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Why Transracial Adoptees Feel Like Strangers in Their Own Mirror (And What Reunion Taught Adam Esparza) · The Resilience Project

0:00
SPEAKER_03: Hi y'all, I'm Julie.
0:02
SPEAKER_03: I'm a trauma-informed adoptee coach and somatic healing guide.
0:06
SPEAKER_03: After overcoming deep abandonment wounds, I now help adult adoptees move from feeling lost and disconnected to experiencing profound self-belonging.
0:19
SPEAKER_03: I know what it is like to carry the weight of abandonment, to feel stuck in patterns of longing, adapting, and searching for belonging.
0:30
SPEAKER_03: To have tried every healing modality available and come up empty.
0:36
SPEAKER_03: My own healing has taught me this.
0:38
SPEAKER_03: The answers aren't out there.
0:40
SPEAKER_03: They're buried within me.
0:42
SPEAKER_03: And I'm here to guide you home to yourself.
0:45
SPEAKER_03: The Resilience Project podcast brings voice, visibility, and validation to the parts of adoption society rarely names, but all of us feel.
0:57
SPEAKER_03: Through an trauma-informed somatic lens, I explore the lived experiences of the entire adoption constellation with a tender emphasis on the adoptee experience.
1:11
SPEAKER_03: This podcast goes beyond storytelling into soul telling.
1:15
SPEAKER_03: It offers embodied insight, compassionate education, and a path towards awareness, hope, and strength.
1:25
SPEAKER_03: Each episode invites listeners to understand adoption more deeply, not just with the mind, but with the nervous system, and to reconnect with the truth, identity, and belonging that were always yours to come home to.
1:40
SPEAKER_03: Welcome.
1:56
SPEAKER_03: And I'm just so grateful for Adam and his heart to be able to do it again.
2:01
SPEAKER_03: So this episode is one that I've really, really been looking forward to because we're diving into some layers of adoption that often don't get talked about enough.
2:12
SPEAKER_03: So especially when it comes to transracial and transnational adoptee experiences, which Adam is, my guest is from Mexico.
2:23
SPEAKER_03: He's an advocate, he's an ambassador, he's working with and for the Adoptee Mentor Society, alongside Angela Tucker and someone who is actively reconnecting with his roots right now, his culture, his identity, and his story in really powerful ways.
2:40
SPEAKER_03: So what stood out to me immediately when Adam and I started talking is that he isn't just interested in telling his story, the things that adoptees carry often go unseen.
2:51
SPEAKER_03: And he's more interested in illuminating those things, those things that society doesn't seem to want to name.
2:59
SPEAKER_03: The grief of cultural disconnection, the complexity of reunion, the feeling of not fully belonging in certain adoptee spaces, the ways that the body remembers what the mind does not fully understand yet.
3:13
SPEAKER_03: And I think this conversation is especially important because we hear a lot about certain adoption narratives, but not all adoptee experiences receive the same visibility or advocacy.
3:27
SPEAKER_03: Adam talks openly about reconnecting with Mexico, returning to Guadalajara, discovering troubling realities surrounding adoptions during his time period, and the emotional complexity of trying to piece together identity across countries, cultures, and systems.
3:47
SPEAKER_03: We also talk about a community.
3:49
SPEAKER_03: We're going to talk about what it's like to be a guy in the adoptee spaces, advocacy, and the reality that adoptees don't all cope in the same way.
3:59
SPEAKER_03: Some lean in, some shut down, some don't yet have the language for what they carry.
4:05
SPEAKER_03: And all of that deserves compassion.
4:08
SPEAKER_03: So whether you're an adoptee, someone who loves one, or someone simply wanting to understand these experiences more deeply, I think this conversation is going to expand something for you.
4:20
SPEAKER_03: So let's get into it.
4:22
SPEAKER_03: Adam, welcome.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to be here.
4:27
SPEAKER_03: We are so happy to have you.
4:29
SPEAKER_03: We collectively being me and my dog Murphy, who's in the room right now.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: I have my princess Greta.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: Actually, my cat is sitting right next to me right here.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: She's just pissed out on the bed.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: So, but we love our animals.
4:46
SPEAKER_03: We do.
4:46
SPEAKER_03: They're so supportive.
4:48
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
4:50
SPEAKER_03: So can you share a little bit about your story and what it was like growing up in a transracial, transnational household situation from Mexico?
5:02
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, like we mentioned before, I'm adopted from Mexico.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: So I'm a transnational adoptee.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I also consider myself transracial as well.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: Growing up, I actually looked a lot more Latino.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: For some reason, I just got lighter and lighter over the years.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: It was the United States, who knows?
5:22
SPEAKER_00: But um when I was younger, it it really stood out, especially within the contrast of my adoptive family.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, just we're walking at the supermarket, and it wasn't uncommon for a Latino woman to be walking by and start to speak to me in Spanish next to my parents, because it was it was just blatantly obvious growing up.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: So, and I didn't have the language for how that made me feel, obviously being that young, but it was definitely it was definitely a a factor.
5:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, clearly.
5:57
SPEAKER_03: And I've heard that from many adoptees that I have talked with and explored this with who are transracial and transnational.
6:05
SPEAKER_03: There's just this belief that they just walk up to you and speak.
6:08
SPEAKER_03: And maybe I don't know the language.
6:10
SPEAKER_03: Did you ever think that?
6:11
SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah.
6:12
SPEAKER_03: And I know it's not in itself.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, it used to even offend my mother, actually.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: I remember her telling me she would get annoyed.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: But as I got older, I was, well, I guess you can't really blame other people.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: It's what they saw.
6:26
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
6:26
SPEAKER_03: But it also contributes to that whole other feeling.
6:29
SPEAKER_03: I was just putting air quotes around that for those of you who are not watching.
6:32
SPEAKER_03: It's that feeling that we have as adopted people, whether we're transracial or not, that there's this feeling of otheredness, but it gets amplified when you don't look like, truly don't look like culturally the people who are raising you.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: And that's where the build-on of stress comes, even as a kid.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was really uh one point, you know, make it gave me a lot of anxiety.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: I'd have to make up stories.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: And I remember being in, I think it's maybe kindergarten or first grade, and we would do show and tell, and the kids would bring in photos of their family, and they would all say, Oh, I look like mommy, or I look like exactly like my brother, and blah, blah, blah.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: People think we're twins.
