Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Rajendran Dandapani on Skills Over Scores: The Zoho Schools Approach (#055)

Transcript

Rajendran Dandapani on Skills Over Scores: The Zoho Schools Approach (#055) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_05: So I will tell you stuff that I look up to.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_05: I hope to imbibe in myself someday.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_05: These are things.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_05: So this whole myth of being unbiased, being equally concerned and responsible for everyone.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_05: I think we should all stop believing in that myth.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_05: It is a pretty biased and polarized world out there.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_05: And you are doing it right when you're doing it wrong.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_05: You need to be biased.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_05: You need to be overdoing something, underdoing something.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_05: You need to spend more time with some people, less time with others.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_05: It has you cannot look for equilibrium there.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_05: Some people need more time.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_05: You need to work with them.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_05: Some people need to be left alone.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_05: You can't keep poking your nose into them, and so on.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_05: So the first thing is that.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_05: Stop trying to be fair.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_05: You have no idea what is fairness, first of all.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_05: Only when you have that, you can even try.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_05: So stop doing that.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_05: The second, I would say, is transparency, openness, transparency, candid, instant feedback.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_05: You cannot postpone giving feedback.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_05: Of course, feedback has to be in private.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_05: Appreciation can be in public, but criticism has to be in private, but never postpone.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_05: It has to be instantaneous, it has to be momentary.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_05: You cannot wait till appraisal time.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_05: That's a very important lesson.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: The third, once upon a time, it used to be Today's episode is proudly brought to you by Effortless.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Effortless is the ultimate solution for startups and SMBs seeking seamless money management and compliance handling.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Effortless wasn't just created by anyone, it was crafted by chartered accountants and entrepreneurs who understand the pulse of startups and SMBs.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Visit www.goeffortless.ai and embark on a journey that will redefine the way you do business.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: So Raj, let me dive straight into the conversation.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think uh one thing I've been amazed uh as I look at the body of work that you put out and uh the work in terms of the speeches and talks that you do, uh, is really around this whole you know life of yours, where uh you know, right from school to IIT and then subsequent to IIT, there are a lot of, I would say, the crests and truffs that you have gone through, right?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so can you talk a little bit about what has it been and what's been your learning out of those years?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that's something which is very, very important because kids in India uh really think that there's only one way to go, right?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Which is really you've got to be top of your class, and then uh you know you assume that uh you'll probably keep topping till you retire, but literally life is not like that.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of learnings at in the early stage of your career.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, can you talk about that and what's been your learning?
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_05: Uh see, in uh tech terms, there is this phrase that developers often use of um it's a half-funny phrase.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_05: There's a lot of profound wisdom also hidden inside.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_05: They call it converting a bug into a feature, right?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_05: So there were too many bugs in my life.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_05: I fell, I stumbled, I didn't learn proper lessons, I didn't do what I should have done, I did what I shouldn't have done, and picked up a lot of good advice along the way.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_05: And I thought it uh makes sense to convert those bugs into features.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_05: So take your pick from uh being a topper in class at school to dropping out of IIT, being kicked out of IIT, being rusticated, saying don't come back.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_05: That's what happened to me.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_05: And uh that taught me such profound life lessons about prioritizing, about uh following your dream and the threats and obstacles uh on the way if you do that.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_05: And that also laid the foundation for considering going out on a limb and uh homeschooling my son.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_05: He's 24 years old now, but he didn't go past class eight at school.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_05: I took him out of school and created my own curriculum for him.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_05: And uh, my wife and I, we worked together, we skewed our working time, we sacrificed our vacations, we created our own uh uh little learning environment for him, and that was an amazing experience.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_05: And uh that again became a source of knowledge and uh a fountain of wisdom that I could peep into and take a bucket out of to share with my team.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_05: I hated the internet for its web browsing, right?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_05: The HTML, CSS, JavaScript mess, right?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_05: Some people may hate me for saying that, but uh it wasn't even a uh a real programming language, it was a mishmash of stuff hurriedly put together, and uh I hated it.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_05: And when the iOS development environment came along and uh uh Steve Jobs blessed the world with its iPhone, I really fell head over heels for it and uh mobile development as an integrated development environment with touch and beautiful, sleek glass and steel, and no HTML involved.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_05: It's all a silent connection to the web, or no, not the web, to the internet with data being brought in and repositioned for a uh screen full of content.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_05: That uh really made my day, and uh that was what uh was my second coming, I would say, in uh uh my company at Zoho Co-op.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, and putting all this together, we realized at Zoho that uh um the only real learning that's going to stick is the learning you do when you are doing.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_05: Earn by doing, and so Zoho Schools of Learning was born, and uh I've been running it for the past 20 years now.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_05: So it's a it's a bug becoming a feature again and again.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_05: We make a mistake, we we celebrate it by painting it in a new color and sharing it with the world as one less thing to do if you are looking at doing the right things.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So, so uh I would like to uh you know stay there for a minute.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh there are so many people who uh you know there are only X percentage who can top the class, right?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the rest surely will be probably the second, the third, and probably the last.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh so you really talk about this whole thing about uh you know achievement at school is really not performance at work, right?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a beautiful stuff that I picked up.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: So if I if I'm somebody listening to this conversation, uh and I say I have to change my mindset, especially youngsters who are actually listening to this and saying, you know what, hey, am I good enough?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I didn't crack my IIT, I'm not going to my top school, I'm not uh doing this, so am I fit to be the best in what I do?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so therefore, what is the mindset change that you went through, which you would like to share with the people who are listening to something like this?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_05: One primary mindset change is um winning at all costs.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_05: Somehow that seems to have become ingrained in our educational academic environment.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_05: Winning at all costs is so toxic to the real work environment.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_05: Um, in fact, you can even give up winning if you're going to be helpful in somebody else's winning.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_05: I think uh it's called the winning way.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_05: Um our man, uh the cricket uh uh commentator Harsha Boghle has written an amazing book called The Winning Way, where he talks about he breaks it down so beautifully and talks about how teamwork is all about helping the other person win, shining in the spotlight, basking in that reflected glow.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_05: We I I I go to a lot of colleges to give talks, and um there are many certificates and awards that are given to the 100% attendance guy, the um highest uh uh uh salary, uh first first month salary uh girl, and so on.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_05: And I ask them, the chairman of the institution, I ask them sometimes, where are those who haven't gotten a job yet?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_05: Whose fault is that?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_05: Are they even allowed into this auditorium?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes I am told this is only for those who have been given a job.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_05: I tell them this is a motivational talk I have come here for.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_05: If there is anybody needing motivation, it is those people.