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Bridging Science and Survival: Dr. Mala on Trauma, Addiction & Recovery Literacy · Recovering Out Loud

• 0:24
  Doctor Mala. Hi.
• 0:27
  Hi. How are?
• 0:28
  You, Anthony? Yeah.
• 0:29
  I'm doing well, thank you. How are you?
• 0:30
  Good, good. Thank you.
• 0:32
  I'm really excited to talk to you today.
• 0:34
  I appreciate you reaching out. I, you know, I'm, I'm really, as
• 0:38
  I'm along on this, this podcast journey, I'm learning so much
• 0:41
  and more that I more than I expected to learn, to be honest
• 0:45
  with you. And it's a beautiful thing
• 0:47
  because recovery is not the same for everybody, right?
• 0:51
  And I think, you know, we were talking about that before we
• 0:53
  jumped, before we hit the record here, that there's, it's a
• 0:57
  different path for everyone. It's unique, it's deeply
• 0:59
  personal. And I'm excited to get into that
• 1:01
  with you. Me too.
• 1:03
  Thank you so much for having me. So you are currently the Chief
• 1:07
  Clinical Officer at recovery.com and I'm, you know, I've, I've
• 1:13
  spent a lot of time on this website.
• 1:14
  Actually, it's, it's really useful, really cool.
• 1:16
  Is it global or is it just North America?
• 1:19
  Nope, global. OK, that's what I thought
• 1:21
  because I'm pulling it up and I, I see all the treatment centers,
• 1:24
  you know, near me and in Canada and there's a lot on here that I
• 1:27
  didn't even know existed, right? And, you know, there's a deep
• 1:30
  dive about everyone, all the information.
• 1:32
  It's kind of like it's like it's like Airbnb for recovery, for
• 1:35
  rehab, you know, maybe not as pleasant to stay, but or or or a
• 1:39
  start, but same idea, sure. Sure.
• 1:44
  Yeah. So let's dive right into it.
• 1:46
  Do you want to start with kind of your personal experience and
• 1:49
  how you ended up in recovery? Yeah, or working in recovery.
• 1:52
  Absolutely. Yeah.
• 1:53
  So my experience, of course, started like so many in
• 1:58
  childhood where I experienced childhood trauma, and that was
• 2:04
  particularly, it was sexual trauma.
• 2:06
  And then thankfully, my my mom was an advocate for me, my dad
• 2:11
  was an advocate for me. And then, you know, I was
• 2:15
  trudging forward through just life and then ended up bumping
• 2:18
  into, unfortunately, a lot of racism and bullying in school.
• 2:25
  Growing up primarily in a Caucasian environment, I was
• 2:30
  definitely a minority at the time.
• 2:32
  And for me, it was really interesting because I didn't
• 2:36
  think of it that way. You know, I didn't think of
• 2:39
  myself as necessarily different from anyone else, but I quickly
• 2:45
  learned that I was. But that continued and and then
• 2:51
  unfortunately, Fast forward a little bit, I ended up in a very
• 2:57
  bad relationship. So experienced intimate partner
• 3:00
  violence. So yeah, Fast forward,
• 3:02
  unfortunately I was, I got involved in a bad relationship
• 3:08
  that involved intimate partner violence.
• 3:11
  It was an engagement, long term engagement.
• 3:16
  And while I was doing that or while that ended up happening, I
• 3:19
  was actually in school for getting my masters and you know,
• 3:25
  getting my masters in marriage and family psychology.
• 3:29
  And it was this really odd kind of sense of denial that a, that
• 3:36
  this was happening to me. And then once I confronted it
• 3:40
  and was like, this is wrong, you know, and came to that landed on
• 3:43
  that the shame, you know, like you're, you're in this field of
• 3:48
  healing and recovery and trying to make family systems and
• 3:51
  relationships work. And here you are, you know, so
• 3:54
  the aim that I put on myself was really massive.
• 3:58
  But thankfully, I had beautiful mentors and was able to talk to
• 4:06
  them and they, they were psychologists.
• 4:08
  So they served as my guide to basically realize that I needed
• 4:14
  treatment. I needed to be, you know,
• 4:16
  receiving services. And so I did.
• 4:18
  And between my mentors and my therapist at the time, it was so
• 4:22
  funny because I had a set of people who were very
• 4:27
  psychodynamically driven and a set of therapists who were very
• 4:30
  cognitive behavior really driven.
• 4:33
  And I got both sides and both therapeutic approaches to help
• 4:37
  me on my healing journey and knew that just the talk therapy
• 4:41
  and the processing and all of that wasn't going to be enough
• 4:45
  and that I needed more. So I was in a time at that point
• 4:51
  where integrative approaches to healing was not a thing.
• 4:55
  And to talk about something like ancillary or holistic services
• 4:59
  was kind of considered woo woo. But I realized very quickly that
• 5:05
  yoga, dance, singing, meditation were such vital parts of my
• 5:12
  upbringing and my childhood and my retreat from everything that
• 5:17
  I'd experienced that that needed to be part of my healing
• 5:20
  journey. And so I cobbled together my own
• 5:25
  recovery program in addition to receiving my therapeutic and
• 5:30
  mentorship services. And that's what got me through
• 5:35
  and I, I cherish it every single day, you know, so, so that for
• 5:41
  me, like that's when I realized the passion for wanting to
• 5:46
  really push forward integrative programming and really discuss
• 5:51
  and talk about and consult with people on what true integration
• 5:57
  of services means. And not just being a
• 6:00
  multidisciplinary treatment center, you know, but truly
• 6:03
  having connectivity between providers and all of that.
