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A Brideless Horse Show Forces Us To Rethink What We Reward · Equestrian Tea Time

• 0:02
  Isabeau: Um, I found another guest for us too.
• 0:04
  Isabeau: A friend of mine just went through e-gala training.
• 0:08
  Isabeau: So she will come up with that.
• 0:09
  Emma: I'm not familiar, actually.
• 0:12
  Emma: Okay, cool.
• 0:13
  Emma: Yeah, I'm like familiar.
• 0:14
  Emma: My mom's a therapist, and I've actually worked with a couple therapists as the horse handler.
• 0:21
  Emma: You have definitely awesome.
• 0:24
  Isabeau: I love it.
• 0:25
  Emma: It's a very cool.
• 0:26
  Emma: I I think a big point about that subject when you're making you know questions is like it's a really good way to utilize horses and like and get instructors working without riding and putting that impact on like your lesson horses.
• 0:45
  Emma: Yes.
• 0:45
  Emma: Like it could be a really cool cooperative thing with riding programs.
• 0:50
  Isabeau: Yes.
• 0:51
  Isabeau: Uh so yes, so we will talk to her name.
• 0:53
  Isabeau: Her name is Daria, and she is in New Jersey.
• 0:56
  Isabeau: So let's see, we came up with this topic after we had the um that really cool bridalist horse show in the UK.
• 1:04
  Isabeau: Yeah.
• 1:05
  Isabeau: So see if you agree with this as the general framework.
• 1:08
  Isabeau: Is the show horse industry fundamentally at odds with horse welfare, or can the two coexist?
• 1:13
  Isabeau: Does that sound like what our topic is?
• 1:16
  Emma: I I think that that is a a big one.
• 1:21
  Isabeau: Um that is a big one, yes.
• 1:22
  Isabeau: Yeah, to narrow that down.
• 1:25
  Emma: A very broad topic, but I I agree, and I think that's what is on a lot of people's minds.
• 1:32
  Emma: Thinking in terms of that bridalist horse show, you know, the notes that I had made were more just geared towards like k is it okay to compete bridalists and what were the opposing views and how did it go?
• 1:46
  Emma: Um, because I I see like positive changes and mindset changes happening.
• 1:52
  Emma: I just don't know that the the industry's caught up yet.
• 1:57
  Emma: That's how I feel about I think, but as to your question, I feel like absolutely it's at odds.
• 2:04
  Isabeau: The internet animal welfare my end.
• 2:08
  Isabeau: One second.
• 2:09
  Isabeau: Okay, got you.
• 2:10
  Isabeau: You disappeared for some reason.
• 2:12
  Isabeau: We're having problems with the internet connection on my end.
• 2:16
  Isabeau: All right, you're back.
• 2:17
  Isabeau: I only saw some clips of it.
• 2:19
  Isabeau: I thought it was really cool that they put it on.
• 2:21
  Isabeau: My understanding is they were warming up in regular tack and then just pulling the bridle for the uh class.
• 2:28
  Isabeau: So, what did you think of the whole thing?
• 2:33
  Emma: Um, I just as far as being a horse trainer, what I saw was some really happy, unstressed horses.
• 2:41
  Emma: And I would like to see more of that in other horse shows.
• 2:45
  Emma: I don't necessarily think it's an equipment issue, but I think that uh with the equipment, your horse should be willing and comfortable, and that the horse shows should be more a test of how your horse and yourself conduct yourselves out in public in a stressful situation.
• 3:06
  Emma: I saw a lot calmer horses, and that's what I'd like to see with bridles or not.
• 3:12
  Isabeau: Yeah.
• 3:13
  Isabeau: No, definitely for jumpers and for dressage, the horses were a lot more calmer than you would normally see.
• 3:20
  Isabeau: See a lot of dressage horses ready to jump into their skin, a lot of jumper horses in upper level competition, especially where the riders are wrestling with the reins and the horse a lot.
• 3:31
  Isabeau: I mean, there are super quiet horses in tech.
• 3:34
  Isabeau: Western pleasure, that was the main criticism, right?
• 3:38
  Isabeau: That the horses were, they had got them too quiet and too compliant.
• 3:43
  Isabeau: Um, at least with, I mean, with the bridalists, it's uh, I mean, it does make it look like um that you have to train the horse so that they are going to to be willing to cooperate.
• 3:58
  Isabeau: Now, some of the critics, I don't know if you saw the post with the neck band that had the tax on it.
• 4:04
  Isabeau: Did you see?
• 4:04
  Isabeau: Oh my god, yeah.