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_05: Get them here.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_05: I used to tell them.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_05: And uh, we need to institute uh an award or probably some credits for collaboration.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_05: It's all about competition, it's not at all about collaboration.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_05: I remember how I feel ashamed of it now.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_05: I remember how in school and in college, when I'm giving an exam, uh, somebody else next to me, good friend of mine, but uh I can't let them see because there is only one uh seat that I am uh uh vying for.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_05: Ten people of us are vying for the same seat.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_05: This artificial scarcity has been created, and suddenly we became sworn enemies.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_05: Come out of the exam hall, we are back friends again.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_05: So, this concept of uh a timed exam where you can't refer a book and you have to do, you can't share and learn.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_05: This is so artificial.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_05: Even uh in my team, in my company, when we interview a person, uh, we try not to give them that timed thing.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_05: Here is two hours, here is the challenge.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_05: Do not refer to the internet or to the chat GPT and uh uh do this work for me.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_05: It is so silly because it is artificial, it is no way similar to the kind of work they will be doing day to day when they become an employee in the team.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_05: When they become an employee in the team, they'll have the internet, they will not have time pressure, they will have six people to support them.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_05: So, can we create an environment that is close to that, an incubatory environment?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_05: That is what we try to see.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_05: So, my message to all learners who are uh watching this who are probably as pissed off as I am about um this artificial scarcity and this rat race.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_05: I think there is so much out there that we can do as individuals without being sucked into this um cutthroat competition, as they call it, and uh so much self-learning, so much uh charting your own path that you can do.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, I don't think this rat race is worth it.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: So clearly, what you're saying is uh script your own path and uh you know uh start working on it, and that's something uh that you should find your way and don't get worried about the rat race.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's really what you're talking about, and uh it's uh it's a very, very tough path, but slow path, but uh halfway through maybe you'll be able to really speed up.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's really the way you should think, is what you're saying.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_05: Correct.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_05: Uh to draw a uh an uncouth uh example, perhaps.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I would say um it's the difference between an arranged marriage and a love marriage.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_05: An arranged marriage is all scripted, and sometimes you feel I didn't ask for it, I had no say in it.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_05: Compare it with the love marriage where the boy chases the girl or the girl chases the boy, and against all odds, in fact, in fact, against society, against parents, they chart their own path, only each other for support and survival.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_05: But you know why they win?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_05: They win because they are there for each other and they have nobody else to blame.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_05: They chose that path, so they are able to grind through it, demonstrate grit, and that motivation comes naturally.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_05: You are you are okay.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_05: I think uh I didn't pick a bad example because the word love and passion are common to both.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_05: You are desperately, madly in love with in love to love with what you're doing, you are passionately in love, and hence nothing else matters.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_05: You chart your own path.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_05: There are going to be difficulties.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_05: My son, for example, after graduating out of um school by class eight, he didn't join NIOS or any other structured curriculum.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_05: I created the curriculum for him in association with uh a teacher in Australia, uh a software engineer in America, and so on.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_05: We put it together and uh he played along and he joined Zoho Schools.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_05: And I thought he's set for life.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_05: Things are going to be great.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_05: And suddenly, one fine morning he comes and tells me, I want to do organic farming.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_05: That's what I'm interested in.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_05: And uh, we know we have been watching the little I know about farming.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_05: I know it is difficult, there is not much money in it, and it's all dependent on the gods, uh, the rain god and the sun god, and so on.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_05: And uh I ask him, Are you ready for this?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_05: This is going to be really challenging.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_05: And he says, I want to try it out.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_05: So he goes out and then COVID hits, and then he comes back.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_05: And now the interesting thing here is he has found a common uh uh overlap.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_05: He's doing software for farming.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, yes.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_05: So that that's the that's how things fall in place.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_05: Things fall in place when you're ready for them, when you are open-minded enough to allow that experimentation to happen.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, okay.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_05: So many of the people who are on the beaten track, the the road more often traveled.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, it's all well beaten.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_05: You can't really make out the nuances because people have thousands of people have gone ahead in front of you.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_05: Thousands are you can't even pause to look around because thousands are coming behind you.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_05: There's no time to smell the roses, so to speak.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Which brings me to uh Zoho schools that you run, Raj, which is your uh you know, your life passion, the way you've built Zoho uh schools is a case study by itself.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so talk to me about uh how you are you look at Zoho schools, the learning there, and what makes the learning there very, very different from how learning happens in a traditional environment.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_05: Good example, good uh question, but before uh we get on, um not just my life's passion, it's my CEO's life passion.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_05: It is every one of my 25, 30 members, faculty members who we have picked from the length and breadth of the organization, their passion too.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_05: I am I am just the uh channelizer to speak.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_05: Not just the catalyst.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_05: You could you could say that, yeah.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_05: So it started uh long back um because we we felt that there was no correlation between school, college performance and work performance.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_05: Something was missing.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_05: Toppers weren't performing, last benchers were blowing our minds, and so on.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_05: Also, we weren't a great brand.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_05: Now probably we are a little more known, but at that time, 2004, we weren't allowed to first day recruit at colleges, the branded colleges.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_05: So most of our recruitment was through word of mouth, um, tier three, tier three uh cities, tier three colleges, towns, and so on.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_05: When a student comes in and uh we give them their tasks, uh they seem clueless about software engineering.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_05: They have done computer science, but they don't know software engineering.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_05: These two are very different.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_05: It's like uh doing Maggie noodles for your dinner tonight versus cooking a feast for 2,000 people.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_05: The game changes.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_05: So that's not taught at all.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_05: And user experience, UX, they think it is the designer's game.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_05: Not at all.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_05: A software engineer needs to know that.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_05: So there were a hundred other such gaps that we thought no educational academic institution can really impart primarily because of a practical, frank, but sorry state of affairs.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_05: The salary package that an engineer, software engineer gets is orders of magnitude higher than the salary package any computer science department prof gets in any college.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_05: That shouldn't be the case, but unfortunately that's the case.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_05: Which means where are the best uh minds, where are the most forward-thinking minds?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_05: They're all in various companies doing research.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_05: And that is why you see driverless car technology is coming from companies like Tesla rather than institutions.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_05: Where is the news programming language coming out of?