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Drive It Like You Mean It: Lessons from the Commercial and Recreational 4WD Worlds · The Overland Journal Podcast

0:06
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I'm your
0:09
Speaker 1: host Matthew Scott and I'm here with my good buddy,
0:12
Speaker 1: Scott Brady, that's.
0:13
Speaker 2: Right, and our other good buddy, Chris Walker. Hey, cheps,
0:16
Speaker 2: Hey guys.
0:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got a little British accents going on.
0:20
Speaker 2: Chris.
0:20
Speaker 3: The podcast automatically moved up the rankings just by having it's.
0:26
Speaker 1: Consider Chris is an interesting guy. He is one of
0:31
Speaker 1: the most experienced for wheel drive trainers professional for wheal
0:34
Speaker 1: drive trainers in my opinion, on the planet. He also
0:38
Speaker 1: runs a company called Tirian Safety and Tyrian is Canada's
0:42
Speaker 1: largest commercial provider of off road driver training. And the
0:46
Speaker 1: thing that's crazy about Canada's logging. You're talking oil exploration.
0:50
Speaker 1: You're talking places where there are no roads. Their roads
0:54
Speaker 1: are crazy. It's snow covered. It is an incredibly challenging environment.
1:00
Speaker 1: You have a background as a land river driver trainer,
1:03
Speaker 1: You've traveled extensively.
1:05
Speaker 2: We're so glad to have you on my pleasure. Yeah.
1:07
Speaker 1: So what we're going to be talking about today is
1:10
Speaker 1: the differences between commercial for wal drive training and recreational
1:15
Speaker 1: fal drive training. Because there are some differences, Yeah, a
1:17
Speaker 1: little bit yeah, so.
1:22
Speaker 2: Who are you? That's who is this masked man?
1:27
Speaker 4: That is a real dollar question. What can I tell you?
1:30
Speaker 4: I grew up in the UK emigrated to Canada twenty
1:35
Speaker 4: five years ago, but I had an interesting I still
1:39
Speaker 4: do an interesting career from world go. The UK is
1:44
Speaker 4: very much based around adventurous activity through schooling, through the workplace,
1:50
Speaker 4: and I in at an early age, was exposed to mountaineering, kayaking, canoeing,
1:55
Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff through the family and through
1:57
Speaker 4: holidays and recreation. I realized that was something I wanted
2:01
Speaker 4: to follow as a career, so I chose my schooling
2:05
Speaker 4: to work with that. So essentially I took a degree
2:09
Speaker 4: in performance coaching sport science with the concept that I
2:14
Speaker 4: wanted to leave my university and move into professional training
2:18
Speaker 4: in mountaineering, kayaking, canoeing, climbing and all those kind of things,
2:22
Speaker 4: which I did for a long time. Through those processes,
2:25
Speaker 4: I ended up working on the ocean as a trainer
2:27
Speaker 4: for a long time. Work was swift Forward Rescue, did
2:30
Speaker 4: lots of different outdoor style things, traveled the world, lived
2:34
Speaker 4: in Iceland for a couple of years, lived in Normally
2:35
Speaker 4: for a couple of years, working in an adventurous education, and
2:39
Speaker 4: then I saw that I wanted something different, and Canada
2:42
Speaker 4: resonated with me through family reasons, ended up moving here.
2:47
Speaker 4: And I saw fairly on early on that there was
2:50
Speaker 4: a niche that wasn't being serviced in terms of driver
2:55
Speaker 4: operator education. So the UK is really heavily based in
2:58
Speaker 4: occupational health and safety. Everything that we do in the workplace,
3:03
Speaker 4: from driving a vehicle to attractor to whatever specialist piece
3:06
Speaker 4: of equipment. The regulations are really tight there. So that
3:09
Speaker 4: was something that I saw wasn't being exploited in Canada
3:14
Speaker 4: and North America, and I knew it's coming. Typically what
3:16
Speaker 4: I see happens is because Canada's a Commonwealth country with
3:20
Speaker 4: several years behind the UK in legislation, and we see
3:24
Speaker 4: trends in the UK through various sectors of workplace safety, education, health,
3:31
Speaker 4: all those kind of things. So I knew that Canada
3:34
Speaker 4: was going to start looking at these activities that weren't
3:38
Speaker 4: in serviced in terms of safety training. And I had
3:41
Speaker 4: some experience with land rover experience, people we know together
3:45
Speaker 4: all too well. Yeah, sure, super cool people, and they
3:48
Speaker 4: gave me a really good grounding in car education, which
3:52
Speaker 4: the ethos that I still hold when I saw this
3:55
Speaker 4: niche and I created the company with the vision to
3:58
Speaker 4: service industry and professional training in light and medium heavy
4:02
Speaker 4: duty trucks, snowballs, snowcats, ATVs, anything off highway based, and
4:07
Speaker 4: that's where it's come.
4:08
Speaker 1: It's funny how so much of the best formal drive
4:11
Speaker 1: training always comes back to land Rover. Yeah, and I
4:15
Speaker 1: think it's deserving. I think that they had an internal
4:18
Speaker 1: culture that somehow defied the executive's efforts to destroy it.
4:24
Speaker 3: I think it was because of the quality of the
4:26
Speaker 3: the quality.
4:26
Speaker 2: Of the people destroyed.
4:28
Speaker 1: All of these people that came out of land Rover,
4:30
Speaker 1: out of not only just Camel Trophy Trek, but just
4:34
Speaker 1: the events that they were doing. Gee, it seems like
4:36
Speaker 1: there's a lot of them that we talked.
4:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, and even the current land Rover Experience centers are
4:40
Speaker 3: still providing some of the best for drive training that's available.
4:44
Speaker 4: Yeah, agreed. Yeah, the history of land Rovers and off
4:47
Speaker 4: road vehicle the same with Jeep and toyotas, so many
4:50
Speaker 4: iconic vehicles from back in the day. But Landrover really
4:53
Speaker 4: sent it around good driver education from a very early day.
4:59
Speaker 4: I remember name rightly Roger Craythorn and people like that,
5:02
Speaker 4: and as stayed that the brand may have changed in
5:05
Speaker 4: terms of kind of its representation to the public, but
5:08
Speaker 4: the core ethoss of driver training still is very much
5:11
Speaker 4: front and foremost.
5:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, So with the commercial side, one of the things
5:15
Speaker 1: we're really focusing on to the differences between that and
5:18
Speaker 1: the recreational side. Obviously, when somebody's driving a four thousand
5:22
Speaker 1: pounds jeep on thirty seven's it's drastically different than somebody
5:26
Speaker 1: driving a commercial truck a SnowCat. What are like the
5:29
Speaker 1: types of vehicles I guess that you're training on to
5:32
Speaker 1: help paint a picture for them.
5:34
Speaker 4: Listener, It's really varied, but anything that you see, I
5:38
Speaker 4: think a classic example that's relatable here in the USA
5:41
Speaker 4: is the power companies, the people that are driving the
5:45
Speaker 4: gravel roads or the resource roads alongside the highway, putting
5:48
Speaker 4: up the power poles and servicing that kind of stuff.