• 6:07
  So coming out of school, I was, you know, really very
• 6:13
  passionate. I found my passionate passion
• 6:16
  rather in developing programs and really singing that song of,
• 6:21
  of integration. And that's what took me down
• 6:24
  this path of my career, my career path, and not just
• 6:28
  providing one-on-one or group services, but rather doing more
• 6:34
  administrative and executive type work so that we could, you
• 6:39
  know, hit more people in a positive way.
• 6:41
  We could help more people in a positive way.
• 6:44
  And that was my mission. I realized, you know, it's like
• 6:47
  I want to be able to not just help the person sitting across
• 6:51
  from me, but I want to help the masses as much as I possibly
• 6:53
  can. And you know, how we can do that
• 6:57
  is through effective programming and and development and
• 7:00
  education. So yeah.
• 7:02
  I love that. That's amazing.
• 7:04
  Thank you for sharing that. What like to me, I, I feel like
• 7:07
  the hardest part of going through trauma and getting out
• 7:11
  of any, any trauma or any traumatic experience, right?
• 7:15
  And beginning the journey of healing and recovery is kind of
• 7:18
  like telling that first person, right?
• 7:20
  Or, or saying that first thing was that hard for you to do to
• 7:23
  kind of like that for that, that first one.
• 7:25
  How did you do that? Yeah, I mean, so not only was I
• 7:28
  living in a time where receiving therapy and psychology just as a
• 7:32
  profession was stigmatized greatly.
• 7:35
  So even when I went to my parents and I said I'm going to
• 7:38
  go major in psychology, they're like, wait, what?
• 7:41
  You know, are you OK? You know, And of course the
• 7:44
  answer to that was yes and no, you know, but the, the biggest
• 7:50
  thing is being for me, the step was first saying, yeah, I'm
• 7:54
  going into this profession, but I also can go back to a time
• 7:58
  when I, I witnessed as a child also other people being abused.
• 8:05
  And that was also traumatic for me.
• 8:07
  But I also wanted to be that person in in that moment where
• 8:13
  somebody needed to cry. I wanted to be the shoulder.
• 8:16
  I wanted to sit down and I wanted to talk, you know.
• 8:19
  So the other part of my story was I wanted to be a doctor ever
• 8:23
  since I was a kid. And I got into an accelerated
• 8:26
  program that was a Med school, you know, based program, medical
• 8:30
  program, went in and then started to get reprimanded for
• 8:34
  spending more than 5 minutes with my patients.
• 8:38
  And you know, like the, the whole thing was you gotta get in
• 8:41
  and out of there. And I was like, I can't, I can't
• 8:43
  do that. I have to sit down and I have to
• 8:45
  talk to people and I have to learn what's going on.
• 8:49
  And so I felt lost, right? And then when I found
• 8:51
  biopsychology, that was the first jaunt.
• 8:54
  My parents, that's where my parents were like, wait a
• 8:55
  second, what, you know, what can you do with that?
• 9:00
  But in general, you know, like the way culture, so many
• 9:04
  cultures bring their children up is you live in silence.
• 9:09
  There's stoicism that is considered to be a sign of
• 9:14
  strength and that reinforces silence.
• 9:17
  And if you have to talk to anybody, you're only talking to
• 9:20
  your your family members, if at all.
• 9:22
  And you don't let it go past those walls.
• 9:25
  And I knew that was wrong, you know, so and not healing and not
• 9:31
  helpful. I mean, of course you can lean
• 9:32
  on your family members, but sometimes you of course need
• 9:36
  more and their your family members aren't your therapist.
• 9:39
  So, so, you know, so I, you know, really learned early on
• 9:44
  that I'd have to go uphill, you know, to identify the stigmas
• 9:53
  and then to articulate what we need to do instead of living in
• 9:56
  them and really just pushed forward with that.
• 10:02
  And it was hard. It was, you know, it was hard.
• 10:04
  I'm so proud and glad and thankful that my parents
• 10:08
  supported me, you know, with that journey.
• 10:13
  But it's, it wasn't the last time I was going to face it.
• 10:16
  You know, so many toxic workplaces that reinforce the
• 10:23
  same, so many other patients that I've seen that have
• 10:27
  experienced the same for cultural reasons.
• 10:29
  And not just because they're from, you know, my marginalized
• 10:34
  or minority cultures. Any, just the family culture,
• 10:37
  you know, doesn't matter the ethnicity or the background.
• 10:41
  It's really just what you're establishing in that nucleus.
• 10:44
  So, so I saw stigma time and time again.
• 10:49
  I experienced it time and time again and it just naturally
• 10:53
  became part of my lexicon and my MO for for saying no.
• 11:00
  We're going to talk about it. You know, it's going to be
• 11:04
  difficult, but we're going to talk about it and we need to
• 11:07
  talk about it to be able to make any type of progress.
• 11:10
  So yeah, it was hard and it still is.
• 11:13
  There are moments where it's hard.
• 11:14
  And because also from a professional standpoint, you
• 11:18
  know, being a provider, one of the things that providers have
• 11:22
  been taught is you keep it all, you know, departmentalized.