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_05: Go is coming out of Google.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_05: Swift is coming out of Apple.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_05: It's not some college research institution that's pumping out programming languages.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_05: So we thought we can be the solution to the problem that we are perceiving.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_05: That's how it started.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_05: We went to a nearby school, we identified some sick students, fire in the belly, not enough money to finance themselves through uh engineering or medicine.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_05: We talked to their parents, we gave them a test in basic mathematical aptitude, English, multiple choice.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_05: We attracted them, brought them to our institute, to our um uh uh uh Adventnet, it was called uh Zoho Campus, and we put them in the same room as two senior software engineers.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_05: We didn't look for professors from outside, we rather drew our teaching talent from within the company.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_05: So people who were, I have been there, I have done that, I now want to help the next generation, that kind of people.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_05: They continue to come.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_05: We have more people wanting to teach at Zoho schools than they can accommodate, even today, 20 years on.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_05: So that was uh how this first critical mass was created.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_05: And uh, you may have heard of the hole in the wall experiment, Sugata, Sugata Minta, I think.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_05: So uh in Delhi, NIIT he was, I think, he was looking out of his window, there was a slum, and uh he had the sudden idea can I create a computer window where only uh kids can put their hand in, touch the keyboard, touch the mouse, there is a G UI in front.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_05: These kids don't even know English.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_05: Forget about computer operation.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_05: So he tracks using a camera, he tracks how these kids learn.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_05: And uh one month in, there's a girl doing Indian national flag in MS paint.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_05: There's another boy typing out numbers in spreadsheet and doing some all by themselves.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_05: That's almost similar to what we saw at Zoho schools.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, most of the children we attracted were not from um rich schools which had computer centers and so on.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_05: Even educated parents was a rarity there.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_05: So these students are seeing a computer for the first time, but uh six months in, the kind of learning they had, and we understood why that learning had come.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_05: We realized that learning was because we abolished fees, which means across the strata we could get good quality talent.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_05: We abolished examinations, which means students weren't uh constrained artificially to learn stuff simply to pass.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_05: You learn what you're interested in.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_05: We will try we will try to show you how interesting things can be.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_05: We will expose you to amazing stuff.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_05: You pick and choose.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_05: It is a it is a buffet in front of you.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_05: You desire and we abolished attendance.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_05: We said we will not mark attendance.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_05: Have you come today?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_05: Why didn't you come?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_05: You need this much minimum and all that.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_05: We paid you a stipend, we abolished attendance, we abolished examinations, and we let the students lose with.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: Computer.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: We were there as a guide and assistant available to mentor you whenever you needed.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_05: And uh that seemed to work wonders because that is primarily how Zoho itself operates as a company.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_05: When new employees join us, they usually feel that they are in a cave of wonders.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_05: Everything around them is amazing, but there is no map.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_05: Where do I go?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_05: What next?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_05: We say go, stumble, fall, learn, push yourself up, dust up, move on.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_05: We give you that time, we give you that long rope, we give you interesting opportunities to choose from.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: We teach you very early in the game that you can't have it all.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_05: It's like food.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_05: Even if you are an ice cream conosia, I've spread 31 different ice cream varieties in front of you, you are not going to eat them all.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_05: So we teach you prioritizing, we teach you choosing, and they surprise us with the amazing things they do.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_05: It's been happening year after year, 20 years now.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: So there are different tracks that are there in Zoho Schools, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, uh, can you talk to us about the tracks and uh how do you really integrate them, you know, when they actually go to the workplace?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because people have silos in their heads, you know what?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be a developer, I want to be a designer, I want to be a marketer, I want to be, but if you really look at the world, the world does not look at you that way, right?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, how do you really put them together and how do you how do you cook them up for this real world?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_05: So, first I'll tell you about the tracks.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_05: It started as a tech school.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_05: We taught them programming.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_05: English, mathematics, and programming were the three subjects we taught them.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_05: But over time, as I explained uh a while ago, we realized what was special about Zoho Schools was not the curriculum we had chosen, was not the faculty.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_05: Come on, we're not the world's best in terms of teaching and whatnot.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_05: It wasn't about the company either.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_05: It was about the environment, the low pressure environment we had created for these students, and uh we gave we gave them, we we put them in close proximity to the CEO himself, to the other senior managers in the company.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_05: They they'll go for lunch.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_05: We didn't have a Zoho schools lunch hall on purpose, so they'll go to the Zoho lunch hall and learn how to sit, learn how to listen, learn how to participate in discussions.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_05: Our CEO conducts an open house every week.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_05: So anybody can ask, including anonymously, anybody can ask a question.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_05: These students learn by listening to the answers from the CEO himself.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_05: I call this osmotic learning.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_05: It is learning because you are near it.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_05: You you just you you resonate and you learn.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_05: So we created the Zoo School of Technology, and then another was born in Tenkasi School of Technology.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_05: Then we learned that uh it is not uh the domain that we are teaching, it is the environment we are teaching it in.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_05: So school of design was born.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_05: School of design, we teach them animation, graphic arts, um, visual design, user experience design, and also the the whole concept of laying out a workflow for a user to um experience um delight, I would say.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_05: And uh brochure wear, animation, uh physical environments like in booths and uh uh trade shows, how do you design 3D environments, all the way to basic icon work, product UI, and uh screen flow, uh alert boxes, everything the gamut is being taught.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_05: And the School of Business was born a year later, where we kind of uh teach them how to uh do customer service, uh, engage with customers, customer experience management, and we also teach them sales and marketing.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_05: So it's uh it's now like you pointed out, a bit of everything.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_05: We have a school of tech, a school of design, and a school of business.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_05: But we realized that there were students who were who were hungry for more, who already knew programming, who had some background in business understanding.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_05: So we wanted to challenge them.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_05: So we created the school for advanced study.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_05: Um, I named it after Princeton.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_05: Princeton has a school for advanced study, which is where Einstein went, by the way.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_05: He used to teach there, it seems.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_05: So the School for Advanced Study just exposes you to more than one school.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_05: So you can be attached to the School of Design, but because you're a SAS student, School for Advanced Study student, we allow you to participate in classes, submit assignments, engage with the other students and faculty from School of Technology or School of Business.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_05: So each stud each school allows you to take a little dip into the other two schools.