference that is so profound in your and and again, I hate stereotypes, 00:13:04:09 - 00:13:11:15 Speaker 1 but I also love them because they explain certain things. So is there something that you can point to? 00:13:11:17 - 00:13:51:12 Speaker 2 No, I think it's that both of those countries have been suffering from these kinds of events for a very long time, and I think the United States is a very, it's huge. And so some places have been suffering from these events for a long time, but not all places. And both of those countries are much smaller too. And so that kind of, so I think part of that is history, and I think part of so this is really complicated. Part of it is how policy, funding, responsibility, how all of those things are structured is very different. 00:13:51:12 - 00:14:17:08 Speaker 2 And in even those two countries, like, it isn't that they both have a similar way of structuring these things. So, but I think there are parts of the US and, and also indigenous cultures within the US that have are far more advanced. And so, again, I yeah, I think stereotypes are good until you really start sort of talking about the specifics of everything. 00:14:17:08 - 00:14:20:13 Speaker 2 And then we could talk about this for an hour itself too. 00:14:20:15 - 00:14:39:22 Speaker 1 Yeah, completely. And, and I and I am sorry to put you on the spot. I'm gonna, I'm going to let us go back to like, kind of something that you have published a book on. Because at this time last year, in September ‘25, the University of Virginia Press published your book, which is called Design Before Disaster: Japan's Culture of Preparedness. 00:14:40:00 - 00:15:06:21 Speaker 1 So maybe this is a way in it because it was shortlisted for book launches, Architectural Book of the year award, etc. but what is the thesis and is there some kind of big unlock for kind of the the rest of the urban world from Japan's culture of this? What I see in the iF Design award, meticulous design despite the natural and man induced disasters that the country has endured. 00:15:06:23 - 00:15:30:02 Speaker 2 I wouldn't say there's one big unlock. I think it's really thinking about the entire system and the networks and the efforts that have been made to connect top down policy and subsidies with then bottom up work people in local community and local government. And those kinds of connections are really important. And the book tries to tell these stories. 00:15:30:02 - 00:15:56:09 Speaker 2 So it is a book for architects and designers, but it is really sharing the complexity of how these projects get built. so I would say top down, bottom up is one, the system is another. And then the social and the spatial so that spatial you design something that gets built. But what is the social infrastructure so that people know how to use it, when to use it, what what is a management organization. 00:15:56:09 - 00:16:26:22 Speaker 2 Those things matter too. And then the book tries to talk about the disaster timeline. So, so often things are siloed, but how do you really sort of prepare so that during the response phase a place is activated, people know about it? And how do you design the recovery of it? So thinking about all of those, and I think it's a call to planners and policymakers and landscape architects and of course to architects too. 00:16:26:24 - 00:16:53:23 Speaker 2 And I would say the last piece that maybe gravitates most to the architectural scale is the notion of dual use. So, you know, you're not designing something for if an event happens, you design something for that event, not that if then but you're actually designing something that operates in a wonderful way every day. So you're designing a fabulous piece of park or school or something for the for the every day. 00:16:53:23 - 00:17:30:04 Speaker 2 But then the dual use design thinking process makes you also be able to embed the piece that if then something does happen, then then it can be activated either another way or it's able to operate throughout the whole disaster cycle. So those are the pieces. It's not one big unlock. Everything's complicated. but there are ways to approach it, especially through the design lens where you are being clever about how things work in two or even three different scenarios. 00:17:30:06 - 00:17:52:03 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I mean everything that's been discussed. You know, our next episode of to wrap up Archtober is going to be about co-working, and it's, it's, you know, it's again coming back to multi-use. And that's has nothing to do with climate mitigation. So it's fascinating how that is a trend that is moving forward. Adaptation and and multi-use and in, in all aspects of the built environment. 00:17:52:05 - 00:18:29:24 Speaker 1 At MIT you also lead the Urban Risk Lab, which focuses on designing resilient cities that are prepared for risks such as earthquakes, flooding, cyclones, this incredible heat stress. It's a multidisciplinary team that engages in action research in lots of different ways, and community workshops locally and around the world because of what we started talking about before, which is these multiple different communal as well as, you know, cultural context. Is there a, a, a greatest achievement that you're most proud of right now or something that's coming on the horizon? 00:18:30:01 - 00:19:01:02 Speaker 2 well, I love all our projects, but maybe, maybe to think sort of forward to one thing that we've been working for a very long time in Thailand and currently, one of our projects; so we started a collective there called Resilience Collective, and we're working on, Co-pin and Co-plan. So it's an ecosystem, some of it's technology which people can on the ground, use their cell phone to, to get information and collect information. 