Latest / The You Project / #1562 The Art Of Writing - Prof. Shellie Richards

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#1562 The Art Of Writing - Prof. Shellie Richards · The You Project

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  Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment of the
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: year project. It's Harps. Who else would it be. We
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: hope you're having a good day wherever you are, whatever
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  Speaker 1: you're doing. Professor Shelley Richards. I stumbled across on LinkedIn,
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  Speaker 1: which I never normally do. I'm not the person who
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  Speaker 1: gets guests. I have a team that gets guests. But
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  Speaker 1: I was looking at Shelley's profile and reading what she does,
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  Speaker 1: and she's written a book called The November Molecule and
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  Speaker 1: a few other things, and I went and also she
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  Speaker 1: teaches writing. I'm a writer, not a very good one.
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  Speaker 1: But I thought, how can I get a free coaching session?
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  Speaker 1: And I thought I could do that under the guise
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  Speaker 1: of a podcast. Hi, Shelley, how are you?
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  Speaker 2: I'm great? How are you?
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  Speaker 1: I'm very good. Hey, congratulations on your podcast debut. This
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  Speaker 1: is number one for you. Well, thanks for letting me
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  Speaker 1: walk you through the podcast door for the first time.
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  Speaker 1: Did you tell anybody that you would doing a podcast
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  Speaker 1: and did you get any advice from anyone?
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  Speaker 2: I did so.
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  Speaker 3: I told a colleague of mine who's I've done a
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  Speaker 3: couple of podcasts, one where she kind of went in
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  Speaker 3: blind and didn't know any of the questions ahead of time,
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  Speaker 3: and another where she kind of had a list of
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  Speaker 3: what to expect in terms of questions, and she said
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  Speaker 3: it didn't go how she expected it what at all.
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  Speaker 3: In fact, the one where she went in blind, she said,
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  Speaker 3: was great, and the one where she actually knew what
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  Speaker 3: the questions were going to be was sort of a
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  Speaker 3: not so great experience.
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  Speaker 1: It's really interesting, you know. I mean, I do this
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  Speaker 1: every day, right, so I'm and I think you and
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  Speaker 1: I had a brief chat the other day. And by
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  Speaker 1: the way, if I talk too fast in my weird
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  Speaker 1: Australian accent, just tell me and I'll slide down. But
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  Speaker 1: you and I had a conversation the other day and
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  Speaker 1: I said that, you know, we're six years in. We're
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  Speaker 1: an everyday show. And so I mean with my guests
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  Speaker 1: like you, I want to know a little bit about you,
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  Speaker 1: but not too much because I want to learn along
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  Speaker 1: with our listeners. I want to learn as we go.
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  Speaker 1: And I probably once or twice a week I'm also
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  Speaker 1: on someone else's podcast and they often want to send
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  Speaker 1: me the questions and I go, don't send me the questions.
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  Speaker 1: They're like, oh, that's that's how it works. I'm like, well,
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  Speaker 1: I won't look at the questions, so you know, if
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  Speaker 1: you're going to talk to me about whatever it is
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  Speaker 1: I do. I don't need to prepare, like I don't
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  Speaker 1: need to know what's coming, you know. And all of
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  Speaker 1: my feedback from my listeners is that, or not all
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  Speaker 1: of it. A lot of the feedback is that it's
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  Speaker 1: conversational and it's organic, and that's what they like. It's
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  Speaker 1: not this to and fro, prescripted, choreographed. Here's my question,
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  Speaker 1: here's shell his answer. Here's question two, here's answer to
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  Speaker 1: here's you know, I don't think it makes for great
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  Speaker 1: listening and probably not great storytelling either, right, you know.
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  Speaker 2: I think you're right. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Do you do you think that we've had a couple
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  Speaker 1: of people that I can't I won't mention, but we've
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  Speaker 1: had a couple of authors on who write brilliantly, but
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  Speaker 1: they don't necessarily and I'm not saying this for your
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  Speaker 1: benefit because I know you'll be good. I've spoken to you,
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  Speaker 1: but something like that.
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  Speaker 4: They're very great, they're they're very good at writing, very effective,
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  Speaker 4: very engaging writers, but sometimes not great communicators, like verbally,
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  Speaker 4: like in a conversation.
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  Speaker 1: Have you noticed that there's there's absolete? Yeah, what is
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  Speaker 1: that about?
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  Speaker 3: Well, you know, when I was growing up, my dad
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  Speaker 3: was a writer. My grandparents on on that side were writers,
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  Speaker 3: and my dad whenever he had something to say to me,
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  Speaker 3: would write a letter. And he said that allowed him
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  Speaker 3: to say what he wanted to say, how he wanted
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  Speaker 3: to say it, uninterrupted. And so I think that's what
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  Speaker 3: most writers are after they want to say. You know,
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  Speaker 3: language is a very important thing, and word choice is
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  Speaker 3: a really important thing. And so when you're talking, I
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  Speaker 3: think all writers go back in time and I wish
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  Speaker 3: I would have used this word or phrased it this way.