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_05: That's been a good experience for us till now.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and therefore uh go ahead, go ahead, please.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Please go ahead.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_05: Along the way, we also created a school for graduate studies because so many of them told us that you have these two rules.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_05: You have to be 17 to 20 age, and you can't have a college degree.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_05: That's the entrance rule for school uh Zoho schools.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_05: And they said, uh, why are you holding that against me that I have a college degree?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_05: I'm ready to throw it and come join you.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_05: Will you let me in?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_05: So we created the school for graduate studies, which means you can be a graduate, you shouldn't have gotten a job yet.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_05: You are in the cusp and you are looking to somehow make that grade.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_05: So we are here conducting a boot camp for you, a three-month boot camp where you polish your skills and get ready for an interview at Zoho School, uh, at Zoho Corp.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_05: We also launched Marupadi, which is a woman empowerment program, uh, a return to work sort of thing.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_05: We've been running it for the past two years now.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, any age group, but um, you need to be a woman who must have worked somewhere for a while in an IT tech environment, and uh you must have had a break here more than a couple of years also.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_05: Fine.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_05: So we train you again and we place you into the organization.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so how many students uh have graduated, or let me not use the word graduated, how many students have uh got inspired and uh you know started doing it we call it ungraduation, really.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, ungraduation.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's I would call it ungraduation.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: So how many of them have ungraduated?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_05: So uh we are not affiliated to any uh university or organization, and hence we don't offer certificates.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_05: And uh along the way, though, a couple of universities approached us.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_05: One from Tamil Nadu, one from Karnataka, one from Telangana.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_05: They said, continue doing what you're doing, but uh can we offer a certificate?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_05: Can we understand, do an MOU of sorts?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_05: And we told them we don't value paper, even our own certificate is printed in paper, so we won't value that.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_05: We will only value what the person brings to the table.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_05: And we also told them, uh, are you okay with no attendance and no exams?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_05: We haven't heard from them since.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_05: So um we right now take about 250 students every year.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_05: We started with six students way back in 2004 and slowly, gradually, organically growing.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_05: So about 1800 students have been graduated till now.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_05: All almost 1800 are working in Zoho today.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_05: So Zoho has thousands, uh 16,000 employees today, uh, 1800 of whom are graduates from Zoho schools.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_05: So if you enter a lift, yeah, 10 member lift, 10 passenger lift, one of them will be uh Zoho schools graduate.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Including one of the yeah, so one of the things, uh Raj, when you uh look at this kind of education and you look at the engineering talent and the pool, largely India is an IT services uh you know uh hub, if I were to call it for the world.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh India is not really a product hub for the world.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And there is a very big mindset shift in what I believe you talk about, and I I pretty much resonate with it, which is really the ability to work in ambiguity, have a certain amount of contextual awareness when you are actually building a product versus delivering or building a service uh you know mindset.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so is there a very big difference if India has to become a product nation?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_05: A couple of uh top-of-mind thoughts that come to me, I'll share them.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_05: The first is being proud enough to put your name on it.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_05: I read about it in uh one of Steve Jobs' biographies, the first Macintosh, uh the 1984 one, um had no user-serviceable parts inside.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_05: The back was molded, it wasn't screwed, which means you need to break it open, if at all.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_05: So it was never opened.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_05: No customer opened the Macintosh.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_05: And uh when it was broken open, only then in the Kylan Kadai, right, in the uh junk shop, they discovered that Steve Jobs had invited every one of the original engineers who worked on it to sign in the back of the inside of the cover.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_05: So there are some 30 signatures, including Steve's himself and Wozniak's, which will never be seen by anybody.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_05: Bill Atkinson is there, but it'll never be seen by anybody.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_05: What kind of pride was that?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_05: What kind of achievement was that?
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_05: You you put it, your name is there.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_05: You're staking your name for your saying, trust this quality, it's going to be amazing.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_05: It's done by me.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_05: I think this mindset comes only when you build products.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_05: If you're going to be in a service organization doing it for money, you pay me money, I give you work.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_05: You pay me some more money, I give you some more work.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_05: You stop paying me money, I go on to the next client.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_05: This kind of ownership will never come.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_05: In fact, I have worked in some client-like servicing organizations where we were not allowed to put our name.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_05: We have we were we were script monkeys.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_05: We have to write stuff, give it to them, they will sanitize it, write, put their own name on it, remove the logo, put their logo, and use it.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_05: So that's a dehumanizing uh feeling for that to happen.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_05: You're doing it, it's it's almost like patriotism versus being a mercenary.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_05: So uh never send a mercenary to uh murder your enemy because you will be murdered the next day.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_05: Because he's going to pay more and say, murder the person who sent you, and the mercenary will do it.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_05: So that is uh one mindset.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_05: The other mindset I learned that from my wife, uh Radha, uh, who runs Zoho Mail and Zoho Workplace Suite.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_05: It is 18 years since she started that journey.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_05: 18 years ago, I saw her move into the team.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_05: Why?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_05: More than 18, 19 years, I think.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_05: Imagine being at the helm of affairs, actively developing, designing, pushing teams, uh, merging with products, evaluating customers, evaluating competitors for 19 years.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_05: That that ability to sustain that stamina of passion.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_05: Passion is useful, but only if it has stamina.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_05: Can you I call it I call it enduring stamina?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_05: Enduring, yeah.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_05: That that endurance, I don't think you get it when you work in a uh client mode.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_05: You need to be uh growing, which is something I am truly proud of with respect to Zoho.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_05: If you look at any of the flagship products, Zoho Mail, Zoho um projects, Zoho CRM, you go back to its version 1.0, the person who created that product is still around.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_05: Uh if you remember the Harry Potter series, the movies, there is this um a ghost in the um Hogwarts castle, uh headless Nick, he was called.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_05: He was one of the oldest uh students, still running around, he's dead, but he's still running around inside.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_05: So we have so many nearly headless Nicks in the company who live and breathe the product, who still know some of these important architectural decisions that were taken.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_05: That is so important.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: So uh this importance of uh uh you know contextual awareness, working in ambiguity, uh, you know, not knowing, uh I think you use a very interesting thing about the difference between a compass and a map.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, uh, and most often uh uh it's important to uh be ready to handle a compass and not a map, right?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you are working in such organizations.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: So for somebody who's in engineering, I I know you don't like the word tech, okay?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: So uh so in engineering, somebody who's building uh product who's in uh you know who's in uh uh you know who's building uh technology, if I were to call it, uh how is it important to have a compass mindset and not a map mindset?
