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Ep. 68 Is Uncertainty Keeping You Stuck? · The Divorce Decision Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is the Divorce Decision Podcast, the show for couples asking the most painful question in marriage.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Should we stay or should we go?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: If your marriage feels heavy, confusing, or painfully uncertain, you're not alone.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're leaning towards divorce or hoping to rebuild your marriage, my desire is to help you find clarity.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Carrie Hoskins.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's get started.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: Hey there, everyone.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the Divorce Decision podcast.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm jumping straight into it today, you guys, because I want to talk about something that I think is really important.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk about something that I see keeping so many people stuck in a crossroads about their marriage for months and honestly, in a lot of cases, for years.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that it might be something that you're struggling with as well.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so here it is.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're waiting to be sure.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Not mostly sure, not pretty sure.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: You want to be 100% certain that staying is the right decision or that leaving is the right decision.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: You want to know that the kids are going to be okay.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: You want to know that you're going to be okay financially.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: You want to know that you aren't going to regret leaving.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or if you're considering staying, you want to know that your spouse is actually going to change this time and that the marriage can actually become what you've been wanting and hoping that it could be.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, you want a guarantee.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: But as I'm sure you're experiencing, the problem is you're never going to get one.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not because you're, you know, making the decision in a wrong way, it's because certainty is what you're waiting for.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: And certainty and clarity are not the same thing.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: And today what I want to do is help you understand the difference, right?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to help you understand why it's important.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: So the goal isn't to make a decision that you never question again.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's kind of impossible, at least while you're making it.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: The goal is to become clear enough about your direction that every difficult day doesn't make you turn around and start that decision making all over again.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: What I want to do is talk about what keeps so many of you from ever getting there, ever getting to that decision.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I call it the 100% trap.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: The 100% trap sounds like this.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'll decide when I'm sure.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, you guys, I understand this.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: It totally sounds responsible.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're talking about your marriage, your family, your finances, your future.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you don't want to make a huge decision impulsively.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: But here's what I see happening.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: You tell yourself, I'll see how things feel after the holidays.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then the holidays come, and they're not great, but they're not so bad either.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: So now it's, well, let's just get through our anniversary.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Then it's, well, I'll wait until the kids finish the school year.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then, well, we'll talk about this maybe after our summer vacation.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually it becomes, I'll figure this out when my youngest graduates high school.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I have talked with people who've been saying after the holidays for like literally four holidays in a row.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Those people are waiting for time.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And some of you are waiting for time.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Others of you are waiting for the moment.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: The one fight that is so awful it finally proves you should leave.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or the one incredible conversation that proves you should stay, one betrayal, one apology, or one grand gesture.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: You want the marriage to somehow make the decision obvious for you so that you don't have to make the decision yourself.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: But you guys, marriages do not usually give us that kind of clean answer.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the search for certainty can actually keep you from doing the very thing that would create clarity.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so what am I talking about?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's say that you and your husband or wife have decided to start working on the marriage.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're in coaching, maybe you're in therapy, you've had some good conversations, he's been coming home on time after work for dinner.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she stopped making those cutting comments to you or about you in front of the kids.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like things are genuinely improving.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: But you won't really lean into that repair because you're still thinking in the back of your mind, but what if it doesn't last?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you keep one foot out the door, you stay guarded, you don't fully let them back in, and you watch for mistakes.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And anytime a mistake happens, you use it as evidence.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually your repair stalls.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then you say, See, I knew it wouldn't work.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot tell you how many times somebody has told me that.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the problem: you are waiting to see if the marriage could change, right?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're waiting for that certainty without ever fully participating in the change.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the same thing can happen when you're leaning towards leaving.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you've been unhappy for years, you've had the conversations, you've tried, maybe you've already done a lot of work around the decision, and deep down you know what you want.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: But you're still waiting to know a certainty that your kids are going to be okay, that the money's gonna be okay, that you won't be lonely, that you won't regret it.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And you guys, those are four things that no one on earth can guarantee you.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you do instead?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: You stay stuck, you stay in limbo.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And limbo has a cost to you.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's just quieter than divorce.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And for a lot of you, it feels easier to tolerate.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that is why that decision continues to be put off and why you continue to stay on the fence.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, here's what I want you to hear.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: The presence of doubt does not automatically mean that you're making the wrong decision.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes doubt is simply a part of making a consequential decision.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think that doubt is a part of almost every big decision we've ever made.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know about you, but I know that whenever I've made a really big decision, my mind goes through all of those what-ifs, right?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So think about the biggest decisions you've made in your life: taking a new job, moving across the country, getting married, having a child, right?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Were those completely free from doubt?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And if your brain requires zero what-ifs this bad thing happens, or zero what-ifs that bad thing happens before you move forward, y'all are gonna have a hard time deciding anything more consequential than what to have for lunch.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if certainty isn't the goal, what is?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's clarity, you guys, it's clarity.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to be really specific about what I mean by that.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Certainty says, I know how this is going to turn out.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Clarity says, I know what I need to do next.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Certainty is about knowing the outcome.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Clarity is about knowing your direction.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So clarity might sound something like, I know I can't keep living like this.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or I know exactly what I need to see change if I'm gonna stay.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Or I know I haven't really given this marriage a fair shot yet, and I want to.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe it's I don't know exactly what life after divorce will look like, but I know continuing like this is no longer acceptable to me.