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  Speaker 3: And when you're writing, you have the opportunity to revise,
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  Speaker 3: and when you're you know, talking, you don't get that
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  Speaker 3: that chance.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no editing, there's no post conversation edit, right, yeah.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And I think also when you want to especially if
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  Speaker 1: you want to have a meaningful interaction with somebody, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: like I really I want to talk about something that's
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  Speaker 1: very important to me, I guess sitting down and writing
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  Speaker 1: it or typing it, whatever the case is, gives you
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  Speaker 1: the opportunity to think through deeply and meaningfully, rather than
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  Speaker 1: just being in the moment interaction where you or the
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  Speaker 1: other where somebody might get emotional and the conversation gets derailed.
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  Speaker 2: You know, right, yes, absolutely so?
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  Speaker 1: Is it? Is it possible for us even as we are,
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  Speaker 1: you know, adults that have been thinking and you know,
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  Speaker 1: writing and communicating for a long time, can we become
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  Speaker 1: can we become not only can we become better writers?
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  Speaker 1: But like you, like you, you're a professor of writing,
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  Speaker 1: you teach writing, but also you you know, you've opened
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  Speaker 1: the creative door and you've written some some fiction. Right,
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  Speaker 1: Is it possible to tap into our creativity later in
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  Speaker 1: life and discover that maybe we could write something creative,
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  Speaker 1: something fiction based.
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  Speaker 2: I absolutely think that.
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  Speaker 3: I think one of the greatest things about writing is
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  Speaker 3: that it is what makes great writing great is timeless.
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  Speaker 2: And that's true for fiction or nonfiction.
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  Speaker 3: And so all of the things that you read in
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  Speaker 3: a book, like the Elements of Style, for example, you know,
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  Speaker 3: was true in nineteen eighteen. Still those same principles are
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  Speaker 3: true today. And so when people have those principles in
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  Speaker 3: mind and they write enough, whether it's fiction or nonfiction,
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  Speaker 3: I think after a while, you develop a certain set
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  Speaker 3: of skills, and after a while that set of skills
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  Speaker 3: becomes more instinct and intuition, and you know intuitively whether
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  Speaker 3: or not a paragraph is great, or an opening to
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  Speaker 3: a story is great. And I think people that read
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  Speaker 3: and if you want to write fiction, I would say,
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  Speaker 3: read fiction. If you want to rate, you want to
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  Speaker 3: write great nonfiction, then read great nonfiction. Is really the
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  Speaker 3: key because some people are just really great masters in
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  Speaker 3: the art of imitation, which a lot of great writing is.
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  Speaker 3: There's a lot of retelling, a lot of fan fiction
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  Speaker 3: out there.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's in the I started my PhD in
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  Speaker 1: twenty nineteen November, so and hopefully in the next six
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  Speaker 1: months or so I hand my thesis in. But I
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  Speaker 1: you know, I discovered that especially at that level. You know,
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  Speaker 1: undergrad is relatively easy, right, but but academic writing at
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  Speaker 1: that level is so so the opposite of creative writing.
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  Speaker 1: It's so bland Shelley, it's so boring, it's so uninspiring, Shelley.
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  Speaker 1: For God's sake.
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  Speaker 3: That is absolutely true. It is dry as the desert
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  Speaker 3: it is. It gives me cut mouth to read it.
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  Speaker 3: And I tell my students, you know, you can rate,
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  Speaker 3: you can write great science using metaphor and analogy or
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  Speaker 3: you know, plugging out something unusual or unique about whatever
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  Speaker 3: it is that you're writing about and incorporate that in
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  Speaker 3: your science writing. Because if it's not interesting, people aren't
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  Speaker 3: going to read it, even even people in your same
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  Speaker 3: field won't be interested in it if it's not engaging.
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  Speaker 3: And some people are just really great at writing you know,
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  Speaker 3: good science that's that's not dry. And some of that
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  Speaker 3: is journal editors who are very old school who don't
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  Speaker 3: like it when people sort of like you know, muck
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  Speaker 3: around with the status quo and use metaphor and things
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  Speaker 3: like that, that sort of really beef up the engagement.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's.
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  Speaker 1: Such a pity because like when I come into and
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  Speaker 1: where I'm doing it is place. It's a university in Australia.
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  Speaker 1: There's a bunch of them called Monash University. And my
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  Speaker 1: lab is called the called Brain Park, which is the
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  Speaker 1: neuroscience and neuropsychology component, right, and it's great, and they're great,
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  Speaker 1: and I'm very you know, it's like I'm like an outlier.
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  Speaker 1: I'm like a pro academic in an academic world, right,
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  Speaker 1: so I'm not the perfect you know, and because I
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  Speaker 1: come from. I've owned my own businesses. I've employed over
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  Speaker 1: five hundred people. I run companies, I do staff. I'm
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  Speaker 1: a corporate speaker. I'm very much an experiential boots on
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  Speaker 1: the ground, you know, get your hands dirty. That's me.