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_05: Nice.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_05: I I'll clarify what I meant by compass and the map.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_05: Uh if it comes from that uh silly story I read when I was a kid at school uh about two fools, one is uh giving directions about how to come home, and uh that person says uh there'll be a uh buffalo uh lying down on the street.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_05: At that point, turn left.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_05: But the buffalo has moved on.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_05: This person is still looking for that buffalo and hence gets lost, right?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_05: So that's the difference between a compass and a map.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_05: The earth is shifting under us.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_05: Even before we learn Chat GPT, Chat GPT 4.0 has come, and uh things are changing as we speak.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_05: Students come to us, parents come to us, and they ask us uh what are the books recommended?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_05: What is the curriculum?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, where is it printed?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_05: What books?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_05: And I tell them, again, only half jokingly, uh, we do not believe in books because if it is printed, it might already be obsolete.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_05: That's how fast things are changing.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_05: Imagine somebody printing a book that says uh chat GPT for dummies that will be obsolete before the book comes to Higgin Bottoms.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_05: It has to be a web page, a document that is constantly updated.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_05: That's the only chance it has got of being uh really useful, right?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_05: So that's the context of the compass versus maps, and it comes from Aito, an MIT professor.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, I forget his full name.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_05: He had talked about uh 11 skills for the future, and this was one of them compass versus maps.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_05: Uh going back to the previous conversation where you asked me the mindset change between uh a person who develops for somebody else and another who develops for the long game, the product mindset.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, here is another technology for the sake of technology.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_05: I want to do something using Kotlin.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_05: Can I take this project?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_05: Versus, I have Kotlin, I have Java, I have Swift, I have Objective C, I have React Native.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_05: What does the customer need?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_05: What will sustain in the long run?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_05: Is it a fad?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_05: Is it a trend, or is it here to stay?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_05: Asking those questions and doing the horses for courses matching, not because you need something shiny on your resume, but because you want your customer to shine.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_05: So that mindset you need to imbibe if you are uh really interested in being a product person rather than a project person.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_05: So coming back to Compass and Maps, uh, even at Zoho schools, when they ask us, hey, uh, how are you going to complete all this?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_05: Um, or uh, you are saying you will squeeze four years of college education into two years at Zoho schools.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_05: How is it possible?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_05: We tell them we teach you only what is contextual, we teach you only what is relevant, and we immerse you in an environment.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_05: So contextual, relevant, immersive.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_05: And we tell them the most important thing you're going to learn here is only one thing: how to learn on the go.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_05: Right every day we have uh an internal uh channel, a chat channel, where we just post hash T I L.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_05: Today I learned.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_05: I was amazed.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_05: We were having a conversation this morning, uh, just before this call started, and I told you I have changed my background from plain green to uh uh shimmering blue.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_05: And uh I saw how you noted it down.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_05: You wanted to know the software's name, and you said, This is a learning for me today.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, this is the only thing that differentiates the long-term eventual succeeder and the also RAM today in today's world.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_05: So if you can learn something every day, sometimes it could even be what I learned yesterday was wrong.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_05: Correct.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_05: It could even be that, but if you can T I L hash T I L your life, you don't need a map, you just need where am I?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_05: Where am I going?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_05: And the other important benefit that uh a compass gives you is it points to the true north.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_05: That long-term goal, I think it comes from Stephen Covey also.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_05: Correct.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_05: What is your long-term goal?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_05: What is your eventual life arc going to be?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_05: What is the legacy you're going to leave behind?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_05: What will you want people to take your name for long after you are gone corporeally?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_05: So that true North, it'll keep reminding you, even during times of stress and strain, when everything seems dark, and in fact, stars shine brightest when things are dark.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_05: So that's that beautiful thing, that beacon there that draws you to it, that really helps.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I want to move uh this conversation to a next level, uh Raj where uh I get prepared for a job, I then start working.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: And uh my experience has been that uh you know, when I started working, my company identified about 120 high potentials.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: And uh now after 30 years, I search where are those 120 high potentials, just a handful are there, which means that many of them lost their way in between the 30 years, right?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: So you talk about the importance of lifelong learning, right?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, where the organization is probably training you, but what is your North Pole?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, how do you really go there?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, how do I keep myself ready for a lifelong learning?
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, what should I be doing?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because the organization will teach you what its priorities are, right?
