Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / BP2 Season 2 Episode 10 – Tony Johnson | Redefining Preaching Preparation
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Tony, welcome back to the better preaching podcast. Tony Johnson: Again, good to be here. Excited. Dr. Frank Weller: Hey man, I know you're passionate about constantly improving as a communicator. So I just want to dive right in. I I know that that passion has led you to think really proactively about your preaching style. And you've you've like all preachers, you change over time, but you've been really in a season of thinking about how you preach. Tell us what that's looked like for you. Tony Johnson: Yeah, it's been it's been interesting. it it really all started when I went out to a preaching master class. Albert Tate holds a preaching master class. And basically what he does, he brings in high capacity preachers. they deliver a message and then they sit and they talk about how do you do what you do. And so Judah Smith was there. Judah Smith, have you ever watched Judah Smith preach? He's got a style of his own. he's great at what he does. And he was talking about his preparation. And he basically said his preparation involved him, if I remember correctly, just kind of walking around thinking around his parents' pool that morning. And of course, this is a guy who's living in the word, who's doing, yeah, he's got tons of experience. But but when he said that, there was almost this this weird switch that went. I was like, wait a minute. My preparation could look different. Because what I think what I discovered in that moment was that I was preparing for a different style of preaching than what is natural for me. So from the beginning, you know, when you first start, people you you discover do I do outline, do I do bullet points? Do I do no notes? Do I do a manuscript? and I tried many things and I kind of landed on a detailed outline. And like in it's an outline that I could hand you, you could read it over, and then you could get up and preach it fairly well. It was that detailed but what I started finding was when I would run through it to practice it, I would take a blue pen and a red pin and I would make different markings, circle things, put a star, highlight, whatever, write a a note. and when I was preaching, what I noticed was I wasn't using the outline at all. I was just using the visual cues of the red and blue ink. So if I looked down and I saw a big red circle with a blue star beside it, it just I just remembered, that's that section's about this thing. And I wasn't actually using my notes, but I was still doing the notes. And and so I felt like I'm I'm preparing. I'm preaching based on the way I prepared rather than preparing for the way that I preach, if that makes if that makes sense at all. Dr. Frank Weller: that's interesting. Tony Johnson: Yeah. So so I said, okay, how do I how do I prepare differently now? so I started thinking through and even working with my coach just about how my how my brain works. So if you look at any assessment that I've ever taken, I'm a big picture person. Details bog me down. They they're just they exhaust me. I don't find enjoyment in them. So we started thinking about okay, if that is true, how do I think through and prepare my messages? so if I you if you don't mind, Frank, I'll just kind of walk through what a normal week of preparation Dr. Frank Weller: No, please do. Tony Johnson: looks like. Yeah. So for me, Mondays are writing days and I put that in air quotes because I don't actually do any writing. So Mondays what I do is I I think through I'm gonna live in the passage. So if we're preaching on let's just say Jesus walking on water, I'm gonna read that story, see it in its context, just kind of think about and pray on it. Read it multiple times. and I may I may do a mind map of kind of what I'm thinking about the message. But from Monday through Wednesday, I'm really just kind of living in the scripture. So I'm constantly thinking about it. I think I think one of the greatest tools for a preacher is white space. I think so. White space is that when I'm not thinking about it, I don't I'm just taking some time to clear my mind. Some of my greatest ideas come at two o'clock in the morning when I'm in bed. I wake up to get a drink, go to the restroom, whatever. And I'm like, like this would be a great illustration. And I write it down. I think Many preachers underutilize white space and just finding some time with a clear mind to just let all the thoughts we've been thinking about just kind of settle. And I think some great ideas come up. At least they do for me. so basically I treat that as white space for three days. I'm not writing anything. I'm just thinking through some ideas. If I get an idea, I'll jot it down in like I do Google keep notes on my phone, just toss it in there. And then on Thursday, I'll sit down and I'll do a mind map. If you're not familiar with mind map, it's basically just mapping out how you're thinking in little bubbles. You can look it up. and it it works for the way that my my brain is wired. and then I'll often take that and I'll I'll divide them into movements. So each branch off the big idea is is a different movement. So usually I have I don't know, five, maybe six movements. So like this past weekend. was the concluding message on the book of revelation. So my movements where I had an initial opening, kind of recapping where we've been, why we've looked at the book of Revelation, how we've approached it. the second movement was about the hope that we find in