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Lessons - The Man Fortune 500 CEOs Pay $250K to Tell Them What They're Doing Wrong | Marshall Goldsmith - #1 Executive Coach & NYT Bestselling Author · Success Story with Scott Clary

• 0:00
  In this lessons episode, discover why success can become a problem when achievement starts defining identity and happiness.
• 0:06
  Understand how ego can distort leadership and decision making.
• 0:08
  Explore why the right coaching requires honest feedback and proven results and uncover how purpose and enjoying the process matter more than endlessly chasing the next win.
• 0:24
  So you have a feedback and follow-up system, and that's your go-to system.
• 0:32
  And I'm also always curious because I see you mentioned back when you were still a dean, if people were out of a job, they'd say they're realtors.
• 0:42
  Now they say they're coaches.
• 0:45
  You have a system.
• 0:46
  Everyone has a system.
• 0:48
  Your system has built you, obviously, an incredible career, and you have 1.5 million on LinkedIn.
• 0:53
  You have massive following.
• 0:54
  You've written books on it.
• 0:56
  You have accolades.
• 0:57
  You have credentials.
• 0:58
  You have experience.
• 0:59
  You've proven out that you know your shit.
• 1:01
  Yeah.
• 1:02
  What makes your system so successful?
• 1:05
  Also, double part question, which is bad, but whatever.
• 1:08
  You'll get, you have to handle it.
• 1:10
  What makes your system so successful?
• 1:12
  But also, how can somebody who's looking to sort of upskill themselves understand out of all the different systems out there that accomplish different things, who to look for in a coach and a person?
• 1:25
  How do you gauge who's full of it versus who's not?
• 1:28
  Well, first, let me answer the first question.
• 1:31
  I may or may not remember after that the second question.
• 1:34
  I'll get back to it.
• 1:35
  It's fine.
• 1:35
  Don't worry.
• 1:37
  So the first question is, how does my system work?
• 1:40
  My system is aimed at helping successful leaders achieve positive change in behavior.
• 1:45
  That's it.
• 1:46
  So number one, if that's not what you want, don't use my system.
• 1:49
  That's what the system is for.
• 1:51
  The system that I'm very proud of, it's called stakeholder-centered coaching.
• 1:56
  And by the way, you don't need to be a PhD to do this.
• 2:01
  He just died about a year ago.
• 2:04
  Chris Coffey was the best coach we had.
• 2:06
  He got better results than me in terms of a coach.
• 2:10
  He was amazing getting results.
• 2:12
  He had zero background in psychology, zero background in business.
• 2:16
  He was a failed actor who barely graduated from college.
• 2:20
  You know what he got, though?
• 2:21
  He got results.
• 2:22
  How did he get results?
• 2:23
  Because of the system.
• 2:25
  The system is pretty simple.
• 2:27
  In my job, I interview everyone around my clients.
• 2:30
  I develop a confidential profile.
• 2:32
  Here's what you're doing well.
• 2:33
  Here's what you're not doing well.
• 2:34
  They don't know who said what.
• 2:35
  They pick important behavior and proof.
• 2:37
  Then we have an ongoing follow-up system.
• 2:39
  They talk to people what they learned.
• 2:41
  They actually apologize for their mistakes.
• 2:44
  They ask for input about how they can do better.
• 2:46
  They call it feed forward.
• 2:48
  I call it feed forward process.
• 2:50
  You ask for ideas.
• 2:51
  You listen.
• 2:51
  You shut up.
• 2:52
  You take notes.
• 2:53
  You say thank you, and you do it over and over again.
• 2:56
  They follow up with the clients.
• 2:57
  I follow up with them over and over and over.
• 2:59
  And for 47 years, I didn't get paid if my clients didn't get better.
• 3:03
  The better is not judged by me or them, but judged by everyone around them.
• 3:06
  I mean, how do you know if someone believes what they're saying and asking a question?
• 3:09
  You want to bet on it?
• 3:10
  They say, I believe it, but I wouldn't bet on it.
• 3:12
  Guess what?
• 3:13
  They don't believe it.
• 3:13
  They say, here's the money.
• 3:14
  They believe it.
• 3:15
  I bet on this every time.
• 3:16
  Pretty much always got paid.
• 3:18
  Why?
• 3:19
  It's the system works.
• 3:21
  So in my basic coaching, it's a very transferable process.
• 3:28
  So that part of it is quite transformative.
• 3:30
  On the other hand, it doesn't fit what it doesn't fit.
