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Transcript

Kelly Clarkson Has Put Us All in Danger · Like a Virgin

• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Like a Virgin. I'm Rose Damu and
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I'm joined by Emmy winner Fran Torado.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: That's right. Okay, dear virgins, last night, not last night,
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: last weekend, I did in fact win a regional Emmy award.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: So you won, as our sisters at Every Outfit like
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: to call them, you won a shmemmy.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: It's a shmemmy. It's a shmemmy. And as I recently discovered,
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: does not count toward EGOT status.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: According to whom?
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: It is a real Emmy though, Rose. It's a real
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Emmy of the Emmy Academy. It is just a regional
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: chapter of the Emmys Awards.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: You really need to explain this to me because, and
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: you have before.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: No, I haven't actually.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Well, you kind of gave me an overview, but like what?
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: What did you win an Emmy for?
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: I honestly don't even know. No, I'm just kidding. I
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: was the host.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Was it for the Like a Virgin clips that we've
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: been putting out?
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: I won a regional Emmy for the cutting of my
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Cain and Abel story as told on our East of
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Eden review on last week's episode. You did a great
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: job with that, by the way. Thank you. I make
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: great use of Wikimedia Commons, as we both know. Let
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: me tell you, Rose... I did not really know what
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: the shmemies were, the New York Emmys, whatever you call them.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: The 69th, mind you. Wow. New York Emmys.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Oh my God, the 69th Emmys. Fran, it was like
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: they made it just for you.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: In this current cultural climate, we kind of understate the
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: significance of that now more than ever. The 69th New
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: York Emmys. I was in a docu-short. Ha ha ha
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: ha ha ha. for YouTube for a gig with the
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: New York City Tourism Board that was then nominated for
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: an Emmy. And I do get an Emmy, actually. I mean,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: I think you already know this, but for the virgins,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: you have to purchase your own Emmy.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: How much does it cost?
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: I actually don't know.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: It's like $ 10, 000.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure. So if you get an Emmy, a Tony,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: an Oscar, you have to pay for these statues.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: That's crazy.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: It is crazy. And the way it works is for
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: the ceremony, they have a statue that has the first
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: credit name on the statue. As everyone's escorted backstage, everyone
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: else has to sign up to receive their Emmy.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: They have to Apple Pay.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they have to Apple Pay.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: They have to pull out their phone and Venmo the
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: television academy.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Venmo the television academy. No, actually, they're like, oh, sorry,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Zelle only. Yeah, but I put mine on Klarna, which
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: I love that they were able to do, but No,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: I'm just kidding. I don't know how much they cost
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: because the New York City Tourism Board graciously said they
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: would pay for it.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: They better.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: They better. And I will soon have an actual Emmy
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: shmemmy sitting on my podcasting desk. But yeah, my guess
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: is they cost like $ 600 to $ 800. They are gold plated.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Plated. They're not solid gold. Cheap.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: And most importantly, Rose, the thing to know is that
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: my rate Is going up. Okay.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Like by 500%.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: No, I was thinking like 50%. But it's going up.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: It's going up.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: You have an Emmy. It's a reasonable increase.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: You are an Emmy winner.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Emmy winner podcast host.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: First time Emmy winner. And there will be more.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: And there will be more.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: When this show is eventually adapted into a streaming dramedy.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: right um that we are both creators writers and stars
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: of we will be sweeping the emmys.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: I thought look i i do think that for us
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: the kind of oscar is the kind of easiest next
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: step to secure that status.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: We've already kind of got in the bag.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah we've kind of got it in the bag um
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: we're gonna give Tom Cruise a run for his money.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: We're going to give Inuratu, honestly, a run for his money.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Digger's going down, and Like a Virgin will be winning
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: the Oscar this year.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: I still haven't seen Digger, and I really need to. No,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: I'm seeing it.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: I think that there is something kind of heavenly that
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: rewards us in the afterlife if we resist seeing Digger.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: No, I love Tom. I love Tom, and I need
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: to support my man.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: You want to say that, for the virgins, you want
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: to say that, again, you are a Tom Cruise apologist.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything to apologize for.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: I'm just a supporter.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: He can kill people in Scientology, and you say, yes,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: I support that. No, I'm not saying he has killed.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I'm saying he is able to. According to the church,
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: he is allowed to kill.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: And I'll be right there by his side, holding the gun,
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: reloading it for him.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: That is honestly a really great, role for you so
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: best supporting actress in in scientological murder.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Well i'll be like f there's a there's a new
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: um cameron diaz clip that's going viral on twitter right
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: now of her in vanilla sky with tom cruise and
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: she says like you were inside me i swallowed your
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: cum and like that's that will be my supporting role
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: i'll swallow his cum Any day of the week.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: It's our job to know this, but we still don't
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: know why Cameron Diaz clips are all over Twitter, do we?
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: No, and I honestly really prefer it that way, so
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: no one tell us why.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Please don't tell us why.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Before we jump into breaking news, I did do something
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: bad this morning.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: What'd you do?
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: In preparation for our trip to Florida, when you're listening
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: to this Virgins, we will be in Orlando. I was
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: naring my legs. Because, you know, I'm going to be
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: wearing shorts. So I wanted the stems to be nice
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: and smooth. And I also did the crotch area. And
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: some of the nare got into my pee hole.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: And now it burns.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, into my pussy. And now it burns when I pee.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Just a little bit.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: Gross.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Nare is so bad. I mean, you do have fair hair, right?
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: So you are the demographic for Nair, but Nair is bad.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: We shouldn't use Nair, everyone. This is an anti-Nair podcast.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Show me the science. Show me the data on that.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: I will send you some reading on it, for sure.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's get to the gossip of the week.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Let's get to breaking news.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: Bricking news the hottest topics according to us specifically and
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: look okay rose fran i when you texted me this
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: my heart fell i felt every bone in my body
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: like set and reset there is going to be a
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: girl's reboot.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I really when some ryan texted me first and said,
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Girls Reboot, HBO. But he didn't send a link or anything.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: So I was like, okay, maybe. And then I went
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: onto Twitter and there was a video of the girls.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: The girls from Girls.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: It's real. We are the ladies. We're not the ladies.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I'm not the ladies.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: It's happening.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Girls is returning for a limited five episode reboot. that
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: is shooting next year during the summer. And we don't
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: need it, but now that it's being offered to me,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: I do want it.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: We have just gone through the long, dark, cold winter
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: of In Just Like That, Rose. We just got through it.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Which I never finished. Look, this is what we... Look,
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: we just have to put out... We have to put
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: comms out on the gay internet, Rose. We have to say,
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: gather your able-bodied thems. Okay, stock your rations. Dust off
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: your armor. We must forge new weapons.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Get caged.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Get caged. We ride at dawn. We must all prepare
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: for war.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Start learning the choreography for the dance from the Beach
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: House episode. everyone needs to be off book by early 2027.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: Off book okay and like subjects of the realm must
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: know there will be a mandatory curfew just for your
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: own safety.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: It's actually it's actually a woman mandatory curfew.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: One mandatory curfew for your own safety it is dangerous
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: out there we have yet another long cold winter ahead
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: of us and at times the discourse will feel untenable.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: There was a full meltdown happening on Twitter yesterday, but
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: it was like the happy kind of meltdown where it's
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: like people are screaming, but from joy.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: I unfortunately, we're making fun of it. I do think
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: it's going to be good. Five episodes, get in, get out. Like,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: what's the hit about that?
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: And like, the thing is, I do trust Lena more
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: than I trusted Michael Patrick King.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: More than I've ever trusted Michael Patrick King. The thing
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: that does worry me is that as Ryan, when, when he,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: you know, flagged when he brought this across my desk,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: that Jenji Kohan is not returning. And he did make
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: the point that like Lena does work well with a partner.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: And I think, the sort of her solo efforts have
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: not been quite as successful as one where she is
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: with a collaborator, like too much on Netflix, which I
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: did like. It kind of like over-indexed on some things
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: that I wished it hadn't. Like it was a little
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: too sad and not funny enough. But that being said,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: you know, the fact that the girls are all coming back,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: That makes me hopeful. There's no way Adam Driver is returning.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: No, no. There's no, in not any universe. But to
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: be honest, I know he's like a prestige actor now,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: but like it would be major image rehabilitation for him
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: because he's not a likable person. Sorry. He's really not.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Girls made him likable and Lena put him on the map.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Lena was the one that saw something in him and
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, you have this inevitable once in a
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: generation kind of quality. that makes you an incredible actor,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: he should be so much more grateful. But I also,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: sorry to lie, fact check, but you did mean Jenny Conner,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: not the DP of, I believe, Orange is the New Black,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Jenji Cohen.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever. They're like white women in Hollywood.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: White women, girl bosses in Hollywood. Jenny Conner, I can't
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: remember anything about her other than the fact that she
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: was like the other half of girls. But yeah, that
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: is really interesting.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: I wonder if Judd Apatow will be involved at all.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: He simply must, right? I don't know. When Lena did
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: too much... He could have killed him.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Remember that from the slap? He could have killed him.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Very damning for Judd, sorry. I don't know. I'm curious
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: who Lena worked with for too much, because I thought...
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was a lot of different reviews on it,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: but I thought that was flawless. Like, I really.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Flawless?
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Not a single flaw?
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: I would say there were flaws. Okay, but you called
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: it flawless. Then I would say that it was like
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: an absolute A of a piece of media.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Not an A minus?