5:50
Speaker 4: So there's anything typically from say F one fifty up
5:54
Speaker 4: to F five fifty. In kind of the realm that
5:56
Speaker 4: we work in, fairly stock vehicles because they're fleetvehicles. They
6:00
Speaker 4: don't want to spend tons of money on them unless
6:02
Speaker 4: they're putting on trays on the back of equipment and
6:05
Speaker 4: supplies through to the gtvs, ATVs and snowball. So really
6:09
Speaker 4: it's your standard ram, pickup truck for pickup truck, Dodge, pickup,
6:14
Speaker 4: whatever you might see out there.
6:15
Speaker 1: So the vehicles are that you're training with are similar, right,
6:19
Speaker 1: maybe not jeeps, but one fifteen the jeep, they're drastically
6:23
Speaker 1: different capability but similar in size, I guess these days.
6:26
Speaker 1: So like, what are your core principles for like your
6:30
Speaker 1: commercial training. What is the thing that really like separates
6:34
Speaker 1: in your opinion, commercial training from the recreational training.
6:39
Speaker 4: Risk assessment and risk reduction is the single biggest kind
6:43
Speaker 4: of difference that we see. I think you get the
6:46
Speaker 4: really good recreational trainers out there who look at that
6:49
Speaker 4: as well, But I don't think the focus is anywhere
6:52
Speaker 4: near the same when we teach someone. So if we
6:55
Speaker 4: have a group of people coming from say oil and gas,
6:58
Speaker 4: and we are working with them on a resource road
7:01
Speaker 4: driver program that is all centered around the psychology, are
7:05
Speaker 4: driving the responsibilities, understanding the vehicle, seating positions, emergency maneuvers,
7:11
Speaker 4: how to operate that vehicle in the workplace to get
7:16
Speaker 4: from the work site to the work site or wherever
7:19
Speaker 4: they need to operate in that vehicle. Typically, in most
7:22
Speaker 4: occupational health and safety reporting, we see the driving activity
7:28
Speaker 4: in those kind of work environments is the highest risk.
7:32
Speaker 4: Now it may seem odd that statement, but the highest
7:35
Speaker 4: risk in terms of the most frequency of incidents. Sure,
7:38
Speaker 4: if you're there drilling or blasting, they could potentially create
7:42
Speaker 4: a bigger injury or issue, but more accidents happen when
7:46
Speaker 4: people drive to them from the workplace. So we're just
7:48
Speaker 4: trying to equip people with the skills to really take
7:53
Speaker 4: focus on that activity. Whereas I think recreation we look
7:58
Speaker 4: at more of how can we get at place with
8:00
Speaker 4: all of our stuff safely through whatever, boarders, through whatever,
8:03
Speaker 4: train with really cool fun enjoyment. And I think that's
8:08
Speaker 4: the biggest single delineator between the two.
8:12
Speaker 3: And is there also a kind of a tenor of
8:15
Speaker 3: preserving the vehicle. I know that when people get remote
8:19
Speaker 3: like that, especially for the workplace, the vehicle is oftentimes
8:23
Speaker 3: how they get back. Do you find that some of
8:26
Speaker 3: the curriculum really focuses on, like mechanical sympathy preserving the
8:31
Speaker 3: asset one.
8:33
Speaker 4: It's interesting because I think in the recreational world, especially
8:37
Speaker 4: the overland world where people are trying to travel. I
8:39
Speaker 4: think there's a really good emphasis of understanding of I
8:42
Speaker 4: must preserve my nice Toyota or ram or whatever it
8:45
Speaker 4: is to go to these cool places. The workplace, we're
8:48
Speaker 4: doing the same and it's a really big focus, but
8:51
Speaker 4: there's definitely less responsibility from some of the workers into
8:56
Speaker 4: that aspect of kind of their rights. Not their car.
8:59
Speaker 4: It's a fleet with all the tech boxes, yeah, exactly,
9:03
Speaker 4: but it's absolutely critical when we work on those big
9:06
Speaker 4: infrastructure sites, so in a deep coal mine or on
9:09
Speaker 4: a pipeline that's been constructed on a power line. Not
9:12
Speaker 4: only is it the ethic of looking after the vehicle
9:16
Speaker 4: safety yourself, it's the infrastructure around that's actually the bigger
9:20
Speaker 4: critical asset. So people driving their vehicles need to know
9:24
Speaker 4: depending on the site, because there's lots of different regulations
9:27
Speaker 4: and processes of how to maneuver a vehicle in these
9:30
Speaker 4: sites because the risk is huge. It's into billions of
9:33
Speaker 4: dollars by one driving extent.
9:35
Speaker 3: Let's give a couple examples to the listener of some
9:39
Speaker 3: techniques that you teach to help reduce risk or to
9:43
Speaker 3: improve mechanical sympathy.
9:45
Speaker 4: That's a great question. Understanding your vehicle on understanding the
9:48
Speaker 4: terrain that you're driving in. These vehicles aren't modified, they
9:52
Speaker 4: probably have a better set of tires on them for
9:54
Speaker 4: the terrain they're driving on. Highly unlikely suspension has been touched.
9:58
Speaker 4: So it's really giving the user or every single driver there,
10:03
Speaker 4: the understanding of how to drive that vehicle correctly, Understanding
10:07
Speaker 4: the difference between two wheel drive, four wheel drive, high
10:10
Speaker 4: low range, understanding traction, controlling all those pieces so that
10:15
Speaker 4: they can drive that vehicle without tearing up the terrain.
10:19
Speaker 4: We're not about spinning tires. It's not about going fast.
10:21
Speaker 4: It's quite a different style of driving. We're trying to
10:24
Speaker 4: use that vehicle and put it into a place where
10:26
Speaker 4: it gets the most amount of traction, the most amount
10:29
Speaker 4: of control, with the least amount of stress, and the
10:32
Speaker 4: least amount of impact of people that are surrounding us.
10:36
Speaker 4: Drive a technique, really, it's understanding the vehicle's the biggest key.
10:39
Speaker 3: When I was at the Perelli event with you, you
10:42
Speaker 3: did a really nice job of breaking down the difference
10:45
Speaker 3: between full time for will drive, all will drive, part time.
10:49
Speaker 2: For will drive.
10:50
Speaker 3: I thought that was I thought that was really helpful
10:53
Speaker 3: and what is a true four will drive. And I
10:55
Speaker 3: think a lot of people don't realize that like a
10:57
Speaker 3: land cruiser with an open center differential or something thing
11:00
Speaker 3: with an open center differential in the transfer case can
11:04
Speaker 3: be driven like an all wheel drive, but it's actually
11:07
Speaker 3: a four wheel drive. Because so maybe explain those differences.
11:10
Speaker 3: I think the audience would probably appreciate that. I'd like
11:13
Speaker 3: to listening to you talk about that.