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  Speaker 1: And then you step into the world of academia, especially
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  Speaker 1: when you're doing a science PhD. As you know, it's
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  Speaker 1: like it is, it's a lot. For me, it was
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  Speaker 1: like learning a whole new language, I mean, and the writing,
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  Speaker 1: and the writing where you've got to go oh, and
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  Speaker 1: obviously because it's got to be perfect, like there can't
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  Speaker 1: be any you know, there's no opinions, there's no there's
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  Speaker 1: no metaphors, there's no like, there's no storytelling, I mean
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  Speaker 1: kind of. But yeah, that was for me, not even
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  Speaker 1: understanding the research or running the studies or interpreting the data,
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  Speaker 1: but actually writing it now and then out of that
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  Speaker 1: where I would go and talk to a corporate audience
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  Speaker 1: and I want to talk to them about my research
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  Speaker 1: because it's very relevant to you know, it's it's about
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  Speaker 1: around it metacognition, which is thinking about thinking, and metaperception,
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  Speaker 1: which is understanding how other people see you. So it's
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  Speaker 1: all very relevant in a communication based you know, reality,
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  Speaker 1: where we've got to have conversations, resolve conflict, flex sought
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  Speaker 1: out problems, you know, work as a team. But trying
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  Speaker 1: to turn my research into a presentation and a story
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  Speaker 1: and a language that will resonate with them, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I think that's the science Munikita's challenge.
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  Speaker 2: Rot absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely, Jargon is probably the biggest stumbling block that science
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  Speaker 3: communicators face. And when you're talking to a general audience,
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  Speaker 3: people who have maybe some science background, maybe the last
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  Speaker 3: science class they took was in high school, but they
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  Speaker 3: really need to know about something like COVID or you know,
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  Speaker 3: the changing climate or something like that. You know, skipping
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  Speaker 3: the jargon and using Layman's terms is really important. I
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  Speaker 3: always tell the students, you know, people, if you're using
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  Speaker 3: jargon people, if they can't understand it, then they can't
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  Speaker 3: begin to make a decision about whether or not they
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  Speaker 3: believe it. You know, in order to say that they
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  Speaker 3: believe something, then they first have to understand it, otherwise
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  Speaker 3: they don't have a choice, right, And I think people
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  Speaker 3: sometimes distrust science because because of the jarragon, because it is,
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  Speaker 3: like you say, it's like a different language, and so
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  Speaker 3: because there's so many great science stories out there, you know,
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  Speaker 3: like the you know, discoveries that have been made, Penicillin
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  Speaker 3: a great story, you know, and get I think that
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  Speaker 3: gets lost. I think some of the gatekeepers of today's science,
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  Speaker 3: whether it's spoken or written, have a little bit to
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  Speaker 3: do with that. I think once a new generation moves in,
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  Speaker 3: some things might change.
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  Speaker 1: So I have a I have a kind of a
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  Speaker 1: model that I use. Tell me what you think? So
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  Speaker 1: I think, all right, what's the message or the idea
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  Speaker 1: that I want to share with them? And even if
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  Speaker 1: it's something like, you know, something around because my background
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  Speaker 1: is in exercise physiology, it might be something about you know, physiology, right,
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  Speaker 1: But I just think, well, I don't need to bombard
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  Speaker 1: them with you know, jargon and blah blah blah. How
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  Speaker 1: do I what's a story I can tell about this truth?
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  Speaker 1: Because if I'm telling a story like, for example, I
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  Speaker 1: was a fat kid, right, I was a morbidly obese child.
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  Speaker 1: Now if I tell them about my story as being
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  Speaker 1: a morbidly obese child and all the social, emotional, psychological,
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  Speaker 1: physiological variables around that, but it's my story and how
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  Speaker 1: I felt, and then what you know now because I'm
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  Speaker 1: telling them a story versus talking about childhood obesity in
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  Speaker 1: a clinical sense, right, But because I'm telling them Craig's story,
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  Speaker 1: people are engaged, people are connected, people lean in, And
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  Speaker 1: so I think that's the challenge with whether it's writing
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  Speaker 1: or reading, is how do I connect with humans and
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  Speaker 1: make them want to keep listening or reading?
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  Speaker 2: Right? I mean, I think story is that's the key. Right.
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  Speaker 2: Our brains are kind of wired for story.
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  Speaker 3: Everybody's looking for that narrative arc, that sort of beginning,
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  Speaker 3: mental and end. And you know a lot of times
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  Speaker 3: people want a happy ending, or at least a meaningful
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  Speaker 3: or satisfying ending to a story. I think that is
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  Speaker 3: I think, you know, one of the assignments that we
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  Speaker 3: do in my class is I have the students choose
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  Speaker 3: a news story and I ask them to read that
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  Speaker 3: same news story across four different platforms, and then they
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  Speaker 3: delineate all of the similarities and differences, and they are
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  Speaker 3: always shocked by how different that same story can be
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  Speaker 3: across four different platforms, four different news platforms. Sometimes it
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  Speaker 3: doesn't even sound like the same story, but it's a
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  Speaker 3: It's probably the assignment that comes closest to being about
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  Speaker 3: story because a technical writing a science writing course that
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  Speaker 3: I teach, but that one assignment is one that always
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  Speaker 3: I think stays with students for that reason because it's
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  Speaker 3: about a story, and a lot of them don't read
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  Speaker 3: the news, and so you know, just getting into the
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  Speaker 3: news and reading a news story is sort of a
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  Speaker 3: new experience for them altogether. But I think, you know
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  Speaker 3: that sort of and those stories are stories that stay
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  Speaker 3: with them too. You know, they make a presentation and
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  Speaker 3: they talk about, you know, how they couldn't believe this
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  Speaker 3: happened or they didn't know anything about this, And I mean,
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  Speaker 3: I think, you know, news journalists use the power of
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  Speaker 3: story all the time. So I think it's it's something
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  Speaker 3: that some scientists, at least some scientists that I work with,
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  Speaker 3: have started, you know, really latching onto. And some of
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  Speaker 3: them are really great storytellers, really gifted, and so some
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  Speaker 3: people are just gifted storytellers. And if you if you
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  Speaker 3: also happen to be a scientist, then you have a
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  Speaker 3: little bit of an edge there, I think.