• 4:05
  Emma: I was like, oh, that's our first, that's our first go, that was our first idea after the tribalist competition.
• 4:14
  Emma: Yes, well, I think that's like this is the the point is that we're missing, we're always missing the moral point with the equipment or the horse training.
• 4:24
  Isabeau: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:25
  Isabeau: Well, I think part of their, I mean, uh, yeah, that I'll have to post a link to a picture of that because it's it's a flat strap with, I don't know, tax or nails that go towards the horse so that when you pull on the neck strap, the pointy parts dig right into the horse's neck.
• 4:42
  Isabeau: And I mean, the thing is that people could use that kind of equipment at home to produce what looks like a really light performance.
• 4:51
  Isabeau: So I think there's definitely an issue that even if the horses are brideless at a horse show, we still don't know what folks are doing at home.
• 5:00
  Isabeau: Um, what people pointed out that I liked a lot was that there being no equipment, a lot more of the spectators were focusing a lot more on the horses' behavior, and that they were very interested to see the horses appeared to be uh listening to the riders more and more responsive and more communicated.
• 5:19
  Isabeau: I mean, there's a huge difference between somebody cantering up to a jumper fence, wrestling on the reins, and some of those really impressive, you know, they put some really impressive headgear on jumper horses sometimes.
• 5:32
  Isabeau: And with the rider pulling for all their worth, versus these horses cantering up to a fence, you just you're not wrestling.
• 5:40
  Isabeau: You can't be.
• 5:40
  Isabeau: I mean, you could potentially pull on the neck rope, but there's nothing like the rider interference that can happen in that when you have that much bigger, much more dramatic equipment.
• 5:52
  Isabeau: I mean, the um, if we want to, we don't want to pick on a sport, but mentioned another sport that uses really large equipment.
• 6:00
  Isabeau: Um, the barrel racing people, you know, some of the headsets.
• 6:04
  Isabeau: We we would have to have a side-by-side competition as to who uses more, shall we say insignificant or heinous or horrifying gear on horse's head between jumper riders and barrel riders because they both use some really substantial restraint devices on the horse's head and in their mouth to try to control the fact that they need a lot of power from the horse.
• 6:27
  Isabeau: But since the horse is kind of overwhelmed, then the riders are forced to having to wrestle them back with this really huge equipment.
• 6:36
  Isabeau: The dressage performance always interests me very much because it's interesting to watch the horse's headsets.
• 6:42
  Isabeau: You know, the horses do kind of naturally, their necks do go behind the vertical at times.
• 6:48
  Isabeau: And I don't know whether that's a reflection of the fact that the horse is possibly doing the maneuvers with the less than ideal muscle usage, you know, even without a bit, maybe they're still engaging themselves in a way that they're gonna curl.
• 7:02
  Isabeau: Um, but I found the um dressage to be even more interesting than the jumping in terms of watching, watching the um the horses go through a variety of neck conditions.
• 7:17
  Isabeau: The dressage riders are they're almost having to do a lot more, balance the horse laterally, left, right, a little bit more forward, a little bit more back, no tech to canter side to the left.
• 7:28
  Isabeau: And I can see some of them struggling without the bit, you know, to get that kind of communication with the horse when they only had the uh neck rod.
• 7:36
  Emma: And that's that is the the argument I hear from anyone who has issues with like bitless or bridaless riding, is like there's just so many aids we're using.
• 7:48
  Emma: How do we train those when we change equipment?
• 7:52
  Emma: And it's it's doable, but there's so many reasons that you might want to use a bridle or a bitless bridle or a neck rope, and so I would love to see it allowed in competition.
• 8:06
  Emma: Um, at the same time, like to play the devil's advocate a little bit.
• 8:10
  Emma: The argument as far as um safety goes with bitless and bridaless is that especially with jumping, you get into a sticky situation.
• 8:22
  Emma: How do you re um reset your horse?
• 8:25
  Emma: How do you communicate um in a dangerous situation to stop your horse, uh, intentionally refuse to jump because you know it's about to go sideways?
• 8:36
  Emma: How do you um, you know, these things?
• 8:39
  Emma: How do we really deeply communicate with the horse in a dangerous situation has been the fear?
• 8:46
  Emma: Um, but I think the answer is that you have no business putting your horse in a horse show or that situation if they're too uh nervous to listen to your cues, and then you should have the you should have the allowance to use these different aids the way you want.
• 9:04
  Emma: We don't all train our horses the same, especially para riders, right?
• 9:08
  Emma: We need to change things up, so why can't we do that for the horse?