11:15
Speaker 4: So the several different categories of vehicle, let's talk about
11:19
Speaker 4: the off road vehicles. So we have a part time
11:23
Speaker 4: four wheel drive vehicle, a full time four wheel drive vehicle,
11:26
Speaker 4: and an all wheel drive vehicle. Part time. Most of
11:30
Speaker 4: the time when it's driving on the pavement, it's in
11:31
Speaker 4: two wheel drive. We have the ability to put it
11:35
Speaker 4: into four wheel drive high range when traction gets reduced,
11:39
Speaker 4: so you're moving onto a gravel road, whereas a little
11:41
Speaker 4: wet in the winter and snowing gives you more control,
11:44
Speaker 4: more tires, turning or being driven by the transmission potentially
11:48
Speaker 4: gives more traction. The other piece with that, it has
11:51
Speaker 4: that high and low range set of gears. High range
11:55
Speaker 4: is great for driving fast on the road in whatever
11:58
Speaker 4: traction we're in, not great at climbing steep hills, complex terrain,
12:03
Speaker 4: not great at descending complex trains, and we just moved
12:06
Speaker 4: too fast. And then the low range configuration, that vehicle
12:10
Speaker 4: doesn't move anywhere near as quick, but it gives you
12:12
Speaker 4: more control by having more talk. So having the understanding
12:15
Speaker 4: between that is really good. And then if we look
12:17
Speaker 4: at something like a modern land drover permanent four wheel
12:21
Speaker 4: drive high and low range, we have some really great
12:27
Speaker 4: technology out there in some of these modern vehicles where
12:29
Speaker 4: we don't need to wheel drive in a vehicle because
12:32
Speaker 4: we want a vehicle that has drive to all those
12:35
Speaker 4: four towers and all the same time. And then we
12:37
Speaker 4: have ohel drive classic examples, something like a SUBERU where
12:40
Speaker 4: it doesn't have a high and low range that of gears.
12:43
Speaker 4: So a suber or an OIEL drive vehicle is the
12:45
Speaker 4: same as a permanent four wheel drive vehicle, but just
12:48
Speaker 4: without without the high and low range that of gears.
12:51
Speaker 2: I didn't actually know the difference.
12:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so I thought that was really helpful when
12:55
Speaker 3: you shared that at the Pirelli event.
12:56
Speaker 2: I think that was really slightful. So the Grenadier would
12:59
Speaker 2: be permanent for.
12:59
Speaker 4: Work correct, interesting, but it's gone old school where it
13:04
Speaker 4: has that center locking differentially correct, so it's permanent four
13:07
Speaker 4: wheel drive. And the reason we have a center locking
13:09
Speaker 4: differential that we can configure is as soon as you
13:13
Speaker 4: go into four wheel drive or have permanent four wheel drive,
13:16
Speaker 4: those tires are trying to turn at a very similar
13:19
Speaker 4: speed between the front of the vehicle and the back
13:22
Speaker 4: of the vehicle. If we have an unlocking differential locking
13:26
Speaker 4: differential in the center of the vehicle when we're on
13:29
Speaker 4: the pavement, we can unlock it so that every tire
13:32
Speaker 4: can turn at the correct speed through the three differentials
13:35
Speaker 4: and turn.
13:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it doesn't understeer the binding.
13:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, don't get understare. But in a moment you can
13:42
Speaker 4: flick it into center diff lock and they have fifty
13:46
Speaker 4: percent of the pack into the front of the vehicle
13:48
Speaker 4: and into the back of the vehicle. It's actually really
13:52
Speaker 4: it's really cool that Grundade has done that in US has.
13:55
Speaker 3: Done that, and Landovers did that forever.
13:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where it all came from. Man, Yeah, they're sure. Yeah,
14:02
Speaker 2: that was really helpful.
14:02
Speaker 3: Thanks for sharing that.
14:04
Speaker 1: So I'm going to go back to the commercial side
14:07
Speaker 1: again for a second. What's like the most technical terrain
14:11
Speaker 1: I guess that you trained for on the commercial side,
14:15
Speaker 1: Like when you compare that to we've obviously talked about
14:19
Speaker 1: the risk assessments and effectively teaching the drivers to be
14:24
Speaker 1: a little more conservative. How does the terrain that these
14:27
Speaker 1: guys are going on the job site compared to the
14:30
Speaker 1: recreational side. In my mind, like I see this crazy
14:33
Speaker 1: stuff in Canada, Like I see these logging roads and
14:35
Speaker 1: it's man, that's mental.
14:37
Speaker 4: We just have more trees. Yeah, it can be similar
14:43
Speaker 4: what I find with the industrial roads. The big challenge
14:47
Speaker 4: with those is the level of machinery that could be
14:49
Speaker 4: all righting on them. But we look at let's just
14:52
Speaker 4: take kind of dif for example, we all right all
14:54
Speaker 4: over the world with these courses, but we could have
14:57
Speaker 4: something that's a gentle wide gravel road, you call it
15:00
Speaker 4: resource road for a service road that Souper could drive
15:03
Speaker 4: up it, Honda Civic could drive up it, and that
15:06
Speaker 4: could be a workplace road. Further north or the further
15:10
Speaker 4: away from some of these connovations or towns or places,
15:14
Speaker 4: some of those distances get exponentially huge. You can be
15:17
Speaker 4: out in some of the places in the Yukon, mid
15:20
Speaker 4: British Columbia where you can be hundreds of kilometers away,
15:22
Speaker 4: it's crazy, but the road could still be the same.
15:26
Speaker 4: But then once you look at exploration and remote mining
15:30
Speaker 4: and some of these other places, or powerline transmission or
15:33
Speaker 4: building pipelines, there may well not be a road there
15:38
Speaker 4: when that project starts. So they're going from everything from
15:42
Speaker 4: blasting to dozing, degrading to building that road surface trucking
15:46
Speaker 4: materials in which means that the variety of train is
15:50
Speaker 4: anything from simple gravel, dusty, muddy, wet roads through to
15:55
Speaker 4: stuff that barely exists, especially people like tree planters, culture
15:59
Speaker 4: road building, those kind of activities. So it's really different
16:03
Speaker 4: rather than a trail that's been established in the overland
16:07
Speaker 4: or the recreation world, which they could still be really
16:10
Speaker 4: challenging with. There's an amazing amount of stuff down here
16:12
Speaker 4: in the US that's potentially is equally challenging. It's just
16:16
Speaker 4: a different style of activity on those roads.
16:20
Speaker 1: So as we kind of transition to the recreational side,
16:24
Speaker 1: because I think that that'll be of most benefit of
16:27
Speaker 1: the listenership. If you were to pick out three things
16:30
Speaker 1: that we could really take or should take from commercial
16:35
Speaker 1: training and bring into the recreational side.
16:38
Speaker 2: What do you think those would be.
16:40
Speaker 4: That's a great question. Understanding your vehicle has to be
16:45
Speaker 4: right up there. I'm a massive advocate of stock vehicles.
16:49
Speaker 4: Anything we teach commercial is typically fairly stock or stock
16:52
Speaker 4: other than maybe a tire change. In the recreational world,
16:56
Speaker 4: especially in North America, and this is no slight on
16:58
Speaker 4: the community whatsoever. It's really interesting to see these modified
17:02
Speaker 4: vehicles out there, But I wish people would spend more
17:05
Speaker 4: time in a stock vehicle learning to be a better driver,
17:10
Speaker 4: because that foundation of being a better driver gives you
17:13
Speaker 4: a better understanding your vehicle, how you might want to
17:15
Speaker 4: modify it, how to drive it in more austeer environments,
17:20
Speaker 4: and how to be more mechanically sympathetic and understand the
17:23
Speaker 4: systems in there. Modern vehicles, we have this stigma here
17:25
Speaker 4: wherever's oh gosh, I hate electronics. Fortunately, they're here to
17:28
Speaker 4: stay unless you have an old vehicle. So having an
17:31
Speaker 4: understanding of how to use that with a track, crawl control,
17:34
Speaker 4: those kind of technologies is really important. The stock piece.
