Latest / Crafted Connections / EP 7: Curiosity, Sobriety, & the Healing Nature of Stories with Anna Zimmerman

Transcript

EP 7: Curiosity, Sobriety, & the Healing Nature of Stories with Anna Zimmerman · Crafted Connections

0:04
Katelyn: Hello! Welcome to Crafted Connections.
0:07
Katelyn: I'm Katelyn Calhoun, and this is a podcast all about storytelling and building genuine community.
0:12
Katelyn: Here we'll dive into the art of storytelling, unpack strategies for making meaningful connections, and hear from incredible humans who are using their story to create impact.
0:22
Katelyn: So grab your favorite beverage, settle in, and let's craft some connections.
0:28
Katelyn: Welcome back to Crafty Connections.
0:31
Katelyn: It is so wonderful to have you.
0:33
Katelyn: I'm quite pumped to share this episode.
0:36
Katelyn: Do you have one of those friends where when you spend time with them, you're like, it's like the equivalent of someone being like, here's a warm cup of tea, here's a blankie, here's a hot pad for your aching, cramping muscles.
0:48
Katelyn: Like, that is what Anna Zimmerman is to me.
0:51
Katelyn: She is one of those people that really just takes care of people and has like really interesting insights.
0:58
Katelyn: We talk about how she and I know each other through some marketing video production work that we've done.
1:04
Katelyn: Even more importantly, we dive into her her passions, her curiosities.
1:08
Katelyn: We talk about her sobriety journey and the role that storytelling played in it.
1:12
Katelyn: It's a great conversation.
1:14
Katelyn: I hope that you enjoy it.
1:15
Katelyn: I hope that you take some things away.
1:17
Katelyn: Let's dive right in, shall we?
1:19
Katelyn: Hello, Anna.
1:23
Katelyn: Welcome to Crafted Connections.
1:25
Katelyn: I'm so excited to have you.
1:26
Anna: I'm so excited to be here.
1:28
Katelyn: So good.
1:29
Katelyn: Okay, so there's so many things, there's so many things that we could dive into.
1:34
Katelyn: Uh, but let's just kick off with like, who's Anna Zimmerman?
1:38
Katelyn: Yeah, just really leading with the tough questions.
1:41
Katelyn: Who is Yeah, summarize your entire being in two sentences.
1:44
Anna: Okay.
1:44
Anna: In two sentences.
1:45
Anna: Yes.
1:46
Anna: Oh gosh.
1:48
Anna: I'm trying not to lead with like what I do for work.
1:52
Katelyn: That's the hardest part.
1:53
Katelyn: I was literally thinking about that because I find you to be such a like all humans, we are whole, full beings.
1:59
Katelyn: And we met each other through work, but it goes so much further than that, and it doesn't make any sense.
2:06
Anna: None.
2:07
Anna: I am on the cusp, just a whisper away from 40.
2:15
Anna: Curious human who has two wild little girls, a partner.
2:23
Anna: I live in the Midwest, and I am just, I don't know, evolving.
2:30
Anna: I hate this answer.
2:32
Katelyn: No, but I love this answer because I think you give people so much space and allow them to change.
2:40
Katelyn: And we live how many different lives during our lives.
2:44
Katelyn: So summarizing it into two sentences is like not even a thing, right?
2:49
Katelyn: Like that's been one of the things I I've been starting off with the like, tell me quickly in your own words about yourself, right?
2:56
Katelyn: But it's like, I'm in the jar.
2:59
Katelyn: I can't read the label.
3:00
Katelyn: Like, you tell me who I am, right?
3:02
Katelyn: And and but also don't tell me who I am.
3:06
Anna: Yeah.
3:06
Anna: Well, and I I think it is also like, especially thinking about what you're doing here and kind of thinking about story and and also how you know, connecting with people and the gut reaction to the question of like, tell me a little bit about yourself is like, let me put myself in a box for you to digest.
3:28
Anna: Like, let me say, like, here's something, here's a way for you to like make sense of me.
3:34
Anna: And that's fine, right?
3:36
Anna: I mean, that's how we, you know, things begin, right?
3:39
Anna: We can't literally how we can't peel the onion all the way down to the core to be like, and here's who, you know.
3:45
Anna: Although I crave that, right?
3:47
Anna: Like I really, I I love, I love that.
3:51
Anna: And to your point, I love creating a space where people feel like they can do that with me.
3:58
Anna: Uh, that's really important to me.
4:00
Katelyn: I love what you're saying here in the sense too, right?
4:03
Katelyn: Like, there are things that you and I probably separately have interests in that don't intersect, right?
4:10
Katelyn: So you and I never talk about said things.
4:12
Katelyn: So when it's one of those things of, hey, tell me who you are, and you're like, cool, I'm gonna I'm gonna give you this box of like that intersection, right?
4:19
Katelyn: And that's kind of what this podcast is all about, in the sense of like we tell stories about ourselves to each other, and when something clicks between two humans, two brains, two bodies, you know, it's like, oh, cool, we have that common ground.
4:34
Katelyn: And then you kind of like start developing connection, and from there it multiplies to be like a community.
4:39
Katelyn: And so I love like that.
4:41
Katelyn: That's how we we've started this.
4:43
Katelyn: And then I would say as well, let's back up a little bit further.
4:48
Katelyn: And you know, you said you're a curious person, and so I think that is a thread throughout your life.
4:54
Katelyn: Can you kind of talk about the thread of curiosity throughout your life and your experiences in that?
4:59
Anna: Yeah, yeah, it's a great question, of course.
5:02
Anna: It is one of my top five values, curiosity, which I've only like, I think in the past year really defined.
5:13
Anna: And so, of course, yeah, now using that as a lens to see the ways that that has been defining for my whole life.
5:20
Anna: So, youngest of four and daughter of two teachers.
