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E41 Stop Bolting on AI with Gareth Jenkins · Stronger Business Together

• Granger Forson: So this is the Stronger Business Together podcast where business owners learn from other business owners. No theory, no gurus, just real journeys and overcoming real hurdles. Today I'm joined by Gareth Jenkins who runs Charis AI and like every owner he's in that middle of building things, fixing things and growing something that really matters to him. So Gareth, welcome. Gareth Jenkins: Thanks very much, Granger. It's lovely to be here. Granger Forson: Fantastic. Well, let's get on with Act 1 now, the business. So in plain English, what does your business do? Gareth Jenkins: So I'm building an AI agency and basically we help small and medium sized businesses to implement AI but in a way that is structured and from a business first perspective rather than an AI first perspective. So I've come from quite a long business background, a lot of which has been in process development and business process implementation. lean process implementations. And so that forms the foundation of how I bring AI to the party. The performance is actually the product, not AI being the product. Granger Forson: Yeah, fantastic. Being a lean person myself, my background's in lean and continuous improvement. Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. Granger Forson: Yeah, since 1994 I first started doing those things. So yeah, very long time ago. So I'd fully appreciate that. Gareth Jenkins: It's a longer than I have, but I have had some good experiences, yeah. Granger Forson: yeah, AI is the buzzword, AI is out there, but maybe we're struggling with it and understanding it. So who do you love helping then and what are they typically trying to deal with when they're thinking about AI? Gareth Jenkins: So I like helping the businesses that I've of the size that I've worked in previously. So I've run my own business as a solo entrepreneur and I've also worked in slightly larger businesses. I've worked in really big businesses as well. you know, for me, the sweet spot is the medium sized businesses up to sort of 250 people is probably the biggest I'm dealing with at the moment. And They are struggling, I think a lot of people are struggling with how do I actually implement AI in a way that I can get a measurable ROI. I I obviously know what I've spent, but how do I understand what I'm getting back for that? And is it a worthwhile investment? And many people want to know that upfront. So, know, quantify the ROI before they jump in. And they may have experimented in a number of areas. They may have done a bit of you know, content creation would be one that often people, know, drafting emails, writing blog posts, those kinds of things. But instead of doing it in a piecemeal way in order to get a real ROI, you need to implement it in a structured way. And I think a lot of people are struggling with that. They know they have to do something. It's just a question of what and how and everything's moving so quickly and it changes overnight. So where do I start? Granger Forson: Yes, doesn't it just? Yes, there's always a newer model out and there are always providers saying their models are better than everybody else's model and the latest model. Yes, absolutely. It is all moving fast. Gareth Jenkins: Yeah exactly right. Granger Forson: know, where do we start? Yeah, no, can definitely. understand that feeling myself and how we use AI. There was a lot of conversation between my co-founder and I around exactly that. yeah, so really useful. Businesses need it. They need that help. They need that starting. So what about your business? When did it start? What was that original spark? Gareth Jenkins: Well, original, so it started in February of this year. Although I have, I have had the actual company running for a while. I was a business coach for a while. I then went and did a job for a year and back in sort of old familiar territory running operations and managing people, managing processes, implementing processes to try and turn a business around, putting structures in place, that kind of thing. And then I finished that up. at the end of January. But during that period of employment and even prior to that, I had been doing various things with AI and of course AI is moving so quickly. So when I look at what I was doing two years ago, two and a half years ago, I'm thinking, well, that wasn't very impressive. But of course now the technology has developed so much that we can do so much more. But really the spark for me came from just enjoying the ability to do things that were mundane and boring and required, but not extremely value adding, if you like. So admin and those Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: kind of things and bringing consistency to businesses as well. If you can automate a process, you bring a level of consistency to a business. So I Granger Forson: Mm. Gareth Jenkins: enjoyed that aspect of it. I enjoyed creating and building things that work well. So that's kind of my thing is, you know, I like. to have it work really well and be finely tuned and really, you So, putting all of that together and layering that on top of my business experience and lean process, it kind of all just fitted together. And so it was a natural thing for me to start a business that was in this new, exciting, and somewhat bewildering space. And see what it... what kind of a difference I could