Revelation 21 and how like powerful and important that is. and then I talked about this theme of the robes because chapter twenty one feels like it could be the conclusion of the book, but there's another chapter And so before I went into that chapter, I needed to talk about the importance of the robes that's a theme like strewn throughout the entire book of Revelation. in in how many times Jesus says, and even in chapter 22, he says, Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and enter through the gates into the city. and then we said, So how do we wash our robes? So that's the fourth movement. Like, what does it look like for us to wash our robes? And then the fifth movement was Jesus says three times in chapter twenty-two, I'm coming soon. Every time he talks in chapter twenty-two, he begins with, I am coming soon. So there is an urgency to our decision to wash our robes in the blood of the Lamb. There's an urgency to our decision for Jesus. there's an urgency for the gospel. so in my head, I know there's five movements. I know what each movement is. And because I took a 30-minute message. And broke it into five movements, that's five, five to six minute talks. It's not hard for me to remember where I'm going for a five or six minute talk. And I'm just doing five of them and I'm tying them together. And what I found was I reduce the amount of preparation time that I have to preach dramatically because I'm not creating an outline that I didn't actually need. What I actually need, the way that I'm wired, I just need to think through the movements. And where I'm going. Like I know where I'm going. I know where I'm taking you. and it's it's allowed me to do a couple things. Number one, it's allowed me to be more authentic in who I am. What I want, I want to take you on a journey with me as we explore scripture together. I want, I want it to feel like we're learning this together. Like I want, I want you to to see the same aha in me from stage that I had a week ago when I had the aha moment. So it allows me to be more authentic because I'm not scripted. And I'm not, I'm not downplaying manuscripts or the importance of key phrases and saying things a certain way. But for me, I'm a more effective communicator when I can just be raw and authentic rather than scripted and tied to saying things a certain way. the other thing is it allows me to be more responsive to reading the room and the congregation and responding to what the Holy Spirit's doing in the moment. My my wife serves on one of the teams, so she'll usually hear both of my sermons if I'm in Brighton. And she will I'll ask her how they were and she says, well, you know, in second service you did this, but you didn't do it in first service. And she knows now the reason that that was true was I was responding to something the Holy Spirit was leading me to, or something I was reading in the room that says, They need I need to lean into this harder, or I need to go on this tangent for a second. Whatever it may be. So I I think it's a it's allowed me to do those two things. and I feel like the person you get on stage today is even more authentic than it was a year ago. Because I'm allowing myself to be to work the way that God created me to work. Dr. Frank Weller: At two forty two, you've got multiple preachers and Tony Johnson: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: they are all preparing. And I'm presuming that the way some of your other preachers prepare is different than the way you prepare. So how does that work? Because I know you do Tony Johnson: Correct. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: work together as a team, but then it sounds like there's also a considerable amount of work done individually. Tony Johnson: Yeah, so there it's there is some tension b because of the way I work. so we we do have a teaching team. what we will do is we'll we'll get together. We get together once a month for two hours and then another time each month for half an hour. And you the half hour is usually just touch and base, a few little details, decisions here and there. but when we when we gather, we think through, we try to be planned out on what the series is. kind of the general direction at least three months out. It's not always true. Sometimes like right now, Frank, honestly, we're we're planned out through Easter of 2028 right now. just in general concept, we know where we're going. we haven't detailed it yet, but we know where we're headed. Which means our arts team, our communications team, they can already be thinking about how to package things, how to create things. four weeks out, we want to have a map, what we call map one point And a map 1.0 is a one page that says, like sermon title, key scripture passage, what the big idea is. Like we we always have a big idea, and that is the if you get nothing else from this message, here's the one thing I want you to get from this message. And that's a phrase we usually want to be consistent across all of our campuses. Like this phrase needs to be part of your message. We also do a no-do-in-feel. And what do we want people to know? What do we want them to do? What do we want them to feel? and that helps the preachers understand how do I need to craft this message? What do I actually what's the outcomes I'm looking for? And then there's a brief description of of the series that that we're in and what happens is we use that document. That's what all of our teams use to plan off of. Because that's all the details they need, the arts team, graphic, all that stuff. then so so then you've got four weeks. To