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Not an A minus, no.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: But I am easy to please. And I'm also easy
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: to displease. That's the thing about me.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Well, you're a complicated woman, much like the women of girls.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: I wonder if they'll call it women. Or they'll call
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: it ladies.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Women of a certain age. We are the ladies. The ladies.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: I'm not the ladies. There are so many. There are
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: certain things that I don't necessarily want the girls to
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: be reckoning with. I don't want to know how Marnie
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: feels about AI. I don't want to hear basically any
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: opinion Jessa has on anything that's happened in the last
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: 10 years. Because I know they'll all be infuriating. But
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: also for that same reason, I do, we do need
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: them back now more than ever.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: We kind of do. And I feel like Lena has
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: kind of waited the perfect amount of time. Like I
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: think she has decided to do this at exactly the
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: right time for her and for the culture to kind
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: of catch up and pick up what she was putting down.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: Because at the time that it was being put down,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: everyone was like, Lena, you should die. You should be
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: shot in public. Like, um, obviously all of the kind
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: of discourse and revisionists and reappraisal of girls has been
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: talked at infinitum, but we are a girls apologist podcast. Okay.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I do worry about the kind of body shaming that
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: she will be subjected to because they put her through
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: the ringer when she was like basically thin and and
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: had a somewhat non-normative body. And now that her body
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: has changed, like, and she's going to be back on TV.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Ooh. Well, keep in mind also that her weight did
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: fluctuate during the course of the series. Like she was
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: like three different body types over the course of the series.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: And it kind of wove itself into the characterization and
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: was talked about in ways that were just, again, so interesting,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: something you never ever see. So my hope is that like.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but, like, she was still, like, mid-size.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, of course.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: And, like, she is fat. Yes. Like, Lena is fat.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that in a judgmental way.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: No, it's fierce.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: We can use fat as, like, a neutral term for
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: how bodies are.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: And sure.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: And, like, we, as a culture, are not prepared for
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: a fat, protagonist in an HBO show we truly are.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Not no no um but I'll be really I I'm
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: I really hope that Lena resists the urge to and
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: just like that and like do the we gotta talk
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: about getting canceled we gotta talk about woke we gotta
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: talk about AI we gotta have yeah just like I
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: would love actually for this obviously girls has always been
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: beholden to its time and place, but that never felt
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: like the forefront of the show. It wasn't a show
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: about the time and place. It still feels right now. Timeless.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Like obviously girls can be dated by a few different
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: things here and there, but it really was timeless. And
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: I hope that show really resists the urge to talk
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: about the topic of the week, to talk about AI,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: to talk about like, social justice outside of like, you know,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: parody and satire.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Girls never really did that. You know, it was so,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: it was so character forward and that does give me hope.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: It's just reboot culture that does that. You know what
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: I mean?
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the, I think the thing it has
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: in its favor is that, you know, looking at, and
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: just like that as a case study and just like
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: that came, um, So much further removed from Sex and
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: the City than this reboot will be coming from Girls.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: And the culture had changed so radically within that time.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: And the creators of it were so much older that
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: there was that immediate overcorrection of wokeness. And I don't
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: think girls is like, as you're saying, like girls is
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: not as dated now as Sex and the City was
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: when And Just Like That came out.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: And that's a testament to its brilliance.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: I think there's less for them to be apologetic for.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: And they also kind of now have the case study
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: of And Just Like That to be like, we're not
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: doing that. Yeah.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Please. Please.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: And we want to be at the premieres.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: We would love to be at the premiere. Oh, my God.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Lena loves transsexuals. Loves. She can't get enough of them.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: And HBO, if you're listening, we will not disparage the project.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: We are happy to be bought, okay, with tickets to
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: the premiere.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: I would love to be an extra in like a
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: party scene.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, I would too. I mean, I famously was
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: caught outside of the kind of Studio 54 revival fashion
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: week party for Valentino Beauty last year. Held at the
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: door outside with every other kind of like C and
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: D list celebrity in New York. And Jemima Kirk, who
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: had stepped out of the party for a cigarette and
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: had to tow Valentino with her heels in her purse
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: and flip flops on. was not let back into the
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: party because the door was so intense. And so she
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: was just stuck outside with her friends and head to
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: do Valentino and she wouldn't, she couldn't get let inside
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: the party. And so I was like, kind of not
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: hanging out with her, but I was like, I was
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: friends with her friends and we were all together at
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: one point in time.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: And I think I did call us.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: I think I did bum a cigarette from her if
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I remember correctly. And they were American spirits. Oh, disgusting, disgusting.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: Love yourself. Sorry. This is no longer a, the hipster
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: era of the fucking 2010s. Like love yourself. Stop buying
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Marlboro Reds. Stop buying American Spirits.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Marlboro Reds I fuck with.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: Those are disgusting, girl. They're not that bad. Just get
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: some silvers. Get some silvers. You're not going to, you're
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: not going to spring for silver.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: No, but I did. I did the other day when
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: it was raining and I was out shopping, I bought
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: a pack of Capris just to have like a round
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: just cause like, even though I'm, I have quit vaping
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: and smoking weed. Like I do like a cheeky cig occasionally.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: And I, and I always feel, I want them for
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: parties now that I'm like going out a little bit
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: more and I feel bad constantly bumming off of people.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: But now that they're in my house, like the, the, um,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: the yearning to just like go outside and smoke a
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: cigarette is, is there, but I'm, I'm resisting.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Okay. Let me know if you need me to hold
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: those for you. Okay.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: I will.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: I don't like smoking cigarettes alone. Like, unless it's a
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Camel Crush, I'm not going to smoke it. And even then,
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: it's like, it just doesn't feel good. I'm always just like,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: this should be a vape. No. Gross. I know. Sorry.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: I now think vapes are disgusting.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Speaking of disgusting, Rose. Rose. I mean, I'm sure by
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: the time this episode drops, the drama will still be ongoing.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Both. there will be a new facet to it.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: So we just, for the virgins, we are recording October 14th, 3.28.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: The time is 3.28 p.m.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: And Kelly Clarkson has.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Yet to rebut the TMZ update.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: If you were unaware, Kelly Clarkson, singer of such classics
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: as Since You've Been Gone and Behind These Hazel Eyes,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: both of which went triple platinum in my Ford Focus
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: in high school, and also host of a daytime talk
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: show that is no longer on. She is currently at
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: war with a toy store in Brooklyn. Yeah.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: I believe it is a curiosity shop, Rose. A curiosity shop,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: which is to say they sell children's toys to adults.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: Rich people.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: To rich people with brown houses and expendable income under
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: the kind of insidious promise of whimsy. Okay? It is
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: a kind of steampunk adjacent kind of darkness of people
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: that frequent these shops. It is also, I understand, a
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: magic store. Yeah.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: That really does complicate things even further in a way
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: that we almost can't go into.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so essentially what happened, like I'm sure a
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: lot of you have already seen.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: No, summarize it for the virgins.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, Kelly Clarkson.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Released his statements.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Released his, Kelly Clarkson, this is the thing about this
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: drama is that none of it would be happening if
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Kelly Clarkson hadn't tweeted about it.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: No, she made it a thing.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Kelly Clarkson went into this store. There was an animatronic
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: bird on the wall. She wanted to buy it. They
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: allegedly wouldn't let her, made her feel poor in a
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: sort of pretty woman-esque scenario. She was the Julia Roberts
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: in this situation, famously a poor sex worker, which Kelly
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Clarkson is not. And so Kelly Clarkson felt so shamed
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: by this that she went to ex- And this is
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: a situation which I think it's appropriate to call it
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: X because I believe that's how Kelly Clarkson uses it. And,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: you know, blew up their spot, you know, called them
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: out for treating her so poorly, used their government name,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: and sicked her millions of followers on them.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: Onto this luxury toy boutique.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: The store has, you know, rebutted her claims, has said
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: that actually, you know, this mechanical bird is like, you know,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: hard installed into the walls there. And what they were
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: actually trying to do is explain to her that that
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: specific bird was not for purchase, but she could get
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: something comparable to it from the artist who makes it.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: People have tried to fact check this by showing that
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: photos in which um a price tag is affixed to
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: the wall next to.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: The bird labeled what what number fifteen thousand dollars she
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: wanted a allegedly fifteen thousand dollar animatronic bird that sings
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: here's here's my take here's my read on this situation
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: everyone involved in this drama is bad.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Yes. I watched the video of the toy store owner
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: talking about how they are being attacked, and I knew
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: immediately from both his appearance and his demeanor that he
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: is not a good person.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: But that being said, even though Kelly Clarkson is... Kelly
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Clarkson may have... I truly believe that there was a
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: very rude employee in that store who was cunty to her.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: That, however, I'm still on the side, well, kind of
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: of no one, but I'm still, but I'm on, I'm
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: not on the side of anyone, but Kelly Clarkson is
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: still wrong because, because she abused her social power and
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: she weaponized it against this toy store. She knew exactly
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: what she was doing and, They have had to disconnect
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: their phone. They're being harassed. Their employees are being threatened.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: And as much as the owner looks like someone who
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: would try to entrap you into a polycule on field,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: I think that his employees deserve to be able to
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: do their jobs without being harassed. And Kelly Clarkson has
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: only doubled down after.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: After they refuted her claims, she has said that she
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: doesn't care that they're a small business and small businesses
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: should still be held to certain standards. And refuses to
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: accept that she has a massive platform of millions of
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: fans and should not abuse it to target a small business,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: no matter how cunty they are.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Sorry, there's just no circumstance where any celebrity should dox
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: like anyone or any small business like Aids.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: I don't care if they killed her child in front
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: of her.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Well, that might be actually a reason. If there's actually
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: violence at foot. But this is not even close to...
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: It's an animatronic bird that cost $ 15, 000.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: I don't care if they fully re-adopted the scene from
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Pretty Woman. It's still... She still would.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Be wrong for....