• 9:12
  Emma: Um, but it's a fear of not having the horse's head restrained if they take off or something like that.
• 9:19
  Emma: And they are herd animals, so we've always just said better safe than sorry, we don't want horses running loose, but that is clearly not what would happen with this.
• 9:30
  Emma: And I think to make it doable, it we would maybe have to uh separate shows or classes into these things to make it fair to judge these horses against each other.
• 9:43
  Emma: Um, but I was wondering what your perspective on all of that was with this recent um horse show judging you were learning about, because I know that learning more about horse, like how the horse is being judged, really changed my perspective on what could be done in horse shows or not, and about the safety perspective, but also like how do we judge these horses against each other?
• 10:06
  Emma: Um, so yeah, I wanted to see your perspective on that.
• 10:11
  Isabeau: Yeah, so I think it's fairly straightforward with the jumpers because it is, at least in the United States, I believe it is allowed now.
• 10:17
  Isabeau: Like there are no restrictions on headgear in the jumpers, and there are people who have competed bridalists.
• 10:22
  Isabeau: So for jumpers, I don't think it's that complicated, especially if you're just dropping the bridle right as you go into the ring.
• 10:29
  Isabeau: Um, for dressage, it definitely puts a bigger uh makes it trickier on the judges.
• 10:37
  Isabeau: Um, schooling shows are already, at least the years that I was in New Jersey, pretty uh generous about letting people try stuff out.
• 10:46
  Isabeau: They were fine with people doing bitless bridles, you know.
• 10:49
  Isabeau: They want people to get out there and participate and have a safe experience.
• 10:54
  Isabeau: And um, so honestly, if they can let you do a bitless, I think if you want to go with a neck rope, that should be fine.
• 11:01
  Isabeau: The problem that I saw at that level was people being pushed.
• 11:06
  Isabeau: I did see a young jumper rider in a class once who I got the impression was possibly being prompted by the adults.
• 11:15
  Isabeau: And she looks a little out of control and couldn't quite stop her horse.
• 11:19
  Isabeau: So I might suggest that this be an adults and above only thing because kids are really motivated by exciting, thrilling things that they see and they don't really understand.
• 11:32
  Isabeau: Uh, you know, they don't know the risk that they're taking.
• 11:35
  Isabeau: So I might, you know, ask that at the schooling show level that the judges allow us to start playing around with the bit list, but I would possibly say 18 and older, because I have seen young people be pushed in into it.
• 11:53
  Isabeau: I've heard a young jumper rider kind of desperately saying, please load whoa, whoa, whoa, in a desperate way that made me think that they didn't really have control over their horse there.
• 12:03
  Isabeau: Um, yes, the judging thing is very interesting.
• 12:06
  Isabeau: That was on my list.
• 12:08
  Isabeau: So the judges' role and industry accountability.
• 12:11
  Isabeau: So if we talk about the judges, um, so yeah, when the judging symposium was very interesting, you know, they have a list of criteria that they apply, and that's kind of it.
• 12:20
  Isabeau: Um, so um if we want them to judge dressage bridalists, then they would have to come up with a whole new format for the criteria by which they judge things.
• 12:31
  Isabeau: So my guess is that that might that's gonna cause them some problems.
• 12:37
  Isabeau: Um yeah.
• 12:39
  Emma: Do you see any trouble judging the dressage with some people using bits, some people using double bits and double bridles, and some people using bitless at the higher levels?
• 12:50
  Isabeau: Um, at the higher levels, my expectation is gonna be that those judges ought to be able to deal with it.
• 12:57
  Isabeau: You know, I I would I think that it's probably a lot to ask of schooling show judges and lower level judges who are having or who are faced with having to be cheerleaders for the introductory level of the sport and try to promote and try to help people learn to do things.
• 13:16
  Isabeau: But I mean the lower level judges are under a tremendous amount of pressure in terms of people who are at least in the United States, people are expecting support and not criticism.
• 13:27
  Emma: Yeah.
• 13:28
  Emma: And then like the only thing I can't see any problems or any accommodation that would need to be made between like needing a neck rope, but I would love to see just bit lists and bits allowed at schooling competitions, and maybe if it's only snaffle bits, then there's only uh side poles allowed because a hackamore is essentially a an action bit, like a double bridle bit or a shank bit.
• 13:57
  Emma: So that you know, I can I could see not allowing certain types of hackamores or something like that, because they, you know, are not like a snaffle bit if we're comparing the two, but I think that schooling show people could could do that.