17:39
Speaker 4: I think if you drive a stock vehicle, you don't
17:43
Speaker 4: have these.
17:45
Speaker 1: There's definitely a culture of improving the vehicle, modifying the vehicle.
17:51
Speaker 1: It's a very car heavy culture in the way that
17:55
Speaker 1: you would people would modify a hot ride for esthetics
17:58
Speaker 1: or what ever, even though they didn't necessarily care about
18:02
Speaker 1: it's it's cornering grip, or it's zero to sixty times
18:05
Speaker 1: or this. Obviously, these guys always wanted to go fast.
18:08
Speaker 1: That was a common theme there. There is this thing here.
18:12
Speaker 1: It's just so easy, right, Like we have relatively laxed regulations.
18:16
Speaker 1: We don't have a lot going on as far as
18:18
Speaker 1: only a couple of states have like vehicle inspections, and
18:21
Speaker 1: I don't even know if that really precludes yeah, maybe not.
18:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, anything.
18:25
Speaker 1: It's so easy to just buy the jeep Wranglers, the
18:30
Speaker 1: perfect example. That vehicle is so capable.
18:33
Speaker 3: On stock Formngler Rubicon on thirty fives and so imagine.
18:38
Speaker 1: A Tudor jeep wrangler like and you can get them
18:40
Speaker 1: on thirty five yeah, the reconnaxt yes or rubiconas I
18:44
Speaker 1: think they call it now. But then they immediately go
18:46
Speaker 1: and they put them on thirty sevens, and they lift
18:48
Speaker 1: it and they do this and that and bumpers and
18:50
Speaker 1: all this stuff, and they haven't even explored the the
18:53
Speaker 1: limits of that vehicle in its stock form No, it
18:56
Speaker 1: looks really good and we're gear heads. There's like this
18:58
Speaker 1: gearhead culture which is so cool, but you're right, like
19:02
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't really don't.
19:04
Speaker 4: Want to get into. I think it's I think the
19:06
Speaker 4: culture is really cool and if people get really buzzed
19:09
Speaker 4: about modifying their vehicle, all the kudos in the world.
19:12
Speaker 2: Do you think, though?
19:13
Speaker 1: I know a trend I see with myself is I'm
19:15
Speaker 1: modifying less and less. Vehicles are just becoming more and
19:19
Speaker 1: more capable.
19:19
Speaker 3: I think that's the key, is that factory overland vehicles
19:23
Speaker 3: right now are suitable for driving around the world. But
19:25
Speaker 3: to Chris's point, like, how many times do you want
19:28
Speaker 3: to go fly and rent a vehicle to go explore
19:31
Speaker 3: explore Africa. So if you have gotten to be very
19:35
Speaker 3: capable driving a stock vehicle, you fly to Costa Rica,
19:39
Speaker 3: you pick up that Suzuki Chimney, and you're gonna feel
19:42
Speaker 3: confident going anywhere in that. If all you've ever done
19:45
Speaker 3: is driven jeep wranglers on thirty sevens, you're going to
19:49
Speaker 3: be totally out of your element driving a stock, underpowered,
19:53
Speaker 3: small tire diameter vehicle.
19:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're used to hunting with the cost munitions. Yeah,
19:58
Speaker 2: exactly when you have to the twenty two out of the.
20:01
Speaker 4: Time, my gun jeeves. I think when we see recreational
20:07
Speaker 4: drivers out there, it's great that people get enthusiastic modified
20:10
Speaker 4: the vehicle go.
20:11
Speaker 2: Of course, there's nothing wrong with.
20:12
Speaker 4: That absolutely, but some of these modifications, tires and bigger suspension,
20:17
Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff might get you further. Sometimes
20:22
Speaker 4: I want to choose my word carefully. Some don't sound disrespectful.
20:25
Speaker 4: It can compensate for the lack of understanding or truth
20:30
Speaker 4: you can ask that's why. Yeah, and that's what worries me.
20:34
Speaker 4: Sometimes you see all these videos out there of people
20:37
Speaker 4: hopping and bouncing in the hot tub in Moab, or
20:42
Speaker 4: people spinning their tires up rock faces, where it's like
20:46
Speaker 4: a bit of understanding of what your vehicle's doing and
20:49
Speaker 4: how to gain traction in a more stock form would
20:52
Speaker 4: have really helped you in those situations.
20:54
Speaker 2: Yeah.
20:54
Speaker 4: Classic example is you watch the LRI team when needs
20:58
Speaker 4: to do the Undrover adventure in mo App Yeah, Jim
21:01
Speaker 4: Weston and the balls and gyms and thrids and all
21:04
Speaker 4: those people, Yeah, you've done it. Would climb up poison Spider,
21:09
Speaker 4: those kind of trails in a one hundred and fifty
21:12
Speaker 4: thousand dollars rang Drover on twenty twos.
21:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, literally I did. I was just gonna say you
21:16
Speaker 1: did that. One of my most memorable trips was one
21:19
Speaker 1: of those land River experiences. Jim was on it, Daphne
21:23
Speaker 1: was on it. It was it was.
21:26
Speaker 2: So much fun.
21:27
Speaker 1: And yeah, I was in a range Rover Sport like
21:29
Speaker 1: they must have just given them whatever they had in
21:31
Speaker 1: the press Leader or whatever was at the end of
21:33
Speaker 1: its life in the press Lead, because it was like
21:35
Speaker 1: a range Rover Sport on twenty two's with the arrow
21:38
Speaker 1: package and I drove it up poisoned spider. But you
21:42
Speaker 1: had to be so considerate and you had your left
21:45
Speaker 1: foot breaking and you're moving the vehicle by a millimeter
21:48
Speaker 1: like that.
21:51
Speaker 2: That is one of the things.
21:52
Speaker 4: See, it's beautiful when you do it.
21:53
Speaker 1: To give Landers some credit, like their driver inputs are
21:56
Speaker 1: so nild.
21:59
Speaker 2: Like Wranglers pretty good. Wrangler kind of.
22:01
Speaker 1: Does it through gearing, but their brakes are a little grabby,
22:03
Speaker 1: like Grenadier is actually pretty good. Yeah, a lot of
22:06
Speaker 1: vehicles just though don't have that, like that capability of finesse,
22:11
Speaker 1: like when you can be on two wheels on a
22:14
Speaker 1: land Rover in a cross actual situation and you can move.
22:18
Speaker 2: That vehicle one milimeter at a time. That is so satisfying.
22:21
Speaker 3: The old land Rovers they had a very long pedal
22:24
Speaker 3: throw in the accelerator, which is how they did that,
22:27
Speaker 3: so it could be thirty or forty percent longer throw
22:30
Speaker 3: than a land Cruiser for example, so you had that
22:33
Speaker 3: much more nuance. And then the new one when you
22:36
Speaker 3: shifted into low range, it changes the throttle mapping so
22:40
Speaker 3: that the first half or so of the throttle is marginal,
22:44
Speaker 3: like a like the cam that you put on the
22:46
Speaker 3: KTMS cam.
