Latest / Politix / All Birthrights Reserved

Transcript

All Birthrights Reserved · Politix

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what's scary about this is that, like,
• 0:08
  Say Donald Trump in no way means this to be an encouragement of
• 0:13
  political violence,
• 0:15
  but like 1% of the thousands of criminals he just let off the
• 0:20
  hook reads it that way.
• 0:22
  And that means that like several people,
• 0:27
  I don't know,
• 0:28
  murder Trump political adversaries.
• 0:36
  Hey,
• 0:36
  everyone,
• 0:36
  you're listening to a free preview of the Politics Podcast.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is the first politics episode of the second Trump presidency,
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: which began with about as much disgrace as we figured it would.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: So in this episode,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: we'll talk about President Trump's executive orders,
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: the blanket pardons he gave to January 6th instructionists,
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: and the Democratic response or lack thereof.
• 1:01
  If you want to hear all of it,
• 1:03
  you can upgrade your subscription to paid at politics.fm.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, everyone.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Politics Podcast.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Brian Boyler.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Matthew Glacius.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we're recording this on Tuesday, January 21st.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Donald Trump was sworn in for a second term yesterday as I speak.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And he quickly did what he promised.
• 1:26
  He signed a blizzard of executive orders and took other
• 1:29
  executive actions.
• 1:32
  And I think we're finding as we sift through them that a lot of
• 1:34
  these are stupid or
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: meaningless or symbolic or ordinary,
• 1:41
  what you'd expect when a president of one party leaves and a
• 1:45
  president of the other
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: party comes in.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: But some of it is really, I think, quite bad.
• 1:51
  And so we wanted to narrow our focus to the genuinely worst
• 1:55
  things we see in it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think to me,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: those are,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: and I'll throw it to Matt in a second to see if he wants to augment this,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: but they're the pardons for the January 6th rioters,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: over 1,500 pardons,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: including for the ones who assaulted cops and so on.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then an executive order,
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: which will,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: if it's implemented,
• 2:15
  effectively end or put into abeyance the constitutional
• 2:20
  guarantee of citizenship to
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: people born in the US to non-citizen parents.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's birthright citizenship.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the two where I feel like Trump is saying, I'm lawless.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Try to stop me.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see what happens.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Would you add to that list or you think that's about right?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I'm sifting through it.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't want to say –
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 2:47
  there's some stuff just of interest in terms of like what's not
• 2:52
  in the pile of orders,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So like Trump signed a long order about tariffs and trade policy,
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: but it was all ordering various agencies to do various reviews.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like he didn't.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Pulled the trigger, right, on anything trade-wise.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then he said,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: verbally,
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: February 1st,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: there's going to be 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: But again, that wasn't in the paperwork.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing's been done specifically to put that in motion.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got to be careful because,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: by the time we hit publish on this episode,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: he could have died.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, they might start it.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't in that first step.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Doge,
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: which has been much discussed since the election,
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: has an executive order,
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: and it's weirdly deflationary.
• 3:42
  It basically says that the United States Digital Service will
• 3:47
  be renamed the United
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: States Doge Service,
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: so they don't need to change the USDS logo anymore.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: or anything,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: and that they were given orders to put embeds in every agency,
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: but embeds to look at the IT procurement policies.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: And Vivek is gone from this project.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 4:11
  so what do you think the real- We can't derail and go and so-
• 4:14
  So I don't know,
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: just gossip aside,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: but it's just like-
• 4:18
  This is like something that there was a lot of verbiage
• 4:22
  dedicated to this.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it now looks like it may just not be anything.
• 4:26
  Not to say like things won't happen,
• 4:28
  but like there was no big order to shake things up there.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: The other dog not barking, I would say, is Maha.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Where again, there was like a lot of talk about Robert Kennedy Jr.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: and what this might amount to.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's no orders, you know, like banning seed oils.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: In fact,
• 4:51
  the chief lobbyist for the Seed Oil Industry Association was
• 4:55
  appointed to be chief
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: of staff at the US Department of Agriculture.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's so funny.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: like nothing,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: there's nothing in these orders taking on big pharma,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: for good or ill.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know how, if it's like, I haven't,
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: parse the language to know if it means anything,
• 5:15
  but he rescinded a Biden order aimed at pharmaceutical savings
• 5:22
  for Medicaid.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: He rescinded a slightly meaningless Biden order,
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: but I just mean there was no...