5:26
Anna: And so my dad was uh a history teacher, my mom taught English, and so even thinking about like what did vacation look like for us as kids, it was museums that nobody else was in, you know, like I mean, it was like very educational, uh, lots of books around, lots of kind of opportunity to explore.
5:50
Anna: I also being kind of the youngest of four and the only girl, spent a lot of time on my own.
5:57
Anna: And that was like coming up with plays and you know, performances and and dances to the Lion King score, not the songs, like the score.
6:08
Katelyn: Yeah.
6:09
Anna: And then, you know, I think that just stayed with me.
6:12
Anna: I mean, people from a young age were like, oh, I think you'd be a great teacher.
6:15
Anna: And I was like, no, I'm not like I'm not gonna do that, and found my way into that world.
6:22
Anna: Again, kind of resisted for a long time, but loved school and essentially was like, let me stay in it as long as possible.
6:29
Anna: I have so many questions.
6:30
Anna: I love being in groups of people who are thinking and reading and asking questions of each other and the world, and all the way through, you know, got my master's and got my PhD and then became a college professor where I got paid to continue that work and help, you know, other people do that too.
6:50
Anna: Stay curious, continue to ask questions.
6:52
Katelyn: I'm kind of kicking myself right now because I'm like, damn, I didn't say Dr.
6:55
Katelyn: Anna Zimmerman, which is like like I just have, you know, you and other friends who have like worked so hard for that doctor.
7:03
Katelyn: We gotta throw it in there as much as possible.
7:05
Katelyn: Are you still like throwing it out there quite a bit, or how does that identity with that?
7:10
Anna: That's right.
7:11
Anna: I mean, I think you and I have talked about that.
7:13
Anna: I mean, I think like so I pivoted out of academia.
7:18
Anna: I think, you know, in some ways I was part of the great resignation in 2022, so decided to leave academia.
7:25
Anna: A lot of intersecting things about that, but I think, you know, letting go of this identity that I had created that was Anna as academic, Anna as teacher.
7:38
Anna: Yeah, just being in education more broadly.
7:43
Anna: I mean, it's my parents were both teachers, right?
7:45
Anna: I mean, it's like the sea I had been swimming in my whole life.
7:48
Anna: Yeah.
7:49
Anna: You married a doctor, you know, like Yeah, and we were both getting our PhD.
7:53
Anna: And so being able to like let go of that back to the introduction, right?
7:59
Anna: To be able to walk up to someone and say, What do you do?
8:02
Anna: And you know, to be able to say, Oh, I'm a college professor, like people automatically know what that means.
8:08
Anna: There's a value maybe associated, good or bad.
8:10
Anna: Like they're there's something like very quickly, they're able to make sense of you.
8:15
Anna: And so, like, talk about like, yeah, the ego death of like, okay, I'm just gonna like let that go.
8:21
Anna: I think I'm still there are moments where I'm like, oh, I want you to know that I, you know, I did this thing.
8:28
Anna: And, you know, that's just something for me to notice.
8:30
Anna: Like, oh, why is why is that kind of right?
8:33
Katelyn: That, and I mean it's it's a deconditioning, it's an unlearning as someone who also has a very strong background in a male-dominated field.
8:39
Katelyn: Like, I just like can't help but be like, no, see her doctorate, see it, you know?
8:44
Katelyn: And like it's like, okay, we're raging, let's take some breaths, like, you know, and like recognizing that we've got all these intersecting identities.
8:52
Katelyn: And yes, you are a woman, and yes, you were in this industry, but like it's not about like assimilating to a world that wasn't built for you as much as like carving out space for yourself.
9:02
Katelyn: I mean, you are so great at creating space for others, like, how can you also do that for yourself?
9:06
Katelyn: But then, you know, as a part of that great resignation and you being, you know, one of many, we got to meet because you fell into marketing for a few years there.
9:16
Katelyn: And then we got to drive all over Indiana and the Midwest and produce videos about these beautiful small towns and the wonderful individuals there.
9:25
Katelyn: And so, like, we connected over connecting with people.
9:29
Katelyn: And and you've shared what gets you out of bed is uh the opportunity to connect with people.
9:33
Katelyn: And I thought that was so fun because that's literally how we became pals.
9:38
Anna: Again, that's something I feel like I've put words and thoughts around or just kind of defined more clearly in the past year.
9:47
Anna: Doing that work, videos, and like connecting with people was so I mean overflowing.
9:54
Anna: It was like this intersection of like I got to collaborate with people, it was creative, I got to meet all these people and hear their stories and learn about new places.
10:01
Anna: Like, I mean, it was just like everything I love about the world.
10:04
Anna: And then, but the other part of that job was, you know, me on a computer.
10:09
Anna: Like it was very solo.
10:10
Anna: And I, and as we moved away from doing more of those videos, I was like, wow, like, you know, there it does feel like this feels hard to me.
10:21
Anna: And that's because, you know, the balance or like where I am, I am most alive, I'm you know, most kind of in my power is when I'm connecting with other people.
10:34
Anna: Like, that's just like if I don't have that in my day, I like very much notice, like, oh, I'm I'm not having like the full experience that I want.
10:43
Anna: I mean, there are tons of days where it's like, okay, I just like have to be like on my computer doing solo work because it's you know, whatever, that's what I have to be doing.
10:51
Anna: But kind of like, how do I bring balance to that?
10:55
Anna: Because I just like want to talk with people and learn about and learn about them.
11:00
Katelyn: Yeah, yeah.
11:00
Katelyn: And then yeah, and when you're you're set to the side and and be like, hey, you know, knock out these to-dos kind of thing.
11:06
Katelyn: It's I in no way am interpreting this as like you're like, don't make me sit on a computer, right?
11:11
Katelyn: It's it, but it is like, it's like, let me fill up my cup, you know?