• 14:13
  Emma: And the only reason being is that like a lot of schooling programs, we don't use bits a lot, and so the horse is going to act a lot different with a bit that day.
• 14:22
  Emma: Some horses just don't like bits or have mouth issues, and so I would just love to see that.
• 14:27
  Emma: And then I think at the higher levels, it would be really cool to to allow bit lists along with those other things, because as you said, the judges should be at a certain level or giving all this time to these classes and really watching.
• 14:42
  Emma: And I think it would change the climate over there if some people are using bits and raise this or not using bits because it would raise the standard of the you know, happiness we're seeing with the horses and and allow more people in if they say don't want to use a double bridle.
• 15:00
  Emma: Um, and at the same time, I think that it you know, it could just really change the climate.
• 15:06
  Emma: And at the same time, we have to realize that the horse show judges are not judging the horse's demeanor and how happy they're, you know, body look, you know, they're not focused on the horse's emotions, they're focused on the movements and judging in a specific way.
• 15:26
  Emma: So to change the culture, I think it would just be good to individually be able to make these choices.
• 15:36
  Isabeau: Yeah, it seems we're we're stuck a little bit in a chicken and an egg here.
• 15:40
  Isabeau: This was another topic um when it comes to the uh the painful practicalities of horse shows and judging and stuff, is that um, you know, it's really the larger industries that have made all these systems and all these rules.
• 15:56
  Isabeau: Uh, having volunteered at a lot of dressage shows and having as a volunteer witnessed quite a few uh really sketchy things.
• 16:05
  Isabeau: These were before smartphones, and people might be worried about getting in trouble for these things.
• 16:11
  Isabeau: Um, you know, the whole show horse industry is in service of these top-level competitors.
• 16:19
  Isabeau: Um, you know, and they really do feel like it's all about them and they have no problem throwing their weight around at um horse shows.
• 16:28
  Isabeau: Uh and it seems like a lot of us who want to do things, try to do things differently with bitless and with neck ropes and with clicker training and all these kinds of things, are um, you know, don't carry enough financial weight to make much difference in the industry.
• 16:46
  Isabeau: So that's one of the big things that I think about when I'm thinking about these things.
• 16:51
  Isabeau: You know, when I have both worked professionally and volunteered at the many shows that I have, how clearly the peons do not matter compared to the folks at the top of the food chain.
• 17:03
  Isabeau: Yeah, Kendi and Farms online horse shows and these other online horse shows provide us a format where we can start to play with these ideas without having to attempt to move the Titanic infrastructure that is, you know, in the United States, the USEF and the FEI.
• 17:20
  Isabeau: Um, so I do really like these smaller, the online horse shows as a place for us to be able to get started with that kind of thing and uh see how we can um make it work.
• 17:32
  Isabeau: And now now now my AirPods have decided to disconnect.
• 17:36
  Isabeau: I'm not having much luck with the technology today.
• 17:39
  Isabeau: The technology is not my friend.
• 17:41
  Isabeau: All right, the airpods are back on.
• 17:43
  Isabeau: At least I can hear.
• 17:44
  Isabeau: Um, so show environment.
• 17:48
  Isabeau: Another topic that I brought up in my research for us to talk about was the show environment.
• 17:54
  Isabeau: I've personally groomed and worked at some horse shows where the stabling was just horrendous.
• 17:58
  Isabeau: We were in a tropical climate and they had these low ceiling buildings, and this metal roof was literally a few feet from your head radiating down, astonishing heat.
• 18:08
  Isabeau: We weren't allowed to have fans because the will the buildings weren't rated for the electrical load.
• 18:14
  Isabeau: Um uh at the same time, I've known some horses who really love horse shows, who really they love activity, they love stuff, they they hate hanging out in the barnyard or even in a 20-acre field.
• 18:28
  Isabeau: Um, they find that unspeakably boring, and they really do thrive on going out to the hunt or going to the race or going to a horse show.
• 18:39
  Isabeau: They like to horse watch just like the way that people like to people watch.
• 18:44
  Isabeau: Um, but then you hear constantly people online asking, what can I give my horse to keep him calm at the horse show?
• 18:51
  Isabeau: He's great at home.
• 18:52
  Isabeau: And then we get to the horse show and he gets upset or he won't drink water or he's really spooky.
• 18:57
  Isabeau: So there's definitely plenty of horses who who don't like shows.
• 19:02
  Isabeau: Um how should we think about that?
• 19:06
  Isabeau: What are what are the welfare issues when you've got people who want to show horses and horses that don't want to go to shows?
