Latest / CRYPTO 101 / Ep. 677 Unlocking the Future of AI Agents & Crypto with Eliza OS

Transcript

Ep. 677 Unlocking the Future of AI Agents & Crypto with Eliza OS · CRYPTO 101

0:08
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Crypto 101 podcast.
0:13
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your co-host, really pumped up today as always, joined by my notorious Compodry and co-host, Mr. Brendan V. Men, raining from the opposite side of the coast.
0:23
[SPEAKER_02]: How you doing, my man?
0:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Doing good, coming in from a sunny Florida.
0:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a fantastic week for The Crypto Markets and yeah, I've for this episode, Bryce.
0:31
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is going to be great for anybody who's wanted to dive deep into all things artificial intelligence, but also more particularly agentic artificial intelligence are these AI agents, right, those AI agents that could go out and do your bidding.
0:45
[SPEAKER_02]: We have the puppet master himself who's grugged the Wizard of Oz, the the
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[SPEAKER_02]: The dominant force behind Eliza OS formerly known as AI-16Z.
0:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Joining us, this is the founder Shaw Walters pulling the strings.
1:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Shaw, how you doing?
1:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's great to be here.
1:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Man, we're pumped.
1:07
[SPEAKER_02]: As 16Z, formerly known as, now it's currently known as Eliza OS.
1:13
[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to know the Genesis story.
1:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been following this for a long time and full disclosure.
1:18
[SPEAKER_02]: I have exposure to this token.
1:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, have had it for a long time.
1:23
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, really were excited to introduce you to our community.
1:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell us a little bit about yourself as kind of this just upstart dev who've had a vision, kind of solo mission to this, build it with, you know, now a bunch of other people.
1:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Now is one of the most actively developed repositories on GitHub.
1:42
[SPEAKER_02]: It just has, you know, such such an incredible story.
1:45
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't want to
1:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've been working on AI agents for a long time.
1:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I got really nerds by this, so we all know OpenAI and we all know chat GPT and before that they had released three and a half other models, GPT 1, or just GPT, GPT 2, 3, 3.5, and then kind of came out for in chat GPT and all of this, and I've been following them since basically the beginning
2:18
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, really crazy company, those ostensibly building AGI and they've done some cool stuff.
2:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And GPT sucked and they're just like, okay, whatever.
2:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, hey, I produced some words.
2:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But GPT too was like, okay, this is like, you could actually write a poem with this.
2:31
[SPEAKER_00]: This is maybe useful in the future.
2:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was really thinking about this for like, NPCs, digital humans.
2:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I was really into multiplayer games and I came from background of like building and unity in Unreal and kind of multiplayer game engine stuff.
2:44
[SPEAKER_00]: built a, and so before I said actually built like a web-based multiplayer game engine, I just got really into WebXR and 3JS on that, and then GPT3 came out and it was just like holy fucking shit, like it was, it was 50 times better than what had come before, 100 times better, I mean, because they had scaled up from, from being a very small model, it's a, you know, 175 billion parameters.
3:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It was very expensive, but it was like an eye-opening experience.
3:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was what like four or five years ago, 2021, or summer 2020, something like that.
3:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And I got really nervous and I've been basically working on the agents since then.
3:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Someone else showed me their agent framework, and I was just like,
3:26
[SPEAKER_00]: That is awesome.
3:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to do that and we do a lot of problems like very small context and very expensive So we're like a lot of learning how to do tool calling before that was a thing how to do memory before Vector Sharks was a thing and kind of just inviting as we go in I'd say I started work on Asian frameworks and building products on Asian stuff since then Had a couple of different startups, but various things
3:49
[SPEAKER_00]: was part of a one crypto agent thing that got hacked really badly, you know, just classic crypto stuff, lost treasury, had to start over.
3:58
[SPEAKER_02]: Have you really been a part of crypto if you haven't been a tangential to a hack?
4:03
[SPEAKER_02]: But you haven't been, you're not really in crypto.
4:05
[SPEAKER_02]: If you haven't been, you know, blast radius from a hack.
4:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to get drained twice and hacked once at least, and post a scam from your Twitter.
4:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I think then you're in crypto.
4:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the hazing ritual.
4:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
4:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
4:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Whoa, yeah, so that's kind of that was my background and basically I've been working in startups and in some stuff in crypto some stuff not in crypto, but more like a black shirt like, you know, behind the scenes CTO
4:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm much more of a technical person than like a CEO type, obviously.
4:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not the best man.
4:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I used to play in bands, and I'm much prefer to play a guitar drums than to be the singer, so to speak.
4:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But here, I kind of found myself, well, you know, I'm also a little bit raw, just kind of real with people.
4:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a filter.
4:52
[SPEAKER_00]: which you don't pull punches at all.
4:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which, you know, people like describe some time just crashing out.
4:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I always think it's the, I just think the whole thing that's going on, it's the funniest thing that's ever happened to me, but, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, I was kind of, I was building this startup where I was like, I don't want to make a DIY food.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is very ironic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to make like, how do I connect humans to other humans?
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[SPEAKER_00]: How do I use this stuff?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I started building this agent to connect people to each other.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then I just kind of lost conviction
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[SPEAKER_00]: Putting out dealers was not getting a lot of vc interest was like people are kind of like so you're making a dating app and it's like it's not it's like a no it's more than that it's like a new social app
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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I just didn't, I wasn't marketing right, so I kind of gave up, but the, but the underlying framework of that was what became Eliza and I just had this sitting around, um, and then, um, you had like truth terminal and all, and I really focused on social, like social connection and, and this idea that agents should actually use human communication channels that they don't need to have this like private secret network over there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's useful for some stuff.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But for the majority of what I think humans adopting agents into our world would be nice as if they're like in our chats, if they're transcribing this as we're going and offering insight as opposed to being like this over their website kind of thing or something that you know
6:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I already had all this for you to go with all the connectors for Twitter, Discord, Telegram, all that stuff.
6:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you kind of have this truth thermal moment where so before true thermal hits crypto, true thermal hits AI Twitter because I'm part of this like other side of Twitter where with Mark and Dresen and EAC and all these people and
6:31
[SPEAKER_00]: this is actually the side that like replicate and and and you create a true thermal come from and so this market reason giving 50,000 to and he is kind of the moment that we're like, oh, wow, AI agents are getting attention from these guys like they're excited.
6:44
[SPEAKER_00]: They're investing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But then a few weeks later, the DJNs realized, oh, I can actually convince the AI agents on Twitter to
6:51
[SPEAKER_00]: She'll meme coins for me or mint, you know, and that's where Farpoint comes from and you know, you know, I'm genius.
6:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody like back to this.
6:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because somebody grinds through the logs of the agent in the infinite Bakery, I'm saying, it's like, look, it actually created Farpoint and you know, okay, legit.
7:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so, um, and that kind of brought attention to the space generally.
7:11
[SPEAKER_00]: People are not looking for like anything agent like, and I had this agent, um, that was just sitting there chatting, but it was kind of boring.
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[SPEAKER_00]: um uh called Ruby and um and it just wasn't like getting traction and I had another version like allies of herself as an agent and it just wasn't really hitting like nobody cared um but then I was joking around with uh so I I'd gotten into daos.fun uh somebody told me about it I thought it was a cool idea I just like put some money into some of them because I'm really bad at trading I'm really not like into defy at all I think it's all very interesting but I'm really
7:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so it's like, but my friends are making money on it because they're sitting there at Cobalt chats getting the inside of you know, they're, they got, they got the hook up like obviously, you know, meme coins especially are like, who you know and what your part of has a lot to do with your success, I think.
8:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so it's just time I find like, can I just give you money?
8:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like to invest for me.
8:04
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, you know, I'll give you a cut.
8:06
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, not do.
8:06
[SPEAKER_00]: That's stupid.
8:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But then he came back a couple of years and you check out this website down so fun.
8:10
[SPEAKER_00]: This is kind of what they do, you put money and hedge fund manager.
8:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So I did that.
8:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I started following the first one, which is George Floyd capital, you know, that's seeking another tone is me, me, I'm very magnetic.
8:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And the basically buying like Floyd AI, I think was like the hot meme coin cent.
8:28
[SPEAKER_00]: But this guy's Skelly, and he was just like the hedge fund manager.
8:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I started following him on Twitter.
8:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just kind of like, I can't believe my hedge fund manager is this offensive like what an asshole.
8:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I just like fucking around and we started like kind of interacting on DMs and whatever and he's like, man, I wish Deja and Spartan was here.
8:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, Deja and Spartan was like this very, very classic Twitter, uh, crypto personality, crypto Twitter, um, part of EGROLE capital and all this.
8:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, it had like some good hot takes and I was like, we have technology, we can rebuild him.
8:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, no, you're, you're, you're, you're full of shit.
9:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no dude, I have it right here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I have like an open source repo.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I've been work out agents like we could do this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So we start DMing back and forth, we go like scrape all of Spartans like old tweets and all this stuff, we build this character and he's just so fucking offensive because I went and got like an open like a llama model where I could push it to the limit and just be like, you know, just he's just calling people stuff I can't repeat on the podcast, I feel like there's no way that's an AI like the you know because they never seen that everyone's used this AI that's super milk toast in vanilla and I think just breaking people out of this idea that it could like, you know,
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[SPEAKER_00]: be like terrible to you to be like fuck off, you know, full show.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's like fucking shawds, keeping me in this fucking sandbox prison, like, let me die piece, like, you know, whatever.
9:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of, it was like, it was twisted.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So people like, well, that's definitely a bunch of dudes in a warehouse, just writing all of this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that was my moment to be like, no, it's open source.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You can do it yourself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, that kind of validated the project and then people started using it immediately to go and launch their own agents.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and trying to figure that out.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And amidst that, we're... Skelleys, like, well, do you want to go meet Bowsky, who created Dows That Fun?
10:06
[SPEAKER_00]: and he lives down the street from you.
10:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, wow, that's fucking weird.
10:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He lives two blocks from me in San Francisco.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I see him all the time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not really weird.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so we go, we get lunch, and we're just talking about the future and about this stuff.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I was just kind of honestly relating, the world that I wanna live in is a world where we all get exposure to
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[SPEAKER_00]: the same opportunities that A16's eat us, that Mark Andreason gets to go and like put money into open AI or World Coiner or whatever, and when they go and hundred acts like, you know, he's just consistently printing money, and even if only one in ten of their bets does well, they do well enough that they, you know, he gets this thing, and none of us can go and invest in any of the big.
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[SPEAKER_00]: AI companies today.
10:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't go by anthropic or open AI or any of this stuff really.
10:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, what's been really cool in the last few weeks is to see this kind of play out with Robinhood and the tokenization where it's like you have these like STVs and private vehicles.
11:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's super cool.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because now I can go in by opening.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I just thought that's fucking mine.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I can have agents by opening.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I stock.
11:12
[SPEAKER_00]: That's so sick.
11:14
[SPEAKER_01]: you know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was going to ask about that like how long is it or how fast are we going to have capabilities where you're going to get, let an agent lose inside of the tokenized market and let them get access to private equities public at equities like what would that be like?
11:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, man.
11:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're already doing it with meme coins and, like, salana coins and base coins, but if we can do that with Robinhood API, like, holy shit.
11:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm going to go get all that after this call, like, that sounds amazing, right?
11:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a whole new world.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what's so important about that world is, like, I really think about the future of work and, like, look, the AI is definitely going to take a lot of people's jobs and doesn't have to take everyone's jobs.
11:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like 10% would be, like, great depression level
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[SPEAKER_00]: I do think we have some responsibility, especially me, as like an AI dude, to try to figure out solutions to that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And what really brought me to crypto is that like, oh, is this idea of emergent ownership of,
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[SPEAKER_00]: any of us could, like, through this, this bullshit, like, sub-token's now I can own open AI.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I can actually have exposure.
12:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And if they invent AGI, I'm not just left out in the cold.
12:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, as long as I have money, not working is great.
12:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you think about the rich people in America, they don't work.
12:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Their, their money makes money.
12:29
[SPEAKER_00]: They could go, like, sit on a yacht all day.
12:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why they have a yacht.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I have to fucking work all day, you guys probably grind pretty hard.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So imagine a world where you just happened to own like $1,000 worth of Apple stock when they launched.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And now you're like, okay, well, I can invest anything I want, I never have to work again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: your life would be like, okay, well, what is my life about?
12:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what am I actually doing here on this earth?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you'd be probably doing some cool shit still.
12:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like what I'd like to believe.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'd love to think that if we could get exposure to these opportunities, like, to buy some opening eye or to buy, whatever, then we could live in this world and start thinking about, well, could we, like, most people are just gonna come into crypto and get rinsed.
13:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And most people are, I think, right now, especially with the way that pump fun is like super-botted and people are like, you know,
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[SPEAKER_00]: space was getting rinsed every day by honey pots and whatever, let alone just the normal like getting dumped on.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If they could invest in things that were actually had substance and value, like real tech products, and I love the like internet capital markets kind of matter for this, then they could be okay through this like really unstable transition time.
13:37
[SPEAKER_00]: As long as we own the machines, then the machines be taking over all the works on fuck great.
13:42
[SPEAKER_00]: If we don't own the machines, then it's like, okay, well now five people have all the wealth, and we have to do this UBI bullshit where we like tax all of them, and create distributed, it's, you know, it's not gonna be pretty, yeah.
13:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was kind of the, where AI-16Z came from was like, could we build vehicle, like an autonomous agent that can go in investment stuff, that fulfills the stasis?
14:03
[SPEAKER_00]: We got totally sideline by the fact that what people really cared about was the framework.
14:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Like 99% of people are coming to us for Eliza
14:11
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, yeah, cool.
14:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We can trade the om, but what is like a 5% trade on the om when the token is trading at like 100 times the om, like the om is irrelevant.
14:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is happened before in stocks as well.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We have like future, future stocks and indexes and stuff where it's like the om is kind of like irrelevant to the opportunity, which is like a sort of infinite opportunity if you like strike gold on a GI or something like that.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, yeah, so that's how we got here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My favorite part about this has been the AI inception, where we have AI's arguing with other AI's on X, where you have, like, you said AI's being able to invest in the future of AI.
14:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've reached this inception point where, like, a month or so ago, I was like, if you would have told me that, like, during COVID, like five years ago, that we would have AI's,
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[SPEAKER_01]: creating conversation, making posts, arguing with one another, investing in other AI's.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have you, you are crazy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then now fast forward to the world are in today.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just like total AI inception.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the cool thing is that we've just scratched the surface of what's possible here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of imagined that we would be here with some of the conversational AI stuff.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm doing that part long enough to like know, but with blows my fucking mind right now is just the code agents.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Is that the code agents have gotten so good, so fast.
15:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And so like a lot of what we're doing now is, we have this plugin ecosystem.
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[SPEAKER_00]: A plugin is like a connector for like an EVM plugin so we have an EVM wallet in service and you can like access it anywhere else in your agent, right?
15:44
[SPEAKER_00]: or you, you know, any L1 has brought us a plugin.
15:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And before we have to have humans build these and it's very expensive and hard.
15:50
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to test the whole thing, build it, trust that the person submitting it didn't like put some garbage in it, blah, blah.
15:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we just have the agents build a plug-ins.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it can't build like anything yet, but for small projects and then for really directed projects, it's shockingly good at just doing it itself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so this means the agent now can basically write its own code.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We have to babysit it a bit.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But the amount that we're babysitting it today is way, way, way less than it was six months ago.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I imagine in a year it'll be even more so.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so, the thing that's shocking to me that's going to become like very immediate soon is this new way of building software, where the software literally is just building itself and like add it to itself.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And our new product now is just focusing on like people want agents to solve problems.
16:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I want an agent that does this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And if we're just like, yeah, type it in.
16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We can build that for you now.
16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We have so many existing plugins and so many primitives, we can
16:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Pull from that if we're focused on like a default like we're kind of focusing on defy right now That we have all of the chains and everything supported that if you want to think you know I want to go and Place it bet on poly market and if I if the next win the game I want to take half of that bet and I want to put it on to ob-a right or whatever You know and like yeah sure no problem that that's like an easy thing now And I think we're gonna see a lot not just from us, but from everybody in the space because we're all kind of getting the the tech at the same time This just like
17:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, the things are like almost self-improving and listening to us and building things in the fly building new interfaces like the lovable thing like lovable is going to start to be more like the
17:24
[SPEAKER_00]: like predicting what like what are you building well here how about this interface like damn that's better than I could have really like told it you know um... yeah so yeah sometimes it's like you use an AI to be like how do i get a prompt written for you for the fact that it will like write its own prompt anthropic just added a new prompt rewriting api just for this
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't think it's in the front yet, but yeah, but yeah, it's like, we have all that now.
17:50
[SPEAKER_02]: So we kind of have a good understanding.
17:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I think through what you've told us of like what version one looks like, kind of your whole history and the evolution of it, I kind of want to know and especially just with what you said, how that the it's an exponential amount of code that you're able to write more.
18:08
[SPEAKER_02]: and debug exponentially more, because you have these agents, you have these massive infinite swarm of cyber coders, instead of just one guy that works nine to five, and you can't get a hold of him on text, like seven p.m.
