Latest / The Post-Separation Abuse Podcast / 44. Part 4 - Post-Separation Abuse Unpacked: Isolation

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44. Part 4 - Post-Separation Abuse Unpacked: Isolation · The Post-Separation Abuse Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi, thanks for joining me on another episode of the Post-Separation Abuse Podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: This episode is part four of Post-Separation Abuse Unpacked.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: The form of post-separation abuse that we'll be unpacking today is isolation.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Danielle Black and I'm the coach you need if you're dealing with post-separation abuse.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: I help you make sense of ongoing abusive behaviour after separation and help you take back your power and control.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Let's go.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: You thought you knew, but you didn't have a clue.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Isolation can take a variety of different forms.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: It can include convincing friends, family, new partners and others of their narrative that they are the victim and encouraging those people to join in the campaign against you.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Controlling abusers can attempt to gain and maintain the support and the cooperation of your friends and family.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Your former partner might also try to maintain control over your children's social activities and social interactions, for example, sporting activities after school, and will often do what they can to try and exclude you or to speak with other parents who are at those events.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: The coach, anyone and everyone to who they can talk to about their particular narrative and paint you in a negative light.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: It's all about controlling the story, controlling the narrative, controlling the way that they're viewed and controlling the way that you are viewed.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Controlling abusers will attempt to discredit you and your reputation at every opportunity with other people in the community.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: So, as we just mentioned, that can be with coaches, with other parents at sporting activities, but it can also be with school staff, at your children's schools, with other parents at the school.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: So the parents of your children's friends, neighbours, doctors, people in the business community, your children's psychologist or therapist Really, no one is off limits.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Controlling abusers will lie maliciously about you and will play the innocent victim, despite even severe allegations of abuse and intervention orders against them.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: As most of my listeners will be aware, many abusers can be very charming.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Many abusers don't behave in an overtly abusive way to other people.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: This is one of the key ways that we can identify whether or not someone has traits consistent with one or more personality disorders.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: People with personality disorders or traits consistent with a personality disorder tend to behave in a problematic way to a whole range of other people.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: There are other people that they have interactions with that think that there is just something not quite right about them.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Non-disordered abusers, on the other hand, easily maintain other interactions with outsiders that are not problematic.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: They maintain friendships with other people.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: They behave appropriately at work and in other settings, keeping the controlling abuse for intimate partners, their children, sometimes also parents and family members.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Most controlling abusers do not have a personality disorder, but all abusers are very entitled and believe that they have a right to behave the way that they behave.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I think this entitlement is mislabeled as narcissism.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Now, that's not to say that there can't be narcissism in an abuser who is not personality disordered, because narcissism exists on a spectrum.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Everyone has a degree of narcissism.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: On the lower levels it's just having what we would consider to be normal self-confidence.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: It's when things get down the more extreme level that it's a problem.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: But again, I think sometimes what is being referred to as narcissism is in fact reality a sense of entitlement, and it's that entitlement that is underpinning so much of the behavior of non-disordered controlling abusers.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: When you have a man who feels entitled to behave a particular way and you combine that with problematic views, values, beliefs, attitudes about women, so misogynistic and sexist values, attitudes and beliefs, those values, attitudes and beliefs, combined with that entitlement, is what leads to controlling behaviours and to abuse in other forms.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Non-disordered abusers can be very convincing, can be very charming, because the reality is that probably no one else has ever seen any form of abuse, control or aggression.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Non-disordered abusers can maintain relatively healthy friendships with other people.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: The same is not true for personality disordered abusers, and I think this is something that we'll have to unpack in another episode.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: But I think it's something important to unpack when we're talking about this isolation piece of post-separation abuse, because I think it helps to explain why some people, why some professionals, sometimes buy in to the narrative of the abuser.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, there is a persistent belief in the community that we can tell who the controlling men are just by looking at them, that we can tell who the abusive men are just by looking at them, that we can tell who the abusive men are just by looking at them, that if someone hasn't been controlling or abusive to us, that that must mean that they're not a controlling or abusive person.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: And that's just simply not true.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Controlling and abusive men will lie and deny allegations of family violence, post-separation abuse or child abuse.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: In fact, it's also a very common and predictable tactic that when a man has been accused of controlling behaviors or other abusive behaviors, that that man then accuses the other parent of manipulation, then accuses the other parent of manipulation, of attempting to alienate the children from him, and helping my clients to refute these false allegations from their former partners does make up a fairly significant part of the work that I do.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Controlling men abusive men also prevent communication between new partners and the other parent, even though open communication would be beneficial for the children.