• 3:32
  Let me tell you when it doesn't work.
• 3:34
  One, I don't work with people that don't care.
• 3:37
  I'm unfrequently asked, how do I motivate people that don't want to change?
• 3:40
  And the answer is, I don't motivate people that don't want to change.
• 3:43
  If they don't want to change, I don't care.
• 3:45
  I say, fine, don't change.
• 3:47
  If they say, prove to me this is worth it, you know what I'd say?
• 3:49
  Probably not worth it.
• 3:50
  That's a terrible idea.
• 3:52
  Don't do it.
• 3:54
  I think it's stupid.
• 3:54
  You're right.
• 3:55
  It's stupid.
• 3:56
  Don't do it.
• 3:56
  It's okay.
• 3:57
  So I never try to motivate anyone, number one.
• 4:00
  Number two, this doesn't solve integrity problems.
• 4:03
  It doesn't solve strategy problems.
• 4:06
  Basically, it's helping people achieve positive change in their behavior who want to change.
• 4:13
  That's what it's good for.
• 4:15
  So what you're highlighting is actually dovetailing to the next question.
• 4:18
  There's an answer hidden in that answer.
• 4:21
  And I, it's some, it's somewhere around making sure that people are understanding your true motives for getting involved with them as opposed to like forcing something down your throat.
• 4:32
  So that's the hallmark of a reputable coach.
• 4:36
  I think.
• 4:37
  Yeah.
• 4:37
  Here's my strategy on this one.
• 4:39
  Ready?
• 4:39
  Here's how you find if you got a good coach for you first.
• 4:43
  Don't tell the coach what your problem is.
• 4:47
  Don't.
• 4:48
  See, that's counterintuitive.
• 4:50
  Don't tell the coach, here's what I need.
• 4:52
  There's too many coaches.
• 4:55
  If you say, here's what I need, most of them will say, oh, yes, I can do that.
• 4:58
  Well, eh.
• 5:00
  Maybe not.
• 5:00
  Maybe they can't do it.
• 5:01
  But they're probably going to say they can't.
• 5:03
  Don't tell them what you need.
• 5:05
  Say, look, tell me, what are you the very best at?
• 5:12
  They say, well, here's number one.
• 5:15
  Now, if they get down to one, two, three, four, and five, be highly suspect.
• 5:22
  You notice, I don't claim to be a coach of 74 different things.
• 5:27
  One thing.
• 5:28
  What are you good at?
• 5:30
  This.
• 5:31
  Well, I don't need that.
• 5:32
  Fine.
• 5:33
  Get another coach.
• 5:36
  Well, don't tell the coach what you need.
• 5:39
  You ask the coach, what do you do best?
• 5:42
  And then if they get down to the third or fourth topic and they haven't heard what you need, eliminate.
• 5:48
  Okay?
• 5:49
  Then let's assume what they say is roughly what you're good at, what you need.
• 5:56
  Then ask them, okay, who have you coached?
• 5:59
  Who's your coach?
• 6:00
  And is there somebody in writing and references?
• 6:04
  Real people, you coach with the thrill of the soul.
• 6:06
  Now, some coaches are told, well, you can't tell people the names of your clients.
• 6:11
  You may have heard this before.
• 6:13
  Yeah, it's nonsense.
• 6:14
  Look at my book, The Earned Life.
• 6:16
  Let's see.
• 6:18
  Pes of the World Bank.
• 6:19
  Ooh, CEO of the Year.
• 6:21
  Ooh, another CEO of the Year.
• 6:22
  Another CEO.
• 6:23
  Gee, they mention their names, and they say they have a coach, and it is me.
• 6:29
  Well, fine.
• 6:30
  I don't know.
• 6:31
  What is this nonsense?
• 6:33
  I can't tell you who my clients are.
• 6:35
  You know why they don't want to tell you who the clients are?
• 6:37
  They don't have any.
• 6:38
  Yeah.
• 6:39
  Yeah.
• 6:41
  Yeah.
• 6:43
  Yeah, that's, that's, no, I love it because listen, um, we both work with a variety of entrepreneurs in different capacities and I've never, I've never enjoyed, um, I've never enjoyed the paid consulting side of it.
• 6:55
  I find it very hard.
• 6:56
  So I've actually stayed away from it.
• 6:58
  I enjoy doing the pro bono or the mentorship stuff more just because I, consulting is a tough gig.
• 7:03
  And I guess the consulting coaching is the world kind of blend, um, um, yeah.