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of the discourse,
• 5:32
  there were weeks of talking about Kennedy and Kennedy's view
• 5:36
  about Pfizer running
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: the FDA or whatever.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing...
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: indicative of that, um, was occurring.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: What you instead got was,
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: a,
• 5:46
  a lengthy order about like DEI initiatives in the federal
• 5:51
  government that,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we'll have any real-world consequences,
• 5:57
  but should definitely have consequences for the guts of
• 6:01
  government agencies.
• 6:03
  There was a very stringent return to office policy announced
• 6:07
  for federal employees.
• 6:09
  There was a memo from OPM,
• 6:12
  Office of Personnel Management,
• 6:14
  asking every government agency to
• 6:17
  to report back by Friday the names of every single federal
• 6:23
  employee in their
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: purview who is within their one-year probationary period,
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: seemingly set them up to potentially fire everyone.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: But,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: not saying that they're going to fire everybody,
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: but just saying that they want that list by Friday,
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: return to office,
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Then there was a gender order,
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: saying that there are only two genders,
• 6:51
  saying that the State Department should stop offering a
• 6:56
  non-binary passport option.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: more consequential policy will sort of flow in that area,
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: but the order is rhetorically kind of big.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:10
  They can't redo the Title IX rule writing process in a one-day
• 7:14
  EO if they wanted to
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: stick in court.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: They're trying to make a statement about where they,
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: we are going to be dickheads to trans people everywhere we can be.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Super interesting.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: When Ronald Reagan became president and when George W.
• 7:29
  Bush became president and when Donald Trump became president
• 7:32
  the first time,
• 7:33
  all three of them implemented what liberals called the global
• 7:39
  gag rule and what
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: conservatives called Mexico City policy.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Trump did not include a Mexico City policy.
• 7:48
  Yo,
• 7:48
  in his day one stack of memos,
• 7:51
  he is clearly very spooked about abortion politics.
• 7:58
  You know,
• 7:59
  in their sense of like,
• 8:00
  you know,
• 8:00
  like,
• 8:00
  this is not normal,
• 8:02
  right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's like really unusual.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Did he do Mexico City the first day in 2017?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I believe so.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is just like a classic ping pong.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Democrat comes in, you withdraw it.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Republican comes in, you implement it.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Trump is like, I'm sure it'll come.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 8:17
  I mean,
• 8:18
  I would bet that it will come,
• 8:20
  but his team is worried about abortion.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: What they are not worried about,
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: what they really,
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: really,
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: really want to talk about,
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: what they really want to have fights about is immigration.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there were like a million immigration orders here, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: They halted all refugee resettlement.
• 8:39
  Like they literally like turned around a plane from Afghanistan
• 8:44
  that had people on it.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: They turned off the CBP1 app like right away.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: People who had appointments for asylum hearings.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: We're gone.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: A kind of a special program that Biden had created for people from Cuba,
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Venezuela,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: and Nicaragua,
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:02
  which was meant to be a somewhat like Republican-friendly
• 9:06
  asylum program because
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: those are,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: people fleeing communist dictatorships.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: He canceled that.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: He...
• 9:14
  said in an unclear way,
• 9:16
  but that the military will deploy to the southern border.
• 9:20
  He said that he is invoking the constitutional provisions
• 9:25
  governing an invasion of
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: the United States.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: This is a...
• 9:29
  You know,
• 9:30
  the United States has had a pretty happy history and has never
• 9:32
  really been invaded.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this constitutional authority has not been tested in any way.
• 9:39
  Many,
• 9:40
  many,
• 9:40
  many conservative politicians have characterized illegal
• 9:43
  immigration as an invasion.
• 9:45
  But they're saying,
• 9:46
  legally speaking,
• 9:47
  it's an invasion that he can use military force to rub.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Pell.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then last but not least,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: this birthright citizenship order,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: which was written more broadly,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: than...
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Trump had been saying he was going to end birthright citizenship,
• 10:03
  which I think most of us understood to mean that he would say
• 10:07
  that the children of
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: people who are present in the country illegally are not US citizens.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: But he expanded it to say that the children of people who are here on...
• 10:18
  temporary visas,
• 10:20
  present legally,
• 10:21
  but without green cards,
• 10:24
  are also not US citizens.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it seems like Usha Vance would not qualify under this threshold.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: she does qualify because it's perspective,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: there's a fairly normal kind of situation.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: So this is why I wanted to home in on this.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think we both wanted to home in on this because-
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: we're already kind of falling into this trap of talking about it.