• 11:27
  You don't share. You know, I was brought up in an
• 11:29
  era where sharing experiences was not part of what we did from
• 11:35
  a therapeutic standpoint. And that was reinforced in my
• 11:39
  programming. And then it started to change
• 11:41
  where, Nope, sharing can be helpful, you know, so that
• 11:45
  started to evolve, which was so great.
• 11:47
  And I'm so glad that that realization occurred.
• 11:50
  But it wasn't until recently that even from a professional
• 11:54
  standpoint, I felt like I could safely say, here's my story,
• 12:01
  this is what it looks like, and just be completely blunt about
• 12:07
  it all. Yeah, I from from my standpoint,
• 12:11
  I can't tell you how much it's helped me that I've had both.
• 12:14
  I've had as a patient, I've had therapists that share very
• 12:17
  openly about their experience, their lived experience, whether
• 12:21
  it be with addiction, mostly with addiction or or any trauma,
• 12:24
  but mostly with addiction. And then I've had the like stone
• 12:27
  cold psychologist where it's like I'm talking to like AI
• 12:31
  almost that's trying to like figure me out and fix me.
• 12:34
  And I can't tell you how much it's helped me to have that that
• 12:37
  shared lived experience because I just feel more comfortable
• 12:41
  sharing about my my stuff, right.
• 12:44
  And so, yeah, that's what I was. I was gonna ask you that too is
• 12:47
  like the importance of of lived experience.
• 12:50
  And I'm really happy that that shift happened.
• 12:52
  What what do you think caused that shift from you know you
• 12:54
  don't say anything to now we can we can share openly with.
• 12:58
  Patients, I mean, like you said, you experienced both, right, You
• 13:01
  know, so it's still with us. And, you know, one school of
• 13:05
  thought is that this shift happened because there was
• 13:10
  evidence showing that sharing made healing more accessible,
• 13:17
  right? That's what I've experienced
• 13:19
  time and time again. You know, we're not providers,
• 13:24
  are not gods. Yeah.
• 13:27
  We're human beings. Right.
• 13:28
  We're human beings. We're, you know, like there is.
• 13:31
  And the other factor here that I think just really sums it up
• 13:34
  beautifully is that there is healing to be had in connection
• 13:38
  and how you're building that connection and that rapport is
• 13:43
  going to make a difference. Now, I will say this, I went
• 13:46
  into marriage and family psychology.
• 13:48
  That was my master's degree and then my psychology degree.
• 13:52
  My doctorate was in psych and clinical psych and educational
• 13:55
  psych. And when I did my master's at
• 14:00
  the time going into the profession, I wasn't married and
• 14:04
  I wasn't engaged. Then I ended up in my
• 14:06
  relationship and that's where I was, you know, the intimate
• 14:09
  partner violence was happening. It was an engagement, blah,
• 14:11
  blah, blah. But in sessions, you know, a lot
• 14:15
  of times, especially during that time, it would be like, well,
• 14:17
  you're not married. How do you know?
• 14:18
  How do you know it? And even when you know, so one
• 14:22
  of my other specialties is military psychology, working
• 14:25
  with the military. Well, you haven't been on the
• 14:26
  field. How do you know?
• 14:28
  Right, You're right. I don't know.
• 14:30
  Teach me. Tell me.
• 14:32
  Tell me what your experiences are.
• 14:34
  So I believe that lived experience is definitely
• 14:38
  helpful, but it's not mandatory to be able to help someone on
• 14:44
  their journey. Yeah, yeah, I, I love that
• 14:47
  there's lots of, you know, techniques and and ways that you
• 14:50
  can, you know, assist and talk therapy, right.
• 14:52
  So, you know, you don't have to be exactly lived the same
• 14:56
  experiences. It's it's a good point.
• 14:57
  Yeah. What in your experience?
• 15:00
  What what what makes some addicts or Alcoholics?
• 15:07
  What's the kind of like corroding thread that keeps
• 15:11
  people, gets people sober and keeps them sober?
• 15:14
  So what's the corroding thread that?
• 15:18
  Yeah, maybe I said that wrong. The what's, what's kind of the
• 15:21
  congruency, like what's the what works for people that stay
• 15:26
  successful in recovery? Yeah.
• 15:28
  In my experience and what I've seen, it's consistency, it's
• 15:34
  knowing that they have a really good therapeutic and non
• 15:38
  therapeutic support system and it's being able to be outside of
• 15:44
  the therapeutic system and having elements of healing that
• 15:49
  are still therapeutic, but they're not considered
• 15:51
  necessarily therapy, you know, so that kind of like enhances
• 15:57
  the quality of life, anything that enhances quality of life.
• 16:00
  So what I've seen is consistency in making sure that you have
• 16:04
  your therapeutic, you know, alliances with people, your
• 16:08
  providers, your groups, whether that's a treatment center that
• 16:12
  you even graduated from and you keep up with their alumni
• 16:15
  program, you know, like that kind of a thing.
• 16:17
  Or even if you decide not to do treatment center and you're with
• 16:21
  just your providers, you know, your PCP, your specialists, you
• 16:26
  know, physicians, your mental health providers, whoever, peer
• 16:30
  support specialists are amazing as well and help on the recovery
• 16:34
  journey too. You have to have a system that
• 16:37
  works for you. You have to identify that
• 16:39
  system. And when people find it and they
• 16:41
  get into that groove and then they create that sense of kind
• 16:44
  of structure and discipline for themselves.