• 7:08
  But then I come from like a background building businesses.
• 7:11
  I don't come from a coaching background, but I see a lot of coaches.
• 7:16
  And as somebody who, you know, for example, I work with Futurepreneur and they every, you know, every six months they'll give me like a new entrepreneur to work with for a couple for a couple of months.
• 7:27
  And so when you start to work with these early stage entrepreneurs, you see almost like this this predatory behavior because these people that are trying to build, they latch on to anyone and anything.
• 7:38
  That sort of validates what they're trying to do.
• 7:41
  And funny enough, I didn't even realize this behavior as somebody who's not even like a formal coach.
• 7:48
  But I actually say no to more entrepreneurs a futurepreneur puts in front of me because I know that I can't help them.
• 7:55
  then yes, because there's no financial incentive.
• 7:58
  It would be a waste of both of our time.
• 8:01
  I have a background in tech.
• 8:02
  I know a little bit about consumer goods.
• 8:04
  If somebody puts an agency in front of you, I never built an agency.
• 8:06
  I have some general ideas, but there's probably somebody who's going to better serve you.
• 8:11
  I'd probably disqualify more than accept some of the people that they put in front of me.
• 8:15
  But it's an interesting point because I think that a lot of people get preyed on, and especially early-stage entrepreneur where they don't have the support system to vet and they definitely don't have the money to waste, which is the biggest issue.
• 8:27
  The coach needs the money.
• 8:29
  Yeah.
• 8:30
  Yeah, the median income for a coach in the United States is under $50,000 a year.
• 8:35
  They should be realtors.
• 8:37
  And they make no money.
• 8:39
  They make no money.
• 8:40
  So coaching is a wonderful profession and a terrible business.
• 8:45
  It's a hard business.
• 8:46
  It's a very hard.
• 8:47
  Some of the Abilese coaching schools that people go to, right?
• 8:50
  You know what the hell?
• 8:52
  They tell them they're going to grow up and be me when they grow up.
• 8:57
  No, you're not.
• 9:02
  But just probable not every single person that goes through this school is going to be Marshall Goldsmith.
• 9:08
  Very unlikely.
• 9:10
  Look, another point that you're making about your audience, entrepreneurs.
• 9:14
  I work with a lot of people who work for big companies like Accenture, all these companies, and they leave and they're going to be entrepreneurs.
• 9:21
  And they get their butts handed to them.
• 9:26
  They've never experienced life without daddy and mommy behind them writing checks.
• 9:31
  And you go out there in the real world, right?
• 9:33
  You don't have that Accenture name behind you or that IBM name.
• 9:37
  All of a sudden, it's a whole different ballgame out there.
• 9:40
  Yeah, you have a staff of people writing checks.
• 9:42
  You don't have that big corporate McKinsey.
• 9:44
  You don't have that big name.
• 9:45
  I'm coaching an entrepreneur right now.
• 9:48
  You ran a country for McKinsey.
• 9:49
  Well, okay, that's nice.
• 9:51
  But you're not working with McKinsey now.
• 9:53
  I think that entrepreneurs sometimes, first time entrepreneurs get their ego checked very quickly when they try and take a product to market.
• 10:02
  But that's, listen, that's why I think the most successful entrepreneur is somebody who's lived in an industry for, you know, 30 years and realizes the pain point, not just somebody who thinks that they can solve a problem that doesn't even exist yet.
• 10:14
  Yeah.
• 10:16
  If you look at, you know, you speak a lot about achievement and why you should look beyond achievement.
• 10:23
  I thought that was a very interesting perspective.
• 10:25
  So, you know, you're looking at achievement, ambition, fulfillment, finding a meaningful life as a leader, as an entrepreneur, as even an employee.
• 10:37
  So we're talking about almost like KPIs for success.
• 10:39
  So yes, you as a coach, you unlock these, you know, you remove these limiting beliefs, you use a behavior modification.
• 10:47
  But ultimately, when you work with people, where do you want them to end up?
• 10:52
  Because it's more than just getting, you know, a better survey score from your team.
• 10:58
  There's more to it than that.
• 11:00
  Exactly right.
• 11:02
  As I've grown older, I just try to help people have a great life.
• 11:06
  To be the great I can.
• 11:08
  Most of my clients, I work on many people who are billionaires.
• 11:13
  They're already rich.
• 11:14
  I just want to help them have a good life.
• 11:15
  So what do you need to have a great life overall?
• 11:19
  Forgetting about just the money part of it.