• 10:48
  Like Trump wants to do X,
• 10:49
  but like he can't,
• 10:51
  this is not a legal order,
• 10:53
  right?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe the invasion order is,
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: it's clearly pretextual,
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: but they went and they found a statute.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're interpreting it in a novel way.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: People will sue.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: The statute will either cover it or won't.
• 11:09
  And the Supreme court,
• 11:11
  which is in Trump's pocket will come up with the rationale
• 11:14
  either way.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Birthright citizenship is in the Constitution,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: and so it can't be superseded by statute or executive order.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is like supreme law.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So either this gets enjoined and then thrown out ultimately,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: and the Supreme Court says,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: you can't do this,
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: or the Supreme Court says,
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: it's fine.
• 11:37
  Presidents who don't like birthright citizenship can just
• 11:39
  ignore the birthright
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: and it will toggle it on and off as administrations come and go.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: In which case,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: they're basically saying the Constitution is optional for Trump,
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: because it is more plain letter.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: than anything that this Roberts court has had to weigh in on.
• 12:04
  They've shown that they were willing to let Trump run for
• 12:06
  president despite being
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: an insurrectionist,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: like an oath-breaking insurrectionist.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: That I thought was pretty cut and dry, but they disagreed.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is even more cut and dry.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's no normal mode of statutory or,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: I guess I should say,
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: originalist interpretation that would allow them to say,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: yep,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: this order's good.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so if they do, it's a big fucking deal.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: so I mean,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: to explain the birthright citizenship,
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: issue a little bit,
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So the 14th Amendment,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:43
  which comes later in the day of American government in the wake
• 12:49
  of the Civil War,
• 12:51
  says all persons born or naturalized in the United States and
• 12:55
  subject to the
• 12:55
  jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of
• 12:59
  the state wherein
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: they reside.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Then there's more 14th Amendment type.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's more words to it after that.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Equal protection, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the point,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: I guess the political context was that after the Civil War,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: after the passage of the 13th Amendment,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: but in the wake of the Dred Scott decision,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: had...
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: essentially ruled,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: there were many elements to the Dred Scott ruling,
• 13:27
  but one of them was that an enslaved person was not a citizen
• 13:30
  of the United States
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: and thus had no standing to sue at all.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so they were trying to say with this amendment that,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:40
  Southern states could not deny citizenship to their African
• 13:44
  American populations because,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: you
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Prior to that,
• 13:48
  citizenship had mostly been handled at the state level in a way
• 13:51
  that we would find
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: confusing today.
• 13:55
  You know,
• 13:55
  because there wasn't really immigration law in the early 19th century.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, the amendment passes.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's this dangling modifier.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't say dangling modifier.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: I forget how grammar works.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's this clause subject to the jurisdiction thereof.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a case, sorry, I'm trying to look up when it was.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: There was a case in the late 19th century,
• 14:23
  which ruled that a person born on an Indian reservation was not
• 14:29
  a citizen of the
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: United States,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: that they were not subject to the laws thereof.
• 14:35
  And that,
• 14:35
  you know,
• 14:36
  these Indian nations were in some sense like independent nations.
• 14:40
  Yeah,
• 14:40
  independent states of some kind in some relationship with the
• 14:45
  United States,
• 14:46
  right?
• 14:46
  So then there was an act of Congress passed in the 20s sort of
• 14:50
  granting citizenship
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: to all Native Americans.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: But then there was litigation about – there was a guy named Wong Kim Ark.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: There was a Chinese American guy from San Francisco.
• 15:07
  His parents were not United States citizens because they were
• 15:11
  ineligible for
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: naturalization under the terms of Chinese Exclusion Act.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: But he said that he was a United States citizen,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: that he did not need to naturalize,
• 15:23
  but that he was born in the United States and subject to the
• 15:26
  laws thereof.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: The Supreme Court said,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: that's true,
• 15:29
  that Congress could make it impossible for people born in China
• 15:34
  to naturalize if
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: they wanted to.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you can't exclude ethnically Chinese people from citizenship.
• 15:41
  If you were born in the United States and subject to the laws thereof,
• 15:45
  you are a citizen.