11:14
Katelyn: Don't get me wrong.
11:15
Katelyn: Like, we're not mad about like every single day we're out there, somebody else is doing all like the behind-the-scenes coordinating, and you get to just like interact and free flow and this, that, and the other.
11:22
Katelyn: And that's like hashtag dream, right?
11:24
Katelyn: And also you live in the real world and you understand like where like sometimes emails need to be sent, you know.
11:31
Katelyn: That's right.
11:31
Katelyn: That's right.
11:32
Katelyn: It's such a dance, it's such a dance.
11:34
Katelyn: So now you have transitioned out of marketing and are in more of the coaching space.
11:40
Katelyn: How would you describe that?
11:42
Anna: In the leadership development space.
11:44
Anna: Uh, my company, Flashpoint, we work exclusively with leaders and teams.
11:49
Anna: Yes, there's like a bit of coaching.
11:52
Anna: I'm not like fully into that practice yet.
11:55
Anna: I would say most of my days, or like what I'm I spend most of my time doing, is um as facilitator.
12:01
Anna: So like with a group of people, I'm teaching in those spaces, but again, kind of facilitating adult learning, which is wonderful.
12:12
Anna: That's the space I'm in.
12:13
Anna: And, you know, we work with gosh, all different kinds of industries and different stages of folks' careers.
12:22
Anna: And it's a woman-founded, woman-run company, which I have just been loving.
12:29
Anna: And it's just really energizing, also, to work for a company where I get to both facilitate or help other people grow and develop while that's also being nurtured in me.
12:46
Anna: And I'm journeying alongside other folks that are interested in thinking about and talking about those things.
12:53
Anna: It's definitely a part of academia.
12:55
Anna: I mean, I think differently, definitely not as healthy.
12:59
Anna: Yeah.
12:59
Anna: In retrospect.
13:01
Anna: I mean, there's again different kinds of things happening in that space, but it feels really just aligned, I think, for me now.
13:08
Anna: The work that I get to show up and do with people is also what I'm committed to.
13:14
Anna: And the people like my bosses, I get to have like really open and honest and vulnerable conversations with them.
13:21
Anna: And it's healing.
13:24
Anna: That's a it's a healing thing.
13:27
Katelyn: Well, and I remember we've we've discussed uh in relation to your time in academia, and a part of the professor's experience, especially an undergrad professor, right, is like 18 to 21.
13:41
Katelyn: Like that's such an incubation period for adulthood that like it's not just, hey, we're gonna teach you how to public speak, but we're gonna teach you how to be like a human adult.
13:51
Anna: Yeah.
13:51
Anna: Yeah.
13:52
Katelyn: Now in the video production space, I'm like, oh, I didn't need to go to school for video production per se.
13:56
Katelyn: I needed to go to school so I could like incubate with other little like early adult babies and like figure out how to like not live at my parents' house.
14:04
Katelyn: And my professors helped me do that.
14:06
Katelyn: They held space for me, and that was super helpful to function.
14:10
Anna: Yeah.
14:10
Anna: I mean, I think like part of why I even wanted to be a professor was that I had my speech coach, Randy Richardson, who we lovingly called Sir.
14:21
Anna: It's like, I don't know what was his nickname, it just was.
14:24
Anna: It's like, let me just be the messiest mess and cry in his office.
14:29
Anna: And I just was so like, I'll pay this forward forever.
14:33
Anna: And I did, let me tell you.
14:35
Anna: Yeah, people did.
14:36
Anna: They came and they cried in my office, and I was so happy to do that for them because yeah, I mean, it's like it's a big transition.
14:45
Anna: It's your brain is still developing, right?
14:48
Anna: I mean, it's just it is all the things.
14:50
Anna: I mean, part of I think the transition out for me was the pressure of you have to like know what your career is at 18.
15:01
Anna: I'm like, you don't even know, you don't know anything.
15:05
Anna: You don't know what you don't know.
15:07
Anna: Don't you don't know.
15:08
Anna: So like, I don't know.
15:10
Anna: It could be this like really lovely space where people just got to to be curious and kind of open up their brain in that way.
15:19
Katelyn: I do, I do think it's like you said like the pressure on that time to decide.
15:25
Katelyn: You know, you started this being like, you know, I'm a whisper away, you know, from my 40s.
15:29
Katelyn: And it's just like, why do we put these intense, you know, milestones?
15:33
Katelyn: I currently am reflecting on the last few years of of my own like professional experiences.
15:39
Katelyn: And and I think there was similarly as it is in the college experience or whatever time of life you're going through.
15:47
Katelyn: It's like I had these blinders on, like, what an extreme failure.
15:50
Katelyn: But it's like, was that not my 20s?
15:52
Katelyn: Like, was that not me like coming out of the great experiment, which is the first 10 years of adulthood?
15:59
Katelyn: I do not think I wasted them.
16:01
Katelyn: I learned a lot of like wonderful things, and and then we're just gonna keep on moving.
16:06
Katelyn: We're gonna keep on moving, take those lessons and move forward and do our best.
16:10
Anna: I mean, too, I was thinking about this.
16:12
Anna: Like, stories are so powerful in creating connection.
16:18
Anna: They can also be limiting, right?
16:21
Anna: That it's like, I mean, Brené Brown, like the tool of like the story I'm telling myself is such a just powerful phrase, especially if you're in conflict with someone, is like the story that is in my brain that I have created is this, which a lot of times, you know, I will do with my partner and be like, that's not at all what's happening.
16:42
Anna: And I'm like, well, that was what is happening in my brain.
16:45
Anna: We just want to make sense of things and put ourselves on a very linear path.
16:50
Anna: Anytime I'm doing that, that's not that's just not helpful for me.
16:54
Anna: Like I'm then I'm contracted around, like, oh, I need this to happen in a certain time, or it has to follow this path.