7:12
SPEAKER_00: And I obviously did not have any of that.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: In fact, it just it I looked so out of place.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: So, right in that, and being a kid going through that, you make stories up, and oh yeah, my my other part of my family just wasn't in this photo.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: We look more alike, things like that.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: And that's what you do as a kid.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: You you start learning how to survive.
7:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you do.
7:34
SPEAKER_03: I remember standing in the hallway of my house, and I'm domestically adopted.
7:38
SPEAKER_03: So I'm white, my parents are white.
7:40
SPEAKER_03: And I remember people telling me, Oh, you look just like your mom.
7:43
SPEAKER_03: And I remember thinking, No, I don't.
7:46
SPEAKER_03: What are you talking about?
7:47
SPEAKER_03: And she would think it was the best thing ever.
7:51
SPEAKER_03: And I just remember looking at family photos and in so many ways, willing that to be true, just wanting it so much to be true because I wanted to see myself reflected so desperately.
8:03
SPEAKER_03: But I don't even think I fully understood that until much later in my life because again, I didn't have the language like we're talking about.
8:12
SPEAKER_03: So interesting.
8:14
SPEAKER_03: So, when did you first begin realizing that there were layers to your adoption experience that maybe weren't being named around you?
8:24
SPEAKER_00: Being much darker, that was the main thing, you know, right?
8:27
SPEAKER_00: And having other children even expecting me to already speak Spanish that I went to school with.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: So there usually was about a handful of children that you could tell were from different countries, looked like the way that I looked, but they had the advantage of speaking that other language.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when they were all friends and they go up into the corner at recess and and they all did speak Spanish and they all did look alike, that was great.
8:53
SPEAKER_00: They had that that that camaraderie.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: But even for me to try and join in that group, it's like you know, something's still missing, which was the language part.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: So, and as a child, even I always had a desire.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: So one day I would tell myself, I'm gonna be fluent in Spanish.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: It was really important to me, even as a kid.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: And I think even at that age, I had it in my head that maybe one day something would happen as far as a reunion, which in my case it did, and I wanted to be prepared.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: So I I dedicated a lot of time throughout my whole life just learning the language.
9:31
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I don't think you're actually speaking to something that a lot of us feel.
9:38
SPEAKER_03: I mean, like I said, I was domestically adopted, but found out just five years ago, a little bit over five and a half years ago, that I was 50% Italian.
9:47
SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's a big deal in America.
9:49
SPEAKER_03: It's very rare that you have that much in you.
9:52
SPEAKER_03: And I remember thinking, well, duh, that makes sense.
9:55
SPEAKER_03: I use my hands all the freaking time, you know, the whole thing that you see with uh Italian people.
10:00
SPEAKER_03: And uh, but I just I felt like such a, I don't know, a coming home to me.
10:05
SPEAKER_03: And we talked about this the first time we recorded, and we'll talk about it again, but just that real connection that you feel even to the language that you weren't raised with.
10:18
SPEAKER_03: And so it's so for me, it was so cool to be able to begin learning it and notice how it felt when I was able to understand and speak.
10:28
SPEAKER_03: It was it was beautiful.
10:30
SPEAKER_03: So love that.
10:31
SPEAKER_03: But again, it's loss.
10:33
SPEAKER_03: We experience loss when we go through that, you know, and we have to really allow ourselves to take the time and make the space to to grieve that loss.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: But it's also like that feeling of being robbed in some sense.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: As I got older, I would even think that I would have that feeling.
10:48
SPEAKER_00: Wow, this was completely taken from me.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't even given a shot to look into it.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: And and you during those teenage years, obviously it starts to turn into confusion and then turns into frustration and then anger and certain things that would build up over time.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: And at some point, as I got into my late teens, I even made the decision to legally change my name because I was looking in the mirror and I found myself feeling almost repulsed, you know, because my name to me didn't match the way that I looked.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: And it really was causing me so much confusion and and making me not be able to feel comfortable in my own skin.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: So I had went to court and I had legally changed my names back to my birth surnames.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: So the names that I have now are actually the my last names that I was I was born with.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: And then I kept Adam from my family that adopted me from my adoptive family.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: So it's like both.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: And late in later years was the whole thing with my adoptive parents, and I could see how not understanding it could come off like a slap in the face.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: Here I am changing the last name that you gave me.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: When I explain it to them now, and I just they can understand that the real reason was just so I could feel okay, they understand it more.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: Because there really probably could have been any Latino name.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: Just I needed it to reflect me and where I was from.
12:20
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, totally makes sense.
12:22
SPEAKER_03: I've had multiple adopted people tell me that it's hard even looking in the mirror at themselves.
12:28
SPEAKER_03: They have a hard time doing that because they're just not sure who who am I looking at.
12:35
SPEAKER_03: That whole divided sense of self that we have, it's can be really challenging to do what we in the profession call mirror work, where we're actually looking at ourselves and affirming ourselves.
12:47
SPEAKER_03: It takes some time for adopted people, at least in my experience, to feel really comfortable with that.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: So you just confirmed that in my own experience.
12:56
SPEAKER_03: So it's really fascinating.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Because there's a whole added component, you know, whereas other people, non-adoptees, they're looking into the mirror with already having a sense of, okay, this is where I'm from, and this they already have all that.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: And to be equipped with that, I mean, I don't think that non-adoptees understand fully how valuable, you know, that that is.
13:21
SPEAKER_03: Very, very much agree.
13:22
SPEAKER_03: So you definitely spoke to all of the layers.
13:25
SPEAKER_03: We definitely got to those.
13:27
SPEAKER_03: So I appreciate that.
13:29
SPEAKER_03: When I think about being transracial and transnational, what's been in the news recently is stuff with Korean adoptees.
13:37
SPEAKER_03: And you and I actually had a bit of a conversation about that.
13:40
SPEAKER_03: And that's important.
13:42
SPEAKER_03: I think what you've noticed is there isn't much around Mexican adoptees.
13:47
SPEAKER_03: And so my question to you is why do you think that is?
13:50
SPEAKER_00: I think number one, you know, I think part of it is cultural.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: It's funny too, because after I went down to Mexico for my reunion trip, I mean, I do, I could see the way the people are.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: They they are the kind of people that like to keep to themselves.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: I think they're good at covering up um, you know, the ugly, so to speak, and and just keeping all that news.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, even what just happened there with um the the cartel, everything in Mexico, which um my birth family actually lives right in the area where well the violence was happening, um, I think back in February.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: But that was covered up so, you know, so quickly right after, you know, for whatever reason.