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: But the reality is controlling abusers can't risk the new partner seeing through the lies that have been told about you.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Your controlling ex-partner will likely double down on efforts to discourage communication between you and the new partner again, because he simply cannot risk the new partner questioning his narrative about you and the facts of your past and present relationship.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: It's not uncommon for controlling abusers to claim that you, their ex-partner, wants to get back with them and also to lie about the true reality of the breakup.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: It will be common for your ex to describe you as being crazy, a liar or an unfit mother.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Commonly, new partners of controlling men may have no idea how often that your former partner is actually contacting you.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: There's a wall of secrecy around all of this and the controlling person can be unrelentingly focused on you, their ex-partner, to the point of stalking and regular harassment, and their new partner may be completely unaware.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Make no mistake, your ex has not changed.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: It's all smoke and mirrors.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: You know the truth.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: Hold on to that and focus on yourself and your children.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Linked in with isolation post separation is that during the relationship, it's also common for controlling and abusive men to make spending time with friends or family hard for you.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: For example, they might refuse to come with you when you're visiting family, or they might be emotionally needy in your absence with text messages or phone calls, or they might insist on coming with you and refusing to give you any time alone with friends or family.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: They might accuse you of cheating or of putting others first when you're wanting to spend time with friends or family, and all of this behavior is to train you to isolate yourself because of the drama that they create whenever you want to spend time with other people.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: This is controlling behavior.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: This is abuse.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: As a society, we really need to do better at supporting women who disclose controlling behaviors from former partners and other forms of abusive behavior from former partners.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: There are far too many people in the community who are prepared to call a woman a liar when she has disclosed abuse.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: And again, whether you're a neighbour, whether you're a co-worker, whether you're a new partner of a man who's been accused of controlling behavior or another form of abusive behavior, it's important to note that just because that behavior might not yet have been exerted toward you, that does not mean that that man has not been controlling or abusive to a former partner, to children or to other family members.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: The likelihood is that what has been said about him is true.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Statistically speaking, that is most likely to be the outcome.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Research in this area highlights that the vast majority of women disclosing abuse, the vast majority of children disclosing abuse, are telling the truth.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Yet there are so many people in our community who call women and children liars when they disclose abuse.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: We really shouldn't be surprised that men's use of violence has reached the epidemic levels that it has, because as a community, we have created a perfect breeding ground for them, because they are not being held to account.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: They simply just have to say that it's not true, that it's all lies, that she's a crazy bitch who's just got it in for him, and apparently he gets believed and the woman or the child disclosing abusive behavior perpetrated by him is considered a liar or his actions are minimised.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Oh well, there's two sides to every story.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: That's one that was actually said to me by a former partner of my ex Something that has really stuck with me that as far as she was concerned, there was my ex's version of events, there was my version of events and that somewhere in the middle there was the truth.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: I didn't appreciate her comment back then and more than a decade later, it still sticks with me, I think, because it so accurately paints that picture of what so many victim survivors are dealing with, that disclosing abuse is treated as a he said, she said situation, because very rarely is there proof, very rarely are there eyewitnesses other than kids.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: It's all too easy to dismiss it, to minimize it, and that's why we've got the problem that we've got.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Until men are being held accountable by everyone in the community, I don't think we're going to see a significant reduction in men's use of control, in men's use of abuse, whether we're talking during a relationship or post-separation.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: I just can't see how we're ever going to get a significant reduction when there are so many people in the community who are prepared to make excuses and who are prepared to point fingers at victim survivors and call them liars.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: And this is what isolation is it's feeling that no one believes you or, if they do believe you.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: They're just not prepared to experience any discomfort themselves by supporting you.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: That's a huge reason why I do the work that I do, because I know what it's like to feel alone.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: I know what it's like to have people side with a narrative from a controlling, abusive person in which he paints himself as the victim.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: I know what that's like.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I know what it's like to have other people in the community believe that narrative, and it's hard.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: The group membership that I created for my clients is called Stronger, braver Together, because we are stronger and braver when we're together and it's about finding that togetherness where you feel safe, where you are believed.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: That is so incredibly important on this journey for both you and for your children.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: We need to get to a point in our community where, even if a man has not been abusive toward us, we can acknowledge that he has been abusive toward someone else, we can call out that behavior, we can support that woman and her children.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: And you know what?
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: If there's no evidence, if there's no proof, how about we just start by giving the benefit of the doubt to the woman who, again, statistically, is most likely to be the one telling the truth?