• 19:13
  Emma: I mean, if it's not a life and death issue, but sometimes it is.
• 19:21
  Emma: Some of us are still literally depend on our horses for survival, and vice versa.
• 19:29
  Emma: It's just true.
• 19:31
  Emma: Um, so I think in that case, maybe you have to go, and that is really very much the rodeo bale racing culture and and the American dream of being able to make real money off of one horse and a sport and a partnership.
• 19:50
  Emma: So I get it, and sometimes it is financially like life or death in these animals need to work, and we need to work um to make things work.
• 20:00
  Emma: But I think that high-level competition and the English shows, I mean, there's no mu there's no money to even be made.
• 20:08
  Emma: So why go?
• 20:10
  Emma: Yeah, there's no support for even students, we're losing um scholarship programs, we're losing show horse show teams, there's literally nowhere to go unless you are fully funded and at the very top.
• 20:27
  Emma: And so, in that case, I think if you have the means to just survive and then you do horse shows for fun, then you should find a horse that wants to do that with you, or you can do online shows.
• 20:41
  Isabeau: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:42
  Isabeau: You know, I see so many lesson programs rely on horse shows as the exciting goal that they are, that their students are going towards.
• 20:52
  Isabeau: And for a long time, I've wished we could have a different exciting goal for students to go towards.
• 20:58
  Isabeau: You know, some of us really like like horses, and people will get a few horses and buy a property and learn how to take care of the horses themselves, and they'll find that really enjoyable and really, really fulfilling, and they'll really enjoy learning everything that they learn as they go through that process over a few decades.
• 21:17
  Isabeau: But I know other people who just, if they're not getting ready for a horse show, there's just no point for them to go to the barn.
• 21:23
  Isabeau: You know, if there's no brass ring or no dangled carrot, you know, if there's no horse show series, if there's no summer show series, you know, they don't, they can't find a reason to go.
• 21:36
  Isabeau: So I think a lot of our a lot of our business structure is really based on having that brass ring and having that carrot to dangle in front of people to give them a goal.
• 21:47
  Emma: Um I wonder if we are setting ourselves up for disaster by thinking of this industry and Selling it to people as a sport and that these are livestock.
• 22:05
  Emma: But really, in reality, these days, if you get a horse, it is more that they're a pet.
• 22:11
  Emma: And you have to think of it that way first.
• 22:15
  Emma: And if we could just enjoy them as pets and hobbies, you know, but the goal is doing something with this animal and using them not as a vehicle, like us as real horsemen who have spent our lives know that that horse showing should be the goal.
• 22:31
  Emma: Like it, it's a fun goal to have.
• 22:34
  Emma: But it's not if there are pets and our, you know, their welfare needs to come first, and and they're not vehicles.
• 22:42
  Emma: We build this horsemanship and partnership to then maybe be able to go and like show off that partnership at a horse show.
• 22:49
  Emma: But there's a disconnect between what we experience as professionals and like what amateurs and our clients experience.
• 22:59
  Emma: And I it's so tough.
• 23:01
  Isabeau: I don't know.
• 23:01
  Isabeau: It is so tough.
• 23:02
  Isabeau: No, and the disconnect between amateurs and professionals, that is a very good point.
• 23:07
  Isabeau: Um, you know, what I find a lot is people getting horses, and even if they want them to be pets, they don't want them to be an intensive learning project.
• 23:19
  Isabeau: No matter what they do, you know, they purchase the horse kind of the way you purchased a blender or a car or a lawnmower.
• 23:26
  Isabeau: You expect there to be a little bit of setup, but then you expect it to just kind of work.
• 23:30
  Isabeau: You don't expect it to be a decades-long process of being humbled repeatedly.
• 23:39
  Isabeau: And because a lot of people don't particularly enjoy being humbled repeatedly.
• 23:44
  Isabeau: And um, you know, once they find out that owning a horse can be like that, their enthusiasm dwindles a lot.
• 23:50
  Isabeau: Um, or they just refuse to believe it.
• 23:53
  Isabeau: They keep having another trainer or trying to switch things around, but they keep trying to find some way that, you know, having the horse and keeping the horse, not even progressing, but just keeping both you and the horse safe and happy and working together without either of you getting upset or injured or scared, is possibly going to be a lot harder than they thought.
• 24:19
  Isabeau: And they didn't sign up for that.
• 24:21
  Emma: Yeah.
• 24:22
  Emma: And things just happen to our horses or us that, you know, like my mayor, I've got one lesson horse, and we've been out for four months because even though she's technically healthy and rideable, she's having some behavior issues issues because of this uh cancer.