actually write the what we call the two point O's. And the two point O's are what we give to all the preachers for alignment. So it's a more detailed outline or manuscript that kind of lines out here's where we're going, and here's the key things that you need to be aligned on. And basically think of it like a flow. It's a here's the flow of the message that we're looking for. this is where the tension comes in, Frank. I'm not good at that. I I'm not good at writing in a way. That prepares another preacher to preach what I wrote. I can do it, but what I wrote's not actually helpful for me. a couple other people on our team are really good about it. Like Misha, one of our preachers, he's always got his manuscript done at least a week, if not two weeks out. so when we get into writing the two point o's, usually I will I will defer to my teammates. Because they're just more gifted at being able to do that in a way that resources our preachers better. so yeah, my my job, I'm a very firm believer that my job is not to do everything. My job is to make sure things get done well. And many times that means I'm not the one doing them. So in some of it's like writing maps. Like Misha writes a better map than I do. So every opportunity I have, I'm gonna let Misha write the map because he's he's just better than me. And that's okay. It's okay for him to be better than me. and then I'll I get to use that as well when I prepare mine. So we've got the flow. It's another benefit that there is a stage of some sermon series that I don't do in the prep. The prep is handed to me. It's it's one of the benefits of being a multi-site church the way that we are. But this entire revelation series we just finished, I wrote the entire thing. Like all ten weeks of that series I wrote every week and had to had to create that in a way that allowed other preachers to preach from. Dr. Frank Weller: So there's a sense in which you lead the team, but there are other parts of the teaching team. There are other individuals in the teaching team who are delegated more specifically according to their their their gifting. Tony Johnson: Absolutely, one hundred percent. And if if there's Dr. Frank Weller: Come. Tony Johnson: if there's a series on I don't know, family, we're probably gonna allow Mutheyu, who's our family ministry director and one of our teaching pastors, to write that one because she's the expert in the room. same with discipleship series. Misha's always going to write those because he's our discipleship guy. Vision series, I will always write the vision series because I'm the lead pastor. so we we try to gravitate toward, hey, what makes the most sense? And Revelation was one that I had spent three or four months preparing for. It made sense that I wrote that entire thing. So I take the time and I write it. Dr. Frank Weller: Tony, if I'm I'm a guy who's preaching at a church of 125 people, there is no teaching team, there's just me. Tony Johnson: Correct. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: but but you can in you can involve other voices from the congregation in in s generating the sermon, e even in in a smaller church. Tony Johnson: Absolutely. I've had in past churches I've actually had teams of people that I would regularly check in with because I actually want sometimes they have a better pulse on the congregation than I do. they've been in the community longer than I have been. They have known these people longer. And if they're trusted, I can have a good conversation with them and say, Hey, like, what do you think the congregation needs to hear? What do you think we need to hear from the from the pulpit? And they give great feedback. I I think one of the One of the negative things that I've seen in the church, big C church, is that we have co-opted the work of the church. think of it like education. Like many years ago, somewhere along the line, parents abdicated educational responsibility to the schools. I'm not saying schools are a bad thing. I'm just saying at some point parents have said, I'm gonna wash my hands of it, and it's up to the schools. I'm I'm making a general statement, obviously. in the same way I think we did that with discipleship in the church, that we have kind of washed our hands of discipleship at home and we just expected the church was going to do it all. And the church's mistake was that we took it. Like we said, yeah, we'll we'll disciple your kids. I can't disciple your kids in an hour a week. Like I can partner with you if you want to disciple your kids at home. We can be a team. I think the same is true for many areas of the church. is we've assumed that the preachers are the only ones that can create the content. Where there are some gifted, powerful, amazing people in your congregation that can be a huge resource and asset to you as you prepare for what the church needs. And I think we need to be better about tapping into that. Dr. Frank Weller: Tony, in just a minute, I want to return to something we touched on briefly in our previous episode, which is this idea of finding your voice. But before I do, I just want to say a word or two about our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College. In a 2025 study of Christian families, 92% of those surveyed indicated Christian character is one of the top three traits they're looking for in a college or university. That's why so many parents and students are choosing Great Lakes Christian College. GLCC students get a world-class education from exceptional professors who not only are masters of their academic discipline, but who are committed