• 15:46
  The argument about undocumented people that conservatives make
• 15:52
  is that because they
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: are present in the country illegally,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: they are not,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: quote unquote,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: subject to the laws thereof.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: This has never held up in court.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot of- Well, it's like facially ridiculous.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, I just also want to clarify that the-
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: The way America works,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: American federalism works,
• 16:14
  is that there's a lot of different actors who can try to run
• 16:18
  this argument,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: and it's not a new argument.
• 16:21
  There's lots of right-wing attorney generals or just random
• 16:25
  conservative school
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: districts that don't want to pay for
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: some kids' education.
• 16:30
  I mean,
• 16:31
  it's been floated many,
• 16:33
  many,
• 16:33
  many times over the past 40,
• 16:36
  50 years.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Bob Dole,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: in 1996,
• 16:40
  part of his platform was that we were going to not provide
• 16:44
  educational services to
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: the children of illegal immigrants.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's something that's been talked about a lot.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Courts have never accepted this argument.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no reason under the Constitution that the president making a
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: proclamation would make any kind of difference to this,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 17:03
  Like,
• 17:04
  you could appoint justices who say that,
• 17:08
  like,
• 17:09
  that's not what the 14th Amendment means.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: But, like, the president doesn't decide that.
• 17:14
  like what the text of the constitution means that's not like
• 17:17
  how it works um but
• 17:20
  what he does decide i guess like what the order specifically
• 17:24
  mechanically does is
• 17:26
  it says that um starting in february they're gonna like not
• 17:30
  issue um citizenship
• 17:31
  documents to new kids so obviously they will get sued by that i
• 17:37
  think they have
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: been already at
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: and the way the American legal system works,
• 17:43
  you will sue them in a district where you know there's a lot of
• 17:46
  liberal judges on
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: the bench and they will enjoin this policy.
• 17:52
  And then there will be subsequent litigation that will probably
• 17:55
  take a long time to
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: play out and generate a lot of takes.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So look,
• 17:59
  like I want to get to like why birth rate citizenship is
• 18:02
  actually important in just
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: one minute.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: But like.
• 18:07
  I think that it's fairly normal for presidents of both parties
• 18:11
  to look to the
• 18:12
  constitution and to statutes on the books and try to find novel
• 18:15
  ways to interpret them,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: to advance aims so they don't have to pass new laws.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then they change policy.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody sues to say that's not a faithful interpretation of the law.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: They get enjoined by a forum shopped judge.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then crucially, they honor the injunction.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then ultimately, the Supreme Court resolves the question.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, superficially, this looks like that.
• 18:43
  But I think there's outstanding questions with Trump because he
• 18:46
  feels immune and he
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: behaves with total impunity,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: that if and when the injunction is offered,
• 18:57
  will he honor it or will his administration deny social
• 19:02
  security numbers to,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: to babies born to non-citizen parents?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know the answer to that.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other question I have is like,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: will Sam Alito plus four other justices say,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know what?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Every, you know, Wong Kim Ark was wrongly decided.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're just we're tossing that out.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, what that means for.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: people who thought they were citizens.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: We'll also sort that out later.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I, I like that's the play that Trump is making.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just to keep immigration in the news.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: I actually don't think this is a very good sub.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's not like, like birthright citizenship is popular.
• 19:52
  It is,
• 19:53
  it is,
• 19:53
  he's really just shooting the moon and seeing what he can get
• 19:55
  away with.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And, and so I, to me, it just like, it, it,
• 20:01
  it reads differently than the other executive orders in this
• 20:04
  batch or than any
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: executive order that Joe Biden or Barack Obama or,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: issued.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: we're,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: it's early to say,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: cause as you say,
• 20:16
  like the text of the executive order says it doesn't go take
• 20:20
  effect until February
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: where it's early in the litigation process.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we just don't know.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's worth worrying about.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: do you think if you had to guess,
• 20:33
  do you think that Stephen Miller and and Kristi Noem and Tom
• 20:41
  Holman are going to
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: honor the injunction or not?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, it's like.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Probably, yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: there's a certain flood the zone with shit,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: aspect to these immigration orders.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's so many different things and so many overlapping things.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:05
  a substantive disagreement between Stephen Miller and some of
• 21:08
  our new technology
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: industry friends about...