• 7:53
  unknown: Right?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: So think about the husband who says, I don't know if we're gonna make it, but I know that I want to give it one more shot before I decide.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's clarity.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or the wife who says, I don't know exactly how my kids are gonna handle a separation or divorce, but I know that I can be there for them, reassure them, and help them through it.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's clarity too.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, neither one of those persons or people knows exactly how the story ends.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: They simply know what their next step, what the next chapter needs to be.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there's another piece of clarity that I think that we don't, you know, generally talk about enough.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be clear not only about what you're choosing, but also about what choosing, whatever direction it is, is probably going to feel like.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because whichever path you take, something hard is coming.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Staying can be hard, leaving can be hard, repair can be messy, divorce can be lonely.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: There isn't like some third option where everyone feels great all of the time, right?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And this matters because when something difficult happens that you weren't expecting, your brain tends to interpret it as evidence.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: You freak out, maybe I'm making the wrong decision.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: But when you've anticipated, you know, that difficult moment, or you remind yourself that there's going to be challenges that you can't anticipate, you will interpret them differently.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of, oh no, this means I chose wrong, you think, okay, well, this is one of the hard parts that I knew might come.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a very different experience.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm, I mean, honestly, this is I spend so much time with clients working on this part, right?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like we look down the road.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you stay, what is likely going to challenge you?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you leave, what is likely going to shake your confidence, right?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: What's going to happen on the bad day?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's where clarity really gets tested.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to give you some examples, okay?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: So let's pretend that you and your husband decide that you're going to rebuild your marriage and things are going well for a few weeks, you're communicating better, you're spending more time together, you're feeling cautiously hopeful.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Then three weeks in, he forgets the date night that you both agreed to protect and schedules a golf game like right over it.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Immediately your brain goes to, there, see, nothing's changed, he's never gonna change, what the hell am I doing?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you were expecting perfection, that mistake is going to feel really big.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: But if you've already talked about the fact that repairing a marriage doesn't mean that nobody ever screws up again, it can look really different, right?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: You can look at it differently.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: You can say, okay, well, shoot, that's disappointing.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we definitely need to talk about it.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: But you know that one slip is not necessarily a return to the entire old way of doing things.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or imagine that six months after discovering your wife's affair, her phone buzzes and you feel that familiar jolt or like tight tightness in your stomach, and you think, ah, I'm still reacting.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm never gonna be able to trust her again.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe, but maybe also it simply means that trust comes back slowly and you remind yourself that it's going to take time and that it's gonna come back unevenly, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not necessarily a forward momentum all the time.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: You can be healing and still have moments where your nervous system remembers what happened.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that moment doesn't automatically tell you that repair isn't working.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this brings me to the other side, okay?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this actually uh came up with one of my clients who has decided to leave.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we've been working together for about 10 weeks, and she has become clear that she wants to move forward with divorce.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then last month, her husband did a complete 180.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: After years of asking for things to change, suddenly he's doing things differently.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: He's showing up, he's trying, he's making the changes that she's wanted for a very long time.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: And now, understandably, something like that could shake you, right?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: It could shake her.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: What if this time is different?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: What if I should just give it one more chance, right?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, those questions kind of like went through her head a little bit.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: But we had already talked about the possibility that this might happen.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, we talked about it because it is part of their pattern.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest with you, that's like a really, really common thing in marriages, right?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: That pattern.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: When he realizes that she really is close to leaving, he changes.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now I want to say, and this is what I told her, it doesn't mean that his changes aren't real, and it doesn't mean that they're not positive because they are.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: But she also gets to look at those changes in the context of everything she already knows about the marriage, not just through the emotion of this one moment.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really what clarity gives you.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: It gives you solid, like something solid to come back to when your emotions feel very loud.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: This brings me to the U-turn test.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: So here's how I think that you can find out whether you really have clarity or not.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't necessarily happen on the day you make your decision.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, that's not when it happens at all.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: You typically like can apply this test on the hard day that comes after you've made your decision.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: When something difficult happens, what do you do?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do you adjust the route or do you turn the whole car around?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's a huge difference.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: A course correction says this part isn't working, what needs to change?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: A U-turn says, this feels bad, so the entire decision must be wrong.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to compare it to your GPS, okay?