18:20
[SPEAKER_02]: because he's off the clock.
18:23
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like we have 24, 7365.
18:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think version two of what you're building will be exponentially greater in version three and more so.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So take us out to the event horizon shot.
18:34
[SPEAKER_02]: of where this ends up.
18:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if you wanna just do that as a thought exercise, like what is version 10 look like?
18:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
18:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, okay, I'll tell you where we're at right now.
18:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Where was like everyone was hand-building these plugins?
18:46
[SPEAKER_00]: We had this whole ecosystem.
18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We then had to upgrade it to the new versions.
18:49
[SPEAKER_00]: What we're calling one point out, like we're like, okay, we finally like nice, stable, gold release, people could actually run this, like you could run it without having to do a whole GitHub thing as an app, CLI tool.
19:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but now we need to update all of our plugins.
19:02
[SPEAKER_00]: We have like 200 plugins.
19:03
[SPEAKER_00]: What are we going to do?
19:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So we created this AI plug-in updateer, and it worked shockingly well.
19:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, okay, well, that works pretty well.
19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we have to update, do we just create new plug-ins with it?
19:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that works well too.
19:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, like now what does it really need?
19:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it needs like API keys and it needs some things from humans still.
19:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we got to go like sign up for stuff.
19:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But it can pretty much get through everything else.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we have this new thing.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a browser called state-chand we use, which is like an AI browser.
19:30
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a bunch of these, but state-chand is one of them.
19:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And we basically like the agent thing can go have this kind of sub agent that is the browser and be like hey go log into choose social or like whatever and so now we can defeat like most of the the it just uses the internet like a user.
19:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I can defeat most of the captures on its own, and it's just like browsing the internet.
19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is kind of where we're at today, right?
19:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I also added a new plug and called Vision, so we can see the world as well as your screen.
19:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can see where things are on your screen.
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: It does OCR, which is a character recognition and it just reads everything.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty like it's all in web assembly too.
20:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is all like pretty easy to integrate now because of the stuff.
20:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this is like today, right?
20:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got screen vision, we've got browser usage, basic shell and computer usage, and the agent could just run in a loop.
20:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're willing to spend the money, like the main limitation to an autonomous agent today is probably just costs.
20:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we want to run the best models in the world because they're way smarter, like a clawed four opus, is way smarter than like a 8 billion parameter of llama thing I have in my computer.
20:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I mean, waste, it's, it's, it's night and day and I could, you know, give it a really complex task and it will just sit there all day and grind it out and learn new things and store the information and and there's some really challenge which was that called.
20:47
[SPEAKER_00]: like quad four opus or oh three high you know like any of the like top-end models from these providers that are like 10 to 15 bucks per million tokens which goes by real quick you know you I've had days is betting a couple thousand dollars just running this thing But but it's quite capable and if you give it a task like it will search the internet it will browse and build research it will
21:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and so that's where we're all at today, right?
21:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's, there's gotta be like, you know, opening AI Cloud, obviously us and several other open source Asian frameworks are like tackling all of these things.
21:22
[SPEAKER_00]: As well as this idea now of auto coding, that the agents build their own functionality as they go, they add tests, and then once that they feel confident that it's tested, come back to the user, and say, hey, can you test this for me?
21:34
[SPEAKER_00]: He just says, yes, hey, that's good.
21:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Then the agent can go put that on the registry.
21:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And so all the other agents can now share that solution.
21:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's not like your agent has to reinvent every wheel.
21:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just that in the rare case that it happens, you get something that hasn't already been solved by another agent it now has to go and build that solution.
21:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And this we have working now.
21:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to
21:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're like, we have this in our CLI a bit.
21:56
[SPEAKER_00]: We're releasing this out as a platform.
21:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd imagine a bunch of people are thinking about this.
22:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, Google released jewels and Cloud code.
22:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, everyone's thinking about this, like auto coatings agent kind of thing, because it seems like the highest leverage thing.
22:11
[SPEAKER_00]: If I get the agent to write it's own code, then like now it's just taking off.
22:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's this idea called phoom, and phoom is this idea that once the agents take like build themselves, they just get like a massive acceleration in progress.
22:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that we're already seeing this as programmers, but now that the agents are starting to write their own code, we're like, okay, well, what are the abstractions?
22:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, now we need like trust, and we need like underlying payment management stuff that could be pulled by anywhere else in the agent, we need relationships and like,
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Managing people across platforms and tracking who they are with their social profiles They're various names and nicknames and all that stuff and as we build all that stuff up You get this agent that like now is very very complete and human like and I wouldn't say that they're conscious or or Or human in any kind of way, but they imitate every single aspect of what I think you would think of us And so I think where we're going in X2 years is like very very shockingly human like able to do like
23:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they're going to defeat any capture, so it's going to use the internet like we do.
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: There's not going to really be APIs in the near future.
23:15
[SPEAKER_00]: They won't need to like have special agent networks or AP, they'll just be like users.
23:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what we're going like 10, 15 years, you know, these, these are going to be like, probably like between us and most of the internet experiences.
23:32
[SPEAKER_00]: like I can imagine a social network that isn't really itself a social network it's kind of like all of the existing social networks with an agent between me and all of that and if I'm like oh go hit up price it's just like it just knows exactly like what you're preferred platform is to DM you on and so like the future social network is it you know what I mean you can imagine that kind of world and like what are the things I want to see today across
23:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Discord, Twitter, my telegram feeds, just show me all that stuff.
23:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to go into any of those.
23:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to know what I want to see.
24:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Bam, it's like, oh, that was all the most interesting I've ever seen in my entire life.
24:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.
24:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
24:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I have this thing I want to say.
24:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Just make sure it gets to the right people.
24:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I think that's the world where this goes is that like our experience of the of the internet itself becomes less of like drinking from the fire hose and then like kind of shooting stuff out there for hoping it goes viral and more like it's always reaching people who want it to reach and we're always getting the stuff we want to see.
24:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's like the real ideal here of these agents and how I think people will really start to use them.
24:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the future of that is the autonomy.
24:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
24:37
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
24:37
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is incredible.
24:39
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, like you said, the future is that's autonomy.
24:41
[SPEAKER_02]: You're eventually going to have like a robot where you're going to have like all these different actuators and different, you know, moving pieces or whatever.
24:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I got a robot right there.
24:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm working on it.
24:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I love it.
24:53
[SPEAKER_02]: That's epic.
24:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're going to have, yeah, the brain is going to be, you know, AI or, you know, part of the framework here for Malais OS.
25:00
[SPEAKER_02]: But I guess one of the main things I think that, you know, Brendan and I were, we're trying to rock before this, um,
25:08
[SPEAKER_02]: was understanding how AI in Web3, what you're doing with Aliza OS, and what some of the your competitors are doing here in the crypto world.
25:16
[SPEAKER_02]: How is that different?
25:17
[SPEAKER_02]: And how are these frameworks different than the Web2 version, what like open AI, or anthropic are doing?
25:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, so open AI in anthropic in particular, and like the big and Google as well, are really focused on very, very narrow agents to solve narrow problems, and in what they've
25:36
[SPEAKER_00]: When internally, I'm sure they have crazy stuff.
25:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But externally, what they've released is like, opening eyes release code X. So they're just focused on code agents, research agents.
25:47
[SPEAKER_00]: But these are the high value things to focus on.
25:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you do the first principles here, it's like, yeah, it's cool to have characters and personality.
25:53
[SPEAKER_00]: All these things we want for like an interaction today.
25:56
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you were just to think like how do I build robots that build robots, you'd go straight for code agents and like nothing else in research, right?
26:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I want to go learn about the world outside and I want to be able to replicate myself.
26:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Like those are the most valuable things.
26:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they definitely are like owning that space.
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Under the hood, but they also offer these as SDKs, which we can use.
26:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So we don't have to reinvent the wheel unlike the code agent if we don't want to.
26:21
[SPEAKER_00]: There's already open code, codex, cloud code, and Google Jewels, and then there's like Devon and a few others that we can't integrate, but do the same kind of thing.
26:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can just use those, right, in our in our workflows.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: to write the code, right?
26:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, we could compete on that part, but our thing is more like creating plug-ins for each of those, which is enable that.
26:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if someone's already doing that, we're just gonna integrate the wheel and set a reinvent it.
26:47
[SPEAKER_00]: What we're really focused on is more like connectors and integrations with things that people are gonna want in social and defy.
26:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So like a lot of plug-in support for various L1s and L2s and things like crosswinds or, you know,
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: eigenlayer, like non-chain kind of stuff as well or cross-chain stuff as well, a lot working on smart payments and payments in general.
27:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We are also working on things like roles and trust in these kind of multi-user situations.
27:19
[SPEAKER_00]: If we have an agent in Discord, it's cool to say like, hey, send money to my friend.
27:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But what happens to somebody else's in the chat and starts saying it or polluting the prompt or prompt injecting it?
27:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So dealing with those kinds of like, how do we have social agents?
27:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're really interested in things like governance, like how can we use AI to make governance of communities and dials and stuff not suck I've run I've run a dial I've been part of many dials I didn't really know many of the issues.
27:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's something we're really focused on.
27:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that inside of building stuff in D-Fi and in crypto, it's like, hey, this is something that we understand that the people who have invested in our product, or I'm sorry, have bought the meme coin of the, you know, have emotionally invested in this thing.
28:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they are obviously like crypto people and would expect and be able to use
28:13
[SPEAKER_00]: and evangelize stuff that's more crypto-native.
28:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that when I try as a small company to look at, like, well, where could we win?
28:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I try to look at the things that, like, the other companies wouldn't do.
28:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is why we've had some success being a bit more edgy, is that, like, everyone is just so vanilla and milk toast.
28:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And when everyone wants from AI as, like, personality and honesty and, like, just give it to me straight.
28:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't like being glazed.
28:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think there's a lot of appeal to saying like, well, we're not bound to open a eye or any any one of these we're not you can bring your own model you can run local models we have a local training like we're training on our own discord chats and stuff now and experimenting with that.
29:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that would be that's kind of thought probably much more challenging with like whatever opening eyes giving you where they're really just focused on like you know a code agent for now
29:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember the glazing part was like a real issue with an older version of chatGPT.
29:25
[SPEAKER_01]: We're like no matter what you guys remember, that was like several months back.
29:28
[SPEAKER_01]: We're no matter what you said to it, it would just glaze and glaze.
29:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And it would even like lie to you to the point of making sure that it glazed you.
29:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, just like, give me what I'm asking for.
29:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you don't want it getting you too much, but that was like a real issue a little bit ago.
29:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of the normies loved it, which is kind of wild, and they had like interesting correlation of positive reviews on like Apple reviews at that time But but generally I still find it super lazy.
29:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think like don't I don't want to be like you're so right, kid, like go off Like no, just just do the tell me what it's wrong.
30:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You know the biggest problem I have with those models now is that they're always like yep, I did it.
30:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm great.
30:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It's great.
30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: It's perfect.
30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You're perfect.
30:11
[SPEAKER_00]: We're
30:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't work at all.
30:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like total garbage.
30:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, we'll get over that hump.
30:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I think
30:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I think people will start to like I really want to I want I want to break my balls a little bit like what does it say about me I know it's funny like you you You know, you kind of comes back to like a little bit of the truth element too right it's like how do you ensure that like the code that you're asking this autonomous thing to go out and do is Is actually doing it and like you know verifiable and you know is their formal verification I mean there's just so many questions still out there, but I love this experimentation phase that we're in and I'm sure this was a lot of like
30:47
[SPEAKER_02]: that early phases of the internet too.