• 16:46
  That's what I've seen be most successful.
• 16:49
  Yeah, this idea of, of connection, right outside
• 16:52
  community connection. Yeah, I've, I've seen that for
• 16:55
  me too. Every time I've relapsed, I can
• 16:57
  say that I was, I was isolated before the incident, right?
• 17:01
  I was keeping things to myself. I had these great ideas about
• 17:04
  how I was going to fix my insides and I wasn't really
• 17:07
  bouncing them off my mentors, off people in recovery, off
• 17:10
  family members. You know, I, I kind of, I got
• 17:13
  this right, This kind of ego inflation was happening.
• 17:18
  Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about
• 17:20
  like types of treatment centers and you know what, what kind of
• 17:23
  types of treatment centers there are?
• 17:25
  Sure. So there's so many and I'm
• 17:28
  gonna, this is where I'm gonna plug in like recovery.com.
• 17:31
  This is a tool that I wish I had when I first started in being a
• 17:37
  provider, you know, and Oh my goodness.
• 17:40
  So anyway, let me summarize this.
• 17:42
  So recovery.com is basically a beautiful place where you can
• 17:45
  find treatment, any type of treatment that you need.
• 17:47
  You can filter to your insurance, You can filter to
• 17:50
  your locations that you're preferring to be in, you know,
• 17:53
  as part of your journey and then start your search from there.
• 17:57
  There are lots of different types of treatment centers and
• 18:02
  some are traditional 12 step focused, while others take more
• 18:07
  of a hybridized approach and will say, yeah, you have 12 step
• 18:10
  as an option. But there are other approaches
• 18:12
  that we can take and we can customize the programming for
• 18:15
  you. There are also, of course,
• 18:19
  treatment centers are gonna offer things like inpatient
• 18:21
  services, outpatient services, residential programs, detoxing
• 18:26
  programs, and even sober living to help with transitioning.
• 18:31
  So there's a lot of different options out there, but what
• 18:35
  connects all of them is again kind of like that option to
• 18:38
  either engage in the non 12 step or 12 step approaches.
• 18:41
  And you know, the other element is what's used for therapeutic
• 18:48
  options. So you know, evidence based
• 18:51
  behavioral therapies are definitely what most centers are
• 18:54
  going to utilize. There will usually be some type
• 18:58
  of a holistic or integrative approach to alternative
• 19:02
  therapies as well, like yoga, acupuncture, massage,
• 19:08
  mindfulness based relapse prevention and so on and so
• 19:13
  forth. Art and adventure therapy, music
• 19:17
  therapy are also extremely helpful and many places will
• 19:21
  also offer that. And then there's SMART Recovery.
• 19:26
  And SMART Recovery is self management and recovery
• 19:29
  training. So it's a kind of secular
• 19:32
  cognitive behavioral approach that focuses on empowerment and
• 19:36
  self-reliance and integrates in like practical tools that you
• 19:40
  can apply to your life. And a lot of outpatient and
• 19:45
  hybridized programs will offer SMART Recovery as an option as
• 19:51
  well. So yeah, there's a lot out
• 19:54
  there. Yeah, the point is, you know,
• 19:57
  you got to find what works for you and, and what gets you
• 20:00
  connected and outside of yourself, right.
• 20:03
  Because this addiction thing, it's, it's a very selfish, in my
• 20:06
  experience, it's a very selfish disease that, you know, I'm
• 20:09
  always looking for, for ways to kind of pleasure me and, and
• 20:13
  what's the connection between like pleasure seeking dopamine,
• 20:17
  serotonin, oxytocin and, and addiction?
• 20:21
  Yeah, I mean, I actually don't always think about it that way.
• 20:24
  I think the reason why we're dopamine seeking or pleasure
• 20:28
  seeking in that sense is because we're trying to Band-Aid or get
• 20:35
  through what we're really hurting about.
• 20:38
  So the, the heart of addiction, any kind is some kind of pain
• 20:48
  that you're trying to figure out mask, Band-Aid, you know, and
• 20:54
  eventually hopefully work through, you know, So it, you
• 21:00
  know, you, you mentioned right now like it's selfish, it's
• 21:03
  pleasure saying well, because you're trying to heal, you know,
• 21:07
  and I would actually encourage, don't be so hard on yourself,
• 21:10
  you know, like this is this is really about figuring out what's
• 21:14
  what's going on, what's hurting you, you know, Yeah.
• 21:19
  And I want to, I want to clarify too, that, you know, the trauma
• 21:23
  experienced is it doesn't have to be this.
• 21:25
  I've learned this. It doesn't have to be this big
• 21:27
  thing. You know, my childhood was this
• 21:30
  or I, my parents treated me poorly or they never showed like
• 21:33
  I had an amazing childhood, right.
• 21:34
  And nobody in my family that I know of had or suffered with any
• 21:39
  addiction or alcoholism issues. But to your point, yeah, I was,
• 21:42
  I was trying to escape pain and and mask the way I've, you know,
• 21:45
  sort of felt about myself. Right.
• 21:47
  Yeah. Do you have any?
• 21:50
  I love data, I love science, I love statistics.
• 21:54
  And we were talking a bit about this offline.
• 21:55
  And, you know, I love learning about new things and there's
• 21:58
  always stuff going on, right? So do you have anything that you
• 22:01
  can share around this topic? Absolutely.