17:04
Anna: I don't know.
17:05
Anna: That's the most painful experience for me, is when I think things need to unfold in a certain way.
17:13
Katelyn: Along those lines, the idea of allowing flexibility.
17:16
Katelyn: I use the phrase often, which might be a little bit too constricting, but like the controlling the controllables, right?
17:22
Katelyn: Like, what are we doing that is like we're setting goals for things that we actually don't have control over?
17:27
Katelyn: We're like setting a path that like everything else would have to line up in order for that to work, and you actually can't decide that.
17:35
Anna: Like I am someone who's like, I just want to be vibing in the wind.
17:40
Katelyn: Yeah.
17:40
Anna: You know, like I don't want to be, you know, don't tie me down.
17:43
Anna: Like I'm that is like, which isn't is not also like the healthiest place, right?
17:48
Anna: It's like don't don't box me in, like, don't make don't give me structure.
17:52
Anna: Like on a continuum of structured to unstructured, I'm very unstructured.
17:56
Anna: Has its benefits, but also definitely has its drawbacks.
18:01
Katelyn: Yeah.
18:01
Anna: I'm thinking of some maybe sobriety wisdom, which is also you know a piece piece of the story here, too.
18:11
Anna: Setting an intention or a goal, but then letting go of the result.
18:17
Anna: The thing that I'm currently doing is I'm weight lifting, like I'm working with a trainer right now.
18:24
Anna: Really, the goal for the first time in my entire life is just strength and like showing up for myself regularly, which has been so healing because it is the first time in my life that I am not showing up in a fitness space wanting to make myself smaller, like not having this like end goal of aesthetic, you know, make myself palatable for the male gaze.
18:53
Anna: Like that's like does it still creep in?
18:56
Anna: Of course it does.
18:56
Katelyn: It's so deep the conditioning of it.
19:00
Anna: It's so deep.
19:00
Anna: It's so-
19:02
Katelyn: If you're binging anything from like over 10 years ago, you just like see it, see it.
19:06
Katelyn: Like, you know, in television shows, it's just like, yeah.
19:10
Katelyn: So that's a whole nother that's a that's yeah.
19:13
Katelyn: So that's it's gonna creep in, right?
19:14
Katelyn: Those stories that like are so deeply ingrained, like those are going to creep in.
19:19
Katelyn: And also that's such a fun thing to celebrate.
19:22
Katelyn: I go to the gym for me and my strength and the showing up for me, and it has nothing to do with how I look, my intake, outtake, you know, like all that stuff.
19:33
Katelyn: And the more women who are like stepping forward and sharing that, I do it because it really just feels good.
19:39
Katelyn: It's good for my brain, it's good for my body.
19:41
Katelyn: Like that just feels so good.
19:43
Katelyn: And I love talking about that so much.
19:46
Anna: Well, and I think back to the like idea of like setting a goal but staying flexible too, is like because the goal itself isn't like in a perfect little box, right?
19:58
Anna: It's like it's about like being strong and like showing up for myself.
20:01
Anna: And so, like, there's a degree of flexibility of like, what does that look like week to week?
20:06
Anna: Just the pressure is different.
20:09
Anna: I'm deciding, I get to decide.
20:11
Katelyn: And listening to your body too, right?
20:13
Anna: Yes, yeah.
20:14
Anna: I think we because of course I get the like same, you know, reels in my Instagram feed of like, no wonder millennials have messed up body images, and it's like, here are all of the, you know, America's next top model, you know, and just like all the clips.
20:29
Anna: Well, I mean, the thing about like those messages is they just move into another space.
20:34
Anna: Like they're still so with us, they just look different.
20:38
Anna: And I feel them, and probably because of like 40 and that like here's how you've been able to like have some power in the world, and it's by how you look, which is like again, I mean we could go down that rabbit hole, but like don't don't wanna I don't wanna lit, I don't wanna, I don't, I don't want that.
21:04
Katelyn: Yeah, you're like thank you, no thank you.
21:06
Anna: I don't want it.
21:07
Anna: I just I want to feel strong and I wanna focus on what my body can do, um, what it helps me do.
21:16
Anna: And you know, I've got two little gals who like watch my every move and far from perfect in that way, but at least you know they're gonna see their mom lifting heavy things, and I think that's cool.
21:36
Katelyn: Well, and they're definitely gonna see her trying, right?
21:38
Anna: Right, that's right.
21:40
Katelyn: That's that's freaking awesome.
21:42
Anna: Yeah.
21:42
Katelyn: That is always so helpful, even if it's like someone your own age that you're just like really like, where are they coming from?
21:48
Katelyn: And then imagining them as a little one, like going through the experience, and you're just like, oh my gosh, you know, and just like the anger dissipates, and you're like, We're just all here trying to make it work.
21:59
Katelyn: And so the thing.
21:59
Katelyn: That we say to ourselves, while I don't have children, I have all these friends with cute little ones, and I'm like, if this little one ever thought this thought, it would just break my heart.
22:09
Katelyn: And so it's like, what am I doing thinking that?
22:11
Katelyn: Y'all, I just love to interview people.
22:16
Katelyn: I love sussing out their stories.
22:18
Katelyn: I've been doing it for a while.
22:20
Katelyn: And that's what Calhoun Creative Consulting is all about.
22:24
Katelyn: We are a strategic storytelling firm.
22:26
Katelyn: So, you know, I know there's a huge push for content, content, content, content, content, right?
22:31
Katelyn: But what if you approach it with your story clearly established, with some strategic thinking around how you want to present yourself in the sense of who are you truly?
22:44
Katelyn: How did you get here?
22:45
Katelyn: And where are you going?
22:46
Katelyn: Sharing that with people is essential to get where you want to go.