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Using her power and her celebrity in this way.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: It's crazy. Okay, just for the virgins, this statement, like
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: one of her statements, plural, on Twitter says, y'all should
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: go check out Art of Play in Brooklyn if you
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: enjoy being treated like Julia Roberts' character in Pretty Woman.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: So she references Pretty Woman herself. She's literally like, I
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: felt like a common streetwalker. Like, it's so.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Well, it's just, you know, it's a very rich and
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: famous person interacting with the world and not having it
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: sanded down to be as, you know, to be as
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: frictionless as possible for her. She's mad that she didn't
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: get what she wanted.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: And that she doxxed a magic store.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: And now people are throwing mollica, mollica. Now people are
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: throwing Molotov cocktails at the magic. That's what the guy
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: alleges in TMZ.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: I don't believe that. He's saying their customers are being threatened.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: He's saying people that support them are being like, you know.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Someone said, Miss Independent! And threw the Molotov cocktail.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: They throw a brick through the window and wrapped around it.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: It says, Abolish Magic. And to be clear, and I
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: can't believe we have to say this, we here at
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: Like a Virgin do not support magicians or sleight of
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: hand magic of any kind.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Okay. You don't speak for both of us on that.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Rose, magicians are bad people and they should be quarantined
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: from society.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: I do agree with you in terms of like, you know,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: like a Vegas magician. Like, what's that one guy? david
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: chris angel chris angel um david blaine that should be
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: illegal they should be illegal but like you know a
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: nerdy guy doing coin tricks that i'm fine with and
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: in fact in fact that's like kind of a sort
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: of man that i would maybe like to date this
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: guy is someone who does close-up magic i think This
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: guy in the TMZ video is kind of giving that rose.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: He's kind of giving adult magician.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Because he... I know that Art of Play... I know
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: I've already referenced Field, but I would be willing to
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: bet that Art of Play is also his Field profile name.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: It's his Field profile name. He graduated from Sarah Lawrence.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: He.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: He goes to... No, he dropped out of Sarah Lawrence.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: He dropped out of Sarah Lawrence.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: And opened this magic store with money from his rich parents.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: He goes to play parties for heterosexual people, which I
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: understand exists, though I've never heard of them.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: He fucks trans women, but would never date them.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Would never date. Yes, yes.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: And he's a total top.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Ugh, hate that. Honestly, a love and light to, what
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: is it? The art of play. Again, sounds kink adjacent.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: It really does.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: And you know what? Maybe they should pivot to kink.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: Honestly?
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Now that close-up magic, now that magic and animatronic birds
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: clearly are not working out for them.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing is that the magic store doesn't
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: have a kind of rank of marginalization because Kelly comes
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: in hot and she goes, I'm a woman and I
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: felt like a sex worker. And so she immediately marginalizes
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: herself and strengthens her argument against magic store. a magic
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: store as entity, not on the margins of society. You
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: would think, and in some ways maybe possibly, but that's
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: just not how the culture is thinking about them. But
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: if they rebranded now and they say, oh, we are
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: a kink store and therefore absolutely subculture, absolutely LGBTQ +,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: they could win.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: We're a kink store for straight people.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: They should hire us for crisis PR is what I'm saying.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Fran, when we're at Disneyland, friday we should go into
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: the enchanted tiki room and ask to buy one of
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: the animatronic birds.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: But when they say the actual price we'll say no
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: we want to pay fifteen thousand dollars they'll say actually
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: none of these are for sale and And even if
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: you wanted to buy them, it would be hundreds of
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: thousands of dollars because they were all placed here by
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Walt Disney himself. And we'll immediately go into Twitter. And
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: I say, big mistake.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Huge.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: We actually, that.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Is maybe some podcast promo content we should consider creating
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: with the help of my sisters.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Big mistake. Big mistake. Huge. Main discussion, Rose.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's time to get into it.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: We have two things to talk about. One, I think
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: we should talk about very honestly quickly. I have too
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: many notes and I don't need to read. I don't really,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: I don't think it needs to go into detail.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's wake it up.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: But here's the thing, Rose. Okay, you and I, honestly,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know if we've ever really talked about Troye
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Sivan before. At least one-on-one. That's not true. Like on
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: the podcast, we have. Like during Rush, maybe.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: We've discussed his music before.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, I don't remember. Sometimes, I don't know if this
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: makes sense to you, but there's a kind of light
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: prejudice that I have that leads me to feel embarrassed
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: for talking about Troye Sivan because he is so like
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: a Google image search twink. And I want to kind
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: of cop to that prejudice against a kind of like
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: gay man who is structurally hot. My bias is that
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: I don't want them to succeed. You know what I mean?
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: And at a certain point, I actually got over that
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: with Troy. And he won me over because he's so funny.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: He has great taste. He's good at the internet. And honestly,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: since inception, I think, He has managed to make music
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: that is gay without really giving into the representation industrial complex.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because his gay music is about who he fucks
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: rather than his identity, capital I.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Yes. His music never is like now more than ever.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: His like press tours are never like, oh, it's so important.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: It's not about being queer.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Queer. With my take on a Kiwi accent.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Queer.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: It's about like having gay sex.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Queer people. Having gay sex. But yeah, no, I mean,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: obviously he's asked like, you know, LGBTQ trademark questions all
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: the time because that is obviously the burden that gay
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: people in the public eye must carry.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: And the horse that gay publications won't stop beating.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Right. But something that, and I want to know if
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: you agree with this or if there's a way to
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: complicate this, but I was kind of realizing as I
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: picked up this album that Troye Sivan, however you might
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: feel about this, is our foremost mainstream faggot pop star. Absolutely.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: And of course he would look like that.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: He's this generation's George Michael.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, I don't even know if he would say that.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: No, but I'm saying it.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, so the George Michael parallel is interesting to me
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: because George Michael, wasn't he outcast from society after the
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: cruising scandal?
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: So, like... in a lot of ways choice of on
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: has been afforded an opportunity to become much bigger than
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: George Michael, but maybe, but I guess George Michael, he
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: wasn't really out before that scandal. Is that right?
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: No, he was.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, he was. Okay. Um, but now I think, I
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: think Troy, Troy is doing something that's like, it's not
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: about cruising, but it fucks like this is music that fucks,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: which is really cool. And he's still like, in my mind,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: a mainstream kind of music artists. Like, Not in terms of.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: The charts, but I think in terms of the kind
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: of cosigns he gets.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. Commercial performance is not in the conversation right now.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: This isn't Pop Pantheon. No, we're talking about magazine features.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: We're talking about the artists that he works with. We're
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: talking about just the placement he has in culture.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: In our culture specifically, because we do... need to be
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: honest about the fact that he is like a big
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: deal in our silo.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: And not necessarily in the, you know, cultural landscape at large.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: And just to like disclaim the, excuse me, burp, um,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: my Celsius, my Celsius orange. Um, there's another, um, choice
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: of Vaughn and it's fashion. It's fashion. Um, Just to
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: disclaim what I said earlier about Troy being our mainstream
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: pop star, fag pop star. Look, Lil Nas has left
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: the building. We're really sad about it.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Where did he go?
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: He had a kind of psychotic break in public that
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: was like broken out by TMZ. It was really, really
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: like not cool on a paparazzi level, whatever. Really sad
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: about that.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Love and light.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Love and light. Steve Lacey literally just said, I think
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: this year, like, I'm not the G word, as in
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not gay. Like, what? Even though he's a faggot.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Wait, he said, he literally said the G word?
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: I'm not G word. Yes. Like, it's a slur. He's so, like.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: We as a culture need to, the earth needs to,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: the earth needs to explode.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: And, you know. Say words. Say words. It's literally so
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: homophobic coming from a literal homosexual, sorry, to slander, but like, sorry,
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: alleged homosexual. But, you know, maybe he's kind of proving
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: us all right because he is on the charts in
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: ways none of these other girlies are. Sam Smith, sorry,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: like kind of a faggot, but I don't think ever
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: nailed it for me. I don't, I think the creative
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: directors kind of lacked taste and restraint on the faggotry.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's the worst thing about every sam smith
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: creative endeavor since um i did like that one song
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: um how do you sleep what is it like it's
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: how do you sleep how do you sleep when you
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: lie to me that was a good song and like
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: had kind of a cunty video but that is the
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: last time he did anything like even or they i
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: don't know what the current pronouns are i think she's
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: might be all did anything even somewhat tasteful Because the
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: music and the visuals are always wrong.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just it didn't hit even if it does
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: perform commercially.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: And Troy really does kind of hit all of the
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: metrics of coolness. The music is cool. His aesthetic is cool.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: The world building that he does with the music videos
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: and everything is cool as He's not afraid to be
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: a little cringy, to laugh at himself a little bit.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: He's not afraid to engage with his somewhat cringy YouTuber past. Yes.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: He's very in on the joke.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's very self-deprecating. He's really good at the internet
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: in a way that reminds me of Lil Nas, because
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Lil Nas' prowess on the internet was a big contributor
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: to his success and kind of like... presence as a
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: celebrity um but to talk about the album she's the
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: best like i'm gonna say this is like better than
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: any album lil nas ever put out and it's.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Also like better than most of the pop albums that
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: have come out so far this year i like it
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: better than charlie's album.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: That's a gag i like it better than steve lacey
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: i like it better than harry styles or any of
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: these other kind of like fag aesthetic album sorry to
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: pit men against each.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: Other no men should be pitted sorry.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: But i yeah i thought it was really like it
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: was there's so many kind of references i mean maybe
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: we could start by talking about party and like the
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: madonna sample i know that i've been.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Listening to this album am finally getting Party outside of
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: its music video context. Right.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Because the music video is so good.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: So good. Incredible.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: One of the best music videos I've seen this year.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: If not the best. I like.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Well, like, the album as a whole, to me, is
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: very much like music that would be played in a
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: hotel bar in space.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Oh. I love that. I 1000% agree with that. And
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: I think that there's I think there's kind of three
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: different kinds of songs on the album. I think that
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: one of them is this hotel waiting room, but like luxury, expensive,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: futuristic kind of vibe. I think that like with that vibe,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: maybe something like I do this for you, you know,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: that song, it like sounds like a bunch of like
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Sims sound effects kind of smooshed over each other. in
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: like a good way it reminds me like that song
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: and like lost time and like maybe even she's the
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: best they remind me of like moby.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: You know what i mean oh this album is very
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: moby it's very um it's you know what it's really
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: giving is early 2000s car commercials It's giving that card
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: commercial where everyone's like doing the, doing the thing, you know,
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: like that's, that's what this album is.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: It's very, it's very, yes. And it's still, but it
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: has a textural maximalism. That's like complex. It's like cacophony
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: of sound in a very Moby way that still manages
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: to be. And this is not a dig background music.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Like it's ambient music. it's like elevator waiting room music,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: but at like a real, it's like elevator waiting room music,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: but at the standard. Well, you know what I mean?