make in terms of helping small business owners. Granger Forson: Fantastic. No, I can. That's very exciting because you were doing it yourself and realize that actually you could use that to help others to make it more successful. customers, you know, why do they pick you? How do you delight them? Maybe give us a customer success that you're so far proud of. Gareth Jenkins: So I think, well, I hope customers pick me because of some of the things I've just described. So there are, you know, I'm building AI on top of a business career, on top of quite a bit of business experience. And so, you know, when I'm approaching a business, I'm approaching it literally from a business point of view. And one of the things that I say to people is that, you know, business hasn't changed. The technology that we use has changed and gives us a huge amount of power, transformational power, probably even more so than when the internet came in. you know, business principles didn't change when the internet came in, just the way you delivered business and the way you dealt with people changed. So I think that plus a professional attitude, you know, I'm fairly easygoing and I hope easy to get on with. And so I think that's what, the feedback I've had is that people enjoy working with me and would like to work with me. And often that's the, as you would know, that's a starting point for a good business relationship is when you kind of hit it off with people. Granger Forson: Absolutely. Gareth Jenkins: So in terms of business success, I mean, I'm working with a business at the moment that is a, It's the big one that I've talked about, a big consultancy. And I think the success that they're getting from me is helping them put some policies and some processes in place around compliance for AI. And so that was an area that they were a bit blind to. didn't, like a lot of people, they didn't have a lot of internal knowledge about that kind of thing. but certainly they're not coming out with documentation and processes around AI at Dovetails with their existing ISO certifications and all the other process and certifications that they have. But now they can confidently go forward to use AI in a way that is safe, keeps them GDPR compliant and all those good things. Granger Forson: Yeah, excellent. brilliant. I like that. I like that thinking. We probably don't really think about the application. We just dive head first into things and not actually think about why we're using it, what the rules are, what our own internal policies are and the structures that we need to put in place to ensure Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. Granger Forson: that we protect us, protect our clients, and also make it successful. So brilliant. So early days of the business, appreciate that. To Gareth Jenkins: Yes. Granger Forson: date, how do you generate leads? Because leads are the lifeblood of any business. We convert leads through our sales process. But generating leads, what's your approach so far? Gareth Jenkins: So my approach has really been warm connections. So that's where I started. I think a lot of those have developed over time and continue to develop. And then I've really got into the networking side of things as well. So a lot of networking events of... of a wide variety of different events from, you know, sort of high ticket business clubs all the way down to informal gatherings, such as you and I are part of. And, you know, and all of those have started to bear fruit in one way or another. Sometimes with referrals, I've really had a few referrals out of that and a few direct contacts out of that. you know, I think. For me with networking, it enables you to get to know someone first before you start looking for business opportunities. And so that's what I really like about it. And from someone who didn't really enjoy networking previously, I'm thoroughly enjoying myself getting around to various events and getting to meet people and just seeing whether there's any opportunity. There's no sort of pressure or anything. It's just about if an opportunity arises and someone says, well, can you help me with that? I'm more than happy to go value first and see where I can help and then let it grow from there and just build that trust with various people. think going forward, I think there will be other, I'll have to open up some other opportunities in other lead generation mechanisms. And so I will be looking at that, but I haven't done anything concrete and sustained yet. Granger Forson: Maybe, maybe not. Businesses can grow very nicely from referrals only and have a referral marketing engine within your marketing rather than other types. So, you know, Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. Granger Forson: if it works, just do more of what works rather than inventing new things all the time. So something to consider. Excellent. So, you know, thinking about growth, know, what are you aiming for your business over the next 12 months and why? Gareth Jenkins: Well, think, you know, so I've certainly got obviously financial targets that I've set for myself and I've set out a business plan of where I want to get to. I at the moment, people often ask me, are you a solopreneur? And I have to think about it quite carefully because it's a bit of a trick question. Nowadays in the day of agents and you know, that kind of thing, I've got several agents running within my business. I run my business on an AI. operating system. And so I've