14:28
SPEAKER_00: Press or or things like that.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, some countries have gotten have gotten good at that.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: I think in the case of Korean adoptees, this it was such a enterprise business, and it really got so big that, you know, it was bound to grab the attention um of people sooner or later.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: But when I was talking to my birth sister, one of the my first family members that I met from my birth family, just about what it was like, you know, be adopted being adopted, she just started going off on her own and telling me how things were back in that time and how people would literally fear that their babies would be stolen and they would hide them in their houses in Mexico around the time of my adoption.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: My birth sister's younger than I am, but she had looked into it just out of her own curiosity after I cut back into their lives.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: My brother here, my adoptive family had adopted another child.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: He's older than me, but also adopted from Mexico, a different part of Mexico just recently.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: It was last year.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: The agency that he was adopted from was on the news because they had uncovered factual evidence of black market baby sales.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: And so he had said, This is the same agency, right?
15:43
SPEAKER_00: You know, and and so is he was basically asking, was he a black market baby?
15:47
SPEAKER_00: He's very different than I am, but every now and then it comes out and that I could tell he wants to know.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, otherwise he wouldn't have asked.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
15:57
SPEAKER_00: So that was on the news, well, right back to Mexico, because they were doing the same thing, maybe not on as wide of a scale, and maybe they were better at keeping it quiet, but it was still going on the same way.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, my brother here was dropped off at a, I think, a monastery or a church, and that's how he was taken in.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: In my case, I wasn't even through an adoption agency.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: It was through some independent lawyer, which I'm not really, you know, who knows where these people are really from.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: My parents had just found out about him through their friend who had adopted a baby from Mexico.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: That's how a lot of it happened back then.
16:37
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, it's it's crazy.
16:40
SPEAKER_03: A couple of things come to my mind.
16:42
SPEAKER_03: This is what you referred to when we were talking on Instagram as the dark underbelly, discovering what that was of adoptions in Guadalajara.
16:51
SPEAKER_03: And I think there's lots of being left on a monastery step or even through a private lawyer, the amount of money that changes hands is astronomical.
17:03
SPEAKER_03: I I did a interesting little reel with Crystal Park, who I know you and I both love.
17:09
SPEAKER_03: We've talked about yeah, well, she's because she's adopted is right behind me on my shelf.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just literally just spoke to her too, I think, yesterday.
17:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's amazing.
17:19
SPEAKER_03: I know, yeah, yeah, she's great.
17:21
SPEAKER_03: I did too, actually, which I think is funny.
17:23
SPEAKER_03: But we did this thing when we went to the adoption making of me event where we walked around and actually asked people, are they adopted?
17:31
SPEAKER_03: Because we wanted to see if we could find somebody.
17:34
SPEAKER_03: And we did uncover somebody who was.
17:37
SPEAKER_03: And she talked about how she was$20,000 and how her brother was$20,000.
17:41
SPEAKER_03: And so many people have commented on that post and been like, what?
17:46
SPEAKER_03: People put, oh my gosh, okay, good.
17:48
SPEAKER_03: We're uncovering what's really important because to some degree it can be considered human trafficking.
17:54
SPEAKER_03: And that freaks people out when I say that.
17:56
SPEAKER_03: They are like, now let's not go that far.
17:59
SPEAKER_03: And well, let's go that far.
18:01
SPEAKER_03: Because in some cases, when it's black market, that's what happens.
18:06
SPEAKER_03: And the story that I mentioned to you before, Patricia Knight Meyer's Wonderland story, that's what she was.
18:11
SPEAKER_03: She had no birth certificate.
18:13
SPEAKER_03: She, her parents were basically extorted by the lawyer.
18:17
SPEAKER_03: Stuff like that, just it's wrong and it should not happen.
18:21
SPEAKER_03: And so I think it's important for us to talk about.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and yet it happens all the time.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: It's that's all that went on.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: Like you said, it's it was kept in the dark.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: But in a way, adoption has been kind of made into that Hallmark TV movie.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: And of course, everybody loves to see the happy endings and and the reunions.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and it's a miraculous thing.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm going through it myself.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: So there's parts of it, yeah, that are amazing, but there's also other parts.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: I had done a talk, it was last year, and it was with AMS, the Adopte Mentoring Society.
18:55
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, you younger adoptees these days, like no idea how lucky you are to have these resources that if I had during that time, I probably could have avoided a lot of difficult and dangerous situations that were all linked to me not understanding what I was going through, not having somebody I could talk to that would either be receptive or already understand.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's a great thing that people are speaking up these days, and people just can't be afraid to go there.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: I remember even you were just talking about the money amounts.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: I remember when I did um, I think I was actually on the Making of Me podcast, and that had come up during our talk then, and I had said, you know, it's so weird, you look back on things in hindsight, and then you're you have to take a double take.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: But growing up, my parents would have this joke, and it was meant to be a joke.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: I understand that.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: But looking back on it, so what they would say is, Oh, you know, Adam, you were more expensive than your brother.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: You were like 20 and your brother was only 10.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: And then my at the time, I would go, oh, thanks.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, and then later you're thinking, well, okay, I know that wasn't their intent, but I don't even think they understand um how messed up, you know, that that notion is.
20:19
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, you're you're right.
20:21
SPEAKER_03: It's it's odd.
20:22
SPEAKER_03: And I remember even in that little thing that we did with Crystal, I said I was 500.
20:27
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I was adopted in the early 70s.
20:30
SPEAKER_03: And I remember my mom used to think that was funny.
20:33
SPEAKER_03: So uh exactly.
20:35
SPEAKER_03: It's so we don't realize how it impacts us till later when we think about it and we're like, that's weird.
20:41
SPEAKER_03: You shouldn't pay for babies.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, I think uh I even mentioned the first time we spoke about my orchestra teacher.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you remember that, but I was, I think I was in seventh grade, and all she was doing was asking the class what countries they were from, where they were from, what the do they like the music from that country?
21:00
SPEAKER_00: And when she got in, you know, I was raised in a Jewish family.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: I was adopted into a Jewish family, and she had said, Oh, Adam, you're Jewish.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: And then she goes, Wait, a Mexican Jew?
21:11
SPEAKER_00: And she started laughing, and the entire class started laughing, and I was mortified.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: I think I ran out of the room so quick and just ran to the bathroom and just wanted to hide my head and stall and never come out.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: Like that's how much it affected me.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: But then, you know, there's always that line, okay, how much did the other person understand?
21:30
SPEAKER_00: Usually it seems like not much.
21:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's true.
21:34
SPEAKER_03: And then we are trying to educate them to help them understand.
21:39
SPEAKER_03: And then it feels frustrating to us because we're like, you don't get it, and then you're telling us we should be grateful and that we're lucky.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:46
SPEAKER_03: No, I that's no, no, no.
21:49
SPEAKER_03: Um, I can be both.
21:50
SPEAKER_03: I can be grateful for the fact that I actually had a decent life, but yet there's still a lot of loss that I'm holding.
21:55
SPEAKER_03: So back off, Jack.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: Right.
21:59
SPEAKER_03: So you mentioned Mentioned reunion earlier.
22:02
SPEAKER_03: And I wanted to actually ask you about that because I think you've returned a couple of times, correct?
22:07
SPEAKER_03: To Guadalajara.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: I went one time.
22:10
SPEAKER_03: You're planning another trip soon.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: I think planning one, yes, in the fall for Dia de los Muertos.
22:17
SPEAKER_03: Right.
22:18
SPEAKER_03: And we're going to talk about that in just a minute.
22:21
SPEAKER_03: But I want to know what it's been like, this story for you.
22:25
SPEAKER_03: You've been sharing some stuff online, and I've watched some of those videos, and they were really cool.
22:29
SPEAKER_03: But what was that experience like for you emotionally?
22:32
SPEAKER_03: And then as the somatic professional that I am, I want to know if you can identify what it was like in your body to experience that reunion.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was probably without me even having to say, it was it was so miraculous.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: It was probably the most incredible experience that's ever happened to me, I'll be honest.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: I and the way that it happened, the synchronicity of it, the timing of the way it just developed had just made it even more special.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: Because before it this happened to me, I had really hit my brink.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: And as far as the way that it was affecting me physically, what I was doing was not working.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: And had I gone on to continue like that, I'm not even sure if I would be here today.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: I had gotten to a point where I was just burying anything I felt with alcohol.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: I had definitely taken it too far, which I don't drink anymore to this day.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: That was part of the process of my catharsis.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: But you have to hit rock bottom.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: The further you fall, the harder you bounce, and the higher you bounce back.
23:41
SPEAKER_00: And I'm fortunate that I was able to overcome these things.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: But it had gotten me to the point where I was finished.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: I didn't even want to search anymore.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: And I really wouldn't have had it hadn't been for one of my partner's friends who had suggested her mother was adopted.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: And she said, Why don't you just try?
24:00
SPEAKER_00: They're having this sale on this genealogy app and just try it.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: I said, I really don't want to, man, but she pushed me to it.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: And so I did it.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: And then a couple of years later, I first started, I would start to go out.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: And people would, I pay for something at the supermarket, and they would say, Oh, wow, your last name is Plasencia.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: I know a placencia.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: And I would be like, No, man, that's impossible.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: You're telling me you don't nobody has my last name.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: I'd go to the doctor's office.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: The secretary would go placentia, and I would get up, and it wasn't me.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: And I'd say, What is going on here?
24:30
SPEAKER_00: I kept hearing my name everywhere.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: And then, funny enough, I'm sitting on the couch at home with a friend of ours, um, who's actually a psychic.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: He does celebrity psychic uh readings.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: And I looked down on my phone and we're actually talking about birth fathers.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: He didn't know his birth father his whole life.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: So we were having this conversation about searching.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: And it was at that very moment I looked in and I got a message from a guy, Gus, in California.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: And he said, Adam, I think I'm your cousin.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: And it turned out that his mom happened to be my birth mom's first cousin, who was there during the entire process of my adoption and what actually happened.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: Um she was there for it all.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: And that's how that connection had met.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: When I finally went down, so you were asking how it physically affected me.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: When I first got down there and fell into my comfort zone, I have to say that's probably the first time I've stepped out of being in survival mode in my body.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: I just let it go.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: And that was the best feeling because I've never done that.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: You know, we're always on the right.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: We have we have to be alert because being an adoptee, you're so accustomed to changing and to adapting in every different situation that you go into.
25:53
SPEAKER_00: That to not have to do that ever was it was I never felt that before.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: So physically, that was that was a great thing.
26:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
26:01
SPEAKER_03: And elementary, probably.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: And and look, it's it is, I'm really grateful the way that it it turned out.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's nothing's ever gonna be completely perfect.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't able to find my birth father.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: I actually am working with a private invest with an investigator who had found out last month she actually called me with his death certificate.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: So I was too late in finding my birth father.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: But like I said before, I'm just so grateful that what happened at least happened.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: So I have no regrets.
26:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
26:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's awesome.
26:38
SPEAKER_03: Well, and you had mentioned returning again for the Día de los Muertos.
26:42
SPEAKER_03: So I'm curious for you, what does that symbolize for you, even now, knowing your birth father is no longer with us?
26:49
SPEAKER_03: But then also there's a whole other piece to this that I know of that I'd love for you to speak to.
26:55
SPEAKER_03: What does that symbolize for you personally now as an adopted person?
27:00
SPEAKER_00: I think this trip is probably gonna be because there is this added layer of importance, and it's gonna be an extra special trip solely because of that.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: My birth father and my birth mom had two boys.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: My full brother, his name is Israel.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: And when I had first met everybody, um, I had a video call, my birth mom was on it, and she started hysterically crying.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: And my birth sister, Daniela, was like, Adam, it's nothing to do with you.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: It also you don't know, but your brother looks exactly like you.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: So she's looking at you and she's also seeing Israel, and that's what's getting to her, also.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: But it's she's happy, she's so happy.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: So don't think, you know, anything else.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, okay.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: So I found out more about Israel as we were talking.
27:45
SPEAKER_00: And at first, my birth mom said, Oh, yeah, he's we go over how old I was.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: So at the time I was I was 41.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: And she goes, Oh, Israel's 41 too.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, he's 41, like also, you mean, or he's or she goes, Oh, he's a little older than you.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, okay, he's a little older than me.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, it was first meeting, so I didn't look too much into it.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: And later in the conversation, she had slipped out that he was a little younger than me.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: So then I went back and I said, Wait a minute, what's going on?
28:11
SPEAKER_00: Is he older?
28:12
SPEAKER_00: Is he younger?