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: But you got to be ready saying that, hey, you know, I want to be the best in what I do.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'll figure out my way, and therefore, the importance of lifelong learning and disrupting yourself every few years, okay, is very important.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you how do you think this lifelong learning is something that you need to do, you need to do now that you have disrupted the early uh you know uh uh school going and college education?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: How would you want to disrupt if you had a uh you know, say a sheet of paper, uh a working life?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: How would you uh disrupt a working professional's life to be better than what he or she did yesterday, uh five years back or a decade?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_05: Right, got it.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_05: So let's uh uh keep coming back to that phrase lifelong learning.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_05: I'll use that as my um magnet today in the next five minutes.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_05: Um First up, you need to be okay with being called the total fool.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_05: It could start as simple as asking questions.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_05: Many of us don't ask questions simply because don't you know even this is the retort you're afraid of.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_05: But uh I think uh somebody famous once said uh he who asks the question uh is probably fool for five minutes, but he who never asks the question is a fool for a lifetime.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_05: So be okay with being declared the thorough total fool.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_05: If you can put yourself in a that in that kind of an environment, you are aware, you are you are infinitely more aware, you are taking everything in, you're absorbing, and you are ready to take risks because risk taking is one of the most important getting out of the comfort zone, they say, getting into the learning zone, they say, getting into flow, they say.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_05: All these happen only when you're ready to go out on a limb.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_05: I haven't done this before.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_05: Can I try it?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_05: I'll be called a fool, but that's okay.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_05: I will tell everybody I'm a fool even before I try it.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_05: So that's the advice most speakers get to.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_05: If you're going to slip and fall on a banana peel, just remember one important lesson: laugh before everybody else's laughs.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_05: If you can do that, the others won't laugh because the joke is no longer there.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_05: The joke has been defused.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_05: So that's uh one important learning.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_05: Be ready to be that learner, wear the joker's hat.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_05: They say wear the learner's hat.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_05: The learner's hat is like that full cap.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_05: It's a full scap, and uh you have to be the learner.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_05: The the second thing is uh there is no learning and uh doing as separate entities.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_05: I will never recommend if somebody wants to learn Java, I'll not say learn Java in 21 days by the book or subscribe to this uh course or take this um uh one-on-one mentoring session.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_05: No, I will ask them the question why they want to learn Java.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_05: They may someday say, Um, I want to build an app.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_05: I'll ask them why do you want to build an app?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_05: They will they will probably say, I want to keep track of uh expense.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_05: And drilling it down further and further like that brings them to that core why.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_05: Start with why Simon Sinek, it brings the core why.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_05: When you get that core why, that is what you need to position up front as your true north, and then whatever it takes, probably it is not even Java you need to learn, you need to learn Kotlin, perhaps, or you it's not enough if you learn Java, you need to learn design, perhaps, or probably there is an app that does the same thing already.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_05: Correct.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_05: This kind of drilling down deeper and deeper, many people don't do.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_05: They take a course in an in an aseptic environment thinking that'll help them.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_05: No, you have to start with why you will have to attach it with an ongoing physical, tangible activity.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_05: That brings me to the third thing, which is this activity has to be aligned with the organization's goals.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_05: So you can't say I want to build an app when the company is doing a banking software for somebody else.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_05: So you have to work with the teammates, with your manager, with the CEO if you want, and ensure there is at least partial alignment between what the company wants to do to its customers, wants you to do, and you want to do.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_05: It's a beautiful dynamic tension there.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_05: The customer is pulling the company in one way, the company is pulling the employee in one way, the employee is pushing and pulling in their own way.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_05: This dynamic equilibrium will give out.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes the employee will sacrifice his or her own goals and join the flow, go with the flow of the company.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes the employee could be so strong, which is what happened with Apple.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_05: The Steve Jobs and Johnny Ive combo were so strong, they pulled Apple from near bankruptcy and created the new Apple for all of us.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_05: And it could even be that the company is an immovable object and the employee is an unstoppable force, and the employee spins out and starts their own startup.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_05: It could happen, but the most important ingredient there is dynamic tension.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_05: Push, pull.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_05: You cannot just be deadweight being pushed around and uh things flow because when you're a deadweight, you are causing trouble to the organization itself.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_05: You're not causing trouble just for you.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_05: So these are my thoughts when you talk about lifelong learning.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_05: Be ready to be the fool.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_05: Always uh remember to dig deeper and deeper to find the why, and try dynamic tension between the company's why and your why.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: The company's why and your why is a beautiful summary of lifelong learning.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that's a very nice quote I would pick up.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, which brings me to this whole lifelong learning.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's one more thing that I keep uh, you know, probably uh thinking and reflecting is everybody says I want a job, and I always keep saying that you will get dime a dozen jobs if you know what your career is.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, therefore, how do you see this difference between a career and a job?
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because too many people are searching for jobs and they just don't search for a career, right?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, if we teach them to search a career, they may get dime a dozen jobs, right?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that's when this whole problem that you also talk about, this whole unemployability problem goes away when you teach people about careers and not jobs.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree with me on that?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I agree that I agree there.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_05: So uh yeah, job is what you do to fill your day nine to five.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, career is what you do, what you take up, perhaps to fill your mouth, fill your bank account, fill your family's uh mouths.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_05: I would uh introduce a new word, a calling that's even higher.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_05: What's my calling?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_05: What's that unique thing that only I am capable of gifting to this world?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_05: Again, Steve Jobs Channer uh he met uh the CEO of um Pepsi at that time, Scully, John Scully, and he said uh he was trying to invite John Scully to join Apple as CEO.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_05: Correct.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_05: Scully was refusing because Pepsi was so big.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_05: Apple was a startup from Silicon Valley run by some hippies.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_05: And uh Steve Jobs, before leaving, he says, Do you want to sell sugared water for the rest of your life?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_05: Or do you want to join us and make a dent in the universe?
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_05: This this ability to make a dent in the universe, selling sugared water, everybody can do.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_05: You can probably do incrementally better, but will it will it give you that icky guy?
• 51:50
  unknown: Right?
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_05: Versus that calling, which is only you can do it, only you have that unique set of experiences, upbringing, exposure, skills, attitude, that combo, that perfect combo you have.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_05: The only missing piece is being part of this team or this company or this initiative.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_05: If these can come together, it's like critical mass explosion, nuclear explosion.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_05: So I think never settle.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_05: You should continue to look until that calling comes up.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_05: My CEO has an interesting uh intranet post.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's 15 years old now, but I keep going back to it.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_05: It's such a beautifully written post where somebody had asked him, How do you work so hard and all that?