• 22:04
  So we're doing a lot of new research at recovery.com and one
• 22:09
  thing that we do have is so many people are visiting our site and
• 22:13
  they reach out with questions and have inquiries about
• 22:17
  different things. And one of the things that we've
• 22:19
  seen for sure is that there is a big need for treatment in
• 22:27
  substance use and for mental health conditions and that
• 22:30
  really it everything is running together, you know?
• 22:34
  So remember that when you're looking for treatment for
• 22:39
  substance use, it doesn't just have to address the substance in
• 22:43
  question and that use or that cycle that you're in that there
• 22:48
  are those underlying concerns and issues that you need to
• 22:53
  address. And our data is showing us that.
• 22:55
  So people who are coming to our site, you know, we've had over
• 22:59
  25% looking for specifically substance use treatment and over
• 23:05
  15% of our visitors are looking for both.
• 23:09
  But I account that number, the over 15% to be focusing on one
• 23:17
  or the other and not realizing that it runs parallel to one
• 23:21
  another. So very interesting information
• 23:26
  there. Out of all of that, one of the
• 23:28
  things that we've seen is trauma is really a big pull and a
• 23:33
  driving factor for mental health conditions leading people to
• 23:37
  seek help and then followed by depression, anxiety and
• 23:43
  suicidality, as well as the want to be able to help partners is
• 23:48
  really big. So, so we've got some pretty
• 23:51
  interesting trends this in this past year.
• 23:54
  This is data from this past year 2024 made to current that are
• 24:00
  showing us these trends right now.
• 24:04
  Interesting. The the partner thing is, is
• 24:07
  interesting to me because that's why I spend a lot of time on
• 24:11
  like forums online, you know, Reddit, one of them, there's an
• 24:14
  addiction Reddit that I like to read and and kind of comment on
• 24:17
  when people have questions and about experience.
• 24:20
  And I'm not a doctor or scientist.
• 24:21
  I don't try to be. I did when I was in my
• 24:24
  addiction. I tried to be a doctor by
• 24:25
  managing my chemicals and ADHD, but I know I can't play that
• 24:30
  role anymore. It doesn't work for me and I'm
• 24:33
  not a doctor. So, but the, what I see a lot
• 24:36
  from people I find interesting is there's a, there's a common
• 24:39
  theme around like what is my partner on, right?
• 24:43
  He's a, he's exhibiting, she's exhibiting this, this and this.
• 24:46
  I'm like, I'm scared. What what's involved here?
• 24:48
  Are we dealing with fentanyl? Are we dealing with meth?
• 24:51
  He's doing this, this and that. She's doing this, this and that.
• 24:54
  So I find that that's interesting and and family, it
• 24:57
  plays such a huge role in this in this process.
• 25:00
  What do you think about family and support systems and how
• 25:04
  essential they are to someone's recovery?
• 25:06
  Yeah. I mean, it's gonna vary from
• 25:08
  person to person, but when possible and if in a good place,
• 25:14
  I would say is that there's two ways of looking at it.
• 25:18
  One, if there's healing that is needed to happen and resolution
• 25:21
  that needed is needed to happen, as you know, part of the family
• 25:25
  unit, then I highly recommend that because that's part of
• 25:28
  addressing those underlying issues may be a concern, but
• 25:32
  that's going to be at your pace, you know, and with the guidance
• 25:35
  of your therapist when you're ready to do that.
• 25:38
  But if you feel good with your family unit, like you mentioned
• 25:41
  yourself, like no issues with family, you love them, great
• 25:44
  childhood, etcetera, then having them as part of your support
• 25:49
  system right off the bat and integrating them into
• 25:52
  psychoeducation is essential and it's really, really good.
• 25:56
  Psychoeducation in general is really a good idea for anybody
• 25:59
  that you consider your family, whether that's the family you
• 26:01
  were born into or the family that you choose and creating,
• 26:06
  you know, a system that you know is going to support you and be
• 26:09
  like, OK, here's all the education.
• 26:11
  This is what I'm going through, this is what I need.
• 26:14
  Weaving them into your sessions as a, you know, with family
• 26:17
  sessions, group sessions, whatever.
• 26:19
  There are also separate groups that family members can attend
• 26:24
  as part of treatment programs that are really good and very
• 26:28
  helpful that I highly recommend too.
• 26:31
  Because, you know, as the support system or as the person
• 26:34
  outside of the person who's recovering, you're also going to
• 26:37
  be going through a whole bunch of emotions and it's important
• 26:40
  to process those. So I can't recommend, you know,
• 26:43
  getting your own support as well enough.
• 26:45
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, A common thing I hear and I, I experience this
• 26:49
  too, is I go to rehab, I heal or I do a, a, a large part of, of
• 26:54
  my healing journey. I come home and I'm like ready
• 26:57
  to go. I'm, I'm fixed, you know, let's
• 26:59
  go. Everybody.
• 27:00
  I'm I'm sorry for doing everything, but I'm back and you
• 27:03
  come home and it's like you left a tornado in the house, right.
• 27:06
  And everyone's kind of cleaning the pieces and they haven't
• 27:08
  really done the healing yet. Right.
• 27:10
  So my treatment center offered a family program.
• 27:13
  And now my mom is a proud, like, head of the aftercare for the
• 27:18
  family. Yeah, she loves it.
• 27:19
  She. Loves it.
• 27:20
  How wonderful. That's so great.