to living like Jesus and discipling the next generation. If an authentically Christian college is what you're looking for, check out glcc.edu for more details. In our last episode, Tony, you talked about just finding your voice as a preacher and how that's a challenge for young. Preachers, especially. And one of the ways I think that we develop our own voice is by listening to the voice of other preachers that we admire or that we want to emulate in some way. But there's a fine line between admiring an a communicator and imitating one. So how can a preacher who's working to find their own voice navigate that boundary? Tony Johnson: Yeah, I think Don't get glued in to listening to the same people all the time. I tried to make it a habit of I'll I'll listen to maybe a sermon series from a preacher, and then I'm gonna go somewhere else and start listening to someone else and not just be only hearing one type of voice. for me early on, I think I was listening to there were a couple people that I was kind of keyed in on, and those are the people that I felt like I was trying to emulate and trying to just like, well, I'll just be like that person because I hadn't spread my. my sites large enough and in a and have a a big enough pool of preachers to listen to. I think there's a there's a lot of hard work we have to do as preachers to understand ourselves. We have to know us. We have to know ourselves. I have to know what I wrestle with, what I struggle with, what I what I'm good at, and what I'm not good at. I think one of the greatest things you can do is I I think if you if you think about something that you're passionate about and know things about. And I I would encourage you if you're married, ask your spouse, say, Hey, I want to tell you about this thing and just talk about it. Just tell them about it and see how it comes off and then compare that to your preaching. And is it the same thing? Are we are we performative or are we really just proclaiming a truth that's been deeply embedded in us? Cause I think for many people, you'll see a lot of passion and excitement come out when they talk about something they're excited about. I mean, if you look, we talked a little bit last time about. You know, Michigan State versus Michigan, you know as well as I do. If I bring up that conversation with people, they're going to get passionate about it. And some of these people Dr. Frank Weller: Right now. Tony Johnson: don't they'll they'll talk stats and they'll all this stuff and they'll do it with excitement and enthusiasm and it's genuine and it's authentic. That's what we want to see from stage. I want to see that same authenticity on stage. because I think we do a disservice to people, but we don't let people see who we are. And like what God has put in us. Again, I'll go back to it. God designed you, He created you, and He called you. The best thing you can do is be you. And I think it's really knowing ourselves. And one of the ways we know ourselves is how do I communicate when I'm just sharing something I'm passionate about? And we all have something. We all have something. You Frank, I could walk into your office and be like, Hey, tell me about what Great Lakes. Without looking at anything, you would tell me passionately about Great Lakes and why it's a great institution. No problem. And I would say that is what I want to see on stage. I wanna see that same person. Dr. Frank Weller: And it takes time to develop that voice, maybe develops the wrong word, maybe discover that voice. Tony Johnson: It it well, like I said, I think I'm I think I've discovered it. I finally just in the past year, Frank, have discovered how to prepare for it. So I knew what my voice was, but I wasn't preparing in a way to let me lean into it the way I needed to lean into it. and I finally found that. And I've been in ministry for twelve almost twenty years now. So it takes it does take time. Dr. Frank Weller: But you're right, Tony. There has to be a willingness to adapt and to change and to not get locked into what's comfortable. And Tony Johnson: Absolutely. Dr. Frank Weller: and just and and particularly if you're when you move from one context to another, Tony Johnson: Mm-hmm. Dr. Frank Weller: that demands some adaptability as well. And while the voice might not change significantly, perhaps the way you're delivering does because just the context has changed. Tony Johnson: Correct. Correct. If if I go to Lansing or Lansing campus, there are more professionals there. It's just, it doesn't mean I'm again, I'm still being authentically me. I'm going to still tell the same types of stories. I'm still going to use self deprecating humor in the way that I do. but the presentation looks different there than where you you go to like a Monroe or a Saginal, where the population's the population is just different. So it's how do I connect with them but still be authentic to who? To who I am. In fact, I Dr. Frank Weller: Mm. Tony Johnson: was, I was reading a study, I think it was from 2020 from Springtide Research that talked about like thousands of people between the ages of 13 and 25 and what they were looking for. And the thing that they were looking for is relationships with trusted adults who show relational authority. I think for some of us, even myself, who like, you know, kind of grew up in church. I remember when I was a kid, I looked at the pastor, I thought the pastor was next to God. When I was a kid, I thought that's just the way it was. and then I I slowly began to realize he's he's a normal human just like me. He has just been called to this