22:48
Speaker 1: Throttle, so that first part of the throttle was a potentiometer.
22:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, Yeah, so they actually change.
22:54
Speaker 2: That's how thoughtful land Rover is about that stuff, because
22:57
Speaker 2: you can do so much.
22:59
Speaker 1: I think Landovers is the perfect example of what you're
23:01
Speaker 1: trying to say, right, is that these vehicles don't impark it.
23:04
Speaker 2: Next to that.
23:06
Speaker 1: Aev JL through seventy, which is like my kind of
23:09
Speaker 1: gold standard for a modified for capability, Like those things
23:12
Speaker 1: are light, yeah, like dumb capable, but it's fascinating and
23:17
Speaker 1: remember you still hook for two more things.
23:19
Speaker 2: I knew it was coming, Yeah, I'm not prepared. I'm
23:21
Speaker 2: not letting you off.
23:23
Speaker 4: So the modification piece, I think one of the big
23:25
Speaker 4: ones is driver attitude. I think that's really key. How
23:29
Speaker 4: you approach you're driving, how you approach an obstacle, how
23:32
Speaker 4: you approach the terrain you're in. There's a difference between
23:38
Speaker 4: some recreational driving. We're out there to have fun and
23:40
Speaker 4: spin a few tires and make some dust, and people
23:43
Speaker 4: enjoy that. But going back to that attitude of being
23:48
Speaker 4: mindful to tread lightly, to driving a vehicle like in
23:51
Speaker 4: the workplace where it has to come back otherwise you're
23:53
Speaker 4: going to affect job security and infrastructure and all that
23:56
Speaker 4: kind of stuff I think is really important.
23:58
Speaker 1: And then yeah, it's like being consider it to your
24:00
Speaker 1: workers that have to drive that, your fellow coworkers that
24:03
Speaker 1: drive it every day. Maybe you're more cognizant of that.
24:06
Speaker 1: Whereas recreational fal drivers they get on the road too
24:11
Speaker 1: fast or this or whatever, they damage the trail, maybe
24:15
Speaker 1: they don't see it in the same way.
24:17
Speaker 2: They don't have to deal with that person tomorrow.
24:19
Speaker 4: Correct, And I don't think it's necessarily any fault of anyone.
24:22
Speaker 4: And there's a huge population out there who are the
24:25
Speaker 4: most considerate drivers out there. Is really cool to seat.
24:28
Speaker 4: But sometimes what we see through social media and YouTube
24:32
Speaker 4: is this little bit more yahoo, and people sometimes don't
24:35
Speaker 4: know any better than maybe choose that path, or then
24:38
Speaker 4: no better will they choose the path to me?
24:40
Speaker 2: And there is a time and place for that.
24:43
Speaker 4: Sort of ohva areas or what exactly.
24:46
Speaker 1: King of the hammers exists? Do it there? Just don't
24:48
Speaker 1: do it. And then the third local force service around.
24:52
Speaker 4: Or around other people are in sensitive drain or stay
24:55
Speaker 4: on their road, don't create new trails, all that kind
24:56
Speaker 4: of stuff. And then the third one driver skill modifications,
25:05
Speaker 4: driver attitude, driver skill. So many people don't necessarily understand
25:11
Speaker 4: the nuances of steering position, how to steer those front
25:16
Speaker 4: tiers to reduce the rolling resistance. The more you can
25:19
Speaker 4: make a car roll easier than whatever terrain is, the
25:24
Speaker 4: more potential chance it has of making through that terrain
25:26
Speaker 4: with less effort. You've seen an orlandro when you're driving
25:29
Speaker 4: in on adventures. Just that little tweak of a steering
25:32
Speaker 4: wheel may just get that tire into a position where
25:35
Speaker 4: it rolls easier. Placing tires on the path at least resistance,
25:39
Speaker 4: maybe using traction boards to reduce the clients you have
25:43
Speaker 4: to do all these things, so really understanding how to
25:46
Speaker 4: use that vehicle and where to place it. Really the
25:48
Speaker 4: key for a lot of this driving is the more
25:51
Speaker 4: you can keep your vehicle flat, the more you spread
25:55
Speaker 4: the weight out of those four tires into the ground
25:57
Speaker 4: to share the traction. The more you can reduce rolling resistance,
26:02
Speaker 4: the easier the vehicles going to move forwards. And then
26:04
Speaker 4: if you're climbing and descending, if you can climb or
26:07
Speaker 4: descend rather than side hill climbing or descending, the more
26:11
Speaker 4: the way to that vehicle spread out amongst those four
26:14
Speaker 4: times equally.
26:16
Speaker 3: I like that, Yeah, I like that, And what are
26:18
Speaker 3: your thoughts on left foot breaking?
26:20
Speaker 4: Love it?
26:21
Speaker 3: So let's talk to the listener about what left foot
26:24
Speaker 3: breaking is. Do you teach it in your commercial courses
26:28
Speaker 3: and of course in the recreational side. So help the
26:30
Speaker 3: listener know why they should do that and how do
26:33
Speaker 3: they learn it.
26:34
Speaker 4: It's a really interesting skill. If we take a modern
26:37
Speaker 4: vehicle with just a throttle pedal and a brake pedal,
26:40
Speaker 4: you can still apply this in a manual cart. Oh
26:42
Speaker 4: for sure, it's a little more interesting. I love driving
26:45
Speaker 4: my old ninety like that. It's fantastic. When we drive
26:48
Speaker 4: with one foot, we have a moment where we're taking
26:52
Speaker 4: our foot from the throttle to the brake or vice versa,
26:55
Speaker 4: and that moment where your foot isn't interacting with the
26:58
Speaker 4: pedal your own controlling the car by steering. So with
27:04
Speaker 4: left foot braking, we have our right foot on the
27:07
Speaker 4: throttle pedal and we have our left foot on or
27:10
Speaker 4: near the brake pedal, so that we can feather between
27:15
Speaker 4: those two inputs. So if we're driving along under a
27:18
Speaker 4: little bit of throttle and we start to say, let's
27:20
Speaker 4: climbing a rock ledge, we don't want to be bouncing
27:23
Speaker 4: that vehicle, which is not chemically sympathetic or environmentally sympathetic.
27:29
Speaker 4: We're just using throttle by the time we move to
27:31
Speaker 4: the brake. If we can control the speed of our
27:35
Speaker 4: vehicle by modulating the gas pedal and the brake pedal,
27:39
Speaker 4: we get this much smoother transition between without using those
27:44
Speaker 4: two pedals in one foot, if that makes sense. The
27:47
Speaker 4: other biggest you can do is if you're driving down
27:51
Speaker 4: a foreign service road or in the desert and you're
27:53
Speaker 4: moving at speed, you can gently graze the brake pressure
27:58
Speaker 4: brake pedal while under throw a little flattenum stiff in
28:03
Speaker 4: the car and you'll fill less of these bumps.
28:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, trail breaking is.
28:06
Speaker 4: Exactly that, but clearly you have to be in chemically sympathetic.
28:09
Speaker 4: It's only a short period because you don't know overheat
28:11
Speaker 4: breaks and where it breaks out, but there's lots of
28:13
Speaker 4: skill between that you end up with lots more control
28:17
Speaker 4: rather than the car running away before you get a
28:18
Speaker 4: break to the brake when you're descending kind of a ledge.