22:50
Katelyn: So we help people do just that with strategic storytelling advice and also full service video production.
22:57
Katelyn: So if you want more information, check out calhoun creative consulting.com.
23:01
Katelyn: Book a call with us.
23:02
Katelyn: We would love to talk to you about your story.
23:05
Katelyn: I mean, obviously, we're doing it weekly with all these cool people that you've been listening to on the pod.
23:09
Katelyn: Thanks a bunch for being here.
23:11
Katelyn: Now back to the episode.
23:13
Katelyn: You alluded to this, but I would love if you are willing to share your story of sobriety and what that kind of looked like for you.
23:24
Anna: Sure. I was also thinking about that ahead of this because so I got sober by going to AA.
23:35
Anna: Not for everybody, it worked for me.
23:37
Anna: What I think is so just beautifully human and wonderful about AA is that the first day, so you know, say I go to my first ever meeting, and I tell them, like, oh hey, this is my first meeting.
23:53
Anna: Everyone in the room will say, Okay, it's a first step meeting.
23:58
Anna: Meaning this, the first step is like, they say is like the only the only step you have to get 100% right, and that's the one that's like saying, like, I have a problem and I'm I'm not gonna drink today, essentially, or whatever it is, like whatever, you know, there's 12-step programs for all sorts of things now, which is so lovely.
24:16
Anna: And so then what happens is everyone goes around the room and just tells you their story.
24:22
Anna: They just say, like, it is a storytelling group that says, like, and it's three things.
24:29
Anna: And so if I'm doing a first step, you know, kind of meeting, I'm gonna tell you what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now.
24:36
Anna: I'm gonna give you this arc of like, here's what my story was before, here's how I got sober, and and now here's how I live my life.
24:44
Anna: So you can find commonality with other people, you can find what we say, experience strength and hope and like other people's story of like, oh wow, like they have it like me, or wow, that feels actually worse than me.
24:59
Anna: And here they are, you know, like I just and it's free.
25:02
Anna: It's all it's free.
25:04
Anna: It is like the most radical space, I think, in the world that people show up for each other and share and connect and do it because someone gave it to them and then they give it to other people.
25:19
Anna: I just think it's I'm not supposed to evangelize it, but I do like for me, for me, for me, for me, I just think it is like such a cool space.
25:28
Anna: And so I what it was like for me, I didn't even have my first drink until I was 18.
25:34
Anna: I was like, had addiction in my family, and so was very committed to being like, I will just, I will not be that.
25:41
Anna: I will be like the best, you know, straight A student, I will do all the things.
25:46
Anna: Yes, I will be so good.
25:48
Anna: And then had my my first like ever real drink at a graduation party after high school.
25:56
Anna: Like it was like got invited to this party, it was like, oh my gosh, like had not gone to a party, like was such a I mean, both my parents worked in my high school, okay?
26:04
Anna: Like, she's not getting invited to parties.
26:06
Anna: And I gosh, I had that first drink and I was like, people talk about it a lot where it's like you feel like something bloom in your head, like you're just like, oh my gosh.
26:18
Anna: As someone who had a lot of anxiety, a lot of perfectionism, and a lot of just like internal dialogue.
26:25
Anna: It was a moment where I got to be like, oh, that that can that can stop.
26:30
Anna: I can make that stop.
26:31
Anna: And then I can, I can focus on just being connected to people and I can be fun and outgoing and I don't have to like be worried about it.
26:39
Anna: And it wasn't like I was like, you know, zero to a hundred.
26:43
Anna: I mean, it took some time to really develop.
26:45
Anna: I'd say it was really bad for me in grad school.
26:48
Anna: I think like that was a time where I was like really lonely and like desperately, this is the thread back to connection, like desperately like seeking connection with humans and used drinking and going out as a way to facilitate that.
27:05
Anna: But it's like what my heart, my heart's true desire for connection could never be met because as soon as I started drinking, it's like in my mind, I thought that meant I was getting closer together.
27:22
Anna: But it was like I was, you know, I was driving myself further apart.
27:26
Anna: And I I think like for a long time too, I I thought I was just like gonna grow out of it.
27:33
Katelyn: Yeah, yeah.
27:35
Anna: You know what I mean?
27:35
Anna: I think that's part of our cultural narrative about drinking, is like you go to college and you go to grad school, and it's like you're gonna party and you're gonna drink, and then eventually there will come a day where you're like, now I'm done.
27:45
Katelyn: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:47
Anna: It never my it just got progressively worse and it didn't get better, and I wasn't happy with it.
27:56
Anna: And then it it really wasn't until I was with my current partner, my husband, and was like living with and dating someone who could like have half a beer, and I was just like, What?
28:11
Katelyn: You're gonna leave that empty?
28:12
Anna: You're gonna leave that?
28:14
Anna: Like, what are you doing?
28:15
Anna: And it became a real point of tension.
28:18
Anna: And then the night that I decided to get sober, I'd gone out with a friend, and again, under the guise of like, yeah, let's just like go out and have fun.
28:30
Anna: And then we we got back to her apartment and she hid my keys from me and bless her for that.
28:37
Anna: And I was so angry, and I like wanted to go home, and I like called my mom.
28:42
Anna: It was like four in the morning, like it was just a mess.
28:45
Anna: And I woke up the next morning, hungover, of course, but also feeling like I I felt so trapped.
28:54
Anna: And I was like, this thing that I think is giving me freedom and fun and connection is actually keeping me like locked in a cage, and I'm not able to really connect.
29:07
Anna: And so I had a friend who took me to my first meeting, and it wasn't one where I got to share, it was actually a speaker meeting.
29:13
Anna: I was living in Detroit at the time, and it was this man, and I walked in and I remember thinking, like, I'm not like this is great, like I'm happy to be here, like I mean, happy.
29:24
Anna: I'm glad I'm here.