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: legal work visas.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I thought the most interesting thing about this,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: just like journalistically,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: was the sleight of hand of adding people who,
• 21:23
  like legally present people who are not lawful permanent
• 21:29
  residents to the scope of
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: the order.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: It
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even understand what the constitutional argument would be,
• 21:37
  that a person who's here on a work visa is not subject to the
• 21:43
  laws of the United States.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where that came from, but it's specifically a shot at
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: like the tech guys who were talking about the green card cap for Indians,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because a very normal kind of thing,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: that happens to skilled workers is they come here on employment visas and
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And they do a good job.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: their bosses like them and are like,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: we would like you to keep working here for this company.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And they say, that's amazing.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: if you could file the paperwork to get me an employment-based green card,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: then I can live and work in the United States forever.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that will be great.
• 22:30
  But there's these country by country numerical caps on how many
• 22:35
  visas can go out to
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: any given country.
• 22:38
  If you have ever looked at a chart,
• 22:41
  different countries have very different populations,
• 22:44
  right?
• 22:44
  So if you happen to be from Panama,
• 22:48
  it's not that hard to get on the list.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're from India, it's borderline impossible.
• 22:54
  So you have lots and lots of people who've been working in the
• 22:56
  United States for a
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: long time on rotating temporary work visas,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 23:02
  you know,
• 23:02
  and they get married,
• 23:03
  they have kids,
• 23:03
  they own houses,
• 23:05
  and their kids are U.S.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: citizens.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So when they grow up,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: they just,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:11
  are citizens and they live and work and do things and can even
• 23:13
  then apply for
• 23:16
  family unification visas on behalf of their parents and get
• 23:19
  them made lawful
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: permanent residence.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: If the kids are construed as non-citizens,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: then when they turned 21, they would become illegal immigrants.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like people who would have to,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: quote unquote,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: go back to India where they weren't born and have never lived.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: So like that's wild.
• 23:45
  And,
• 23:46
  you know,
• 23:46
  again,
• 23:46
  like- And correct me if I'm wrong,
• 23:50
  the order also says-
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: if you have one parent who's a citizen,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: that's good enough,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: but they,
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: at least one,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: which creates a whole other permanent resident.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:02
  Which creates a,
• 24:04
  a bunch of other unknowns about like single mothers and
• 24:12
  abandoned children.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot here.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: I just, I thought it was interesting because the,
• 24:19
  The symbolism of a fight about illegal immigrants,
• 24:24
  you know,
• 24:24
  is clear enough.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Trump in his talk,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:30
  talked about millions of criminal aliens who he said he was
• 24:34
  going to deport,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: which I just don't think is a correct baseline.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: But like that's,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:39
  Trump really likes to talk about illegal immigrants who also
• 24:44
  commit non-immigration crimes.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's like what his yak, yak, yak is.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Stephen Miller is like an honest-to-God anti-immigration ideologue,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: who,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: when Trump was president before,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: they cut down every legal visa program that they could find.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's a big...
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: into the immigrant literature, et cetera, et cetera.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: So this order was written as like the biggest,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:09
  kind of like shotgun spray against immigration that you could
• 25:14
  conceive of.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what actually happens?
• 25:19
  I think the invasion clause and the use of the military is
• 25:25
  going to be the...
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: Bigger question in terms of,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: the rule of law and how that stands up,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: because it's a lot easier for me to imagine John Roberts saying,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 25:40
  I have to defer to the commander in chief in terms of the
• 25:43
  definition of an invasion.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this supersedes the Posse Comitatus Act and,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: he can use active duty military on U.S.
• 25:51
  soil and in the Southwest than it is for me to imagine him
• 25:55
  throwing out this kind
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: of longstanding precedent about birthright citizenship.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: The invasion argument is insane, but it's like genuinely novel.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: To the point where you could be like, eh.
• 26:10
  Also,
• 26:10
  courts all the time defer to slightly loopy national security
• 26:15
  claims that presidents make.
• 26:17
  So,
• 26:18
  you know,
• 26:18
  I mean,
• 26:19
  on the one hand,
• 26:21
  voters really do want to secure the border.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, you know, I don't know.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: The military operating on American soil...
• 26:33
  outside the bounds of a normal legal system,
• 26:37
  it seems like bad things could happen.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
• 26:41
  And then,
• 26:42
  okay,
• 26:42
  so...
• 26:47
  I feel like birthright citizenship is so taken for granted because...
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: People have,
• 26:54
  conservatives have claimed to believe that birthright
• 26:58
  citizenship doesn't entitle
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: literally anyone born on US soil to citizenship for a long time.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: But in practice,
• 27:06
  I think most people working in politics or who have any
• 27:10
  interest in politics know
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: somebody who obtained citizenship by birthright,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: like by
• 27:16
  Their parents weren't citizens,
• 27:17
  but they were born here and that's why they're citizens,
• 27:19
  right?