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  Speaker 1: When I mean, I know, you've written a few books,
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  Speaker 1: but in general terms, and I guess it's going to
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: vary from person to person, but like when you want
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  Speaker 1: to write a book. Of course, we want to write
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  Speaker 1: something that's reflective ab our thoughts and feelings and stories
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  Speaker 1: and all of that, and we want to write something
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  Speaker 1: that's congruent with who we are and how we are.
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  Speaker 1: But at the same time, like you also want to
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  Speaker 1: sell lots of books. Like, if you're going to write
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  Speaker 1: a book and it's going to be, among other things,
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  Speaker 1: a commercial venture, you want it to be distributed and
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  Speaker 1: sold in bookstores. You want people to read it and
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  Speaker 1: talk about it and recommend it. So there's a strategic
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: there's a strategic and a commercial element as well. Right,
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  Speaker 1: So when you set out to write something new, do
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: you just write the thing that you want to write
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  Speaker 1: about or do you think about what will be attractive
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  Speaker 1: to an audience.
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  Speaker 3: For the most part, would I would say it's ninety
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  Speaker 3: percent I write something I want to write it about,
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  Speaker 3: but also something that I would want to read.
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  Speaker 2: I read a lot, and I.
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  Speaker 3: Read across all genres, and you know, I read a
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  Speaker 3: lot of nonfiction, and of course I read a lot
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  Speaker 3: of science, but I read a lot of fiction. And
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  Speaker 3: so I always write something that I want to write,
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  Speaker 3: but I always think about, you know, is this something
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  Speaker 3: I would also want to read. And so you know,
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  Speaker 3: that's always I think in the back of every writer's mind.
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  Speaker 3: Is this something that I would want to read?
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  Speaker 2: Also?
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  Speaker 1: What about what about the I guess understanding the mind
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  Speaker 1: of the reader, Shelley, Is that just something that we
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: that organically evolves over time? Like I know, and this
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: is very different, But I have about one hundred thousand
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  Speaker 1: followers on social media, and I have this page on
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  Speaker 1: Instagram where I literally write things physically on my whiteboard
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  Speaker 1: and then I take a photograph of that and I
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  Speaker 1: put that meme, that message, those sentences, like it's generally
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  Speaker 1: somewhere between five words and forty words, but it's handwritten. Now,
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  Speaker 1: if I put that on my social media versus the
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  Speaker 1: same message that I type, the handwritten message gets about
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  Speaker 1: ten times the traction, but the same words, the exact
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: same message.
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  Speaker 2: And it is very interesting, isn't it?
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  Speaker 1: Isn't it? It's like the exact like word, it's the
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: same words. But here's this is written by Craig left handed,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: messy Craig on a whiteboard. And here's a photo of
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: the message on the whiteboard. Now here's the same words
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  Speaker 1: in just a typed post. It doesn't have nearly the
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  Speaker 1: same engagement or impact, and it doesn't get shared. It's funny,
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  Speaker 1: what is fact? Yes?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, fascinating.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Have you ever asked anyone about that?
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  Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean why that is in fact?
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  Speaker 1: When I when I do post things on that particular platform.
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  Speaker 1: So that's my incident. It used to be called whiteboard lessons,
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  Speaker 1: but it's just called Craig Anthony Harpenou right. But but yeah,
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  Speaker 1: and there's thousands, there's like five thousand of them, so
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  Speaker 1: there's you know, and they've been doing it for years.
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  Speaker 1: But when I put up something that isn't a whiteboard,
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: people don't like it. They go, where's the whiteboard? Yeah?
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: You know what? I see your posts come across my feed.
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  Speaker 3: All the time, and they're almost always the whiteboard. I
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  Speaker 3: wonder if there's something about the handwriting that seems more
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: personal and hurtfelt as opposed to a keyboard.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it's like a human did this. Like
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know, especially in days, especially in times now,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: where you're like this is this person generated? Is this? AI?
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Is this? Is this? Like? You know, even people ask
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: me what program I use for my handwriting because my
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: handwriting is actually quite neat, and I go, right.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: I, actually, yeah, I did not realize that was your handwriting.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: I thought it was a font meant to look like.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, that is literally my handwriting. And then
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: I take a photo of the writing on the board
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: and then I just it's almost like I bleach it,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: so it doesn't it just looks like a white background.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: But the writing is literally my handwriting. So yeah, but
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: it's just funny. I think of that. I think about
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: like whenever I'm trying to and whether it's talking or writing.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: And I've written a few books as well. I want
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: to get my stuff across, but I'm really interested in
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: understanding the mindset of the reader so that I can
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: meet their not the right word, but meet their needs
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: or expectations as well.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Right, that is?