29:25
Anna: Like, I do I do need to get sober, like I want to stop drinking, but like, what is this man gonna offer me?
29:31
Anna: And like, even though the details of his story were different than mine, I was like, I felt so seen by I was talking about his emotional states and like what was happening.
29:46
Anna: And it was like, again, the details were different, but like the root of that story was the same.
29:52
Anna: I got sober the day that I decided was August 14th, 2013.
29:58
Anna: And so still sober today, so that's buck wild.
30:03
Anna: It'll be 12 years in in August.
30:06
Anna: Yeah, I've heard so many different stories, have been able to share my story with people.
30:12
Anna: The other thing I just love about it is it's this is Richard Rohr.
30:17
Anna: He's a Franciscan friar.
30:19
Anna: Like, I mean, he's lovely.
30:20
Anna: He's talking specifically about AA, that it is like this rare space, like you walk in and you say, Here's how I've like totally messed up.
30:30
Anna: And everyone's like, Cool, yeah, me too.
30:33
Anna: And like the what that does for connection, right?
30:37
Anna: To be able, it's not like, hey, here's how I'm like so great.
30:40
Anna: Don't you want to be my friend?
30:42
Anna: Right.
30:43
Anna: It's like it's peeling all of that off and saying, Here's my biggest, like the worst thing I've ever done.
30:51
Anna: And people sitting around, like smiling at you, being like, Yeah, cool, me too.
30:56
Anna: Or hey, I did this thing and it was actually worse.
30:59
Anna: What do you think?
30:59
Anna: The most joyful, like, there's so much laughter because it is this like peeling off of like of shame.
31:09
Anna: It's creating real connections.
31:12
Anna: I I just like I mean, it saved my life.
31:16
Anna: Like, I would be dead.
31:17
Anna: I would be dead if I had kept drinking, you know, eternally grateful for that.
31:23
Anna: But I think it's also it's a place that I can come back to that is so grounding.
31:30
Anna: And again, I just think like such a testament to like humans and to stories, right?
31:36
Anna: That like we can be saved by hearing other people's stories.
31:40
Anna: Like that's that's really, you know, that that's so at the heart of it.
31:44
Anna: I will be like talking to my mom and I'll she'll be asking something and I'll like, I'll offer something that I've like heard in AA.
31:52
Anna: And she's like, oh my gosh, like, how are you so wise?
31:55
Anna: And I'm like, I'm not.
31:56
Anna: Like, I forget.
31:58
Anna: And so like that's why I like in the day-to-day, you know, slog of all of our things, it's like I forget all of these wise things.
32:06
Anna: So I like have to go to a meeting and be like, oh, right, right, right, right.
32:10
Anna: Let me, you know, remember to wear life like a loose garment, or let me remember, you know, to stay grateful or whatever it is, right?
32:20
Anna: So yeah, that was what it was like.
32:23
Anna: What happened?
32:23
Anna: What it's like now.
32:25
Katelyn: I love it.
32:26
Katelyn: I did not know.
32:28
Katelyn: I I think it's maybe because of like the, you know, the public narrative or the like the way that AA is displayed on like a television show or in a movie.
32:38
Katelyn: Like, I didn't, I didn't know that it was so story-based.
32:41
Katelyn: Oh yeah.
32:42
Katelyn: And that like gives me flipping goosebumps.
32:44
Katelyn: Like when you said that I was like tearing up, something I found so much, so much safety and wonderfulness in in our friendship has been because you're like always are like, yeah, me too.
32:54
Katelyn: But here's something, yeah, but here's something worse, right?
32:57
Katelyn: Or like, or like, oof, just hold yeah, oh damn, that's so cool.
33:02
Katelyn: I yeah, I had no idea.
33:03
Katelyn: It was just like a story circle.
33:05
Katelyn: You and I met right before your 10th anniversary of sobriety.
33:10
Katelyn: So, like along that we worked very closely together in that year.
33:14
Katelyn: And yeah, I mean, you just like day one meeting someone, you're not like I'm an alcoholic, right?
33:18
Katelyn: Like, you don't like so so it came up as we were working together because we just spent 12-hour shoot days together, right?
33:25
Katelyn: And and it's just, I don't think I had ever spent that much time or been that close with someone who had been sober for that long.
33:34
Katelyn: You, Anna, as I knew, just combined with like the narrative and the like what is shown as like what an addict is, is usually like in that like you fall off, you get back on, you fall off, you get back on, you fall off, you get back on.
33:48
Katelyn: I could keep doing it, right?
33:49
Katelyn: And and that like, and usually it's in the first few years of recovery and this, that, and the other.
33:53
Katelyn: But like, I don't I don't know if you've got any thoughts around that.
33:57
Katelyn: I just wanted to like reflect that because I think it's so interesting.
34:01
Anna: Yeah.
34:01
Anna: Well, I actually do have a lot of thoughts about that.
34:04
Anna: Like one of the reasons why it took me so long, I think, to realize that I was an alcoholic and should stop drinking, was because I had stories in my mind of what does an alcoholic look like.
34:20
Anna: You know, not only did I have stories in my own family of what an alcoholic looked like, but I think culturally, especially for women, like stories that we are offered of what it looks like, I think are so narrow.
34:37
Anna: I often relate it to heart attack symptoms.
34:41
Anna: We know what the symptoms are for a heart attack for a man.
34:44
Anna: Like those are like we've been told that we see that.
34:48
Anna: But heart attack symptoms for a woman look very different, feel very different.
34:53
Anna: But we don't see that represented.
34:55
Anna: I think very much the same with um substance abuse and and alcoholism.
35:01
Anna: And so as I was kind of gut checking, I was able to say, well, that's not me, even though my day-to-day life was like, I am miserable, I don't want to be doing this.
35:11
Anna: I was able to reference and say, like, well, I'm not that bad.