28:22
Speaker 2: Yeah.
28:23
Speaker 3: I also like in really technical terrain that you're putting
28:25
Speaker 3: the entire drive train under tension, especially with if you
28:29
Speaker 3: have a torque converter, you've come up closer to stall
28:32
Speaker 3: speed and that entire drive train is under tension, so
28:36
Speaker 3: you're actually less likely to spin a tire because there's
28:39
Speaker 3: some equalization of the two axle shafts and there's a
28:43
Speaker 3: lot of equalization between the front and rear prop shaft,
28:46
Speaker 3: especially if you don't have the center of locking center differential.
28:49
Speaker 3: So that can really apply to those all will drive
28:52
Speaker 3: cars that they work surprisingly well under left foot braking.
28:55
Speaker 3: The problem though, is that not every modern vehicle allows.
28:58
Speaker 2: You to do that.
29:00
Speaker 3: So if you'd like to learn left foot breaking. Make
29:01
Speaker 3: sure that the car that you own or that you're
29:03
Speaker 3: interested in buying will actually allow you to do that.
29:06
Speaker 3: If you try that in a Hyundai, if you put
29:08
Speaker 3: your foot on the brake and you start to apply
29:10
Speaker 3: the throttle, it'll shut down the throttle, it won't work.
29:13
Speaker 3: But of course a land Rover and a Grenadier in
29:15
Speaker 3: a land Cruiser, they all work.
29:16
Speaker 4: Yeah. The cars are designed for the piece of the
29:20
Speaker 4: market and the train that are operating in. So that
29:22
Speaker 4: high Endi example of cars doing.
29:23
Speaker 2: Exactly is it what it's supposed to do.
29:25
Speaker 4: The car's going I'm confused. You're telling me to go
29:27
Speaker 4: forwards by pressing the gas pedal, and you're telling me
29:29
Speaker 4: to break.
29:30
Speaker 2: I'm just going to break. That's probably safe and that
29:33
Speaker 2: makes sense.
29:33
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then somebody I like knowing your vehicle. That
29:36
Speaker 4: conversation we were having earlier is knowing your vehicle and
29:39
Speaker 4: whether that's a tool that you can use. A lot
29:42
Speaker 4: of these vehicles, like the toilet as the land Rovers
29:44
Speaker 4: the Grenadier will change the ability to use that left
29:49
Speaker 4: foot breaking depending on what drive mode you're in, whether
29:51
Speaker 4: you're in higher range or low range, and really it
29:54
Speaker 4: stops the vehicle lurching forwards or rolling back and prevents
29:57
Speaker 4: it gives you this greater degree of control.
29:59
Speaker 1: Once you get used to it. It feels unnatural to
30:01
Speaker 1: note left foot for sure when you're in technical to.
30:04
Speaker 4: Look at every single racing car driver from rally to
30:06
Speaker 4: auto cross to Formula.
30:08
Speaker 2: One, pel toe all of it.
30:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, just control, not usually like rock copying
30:13
Speaker 1: in the Earth Rummer.
30:14
Speaker 2: Although your most stuck was in the Earth Rummer.
30:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will tell you where I left foot break
30:20
Speaker 1: in the Earth Rummers, and if I have to go
30:22
Speaker 1: up on a rock to level, I'm just like, you
30:24
Speaker 1: just have so much more control, and instead of it
30:28
Speaker 1: just being a throttle element, like you said, you're feathering
30:31
Speaker 1: both of these pedals.
30:32
Speaker 2: At the same time. Oh yeah, that was really stuck though.
30:36
Speaker 2: That was great.
30:38
Speaker 3: That was great.
30:39
Speaker 2: That was great.
30:40
Speaker 1: So I would love to take this to travel obviously.
30:43
Speaker 1: That's something we always try and discuss on this podcast.
30:46
Speaker 1: So in the last couple of minutes here, so I'm
30:48
Speaker 1: actually gonna step out. I actually need to go have
30:51
Speaker 1: a meeting. I'm here at Overland Expo, that's what we're
30:53
Speaker 1: doing this podcast, and I'm going to have a meeting
30:55
Speaker 1: with Grace Schuller, who is one of the members of
30:58
Speaker 1: the tread Lightley team. So he's a really important thing.
31:01
Speaker 1: It's something that Matt and I believe in. I know
31:03
Speaker 1: Chris believes in it. So I actually need to step
31:06
Speaker 1: out of this conversation. But please take a look at
31:09
Speaker 1: Chris Walker's work, get to know what he does a
31:11
Speaker 1: little bit better. He's always involved with the Overland expos
31:14
Speaker 1: He's going to be at the big Thing as one
31:17
Speaker 1: of the key trainers there. So you guys are all
31:19
Speaker 1: in for a treat. With the rest of this conversation
31:21
Speaker 1: with Matt and Chris, and.
31:23
Speaker 3: A special thanks to Treder for their support of this
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31:30
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31:34
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31:37
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31:39
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31:47
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32:18
Speaker 1: So a lot of what we've talked about on the
32:20
Speaker 1: commercial side with kind of like risk assessment, risk mitigation,
32:24
Speaker 1: and you're talking about these guys being on resource roads
32:27
Speaker 1: in America would call them for our service roads. You're
32:29
Speaker 1: so far out, and that just is such a natural
32:33
Speaker 1: thing for a lot of this long distance international overlanding.
32:36
Speaker 2: Right.
32:36
Speaker 1: It may be that you're in Mongolia and there you
32:39
Speaker 1: are a thousand kilometers from septhing. But what it also
32:43
Speaker 1: may be is that you're in you're in a country
32:46
Speaker 1: that just can't service your car and you may not
32:49
Speaker 1: have any local contacts. If you get stuck in Moab,
32:54
Speaker 1: someone's going to come along. If you get stuck in
32:56
Speaker 1: outside of a major city, eventually somebody's going to come along.
33:00
Speaker 1: But if you make you really have to consider this
33:04
Speaker 1: risk assessment when you're doing technical terrain travel internationally because
33:09
Speaker 1: the consequences like just get like skyrocketed.
33:13
Speaker 4: I think it's I don't think it's necessarily just the
33:15
Speaker 4: big long distance travel. It could be rock rolling, or
33:19
Speaker 4: it could be at an OHV park and all that
33:20
Speaker 4: kind of stuff. I think when we use the word
33:23
Speaker 4: risk assessment, people get anxious that it's going to become
33:26
Speaker 4: very stuffy, too much work.
33:28
Speaker 1: It does sound a little stuffy, especially with your accents.
33:31
Speaker 1: It's very like health and safety, it is, but it's
33:35
Speaker 1: really brilliant. And there's so many vehicles that I've seen
33:37
Speaker 1: damaged on the recreational for whel drive side of friends
33:41
Speaker 1: of mine, where they just.
33:44
Speaker 2: You know.
33:44
Speaker 1: The biggest thing that I always tell people is sound British,
33:47
Speaker 1: is have a cup of tea. If you get stuck, like,
33:50
Speaker 1: have a cup of tea. You get stuck, there's a
33:52
Speaker 1: big there's a big obstacle, whatever it is. If you're
33:56
Speaker 1: not doing these things regularly, your heart rate just skyrocket.