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: That is a tough question. I think it's hard to understand.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: I guess what you're looking for is consensus and readers.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: You know, reading is very personal, and what one person
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: finds great another person might think is horrible. I read
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: a lot of book club fiction, and some of it
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: lands and some of it I'm like, how you know
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: who recommended this? Because it's I feel like it's a
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: very personal thing. So but there does seem to be
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: some consensus around what makes a great book and just
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: an okay book.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: And just a terrible book. And so.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: But I don't think that anyone, even the greatest writers,
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: really have an idea about the mind of the reader.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: And even some of my favorite authors who are like
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: sort of like you know, automatic buys. If they published
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: something new, I'm going to go out and get it,
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: you know. Sometimes I mean, you know, I might like
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: nine out of ten books, but there's always that one
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, this is you know, this just
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: wasn't for me. Well, the mind of you know, trying
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: to figure out the mind of the reader is a
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: tricky thing.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: I think, what about what about developing a process like
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: and not everyone has to have the same process or protocol.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: I tend to start with thoughts and I'll just write
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: like it might be a word, or it might be
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: an idea, and it might be twenty twenty disparate ideas
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: seemingly unrelated, but they're kind of And then I'll write
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: a sentence around that idea or two, and then I'll
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: write a sentence around that other idea or concept, and
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: then I'll over time, It's like I've got all these
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzles. I don't even know what the picture is
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: going to be, but I've got all these pieces. You know,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: it kind of almost forms itself over time. M what
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: about you? Do you have a process?
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: I am what they call in the writing world a pantser.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: So they talk about panthers versus plotters. So plotters are
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: people who will go through all of the plot points
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: and outline an entire novel and maybe spend a lot
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: of time doing research and outlining for you know, six
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: months or a year before they sit down and ever
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: start writing a thing. Where I'm the kind of person that,
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: you know, maybe I have an idea for something I
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: want to write, and I noodle on it for a
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: couple of weeks, and then one day I just sit
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: down and just start writing. When I wrote the November Molecule,
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: I wrote it during National Novel Writing Month, which is
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: the month of November, and I told myself, I'm going
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: to write a novel during the month of November, and
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to look back. I'm just gonna start
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: writing and just move forward in the narrative without any rubberneckings.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: So no going back and looking at what this character
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: did or what that character did, because I was what
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: I was looking for was a cohesive narrative. And I thought,
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: if I just moved forward in the story with the
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: first draft, maybe I can do that. And so I
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: wrote the first draft in thirty days and then spent
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: another I guess six or nine months editing it. Wow,
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: but not with any not with any outline or anything,
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: just some idea in my head of the main character
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: and sort of you know, the beginning, middle, and the
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: end I sort of had in my head in certain scenes.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: There's a famous story about Kate Chopin that wrote, I
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: can't remember the name of the novel off the top
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: of my head, but it was a banned book, and
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: when she was asked about it, they asked her about
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: the main character.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: It was the Awakening.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: That was the name of the novel, The Awakening, and
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: she they banned the book and they asked her about
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: the main character, and you know, why did you write
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: the character doing that? And she said, she responded, By
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: the time I knew what she was up to, it
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: was too late. And so that's somebody that just sat
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: down at the typewriter and after a while, you kind
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: of get boxed in because the character kind of takes
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: on a life of their own, and so they can't
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: just do or say anything because now you've developed them,
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: and you've got ten or twelve chapters or fifteen or
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: twenty chapters, and so you know, there's only certain things
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: that character. You know, you've kind of built that character,
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: and so they kind of they kind of take on
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: a life of their own. There's times I've looked back
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: on stuff I've written and I didn't remember writing it.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: It was like I was writing in a fugue state,
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: and I think the character was just then the driver's seat.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Wow, I wonder if I love that. I'm just thinking now,
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: like when that author said, you know, it's like by
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: the time you know the character emerged or whatever, it's
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: almost like your subconscious is writing and your your your
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: conscious mind isn't even aware of what's going. And then
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: by the time it emerges, you know, it's like your
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: prefrontal cortex is offline and your your subconscious is just
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: opening this this door of wonder and you're like, where
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: did that come from? Oh? Because that wasn't even in
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: my mind, but it was somewhere.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Right, you know, that's how it happens.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I'm guessing the etymology of pantherer
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: is that flowing by the cd of pants? What is that?
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: I think?
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: I think so I don't know the etymology, but I imagine
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: it's just somebody that that's exactly a sort of flying
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: by the seat of your pants. So I'm not a
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: disorganized person, but I am, in my heart a creative
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: and I think creatives just naturally don't like uh, rules
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: or you know, I mean, guidelines is a better is
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: a is a better thing?
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: For me?
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't want to box myself. I would feel boxed
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: in and maybe a little bit crowded creative, you know,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: from a creative standpoint, if I were to.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Outline my work, Well.
• 27:39
  Speaker 6: I think that that that I'm with you, like, I
• 27:45
  Speaker 6: think that sometimes that having to work within a box
• 27:50
  Speaker 6: or a set structure or a set framework, that's kind
• 27:53
  Speaker 6: of at odds with creativity because now you've created.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: Boundaries and you're like, fuck the boundaries, Like you know,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: it's like, this is the whole point. This is not real.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: This is creativity, This is this is expression. Like there's
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: already enough rules outside of my writing. I don't need
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: rules in my writing as well.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Right, that's exactly right.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Do you they talk about what's that dude who wrote
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: or who did all that research on flow has got
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: a really interesting name. Anyway, it'll come to me. But
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: tell me about flow state for writing, if that's a
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: term that you use or something like. Sometimes I get
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: into I get into a flow state, not often, but
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: sometimes also we're speaking, I will say sometimes I'm sometimes
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I'll do a half day workshop and this sounds weird,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: but you'll get it. It's like it's coming through me,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: not from me. And sometimes sometimes I write and I
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: feel the same and I feel just and it might
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: end up I don't even do anything with it, but
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: I have. It's like something is emerging and I've got
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: to get it out of my head. And it's like
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: I fall into a time vortex where I've been writing
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: for five minutes and I look up and I've actually
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: been writing for an hour. Do you get into that space?