28:13
SPEAKER_00: I'll be honest, I still haven't seen proof of his actual birthday, but I believe what she's saying because I did think at first that we were twins and maybe something had happened, and which would have been fine, even if that still was the case.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: I just didn't know what to think.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: But the way that it worked out was with her and my birth father, when they conceived me, right after that, they had split.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: They actually it wasn't gonna work out, and that's why she fell into this trap with this guy that set up my adoption.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: So she had signed everything, and and Gus, the cousin I mentioned before, his mom was with her through this whole time.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: So 1981, Mexico, and she changed her mind.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: And when the authorities that came looking for me to take to take me, they needed to take the baby back.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, she hid me in her mom's house, my abuela's house, who I was named after.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: Her name was Juana, and I was named Juan.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: And she actually was trying to hide me so they couldn't take me.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: But they came and she described the whole scene that she was kicking and screaming and she was just doing everything she can to not let them take me, but what was done was done.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's how they're and then they took me back.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: And then after that, my father came back, and my mother basically had said, I gotta tell you something.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: And the way she put it to me was when she told him, in Osencio, my birth father, what happened to me.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: She said either he didn't believe her or that he seemed like he did not want to believe her, which I could see both.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: And then immediately after that, they were married and conceived Israel, which is why we're so close in age and look so much alike, I'm guessing.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: And then he was born, and then eventually she left him for the last and final time.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: So, but that's the story.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: So when I go back, and uh well to elaborate too, Israel actually passed away in his 20s, so we think he was around 25.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: So to go back this Dia de los Muertos is extremely special because it's also going to be goodbye to him, and I want to give him proper notice and and do attention and visit his offrenda, which is a shrine.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: Like you ever seen the movie Coco?
30:27
SPEAKER_00: They make these beautiful shrines to their loved ones who've passed away, and you go visited and you pray, and so that's one of the main, the main reasons for me to go back.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, ever since I found out about him, I felt, you know, it's almost like I feel like he's around me in the oddest way.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: Um after one more quick thing about Israel when I was down at my reunion trip, we had gone on a hike, me and my brother, Miguelito.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: And it was a hike that Israel often enjoyed going on himself.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: And we get back from the hike.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: It was a whole day ordeal.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: It was really hard, too.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: It was a lot harder than I thought.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: And all I said when I came back was, I wish that Israel was with us.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: I wish that I knew, you know, he was just around us in some way.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: My sister happened to be at the house too.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: And my birth family knows that I'm an artist.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: What they don't know is that growing up I had such an affinity with roses.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: I would do anything with roses, keep them.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: They would be hanging all over any apartment I've ever had, paint them, press them, whatever, you name it.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: And so I said, I wished Israel was with us.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: And she goes to the top of the refrigerator and she grabs down a rose, a wooden chiseled rose, and she says, Adam, your brother was an artist growing up, and all he did was paint roses, and he had such a thing with roses.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: And I think that he would want you to have this.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: So she let me actually have it over here, I'll show you.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: And that was my way of knowing that he was with us, and I truly believe that.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: This is the rose that she brought down.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he painted it, it's all made out of wood, and he would chisel it, and it was like a whole bouquet.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, wow, how perfect that out of all things, it's a rose.
32:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's why it's gonna be really special.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
32:22
SPEAKER_03: I believe that.
32:24
SPEAKER_03: And there are many synchronicities and signs that so many adoptees experience that tell them, yeah, that makes sense.
32:33
SPEAKER_03: That's why I'm from this family.
32:35
SPEAKER_03: I'm a singer, they were a singer, I'm an artist, they're an artist, they liked roses, I liked roses.
32:40
SPEAKER_03: It's not surprising.
32:41
SPEAKER_03: Genetics are powerful.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: So this one is even this will blow your mind.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you really quick.
32:46
SPEAKER_00: When I was younger, I dated a girl, and her birthday was May 28th.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: So for years, I was so infatuated with her.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: I kept my password to everything I had.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: It's different today, so I could say it, but it was 0528.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't change it.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Even long after I stopped talking to her, I kept it 0528 forever.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: I went to meet my birth mother for the first time last summer.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: You know what her birthday is?
33:15
SPEAKER_00: May 28th, 0528.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: The same number that I just never changed my whole life until several years ago.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: But there you have it.
33:26
SPEAKER_03: You know what's crazy?
33:28
SPEAKER_03: We're recording on that date.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're doing that too.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: And today's 528, also.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: I already actually wished her a happy birthday.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: To be honest, that's so funny.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: My gosh, that is so amazing.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: As you were saying it, I'm like, what's happening?
33:42
SPEAKER_02: I know, I forgot to say to be honest, but yeah, we're on the day.
33:47
SPEAKER_02: That is amazing.
33:48
SPEAKER_03: So reconnecting with all of this has definitely probably changed your understanding of identity and belonging.
33:57
SPEAKER_03: I would love to know how.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: Well, because it has altered the false perception that you have to be what other people want you to be.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: And it was because of that, that's how I lived my entire life.
34:16
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of adoptees always do that.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, why we do that because in the back of our heads, in the bottom of our hearts, we're thinking, what do I do to make this person not leave me?
34:27
SPEAKER_00: And that's really what you do your whole life.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: It had led me to places where I didn't really even care about myself because I was always so worried about just keeping up the show.
34:39
SPEAKER_00: I had ended up in a lot of horrible relationships.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: One was extremely not just mentally abusive, but physically abusive.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: I was almost killed the couple of times.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: I ended up in the hospital.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: And um, but even at that point, the police around me asking me if they can press charges of who my partner was at the time.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I never would have.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: I never gave any info because I'm we're just constantly trying to protect that one person that we do have, even though they were entirely wrong for me.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: But everything was just okay to me.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's okay to treat me like a doormat, it's fine.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: And that is literally how I would go through.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: A changing thing is that like what I just said, is that I am okay being just me.
35:29
SPEAKER_00: And the more that I go down this road of reunion, and it's kind of like they remind me of that, my birth family.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: They're the ones reminding me that all I have to do is be me.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: And it's not always like that, you know.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: And uh, when you first go into a reunion, I mean, look, it there's so many different, you know, things that go through your head, you know, are there intense, genuine, or things like, but I know they are, you know, it's in that for that part, you know, I feel so blessed.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, that's a major thing that's changed.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Is that um yeah, I look people in the eyes.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: Prior to this, I I always had a thing with talking to somebody and actually looking at them in the eyes.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: I I make it a point now, too, when I meet people.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: I want to look at them to see what kind of inflection I can grab from the way that they look.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's one of the reasons that for so many years I always avoided looking people in the eyes because I never really wanted anybody to question how I felt because it was that sad and it was that dark.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: I didn't even want to go there myself.