34:02
Speaker 1: You're running on adrenaline. You just want to get out
34:04
Speaker 1: of this situation, right. So knowing if you're going into
34:09
Speaker 1: a situation that is it's going to be stressful, right,
34:13
Speaker 1: it's going to be your risk level, your risk profiles
34:17
Speaker 1: really elevated. Have a cup of tea, and do your
34:22
Speaker 1: risk assessment.
34:23
Speaker 4: Take a breath, and that risk assessment could be subconscious.
34:26
Speaker 4: It doesn't need to necessarily in the recreational world, be
34:28
Speaker 4: this long drawn out process. It could be as simple
34:31
Speaker 4: as we have this water crossing ahead of us. Do
34:36
Speaker 4: I need to get across it right now? Is it deep?
34:39
Speaker 4: Is it flowing? Does my carcape have the capability? Is
34:42
Speaker 4: there an alternative? That's risk assessment right there? And a
34:46
Speaker 4: lot of people, I bet probably already do that. They're
34:48
Speaker 4: not necessarily suggesting we make it more formal for folks,
34:51
Speaker 4: But I think.
34:52
Speaker 1: It's consider the actions, consider what you're doing.
34:56
Speaker 4: I think you brought up a really good example is
34:58
Speaker 4: that when we get anxious, as any human in anyth situation,
35:01
Speaker 4: heart rate gets elevated, blood starts flowing more, We're more
35:05
Speaker 4: primed for kind of the vital flight response. And sometimes
35:09
Speaker 4: in a vehicle, that vital flight response subconsciously can be
35:12
Speaker 4: throttle application. Yeah, which is when screen pedal. Think about
35:16
Speaker 4: in doubt, while.
35:17
Speaker 1: Went in doubt, throttle out? And that is you hear
35:19
Speaker 1: people say that so much. Maybe that is the case
35:24
Speaker 1: if you're like in a mud bog, like when I
35:27
Speaker 1: was sixteen and I was like driving my land rover
35:30
Speaker 1: through like corn fuels after they were plowed. Yeah, you
35:37
Speaker 1: start slowing down, Yeah yeah, hit that skinny pedal. Man,
35:39
Speaker 1: there's not real much consequence there when there's no tree
35:42
Speaker 1: within a mile. But when you're doing something proper technical,
35:45
Speaker 1: especially in a vehicle for travel, that is gonna just
35:48
Speaker 1: it's going to have a higher center of gravity. Right,
35:50
Speaker 1: you have a rooftop tent, you have a roof rack,
35:54
Speaker 1: maybe some fuel cans things because you're living out of it.
35:59
Speaker 1: Like when I the types of vehicles that you travel
36:02
Speaker 1: in are just they're also just heavier. That place is
36:04
Speaker 1: more strain on the vehicle. We talk about like choosing
36:08
Speaker 1: the right vehicle for the application. Yeah, and we talk
36:12
Speaker 1: about staying within the design envelope of that vehicle, like
36:17
Speaker 1: not taking a Tacoma and trying to turn it into a.
36:21
Speaker 2: Rock crawler.
36:24
Speaker 4: Or with all the stuff on it.
36:26
Speaker 1: But then it's a rock crawler, pre runner overland truck.
36:30
Speaker 2: Like it's not going to do anything.
36:31
Speaker 4: Man, that's the challenge I see as well. I Like
36:34
Speaker 4: we said earlier, I think it's really fun and engaging
36:37
Speaker 4: to modify your vehicle and make it your own and
36:39
Speaker 4: put the stuff on it that you want to make
36:42
Speaker 4: more comfortable out there on your trips, bit a rock
36:45
Speaker 4: crawling trip, or bit a long distance trip nationally or internationally.
36:50
Speaker 4: The irony is with most vehicles these days is if
36:53
Speaker 4: you start modifying it outside the manufacturers recommend or manufacturer's
36:58
Speaker 4: kind of production of that vehicle, or quite often than not,
37:02
Speaker 4: you're reducing the capability of that vehicle that the listeners
37:06
Speaker 4: are gonna be like, I don't.
37:06
Speaker 2: Believe there's always for every action, there's a.
37:10
Speaker 4: Reaction equal and operate, equal and opposite reaction. Absolutely. Now,
37:14
Speaker 4: there are definitely niche moments where you may be modifying
37:17
Speaker 4: and jeep to go crawling, But everything that you do
37:20
Speaker 4: once you stop in a bigger tires or bigger suspension,
37:23
Speaker 4: you need to be considering all the other pieces that
37:25
Speaker 4: go with it, transmission, drive train, all the stuff. So
37:29
Speaker 4: a lot of the stuff out there. This is what
37:31
Speaker 4: kind of brings me back to keep your vehicle simple
37:33
Speaker 4: to start with. Know what your vehicle does right out
37:36
Speaker 4: the gate. It'll take you to places that you will
37:39
Speaker 4: be stunned by, absolutely stune by as a stock vehicle
37:43
Speaker 4: with a few creature comforts. The other challenge as well
37:45
Speaker 4: is that a lot of this stuff here at the
37:47
Speaker 4: show is fantastic, but by the time you've bolted on
37:50
Speaker 4: a ton of it, you could potentially be well outside
37:53
Speaker 4: your GVWR of your vehicle, potentially compromising.
37:57
Speaker 1: Consequence for that. In Canada, is there a normal consequence for.
38:01
Speaker 4: If they took you to a way station, it could
38:03
Speaker 4: void insurance because you've taken it outside of your vehicles
38:06
Speaker 4: manufacturers recommended, you know.
38:08
Speaker 1: That's the thing that's interesting here is that there's no
38:14
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any real punishment for it. I'm
38:16
Speaker 1: sure it could be tried in like a civil thing.
38:18
Speaker 1: You hit a school bus full of kids and your
38:21
Speaker 1: truck weighs ten pounds and it's meant to weigh four
38:25
Speaker 1: and you couldn't break or something.
38:28
Speaker 2: Maybe there's negligence. I'm not a lawyer, don't take that
38:30
Speaker 2: as legal advice or anything.
38:32
Speaker 1: But there's just there's so many things right Like I
38:36
Speaker 1: remember wheeling a moab with the two head engineers for
38:40
Speaker 1: the Wrangler JL and they built that platform they package
38:45
Speaker 1: protected for thirty five inch tires, which means all of
38:48
Speaker 1: their validation that you joins the cvs, the ball joints,
38:53
Speaker 1: all of this stuff to last a long time was
38:56
Speaker 1: built around a maximum of thirty five inch tire, not
39:00
Speaker 1: to say that you can't maybe do a thirty seven,
39:05
Speaker 1: but that's what that vehicle is actually designed for.
39:07
Speaker 4: And they spend millions of dollars millions of pounds.
39:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, and with that.
39:11
Speaker 1: Reason, there's just like negative thing where they're like, oh,
39:13
Speaker 1: the manufacturers are stupid, they don't know what they're doing.