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're driving somewhere and you suddenly hit traffic.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Your GPS doesn't say, well, this is inconvenient.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Apparently, we chose the wrong destination.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Turn around and go home.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now you might be feeling that inside, but what does your GPS do?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: It says rerouting.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Same destination, different route.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's what clarity allows you to do.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Your destination can hold even when that route needs adjusting.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now I want to give you those examples again, okay, because I think it's really helpful for you.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: I hope it's helpful for you.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: You've chosen to stay and rebuild.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're, you know, a few months in, you have a terrible week, you have a huge argument about money, you both fall right back into the old pattern, and you both say things you regret.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: A U-turn is waking up the next morning after that fight, pulling out your phone and looking up apartments and divorce attorneys because, well, duh, obviously nothing's gonna change.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: A course correction, on the other hand, sounds something like, well, shoot, that was bad.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: We fell right back into the exact pattern that we're trying to change.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: What do we need to do different next time?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do we need to talk about this in our next coaching session?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're not ignoring the problem.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're addressing the problem without turning the problem into a referendum on the entire marriage.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's imagine the other side.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine that you've chosen to leave.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's Friday night, the kids are with your soon-to-be ex.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Your house is quiet, you're lonely, maybe you've had a glass of wine, and your brain suddenly starts playing the highlight reel, the vacations, Christmas mornings, the funny thing that he used to say, or the funny thing that she used to say.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And at 11 p.m., you find yourself wanting to text your soon-to-be-ex, hey, do you think we made a mistake?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's the you-turn.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Not because you're thinking about them in a loving way, and not because you're you miss something, not because you're sad.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: You might be feeling all those feelings.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Those are very normal feelings.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's the you-turn because one painful night suddenly gets the power to rewrite and make you question a decision that you've spent months thinking through.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: A course correction would sound like, huh, all right, Friday nights are harder than I expected.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: You guys, that's useful information.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Then you ask, what do I need to do?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need to make plans with friends.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need to join a club.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need to leave, uh, stop leaving Friday nights completely open and empty.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need more support.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's rerouting.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're not changing your destination, your decision, because the road got hard.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think it's really important to just kind of throw this in here.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Clarity does not mean that you're never allowed to change your mind.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you genuinely get new information, if new information comes in, absolutely reassess.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: That is not failure, that is not wishwashiness, that is wisdom.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I want you to start noticing the difference between new information and old feelings.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Loneliness, fear, guilt, missing someone, hope.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: They are all feelings and they're all important and they deserve your attention.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: But feelings do not always mean that there's new information.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: So when you find yourself questioning your direction, try asking yourself, did I learn something new?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or am I experiencing one of those hard moments that I already knew might come?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: That question can save you from having to restart the entire decision every time your emotions change.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So before we wrap up, I want to give you just some questions for you to think about.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I would really suggest that you sit down and journal these, but at minimum, just sit with them when you have a little bit of time to yourself, you have a little bit of quiet.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Here they are.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: The first question: Am I waiting to feel 100% sure before I allow myself to move forward?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And what is it that I'm waiting to be certain about?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: How many times have I moved my own decision deadline?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Whichever direction I'm leaning, what are the three hardest moments that I could reasonably expect if I choose that path?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really good one for you.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And when the moments happen, what will I want to remind myself of?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, when I've doubted myself in the past, was there actually new information, or was I just having a really hard day?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: So here is what I hope that you take away from this episode.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Clarity isn't certainty.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: You may never feel 100% sure, and you don't have to.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Clarity is knowing your direction well enough that when the predictable hard moments come, and trust me, you guys, they're going to come, you don't automatically assume that you've made the wrong decision.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: You can pause, you can look at what's happening, and you can make adjustments, you can reroute.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if something genuinely changes, you can reassess.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: But you don't have to make a U-turn every time that road gets uncomfortable.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's true whether you're staying and rebuilding or whether you're leaving and creating a life outside of the marriage.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Neither path comes with a guarantee.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And what you're looking for is enough clarity to choose your next step and enough understanding of yourself to stay grounded when doubt inevitably comes along for the ride.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so listen, if you're feeling stuck and conflicted about what to do, I suggest that you start, well, first of all, with those questions that I just asked you.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then I would say the second step would be to go take my quiz.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can find it at kahoskins.com.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Should We Get a Divorce?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: The Should We Get a Divorce quiz, okay?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to help you identify like which stage of the divorce decision you're in and what you may need next.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people have taken this quiz and they are finding it very, very helpful.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want help sorting through all of this stuff, if you want help getting clear, I encourage you to book your free consultation with me.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: You can find the book button at kahoskins.com.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: I also put it in the link in the show notes.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I suggest while you're there, just kind of poke around my website.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um have some stuff in there for you to read.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: My pricing is also published there as well.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's usually people's first question is how much does it cost?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: So you can go check that out on my website.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: All right, my friends, I want you to remember clarity doesn't mean you never have doubt.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: It just means that doubt doesn't get to drive the car.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you all for listening to the Divorce Decision podcast.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Carrie Hoskins, and I will talk to you next time.