• 24:41
  Emma: And then she's fine and it's slow growing.
• 24:44
  Emma: And so they wanted to do like six months of rounds of testing.
• 24:48
  Emma: So I'm out of work for however long, right?
• 24:51
  Emma: And these things just happen all the time.
• 24:54
  Emma: One bad failure visit, and I'm out of uh work, and all my students also don't get to ride their horse.
• 25:01
  Emma: So I think the focus needs to change a little bit on what lesson programs provide you, right?
• 25:08
  Emma: Because if I could just get my students to keep coming out to work on horsemanship, that'd be great.
• 25:15
  Emma: But instead, you know, I'm hanging on as long as I can without any lesson horse.
• 25:21
  Emma: But I can't own five or six to make other people happy, especially when they treat it like they go to the gym more than they come to ride.
• 25:30
  Emma: Good point.
• 25:30
  Isabeau: Yep, yep, yep, good point.
• 25:32
  Isabeau: Yep.
• 25:34
  Emma: And uh something I see a lot is this need to control something in your life, and you come to a riding program to do that.
• 25:44
  Emma: And these are the students I see who really want a horse and would or often want to lease my horses so they can be left alone to work with the horse, because sometimes they think if they were just left alone or they owned the horse, then everything would go great, and it's just something about my horse and the instructor that's the problem.
• 26:07
  Emma: But oh, really?
• 26:08
  Emma: You know, they find out six months later, once they get a horse, that you know, I these are just the realities.
• 26:14
  Emma: It's harder than it looks.
• 26:15
  Emma: And when we're giving these anecdotes of like it's really hard, you know, we're trying to give warnings, but people ultimately often do what they want to do.
• 26:26
  Emma: But a lot of times I see it as more like they want control of the situation, and they think once they own the horse and have control over the tack and the farrier and the vet and the feed program, and can you know get the instructor off their back and just go ride alone, that everything will work out.
• 26:44
  Emma: And in reality, if you're going to get a horse, you should be planning on taking lessons and continue to take lessons.
• 26:51
  Emma: Yeah, all of us professionals do, right?
• 26:54
  Isabeau: Yes, I haven't had uh people say that to me directly, but you're right, that has happened in the past.
• 27:00
  Isabeau: I just didn't quite recognize that that what was going on.
• 27:03
  Isabeau: We could also talk about training and age.
• 27:06
  Isabeau: Uh, what age is it suitable to start horses showing or training?
• 27:11
  Isabeau: You know, there are still vets that uh I listen to a bunch of different vet podcasts, and vets speak really differently about this.
• 27:19
  Isabeau: I've heard vets say that the horse's body has to be loaded with a certain kind of work at a young age in order for its nervous system to be programmed to develop robustly so that it can perform that job, so that the horses really do need to be started at two, doing something like what the job is.
• 27:39
  Isabeau: And then on the other end, we get a lot of people saying five to seven years old.
• 27:44
  Isabeau: You know, you shouldn't be sitting on your horse until its skeleton is formed, is formed then.
• 27:50
  Isabeau: Um, so now I'm I'm more confused than I was 10 years ago.
• 27:56
  Isabeau: What's I mean, I what's a good time?
• 28:00
  Emma: Yeah, it it varies, and there's some stipulations.
• 28:04
  Emma: It matters the breed of the horse.
• 28:06
  Emma: We know that certain breeds like knees and backs fuse at five to seven years old, and some don't.
• 28:15
  Emma: We know that horses that have had um a hard time in life at a young age might stop growing and then finish growing later.
• 28:26
  Emma: I've seen that in a lot of mustangs because their bodies are smart and sometimes they have growth spurts well past when they should have, because they were experiencing such scarcity when they were rounded up or at the facility.
• 28:42
  Emma: Um, so it varies, I think it has to go by case-by-case basis.
• 28:47
  Emma: Um, thoroughbreds, they mature much faster than other horses.
• 28:52
  Emma: That is true.
• 28:53
  Emma: We know this from x-rays.
• 28:56
  Emma: Uh, it doesn't mean they should be ridden at a one-year-old.
• 28:59
  Emma: So, what I'd really like to see is, you know, if you're a real horse person and you're going to have horses throughout your life and start some horses, it would be really great to get x-rays and and kind of further this research for us.
• 29:14
  Emma: But, you know, if you get a horse that's bred, then the the breeder's gonna know when they tend to mature and what they want done.
• 29:23
  Emma: Um, and then you have to think about like types of horses.