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Let's not give the benefit of the doubt to the person who's most likely the perpetrator.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: That, to me, just seems like common sense.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: If you're not sure what to believe, choose the woman.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: It's not rocket science.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: It's not women that are murdering men every four days.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Women's behavior is not the problem.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: The problem is with entitled men who believe that they have a right to use controlling behaviours and to exert other forms of violence over women and children.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: That's the problem.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: If you're going to believe someone, believe her.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: And if that leaves you feeling uncomfortable, sit with that discomfort and imagine how fucking unbearable it feels for her.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Feel a little bit of discomfort knowing that you're helping her to not feel quite so isolated.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Experience a little bit of discomfort yourself in supporting someone who's disclosed abuse in holding a man accountable.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: Experience a little bit of that discomfort knowing that that is barely even the tip of the iceberg compared to what she's dealing with right now.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Seriously, experiencing a little bit of discomfort is the least you can do.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: And to anyone who says that they don't want to pick a side, that they just want to be supportive for both people, well, when a woman has disclosed controlling behaviours, abusive behaviours, not picking a side is absolutely fucking picking a side.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: You are picking the side of the abuser.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: You are not holding them to account, and it's got nothing to do with wanting to be supportive for both people.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: It's got to do with you not wanting to feel anything remotely uncomfortable For those of you who are holding perpetrators accountable.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: We need more allies like you.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: We need more allies and advocates for victim survivors, more than I can put into words.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Only when abusive behavior, controlling behavior, men's entitled use of those things, only when those things become so incredibly socially unacceptable will there be an incentive to change.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: Only when men know that other people are not going to buy in to his victim narrative or his justifications or his just flat-out denials or his accusations that she's crazy or has mental health issues or is an unfit mother, only when men realize this, only when this becomes a thing, will we really start to shift what's happening in our society.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Hand in hand with this is children not being ordered to spend any significant time with controlling fathers.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: These behaviours are learned.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: They are learned from society and from our families of origin.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: If we want to put a stop to intergenerational family violence, to intergenerational men's violence, we need to ensure that entitled, controlling, abusive men are not having any significant time with children, and I know that this is a controversial topic.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: I get it, but we really have to start questioning the value of a controlling father in his child's life.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: If we're truly serious about putting a stop to men's use of violence, if we truly want to put a stop to intimate partner violence, to family violence, to post-separation abuse, we seriously have to do something about protecting children from being exposed to these values, attitudes and beliefs, because this stuff doesn't end just because the relationship between two parents ends Absolutely not.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: A man does not magically change his values, attitudes and beliefs about women and relationships just because one relationship ends.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: These values, attitudes and beliefs form part of this man's personality.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Men's behavior change programs have notoriously low success levels.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: This is a really hard conversation, basically saying that, look, controlling men, abusive men, just really should not be spending any significant time with kids.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I know that that's a hard call to make.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Or is it really Like, if we're serious about protecting kids and if we're serious about wanting to change men's use of violence, men's entitlement to use forms of controlling behavior, abusive behavior, if we're wanting to change that, doesn't it just make sense that we would prevent them from being able to expose children to those behaviors to any significant degree.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: To me that just kind of seems like a bit of a no-brainer.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: And it's all relevant to the isolation piece.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: All of it's relevant Because at the moment, so much of the conversation is about women, it's about violence against women and children, instead of being focused on men's use of violence.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: You know, so much of the focus in support is about helping women to leave an abusive relationship.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Well, what if she wants to stay where she is and wants him to leave?
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Again, all of the emphasis is put on her, on what she needs to do, rather than on the perpetrator, rather than on how he's being held accountable.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Because I can tell you what happens in these situations where she manages to leave.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: I've got a number of clients who are living with friends or family members while their former partners are staying in the family home.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: She's having to try and set up her life elsewhere with kids, and his life has been able to go on relatively unchanged, except for the fact that he's not happy that she's left and is disclosing the way that he's been behaving.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: And then, when she has safety, concerns about the children in his care and rightly so rightly questions his parenting capacity because he's largely been a very disinterested parent who has done very little of the day-to-day heavy lifting of parenting.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: So when she's not comfortable with him spending any significant amount of time alone with the children, he starts court proceedings.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: He wants equal, shared care and she has to communicate with him because that's an expectation where co-parenting is concerned.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: And the children are forced to spend time in his care and they're being continually exposed to his controlling and abusive behaviour, his inappropriate parenting and the fact that he feels entitled to basically just behave however the hell he likes.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: This is a big problem.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: It's not going away anytime soon.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: It is very, very nuanced and it is going to take a lot of change in so many different areas to make even the smallest dint.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: One of the most important things we can do is to help ensure that victim survivors, that anyone who discloses abuse, no longer feels alone and isolated, no longer feels as though everyone in the community is just going to believe his victim narrative because oh, he's just such a top bloke and he's never been abusive to me, so she must be a crazy lying bitch, or words to that effect.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: That has to stop.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: That has to stop.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: The isolation has to stop.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: We've all got a part to play, and it starts with believing her and supporting her.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: I'll talk to you soon.