got agents running in there doing various jobs for me. And I also am part of an accelerator, which is a global organization of over 4000 AI professionals. you know, saying am I a solo person in the strictest sense? Yes. But but in the broadest sense, definitely not. And you know, we've almost seen, I think the first billion dollar solo business using AI. But I think there will be growth. Granger Forson: Yes, yeah, it's very close. Gareth Jenkins: Yeah, I think there will be growth in employees. I enjoy working with people as well. for me, it's great to be part of, that's why I enjoy the networking and why I enjoy being part of the accelerator. It's a community, you know, that's kind of my tribe now. I do like working as part of a team as well. I thoroughly enjoy that. So I do see that there will be people coming on board to work with me. And I've got some ideas of what direction those might go, but it really depends on where the business goes. Granger Forson: Yeah, no, exciting. Yeah, no, it's really interesting to see agents and how they could potentially build solo openers. know, some of those, I'm not quite sure they're quite true when you drill inside some of their... podcasts or when you drill inside some of the YouTube things Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. Granger Forson: and you think, I don't think you're quite there yet, but it's definitely getting closer all the time. totally Gareth Jenkins: Yes. Granger Forson: agree with that. So, So let's move on to act two now, your journey as a business owner, running a business yourself or you even went back into the world of employed work, et cetera. It gets hard, it gets tough. What have you learned about yourself when the business gets hard? Gareth Jenkins: well, that's you probably learn. think you've hit the nail on the head that you probably learn more about yourself than you do about business or any of the other things. And it's I don't know that I can say anything that would be much different to most entrepreneurs in that resilience is probably the most the most required quality is to just bounce back and to, you know, I did have a period when I was a business coach when I wasn't all that confident in myself, which is unusual for me and there's reasons for that. But for that reason, I was kind of hanging back a lot. And for that reason, that didn't really work. You know, I got some business, but it wasn't as successful as I would have liked. And this time, I've kind of got my mojo back and I'm really... really going and just having that confidence to say well you know if it's not looking great at the moment I'm gonna just stick with the plan. I've got a plan and I believe the plan will work you know and you've got to be aware and open to changing things but I think the worst thing you can do is to chop and change the whole time and you end up not focusing on one thing so I think if you just set your sights on where you want to go and give it absolutely everything. And so that's what I'm doing at the moment is what I think I'm proving to myself is I'm good at. But Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: sometimes it just takes that conscious decision to say, I'm not going to worry about it. I refuse to worry about it. I'm just going to go and Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: redouble my efforts. Yeah, so. So that's where I'm at Granger Forson: Mmm. Gareth Jenkins: the moment. That's what I've learned about myself, certainly. Granger Forson: Yeah, no, I agree with that. I always think it's interesting with business owners when we talk and some of my clients, you know, they come along and when they start working, say, I want to reach this amount of revenue. And I go, OK, that's interesting. How you going to do it? And I go, I'm just going to do it. went, well. Revenue is the outcome of activity. So what are the key activities are you going to do that will actually drive that revenue? And it's that conversation is actually what really needs to take place. And once you know what those actions are, how often you're going to do them, et cetera, when things get tough because you're not hitting that revenue number you always thought, you can look back and say, am I doing what I said I was going to do? If I'm not, then maybe I haven't hit my numbers. But if I... haven't but I am doing those actions well maybe I'm doing the wrong actions so what have I learned what have I got to grow so yeah those tough times are always there but if we know what we should be doing we believe in that activity then it always comes through in the end definitely. Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. Granger Forson: I mean, at The Stronger Business together, one of the things I talk about with my clients is simplifying things. That comes from my lean background and you've got a lean background as well. know, taking all that waste out of the process, making things simpler is how I describe it. What's something maybe you have done in your business to make things simpler and easier for yourself? Gareth Jenkins: Well, I think one thing that I pick out is in terms of how people use AI. And the tendency is to just use AI on everything. And actually, when, you know, there's only maybe, I don't know what the percentage would be, 10 or 20 % of your business process actually requires judgment. A lot of your business processes will, you know, are just straightforward business processes and they don't need AI. And so you what