00:19:01:04 - 00:19:31:18 Speaker 2 And it's paired with a system of gamified workshops to really address the preparing, responding, recovering and then designing for adaptation in those communities. And so this it's it's the first time we've been really able to look at the entire ecosystem of, preparing residents, then figuring out how to respond and working with all these different national level agencies so that we're the connector through their silos. 00:19:31:20 - 00:19:54:21 Speaker 2 and so we're really excited about this project, as it continues to grow. And currently, it's growing quite rapidly. So I think, yeah, maybe I'll instead of rattling off the other projects which people can see already, that's one that's really, growing. And I think it, combines our kind of interdisciplinary strengths together as well. 00:19:54:23 - 00:20:00:04 Speaker 1 That's cool. And, Miho, people can find it by just googling MIT Urban Risk lab? 00:20:00:06 - 00:20:06:06 Speaker 2 Yes, we have we're not we're not always good about updating our website, but yes. yeah. 00:20:06:06 - 00:20:28:22 Speaker 1 Perfect. So obviously this is a very, very big topic and a very growing topic. And urban resilience touches so much of the planet. and our 8.5 billion person population at this point. So with all that to unpack, I want to do a quick answer round if you're willing. so we're just going to have you answer as succinctly as possible the following questions. 00:20:28:22 - 00:20:29:21 Speaker 1 You ready for it? 00:20:29:23 - 00:20:31:00 Speaker 2 Okay. I'll try. 00:20:31:06 - 00:20:50:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. so the Urban Risk Lab that you lead, aspires to change the course of current global developments, development trends, I should say, through radical shift in education. What is the focus of education in terms of of what and for whom? 00:20:50:09 - 00:21:20:19 Speaker 2 Let's say where we build and how we build and education for professionals and architecture, landscape and planning, education of real estate developers, education and how we work collaboratively across fields. And, and we work closely with emergency managers like as designers, working with emergency managers and, so an advisor to our lab, Rich Serino, always says, don't break the silo because then all the grain will fall out, but build the bridge. 00:21:20:19 - 00:21:35:08 Speaker 2 So I think that that's that's one thing. And then on the other side of it is really increasing awareness and preparing the public. So that again comes through the design of cities, but also how we communicate these events happening. 00:21:35:10 - 00:21:58:11 Speaker 1 That don't break the silo build the bridge is applicable to almost any kind of change management in the world. Exactly. I've never heard the expression, but it makes perfect sense. as someone who's always done change, we've talked about already a little bit cultural context, but one of the goals or two of the goals actually, of, of the climate project has been coastal resilience. 00:21:58:11 - 00:22:11:05 Speaker 1 You mentioned earlier as well as empowering frontline communities. How does that happen? Are there any examples worldwide where you think it's happening in either of those spaces extremely well? 00:22:11:07 - 00:22:35:07 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I think, in so many places it's happening well, and I think in the places where it is happening well, we want to make sure that it is supporting people to continue the leadership that they have and then to also grow young leaders who can then continue those traditions. And so I don't think it's for like their communities that do this very well already and have been for centuries. 00:22:35:07 - 00:23:02:17 Speaker 2 And so for us that would be learning from and making sure not to disrupt and then wherever possible enhance. And that's same for natural processes along coasts. We already talked about that, but I think that there's, there is it's in two directions learning from but then also providing wherever there is a gap that we see that we, we can contribute to. 00:23:02:17 - 00:23:33:21 Speaker 2 And so a lot of the research right now at MIT, through the Climate Project is, is understanding where the gaps are and then making sure that we find ways to do the research that helps fill the gaps in, in a very positive way. And I think that's where my lab works on the action research piece. Like, we don't want to just do the research, so we want to make sure that we are then directly contributing too, working with the community, co-creating with the community. 00:23:33:23 - 00:23:57:14 Speaker 1 well, I think that's where the actual impact happens. So, it's it's it's lovely that MIT has this so that there is that opportunity to get out of, you know, out of the classroom, if you will, out of the books and out into the field and into the communities. To that end, in coming back, culture seems to be, for me, a real I mean, I wrote my thesis on identity politics, so it's always a big, interesting piece for me. 00:23:57:20 - 00:24:20:14 Speaker 1 And I think especially in the design and especially in the context of urban living, as things have become more ubiquitous, at a global level, there are still in design, in the built environment, these very strong cultural norms. And there's a role of sensitivity that I imagine has to be taken into account when you go out into these communities, i.e. addressing the needs of diverse cultures in diverse contexts. 00:24:20:14 - 00:24:40:23 Speaker 1 So the Thailand project versus in Japan, Kobe versus, you know, Tokyo or in you know, the Netherlands versus like Mississippi versus California versus, you know, Alaska, and indigenous populations like these are really important. Like how what is the role of sensitivity in urban resilience? 