35:15
Anna: It doesn't look like this.
35:17
Anna: I know for me, you know, hearing other people's stories and meetings, but also like sharing my own story, folks say, like, oh yeah, like that, that is what it feels like for me.
35:30
Anna: And, you know, it's so good to hear someone else's story that like it doesn't have to be you've lost everything and you're spending your last dollar to like get a bottle from the liquor store.
35:42
Anna: It can look like that.
35:44
Anna: Again, like these rooms are full of stories, like all different ways, because it's they're full of humans that experience life in all of the ways that we can experience it.
35:56
Anna: It's so important to know that like there's no one way.
36:00
Anna: And for me, I reached a point finally that I was like, this is untenable.
36:05
Anna: I am miserable, I am on a path of destruction, and I don't want to live this way anymore.
36:14
Anna: So grateful that I had people around me who supported me through that.
36:18
Anna: And I got sober in Detroit.
36:20
Anna: And so I think, you know, Detroit always has the like, I mean, I got my PhD there, I'm at my husband there.
36:25
Anna: Like, there's so many ways that like I just I love that city and it's woven into my story, but it's mostly like the AA rooms in Detroit or and going and getting coney dogs after after meetings.
36:39
Anna: That question of like, yeah, what what were the narratives or or how can you think about that?
36:43
Anna: I think like that's a that's a big piece of it.
36:45
Anna: I mean, I think like we are, and it's probably because of the people I follow on Instagram.
36:51
Anna: I think there's a lot more representation now in in those stories.
36:55
Anna: But yeah, like when I first got sober, I like I read all these memoirs.
36:59
Anna: I was just like, you know, I was like trying to just like give me all the stories of like, how do I do this?
37:04
Anna: How did other people do it?
37:06
Anna: What were they feeling?
37:08
Anna: I mean, I think we're all seeking this.
37:12
Anna: Am I normal?
37:13
Anna: Is this normal?
37:14
Anna: Do other people feel this way?
37:16
Anna: Like, we're just always like wanting that from people.
37:18
Anna: We don't often give each other that.
37:21
Anna: Right.
37:22
Anna: But in 12 step, we do.
37:24
Anna: We say, Yeah, that is I did feel insane in that way.
37:28
Anna: Or I oops, did that, did wreck a car.
37:30
Anna: I did do you know what I mean?
37:32
Anna: I did drive that, I did do this thing, and it's like the shame that gets to leave your body when people are just able to sit across from you honestly and be like, Yep.
37:43
Anna: Yeah, yeah, that is actually that's how it is.
37:48
Katelyn: I appreciate you sharing that so much and your story in that so much, because it's not it's not just about recovery or addiction.
37:58
Katelyn: Like in my own experience, I when you kind of told the story of getting really mad at your friend and realizing change needed to happen and then having someone take you, you know, or go with someone to a meeting.
38:08
Katelyn: I it reminds me a lot of in college when I had my first bout of depression.
38:13
Katelyn: And it it kind of like came to a head when I just like had a rage party, but a friend was like, yo, why are you mad at this person?
38:20
Katelyn: Like, literally, I got mad at a roommate for doing the dishes, like inexplicably mad at them, right?
38:26
Katelyn: Like, and the anger was just like seething and where is it coming from?
38:31
Katelyn: And then literally, some random dude in my class who I knew went to therapy, I asked him to take give me a ride to therapy, right?
38:38
Katelyn: And like, oh, goodness forbid, somebody see me in the therapy office, right?
38:43
Katelyn: But like, it's like those things where it's like you you it's time for a change, right?
38:48
Katelyn: And and I love whether or not someone needs to go in recovery, that's their decision.
38:53
Katelyn: And also they'll see a change needs to be made in my life, whatever it may be.
38:58
Katelyn: Like in my case, it was just like, girl, you're depressed and you're not dealing with it, you know?
39:02
Katelyn: And and then so many other incidences since as a human being, you know, it fluctuates.
39:07
Katelyn: It was cool to hear that in your story and be like, oh, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
39:13
Anna: Yeah.
39:13
Anna: But I will say also, that is like the hardest, the hardest, hard, hard part is what you just described is being like, I have to like ask for help.
39:26
Anna: I have to like step through a door that I don't because I've been relying on this, yeah, right, whatever it is, fill in the blank.
39:35
Anna: And I have to be like, that's actually not working, and I maybe need another person or people.
39:41
Anna: That is right.
39:45
Anna: That is so scary, that is so hard.
39:48
Katelyn: Yeah.
39:48
Anna: I don't take that lightly.
39:50
Anna: Like, I I mean, again, I'm a few years removed from it, but that's the other kind of point of those people, you know, again, come in and it's like, okay, it's a first-step meeting.
40:01
Anna: It is good for the person, the new person to hear everyone's story.
40:06
Anna: It is also good for the people who have been in the program to say, oh, right, why am I here?
40:13
Anna: Yeah, what is it that brought me to this place?
40:16
Katelyn: Yeah.
40:17
Anna: Because it is in that telling and retelling, right, that we stay connected.
40:20
Anna: Because it can be really easy to be like, what if I'm not so bad?
40:24
Anna: What if it was so bad?
40:25
Anna: And it's like, oh, no, you you're gonna tell that story.
40:29
Anna: Yeah, you're gonna remember what's bad.
40:32
Anna: Yeah.
40:32
Anna: You're gonna remember because not only is it gonna help somebody else, because it will, it's gonna help you.
40:37
Anna: Like, I mean, and so many people will say that.
40:40
Anna: But the other thing I want to say, just as a caveat, is if you are a person who thinks that this is a space, or you know, again, any of the 12-step programs, they are also, it has been my experience.
40:54
Anna: If you are just like, I don't know, I'm curious, or I just want to hear, or just want to go and I want to listen, you can do like there's no, you don't have to, you don't have to sign anything, you don't have to be any kind of way, right?