I the simplification for me in small businesses and I've done this in my business is whatever you can mechanize without using AI, you take a variable out of the out of the equation because you're not introducing that element of judgment. You know, using AI agents. I was in a meeting the other day with somebody who was talking about AI agents doing this and agents doing this and agents doing that. And I'm thinking, well. That's all very interesting, but half Granger Forson: Why? Yes. Gareth Jenkins: of that, you don't need to use an agent. And if you do use an agent, have you got the right guardrails in place to make sure the agent's not Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: leaking information, it's not looking at the wrong thing, it's not doing the wrong thing? You know, the minute you give autonomy to a system, you have to put guardrails in place to Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: make sure, and you have to monitor that. So. Yeah, that would be a simplification that I would say anybody who's implementing AI should look at is do I actually need AI for this or can I make the process run without AI? Granger Forson: Yeah, that's very true. I love Toyota. They actually talk about you have to earn the right to automate. So you have to prove Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. Granger Forson: that you've simplified the process, halved it, halved it again, improved it to the nth degree. And then what's left, then we'll look at maybe automating it. But half the time, why spend the time and the money automating it? Because you've improved the process so much, you don't need to do it. And that's what simplification is about. As Gareth Jenkins: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Granger Forson: you say, people are probably setting up AIs just for the sake of it because they can. Actually yes we Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. Granger Forson: can all do lots of things but do we need to I suppose that's very true. mean we Gareth Jenkins: And it's very, Granger Forson: talked Gareth Jenkins: it's, sorry, I was going to say with AI, it's very easy just to just, you know, to tell the AI to do something. And so because it's so easy, you can very easily, very quickly introduce complications and complexity Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: that that actually will harm you in the long run. Granger Forson: Yeah, no, very, very true. I mean, you talked about, you know, putting guardrails in it. know, what would you never let an AI do that really needs human judgment then? Gareth Jenkins: So I have a principle that I don't ever send out emails that have been drafted by, that's a simple one, have been drafted by AI. So my AI will draft an email for me, put it in my drafts folder, I will look at it and I will. make some changes if I feel changes are required or I will send it. The only emails that my AI would send are proforma template emails where the wording is defined and it's just changing the name. Then I wouldn't use AI for that. Granger Forson: there's a lot of good automation that would just do that. Gareth Jenkins: Yeah, so that's one. mean, the other thing is things I don't allow to write to my my finance package. So I was was setting up to do my end of year book bookkeeping, which AI will do all of that for me, but it actually won't write anything to my finance system. It's just Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: simple prudence. I could allow it to do that. But why add the complication when I can just go in and do it through the UI? Granger Forson: Yes, absolutely. Yes, we probably over engineer our thinkings of what we need to do and make that happen. Yeah, fantastic. So let's let's move on to Act 3 now our hurdle because I think we just sort Gareth Jenkins: Right. Granger Forson: of started to lead into it. So yeah, what have you brought? What have we chosen as our conversation today? Gareth Jenkins: So we've got an agency business. I think it's marketing agency business with 12 people in it who are experiencing a lot of, they've implemented AI in various places and they're getting a lot of noise and a lot of inconsistencies in their output as a result of implementing the AI. And so they're saying, well, We thought this was gonna be great, was gonna save us time, make us money. How do we resolve this? Granger Forson: Absolutely. Yeah, and that's a great hurdle and that comes from my background. It's one of the questions I had with a client about a year ago. This conversation, it's such an Gareth Jenkins: Hmm. Granger Forson: important one to actually think about because lots of businesses are playing with AI and they're not seeing any benefit from it, both small and big. There's lots of things across corporate America and even corporations in the UK that are showing that they're not getting return on investment because they're not doing something right. So let's think about this business as a small agency business with 12 staff. Let's think about what's going on today. From your experience, what are the things that they might be doing that is causing them to not actually get any benefit from it and cause lots of extra work and things not delivering that they hoped? Gareth Jenkins: I think so. I think for me, the thing would be that they don't seem to have a process or they don't seem to have a system in place. They have a Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: number of