00:24:41:00 - 00:25:13:11 Speaker 2 it is crucial, from so what we, we try to follow is actually a, medical triage professional who said this, but it's most important to learn from how places people do things now before implementing something else. And so really, the learning process of the local knowledge, local ways of treating things, like all disasters are really local because of the context. 00:25:13:13 - 00:25:37:03 Speaker 2 but then also how people respond to them. All of this is crucial so that we're not, making assumptions as we go into places, but really understanding those diverse, yeah, cultures and contexts like you said. I think that's where I think as a lab, we are also challenged because people are like, how do you scale this? 00:25:37:03 - 00:25:56:22 Speaker 2 And we're like, well, we don't want to scale it in a way that, Yeah, there's some contexts, some things that are good to scale and some things that you need to always start from learning about the cultural and, current context. 00:25:57:01 - 00:26:23:12 Speaker 1 And that's frankly responsible design. I mean, that's, that's that's exactly what this is about. And the built environment always has to take stakeholders into account. And at least that's what design excellence should be. Yeah. I'm curious, it leads to a natural question, Miho, about the role and importance of data and who provides that data when you're thinking about urban resilience at a global scale where everything is local? 00:26:23:14 - 00:26:47:18 Speaker 2 Also, not a quick question to answer. These are all good ones. so I think data. Yeah. You need you need a, you need it from the top. So you need to understand the top down data so that you can think of things in a systems perspective. you can't only fix something in one tiny place. You have to understand how it fits into a system. 00:26:47:18 - 00:27:10:10 Speaker 2 Or, like, imagine an entire watershed. You can't just plug one hole. You have to understand what the what the watershed is doing so that that on one scale, I would say. And then the other is the sort of bottom up granular data is often missing. Right? So the project that we're doing in Thailand, the co-pin and Co-plan, addresses this because when we did interviews, people said people come to collect data. 00:27:10:10 - 00:27:36:16 Speaker 2 The government, academia, and then they leave with the data and we have no data. And so that was part of the the, the inspiration for the project was really to make sure that the people who are providing us that really granular data have that to work with. And here's the best way to evacuate, actually, this area of floods every year, all of this information is, is really important in in the entire system. 00:27:36:16 - 00:27:54:01 Speaker 2 So I guess sorry, I could have answered it really quickly to say both the large scale and top down data, but also, figuring out ways to really, collect and use and, and provide the, the, the data that's really granular and important to have. 00:27:54:03 - 00:28:28:23 Speaker 1 thanks for that, it's, it's, it's, it feels like such an immense challenge and yet it's, it's being done and is is incredibly useful. Okay. We are almost at time and I have three more questions, I think. So we're going to go fast. okay. The first one is really kind of generic in terms of like best practice, like across governments, non-governmental organizations, individual players, the private sector, like they're obviously all these different, you know, stakeholders and contributors to the problem as well. 00:28:29:00 - 00:28:45:07 Speaker 1 Is there a standardized form or a rule anywhere that you think helps address the complexities of risk that we're really looking at as best practice? 00:28:45:09 - 00:29:32:16 Speaker 2 so, so I think there some, Well, so we already talked about the contextual specificities. So at one level, yes. Right. There are the high level institutions. The UN, IPCC, like everybody in the even government, state, territory, local level there there are forums, there are standard best practices for certain things. but then once you get into where those then agencies or forums are located, it's often siloed, you know, is it caring for elderly, affordable housing, like who are you talking to and where is that specificity needed? 00:29:32:18 - 00:29:54:12 Speaker 2 and so I think the siloing is still an issue. And then only taking that standardized information is also an issue. and that we've talked about before. But I think what's, what's what's I want to be optimistic in this too not to say that it's always just too complicated, but that since I have started working on this topic about three decades ago, it has improved a lot. 00:29:54:12 - 00:30:14:08 Speaker 2 There is a lot more conversation, there is a lot more information being put out there. And so I think it's important to understand what the best practices and standardization is, and then figure out how that then affects your local context, and what needs to be thought about differently. 00:30:14:10 - 00:30:31:11 Speaker 1 I appreciate that. it makes it makes sense that it's not, nothing simple in this space. Yeah. Thinking of the fact that nothing’s simple, I'm gonna try to make you answer a question in a super simple way when I know it's not. Okay. You ready for it? It's our second to last question. 00:30:31:13 - 00:30:31:21 Speaker 2 Okay. 00:30:32:01 - 00:31:08:16 Speaker 1 The world is only becoming more populated and more urbanized, right? Some some estimates think that over 85% of the world's population is going to live in urban centers in, you know, by 2050, I think I read. That seems impossible, but okay. There is growing weather, extreme weather events, as you said, even unpredictable ones, urban environments, for all sorts of reasons, not least of which we didn't even get to in terms of, you know, greenhouse gas emissions and all the rest of it, the heat indexes, all the rest of it are changing, and making urban centers more, less resilient or more susceptible. 