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_05: And uh my CEO had responded saying, Work?
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_05: What is work?
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_05: He launches into a discussion, an opinion piece on how to define work.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_05: Is it when you spill sweat?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_05: Is it when you feel I would rather be doing that, but I am stuck here?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_05: Is it what you do five days a week so that you can do something else two days a week?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_05: What is work?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_05: And the arbit abdon, the German word, and uh he brings it down to if you cannot differentiate between a Sunday afternoon when the idea strikes you and you start coding, and uh Thursday morning when you are at work, but you really cannot move forward because the idea hasn't struck you, the muse hasn't sat on your shoulder.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_05: This is this is mind work, and you cannot really differentiate it anymore in this modern environment as oh, you are at office, you have to do office work, you're at home, and so on.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_05: So, and the the blurring of the difference between work and life.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_05: Some people may not like it, some people may say uh it it's it's upsetting the work life balance and so on.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_05: Again, it is dynamic equilibrium.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_05: It is not this much time, this much time.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_05: It is what kind of quality you bring to it, it's what kind of inner peace you derive from it, it is how much you are able to magnify your contribution to the people around you, the society around you.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_05: So, unga vela ungala benefit pandadana if your work is going to benefit you for magnifying your impact on society, how dare you call it work anymore?
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_05: So, uh, this this is pretty uh uh pretty fuzzy, yeah, I would say.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_05: And so continue to be on the quest for what your true calling is.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_05: 80,000 hours, it seems.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_05: 80,000 hours.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_05: Anybody, when they live an adult life, proper adult life, if they work, you have 80,000 hours.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_05: Think about it.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_05: That's all eighty thousand hours other than one hour we have been talking.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_05: So, in these eighty thousand hours, if you want to have an impact, an outsized impact, you have to look for that right magnifying glass.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_05: And the magnifying glass is made of three, four ingredients: the people who you report to, the customers you uh work for, the employees you work with, these people.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_05: If you can get that right mix, stop till then, never settle.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, which brings me to the last couple of questions, Raj.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the first question is really uh a lot of people say, you know, I'm a manager and I have so many people reporting to me, right?
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I always keep saying that uh leaders are followed, leaders uh you know don't direct.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: And for me to be a leader, what are the skills that are needed so that you get people to follow you, managers manage people, leaders get people to follow.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you really build it in a knowledge economy like ours where uh it's not about hundred people who report and most of them don't have respect for you?
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, versus you even have 10 people but they die by what you say, right?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: And which means that you need to have a skill set that they look up to and you make them great because you empower them.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are the skills that then if I'm going to be a leader for tomorrow, what should I be leaving behind and what should I be taking forward?
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_05: So um let me clarify up, friend, that I don't consider myself a great leader.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_05: So I will tell you stuff that I look up to, I hope to imbibe in myself someday.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_05: These are things.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_05: So um this whole myth of being unbiased, being equally um concerned and responsible for everyone.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_05: I think we should all stop believing in that myth.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_05: It is a pretty biased and polarized world out there, and you are doing it right when you're doing it wrong.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_05: You need to be biased, you need to be um overdoing something, underdoing something, you need to spend more time with some people, less time with others.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_05: It has to you you cannot look for equilibrium there.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_05: Some people need more time, you need to work with them, some people need to be left alone, you can't keep poking your nose into them, and so on.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_05: So the first thing is that stop trying to be fair.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_05: You have no idea what is fairness, first of all.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_05: Only when you have that, you can even try.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_05: So stop doing that.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_05: The second, I would say, is transparency, openness, transparency, candid, instant feedback.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_05: You cannot postpone giving feedback.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_05: Of course, feedback has to be in private, appreciation can be in public, but criticism has to be in private, but never postpone.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_05: It has to be instantaneous, it has to be momentary.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_05: You cannot wait till appraisal time.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_05: That's a very important lesson.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_05: The third, once upon a time, it used to be that leaders need to demonstrate, leaders need to show.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_05: I am reading the Mahabharata with my mom, and I am amazed at how the three greatest warriors to be defeated were the great-grandfathers of the Kaurawa clan.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_05: There is Bhishma, there is Kripa, and there is Drona.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_05: All are generations older people than Arjuna.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_05: Arjuna is struggling against them.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_05: But those days are gone.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_05: Today, kids that come from colleges and from Zoho schools, they run circles around us, they know so much more.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_05: So there is this interesting dichotomy between knowing and caring, I would say, or knowledge and wisdom, I would say.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_05: You come with knowledge, but there is a certain wisdom that I have created.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_05: It's like generative AI.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_05: My model has been trained by life.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_05: I have been around.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_05: So please use my wisdom, but use your knowledge and create magic.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_05: So the the leader has to demonstrate that he has, she has the heart in the right place.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_05: My intentions are clean.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_05: I want to be of help, but one of the most important helps I can do, I have learned, is step out of the goddamn way.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_05: When you are trying to run full steam, I want to step out of the way and provide you that.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_05: Talking about the way, another very important contribution a leader can make is be Vignavinayak, the remover of obstacles.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_05: Because you, because of your position in the organization, you're able to clear the way in front.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_05: You're able to, I don't know, uh, you must have been in some Tiruvida, at least, uh Kovil Temple uh Rup festival, where there'll be these people who will have long sticks who will move the wires, the power lines, the telephone lines, be that.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you are insignificant, nobody will photograph you, you will look tired, ugly, it's all the God that matters, but you're doing crucial contribution for the inexorable progress of the company.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_05: So if you can if you can uh depersonalize, lose your ego, and merge, right?
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_05: I I remember a beautiful movie called uh um uh forget the Sangarsh or something.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's a it's a Hindi movie, it's Buddhist uh story, and uh there is a question in the first scene of the movie How do you ensure a water droplet doesn't dry out?
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_05: Is the question.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_05: And then the end of the movie, the hero walks from the other from the in the other direction, and so the placard that was having the question now has the answer.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_05: The question was, how do you ensure a water droplet doesn't dry out?