different tools that they're using. And, know, there's no shortage. We know there's no shortage of AI powered tools nowadays. You can you can you can do pretty much anything. But if you have if you're not using them in a joined up way, then you are going to get variable output. So that's the that's the one thing. yeah. Granger Forson: Yeah definitely definitely they probably they probably start from the point of view actually even if you go back to their data systems and the software they're using they probably just picked things over time. to fix things in their business or to try and automate or to simplify things in the business without actually having an overall coherent strategy of the structure of all their data sets and what they're going to do and how they're going to work. And all they've done is they're now bolted on AI onto the top of it. So yeah, I definitely see that and I've seen that many times in business. So if we started from that point of view is we tinker probably with things. because they're buzzwords, et cetera. Where could a business get to if they really used AI properly to help their business? What would really good look like? Not the final solutions, but what would good look like in a business when we're setting it up and thinking about it? Gareth Jenkins: I think that if I think there's a continuum, I don't think there's one particular place that suits every business. Granger Forson: Absolutely. Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: And so it depends on the history of the business, the culture of the business. you know, the culture is actually a big part of it. I don't want to get sidetracked on there, but people are a lot of staff are afraid of AI because, know, there's been so much in the press about it's to take my job and all that kind of thing. And I really focus Granger Forson: Yep. Gareth Jenkins: on accelerating and uplifting people, you know, elevating Granger Forson: Yes. Gareth Jenkins: people rather than replacing people. But Granger Forson: Totally agree, yeah. Gareth Jenkins: but but I think, yes, so so cult, depends on the culture. There is a continuum. There is a place for experimentation and a lot of people. I guess most businesses have been through that stage. or are still in that stage. But then you start getting to the place where you start having automated workflows, where you've got some automation and some AI, but you've actually got a known workflow. And then you can get to the point where you actually have a section of your business that is completely automated, using AI automation and deterministic automation. And then you can get to the place where you've got AI agents doing useful things. where they have autonomy to make decisions and actually carry out actions within your business. And so you've got this continuum, and I think it really depends on where you're starting as a business. don't think there's, but Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: you certainly can get to the place where you've got a full system running your entire Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: business, and the AI first, I think the pinnacle of that. Continuum is AI first with the businesses designed from the ground up using AI Completely in every area you possibly can Granger Forson: And I think that's the key here, isn't it? With the target condition, where could they get to? Actually, what we do traditionally is we bolt on, we add in, we find other solutions for us and bring it in. But what we're doing is we're just adding coordination across. people and helping that coordination across people through the software and the systems that we're building. Where, as you say, if you start from ground zero and build an AI process, you said right at the beginning of the podcast, it's actually about process. It's A followed by B followed by C followed by D. Today, those are all done by ABC, are done by different people in the organization. But if you build from ground up, you start to challenge actually maybe some of those I don't need to do because actually I don't have that person. I'm just building. that flow and then parts of it can be automated through AI or just automated as you said. So it's for me the target condition to changing that business thinking. If you really want to get AI to work you've got to go from I'm not replacing jobs what I'm doing is I am standardizing my processes and then using the AI in the right part of that process to accelerate it to make it better. Then beyond that absolutely. Then it's like well what are those other things Once we've learned that, we're making that happen. What are those other things that AI could do for us so we don't have to then employ more people? We can use agents to do information gathering, agents to go and find things for us, agents to manage some of the activity because we've aligned and understood processes and the structures of them. So if that's where we want to get Gareth Jenkins: Correct. Granger Forson: them, what's... What's probably going wrong? What's the root cause of poor AI implementation in the business? Just thinking about this business, they've got about 12 people. They're a small business, just focus on them. What are the likely things that are causing this inability to get any real benefit out of AI? Gareth Jenkins: But I think, you know, just what we've been talking about now is sporadic or unplanned implement implementation of tools that don't necessarily work