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: It's like it also, Troy is one of the only
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: people besides Kalayla making sex playlist music.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Like music that is sexy, but unobtrusive music that like
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: can comfortably be played in the background while you're hooking
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: up with someone. And there's not going to be like
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: a lyric that, Or like a loudness or like a
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: presence that pulls you out of the moment.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: That, I was saying earlier, there's like three different vibes.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: That's like the second vibe to me. It's like down
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: tempo that fucks. You know what I mean?
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Emphasis on the tempo, you know? It's like, it's music
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: for thrusting.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: And I don't think this is, I don't mean this
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: as a dig, but like something like Le Boy is,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: that's like straight it like is so in the lineage
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: of a Frank Ocean song you know what I mean
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: and I think unfortunately like most down tempo trip hoppy
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: almost neo soul kind of music is all like indebted
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: to Frank Ocean like everyone's just gonna come in his
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: shadow but like the kind of cassette tape sound at
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: the beginning the munchkin kind of distortion it's.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Also like giving kind of like sneaker pimps a little bit. Yeah.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Like it's very late nineties, early two thousands, like electronica
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: meeting rock and roll in this very interesting way, because
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: like there are some nice acoustic moments on here too,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: that are like woven in really well with the electronica.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Like I really liked in embarrassingly, which is one of
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: the standout songs to me, The guitar riff is giving
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: almost like the acoustic versions of a Cocteau Twins song.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: And it's like 90s singer-songwriter vibes, but through the filter
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: of music made explicitly for an aesthetic TikTok video.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that TikTok music genre these days
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: is very... frank and also as you said very cocktail
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: twins that also has like dreamy fluttery kind of flutes
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: orchestral stings um and look uh i when i accidentally
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: broke the news on this podcast that omar apollo and
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: frank ocean dated do you remember when i talked about
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: this like years ago and like somebody wrote it up
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: in a blog oops um but like you know they
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: dated and then omar went on to release an album
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: that sounds like he fucking stole the hard drive from
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: Frank bedside and got his ass out of there. Like
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: it is so what he did allegedly, allegedly, but like the,
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: the bootleg Frank ocean can be really soulless. And I
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: think that even though I did enjoy some songs on
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: that Omar Apollo album, I did, did just feel very
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: cut and paste. And I think Troy is doing something
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: that feels ownable, even though I'm just going to say
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: I'm not like absolutely crazy about this album. I don't
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: think it's going to rank in like my albums of
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: the year.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: No, but I think much like the way it's meant
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: to be experienced sonically, like it will kind of comfortably
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: fade into the background of the music of the year,
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: but like in a positive way.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: It's not a standout, but it's very good. It wears
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: its references pretty proudly and clearly. I do think that
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: he owes Pink Pantherous a cut of his royalties.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: Yes. I kind of want him to really go harder
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: in the Pink Pantherous direction. And also, on his press tour,
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: he's referenced Madonna, he's referenced Kylie, which is to say
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: he's referenced Madonna's music and Kylie's fever. Because that's what
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: that sounds like.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: But it's also give there, like there are songs like, um,
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: Canada dry, which is one of my favorites. It's very,
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: is very confessions on a dance floor. Um, like the
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: more kind of vibey tracks on that, like Isaac. Um, yeah, yeah,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: it is. It is like really solidly placed in the
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: early two thousands, which makes sense because that like, There's
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: a 20-year nostalgia cycle. That is the time that we're
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: looking back on right now in so much of pop culture.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: So it makes sense that he would be pulling from there.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: And it works for him because he's not a singer.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: Well, he's a beautiful singer, though.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: He's not a vocalist.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: No, no, no. Sure, sure, sure.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: And so I like that his voice is on many
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: of these songs. used at less as like the guiding
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: force of the song and more like another another piece
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: of this like sonic tapestry that's being woven it's almost
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: like he's another sample on the board that's what his
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: voice is like i really loved on also unembarrassingly there's
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: this brit in the bridge um it's like the bridge
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: is so low in the mix like you i was
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: i was listening to a And the bridge is find
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: some sort of meditation deep inside this masturbation. What a
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: sticky situation. And that's the kind of thing that if
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: you were hearing that above the mix, it would be
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: corny boots. But the fact that it's being used in
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: this way where it's kind of at the same level
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: as the drum and the synths makes it really work.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: 10,000%. Agree. That is the take. To me, the most
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: interesting thing a beautiful singer that is kind of more
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: melody inclined can do on an album is to actually
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: deprioritize the dulcet sounds of their voice. That is such
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: an amazing way of talking about it, especially when we're
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: talking about dance music specifically. When he released Party, I
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: immediately thought about, I'm too sexy for my love. too
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: sexy for my low lows. You know what I mean?
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: It's like that song is so like, it's not about
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: the singer. It's about creating a beat with your voice.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: And where I don't think it's like, I'm not going
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: to lie. A hundred percent successful on party. Um, on
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: like a rhythmic standpoint, it's so cool to do. I
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: think the music sample works mostly. And like, yeah, I,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: and like, he's, he's like a pretty good lyricist.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: Like there were, there are like, Another lyric I wrote
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: down that I really liked on Cowboy, which is another
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: one of my favorite songs. One of the lyrics is,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: I want to feel your shackles against my wrist. I
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: want to taste the blood on your busted lip. That's
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: such a sexy line. There's another song where he talks
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: about watching the guy, he's like, chatting to like a
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: drop of sweat drips into his beer. And so Troy,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Troy drinks the beer and lifts his lips. Like that's
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: so hot.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Oh my God.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: I miss that. That's so romantic.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Cinematic.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: He loves like a little like spoken word moment. He
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: loves a little slam poetry key.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: I'm into that. And okay, look, I'm not like a,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: so yes. And also like, I'm not going to, and
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: we can, I know we have to move on, but like,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: I just want to say like, I'm not a down
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: tempo diva. Like those songs on this album were like,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: I like the mid and up tempo, but the third
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: kind of category, the down tempo, I just, I don't,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: I think the ballads were the least successful to me,
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: but that's actually what I should say is it's not
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: that they're the least successful. They're the least for my taste. Yeah.
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: And I kind of agree. Like those are like things like, um,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: sex star what's that yes.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: And i do actually really love the lyrics of.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: That it's kind of a it's kind of a skip
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: for me right um i do love troy meets world
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: love troy meets world that one is really fun um
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: like that one is really giving pink pantherous um love
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: yeah it's it's like good it's good fucking music but
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: like kind of what you said at the beginning is
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: very true it's like I would want to play this
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: while I was hooking up with someone, but I would
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: feel kind of embarrassed if someone was like, oh, you're... Oh,
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: the new choice of on.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And here's the thing. I, I like, and.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: I want to dismantle that for, for both of us.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: This is a really, look, this is a really biased take.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: This is a very like aversion bias take, but I
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: would love to me the most, the most interesting Troy
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: is to me is when he is a capital F, faggot.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: And he is often throughout his music and artistry. And
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: I do love the up-tempo songs that are for capital
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: F faggots. So when I hear the kind of more textural, TikTok-y,
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: mid to down-tempo stuff, it's much more interesting than a
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: lot of the other stuff out there. But I'm very
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: allergic to a trend in music that's happening right now
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: where a lot of people are releasing elevator music or
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: waiting room music. And look, I get it. Being a
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: professional musician can be a financial fantasy because of how
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: the industry is set up. And I also understand that
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Gen Z is too fragile to be overstimulated by loud
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: or robust music or gay guy music. And so all
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: these stars like Ariana and Miley, women who used to
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: make music for faggots are now all vying for this
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: kind of mid to down tempo, sorry, trash that is
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: plaguing our algorithms and TikTok feeds because it's being rewarded
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: by streams and chart placement and the masses. Because I
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: guess they want to compete with Olivia Dean or whatever
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: the fucking grocery store music girly is of the moment.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: But I just, I can't.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Everything is quiet luxury. Everything is literally wealth whispers. And
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: I want some volume. I think I've been listening to
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: a lot of rock and roll recently, like proper rock
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: and roll. And I want music that has texture and
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: grit and is loud. And you kind of have to
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: turn it down in your headphones or you're going to
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: bust your eardrums. and there are moments of that on
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: this album. And like, I do appreciate Troy for that.