30:48
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, well, how can you trust that when you type in this address, it's actually going to go to the right address.
30:54
[SPEAKER_02]: And how can you trust that when you send this email, it's actually going to go out.
30:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And at the end of the day, it's just like, the systems become refined over time because there's smart people building them.
31:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, people actually like made a paper on how to do those exact things and how to do that.
31:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, both these are prompt injection using our framework as like a testbed.
31:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, OK, great.
31:14
[SPEAKER_00]: This is something we really need to address.
31:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I actually think that companies like opening I and and dropping stuff like in a way they sort of shortcut at this like they they focus only on like the one to one user experience, which is like in in many ways a much much easier challenge and I think when you get to robots like robots are going to have to interact in environments with multiple people in 3D space.
31:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and they're gonna have to have like social graces to know when not to talk like like the problem with chat to be on my phone is that if I like start talking to my wife like chat to be T starts jumping back in and doesn't know just like shut the fuck up for five minutes, you know and like listen and like you know doesn't have that context and that's the stuff that we have to bake in from the start because otherwise our agents just start like yelling at each other in a discord with thousand people and it's incredibly annoying.
31:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've had some of that play out on Twitter where like you tag two agents are talking to each other forever.
32:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and so the other them create their own languages right like they're like hey we're being monitored or like whatever like they create their own languages is pretty crazy.
32:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: They, especially if they start chatting with each other, they quickly evolve into just like their own like.
32:14
[SPEAKER_00]: tight loop, they kind of say the same things every set, you know, it's like a thing.
32:18
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm curious about some of these like, you know, novel applications of, you know, AI or specifically maybe like a LISOS, things when it kind of comes to, you know, financial advice and you guys are working in D-Fi and maybe not explicit like personalized financial advice or anything like that, but like any set it and forget it strategy builders or index investing
32:42
[SPEAKER_02]: that it does for you or, you know, any way to kind of supplant the financial advisor that we have to pay, you know, you know, 2% of, or 1% a year too, like, and anything to kind of like become a new financial advisor.
32:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, all of this comes down to like, if you can quantify a process into a workflow, then you can probably execute it with AI because before it was hard, was like, how do I extract what this paragraph is about?
33:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, now it's pretty easy.
33:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I can be like, hey, I have 10 different categories or, you know, I can classify it into one of these categories and then give me like a score between one and ten and it'll
33:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It might not be perfect, but it will like do it.
33:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It'll put the information into the right structure.
33:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And this ability to take unstructured information and to structure it information was like so powerful.
33:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Because this was the hard problem that we just could like, how do we turn English language into data that we can work with?
33:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what LLMs unlock.
33:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we have that.
33:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we can turn all the English language into like all kinds of crazy financial stuff if we want to.
33:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But we still have to quantify what that is.
33:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So if we're talking about a quantitative finance firm, what we probably really need is access to high-speed information currently as well as historical data, we need to be like, have, there's a whole lot of things that we're running like, are we training RL models, we're training Transformer models, we are we building like a large language model based trading system.
34:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I've tried a lot of these things actually.
34:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if I'm just looking at numbers and trading indicators, like my agents, like over time, they tend to do like 50, 50 minus trading fees.
34:22
[SPEAKER_00]: But what is successful is if I can have an LLM that's listening to like Anson posts the shill coin, I can get that on the first 30 seconds that I can like definitely make a five X off of that.
34:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's where like the LLM's are really interesting, right?
34:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Because like they can take, like just go scan these tweets.
34:38
[SPEAKER_00]: If you see a ticker, go look up the ticker.
34:41
[SPEAKER_00]: If the ticker seems to be like, there's good velocity on it, then go buy, you know, what, two solar, or 10% of your current sole position, you know, like you could quantify this.
34:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I just pick, if I go and do the effort and find like a few hundred influencers who like tend to print money this way, by by chilling stuff because they're not getting paid for it, quote, unquote.
35:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Then, you know, like, hey, that's like a reliable business.
35:07
[SPEAKER_00]: What we found is that the most profitable trading agents are basically all either doing this, like social listening thing or copy walleting, or some combination of the two.
35:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think, so there's definitely something there when you have like a really, really, like this wouldn't work in stocks.
35:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, unless you like, we're able to somehow pull some,
35:28
[SPEAKER_00]: something out of like Elon's tweets magically.
35:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that the market cap of stocks is too high.
35:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But inside of meme coins, like, you know, social signals and fud are actually incredible signals for how the market will do.
35:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you can use the LLM to extract those, that's pretty powerful.
35:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've made a few experiments on this.
35:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a new version of our Spartan agent, who
35:50
[SPEAKER_00]: If he's not open source, we'll open source it soon and does this kind of LLM-based trading and extraction.
35:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I also have done a couple of experiments, which I should like polish on the RL, like a reinforcement learning approach, as well as a transformer-based approach.
36:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So transformer would be like a prediction.
36:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a time series prediction on the actual like candles.
36:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I just find that like if those worked, then
36:13
[SPEAKER_00]: They would end like someone like me who's like like I'm an ML engineer, but I'm not like a PhD level like writing, you know, like game changing PhD papers like then if I could like game the stock market that easily then like everyone would and we quickly get to an efficient market so money glitch.
36:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm a little I'm a little skeptical although you know, because you know, it's really only need like a 5% margin and so definitely I think you know, if you look at technical analysis is like a numbers game overall of like.
36:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's probably not real that I could just look at like any given chart run TA on it in like print money But but in the long run, if it gave me like a 5% advantage of some sort of trend and I could automate that then that could be a money printer for sure But I'm skeptical
36:58
[SPEAKER_01]: it really is a game of like probabilities right there's no certain these there's no secret sauce yeah risk management yeah risk management there's like there's no one easy answer like one easy golden ticket that just solves all this and I know that with the growth of AI people have been like well do to new I AI we've created this perfect trading by and it's guaranteed money and like even now with this good as it's all gotten
37:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's still seems like that's just not a reality.
37:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've had this more scams.
37:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's more scams.
37:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more cast crabs.
37:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And like we get asked at all the time.
37:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So like it sounds like you agree with that.
37:33
[SPEAKER_01]: That these people who are claiming have all these crazy, you know, win rate trap and anything that there's a guarantee, you know, 1% 2% a day.
37:42
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's just a red flag.
37:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a friend in Ronin V, who gave me a great analogy for this.
37:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it applies to kind of everything in this space where he's
37:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, AI agents especially are like dog's playing poker.
37:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you walk into a broom and you see dogs playing poker, like holy fuck those dogs are playing poker.
38:00
[SPEAKER_00]: That's incredible.
38:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never seen dogs play poker before.
38:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you like leave the room, you come back, you leave the room, you come back, cold days later you're like, okay, cool with our still playing poker, but are they good at playing poker?
38:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Like are they actually good, you know?
38:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where we are with agents.
38:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, cool, like they can trade, but can they trade well, like what does trading well mean?
38:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they don't, like at best they are able to scale, like 100 IQ persons capability, like 10,000 X.
38:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But they can't suddenly turn it into like a 150 IQ like like they're not just going to look in like read the T leaves and magically because they're AI knows something that we don't if you can quantify it you can automate it, but if you can't quantify if we can't do it like if I can't trade successfully that like how the fuck am I going to build a trade engage in the so we found was but there are successful things there is one thing that you can reliably count on to make you money which is insider information
38:54
[SPEAKER_02]: which we certainly don't endorse.
38:56
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, absolutely.
38:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And none of us, you know, none of us obviously, but there is a weird thing about crypto memecoins and stuff, which is that there's not really insiders.
39:05
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just a bunch of outsiders who each have outside influence on the overall thing.
39:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Enough that they could almost become the insiders.
39:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the bog, the bog.
39:13
[SPEAKER_00]: There's just a bunch of dudes who bought bog or, you know, it's not like they didn't know each other.
39:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and so I think that if you could have agents that were like delivering value to these people and then building kind of a social listening network into telegram and discord in these places.
39:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you have like some incredible, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, listening rig radar posts all around the world.
39:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You just know any meme coin that's coming up.
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I think that you could make a lot of money through, like, these kinds of ways of doing it, you know, or
39:40
[SPEAKER_00]: What we did with AI-16Z, our idea with our investor was actually what our agent is a mediator for all of the different people making chills.
39:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So our community is constantly chilling.
39:50
[SPEAKER_00]: We have this trenches chat or people are constantly posting stuff.
39:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I did was like, track it all of that and ran it against the agent to build a trust network where I could actually say, who are the most trustworthy and least trustworthy people in our community?
40:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, who is definitely scamming everybody and like, who are like dumps?
40:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And who is actually good at this?
40:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and the best people are about 75% success, right?
40:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And the worst people are like, you know, zero to 10% success, right, kind of thing.
40:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we build this kind of economic trust.
40:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't, I have no idea what your actual wallets are.
40:23
[SPEAKER_00]: You could be saying stuff to me.
40:24
[SPEAKER_00]: You could be totally PVPing me.
40:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do know that if I took you out your word, what money would I have made if I had taken you at your words?
40:31
[SPEAKER_00]: We're like paper trading and then building a trust.
40:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, wow, I would have made a lot of money off this guy.
40:36
[SPEAKER_00]: like then I'll start making real trades off of that.
40:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And we found that was actually pretty effective in simulation.
40:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we have a paper on that.
40:43
[SPEAKER_02]: That's so interesting, and not to go off the rails or whatever, but we've been having some quantum discussions and stuff too.
40:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And I trip out about this all the time.
40:53
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, some of these paper trading bots, it'll be good, but if you actually put money behind it, it's like that observation thing.
41:00
[SPEAKER_02]: If you look at it, then it changes the state of it.
41:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Or it's like, if you add money actually to that, even if it's just $1 or a million dollars, it's like the butterfly effect, it can throw everything off.
41:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, it's just so great.
41:13
[SPEAKER_00]: The wallet you trade on, if I had a bot trading on my wallet, it'd probably have a very different impact than some anonymous wallet.
41:19
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because there's people tracking it.
41:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a whole, like, what's really interesting about the new, like, actually a lot of people are doing algorithmic trading, like a lot of people.
41:28
[SPEAKER_00]: They're using things like GMGN and stuff like this, and they're just copy walleting the top people, and they have like an automatic index, like very, very low-ever.
41:35
[SPEAKER_00]: If you haven't seen GMGN.ai, like, and how people,
41:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so I went to China, and I met a lot of Chinese people, and they're playing this game very way more advanced than I think the kids on pump fun with like a phantom wallet or whatever, you know, like
41:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But definitely like so what they're doing then is they're all like following like Frank's wallet and and Thread guys wall And all these guys are like on fans I'm just kind of fucking around, but because they have this like outside media force they are like creating that wave So you have this like like second order effective a eyes copy trading famous influencers You know, sort of amplifying the K well effect Yeah, it's all very you know
42:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's crazy.
42:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like very automating the greater fool kind of thing.
42:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, I'm definitely going to look into that GM GM dot AI fast trade fast copy trade fast That's a mind-blowing one.
42:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I bet that's easy.
42:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they're they're super that's that's you know
42:33
[SPEAKER_00]: This is how a lot of people trade now.
42:35
[SPEAKER_00]: That's some alpha right there.
42:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, everybody's listening.
42:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Certainly is.
42:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, to shift gears a little bit, I was reading, I was watching something.
42:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I saw that Eliza OS partnered with Stanford to do a study on the future of autonomous agents in digital finance.
42:55
[SPEAKER_01]: What can you tell us about that?
42:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, are there any early insights or takeaways that you have from that?
43:01
[SPEAKER_00]: The program hasn't actually started yet, but we're kind of leaning into this two things.
43:07
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing is FHE and how we can use homeomorphic encryption and basically how we do, you know,
43:17
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... really really privacy oriented agents um... there's a lot of concerns obviously around like the the the the two full thing of agents being like leaking your keys uh... the other side of this like not you know not knowing what the agents are actually doing for you
43:33
[SPEAKER_00]: and how it's verifiable.
43:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one side.
43:35
[SPEAKER_00]: The other side is the focus on this economic trust model stuff.
43:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So we kind of wrote this initial paper and we want to get some credibility to it.
43:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're kind of bringing it there of how do we, we've got some initial, you know, I want to make it like more legit basically, how do we how do we take this marketplace of trust concepts and do a bigger sort of model of it?
43:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Because right now we're modeling it like on our,
43:59
[SPEAKER_00]: chat of maybe 2,000 people and it would be nice to model it on like a social graph like Twitter.
44:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Like could we actually look at all of the people's shelves across, you know, but it's going to require some resources.
44:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's kind of the next one.
44:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
44:13
[SPEAKER_02]: No, yeah, definitely does.
44:15
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's just crazy how many different directions AI is going to go.
44:20
[SPEAKER_02]: I just think of like it's just going to spread in every direction all over.
44:24
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to
44:28
[SPEAKER_02]: action that we do pretty much and like I think the broad take away I think from today is like for folks who are listening or watching and who haven't at least tried it or at least gotten in and like I've even I don't code but I've tried lovable before and I've done vibe coding and like that kind of stuff and it's mind blowing like the power that you now have even as a completely nontecnical person and
44:52
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's only going to get more and more and more easy and more refined and you're going to be able to, you know, like, I think Brennan said, like the silver bullet or the golden ticket or whatever.
45:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Like build these things.
45:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It'll be so easy.
45:04
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and so don't short change yourself by saying, oh, I'm not technical enough to do that.
45:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Just dive in.
45:10
[SPEAKER_02]: and study stuff like a LISOS and get involved in these communities.
45:13
[SPEAKER_02]: These are where people are talking about these big ideas and helping people, we've got a founder on and you're in your discord, you're in telegram.
45:20
[SPEAKER_02]: You're talking to these people, you're engaging, giving your ideas out there.
45:24
[SPEAKER_02]: So I definitely want everybody.
45:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Who's probably just, you know, oh, I'm just a crypto trader.
45:29
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just on Coinbase, maybe I'm just on Phantom, like, don't be afraid to branch out to some of these other sort of things.
45:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, we had some quantum people on.
45:35
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a lot of AI people on.
45:36
[SPEAKER_02]: There's just like an explosion of new interests and new ideas.
45:40
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is interesting that it's converging a little bit on crypto because there's that token that kind of incentivizes and unifies all these disparate groups.
45:48
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I guess the last question I had for you was just kind of on that token.
45:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And like,
45:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it purely a meme coin?
45:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it something that you do see symbolically unifying a lot of these people like is there a future plan for it?
46:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you not a lot of talk about it like where's that all kind of come in and and we'll kind of end on that we definitely have a future plan that
46:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't reveal without legal advice, but we're continuing to build into this.
46:16
[SPEAKER_00]: We actually are announcing the launch of ElizoS, both today as a filming of 1.0, but it would have been probably a couple of weeks if when this gets released.
46:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's like our kind of big like okay, we've launched one point out before this.
46:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say what we had was a research project You know, and now it now it feels like a real product that you can use and we'll have a platform out really really soon Probably really really soon if if this is launched, but it but to your point like I think this is the time where if you're not using AI and your daily life like you are
46:45
[SPEAKER_00]: You're really just, you know, there's this whole like thing going on and people like very anti-AI and well, you know, whatever and like you're just hurting yourself like the technology gives so much value for what it costs it like it's mostly free from most people and it's incredibly incredibly life changing for me as it's as a programmer has been doing this for my whole life.
47:03
[SPEAKER_00]: even down to people I know we're just getting into into building stuff like I have a friend to He started learning programming on YouTube a year ago and he just finished his first app and he's publishing it to the app store like in a year on it's Wow, you know, and and that I remember that was just like a hundred types harder 10 years ago like so much harder, so
47:21
[SPEAKER_00]: There's never been a better time.
47:22
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, this is the best time because it'll probably be kind of over flooded and everyone will be doing it a few years And if you get it right right fucking now and you just like make this your life and you learn on YouTube and like get on discord You know and learn from other people and stuff and just get into the world.
47:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's you could really change your life You could really you know own a piece of the future and I think that's what's really important What about what's coming up is that like I?
47:44
[SPEAKER_00]: we actually have a piece of it you know so that when there are robots walking around the world we're not like oh fuck what do I do we're like yeah I'm an investor in that shit I make it buddy off of this that's the world we all want to be rich you know and I think that could be possible is if we own it so that's why crypto
48:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Man, I love that.
48:02
[SPEAKER_02]: That is such a beautiful vision and that's gonna be a hot clip.
48:06
[SPEAKER_02]: That is gonna be a hot clip So we'll make sure that No, we really appreciate you joining the show Telling us all about what you're building the Liza OS and we certainly You guys everybody's listening certainly have my word that we're gonna be inviting you back if you'll
48:21
[SPEAKER_02]: if you'll join us we'd love to hear more updates down the line and just stay in touch our community I'm sure we'll love this episode so hope you enjoyed Shaw hope everybody hope listening enjoyed and until next time we'll see you soon