together. Whereas if you take a step back, you know, everybody knows that you should plan and very few people actually do plan, as you will know as a business coach. So I think, Granger Forson: Yeah. Yes. Gareth Jenkins: you know, and you talked about processes, you know, how many small businesses actually have their processes written down. I would venture very few. So I Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: would always start at that point and say, well, let's get a, first of all, a high level map of your business processes. And then let's start looking at the detail of those business processes and what are the process outcome measures that you have and what are the desired process outcomes, what are the inputs, you the classic sort of process analysis. Because if you don't, if, no. Granger Forson: Yeah. Yep. And it doesn't need to be complicated. You could literally do that on a one sheet piece of paper and think through the structure, but map out what you actually do today rather than reinventing it from ground up at the start. Really think that, map that through. yeah, so they're not Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. Granger Forson: understanding process, they're not managing process. Whatever sort of things are probably going wrong in this business. Gareth Jenkins: I would say not measuring. Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: you spoke about somebody saying they want a certain amount of revenue. But if you don't measure the steps on the way to the revenue, you know, so what's my average deal size? If I want that revenue, my average deal size is so much how many deals do I need? If I need that many deals, how many, you know, project wins do I need? If I need that many project wins, how many leads do I need to get, et cetera? You know, so it's just that. Granger Forson: Yep, absolutely fantastic. Gareth Jenkins: that simple planning and I think, you know, they probably aren't measuring the right things within the business and every business should have a scorecard that says here are the key elements for this business to be successful. And Granger Forson: Mm-hmm. Gareth Jenkins: always there's gonna be something around sales and business development and marketing, but then there's gonna be operational and delivery. measurements as well. I would expect that they probably aren't measuring. They quite possibly don't have well-defined roles within the business. So again, these are all non-AI things, but these are cultural. Granger Forson: Yes. Gareth Jenkins: That's what I said at the beginning, business hasn't changed. Granger Forson: No, no. Gareth Jenkins: It's the same and the same principles still apply. Granger Forson: Yeah, yeah, and these. solopeners that are supposedly building multi-million pound businesses on their own by using AI agents. They're not just using agents, they've got to map through and understand what business processes are, what they need, and then how can agents actually help them do those things. Now, they're starting Gareth Jenkins: Correct. Granger Forson: to appear now, and I know in Claude there are things called skills now, and I think is it 32 skills for us, a small business is now available. So you can literally just take it out of the box and run it. et cetera, you know, I would. be careful about what it actually does, anyway, understand the skill sets. Gareth Jenkins: you Granger Forson: That's starting definitely to happen that allows people Gareth Jenkins: Yes. Granger Forson: then to build a business without maybe thinking about process in the same way. But it's still an important part of this business that's got 12 staff that got people there. It's about understanding processes, about understanding the culture, what's holding them back, et cetera, for doing that. Gareth Jenkins: Yeah, yeah. Granger Forson: And one other thought around that is for me is about experimentation, because it's important to just experiment and understand and see. Keep it safe, those experiments safe, know, so don't give it data that you shouldn't give it. But or manage that data through proper activity and keep it safe, but allow access and not delete access, and start to build that experimentation mindset. Because as you say, it's evolving so quickly. Things, opportunities will always be coming up that could make that change and develop it. So having that, let's have a go, not a go as in tinkering, a go as, right, how do we use AI within this part of process? and start to build that mindset of experimenting through activities. Okay, so we've Gareth Jenkins: Okay. Granger Forson: got some good root causes, we've got some understanding that's going wrong. Don't just use AI, think about how you're to use AI, think about process, think about the culture in your business, think about how you're doing experimentation. So what would you recommend that they start one or two experiments, what would they start next week in order to start fixing this problem of not getting any benefit and adding confusion more to their access is by using AI. Gareth Jenkins: Yeah, I mean, I would always start and I always prefer to start with an audit or an opportunity scoping exercise really. And that might be just an hour's phone call, you know, talking through their business process if it's a very simple business. It could be a couple of days intervention where we actually go in and interview a few people within the business and establish what the business processes are. But