• 27:23
  And I think she's come to a point now where she's realized,
• 27:26
  much like myself, that a lot of this healing journey is in
• 27:30
  helping other people. You've realized that too.
• 27:33
  There's a huge, it's kind of like teaching being a teacher.
• 27:36
  And you, you learn the, the, the content, the, you know, better,
• 27:41
  faster. You learn more about the content
• 27:43
  by teaching others. I've, I've come to the
• 27:45
  realization that I need to help other people to get outside of
• 27:47
  myself. And I think my mom has too.
• 27:49
  She could. She helps a lot of people, you
• 27:51
  know, a lot of family members. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:54
  That's so great. Yeah.
• 27:54
  I know there's definitely healing to be had when you're
• 27:57
  ready in being able to be of service to others.
• 28:00
  And it definitely was part of my own journey from the beginning.
• 28:05
  So I can relate to that as well. Yeah.
• 28:09
  Yeah, you talk, you talk a lot about recovery literacy.
• 28:12
  Yes, can. You do you want to describe what
• 28:14
  what that is and why it's important.
• 28:15
  Yeah. So recovery literacy, I mean,
• 28:18
  this is about educating as many people as we possibly can to
• 28:23
  help them along their journey, no matter what that journey is
• 28:27
  and where they're at on that journey or what role they're
• 28:30
  playing on the journey, right? So whether that's parents, you
• 28:35
  know, coming with questions about their loved ones, their
• 28:38
  children, you know, their spouse, family, you know,
• 28:41
  marriages and relationships coming to ask about their
• 28:44
  spouses, whether that's instructors, teachers coming and
• 28:47
  saying, how do I educate my students about this?
• 28:50
  Whether that's you on the journey going, I don't even know
• 28:54
  where to begin. How do I get from maybe thinking
• 28:57
  that I don't need treatment to answering questions that I have
• 29:01
  about the concerns that I have and figuring out that I do need
• 29:04
  to get to treatment? You know, so recovery literacy
• 29:07
  is about really providing education across all walks for
• 29:11
  all people, no matter where they're at, so that we can move
• 29:14
  from contemplation to action. I love that.
• 29:19
  That's amazing. So you've, you've mentioned
• 29:23
  you've done a lot of work with military and I presume like PTSD
• 29:27
  what, and indigenous communities as well, LGBTQ plus populations.
• 29:33
  What, what, what, why don't you tell us what is PTSD first of
• 29:36
  all? And then like, how does somebody
• 29:39
  heal from that or begin to heal from that?
• 29:41
  Yeah, I mean, most Simply put, post traumatic stress disorder
• 29:45
  can be experienced. You don't have to be in the
• 29:48
  military to experience it. Trauma, you know, anything that
• 29:53
  that has affected you negatively, that has basically
• 29:56
  long lasting repercussions that make it difficult for you to go
• 30:02
  through your day-to-day would constitute a potential diagnosis
• 30:07
  of the PTSDI had to go through. And I still go through my own,
• 30:13
  you know, that's part of my current recovery journey is
• 30:16
  navigating some of those symptoms that come back from my
• 30:20
  PTSD related to the traumas that I have encountered.
• 30:25
  And they will get, there are triggers that are involved with
• 30:28
  them that you have to navigate as well.
• 30:29
  And, and, you know, try to learn about and figure out and then
• 30:32
  have a good toolbox ready to go to be able to, you know, apply
• 30:37
  and get through whatever it is that you're feeling.
• 30:40
  So anybody can experience PTSD and how it progresses is also
• 30:48
  unique to each person. Is it something that you
• 30:51
  necessarily heal from? I always say healing is
• 30:55
  consistent. It's a very, it's not a linear
• 30:58
  journey. Recovery is not a linear
• 31:00
  journey. It is lifelong, you know, even
• 31:04
  with something like grief, right, which can also be a
• 31:08
  component of PTSD, You know, you one day it'll be like, I feel
• 31:14
  great, this is good. And then tomorrow it'll be like
• 31:17
  you feel like you're back at day one, you know, because of
• 31:21
  whatever triggers might have occurred.
• 31:22
  So to be able to understand that your recovery journey is going
• 31:27
  to be unique to you is essential.
• 31:29
  And because it's unique to you to have your own unique tools,
• 31:35
  and you know, whether that's, again, the compilation of
• 31:38
  providers, your own practices, you know, your support system,
• 31:42
  your sense of connection is going to make a difference.
• 31:46
  Yeah, the, the most important step is, you know, reaching out,
• 31:49
  right? Nobody, nobody can read my mind
• 31:51
  and I have to ask for help. And that was the hardest part
• 31:54
  for sure. Absolutely.
• 31:55
  Yeah. Where do you see mental health
• 31:58
  advocacy and, and the future of mental health?
• 32:02
  Maybe the stigma. I, I, I, you know, I used to
• 32:04
  think that the stigma around addiction and, and mental health
• 32:07
  would one day there was a possibility that it gets kind of
• 32:11
  demolished. I don't think that that's true
• 32:13
  anymore. I think it's, it's lessening and
• 32:16
  it's getting better as time goes on.
• 32:18
  But where do you see the future of all this?
• 32:20
  You know, that's such a great question.