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: And I appreciate, I appreciate that he's not making whatever
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Sam Smith is making.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: Yes. And I'm, I'm, my crankiness is like not directed
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: fully at Troy. It's, it's like directed towards this like
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: thing that, you know, this trend and like, honestly, so
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Troy put out this like song for the shards called
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: LA wants me dead. That is very rock. It's like
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: rock adjacent. It's like rock uptempo. moment and I kind
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: of like would love more of that on the album
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: but I don't know would it like kill like all
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: these other girls like would it kill you to like
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: sorry man up and put like a nasty little base.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: On this bitch Tran up okay or Fran up yeah
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: Fran up well let's let's move on to the thing
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: that I think we both have a lot to say
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: about we must we have both watched the entirety of
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Amazon Prime's Carrie series created by Mike Flanagan. Much to
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: our dismay. Let's not give it all away up front.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: So created by Mike Flanagan, based on famously Stephen King's
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: first novel, Carrie, from 1974. Flanagan is a frequent adapter
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: of King. In the past, he has done Gerald's Game,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: I think his most successful adaptation. Dr. Sleep, which is
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: also very good. Life of Chuck, which I did not
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: like because it plays too much into Mike Flanagan's kind
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: of schmaltzy tendencies. And we will certainly get to that
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: in our discussion of Carrie. Some other notable projects of
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: his are Netflix's The Haunting of Hill House, what many
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: people lift up as his best project. My favorite TV
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: work of his is Midnight Mass, which was also a
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: Netflix show. And I also really recommend the movie Hush,
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: which is about a deaf author who is targeted by
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: a slasher. and it's really, really good. The series stars
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Summer H. Howell as Carrie, Sienna Agudong as Sue, Alison
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: Thornton as Chris, and Samantha Sloyan as Margaret White. There's
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: also a bunch of actors who are sort of part
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: of the recurring cast that Flanagan works with on a
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: lot of his other projects, returning faces like Matthew Lillard,
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: who was in Life of Chuck and is also very
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: well known from things like Scream and Scooby-Doo. Rahul Kohil,
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: who's been in a bunch of Flanagan stuff. And essentially
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: what this take on Carrie is, not our take on
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: the show, but what this show is trying to do
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: is it's modernizing Carrie. It's And it really is inverting
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: the idea of Carrie, which if somehow you don't know,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: is about a bullied telekinetic teenager who.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: Who doesn't yet know that she's telekinetic, really.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: Yes, and who.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: She's figuring it out along the way.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Gets blood dumped her on a prom and essentially destroys
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: her hometown, which is a small town in Maine. And
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: it inverts the idea of this religiously traumatized teenager who
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: has been sort of the butt of every joke going
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: back to preschool and finally snaps. And instead has her
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: be this homeschooled, sheltered child whose father dies, whose father
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: is like a doomsday prepper, like, ma-ha, you know, 4chan
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: kind of vibes dude who dies. And so then she
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: and her mother are thrust into the contemporary world. And
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: so she is actually new on the scene. And as
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Flanagan keeps saying, you know, she's full of wonder and
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: curiosity and kindness. So that essentially is Mike Flanagan's, you know, major...
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: like revision in his adaptation is like the idea that
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: Carrie is not this sort of like lull cow who
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: finally snaps. It's like that she is, you know, the
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: new girl who is being thrust into a modern world of,
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: you know, cell phones and bullying and like cynicism. And
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: then also kind of the, the other big change is
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: that Mike Flanagan is like, bringing well it's not really
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: a change so much because in the original novel um
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: carrie is an epistolary novel right um and a lot
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: of it is told through interviews depositions depositions um that
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: take place after the fact and then also some personal
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: letters that do kind of place carrie in this lineage
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: of other telekinetic girls um and so Flanagan has almost
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: sort of remixed that idea with the larger Stephen King
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: universe and how he always has these psychic children. And
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: so from the first episode, we're made aware that there
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: is this larger world of psychic teenagers at play. And
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: then also there is this kind of institute. And Stephen
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: King actually has a book called The Institute. which I
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: believe was also an Amazon show. So kind of bringing
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: that in to build up.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: It's like an institute for telekinetic people?
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: For psychic kids or kids with powers.
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: Professor Xavier?
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's giving X-Men down. So that is the setup
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: for this. And I would like to start, before we
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: get into what I imagine the meat of our discussion
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: will be, I would like to talk about what we liked.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: Because there are things that I liked. And I will
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: say that the first couple episodes of this show, I
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: was on board. I had problems, but I was on board.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: I love the pilot. Love the first three episodes.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: So things I really liked. I liked, I think the
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: biggest sell, the biggest win of this series is Samantha
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Sloyan as Margaret White. It is insane. that there were
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: moments of this show in which I not sympathized, but
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: empathized with Margaret White, one of the great literary villainous mothers,
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: one of the most diabolical of Stephen King's creations. Like, truly,
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: she is a monster and has been portrayed that way
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: in every episode. adaptation. And I liked this more nuanced
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: take in and of itself.
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: She was not a monster almost at all.
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: I did not necessarily, and we'll get to it, I
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: did not necessarily like what that meant for how that
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: impacted the story. But... I thought it was interesting to
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: update her religious fundamentalism and make her this kind of
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: children's rights activist, Maha trad wife. Like that felt very,
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: that made a lot of sense plate when this story
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: is being placed in this era, not to say that
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: religious fanaticism doesn't exist currently because it does, but it
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: has sort of, um, Evil isn't defeated, it evolves or
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: whatever that is. It is kind of a smart evolution.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: Well, in the acting style specifically, in the original De
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Palma film, there's not exactly a psychological depth that Mike Flanagan,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: in his style of filmmaking or TV making, he's much
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: more inclined to really dig into a more nuanced mental,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: emotional depiction of characters that we might think are monsters
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: or characters that we might want to relegate to an archetype.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in the De Palma film, Piper Laurie comes in
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: at a 10 and she just goes up to like
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: a 6,000 throughout the course. But it's all kind of
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: like the same thing just like ratcheting up.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: And that's kind of why we love it. You know
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: what I mean?
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: She's, she is a true monster.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: Like, and what Mike, Mike, in what you were talking about,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Mike Flanagan, what he's doing with this, I think is
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: really cool because it's never been done before. We've never
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: really seen something that is that psychologically interesting in the
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: story of Carrie. Although, you know, many other arguments could
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: be made against that, but at least in the, I mean, it's, it's.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: It's psychologically complex in the novel because you are in
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: these characters heads and, you know, Margaret White, you kind
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: of understand why she's so, you know, because it's implied
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: that Carrie was the product of marital rape. And so
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: like that really informs kind of the way that she
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: thinks about the body as sin and like female sexuality
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: as sin. So there's all these nuances that like De
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Palma doesn't, clearly was not interested in investigating in his
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: film because he was making a 90-minute horror movie. And
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: as this is an eight-episode series, there is more time
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: to spend with this character, and you almost have to
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: complicate her to make it compelling for eight episodes. And
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: I think he did that well, and Samantha Sloyan plays
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: it perfectly. Actually, some of my favorite scenes of her
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: were the stuff where she's at work and she gets her,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: her boss fired, um, by like planting this story that
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: she's racist and like use it, scooping out poop water
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: with her mug. Like that stuff is great. And it's
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: also like very Kingian cause it's totally the kind of
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: side quest Stephen King would go into like to show
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: us the disgusting in a book.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: And he also just loves to like get into the
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: minutia of an evil person's day. And he also really
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: loves poop stuff, weirdly enough.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: Oh my god.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: So that really worked.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: Wait, Stephen King is the stat queen?
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: He just like poop comes up so often in his novels.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really weird. Really?
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: It's just like he's very into the gross banality of
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: life and poop is part of that.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: Do you think he has an adult diaper fetish? I
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: don't think he has a Scott fetish, no.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: Okay. I think he's just like, he, he, he, he, he.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: I think he's such a- Gremlin. Stephen King is such
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: a little boy in so many ways. He has maintained
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: a childlike innocence throughout the course of his life. And
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of his conceptions of what is
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: funny were sort of frozen in.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: His adolescence. Right. Much like ours. Yeah, honestly, relatable.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: I also really liked Alison Thornton as Chris. Kind of similarly,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: I liked it because Chris Hargensen is such a... Stephen
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: King is really good at writing a teenage sociopath. We
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: see this with Henry Bowers. Henry Bowers in IT. We
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: see it with Harold Lauder in THE STAND. So many
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: in sort of like what Arnie becomes in Christine. He's
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: really good at writing these teenage sociopaths who are just
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: like evil, like true implicit evil. And what I like
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: about this Chris is that because we spend so much
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: more time with her and we see that her life
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: is falling apart, we see these moments in which she
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: has the opportunity to make a good choice. And every
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: time she chooses the thing that will make her feel better,
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: which is bullying someone. Yeah.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: And that is so real. It is so real. When
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: you are that, when you're having that hard of a time,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: at the moment you're- When you're fat, nasty, and broke. Fat, nasty,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: and broke.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: And you come on this bitch mad as hell.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: Your hormones are, baby, hormones don't get me started.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: And I think this actress- plays that dopamine rush you
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: get when you bully someone perfectly.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it made sense.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: And it didn't make me like her, but it made
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: me understand her in a way that I think previous
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: iterations have not really tried to interrogate. You know, in
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: the novel, there is, like, Chris is sexually assaulted by
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: Billy Nolan, and that's kind of the way that King
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: tries to humanize her and so I like that it
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: doesn't do that instead we get her as this like
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: you know product of divorce and her dad is you
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: know like losing all his money and so I liked
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: that I liked Matthew I thought Matthew Lillard was good
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: as the principal.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah and I also loved Tim Badgley As the guidance counselor.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: Is that his name? The gay guy?