if you go to experiment, I would say if you don't have an understanding of your business processes and a common understanding, something written down, then you can experiment. one of the benefits of AI is that you can iterate very rapidly because you've got a machine that you Granger Forson: Yes. Yep. Yep. Gareth Jenkins: can do things really quickly. But again, if you're looking in the wrong place because you don't have the process understanding, then you'll do some experiments, maybe different ways of writing copy or whatever it is. If it's an agency business, you might experiment, but you don't want to experiment in a way that's going to impact customers, of course. Granger Forson: Yeah, Gareth Jenkins: Personally, I would recommend looking at the processes, trying to find where the bottleneck is, because the other thing is you can fix a part of the process that isn't anywhere near the bottleneck, and then you don't actually make the whole any better. because the process, the process. So I don't know that really answers the question. It's less of Granger Forson: Absolutely, Gareth Jenkins: an experimentation and more of a bit of a discipline and sit down and map things out. Correct, yeah. Granger Forson: sit down and start doing that mapping and thinking through. And interestingly some of the stuff that I've been doing recently with AI, mainly with Gemini but starting to use Claude, is actually Ask It. say I've got this problem, this isn't working in my business, where should we start? What should we think about? And you ask those questions and it'll come back and ask you questions. You give it more questions, the answers to those questions, you say what else do we need to consider? And actually it can start to sort of help you think through some of this structure. And I've started to see that now within AI. We don't need a prompt anymore. We can actually start with a question and it can start Gareth Jenkins: Correct. Granger Forson: to guide and think us through that. process map my agency, how would I do this? How would... and Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. Granger Forson: you can start to give us some thoughts and advice around that. Again, with the caveats of, you know, where does that come from? How does it know those bits and pieces? You know, what's the best guidance? Is there quicker and better ways which experience brings and that structure? But, know, there's that opportunity within the systems now of doing exactly that. Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. And you mentioned pen and paper with process mapping. And the purists would probably still say pen and paper is best because there's a of a connection. But nowadays you can talk to AI and you can say, this is my process, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And Granger Forson: Yeah. Gareth Jenkins: it can even produce a diagram and say, is that a correct reflection of what you said of your process? So it makes Granger Forson: Yeah, Gareth Jenkins: it even easier. Granger Forson: it does. It does. Definitely. Definitely. that's the advantage of AI now to even though six months ago it wasn't that good at doing that. You can now ask it questions rather than start with a prompt of what you want. You can just start with almost a blank sheet of paper. So yeah, it's definitely interesting how it's and developing. Fantastic. Gareth, let's move into our wrap up and close now. Gareth Jenkins: Okay. Granger Forson: So what did you hear yourself say today that maybe surprised you? Gareth Jenkins: What did surprise me? I think talking about resilience, I suppose, that made me reflect a little bit on what I'd actually learned about myself. I hadn't really thought about that beforehand. So that was a good question from you. And yeah, probably talking about resilience and just the mental fortitude just to make the decision that I'm not going to be anxious about, you know, things when they don't look great. for when they look hard. Granger Forson: Well, thank you for your honesty. And finally, Gareth Jenkins: Hmph. Granger Forson: Gareth, how can people find more about you and follow your journey? Gareth Jenkins: So you can follow me on I've got a website at cherrisai.ai. And that's probably the easiest starting point. I'm also on LinkedIn. So if you look me up on LinkedIn and link it with Cherris AI, you'll absolutely find me and my contact details are on there. Granger Forson: Brilliant. Gareth Jenkins: I'd be more than happy to have a conversation, obviously any conversation and I'll start with value first. So if you need any help, just give me a shout. Granger Forson: And I highly recommend it. You know, I've had some fantastic conversations that are networking, hence why I thought it was Gareth Jenkins: Yeah. Granger Forson: important for you to get out here on the podcast and have this conversation. So Gareth, thank you so much for being open and honest and sharing all those thoughts with our listeners today. I know they'll get a huge lot from this conversation. So it's been fantastic. Thank you. Gareth Jenkins: Good. Well, thank you very much, Granger. Thanks for having me on. really appreciate it. you know, wishing you all the best with your business and with the podcast. It's really, really valuable and it's great that people can tap into the knowledge and the experience of other people. Granger Forson: Thanks for spending your time with us today. 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