• 32:23
  I like I said to you, I think, you know, like when I first
• 32:27
  started in this field, we, you know, psychology and
• 32:31
  psychologists were stigmatized. It was actually, I'm also a
• 32:34
  professor and one of the things that would actually show up in
• 32:38
  our textbooks for undergrad and that psych one O 1 class was the
• 32:43
  journey, the historical journey of what psychology was, where it
• 32:50
  started now. So I can literally pinpoint in
• 32:55
  media where it started to shift. OK, You can see it in movies.
• 33:01
  So we had Frasier come out in the 2000s or, you know, early
• 33:06
  1990s somewhere there. And that's when the concept of
• 33:12
  being a shrink started to turn over to psychologist and that
• 33:19
  being revered. So I'm actually really thankful
• 33:23
  for that show because quickly in, you know, in the timeline of
• 33:27
  of psychology, that is what helped with the the initial
• 33:31
  destigmatization of psychologists and psychology as
• 33:35
  a profession. And what I loved also about that
• 33:39
  show is that he was what he was a radio talk show host.
• 33:43
  So he was putting it out there to the masses and talking about
• 33:47
  what we were experiencing psychology, which truly is a
• 33:50
  subject that, you know, is in our day-to-day life and how we
• 33:54
  function and how we behave and how we react to things.
• 33:57
  And he was putting it out there to the masses.
• 33:59
  And that also helped with destigmatizing the profession.
• 34:04
  So we started to go, you know, from that movement into still
• 34:09
  having to navigate silence and stoicism, as I mentioned.
• 34:14
  And I feel that in the past, you know, decade or so, we have made
• 34:19
  huge strides to being able to talk about things that we
• 34:25
  haven't been able to talk about before and embrace mental health
• 34:28
  and healing and recovery in huge force.
• 34:32
  And I'm so thankful for that. Unfortunately, though, with a
• 34:37
  lot of what's going on in the world, I'm seeing a regression.
• 34:41
  There is an increase in fear. There's, you know, the fear of,
• 34:46
  again, even saying that you need help, the fear of being able to
• 34:51
  identify in certain ways, whether that's for your race,
• 34:55
  ethnicity, gender, etcetera. It's starting to come back
• 34:58
  again, and I'm seeing a resurgence of silence as a
• 35:02
  result. And that concerns me, although I
• 35:07
  will say while that is happening, because we kind of
• 35:10
  had this push of being able to, you know, break the silence.
• 35:15
  There are so many more people who are true advocates and we're
• 35:20
  seeing so much more movement and energy in being able to have
• 35:25
  recovery based services that I remain very hopeful.
• 35:30
  So I mean, the future of mental health, from my view, it's not
• 35:35
  just clinical, it's collective, and it needs to be deeply
• 35:39
  integrative. And I think we can move forward
• 35:44
  towards a model and a system and a collective way of thinking
• 35:48
  where we're not just treating symptoms, but we're looking at
• 35:53
  transformation of our systems, the system that is most
• 35:57
  immediately in front of us within our family, all the way
• 36:00
  to our community, all the way to our nation, all the way to our
• 36:05
  world, Right. So, you know, my hope is that we
• 36:08
  can continue to push forward. Yeah.
• 36:12
  Yeah, it's true. I would say to like with with
• 36:15
  social media, you're seeing a lot more, you know, these these
• 36:19
  influencers that are in sobriety and they're kind of making it
• 36:22
  look cool, right? And I think that that's
• 36:24
  important. You know, say what you want
• 36:25
  about social media, there's a lot of pros and cons to it.
• 36:28
  But I think the idea of, I don't know, a 20 something or, you
• 36:33
  know, 18 year old that's struggling and doesn't know what
• 36:35
  to do, seeing this kind of, you know, person that's looks like
• 36:39
  they're having fun in recovery and looks like he's making it
• 36:41
  kind of cool, if you will. I think that that's very
• 36:44
  important. You know, and I know a few here
• 36:46
  in Toronto that I've met just in my time of doing this, this
• 36:49
  podcast. And I think that that's
• 36:51
  important. Yeah, it's very important.
• 36:53
  And I think it's important to identify also kind of like the
• 36:57
  two sides to it. I've actually worked with a lot
• 37:00
  of athletes and musicians and political figures as well.
• 37:03
  And one of the things that is a common theme, unfortunately, is
• 37:09
  that it's almost a prerequisite for you to have an issue and
• 37:14
  then be in recovery, you know, and that that can then gets
• 37:19
  classified as you being in the in Group or now you, you are
• 37:24
  truly one of us, you know, like so almost a prerequisite to be a
• 37:28
  musician or to be a political figure, an athlete.
• 37:32
  And I want to caution everyone to that, you know, so while I'm
• 37:35
  very thankful to social media and influencers for being able
• 37:40
  to share their story and destigmatize, for sure, I don't
• 37:46
  want people to think that this is a cool thing to do and a
• 37:50
  prerequisite in order for me to be part of any type of, you
• 37:55
  know, classification of group, you know, whether it's a
• 37:58
  profession or otherwise. Yeah, yeah.
• 38:01
  And I definitely don't recommend.
• 38:03
  Yeah, I, I, I'll tell you right now, you know, it's a
• 38:07
  progressive disease. And I, I'm a, you know, I'm an
• 38:11
  advocate of, of that it does get worse.
• 38:14
  You know, when you go back out, you pick up where you left off
• 38:16
  it and it does get worse. So I don't recommend that to
• 38:19
  anybody. What are some tools and insights
• 38:26
  that somebody can walk away with?