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah. The gay guy from Will and Grace.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: Love him. He was so good in this role. I
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: like wanted, I always, every time he's in anything, I'm always,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: I'd never seen him in a drama. I've only ever
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: seen him in a hard comedy. So it was cool
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: to see him in this.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: I liked that the kids actually looked like kids.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: Yes. Some of the actors are, you know, in their
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: early twenties, but these, this was not giving CW like these,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: these children, looked young. And I think that made the,
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: the school drama feel real. Yeah.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: Um, I, well, I'll let me, I'm going to write
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: down the word CW and get back to that, but
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: we'll circle back because we're staying in the positive section
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: of this conversation. I also love Josie Tota. Oh my God.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: It was great. And I liked that she was more
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: of the like one, one note bully, but even she,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: you could see like she was doing it for Chris's approval.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: She was, she had a crush on the guy. Like, yeah.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: Like if you've never seen Josie Toten saved by the bell,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: it is like, she has is kind of, she might
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: be starting to, she might be carving out a kind
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: of space for her as the bully. You have no choice,
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: but to empathize with the bully. You kind of, are like,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, I see kind of how you are. Or
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: there's something lovable about your bully, your bullying style. You
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? But I love Josie on this.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: I also really liked in the one scene she was in,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: I loved Delaney Hales, who plays Claudia on Interview with
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: the Vampire in seasons two and three. Yeah.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Best part of the kind of one of the best
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: parts of the pilot. I was like, what the fuck?
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. If only she'd had more to do, but we'll
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: get back to that. And then now veering into a
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: little more spoilery territory.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: I really liked the idea of Margaret having latent telekinesis
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: that when Carrie brings down the house on her after
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: the prom, Margaret is able to save herself. by using
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: this latent telekinesis that she actually is aware of. And
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: this is a switch from the novel because in the novel,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: the TK gene comes from Carrie's father's side of the family.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: So I thought that was an interesting little switch up.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: I didn't like it, but we'll get to that.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: And then this is going to sound kind of crazy,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: but so there is a whole, this show, weirdly enough,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: is kind of gossipy. Girl with superpowers.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very, so this is where the CW comes in.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: Because like, it is, yes, not CW in that, in
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: the casting, in that these are children that kind of
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: look like children. But in the acting, I think it's
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: giving a little CW. Yeah. Like the kids specifically.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, but so there's this Instagram account that Chris Hargensen
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: starts called Carrie Red. And while it at first exists
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: just to bully Carrie, it becomes a sort of gossip
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: girl thing trying to take down various students and teachers
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: at the school. And Rahul Kohil's character is branded as
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: a pedophile kind of early in the season. And then
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: we find out later in the season that That he
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: actually is a pedophile and has been abusing Chris's newly
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: minted stepsister. And this might sound weird, but I liked
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: that he did actually turn out to be a pedophile. Yeah,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: it's much more interesting. Because I was going to be
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: kind of mad if we were asked to sympathize with
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: him for being targeted as a pedophile for no reason.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that it felt that that was followed through.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: And I think it does kind of make sense that
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: one of these crazy accusations would turn out to be true.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: But I do think this kind of sets us up
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: into now moving on to the stuff we didn't like
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: because I didn't ultimately feel that that storyline was necessary
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: and it was kind of dumb.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: Nothing with Carrie red worked for me at all. But like, look,
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: I'm like, again, bias. I just don't think, I think
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: that the, the, the biggest mistake that the two biggest
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: mistakes that writers rooms these days are making is one,
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: write a story about cancellation online via Instagram. God. And
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: to write a scene online, That's a protest. And it's
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: a critical, critical climactic scene. First of all, the emotional
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: devastation of cyberbullying can really... The only time I've ever
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: really seen it work is 8th grade. Sorry, Bo Burnham, baby.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: He got that right because he used real 8th graders...
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 2: and real life, like kind of the most real kind
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: of like life.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: And the mean girl in that is like, she could
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: eat Chris Hargensen for breakfast.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: Literally. But like everyone else that tries to do it,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: they just, you cannot, it's really, really difficult to capture
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: the emotional devastation of Instagram bullying, which is real. It's real.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: And this show doesn't because we see these horrible things
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: happening to Carrie. But since it's an eight episode show
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: and we have to keep going, she just kind of like,
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: shrugs it off and is like, well, I'm fine.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: And like, it's also like, it's so hilarious to think
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: that like, that like a white girl is revealed to
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: be a cyber bully and there would be riots in
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: the streets, car vandalism, local news outlets, people.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: Chanting, kill Chris, death to Chris.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: It is crazy that this would become national news, that
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: Margaret White would pivot to being an influencer.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: Are you kidding me? At worst, she would be banned
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: from intramural soccer. That is the worst. She would not
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: get removed from prom. They wouldn't even get away from it.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? There's just nothing. The actual
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: consequences of it just was, I could not feel it.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: If a riot broke out at this school, prom would...
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: simply would not happen.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: Yes. Like what? Like, it's just, there's so many, Oh,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: he's so bad.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: I have, I have so many things to say.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: Yes. Let's do it.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: Of what I didn't like about the show.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: Let's get into it. Because, you know, we've, as I said,
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: this is sort of, is this certified Dudukaka?
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: I'm, I'm, it's complicated.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: It's complicated.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: It's complicated. It's a nuanced conversation because I do think
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: that there is, there is, attention here, which is that
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: on one level, Mike Flanagan set out to make a
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: specific adaptation of.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: Carrie that.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: He had a very particular vision for, and I do
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: think he succeeded in that vision, but... Yeah, he did.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, well, minus the Minus the Instagram stuff. But
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: my problem with that is that it is a fundamental
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: misunderstanding of what the novel Carrie is about. And I
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: do believe that you can make adaptational changes.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: But you can't rewrite.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: The novel and what it is trying to say. And Carrie,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: this is simply not the story that Stephen King told
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: in Carrie. And yes, I understand. Carrie is literally 50
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: years old. It has been retold many times. It is
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: a foundational text in culture for an archetype of the
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: powerful girl who is maligned by her peers and explodes.
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: And it is a story that is so, so resonant
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: and so satisfying. If you sit down and watch the
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: 1976 Carrie, you feel it like in your bones because
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: everyone knows what it feels like to be bullied. And
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: also everyone has that, like that kind of id desire
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: to feel satisfied by, you know, telekinetically destroying the people
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: that hurt you.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but my issue is that I kept watching the
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: show and as it got closer to the end, I
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: was thinking, wow, he's really going to have to do
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: a lot to get these characters to where I know
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: they need to end up for the climax of this story.
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: And what it turned out to be was that he
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: just didn't tell that story. He just created a new climax.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: So the characters didn't need to get there. And that
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: I think is the problem. And they're, Everything I think
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: is wrong with this show really can be summed up
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: in what happens in the prom, in his approach to it.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: And essentially, the fact that this show, which is called Carrie,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: is not about Carrie. It's also not Carrie. It's not Carrie. Well,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: there's this quote that that Flanagan gave during an interview
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: with Entertainment Weekly. And he said, we also struggled with,
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: we're never going to be able to love this character
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: as much as we do and then watch her intentionally
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: murder so many people. Carrie's culpability became a major question.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: How do we allow the tragedy to unfold in a
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: way that she's still responsible, but that she isn't a
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: monster herself? And that to me is the problem. why
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: she's supposed to be the monster. Carrie is a horror
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: novel and this just is not a horror show. And
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: that is the disconnect. It's why didn't you just write
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: an original show about a girl who was curious and
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: full of wonder and happens to have superpowers.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: Or like it didn't not call it Carrie. It could
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: be about a girl that watched Carrie. And then she
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: discovers she has telekinetic power. It's like, I would be
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: so much less mad. You know what I mean?
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: We're asking these questions and like, we know that the
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: answer is because IP is King. IP is literally King.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: And also like the reason Mike Flanagan didn't do this
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: is because Amazon is literally holding the dark tower adaptation hostage.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: And he had to make this before they would let
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: him do that. So it is, ultimately a business reason.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: And he can say as much as he wants that
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: this was his vision. And he always thought about making
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: the story this way. And really what he's trying to
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: do is like work within the framework he was given.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: But that to me is a betrayal of this text.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: It is also an incredibly misogynist take on this work,
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 1: which is, I believe to be very feminist, even though
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: it was written by a man.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: And also De Palma famously not the most pro-woman director.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: But still, it became a feminist text in spite of
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: all that.