36:37
SPEAKER_00: How do you avoid that?
36:38
SPEAKER_00: You close the windows, and the eyes are the windows to the soul.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: So that's what I did, and I just avoided it.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: But now that's a great thing that's you know definitely developed.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just I'm just living my life with the intent of being kind, listening to people, because sometimes that's all that a person really needs is to be heard.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: That's something that adoptees for a long time that we never were were given.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: So I try my best to just do these things every day, knowing that's the way that you treat people.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: And if it's anything that's come out of my reunion, it's it just reminds me to be to be grateful, but also not to ignore the very real and darker parts because look, that could save somebody's life.
37:28
SPEAKER_03: You know, that could really be absolutely can.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not ever, I think it's one out of every four adoptees will attempt suicide in their life.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: It's a statistic.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: So that's why I'll share things about yes, at one point it was so bad I I depended on alcohol and just the numb, you know, everything in me.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: I went through the abusive relationships, but it's important to bring them up because I know there's some kid out there that's probably on their way into a similar situation.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: And if by any chance it can ring a bell and say, you know what, you don't have to do it this way.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: You could go this way, then that's the most valuable, you know, reason to do any, to do any of this.
38:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:16
SPEAKER_03: I think we've done a lot of naming of things that society doesn't around adoption already.
38:23
SPEAKER_03: It's it's really one of the purposes why I started this podcast was to illuminate those things.
38:29
SPEAKER_03: I think from your perspective, I would like to know what you feel some of the things transracial adoptees carry that people often completely miss.
38:42
SPEAKER_03: And I think you've talked about some, obviously how you look and the language and and those things.
38:48
SPEAKER_03: But is there anything else that comes to mind that people completely miss?
38:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: And this is good for parents that are interested in adopting a baby from a different country.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: You have to know and you have to be okay with.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: You have to accept it and truly be okay with.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: If you adopt a child from a different country, that one day that child is probably going to want to go to that country.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: They're going to want to see where they're from and the kind of people that live there.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: It's in them.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: You can't take it out of them, you know, and so it's something that people really need to take more seriously.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't create friction or hard feelings or get people angry.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: And even in doing this, I constantly tell my adoptive parents, tell my friends, tell my partner.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: I'll say if you don't understand something, ask me, please.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: I want you to ask me because I know that it's so difficult to grasp in the first place.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: So it's okay.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: But don't walk blindly and just think that everything is all picture perfect because there's another country.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:05
SPEAKER_00: And that's a good thing, though, too.
40:07
SPEAKER_00: You should want, you should know that for a person to be proud of where they're from, that's something that should be nurtured, especially in a kid.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: If they're adopted from a different country, take them to the museum.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: My grandmother, when I was a kid growing up, took me to the museum of art at least a couple of times every month.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: We would go walk around for hours, and she would take me to the area of Mexican art.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: And I would look at the exhibits.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: And there was one exhibit called the Mexican Smiling Man.
40:37
SPEAKER_00: And he just stood there and he smiled.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: And I loved looking at it as a child.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: That's important.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: So keep that in mind.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: That's why there's a word transnational.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: There's a whole other part, just not to ignore it, I would say.
40:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely so important.
40:54
SPEAKER_03: I think you just described what actually happens to a child when they're disconnected from their biological family, when they grow up also disconnected from the language, the culture, the food, the traditions, those mirrors that we don't have, and even the community.
41:11
SPEAKER_03: And it sounds like your grandma, I remember her name was Selma, and that she took you to those places, I think is huge.
41:17
SPEAKER_03: And that's, I think, something that we as adopted people can continue encouraging.
41:22
SPEAKER_03: And I know the Adoptee Mentoring Society does encourage this.
41:27
SPEAKER_03: Oh, is that Selma?
41:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know if you could see it's such an old picture.
41:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he's showing us a picture of Selma, everybody, but no, I can't, I can't see her.
41:35
SPEAKER_03: But I'm sure that's adorable.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, she's always with me.
41:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:42
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
41:43
SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
41:44
SPEAKER_03: So I love what you do as an advocate for the Adopting Mentoring Society.
41:49
SPEAKER_03: It's a part of even what you just talked about.
41:52
SPEAKER_03: And Angela Tucker is the one who founded it.
41:54
SPEAKER_03: She wrote the book You Should Be Grateful.
41:56
SPEAKER_03: It's an excellent book.
41:57
SPEAKER_03: I think everybody should read it.
41:59
SPEAKER_03: Can you share what AMS is and why spaces like that matter?
42:04
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: That's so important.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: I was saying earlier that if I had something like that or podcasts like this during that time in my life, I would have done so many things differently.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: So what we try and do at the mentoring society is to create an outlet where an adoptee can go, where they don't feel misunderstood, where they don't have to overexplain themselves because people just get it.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: That's why we say services are buy adoptees for adoptees.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: If you're an adoptee, you probably can describe an experience in your lifetime where you happen to be out and we meet another adoptee randomly.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: And I could probably count these times on one hand.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: That's how few and far between they are.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: But when that happens, it's like all of a sudden there's a connection.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's almost like you're friends already because you already get and get it.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: And it's such a big thing to get that it's that feeling that you always get when you'll attend an AMS lounge or when you attend one of their events, um, one-to-one mentoring session.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: Those are great too.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying anything should be used as a substitute for therapy.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: I even myself went to therapy for years.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: I can say that this was a great supplement to that and provides a different perspective, one that's less clinical, one that is more intimate.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing with adoptees, is that that's what we really need because we've spent so much of our lives keeping a safe distance from everybody and everything.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: And it's to be able to get close to somebody, to be able to have that trust that the services provide.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: So you can always trust it's a safe space and and you have somebody to talk to.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: And that's the main goal.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Of AMS, making sure that, like I was saying before, that these young adoptees know there's a place they could reach out to before they do something drastic.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: Also for older adoptees or middle-aged adoptees for a place where they can hear stories like mine and or somebody else.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Look, it doesn't always happen at any certain point in somebody's life.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: These things can happen at any time, as far as a reunion.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: So there's always somebody there you could connect to within the community.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: Besides the lounges and mentoring sessions, there's a whole online chat group.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: It really is a place you could step away to be with your people.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: You know, and I think that's a feeling that every now and then it does a lot.
44:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: So that's what we focus on.
44:45
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
44:46
SPEAKER_03: I love the work that you guys are doing.
44:48
SPEAKER_03: I wanted to refer back to your brother because you had mentioned him also being adopted from Mexico, but having a very different relationship to adoption than you.