this thing. I think when you think about relational authority, you're talking about integrity, transparency, vulnerability, genuine care. We can't just rely on positional authority anymore. The fact that I am the lead pastor 242 isn't all the authority that I need. I need relational authority. Especially for like Gen Z. Like they they don't care that much about my title. What they care is have I demonstrated that I care about them? Have I have I demonstrated that like they're important to me? And I think one of the best ways we can do that is just be authentically us from stage. Like if I if I can show you my real self, we can start connecting on a more relational level. Megan Fate Marshman, if you're familiar with her, she's a She's on the teaching team at at Willow Creek. She is I think she's the best at this. I think she's one of the best communicators of our day. she does such a great job of preaching and making it feel like it's just her and me. That she's just talking to me and it's genuine and it's real. And I feel like I hang on every word that she says. And I because I feel like what she does, she builds a relational equity in the way that she presents. And it's also genuine to who she is. Like it's just it's just genuinely authentic for her. young people want to feel like they're cared about before they're open to being influenced. so if we as preachers are relying on our positional authority rather than relational authority, I think we're missing the boat for an entire generation of people. Dr. Frank Weller: There's a real challenge there to Tony Johnson: Mm-hmm. Dr. Frank Weller: contextualize the gospel, but remain authentic and true to oneself as you do that. So yeah. Tony Johnson: It it is. Absolutely is. Dr. Frank Weller: Tony, BT BP2 subscribers might not realize that your voice is the first one our listeners hear in the opener. how about that? And Tony Johnson: I discovered that the other day. Dr. Frank Weller: actually, full disclosure, I did get Tony's permission before we posted that. But then If you if you watch the watch the episode online, you'll see Tony the standing next to a monitor and underlining parts of scripture while he's teaching that. Tony, is that Tony Johnson: Right. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: kind of technology is that is that a regular part of how you preach? Tony Johnson: not anymore. So here's the thing. So Dr. Frank Weller: Okay. Tony Johnson: so we did that goodness years ago. Bill Hybels at the time at a leadership summit talked about using the big, you know, the the big notepads and actually writing on it during his message. And one of the the the points he made that stuck with me forever is people get more engaged with your creative process than they do with some slide you already created. Like when they when they watch you create the thing. So, so we That being in the back of my head, and we've seen it used in other couple other churches. We moved to the TV where I could underline, circle, write things, whatever. We did see engagement go up. Like people felt more engaged with the material. we actually shifted away from that though. we shifted away from that because I wanted to hold the Bible in my hand. I want them to see me read the Bible from a physical Bible, not from the Not from the TV. I'm not saying people need to do this, but this is what we do. and we just wanted to connect and engage in a different way. So this allows me to get away from the screen, hold a Bible in my hand. I never look at the screen unless there's a graphic I need to talk about, but I don't use the screens. It's it's me, a Bible, and you. And we're having we're having a conversation about scripture now. And one of the things we've discovered that that we feel like we're seeing in our congregation, I think in the world. Is people are just hungry for the Bible. More so than before. Frank, I have I something I never thought was going to happen is I have an arts team telling me I don't think bumpers are necessary anymore. Dr. Frank Weller: Really. Tony Johnson: Yeah. And because they're not necessary, because what the we we step back, bumpers aren't changing anybody's life. The reason we do a video bumper is so we can transition. I mean, that's that yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: That's right. Yeah. You gotta get the pulpit out and slide the music stands back. Tony Johnson: Yeah. So how do so so we said how do we better use our our our time and our skills to actually disciple people. Actually Dr. Frank Weller: That's ninety seconds, and ninety seconds makes a difference every week. Tony Johnson: It it absolutely does. It absolutely does. So we we're actually realizing that that stripping some things down is actually more beneficial. Like we, we, we package sermon just like everybody else. We'll package the sermon series and we'll get done. And people be like, it was a great series. We do a series on a book of the Bible, like the Revelation one we just did, people rave about it. We do one of the life of Joshua, just walk through scripture, people rave about it. We do one of the book of Jonah. People love it. People just want to know what the Bible says. And sometimes even even two forty two, we fall into a trap of like, well, let's package this sermon series and a cer just preach the Bible. Just open up the word of God and and preach to them and and just authentically share from your heart like what God is doing, not only in you, but what he wants to do in the people that you're you're speaking to. Dr. Frank Weller: If get a chance, Tony, go back and listen to