• 38:27
  You know, they don't know what to do.
• 38:28
  They're struggling, they're feeling alone.
• 38:31
  You know, nobody gets them. What's something they can do
• 38:33
  right now? Go get help.
• 38:38
  And if you need something that's, you know, private, you
• 38:43
  know, that needs to be quiet for you to figure things out again,
• 38:48
  you know, starting at a place like recovery.com is not a bad
• 38:51
  place to start because it's going to give you all the
• 38:53
  education that you need and hopefully answer a lot of
• 38:56
  questions that you might have. But more than that, also like do
• 38:59
  the search, you know, find the support system.
• 39:03
  That's the most important part is like, find the support system
• 39:06
  that works for you, your friends, your family.
• 39:09
  Saying this is what I need to do.
• 39:11
  I need help getting there, reaching out to a provider,
• 39:15
  whether it's your PCP, because you've got 1, you know, and
• 39:18
  saying, I, I don't know where to begin.
• 39:20
  Please help. You know, like that, just saying
• 39:23
  that first line is so important and so crucial.
• 39:27
  I can't recommend that enough. And it will, it will be
• 39:31
  challenging, but it will have major rewards in the long run.
• 39:37
  So get the help, yeah? Yeah, awesome.
• 39:42
  OK, I want to get some lightning round questions from you Sure.
• 39:45
  You know, say the first thing that comes to mind or or maybe.
• 39:49
  Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, sure.
• 39:50
  Right now, what's one word that defines recovery?
• 39:53
  01 word that defines recovery. That's a hard one.
• 39:59
  Yeah. You got me right at the
• 40:00
  beginning when he comes in my mind.
• 40:02
  That's why it's like that. Healing connection.
• 40:07
  Yeah. Love it.
• 40:08
  Yeah. What's a favorite book or
• 40:11
  resource for trauma education? Bessel van der Cokes, The body
• 40:15
  keeps score. Yeah.
• 40:16
  Oh, I've heard that. I've heard that's good.
• 40:18
  Yeah. The body keeps score.
• 40:20
  I gotta read that. Really good, yeah.
• 40:21
  My therapist recommended it to me.
• 40:23
  Maybe I should read it. Yeah.
• 40:24
  You can do it on Audible too, so if you need to listen to it,
• 40:27
  it's really good. Yeah, yeah.
• 40:30
  What's a healing tool that you swear by?
• 40:32
  Oh, meditation for me is my non negotiable.
• 40:35
  Yeah, yeah. That's a good one.
• 40:39
  And then finally, what is the most misunderstood thing about
• 40:45
  brain health? Well, I mean, we hear it in the
• 40:49
  language. You're so crazy, right?
• 40:54
  Be and that's part of the stigma that I feel we've, you know, had
• 40:58
  to overcome in that timeline of, you know, psychology as a as a
• 41:02
  profession and as a field, people have equated brain health
• 41:07
  to something separate. But it's no different than going
• 41:11
  to the cardiologist and get treatment for your heart issues.
• 41:16
  Your brain is an organ in your body.
• 41:18
  So you know, when we're talking about brain health and we're
• 41:21
  talking about mental health, it it really needs to be no
• 41:24
  different in our minds as going to the PCP or going to the
• 41:28
  specialist for an ear, nose, throat problem or a heart
• 41:31
  problem or a gut problem, because the brain is literally
• 41:36
  what's keeping you alive. So brain health is vital and you
• 41:40
  know, it needs to be considered as part of the human body
• 41:44
  treatment. So mental health and Wellness is
• 41:47
  part of that. Yeah, yeah.
• 41:49
  And and this, you know, this idea of rub some dirt on it or,
• 41:53
  you know, don't show emotion. I think, you know, as men,
• 41:56
  particularly in my experience, that's been kind of the way we
• 41:59
  were brought up as you know, you just kind of rub some dirt on it
• 42:02
  and move on, right. You don't talk about it like you
• 42:04
  said. And then there's this family
• 42:06
  dynamic too. I like that you said that at the
• 42:07
  beginning too. I wanted to comment on that, you
• 42:09
  know, no, but we don't talk about the family to people
• 42:12
  outside the family. And it's not culture specific.
• 42:15
  It's not, it's family specific to your point, right.
• 42:18
  So yeah, the help is out there if you're willing, and all it
• 42:24
  takes is that one first step. Yeah, absolutely.
• 42:27
  Absolutely, yeah. Amazing.
• 42:29
  Thank you so much for your time today, Doctor.
• 42:31
  I appreciate it. I learned a lot.
• 42:33
  There's a lot of good information in there.
• 42:34
  And where can we find you at or where can we find?
• 42:38
  I mean, recovery.com is pretty easy and straightforward.
• 42:41
  Yeah, it took Me 2 seconds. Absolutely.
• 42:43
  Yeah, recovery.com, beautiful resource for me personally, My
• 42:47
  social handle is at the official Doctor Mala.
• 42:50
  My personal website isdoctormala.net.
• 42:54
  Yeah, perfect. Amazing.
• 42:56
  Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me,
• 42:58
  Anthony. It was a pleasure.
• 42:59
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• 43:02
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• 43:05
  The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
• 43:08
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• 43:11
  This content is not a substitute for professional medical advice,
• 43:14
  addiction treatment, or therapy. If you or someone you know is
• 43:18
  struggling with addiction, please consult A licensed
• 43:20
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• 43:24
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