44:59
SPEAKER_03: I think we can all relate to that dynamic.
45:02
SPEAKER_03: I know my brother doesn't want to have anything to do with coming out of the fog or coming into consciousness.
45:09
SPEAKER_03: And sometimes that's the case.
45:11
SPEAKER_03: There's the acting out adoptee and then the compliant adoptee.
45:15
SPEAKER_03: There's there's a dynamic between siblings, a lot of times, that are adopted.
45:20
SPEAKER_03: What have you learned about how differently adoptees cope?
45:24
SPEAKER_03: How do they process or engage with their stories?
45:27
SPEAKER_03: What is your understanding of that?
45:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean, growing up, my mom would always say, Adam, you were the one that's always asking questions.
45:37
SPEAKER_00: You always had a no.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: And my brother didn't.
45:41
SPEAKER_00: So then the best way to describe it is which is funny because I do consider myself an introvert.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm comfortable speaking about a topic with people and with many people, but I prefer my solitude a lot of the times, which is another great benefit of these resources and doing things like this.
45:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: So what was the initial question though?
46:01
SPEAKER_00: I think I lost track of what I was saying.
46:03
SPEAKER_03: Well, that's okay.
46:03
SPEAKER_03: I just was curious how you learned weed.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: So with my brother, and part of it, listen, it made me sad for several years because I really tried to put myself out there for him, and I always wanted that feeling of having a brother just growing up.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: For we had periods in our life where we were very close, but then it just it got so far apart.
46:27
SPEAKER_00: And the thing is, is that I know where it stems from in him because it's the same thing that I was going through.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: It's just that we're so different in the ways that we that we attacked it, I guess in the sense I could use that word with me, and for him, he just left it like it didn't exist at all for a while.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: And during that time, it started to eat him up.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: And I could see it physically, came out with his health.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: Socially, he just became withdrawn.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: Things that he brings up, like I was mentioning earlier about the adoption agency, um, and doing black market adoptions.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, every now and then he'll bring something up like that, and then it'll away again.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: Maybe he's he never was quite really ready to go there because it is a lot.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: So if you're gonna separate yourself from these things, for me, I always attribute it to letting go of being let go of, is how I would describe it.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: That feeling of being discarded was something that I carried my entire freaking life, and I got to a point where I was just so sick of it because who wants to walk around like that to feel disposable, replace, replaceable, you know.
47:43
SPEAKER_00: So, but that is also a conscious decision.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: Happiness is a choice, and unless you choose it, unless you number one want to choose it, there's really not much anybody can do for you.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: And with adoptees, you can go that route.
48:00
SPEAKER_00: Look, it's a maze, we all know that, and it's a windy, confusing, sometimes dark maze, but the only way out is through.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you just you just are gonna sit there.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying it's wrong, you know, and I'm not saying anything's right.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a choice that you make, and every choice has its results.
48:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it definitely does.
48:23
SPEAKER_03: I think what I take from this is especially depending upon where they are in their consciousness, it's learning how to hold compassion for them that may not be ready to explore the way that we were, and knowing that that compassion may be the door or the window.
48:40
SPEAKER_03: And I know you even said when we recorded the first time that that's kind of what you're doing.
48:45
SPEAKER_03: You may not be actually having conversations with him at all right now, but the door's open and you're willing to keep that door open and have the compassion's experience.
48:55
SPEAKER_00: So I mean, in a way, I mean it's bittersweet, and I'll just be honest, like now that I have Miguelito, my brother in Mexico, we have developed such a great I've never felt like this in my life as far as with siblings, my sister too.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: I never had that, and it's honestly that was a big part that I was wow, I didn't even know I was missing this.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: We talk every day, and it just it is kind of crappy to say I have this relationship with with my birth siblings now and and my brother that I grew up with, it's non-existent.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you could say it's nurture versus nature, maybe it's a little bit of both.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't like to think it's it it's like that because I I still like to believe that who cares if he has my blood.
49:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we were still brothers, we still have this one thing in common, but it just so happened Migalito's the kind of guy, it's it's just he's all open arms and he's just tries to understand me.
49:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why we he was also very close with Israel.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: Funny enough, he was extremely close with Israel, and um so maybe we just naturally clicked, but it's a good feeling, and I want to be happy.
50:05
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is a good feeling, and I I think something you said is really important.
50:08
SPEAKER_03: It's something that I hold time hold on to when it comes to even my adopted family and my birth family.
50:14
SPEAKER_03: I have one sibling from my maternal and three siblings from my paternal, and then I have my adopted brother.
50:22
SPEAKER_03: So I have a total of five, but I always get some interesting comments from them.
50:28
SPEAKER_03: And so one of the things that I've learned to say is I don't expect you to understand.
50:33
SPEAKER_03: I don't because how could you?
50:35
SPEAKER_03: You're not in my shoes.
50:37
SPEAKER_03: But what I do expect is that you'll accept my lived experience.
50:41
SPEAKER_03: If you can do that, then we'll be fine.
50:44
SPEAKER_03: I I don't expect you to get it.
50:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I really don't.
50:48
SPEAKER_03: And so I think that's helped me a lot.
50:50
SPEAKER_03: Because then if I lower my expectations, not because I think less of them, it's just I realize they can't get it.
50:58
SPEAKER_03: And that's okay.
51:00
SPEAKER_03: So that helps me personally.
51:02
SPEAKER_03: But I love it.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: Literally the other day, the same thing with my sister, exactly what you just said.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: I had to say to her.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: It was it was about we weren't arguing or anything, but I did say exactly what you said.
51:14
SPEAKER_00: I was like, Daniela, I know you're not gonna get it.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: If I didn't know that, I probably would have been a little bit more upset about this one particular thing, but I know you don't get it.
51:23
SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
51:24
SPEAKER_00: At least you're asking, you know, and that's all that I want.
51:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:28
SPEAKER_03: So totally, absolutely.
51:30
SPEAKER_03: So switching gears a little bit as we begin to wind down, there is something that I want to touch on because I've mentioned this to you before, but I have noticed how male representation in adoptee spaces is much less percentage-wise than female.
51:45
SPEAKER_03: And I'm curious, do you think that there are unique pressures around emotion, identity, and vulnerability and grief when it comes to being a male adopted person?
51:55
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: I think with men in general, you're you're always gonna have that.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: For me, it's kind of even more interesting.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, because when I was growing up and at the stage of my life where I was contemplating coming out as gay, um versus I'm keeping 100% honest, versus what was going on inside of me with being an adoptee.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: Coming out as being a gay man was nothing to me.