• 27:21
  And so because it's just taken for granted as part of how the
• 27:26
  United States works,
• 27:28
  I don't think people put a lot of thought into why it's
• 27:30
  important and why it makes
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: the country better,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: stronger,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: more easily able to rejuvenate itself.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like what it...
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: what it conveys to the rest of the world about the U.S.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: as an open and free society and so on.
• 27:48
  And it makes it hard to imagine how it would change America for
• 27:51
  it to just be shut off.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Just like,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: president came in and said that doesn't work that way anymore,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: at least not while I'm president.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I find myself struggling to convey an explanation that I think has...
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: like easy persuasive heft.
• 28:13
  It's,
• 28:13
  it's abstract and it,
• 28:16
  uh,
• 28:16
  but like,
• 28:16
  I don't know,
• 28:18
  maybe you can do a better job than me.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: like a U S without birthright citizenship is a worse place because,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: whatever I say,
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 28:33
  it's bad to be deporting people who have lived in the United
• 28:38
  States of America
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: their whole lives and haven't done anything wrong.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's like the basic.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's like the justice for the individual children.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 28:49
  But like the United States of America is better for the fact
• 28:53
  that we don't do this because...
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's an important symbol,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: not just a symbol,
• 29:00
  but it's a meaningful statement of the idea that the United
• 29:04
  States is not a blood
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: and soil ethnic state,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: but that we are a civic nation with a constitution.
• 29:13
  There's a reason that this arises out of the Civil War and the
• 29:18
  campaign against
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: slavery and that...
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what to say.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 29:25
  I feel like it's something that we should work on as a
• 29:30
  podcasting duo because it might...
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of...
• 29:36
  high-dudgeon talk in the Trump years about defending norms and
• 29:40
  the importance of this and that.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think over time,
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: instincts get refined,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: and people get better at explaining not just like,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: this is abnormal,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: but why is the norm good?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Why do we care?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Why is corruption bad?
• 29:56
  These are questions that you don't think about until you have
• 30:00
  to defend the norm,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: and then you're like,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: oh yeah,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: it's not self-explanatory.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, but so I mean, I do think that the context here, right?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: this is kind of classic,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: backlash,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: overreach,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: backlash sort of politics,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: when people get very,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: very steamed up about illegal immigration,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: they start getting steamed up about...
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: um, the penumbras and emanations of the illegal immigration.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea that like,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: it's like people are coming here,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: they're having these anchor babies,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how you get this kind of push, et cetera.
• 30:40
  But it's like,
• 30:41
  obviously like,
• 30:43
  actually you should have a high level of border security.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then this is not like a mainstream topic, you know, like,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the actual issue here.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that Trump,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: unless Trump is totally ineffectual at shutting down asylum,
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: which I don't think he will be,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: the day after that,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: it's not like,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: what are people going to care about?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say it's even a tough issue for him.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that it's an opposition issue.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, where he's, like, complaining about it, complaining about it.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: What you saw when he was president before was that opinion,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: swung to become much more pro-immigration because,
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: he was just running around being a dick constantly.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: And there was no big problem.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see what happens.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I...
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what it looks like when you fire up TikTok or Twitter.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: I guess, I don't even know where, is TikTok working again?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's back.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: TikTok's definitely back.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Twitter or TikTok or Facebook or whatever,
• 32:01
  how much those algorithms are being mucked with to downplay the
• 32:07
  human consequences
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: of what's already happened.
• 32:09
  But in my little blue sky bubble,
• 32:12
  I saw the pictures of crying mothers in Juarez,
• 32:16
  Mexico.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I could intuit the terror of the people sent back to Afghanistan.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd like to think that it will break through,
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: even though there's so much right-wing control of media now.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's not even what I'm saying.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying that like,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: for a day,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: a week,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: a month,
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: maybe a year,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: you have arguments that pit kind of squishy liberal humanistic instincts,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: about crying mothers against people who are like mad,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: about whatever asylum people in their town.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: But eventually, what Trump has done has worked.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't have people crossing the border and making asylum claims,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: at which point it's like,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: what is the legal quest to end birthright citizenship even about?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think it just goes away as a topic, except among totally insane people.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: but like in an environment of backlash,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: like the odds of this order surviving court challenge,
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think go down.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like it's, these are connected things, I think.