• 29:26
  Emma: There's cart horses, and they're really just not meant to be ridden in the same way.
• 29:32
  Emma: They can be, but those horses you probably want to start a lot later.
• 29:36
  Emma: Um, and then as far as the research on impacts and strengthening bones, you can do that just fine with like putting a saddle on their back.
• 29:45
  Emma: Um and and then there's just a lot of the the issue, even though it doesn't, it seems like a different issue, is really that just horse owners don't work their horses up to things and keep things in reasonable time limits.
• 30:02
  Emma: If we were going to sit and do a pony ride on this young horse, that's way different than even getting on and off that horse a million times and bouncing around like this.
• 30:13
  Emma: Like, I don't want to see their their body swaying.
• 30:18
  Emma: And if they are, we've got like a weight issue, we've got, you know, the horse, the horse shouldn't be taking the max loads at the beginning, and then they should be worked up in a in a maintenance program, right?
• 30:31
  Emma: So, like you start with a few minutes and you really work your way up.
• 30:35
  Emma: And so I don't know, I think there's a big disconnect.
• 30:39
  Emma: Like today I saw a TikTok of a lady who maybe it was a TikTok or like a YouTube video, but I was just checking this person out, and she's a barrel racer.
• 30:48
  Emma: Um, and I she's lovely with her horses and everything, and they're well trained, and she's just very she's casual about it.
• 30:54
  Emma: It's she's an amateur, but what I saw was she's like, We're I just had my baby and I'm just getting back in the saddle.
• 31:01
  Emma: Um, so we're going to a barrel race this weekend.
• 31:04
  Emma: And I was just like, oof.
• 31:06
  Emma: And then she goes on to say, like, yeah, I've ridden like twice and had my horse back in work for a week.
• 31:11
  Emma: So, like, how do you think that's gonna go?
• 31:14
  Emma: Just like us, like, we need to be worked up into these things.
• 31:17
  Emma: And if you looked at how like Brazilian barrel racers are training their horses, the big barrel races are training their horses, or how race horses are worked up to races and maintained, it's very different than what we're doing.
• 31:32
  Emma: Because we're like, oh, it's casual and I just want to hop on for a second.
• 31:35
  Emma: If it's casual and you just want to hop on for a second, then you're gonna need like a horse.
• 31:40
  Emma: That that's not the horse you're starting as a cult, right?
• 31:44
  Emma: Those horses need lots of time, slow starts.
• 31:48
  Emma: And I know I still haven't even answered your question, but for me, the range is three to five years old, is when I like to start riding and work your way up.
• 32:00
  Emma: I think a lot of people do two years old.
• 32:02
  Emma: I think some horses, it's for from a behavioral perspective, it's good to get them going a little bit, get them used to it.
• 32:10
  Emma: But really, if you look at like dressage trainers, breeding programs in English riding, that the horses that have to get certified in like dressage jumping, um, take like the Frisian breeding.
• 32:22
  Emma: They have to be, if they want to be a breeding stallion, they have to be able to jump, do dressage and stuff.
• 32:27
  Emma: They don't start looking at them till they're like seven, eight years old, maybe five, if you're really lucky.
• 32:34
  Emma: And they start these horses off just so slow, and starting them at pulling them out of the field and starting them at three really doesn't seem to affect them as long as they've been like raised and handled, which I see a lot of Western riders fearing, and that's why they get on their horse so quick.
• 32:51
  Emma: Um, or a lot of times it's like, I gotta, I gotta do this for a living and I gotta get these horses going.
• 32:59
  Emma: Um, and I think there's a way to do it safely, and I think there's a really wrong way to do it, and I think that a lot of people miss the conditioning and exercise part of it for their horses.
• 33:13
  Emma: If your horses fit, it's gonna be a lot different.
• 33:17
  Isabeau: So no, that yeah, no, you yeah, I think you brought up a really big point there.
• 33:22
  Isabeau: Yeah, so a lot of these professional programs that are maybe they're starting roping horses or cutting horses at two or three, they're also in huge programs where they do this a lot and they're very good at it.
• 33:34
  Isabeau: And they take conditioning the animals at a very high professional level when you compare with somebody who's you know an amateur and has one horse.
• 33:43
  Isabeau: Um, it is like trying to compare apples to oranges, it's very different.
• 33:47
  Isabeau: And the conditioning beforehand, that's an excellent point.
• 33:50
  Isabeau: There's one lady I follow, this lucky devil.
• 33:52
  Isabeau: I forget if she's in New Zealand or Australia, um, and she rides her horses around and brings other horses loose.