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, because what he says there, we're never going to
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: be able to love this character and then watch her
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: intentionally murder so many people. That's why people love her.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: That's why people love her.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: Hello, murder. We love murder. Women murderers.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: This is a thing that does not get applied to
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: men in fiction necessarily. Men in fiction are allowed to
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: do horrible things and we still sympathize them. That's why
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: we have The Sopranos and Breaking Bad and all of
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: these things. But women have to still be lovable for
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: us to sympathize with them according to Mike Flanagan. I want.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: carrie to be.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: A monster that's what she's supposed to be that's what
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: she is the out farming a complex monster but the
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: out farming of carrie's agency to the fuck ass non-binary
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: character emeline that i i had i really it made
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: me feel so fucking crazy because like I was worried
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: in the first episode when at the end of the episode,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: Sue Snell says it wasn't just Carrie. And I was
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: worried like, oh no, we're going to find out that
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: these other psychic kids were like part of what was
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: causing all the destruction at prom. And in fact, it's
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: worse than that. Because what happens is that after Carrie
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: gets the pig's blood spilled on her, she gives this message.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 2: OP care, this OP.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: Original character control over her body. And it is via
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: astral projection via astral projection. And it is that character
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: who causes all the destruction and none of it. And
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: this is all summed up perfectly in what Sue says
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: during her like testimony during this, like, you know, interview scene, Emily, um, Adelaide,
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: which is the character that Kate Siegel plays, asks her
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: what she saw. And Sue Snell says, the shadow exploded.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: And that made me almost throw my TV out the
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: window because in the novel, Carrie, the shadow exploded is
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: the in-world nonfiction book about what happened at prom. And
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: so the idea of the shadow exploding is, That's about Carrie.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: That's about this girl who has been bullied by her
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: peers her whole life, who has been religiously abused by
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: her mother her whole life, exploding in this moment of
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: grief and rage and having a complete psychotic break that
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 1: causes her to snap. And instead, what it becomes in
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: this adaptation is this fucking Marvel-ass movie possession. And Carrie
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: doesn't even get to be the shadow that explodes. A
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: fucking original character that we don't care about is the
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: one exploding. And that is, to me, a betrayal of
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: this story that has been so important to me my
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: whole life. As I've said on this podcast before, Carrie
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: was the first adult book I ever read. I picked
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: it up when I was in third grade And what
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: drew me to it was on the cover of that edition,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: the book I have, it's a silhouette of Carrie's face
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: on fire. And that's what this novel is. It's a
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: novel about rage exploding out of someone. And this adaptation
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: doesn't allow Carrie to do that. It takes her agency
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: fully away from her just so that we'll keep liking her.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: So that she gets to remain this like innocent heroine
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: when this story isn't about that. We are supposed to
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: sympathize with her and then feel horrified by her actions
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: and feel horror at our own sympathy for her. Yes, exactly.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: That's why it's so delicious is that we become sympathetic
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: towards a monster and we're like, oh my God, wait,
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: what does this mean about me? That's why it has
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: lasted for 50 years. And instead- This adaptation was like, yeah, actually,
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: Carrie's fatal flaw was that she befriended a non-binary person
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: who was working on a kind of true crime telekinesis podcast.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: And also the fact that they're blonde is so crazy.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: Something about all of this, to me, the climax is
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: the fatal, fatal flaw. I almost wonder if I would
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: have enjoyed the series if it had a different ending,
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: if it had a different climax. I wonder if I
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: could have actually really, really gotten on the wagon.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: It's a horror show with no horror.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: That's another crazy thing. There was no horror, no real
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: jump scares.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: Not even jump scares, but there was no tension.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: No slashing, really. The kills were not satisfactory at all.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: And there are parts of the novel, and I did
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: kind of break this out as its own section, but
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: I think it's appropriate to talk about now. There are
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: all of these pieces of the novel that are horrifying,
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: that if you wanted to update the story. If you
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: wanted to make an adaptation that isn't like the adaptations
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: that have come before, there are things in the novel
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 1: that we've never seen that would really work in the
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: context of a horror series. Like one of my favorite
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: scenes in the book and something we've never seen. I mean,
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: Carrie's destruction of the entire town, when she's pulling down
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: the telephone wires and literally electrocuting people and frying them
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: in front of her.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: Well, that's kind of in the Chloe Grace Moretz version. Okay.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: There's, there's an, there's an amazing scene in the novel
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: where Carrie, um, as she's making this like meandering path home,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: she goes into a church to pray and the psychic
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: energy that's coming off of her is like causing all
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: this like ephemera in the church to just like And
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: she's like having these kind of like interior revelations about
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: the universe because of like what's happened to her. We've
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: never seen like her real like psychic snap. Like there's
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: like this after in the novel, after the pig's blood
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: is dumped on her, Carrie leaves the gym and goes outside.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: And like she has, we're in her mind as it
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: breaks and, we know that this girl has fully disconnected
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: from reality. And that is when she decides to be
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: this avenging angel that she believes her mother has always
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: wanted her to be. And when she decides to go
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: in and make these people pay, and it kind of snowballs. First,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: she's just going to turn the sprinklers on and get
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: them wet because she thinks it will be funny. And
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: then when that causes electrical fires to start happening, she
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: thinks it's silly and she wants that to happen. And
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: it kind of snowballs. The reason why she makes these
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: gas mains explode is because she doesn't want people to
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: put out her fires. And it's this slow descent into
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: madness that would be so horrifying to watch on screen.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: And instead, we just Outsource it all to an original
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 1: character that no one cares about.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: And also just as an aside, I don't think the
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: kills were that very, were very satisfying. Like the kind
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: of most gruesome thing is that all of their iPhones explode. Please, please, please, please. Also, sorry.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: It's like kind of like that gym scene is supposed
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: to be so gruesome, so disgusting. And sorry, Josie Tota
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: should have died. That is the kind of archetype, the
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: archetypical bully for that character to die is so gruesome.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: warranted and would be so satisfying don't know why she
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: lived sorry love Josie but the the the gym scene
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: is supposed to be a series of kills in the
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: Chloe Grace Moretz version kind of some really good kills
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: like there's there's a kill where one of the students
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: is like ascending trying to escape by ascending the bleachers
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: to jump out the window and Chloe closes the bleachers
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: and chomps him in half with the bleachers like she
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: does the electrical like wire sequence. Um, there is just like,
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: it was a lack of cinematic invention in the whole thing. No,
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: no imagination in what the whole series amounts to at
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: the very beginning of the story. It doesn't matter how,
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter if you know the, the absolute least
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: about Carrie. The one thing you know is that she
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: fucks up that gym scene. Okay. And it was just,
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: a missed opportunity. It landed like every single term. And
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: also like not enough, if any, not enough, like individual
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: kills at all. And essentially like she exits the gym
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: and then she turns around and she, dips the electrical
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: wire into the water so that all the kids become
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: electrical shocked. At once. And then it's over. And then
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: they all become electrical shocked. And it's kind of like,
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: music makes you lose control. Music makes you lose control. What?
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: You know, like it was kind of, it was so anticlimactic.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: And that's the whole point of the gym scene is
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 2: it's supposed to be the climax.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: It's the whole point of the book.
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: And instead, they were like, no. No.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 1: You know that Carrie goes to the prom and kills everyone.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: Yes!
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: And that takes up not even a full episode. And then...
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: then when the town is on fire and they have
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: her and the non-binary dancing and singing along to some
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: fucking synth pop song, I was so....
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: It's that the other really outside of the ending, the
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: other really like a fucking infuriating addition, a one other
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: infuriating addition is like when, and this is like the
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: one time I didn't like Carrie's mom, but like when she,
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: as a fucking Luddite, it becomes so kind of like
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: possessed by the idea that Carrie is being bullied and
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 2: like becomes this kind of really amazing character where she's
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: defending her daughter and like, disseminating all this information about
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: chris she has then a ring light and then hops
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: on a fucking twitch stream it was.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: It was absolutely crazy i was like this is heinous
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: like it was kind of cam it was kind of
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: cam mike flanagan.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: Sorry i wonder if you'll disagree with me and also
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: honestly you're you know more about you're more of a
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: mike flanagan scholar than i am i honestly do not
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: really pick up what he's putting down i think his
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: stuff is kind of Ryan Murphy quality of watchable a
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: lot of the time, even though it is a little
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: more complex than Ryan Murphy. But I really don't think
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: he does camp at all. I think his stuff is
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 2: very hetero, very psychologically grounded. It's way too nuanced to
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: be camp.
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: What has been a through line in his work is
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: finding the emotion in horror. And in some of his works,
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: it really works. It works to, you know, pretty good
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: effect in The Haunting of Hill House, although I don't
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: love The Haunting of Hill House. It becomes too schmaltzy.
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 1: And as his career has progressed, his early stuff was
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: way more rooted in horror, way more actively horrific than
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: And it has really become too schmaltzy, too emotional. And
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: that I think is the big problem with this series is,
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: you know, he said that the, I think the way
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: he cracked this story or like what made the story
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: feel necessary for him was that his oldest child was
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: going into high school. And you really see that sort
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: of parental panic about what your child is experiencing at
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: school when they're away from you. And like, I get that,
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: But that's not what this story is about. This story
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: is about Carrie.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: It's about Carrie. Well, I mean, his wasn't, apparently. He
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: just loves an ensemble. He likes all the characters coming together.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: And it really could have worked if it weren't for
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: this really damning device of the astral projection.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: And also... I know we said that we loved Samantha
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: Sloyan's performance and thought this was an interesting take on
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: Margaret White. But what I want to circle back to
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: is the ramifications, the kind of ripple effect that that
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: has on the larger story. Because when you take away
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: the religious mania and the religious abuse, you know, she's
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: not you don't really see, like you don't get a
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: Carrie who has been, who is like on a hair
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: trigger to become this like bomb that's about to go off.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: And like, yes, that I guess makes sense. Like if you're,
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: you know, when you're telling this version of the story
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: that he's telling, but it's just like not as good.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: And I think religious mania is still a very deep
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: well that we could be tapping.
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: This might be something that is like more, because of
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: Samantha than it is of Mike Flanagan. But like, I
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: would say that like Margaret white was low key, the
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: most likable and kind of morally redeemable character in this story. Like,
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: I feel like she just kind of like, because like,
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: to me, the only things that she did that felt
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: like monstrous were like making Carrie pray. And also like
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: slut shame people. Like those were the things where I
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: was kind of like, Oh, you're obviously a bad person.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: But she just wasn't. She was a good person for
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: pretty much the entire series. She was defending her daughter.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: She did it in a way that I felt was grounded.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: She argued with the powers that be in ways that
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: I absolutely would as a parent, starting from the school
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 2: shooter reenactments. There are a lot of things where I'm
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: just like, oh, I guess Margaret White is truly not
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: a villain at all and is actually maybe the beating
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: heart of this.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: And I would appreciate that if it felt like an
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: organic choice and rather stemming from the fact that Samantha
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: Sloyan already played Margaret White in another Mike Flanagan show.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: Oh, in another Mike Flanagan.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: So in Midnight Mass, she plays this character, Bev Keene,
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 1: who is basically Margaret White.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, but is, is, is Piper Laurie's Margaret white?