41:06
Anna: Like, I think to your point, like the way that we see 12-step meetings represented in like TV shows and film, like so often it's like I hit rock bottom, which whatever is real.
41:19
Anna: And I'm gonna go to a meeting and they're gonna make me stand at a podium and tell my story.
41:26
Anna: Like, it is the most.
41:28
Anna: I'm like, who would ever want to do?
41:31
Anna: Like, I'm a person who enjoys public speaking, and I still wouldn't be like, Yeah.
41:36
Katelyn: Well, you literally do, like, it's hilarious to hear you say that because you literally have your doctorate in public speaking.
41:41
Katelyn: And so you're just like, you're like, but it doesn't line up.
41:45
Anna: Like, I'm not at your most vulnerable, at your most tender, at your most like, I have messed all the things up, and I'm like, think maybe I need a change in movie and film for I and I'm what you know, since I've worked in the film and she knows that representation makes more sense on film.
42:06
Anna: Sure, I get that, but like that is not what it is like.
42:10
Anna: You can come and sit in the back and not say a single word to a single person.
42:14
Anna: No one is gonna make you talk.
42:17
Anna: I just I always laugh so so much.
42:20
Anna: Or they're sitting in like knee to knee in the like tightest little circle.
42:25
Anna: Like, rarely is that the case either.
42:28
Katelyn: Right.
42:28
Katelyn: Like, I feel like at time like that, you're like, I need I need physical space away from humans.
42:33
Katelyn: Like, especially like I know that's a thing, right?
42:35
Katelyn: Like my sister and I were having experience, like we had a great conversation.
42:39
Katelyn: Like, when we're emotional, we do not want to be touched.
42:42
Katelyn: Like, do not just give me the space.
42:44
Katelyn: You sit on that end of the couch and you ask me how I'm doing, you know?
42:47
Katelyn: And it's like, so we're gonna sit in a circle with strangers touching each other's knees, which is quite intimate.
42:53
Katelyn: You know, if you're if you've ever been on a first date, you know, you know how intimate knee touching can be with the stranger.
42:59
Anna: The most.
43:00
Anna: Yeah, yeah.
43:01
Anna: Yeah.
43:03
Anna: And then maybe we'll have you stand at a podium and like give a speech.
43:07
Anna: People's number one fear is no public speaking.
43:11
Katelyn: I keep interrupting you because I'm so amped about this.
43:14
Katelyn: Yeah, because I'm literally like imagining this scene where like they drag this like very vulnerable person up and it's like pre-the-oh my god.
43:21
Anna: That's what I'm saying.
43:22
Anna: I'm like, and it is not, it is not that.
43:25
Anna: It has been a place for me, yeah, of just like of healing, of it informs every like it shapes everything, you know, and is like a place that I feel like has taught me to be a human in really great ways.
43:45
Anna: It's also a place where I get to like interact with people I probably wouldn't otherwise, right?
43:51
Anna: I mean, it is like such a cross-section of humanity that you're like, would we have crossed paths if we weren't all in this room?
43:58
Anna: Which I think is, of course, you know me.
44:00
Anna: I'm like, tell me your story.
44:02
Anna: Yes, I want to hear them all, like, you know.
44:05
Anna: So like practicing, just like listening and attuning to like other people coming from all different places.
44:11
Anna: I think it's very cool.
44:13
Anna: It's very cool and wonderful.
44:14
Anna: Well, with that, let's bring it home.
44:16
Anna: Are there any other thoughts or things that you'd want to share with people about storytelling, about connection, about how like storytelling and community kind of intersect?
44:24
Anna: I mean, big question.
44:25
Anna: Am I right?
44:26
Anna: It is a big question.
44:28
Anna: Stories are what make us human.
44:30
Anna: That's some throwback to my to Dr.
44:32
Anna: Anna and building on a body of research that we make sense of the world by the stories we tell about it, and that is for good and for bad.
44:40
Anna: That is something I'm always trying to be attuned to, is like what are the stories that I'm telling that are helping me, and what are the stories that I'm telling that are maybe hurting me?
44:51
Anna: And how can I notice them?
44:54
Anna: They're central.
44:55
Katelyn: Just in case, Anna, if humans want to connect with you in any way, shape, or form, if they want to talk to you more about your story, where can they find you?
45:02
Anna: You can find me on Instagram at anna_grace_zimmerman.
45:08
Anna: Do you have show notes?
45:09
Anna: Are you gonna like drop my - no?
45:12
Katelyn: Okay, I will link it in the show notes.
45:13
Anna: I've listened to enough podcasts.
45:15
Anna: I'm like, find it in the show notes.
45:17
Anna: Okay.
45:19
Katelyn: Do you want me to ask you again so you can say that?
45:20
Katelyn: Or this is us, though.
45:21
Katelyn: This is us.
45:22
Katelyn: That's why they made the TV show.
45:24
Katelyn: Because this is us.
45:27
Anna: You can also find me on LinkedIn.
45:28
Anna: So what's whatever your flavor is, like I'm Anna Zimmerman on LinkedIn.
45:34
Anna: And you could also, you know, follow, follow me on Instagram, silly over there, but so sharing good memes and pics of fam.
45:44
Katelyn: Oh my gosh, I love it so much.
45:46
Katelyn: Anna, thank you so much for your time today.
45:49
Anna: Thank you.
45:50
Anna: It's so fun.
45:50
Katelyn: Crafted Connections is lovingly produced by Calhoun Creative Consulting, a strategic storytelling firm dedicated to helping people and brands tell their stories in a way that resonates.
46:04
Katelyn: If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and connect with us on Instagram at Crafted Connections Pod.
46:11
Katelyn: Keep creating, keep connecting, until we meet again.