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: Yes, I do absolutely sometimes, And I think lately I've
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: been doing a lot of revising of something that I'm
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: working on. But when I sit down to write something new,
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: especially if it's something that I'm excited about it's a
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: new scene or you know, it's the ending, and I've
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: had it in my head and everything has jelled, and
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: I sit down to write and it just just like
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: you said, I can't type fast enough, Like I'm thinking
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: faster than I can actually type. That happens a lot,
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: and then other days it's like you turn on the
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: faucet and there's nothing, and then you wonder, you know,
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: this is something I even know how to do.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I feel like it happens despite me, not
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: because of me. Sometimes, you know, yes'ctly creativity is yeah,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: and you can't exactly you can't really strategize around it
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: because you can't say, well, you know, tomorrow morning at nine,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be creative.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: It's like, no, you're not right, that's right now, you're.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Actually going to be creative in the car yea, you know,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: when it's completely inconvenient, as you're walking into that Yeah,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: as you're walking into that meeting.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: Right or in the shower where we always have you know,
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: pen and paper. That's the worst.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Everybody talks about that.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's been times where I feel like, you know,
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: I've tried to talk into my phone, like into the
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: notes or times where I think of something and I
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: think it's so good, I won't forget it. That is,
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: never it works out, I always forget it.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: So I read in your bio. I read in your bio,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: is Shelley that you've edited over two hundred scientific manuscripts.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Wow, that must be analogous to punching yourself in the face.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: Uh.
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I you know, when I started working with scientists,
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: I was I'm very much a creative and so and
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: the and the writing was.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: Pretty dry, and I tried at first to sort of,
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: you know, inject a little bit of creativity. I learned
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: my lesson really quickly that they just don't publish things
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: in scientific journals if it's uh, if it's you know,
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: it sounds like a juicy, good story. They like their dry,
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: rigid style, especially the journals. And I have edited a
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: lot of papers on everything from anthrax and various neurotoxins
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: to malaria to COVID, the worst thing that ever happened
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: to my scientific My scientific manuscripts on diseases were at
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: least interesting. And when COVID hit and it was all
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: over the news, and it was on everyone's lips, and
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: they started sending me COVID papers. I was like, I
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: was so burned out from the whole, the whole COVID thing,
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, I'll read anything, please, can we go
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: back to malaria or you know, just osmyosis or something
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: like that. So, yes, lots lots and lots of grants,
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: lots and lots of scientific manuscripts, and after a while,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: even if you're not a PhD scientist, you start to
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: pick up on the science and learn some things. And
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: I think when I started twenty years ago, I would
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: have told you that I was not interested in science
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: at all, and today I'm very, very interested. I do
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: a lot of reading on nutrition and exercise science in particular. Wow,
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: a lot of reading about food and food science, just
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: you know, in my spirit, in my personal time. Nothing
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: that I'm editing.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: But yeah, now, oh, so many things I want to
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: talk to you about now. Is that because we spoke
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: off air and you said you're comfortable to talk about it,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: so you have MS? Am I correct?
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: That's correct?
• 33:45
  Speaker 7: Yes, And so is you're interested in You're interested in
• 33:48
  Speaker 7: nutrition perhaps related to that, like trying to manage your
• 33:52
  Speaker 7: MS and your health optimally or is it just something
• 33:56
  Speaker 7: different a little bit.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: So even you know, prior to my diagnosis with MS,
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: and I've had MS for twenty four years, and but
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: prior to my diagnosis because they ruled it out and
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: then eight years later I was in the hospital paralyzed
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: on my left side. And at the time they said,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: you know, we're not sure that you'll walk again, and
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: if you do it, you might have a lamp And
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: that was probably the main concern. Even though everything was
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: turned off on the left side, things that you don't
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: think about, like my vocal cords, my eyeball, my di
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: my diaphragm, like everything on the left side was turned off.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: But you know, the leg.
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: Of course, they want you to be able to walk,
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: and so I thought, you know, I need so I
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: started physical and occupational therapy, which I did for about
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: eight months. And I guess that's probably you know, up
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: until that point, I did a lot reading about macronutrients
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: and the importance of protein and things like that because
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: I was working out, lifting a lot of heavy weight
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: leg pressing eight hundred and sixty five pounds and running
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: long running a long races, and so I did a
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: lot of reading about food and.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: What's good for the muscles.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: But then when I got diagnosed, I would say I
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: probably stopped eating, for the most part, any kind of
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: fast food or junk food and pretty much anything that
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: comes from a package. And so, you know, and kind
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: of shifted more to a whole foods diet after that.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: And then since then I have gotten really interested in
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: sort of like as I get older, sort of you know,
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: maintaining healthy blood sugar and cholesterol levels and things like that.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: And the science is just.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Yea, keeping inflammation to a minimal minimum.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Right, Yes, that's exactly right.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: And how I how I You know, this is a
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: silly question, but not really. How are you now? Like?