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_05: And the answer is immerse it in the ocean.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_05: When it immerses in the ocean, it is given assurance that it will never dry, but it loses its identity.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_05: It can't call itself a water droplet anymore.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_05: I don't have number 2,376,412 as my ID, water droplet ID.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_05: So when you lose your ego, you gain eternity.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_05: That was the lesson I learned from that movie.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_05: So these are things that I try to imbibe in my day-to-day life.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_05: Be uh go out of the way and uh don't try being impartial, um remove obstacles and be ready to merge with the uh the universal eternity soul of the company.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_05: That's what I'm beautiful.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: So my last uh real question is uh in this day of uh you know uh uh time, I would call it of instant gratification.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: I do something, I want immediate appreciation, I want immediate promotion, I want immediate increment.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how do you really build resilience, tenacity, and the fact that I need to you know be at it, like what you said about Radha, right?
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: 19 years, you know, there are there are days when probably you know things are not looking good, there are days when things are looking good, the ability to see the end uh rather than keep seeing the here and now.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how do I build this tenacity and uh you know resilience, which is very important because everyday people believe that, oh, I want to do it uh you know, otherwise, you know, let me look at something else.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_00: So is that important, and how do you build it?
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_05: So these are heavy philosophical questions, and I don't know if I'm even doing justice to these, but I'll tell you what I have learned observing Sridhar Vembu, observing this company, uh Zoho Corporation evolve over time.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_05: Uh how do you build tenacity?
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_05: How do you build that uh playing the long game, the marathon sustenance effort?
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_05: Uh one lesson I have learned is leaving money on the table.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_05: Instant gratification is whatever comes, take it and demand the next money come for all immediately.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_05: Versus, even if there is money on the table, even if there is an opportunity to milk the customer dry, give them the opportunity to say, wait, I'll I would like to pay later.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_05: I would not like to subscribe for this.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_05: We have a product called Zoho Concierge, it's a desk.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_05: And that desk is manned by a team of people whose important job is to analyze your business.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_05: Wait for it, is to analyze your business and recommend only those products from Zoho that will really make sense to you and not the whole bouquet of products you will be made to buy if you go the proper way.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_05: So it is almost like it is countermarketing.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_05: We are saying we will come to your side of the desk.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_05: It won't be a sales call.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_05: We will understand your business.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_05: Tell us everything about you, and we will show you how to save money from Zoho.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_05: We I I love that strategy.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_05: So that is the same thing that we have continued even inside our team at Zoho schools.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_05: There'll be some questions like, uh, why are we not having this?
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_05: We can easily have this.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_05: Why is it not being declared as a day off?
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_05: Or why are we not celebrating and so on?
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_05: The the if you dig deeper, you will notice that there is this philosophical DNA strand which says uh it is okay to once in a while miss something.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_05: Right?
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_05: There is this time-driven versus event-driven.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_05: Time-driven is it's one o'clock, uh, time for lunch.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_05: Event driven is I'm hungry, it's probably 11 o'clock.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_05: I am hungry, it's probably two o'clock, but only when I'm hungry, I go for lunch.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_05: So if you can move from being a slave to the clock to being an attentive listener to events, that is an important mind shift from being time driven to being event driven.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_05: And that helps you build sustainable models.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Tandraj.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be asking you a last set of five rapid fire questions.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it can be short uh terse answers, or even it can be a long The first one is what does success mean to you?
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_05: Success is uh and I have an internal model of myself, and uh have I done all that I could have done, that internal checkup that is success, it is not external validation.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_00: What would be your advice to an 18-year-old in a university today?
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_05: Uh do something, whether you continue in the university or not, is not for me to tell you, but do not sit back and wait for that knowledge to reach you.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_05: You have to lean forward and do something, build something, break something, hack something, create something.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what's you would have got a lot of advice, but but what's one piece of advice that stayed with you and you continue to use it in your everyday work today?
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_05: It was my dad.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_05: Uh he printed it on a piece of paper and uh he slipped it under my glass on top of the table, and it said, This too shall pass.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_05: What next?
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_05: Whatever it be.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_05: It could be great moments, it could be down in the dumps moments, but fantastic.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very deep and brilliant.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you were to invite a couple of people for a dream dinner, it could be two or three people.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they can be living or dead.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: Who would it be?
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: Who would it be and why?
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_05: I recently watched a video and I'm influenced by that deeply, where adults are interviewed.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_05: Australia, America, Colombia, France, couples are interviewed, and they're asked this question, who would you want?
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_05: And each of them is saying Sam Altman, Bill Gates, APJ Kalam, Abraham Lincoln, and so on.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_05: And the camera shifts and they show these adults' children.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_05: They are being asked the same question: Who would you want for dinner?
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_05: And the answer from these children are mom and dad, family.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_05: Should it have to be a celebrity?
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_05: Can we have a grandpa-grandma dinner?
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_05: And so on.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_05: So I would like to be influenced heavily by that video, and I would like to say family, mom, dad, wife, son, close relatives with uh no real agenda.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_05: Chit chat.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_05: I'm missing it.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, what's one thing that you believe in that others really don't agree with you?
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I believe that um hard work will always triumph over talent.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_05: I believe.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_05: I believe in atomic habits, I believe that even if I am such a miserable screwball in anything I am attempting, day after day after day, month after month, year after year, I shall overcome.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_05: I am a strong believer in that.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_05: Not many people I know seem to believe in that.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: On that note, thanks Raj.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was a lovely conversation, really enjoyed, and I hope you two had a fun time talking to me.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks a lot and lovely talking to you.
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks a lot.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_05: Thanks a lot.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_05: Bye-bye.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: For selected links and detailed show notes, visit www.contraminds.com.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_00: Follow Contraminds on social media and let us know who you would like to see next on the podcast.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you are listening to Contraminds on Apple Podcasts, do share your comments and give us a rating.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: We are keen to know what you're thinking.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_00: Contraminds is also on YouTube.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you are listening to the podcast on YouTube, hit the subscribe button and stay up to date on all our releases.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening and stay safe.