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: Not.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: Because this is obviously, this is not like Julianne Moore
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: was in, in the Chloe Grace Maritz version. She was
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 2: doing Piper Laurie's Margaret white. And I guess in midnight
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: masters thing, she was doing Piper Laurie's Margaret white. And
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: I have to, and.
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: I have to sin and like the cynical part of me,
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: like the conspiracy theorist is like, he had to do
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: this take on this character and, because he wanted Samantha
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: Sloyan to play her, and he couldn't just have her
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: play the same character she already played in another one
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: of his shows. And that is the problem when you're
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: so influenced by Stephen King that a lot of his
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: tropes have found their way into your work that by
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: the time you get to actually adapting him, you've already
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: blown your load. And so you have to come up
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: with something that's just like not as, not as like
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: fun or intriguing. Cause like, yes, Margaret White as like
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: a Maha trad wife, like prepper children's rights activists, like is,
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: is like, it is interesting in the context of what
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: the show is. It's just like not, not interesting when
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: you hold it up next to the other portrayals of
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: this character. I just think it's like, I just think
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: it's bad, bad choices.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: There's, if there's one thing that is absolutely our beat,
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 2: it's women who murder and Carrie as kind of one
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: of the archetypical, like girl mass murderer monsters, like, that's
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: a big part of why the ending of this series
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: was so disappointing. I want to know, like thinking about like,
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, you and I've talked about, we talked about
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: Lizzie Borden a while ago. I think there's something so
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: successful in that depiction of like sympathizing with someone who
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 2: is sympathizing with a woman who is, becomes a monster
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: and you kind of see behind the curtain and, and
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: really relish the, the, and have such a satiation by
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: the kills while also understanding like, oh, this person's a
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 2: bad person. I also think, honestly, you know what I
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: thought of? I am not okay with this. Do you
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: remember that show? Yeah. A perfect, perfect show that was
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 2: cut short because of COVID. It literally is kind of this,
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 2: it kind of is this.
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, all these bitches are Carrie's daughters. That is
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: the problem. And I think, But I'm Not Okay With
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: This was awesome. What is the fundamental problem with the
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: show is that we as a society have progressed past
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: the need for Carrie adaptations.
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I agree with that because there's
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: a version of this that I would have loved. You
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? I think that it was... I
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 2: think it was... I know we're kind of an anti-reboot
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 2: podcast and also... we love the first three episodes and
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: we were kind of on board. You know what I mean?
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: Like there, even though I don't want to watch a
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: show about a gossip girl cancellation, I do want to
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: see her blow shit up again.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: And I guess, I guess we will because, Oh girl.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 2: Because, okay.
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: So I think now I want to talk about the,
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: the like, other psychic people, Kate Siegel's character, because so
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 1: Mike Flanagan has said that he is envisioning this as
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: a three season series, which is the problem.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: Sinister.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: Like it's giving, there's this like meme, there's this like
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: joke that people tell about like the way that modern
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: TV exists today. If you like, it's like surf surfing Dracula, like,
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: If you made a show called Surfing Dracula, Dracula wouldn't
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: get his surfboard until the last episode. And that's very
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: much like... what the show is giving. Like all the
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: punches are pulled until the very end. And like, it's
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: all just set up for a continuation of a story
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: that I'm not really interested in watching. I probably will,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: but I'm not interested in it. And I, so this
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: like idea of there being this, like, like, Bobo X-Men
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: school off somewhere run by this headmistress who, who cares,
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: who they give Margaret's murder to her. They literally take
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: the words out of novel Carrie's mouth and give them
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: to this, again, original character that we have no reason
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: to care about, to empathize with. And it's not a
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 1: good actor and is a bit annoying. No, I think
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: Kate Siegel is an amazing actor.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: Maybe like not given, not given good stuff to do here.
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 2: That's actually what it is.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 1: And I really, I really hated the, the openings of
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: all the, of the episodes where she was like lecturing about,
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: because all it was, all it was, was spelling out
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: the themes of the show. It's like society hates powerful women.
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, I know that.
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: I read Carrie. It came out 52 years ago.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: It would have been really effective if used once. I
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: thought the first time they talked about.
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: An episode of telekinesis.
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 2: I liked that. I was like, this is cool. This
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: is really thematically cool. And it's also really in the
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: ethos of the book. Because the book was interested in
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: other episodes, instances of telekinesis.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, but as a way to compound the horror, not
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: as a way to set up a fucking three season
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: TV series that we don't need. The novel Carrie is,
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: I believe like less than 200 pages. It is such
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 1: a short book and yet it has endured for 50 years.
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: So why do we need to stretch it out into
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: this fucking CW ass book? show about a non-binary astral projector.
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 2: And like, who has a true, who's making a true
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: crime podcast?
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 1: And like, you know, well, okay. So here's the, I
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 1: think that the non-binary is, is different from the X-Men school.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: I think those are two different camps.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: I'm not interested in either of them. Because how, how
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: are we going to have a show that, That continues
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: to be called Carrie when most of the characters from
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 1: Carrie are dead. Why didn't you keep Margaret White alive?
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: I know we have to end, but as a totalist
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: that I'm really actually interested, I didn't read the original book.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 2: I ordered it, a really sickening kind of like movie
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 2: eBay addition to my house. But I didn't know that
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 2: Carrie's supposed to be kind of fat. Oh, yeah. I
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: didn't know this until you wrote it in your notes.
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: Carrie's fully fat.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 2: In the book.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: Carrie's fat in the book. Why do you think they
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: dump pig's blood on her? Yeah. They literally say pig's
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: blood for a pig.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 2: What? And so is there like discourse about this?
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 2: Or has there always been discourse about this?
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: There's always been discourse about this, but it was only
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: reinvigorated when they cast this very skinny, you know, traditionally
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: attractive white girl to play Carrie. It's... It's just really
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: disappointing because I love this story so much. It's so
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: important to me. It's so important to so many people.
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: It's so important to culture and to... Here's the thing.
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: It's like, this isn't a failure because it unsuccessfully follows
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: through on the themes that it decides it wants to portray.
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 1: It's a failure because... it is a betrayal of the
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: original novel and of the character of Carrie, who is
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: so such an indelible part of our, of specifically American
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 1: culture and is so important to like weird girls of,
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: of multiple generations. And that to me is, and maybe
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: I'm too close to the subject and like, this is
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: just my opinion and my read on it. But like,
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: I felt really betrayed by this show that like, purported
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 1: to be this like loving adaptation of a novel of
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: a story that is so important to me. And I
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: felt like really like spat in the face of what
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: that's supposed to be and decided that it needed to
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: sanitize and soften this, this archetypal angry, vengeful teenage girl
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: and strip away all of her agency, all of her power,
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 1: and make her into fucking like a Marvel superhero. Yes.
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: Okay. Obviously there are biases at play and also Rose,
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: let's say this was not called Carrie and it's not
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: an adaptation of Carrie. Let's say it's called Denise and
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: it's about called Denise and it's about Denise, Denise Richards. Um,
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: actually Denise Richards would have a, in this role. Um, no,
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: let's say it's about a girl named Denise who goes
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: through the exact same things that happen in the show.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 2: at the end, if we found out that Denise's destruction
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 2: was all puppeteeringly done by a non-binary who astral projected
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 2: because they're working on their true crime podcast, like we
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have enjoyed it. Like, well, I think honest, I
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 2: think it actually fun. It's like outside of the adaptation
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: of the betrayal, the subject matter, like we would take
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: that all out. I actually think it still doesn't work
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: on the story level. in large part because of that
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: ending and the failure of creating emotional stakes via Instagram. Like,
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 2: it just was not right. But what it comes.
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: Down to is if it was called Denise, we wouldn't
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: have watched it and Amazon wanted us to watch it.
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's true.
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 2: I don't think that's true. I think actually, like, I
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 2: watched I Am Not Okay With This. That's Carrie. You know,
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: that's a version of Carrie. I watched it. I loved it.
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 2: I thought it was an A +.
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: But there's plenty of shows about teenagers with superpowers that
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: I don't watch. And Amazon wanted me to watch this show,
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 1: so they called it Carrie. Mike Flanagan called it Carrie,
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: even though I believe it's not Carrie.
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: It's Denise.
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, that is the
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: worst sin about this show, is that it is so
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 1: ultimately uninterested in its alleged protagonist. Right.
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 2: And that's on period.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: So we went kind of long with this one. Sorry.
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: But I'm sure you all are very happy we did.
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: You're welcome. We will be back next week, having come
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 1: fresh off of a trip to Orlando for Halloween Horror Nights.
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: We have some really great Halloween bonus episodes coming soon
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: on our Patreon, patreon.com slash likeavergin. You can subscribe for
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: twice-monthly bonus episodes plus a bunch of other cool bonus content.
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: And go watch fucking De Palma's Carrie. And I guess
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: if you really want to, go watch the Chloe Grace
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 1: Moratz one.
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 2: I reappraised it two days ago. Gotta say, enjoyed it
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 2: much more than Mike Flanagan's Carrie. Or go watch.
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 1: The Rage, Carrie 2, in which one of the characters
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: dies because of flying CDs.
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: We also, sorry, Judy Greer. Did you even watch the
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 2: Chloe Grace Marz? Yes. Okay, Judy Greer.
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: My harsh opinion of it is informed.
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 2: The gym teacher, which is a really critical character in
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 2: the story of Carrie, I think is best portrayed by
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 2: Judy Greer. I think that there's no actress that does
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: it better than Judy. gotta say okay but chloe unforgivable
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: sorry yes not.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: Right um well i will be um telekinetically killing people
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 1: uh all month long as it is spooky season and
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: we love you thanks for listening later