00:31:09:00 - 00:31:33:18 Speaker 1 Do you think that urban resilience in the context of environment is an infrastructure challenge, a capital challenge, a policy challenge, a willfulness challenge, like or something else entirely? I know it's all of the above, but like, is there one leading factor that is like making this like when you look out to 2050, which is our last question as it always is. 00:31:33:18 - 00:31:42:03 Speaker 1 So maybe this is like a nice lead in, that like you think is actually the thing that has to be tackled. 00:31:42:05 - 00:32:10:04 Speaker 2 So yes, all of the above. having said that, I think there's two parts of the problem that I always try to tackle. One is immediate life safety. So that's one, right? And then the other is damage. So that's property belongings livelihood like if you're in agriculture. So I think with those two things at play, there isn't one. 00:32:10:06 - 00:32:15:01 Speaker 2 Yeah. So I think sort of all of the above is my quick answer. 00:32:15:03 - 00:32:36:04 Speaker 1 But is it was an interesting reframe that you just did about, you know, really putting the humans first actually. Not one of my questions really talked about the human aspect. And you're like, who cares about anything? Just take care of people, right? Yeah. So safety and livelihoods. So the last question, Miho, it's the same question as everyone gets is their last question. 00:32:36:04 - 00:32:38:07 Speaker 1 And 100 and now 78 episodes. 00:32:38:08 - 00:32:39:11 Speaker 2 It's amazing. Yeah. 00:32:39:11 - 00:32:46:18 Speaker 1 What's your greatest hope for the future of urban resilience? And let's call it 25 years, which would lead us to 2050 roughly. 00:32:46:20 - 00:33:16:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. I think, I would say zero casualties. Like, I really believe that today with the ways that we communicate and the data that we have and the science that we have, and meteorological information, but all this information, like, I would love to see and in 2050, every news article saying, hey, we had this disastrous event, but everybody's everybody's safe. 00:33:16:16 - 00:33:48:13 Speaker 2 So that would be one thing. And then, with the built environment, like we, we built these cities. And so I think we can figure out how to adapt them, be more balanced with natural systems. And, you know, the, the, the nature like nature has provided us with so many solutions already. And it's and it's not just for this particular reason that there should be more balance within a city, but really for mental health and, you know, childhood education. 00:33:48:13 - 00:34:18:12 Speaker 2 There's so many reasons that we can we can bring more balance. and I think that then, the last thing, sorry would be like, I think also, if we're able to collaborate more through partnerships like private sector, government, academics, practitioners to address these issues, then we can get to my second, my other point of how how then we will be restructuring cities and adapting cities between now and 2050. 00:34:18:14 - 00:34:45:08 Speaker 1 I love that. And you just, really showed your hand as a trained landscape architect, by the way. So, I love it. Miho Mazereeuw, thank you so much, from MIT, for joining us on the Future of XYZ for the future of urban resilience. It's a huge topic. You did a really nice job of trying to answer my very big questions. 00:34:45:10 - 00:34:47:15 Speaker 1 and I appreciate it so much. 00:34:47:17 - 00:34:52:20 Speaker 2 Thank you so much. It was a great conversation. And, yeah, lots to think about and lots of work to do. 00:34:52:20 - 00:35:05:00 Speaker 1 So lots of work to do. Will you just give a shout out where can people find more information about what you guys are doing or where, people are finding the best information about kind of activities of urban resilience right now? 00:35:05:02 - 00:35:31:22 Speaker 2 Yeah. So Urban Risk Lab, is the lab that, you can find it on MIT through MIT. There are a lot of, lot of people working on urban resilience, very much from the community level all the way to many cities are working on this too. And so depending on where your interest lies or where you're, you know, what you want to do as a citizen or what you want to do as a professional. 00:35:31:24 - 00:35:56:03 Speaker 2 it would be, I think. Yeah, there's many ways to get engaged with these kinds of conversations. So I would encourage everybody. Yeah, to do that because also like it's not something that you blame somebody else for like we're stewards of our own environment. Right. And so I think I think of myself as a person. What can I do to contribute and then as an academic, what can I do to contribute? 00:35:56:03 - 00:35:59:05 Speaker 2 And then a practitioner, what can I do to contribute? 00:35:59:07 - 00:36:03:10 Speaker 1 I love that I think that's true for almost everything that is sustainability related. 00:36:03:12 - 00:36:03:19 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:36:03:20 - 00:36:23:01 Speaker 1 Well, again, Miho, thank you so much. And to all of our listeners, if you didn't know, you can watch on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube and you didn't know, you can listen anywhere you get your favorite podcasts. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at futureofxyz and leave a five star review wherever you get your favorite podcast so others can find us better. 00:36:23:03 - 00:36:30:04 Speaker 1 we will see you again for our final episode of Archtober in two weeks, and we look forward to seeing you then. Thank you again. 00:36:30:10 - 00:36:33:03 Speaker 2 Thank you so much.