• 34:00
  Isabeau: And she had one of her mayors had a foal, and that foal followed them loose on the trails, going over trees, swimming in the ocean with dolphins, you know, and getting to do all of these conditioning activities that most to, you know, young horses.
• 34:16
  Isabeau: So even by the time she did get that horse started, that horse had tremendous out of the ring over rough terrain conditioning that, you know, nobody, even if you wait until they're five years old, you know, your horse is probably not going to get that.
• 34:34
  Isabeau: Most people's horses are not going to get the kind of conditioning like that horse did.
• 34:39
  Emma: And then I would like to put, you know, as a as a pair rider and someone who has had to get real creative with like maintaining my my lesson horses is riding horses when I straight up don't ride, you know, there's a way to do anything if you really put your mind to it.
• 34:57
  Emma: And what I've found is that if you don't have tack in a rider, you can do everything with that horse and get all those cues done.
• 35:05
  Emma: And and you and like you said, these horses should be getting exercise and and work.
• 35:12
  Emma: It's just we don't they don't need to go in little circles, it's bad for them.
• 35:17
  Emma: They don't need to be ridden, they need exercise and training.
• 35:23
  Isabeau: All right, I got you back here.
• 35:25
  Isabeau: I think we're gonna we're gonna have to run just because my internet keeps dropping.
• 35:29
  Isabeau: This is so very annoying.
• 35:30
  Isabeau: We had fit fitting them out too.
• 35:33
  Isabeau: So the last I heard from you was saying that yes, that the horses don't need to be ridden in circles and they need to be uh conditioned.
• 35:40
  Isabeau: I can offer one good free resource.
• 35:41
  Isabeau: Jack Balu has a bunch of free stuff online um that offers pull work and all kinds of conditioning and pro-proception work for folks who don't live in Australia or New Zealand and can't swim there, horses with the dolphins for the rest of us.
• 35:58
  Isabeau: Before my internet cuts us off again and uh totally tortures us.
• 36:02
  Isabeau: Uh, is there anything else that you want to add here before we wrap up?
• 36:09
  Emma: Yeah, um good question.
• 36:13
  Emma: Anything?
• 36:14
  Emma: No, there was like a topic that I thought of while we were talking, and hopefully it comes back to me.
• 36:20
  Emma: It was like related.
• 36:22
  Emma: Oh, there is something I would like to mention, and that is, and maybe we can do an episode on this.
• 36:27
  Emma: Is the have you heard about them?
• 36:29
  Emma: They're gonna shoot all the Brumbies this week.
• 36:33
  Emma: I heard something they're focusing on shooting pregnant mares.
• 36:37
  Emma: I've never heard of any sort of excellent uh Mustang management that's that brutal.
• 36:44
  Emma: Um, yes, and they're only taking comments from locals, but um, I do have their address if you'd like to send them some international mail.
• 36:53
  Emma: This has been going on since like 2000, and I have to have quite a bit of information on the subject.
• 37:01
  Isabeau: Or I could just I'll just put the I'll just put it in the uh notes.
• 37:05
  Emma: Yeah, well, I'll find it in Patreon.
• 37:08
  Emma: Okay, all right.
• 37:09
  Emma: I offer my lessons, um, virtual training, Patreon.
• 37:17
  Isabeau: I came up with some other good ideas.
• 37:19
  Isabeau: Um, we could talk about uh in a podcast in the future.
• 37:23
  Isabeau: Is social media good or bad for the horse and industry for students and for professionals?
• 37:30
  Isabeau: That would be a really good idea.
• 37:31
  Emma: So I have my uh own thoughts about AI and I okay, cool, okay.
• 37:37
  Isabeau: So all right, cool.
• 37:39
  Isabeau: We can so we can do uh we'll play in that as a topic.
• 37:42
  Isabeau: And I have a friend who I'm gonna supposed to interview this week.
• 37:45
  Isabeau: She was just went through uh Nigel uh certification program.
• 37:50
  Isabeau: So hopefully I'll talk to yes, she would be very interesting to talk to.
• 37:54
  Isabeau: Then let me go before the internet uh dumps us again, seeing as how it's not being very nice.
• 38:00
  Isabeau: So uh, yes, thank you very much for meeting me today.
• 38:03
  Isabeau: Stay cool out there in the hot part of the country.
• 38:07
  Isabeau: We'll try.
• 38:08
  Isabeau: All righty.
• 38:11
  Isabeau: Take care.
• 38:11
  Isabeau: Take care.
• 38:12
  Isabeau: Bye bye.