39:16
Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, but do you think Bob that
39:18
Speaker 1: is doing some cardboard aided design that maybe you started
39:22
Speaker 1: a fab shop really knows what he's doing or is
39:25
Speaker 1: he just did he just overbuild the crap out of
39:27
Speaker 1: something and it like yeah, it works, but again, maybe
39:35
Speaker 1: you just compromised something else because you strengthen one thing
39:39
Speaker 1: and then it goes down the food chain.
39:40
Speaker 4: Absolutely, there's some really talented manufacturers or often market manufacturers
39:45
Speaker 4: out there who do a lot of due diligence, people
39:47
Speaker 4: like AV who work with RAM directly to en show
39:50
Speaker 4: that tolerance is a captain people.
39:51
Speaker 1: I hate that I mentioned AV so much and it's
39:53
Speaker 1: like I don't lately, I don't shut up about aev
39:56
Speaker 1: and ineos and like it's just good, It's just it's good,
39:59
Speaker 1: Like I like to the listener. I'm sorry that I
40:02
Speaker 1: mentioned this so much, but I wish that there was
40:04
Speaker 1: more companies out there like.
40:06
Speaker 4: That, people like Total Chaos and a few other people. Yeah,
40:10
Speaker 4: parently is I've got a Prospector Excel and I love it.
40:14
Speaker 4: It's got forties on it. Yeah, there's a reason for
40:17
Speaker 4: having that vehicle from my perspective, from my company. In
40:20
Speaker 4: some of the places that we go, we have to
40:22
Speaker 4: occupy a certain mass and size of vehicle to be
40:26
Speaker 4: allowed in some of these locations because of the size
40:29
Speaker 4: of vehicles that we operate around.
40:31
Speaker 2: Oh interesting.
40:32
Speaker 4: Yeah, like if you're operating around a big electric shovel
40:35
Speaker 4: or a six undred ton rock truck or whatever it
40:37
Speaker 4: might be, there's certain size vehicles and regulations depending on that.
40:41
Speaker 1: You can't have a little Japanese K truck.
40:44
Speaker 4: You could, but kind of your life explacencies. But then
40:47
Speaker 4: I get in my Defender ninety which is stock on
40:49
Speaker 4: barely thirty inch tires and no electronic features and a
40:53
Speaker 4: center locking diff and I love it. But that brings
40:55
Speaker 4: me back to I probably get more driver enjoyment and
41:00
Speaker 4: scial evolution by driving my old land Rover. And that
41:05
Speaker 4: doesn't mean to say, I don't love driving jeeps and
41:08
Speaker 4: modern toyotas, But as I said earlier, it's all about
41:11
Speaker 4: simple driver skill. And when I started to get into
41:14
Speaker 4: this career with people, Jim Sweat one of the best
41:17
Speaker 4: off road instructors ever. Yeah, teaches all those nuances of
41:22
Speaker 4: how to make your vehicle move and how to make
41:24
Speaker 4: smart choices and make those risk assessments. You could go
41:28
Speaker 4: out there. Why do most people buy a winch and
41:30
Speaker 4: put it on their vehicle? Okay, so I get stuck.
41:34
Speaker 4: Why can't you use your winch in certain situations to
41:38
Speaker 4: ensure that you don't get stuck and to increase mechanical
41:43
Speaker 4: sympathy by aiding yourself up that rockshelf.
41:46
Speaker 2: That you and you brought up, like the traction board thing.
41:48
Speaker 1: I remember when Laura and I crossed the Simpson Desert,
41:51
Speaker 1: we had a troop carrier. I remember it had something
41:55
Speaker 1: like sixty seven kill a watts at the wheels. It's
41:59
Speaker 1: like a hundred horse the wheels or probably weighs.
42:01
Speaker 4: Twice as much as my defender.
42:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably weigh like seven million pounds. And you're going
42:07
Speaker 1: up all these like soft, very soft Sandians, and I
42:12
Speaker 1: would throw the traction boards out because I knew that
42:14
Speaker 1: I wasn't going to make it up. But I'd get
42:17
Speaker 1: to the top, I get to the point where to
42:19
Speaker 1: slightly downhill, I'll just go run back and grab them.
42:21
Speaker 1: And it's so much easier, And it was just like
42:24
Speaker 1: hitting the easy button. Preemptively using this equipment can be
42:29
Speaker 1: so powerful.
42:30
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and that's the core behind everything we do. Knowing
42:35
Speaker 4: your vehicle, knowing a situation, making that risk assessment, making
42:39
Speaker 4: a decision in advance, rather than having to make a
42:42
Speaker 4: decision of oh shoot, now I'm really they go a
42:45
Speaker 4: little stuck or in a compromising position. Sure, those things
42:48
Speaker 4: happen organically, sometimes by the loss of concentration or a
42:52
Speaker 4: poorn choice, but for us, it's it sounds really stuffy,
42:57
Speaker 4: but it's not. It's just making better choices while you're
43:00
Speaker 4: out there. Why beat your car up and have to
43:03
Speaker 4: spend more money on fixing it. Why compromise your trip?
43:05
Speaker 4: Why upset the wife? Why damage the environment and terrain?
43:10
Speaker 4: That kind of stuff.
43:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I go back to the weird ego thing too,
43:14
Speaker 1: because people like to modify. And then there's also this
43:18
Speaker 1: thing up there's this badge of honor of breaking or
43:20
Speaker 1: body damage with this.
43:22
Speaker 4: It's just not my cup tea whatsoever. But if that's
43:25
Speaker 4: what people want to do, then I can't judge them
43:27
Speaker 4: for that in my opinion. Yeah, is it my thing?
43:29
Speaker 1: No, So someone's driving the Luguna's route in Bolivia, what's
43:38
Speaker 1: your parting.
43:38
Speaker 2: Advice for them?
43:40
Speaker 4: Make smart choices?
43:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's what this is about. It should
43:44
Speaker 1: be make smart choices with Chris Walker. And I don't
43:47
Speaker 1: always make smart choices with Chris Walker.
43:50
Speaker 4: I can neither confirm or deny that.
43:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, when the pink wine comes out, we distracted.
43:55
Speaker 2: We do a risk. We always do a risk assessment.
43:57
Speaker 4: Exactly do we have enough rose?
44:00
Speaker 2: Yeah?
44:01
Speaker 1: Chris, it has been long overdue to have you on
44:04
Speaker 1: this podcast.
44:05
Speaker 4: My pleasure.
44:06
Speaker 1: I'm so excited that we finally made it happen and
44:09
Speaker 1: has been really fascinating to talk to you about some
44:11
Speaker 1: of these commercial principles and how you're training on that side,
44:16
Speaker 1: and maybe how I need to advise and consider what
44:19
Speaker 1: I'm doing in the future. I've never really thought of
44:21
Speaker 1: it as like a risk assessment. I was always just
44:24
Speaker 1: don't be stupid. I don't want to break this. Be
44:26
Speaker 1: gentle on the vehicle for me. It was always like
44:28
Speaker 1: mechanical sympathy, but this kind of takes it to a
44:31
Speaker 1: next level and I have definitely learned a lot from you.
44:34
Speaker 1: Hopefully we do this again soon.
44:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, that sounds good, my pleasure.
44:36
Speaker 1: Thanks Matt, all right, thank you for listening to the
44:39
Speaker 1: over on Journal podcast.
44:40
Speaker 2: Well, we'll catch you soon.
44:41
Speaker 4: Take care.