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: You look great, you sound great?
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Thanks?
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: I feel great, and I think I do really well.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: I'm on so for years, I was on injectables that
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: I gave myself.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it was on a daily basis. Other drugs were
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: three times a week. Now I have an infusion every
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: six months that sort of knocks out my B cells,
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: the cells that make antibodies. So I'm on what they
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: call a B cell depletion drug. And I've been on
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: that for about six years and I've done really well.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: But it's all I gotta say.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: It's it's always sobering to go to the MS client
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: because there are a lot of people using walkers or
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: in wheelchairs, and so I feel like I'm always filled
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: with you know, gratitude, and sometimes I feel even maybe
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: a little lucky that you know that I've worked with
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: scientists and interested in reading science and so have you know,
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: an advantage I guess that way, you know, navigating the
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: scientific literature, being able to go into Google scholar and
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: look up something and if I can't understand it, then
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: I've got people around me that can. So I don't
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: I don't take anything for granted, I guess these days.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's it's twenty four years with MS, and
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: to be as healthy and functional as you are, you're
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: doing something right. So that's great. You know what I'm
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: fascinated in at the moment, I've been opening the door
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: on the relationship between I mean, I'll be my PhD
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: is in neuropsychology, but I'm just fascinated with the way
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: that our thinking can make us sick. You know, yes,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: and there's so much research around you know, placebos like
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: our thinking making us well, but just the impact of you,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Like even when you think about the fact that and
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: we're detering a little bit from the book and the
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: writing conversation, but you know when you think about when
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: you obsess or ruminate on negative things, which a lot
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: of people do, and there's no criticism in this, just awareness.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: You know, when you're ruminating on negative things, problems that
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: might happen in the future, and things that did happen
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: all that time ago that we can't undo now, and
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: what that person across the road might think of us
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: or whatever. Right, and it's all understandable human stuff. But
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: because your body can't tell the difference between what is
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: real and what is perceived, so then your body responds
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: as though you're actually in a problem. Now. Now you're
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: producing adrenaline and cortisol and all of these things, right,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: and like just just when you isolate one bit, which
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: is cortisol. Cortisol is like cortisole pumping around your body
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: all day or a lot of the day, which is
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of people because they overthink and they you know,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: analysis paralysis, and they're constantly worrying about things that might
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: happen and literally shutting down their immune system, you know,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: creating cellular inflammation. It's like, I truly think that. I mean,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: and I know this is no groundbreaking revelation, but like
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: we talk all the time when we're talking about physical health,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: obviously we talk about lifestyle and food and exercise and
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: booze and drugs and sleep and cigarettes. But I think
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: maybe more importantly is your ability to have a calm mind,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: you know, to be able, to be hopeful, to be grateful,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: to be you know. And I'm and this is obviously
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: easy to said and done, but you have a look
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: at the relationship between people, you know, people that you
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: know that a highly anxious and and constantly doom and
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: gloom and constantly focusing on that it's not many of
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: them are healthy.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: That yes, that's exactly right, That's exactly right.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: I that is just I've listened to so many podcasts
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: about that very thing. Andrew Huberman, I guess, is probably
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: the last person that I listened to who talked about that.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: There are several people that post things on Instagram that,
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: you know, where they talk about how important gratitude is
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: and that if you'll just stop, you know, every day,
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: like if you think you're having a bad day, just
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: stop and think of three things that you're grateful for,
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: and so I do that all the time. I recently
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: had a family member who had a serious illness and
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: it was one of those things where the doctors just
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: don't really know what was wrong. And I said, but
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: you know, you've got some medication. We do have doctors
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: that are looking into it, You've got family members that
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: are helping out, You've got people that can take care of.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: Things at work.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: I mean, we just had so much to be grateful for,
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: even though it was really, you know, a kind of
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: a bad situation at the time. And so I've gotten
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: into sort of a habit, you know, every time something
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: bad happens, just taking a step back and checking myself
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: and making sure that you know that that gratitude is
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: always there.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: I was. I was in the cafe an hour or
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: two ago, and I'm always you know, shutting down ideas
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: thinking and I was, I was thinking about this very thing.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about gratitude. And you know, I've got
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: one of my mates is a quadriplegic, and I've spoken
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: of him a bit lately, So I apologize to my audience.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: But you know, if you can stand up out of
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: a chair, and walk to the door like you and
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: I can. Well, that's amazing. If you can turn on
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: a tap and there's cold water, that's amazing. If you
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: can press a button then the room gets warm. Well,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: you're privileged, you know. It's like, can you open the
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: fridge and there's food in there? Well, that's a lot
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: of people, you know. And I was doing a little
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: bit of research on poverty. So as of twenty twenty four,
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: nine point two percent of the world's population, seven hundred
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: million people live on less than two dollars fifteen a day,
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: so extreme poverty. And about another twenty six percent of
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: the population live on less than three dollars sixty five,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: so between two dollars fifteen and three sixty five a day.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: So that's over that's thirty five percent. That's more than
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: a third of the people on the planet. So over
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: two million, well over two million people live on less
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: more than three dollars sixty five US a day. And
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: when I hear that, Shelley, I want to punch myself
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: in the face. When I complain about my bullshit, you know.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Right right, yes, I hear you.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: I the same the same when I watch the news
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: and see you know some of the things that are happening.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: I think that exact same thing.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: When I talk to the students and when we actually
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: am coming back to the end the news assignment, I
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: talk about how when you watch the news, it's a
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: lot of suffering. They don't report anything in the news
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: that's not suffering. So it's war and natural disasters and
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: you know, politics. And I tell the students, you know,
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: try not to let these things get in your head
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: too much. What I want you to do is, you know,
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: when you're reading about these things, keep in mind what
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: you can do. You know, I can't personally changed the
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: climate for the entire planet, but I can recycle. I
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: can purchase, you know, household appliances that are energy efficient.