Tyler McKenzie's second episode on the Better Preaching Podcast, where he talks about they they actually take, I think it's six or eight weeks every year, and they just go really, really deep. It's 50 to 55 minutes of just scripture. Tony Johnson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Frank Weller: which that affirms what you're saying. People are hungry for that. And then I recently had another guest where he talked about that He thinks the church is moving in a direction that's more in more analog and away from digital. People paper paper Bibles are are making a comeback. And I guess what I see in your transition might not evolution. Your evolution from underlining and circling on a monitor to just the Bible in your hand is in both of those things there's intentionality. Tony Johnson: yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Dr. Frank Weller: It's not just chasing a fad or what's next. It's no, we're we're intentionally trying to find ways to communicate and connect with people. It's not just communication, it's also connection. And I love that about what you're doing. Tony Johnson: Yeah, and that's what that's a question we're always asking ourselves is how do we better we use the word engagement. How do we get better engagement either with the the proclamation of the word or in worship or in prayer what and our next steps? Like how do we get people to be more involved in what's happening on the weekend rather than just spectators? We want you to be a participant in this this act of worship together. So open up the Bible. We like you know, Frank, one of my favorite things is we have in in a our Brighton campus. I spend about fifty percent of my time at the Brighton campus preaching. the front row, we have these young adults that come in, these Gen Zers, right? They sit in the front row. They're there every week. They're they're locked in, they're listening, but they all have their physical Bibles open and they have a notebook and they're taking notes. And it's it's a beautiful thing. So I see that and I'm like, I'm just gonna lean into that. Let let me lean into that. Let's normalize that. And And go all in for it. Dr. Frank Weller: Tony, we're out of time, but I'm gonna go over time, which I don't ever do, because I I Tony Johnson: Ha ha ha. Dr. Frank Weller: because you mentioned these Gen Zers on the front row. So you're in a room with the brightest juniors and seniors from two forty two community church. What are you saying to them to motivate them to explore vocational ministry as a calling? Tony Johnson: my goodness, that's a great question. We're actually having that conversation because we had a number of them at our CIY opportunity this past summer say that they want to go go into ministry. for me, again, I'm going to beat a drum here, Frank. Authenticity. I think if I can break down the barrier of pastoral ministry, I think it's one of the greatest things I can do. And and only I can do it. So if they get to sit in a room with the lead pastor, initially here's what I find. They're like, my gosh, I gotta sit in a room with a lead pastor. If I do it long enough and I let them see who I really am and just have real conversations with them, don't put on a show, just really me. They're no no longer like, I get to sit in the room with the lead pastor. Now they're like, yeah, I know Tony. Dr. Frank Weller: Get to hang out with Tony. Tony Johnson: Yeah, it's just Tony. And that's that's that's what I want. And now I want them to see, if he can do it. I can do this ministry thing too. and that's not to be self-deprecating at all. I'm not tearing myself down. I'm just like I I want them to see I'm a real person. Cause like I said, when I was a kid, the pastor was next to God. Like that that's the that wasn't no one told me that. That's just what I perceived. And I know there are other people that feel that way. And I just want them to know that this is real. And I you know, I look back at my own kids who all of them in their own way have strong faith. They're serving in the church. They want to go to church. They're they're doing all the things you hope your kids would do. and it's not because dad was a great preacher. It's because dad was just an authentic, real loving dad. And if I can do that for the younger generation, I think that's a huge, huge win that we miss. Dr. Frank Weller: That's it. We're out of time. Thanks, Tony Johnson: Good. Dr. Frank Weller: Tony. Tony Johnson: Absolutely. Hey, thanks for doing this, Frank. This is a great I think this podcast is a great resource for many people. I listen to all but one, I think, of the ones you've done so far. and it's it's been a blessing to me. I've got notes written over on my desk from So thanks for doing what you do. Dr. Frank Weller: that's great. Yeah, I'm look, we're just trying to be an institution of higher education that promotes preaching and moves more people into ministry because it's the gospel that's going to change the world. So all Tony Johnson: Absolutely it is. Amen to that. Dr. Frank Weller: right, I want to thank our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College. I want to thank you for listening to and supporting the Better Preaching Podcast. follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or TikTok, and you can subscribe to our podcast wherever you listen. You can also post a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. And when you do that, you help others find the Better Preaching Podcast. Join us next time for another insightful conversation because better preaching makes a bigger impact.