• 11:21
  One, you need to have some higher purpose.
• 11:23
  Why am I doing this?
• 11:25
  You need an answer to the question why.
• 11:28
  Some kind of higher purpose.
• 11:29
  Number two, you have to achieve.
• 11:32
  There's people on this call, they're achievers.
• 11:35
  And then number three, you need to love the process of what you're doing.
• 11:40
  All right.
• 11:41
  Now, if you do that in the game of life, you won.
• 11:46
  Now, why am I talking to you right now?
• 11:48
  You know what I could be doing?
• 11:50
  I'm making a terrible sacrifice talking to you.
• 11:52
  I could be at this moment playing crappy golf with old men at the country club and eating chicken salad sandwiches while discussing gallbladder surgery.
• 12:02
  You know what?
• 12:03
  I am sorry that I'm ruining your afternoon.
• 12:06
  I am sorry that I'm ruining your afternoon.
• 12:07
  It won't happen again.
• 12:08
  I'm missing the old man and the gallbladder chat here.
• 12:14
  I mean, look, you've got to enjoy what you do.
• 12:17
  And here's the problem with achievement.
• 12:20
  The great Western myth is, I will be happy when.
• 12:23
  When I get the money status, BMW, condominium, we go public, I will be happy when.
• 12:29
  There is no with.
• 12:31
  There is no when.
• 12:32
  When's an old person waiting to die?
• 12:34
  There is no when.
• 12:35
  So I think it's very important to achieve.
• 12:39
  But achievement and happiness are independent variables.
• 12:43
  Most people never get this.
• 12:44
  Achievement and happiness are independent variable.
• 12:48
  Achievement is good.
• 12:49
  Achieve to achieve.
• 12:50
  Happiness is good.
• 12:51
  Be happy to be happy.
• 12:53
  Don't think you're going to achieve your way to happiness.
• 12:55
  It's not going to happen.
• 12:58
  By the way, if achievement would make you happy,
• 13:01
  How happy would every one of my coaching clients be?
• 13:06
  Exceptionally.
• 13:07
  They would all be jumping up and down with joy every day.
• 13:13
  And they're not.
• 13:14
  So when you deal with people that are billionaires, people that are CEOs of, again, the biggest companies in the world,
• 13:23
  What's a lesson for the rest of us that we should learn from that cohort of people when they've achieved all the shit that we wish we could achieve?
• 13:33
  Well, the first thing is never believe achievement's going to make you happy.
• 13:38
  You know, it won't.
• 13:40
  Now, why do we believe this?
• 13:41
  The great Western art form is there is a person, the person has said, they spend money, they buy a product, they become happy.
• 13:47
  It's called a commercial.
• 13:48
  I don't know if you've ever seen one of those before, but, you know.
• 13:52
  Just a few.
• 13:53
  That's hammered into our brain a zillion times.
• 13:57
  Why wouldn't we believe that?
• 13:58
  That's all we hear in our entire society.
• 14:02
  The reality is just not true.
• 14:03
  The person was sad.
• 14:04
  They bought a product.
• 14:07
  They were happy for a day or two.
• 14:08
  They're not happy anymore.
• 14:10
  They're not happy anymore.
• 14:11
  Well, again, learning point for especially the young entrepreneurs listening, look, life is short.
• 14:18
  I'm 75.
• 14:18
  I know that probably better than you do.
• 14:20
  Life is short.
• 14:22
  It goes fast.
• 14:23
  It goes fast.
• 14:25
  You need to enjoy the process of life itself.
• 14:30
  And it's so easy to get engrossed in being an entrepreneur and your business that it just takes on a life and you forget your life.
• 14:37
  And also, don't forget the people you love.
• 14:40
  It's so easy to do that.
• 14:41
  You forget the people you love.
• 14:43
  You forget to enjoy life.
• 14:45
  You get lost in this stuff.
• 14:47
  And I'm not saying this stuff isn't important.
• 14:49
  It is important.
• 14:50
  It's good to have achievement.
• 14:52
  It's just to realize achievement is good for what it is.
• 14:56
  but it's not good for what it's not.
• 14:58
  And by the way, never fall into the it's all going to be okay win trap.
• 15:03
  There is no win.
• 15:05
  There is no win.
• 15:06
  Thanks for tuning in.
• 15:07
  If you found this valuable, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode.
• 15:12
  And if you want to dive deeper into this conversation, check out the links in the description to watch the full episode.
• 15:18
  See you in the next one.