52:27
SPEAKER_00: It really didn't, it failed in comparison.
52:30
SPEAKER_00: It was almost like, oh, well, who I mean cares when I'm trying to figure out all this stuff, which is driving me nuts.
52:37
SPEAKER_00: So it really was like the comparison.
52:39
SPEAKER_00: I tell people that sometimes, and not everybody actually really likes it, because if you tell like community that and they go through the stories, like, oh yeah, it's a hard thing to do.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm not saying that it's not, you know, for some people, but I'm just saying in comparison for me, um, you know, it was much more difficult.
52:55
SPEAKER_00: And I think that, you know, just as far as being a male, I think in or it to be able to take your emotions and and analyze them in a forum for the purpose of working with people is helping people, that's pretty masculine, you know what I mean, in itself.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: That's security, that's saying that you're secure with what you're feeling.
53:19
SPEAKER_00: But there's always gonna be that stigma about about it.
53:22
SPEAKER_00: And the thing is, I think male or female, the experience with going through a a reunion has just changed me in the way that it's fine.
53:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm not here to please anybody anymore.
53:36
SPEAKER_00: If I feel a certain way and you're gonna get something from it, it's great.
53:41
SPEAKER_00: If you don't, that's okay too.
53:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna push anything on you either.
53:44
SPEAKER_00: But I'm not gonna cover anything up anymore like I used to.
53:48
SPEAKER_00: It's it's gonna be either I speak my truth or I don't speak at all.
53:52
SPEAKER_00: That's the way that's gotta be.
53:55
SPEAKER_03: No, I appreciate that so much.
53:57
SPEAKER_03: So for the transracial andor transnational adoptee listening who feels disconnected, unseen, or culturally untethered, what would you want them to know?
54:09
SPEAKER_00: I would want to encourage their curiosity and to accept that it is natural, it is okay.
54:18
SPEAKER_00: Nothing has to be mutually exclusive.
54:21
SPEAKER_00: We're not contractually held down to one side or another side.
54:27
SPEAKER_00: We are, just by being, a dichotomy.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: And in a way, that's an amazing thing.
54:33
SPEAKER_00: Also, something that, you know, is not very common.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: So don't neglect either side.
54:39
SPEAKER_00: Look into the history of your country where you were from, look into the language.
54:44
SPEAKER_00: There's so many great apps.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: Study the language, watch TV in that language, read a book in that language, look at the art.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: That's to me is such an important part of culture.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: Go to a museum and go to the part of the world and look at the kind of art that they're doing.
55:00
SPEAKER_00: And you'll see the way, you'll see the heart of the people when you look at that.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: Just don't lose that value, I would say.
55:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love that so much.
55:09
SPEAKER_03: And what I love too about what you just said is you talked about don't lose curiosity.
55:14
SPEAKER_03: I literally just recorded an episode that was released today about curiosity.
55:19
SPEAKER_03: So I find that fascinating that you just said that, but it's definitely something that I feel like it something we need to learn to cultivate as adopted people.
55:28
SPEAKER_03: Because a lot of times our curiosity has been pushed down, shut down.
55:32
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's so important for us to not allow that, to allow ourselves to really explore.
55:38
SPEAKER_03: So thank you for saying that.
55:39
SPEAKER_03: You just affirm something that I just really thought.
55:42
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
55:43
SPEAKER_02: I agree with that.
55:45
SPEAKER_03: I know, I'm telling you.
55:47
SPEAKER_03: Well, Adam, thank you so much for this conversation.
55:50
SPEAKER_03: I appreciate so much your willingness to stay curious.
55:54
SPEAKER_03: I mean, seriously, that's what you've done.
55:57
SPEAKER_03: And not just with your own story, but with the larger systems, patterns, and experiences surrounding adoption that often remain hidden or unnamed.
56:07
SPEAKER_03: And honestly, I think one of the most powerful things that adoptees can do is begin putting language to what has gone unseen for so long.
56:15
SPEAKER_03: And you're doing that.
56:17
SPEAKER_03: And this conversation also reminded me that adoption is never just about paperwork or placement.
56:24
SPEAKER_03: It's about identity, it's about culture, body memory, loss, grief, longing, connection, disconnection, all those things that we experience.
56:33
SPEAKER_03: And for transracial and transnational adoptees, especially, I am finding there can be additional layers of complexity surrounding mirrors, community, the language we talked about, homeland, the stuff you said, explore, the cultural connection that deserves so much more understanding than they often receive, hence the reason why I want to have these conversations.
56:54
SPEAKER_03: And I also really appreciated that we touched on the spectrum of the adoptee experience, because not everybody processes their story the same way.
57:04
SPEAKER_03: Some people search, some people avoid, like we talked about.
57:07
SPEAKER_03: There's the difference there.
57:08
SPEAKER_03: Some advocate, some stay silent.
57:11
SPEAKER_03: And none of those responses happen in a vacuum.
57:14
SPEAKER_03: They all make sense in context of what someone's nervous system has lived through.
57:19
SPEAKER_03: So if you're listening today and parts of this conversation stirred something in you, I hope that you will stay curious with yourself, that you will not be judgmental.
57:30
SPEAKER_03: Because sometimes healing begins not when we force answers, but when we finally allow ourselves to acknowledge the questions.
57:38
SPEAKER_03: So I'm really glad all y'all have been here with me.
57:41
SPEAKER_03: And Adam, thank you so much for being with me.
57:44
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
57:45
SPEAKER_00: It's great.
57:47
SPEAKER_03: It's been wonderful, and we'll see you guys next Thursday.
57:50
SPEAKER_03: Have a good one.
57:53
SPEAKER_03: If you've been listening to this podcast episode and finding yourself thinking, wow, this explains so much, I want to personally invite you to my next Revelation Live experience starting Monday, July 27th.
58:09
SPEAKER_03: This is a gentle, adopte-centered seven-day experience where we begin exploring the patterns, beliefs, and survival responses many of us have carried for years through the lens of self-awareness, thematic reflection, and belonging.
58:26
SPEAKER_03: You'll receive daily teaching, gentle, guided practices, and access to our private WhatsApp community.
58:33
SPEAKER_03: Because you are never meant to figure this out alone, and healing doesn't begin by fixing yourself, it begins by finally understanding yourself.
58:43
SPEAKER_03: You can find the link to join in the show notes.