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: You know, I can turn out the lights. I can
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: you know, I can do things like that. I can't
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: stop systemic racism, but I can treat black and brown
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: people in my life with respect. I can't do anything about,
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: you know, politics, but I can exercise my right to vote,
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: you know, things like that, Like you know, start with
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: yourself and the people around you. You know, the person
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: next to you, and so you know, that's what I
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: try to focus on. And I think my grandmother, who
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: was a quadriplegic from age thirty until the time that
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: she died, probably was the first person who I felt
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: like lived that out as you know, as an example
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: for me.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah, I think that that's that very stoic
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: philosophy of what's in my control. I'll control my controllables.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: You know, what's the best use of my time and
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: energy and ability based on my values and who I
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: want to be and how I want to be? What
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: is the best use like what should I invest energy in?
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: Like think about it, and I'm I'm I'm just as
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: guilty as anybody at different times, but like wasting energy
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: on things that I can't control, you know, and then
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: coming back to being present, like okay today, like today,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: what's the best use of my energy today based on
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: who I am and how I want to be today?
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: You know, I know that's a bit deep, but it's
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: almost like a daily check in.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think so.
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: I think that's exactly right. You know, you have a platform,
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: uh and a lot of reach, So that's an advantage
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: that you have. You know, I personally, I don't personally
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: have that, but I do have, you know, my classroom,
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: my students and my kids, you know who I try to,
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: you know, set an example for So, you know, I
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: was talking to a friend the other day about mistakes
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: I made. I always refer to it as my pre
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: prefrontal cortex version of Shelley.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Uh. And you know all the things that I did.
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: And but you got to give yourself some grace because
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: that's before you knew, uh what you what you didn't know?
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: I guess.
• 46:51
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: I mean there's like self loathing understandable, but it's not helpful,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: you know. Self awareness on the other hand, great, right,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: I think. So, yes, Now, a couple of things before
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: we go. I read that you taught creative writing at
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Tennessee Stipe Prison. Tell me a little bit about that.
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: Well, that was actually my grandmother that taught creative writing
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: Tennessee State. Yes, he taught creative writing at the Tennessee
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: State Prison. So you know in her you know, from
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: her wheelchair, wow and so. And sometimes when I was
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: growing up, you know, she would keep in touch and
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: people would get out and sometimes you know, we would
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: have dinner with someone that she met who had been
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: in prison, who got out of prison, and she I
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: think was you know, great example. I think I wrote
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: about her not too long ago actually on Instagram about
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: how one of the prisoners told her that she didn't
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: understand what it was like to be in prison, and
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: she wrote them a letter about how you know, her
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: body was a prison, that there were things that her body,
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: her own body, wouldn't allow her to do, like run
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: or hug your kids like she wanted to do. And
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: so that you know, people have different kinds of prison,
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: and some of those are self imposed, and that you
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: can look, you know, at your bars or through them,
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: and so you know, there again, you know, back to
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: the gratitude. You know, what can you do? And she said,
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: you know, you can be an example for other prisoners.
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: You can, you know, do the things that you are
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: allowed to do in you know where you're at.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Do what you can with what you have.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: Think about the psychological and emotional prisons we build for ourselves,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: like the fee based prison.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, happy birthday for yesterday.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: Oh thank you.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: I saw it. I thought I was going to comment that.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: I thought, now I'm going to wait until tomorrow. So happy,
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: you know, So twenty nine, how's it feel?
• 49:04
  Speaker 7: Right?
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: Its awesome?
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: Last year in my timies yeah, well thirty is coming up, dude,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: so you know, batten down the hatches once you hit
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: the big three. Oh hey, we'll say goodbye, affair. But
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: so the book is called The November Molecule, Shelley, is
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: there anything else you want to open the eyes of
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: our audience about website, any anywhere you want to direct people? Now?
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: I know you've never done I know you've never done
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: a podcast, but what guests do at this point in
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: time is they plug their stuff, So feel free.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: Okay, Well, my book Venovano Molecule is available on Amazon.
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: If you like thrillers and you like science, I think
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: you would really enjoy it. It has won a couple
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: of awards, and so I think it's a great read.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect, I will I'll put a link to that.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: And I appreciate you. It's so nice talking to you.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: You're such a great communicator. You know, maybe we'll get
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: you back at some stage if you're interested, and we
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: could maybe do a little writing workshop with you, because
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: everyone wants to be able to write better, so.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: I would love that.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that'd be great, Shelly. We'll say goodbye our
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: fair but for the moment, thanks so much for being
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: on the You project. I appreciate you, all right, thank
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: you