• 33:42
  And I think,
• 33:42
  you know,
• 33:43
  what drove the backlash to Trump in his first term?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, he was a dick, but like, A, he was a very public dick.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: So we all watched him be a dick.
• 33:51
  And then there was child separation and a stampede by media to
• 33:58
  the border and
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: to put their eyes on this stuff.
• 34:02
  And like,
• 34:02
  I think people were genuinely shocked and thus lashed back,
• 34:07
  right?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm saying is that like,
• 34:11
  I think like part of the background context for that was like a
• 34:15
  strong sense among
• 34:16
  most people that like the caravan and this kind of stuff was
• 34:21
  like kind of fake.
• 34:24
  Yeah,
• 34:24
  and I guess what I'm asking is like- But that's several years
• 34:28
  into Trump being president.
• 34:30
  Are they going to be able to create a simulacrum where even if
• 34:36
  there's no crossings
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: and asylums shut down,
• 34:40
  that the problem has been solved and thus the political
• 34:43
  imperative to do anything
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: about birthright citizenship
• 34:47
  goes away or are they going to succeed at making people think
• 34:50
  that the state of
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: crisis is permanent no matter what steps are taken to secure the border.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have to go farther.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: We have to stop the anchor baby problem or whatever.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have no idea.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a little bit unpredictable, but I just think a lot of what
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: is driving immigration right now,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's like people are clearly upset about immigration.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And like, that's been clear, you know, for a while now.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we'll have to see how that looks.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know how Trump's going to try to play it.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: is he going to be interested six months from now in telling people,
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: the border's still in crisis,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: we need to do 27 other things?
• 35:44
  Or is he going to want to go on,
• 35:45
  like,
• 35:46
  the Trump border crisis victory tour?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: He tried when he was president before,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: and I think this was kind of eccentric,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: he tried to do permanent crisis politics.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's, like, how you got child separation, right?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Was he was, like,
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: We need to do like another other thing.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, but then he ended child separation.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, I ended child separation.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like you tried to claim, you know.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like lots and lots and lots of different things happened.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:21
  illegal crossings are already at a low level because Trump is
• 36:25
  shutting down.
• 36:26
  Part of the reason why illegal crossings have came to a low
• 36:30
  level is that the Biden
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: administration is
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: creating more legal pathways through the CBP1 app and this CHNV program.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: So this, again, four countries, Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, Venezuela.
• 36:46
  If you can show the American government that you have relatives
• 36:51
  or family in the US
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: who will sponsor you,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: and you're from those four countries,
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: you can get
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: asylum or humanitarian parole on a kind of expedited basis.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea,
• 37:03
  Biden's idea there was you could create a more orderly flow of
• 37:07
  people and not have
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: these kind of,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: media blowups,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 37:11
  Because it's like if a guy flies from Nicaragua to stay with
• 37:16
  his Nicaraguan cousin
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: in some town where there's a big Nicaraguan community,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: it's a non-story,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it brings the numbers down.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's been Biden's approach.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Trump is shutting all of that down,
• 37:30
  which some people think the like immigration experts who I've
• 37:36
  talked to think is
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: going to lead to more illegal crossings,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: not fewer.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that will give Trump a kind of a secondary crisis to deal with.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: But then, you know,
• 37:48
  if it's true that if you mobilize the full strength of the
• 37:51
  American army at the
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Southwestern border and like shoot at people who are crossing it,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: like I,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: I assume you can get people to stop.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, um,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then I don't know.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't know what you do.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, who knows what will happen there?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And Trump has at various times mused about,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: shooting border crossers or bringing back family separations,
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that'll be sort of the political crisis to come.
• 38:18
  Birthright citizenship seems like both so flagrantly illegal
• 38:23
  and also abstract and
• 38:25
  also like obviously can be enjoined in court that I just don't
• 38:29
  know that we'll ever
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: actually see a kind of,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:34
  acute conflict over it in the way that we're going to about the
• 38:39
  like actual actions
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: at the Southwestern border.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: All right, fair enough.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's my take.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's stop here,
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: and on the other side,
• 38:47
  we'll talk about the January 6th pardons and maybe get into how
• 38:54
  Biden ended,
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: like the Lake and Riley Act Democrats,
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: et cetera,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: et cetera.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Love the Lake and Riley Act.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to hear us fight about that stuff,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: let's just go to politics.fm and upgrade your subscription.