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Church Starting · The Don't Pastor Alone Podcast

• 0:04
  Bob Bumgarner: Welcome to the Don't Pastor Alone podcast, where we connect pastors and churches
• 0:08
  Bob Bumgarner: with trusted people and practical resources so they don't pastor alone.
• 0:12
  Bob Bumgarner: I'm Bob Bumgarner, and I'm here today in the ministry garage with Jimbo Stewart and Darren Sullivan.
• 0:18
  JimBo Stewart: Man, I'm excited to be back in the ministry garage recording with you, Bob.
• 0:20
  Darren Sullivan: Man, it's great to be here, Bob. I feel like I've made the big time being on
• 0:24
  Darren Sullivan: this podcast with the esteemed Jimbo Stewart and Bob Bumgarner.
• 0:28
  Darren Sullivan: It feels like I've been drafted into the NFL. So thank you for having me, guys.
• 0:32
  Bob Bumgarner: Let's see how the first season goes.
• 0:34
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, right?
• 0:36
  JimBo Stewart: But maybe LSU will try to get you on their team as well, once you've had some NFL time.
• 0:42
  JimBo Stewart: So today, Bob, we're going to begin a conversation about one of the four ministry
• 0:46
  JimBo Stewart: pathways that First Coast Churches does, starting churches specifically in this episode.
• 0:51
  JimBo Stewart: Whether you're a church planter, sending church, supporting church,
• 0:55
  JimBo Stewart: or simply just wondering why do we need more churches?
• 0:59
  JimBo Stewart: Do we need more churches? This episode is going to be for you.
• 1:02
  JimBo Stewart: So today, we have Darren Sullivan.
• 1:04
  JimBo Stewart: On this episode, Darren is a missional strategist for First Coast Churches who
• 1:06
  JimBo Stewart: oversees the church starting pathway.
• 1:11
  JimBo Stewart: So Darren, some people, when they hear church planting, the main kind of objection
• 1:16
  JimBo Stewart: question we seem to get off the jump, especially in the South,
• 1:20
  JimBo Stewart: is don't we already have enough churches?
• 1:24
  JimBo Stewart: I mean, there's certainly neighborhoods you drive through and you're like,
• 1:27
  JimBo Stewart: church building, church building.
• 1:28
  Bob Bumgarner: Church building.
• 1:29
  JimBo Stewart: It's like on every corner. So why do we talk about starting new churches?
• 1:34
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah.
• 1:35
  Darren Sullivan: So the answer to your first question, don't we have enough churches, is an emphatic no.
• 1:39
  Darren Sullivan: And the reason why is because, and you guys know this, right?
• 1:43
  Darren Sullivan: Lost people matter to God.
• 1:46
  Darren Sullivan: Lostness matters to God. And I don't know about you guys, but you can fact check
• 1:50
  Darren Sullivan: me on this. Last time I looked, the Great Commission, it still isn't finished, right?
• 1:54
  JimBo Stewart: Yes.
• 1:55
  Darren Sullivan: And so we've still got work to do. And yeah, it's just lots of opportunity,
• 2:00
  Darren Sullivan: lots of growth, and there's new neighborhoods popping up everywhere.
• 2:04
  Darren Sullivan: There's new generations coming to Christ.
• 2:07
  Darren Sullivan: New cultures are showing up. And here's the thing, guys, every church has a
• 2:11
  Darren Sullivan: unique mission field to serve those people. And one of the phrases that I like
• 2:16
  Darren Sullivan: to say is that lostness, not competition, is what drives church planting.
• 2:21
  Darren Sullivan: We should focus on lostness and not competition.
• 2:24
  Bob Bumgarner: You know, Darren, one of the things that we talk about is how they're in the
• 2:29
  Bob Bumgarner: first coast, Northeast Florida, You could say that we have a lot of ethnicities,
• 2:34
  Bob Bumgarner: but what really seems to drive our culture here is not the ethnicities as much
• 2:39
  Bob Bumgarner: as we have a beach culture, we have an urban culture, we have a suburban culture and a rural culture.
• 2:45
  Bob Bumgarner: And so we really do need different kinds of churches in each one of those kinds of cultures.
• 2:51
  Bob Bumgarner: So context is king, is one of the opportunities that we have for trying to help
• 2:58
  Bob Bumgarner: people have a church that meets their need with the gospel.
• 3:01
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, definitely. Absolutely.
• 3:03
  JimBo Stewart: I think another objection or question that sometimes people bring up is,
• 3:06
  JimBo Stewart: shouldn't we just focus on strengthening the churches that we have,
• 3:09
  JimBo Stewart: the existing churches, instead of planting new ones? How would you answer that?
• 3:15
  Darren Sullivan: I mean, it's a great question, Jim. I think the answer, though,
• 3:17
  Darren Sullivan: is both. It's not an either or. It's rather a both and.
• 3:22
  Darren Sullivan: You know, a healthy kingdom ecosystem needs both healthy existing churches and healthy new churches.
• 3:29
  Darren Sullivan: And the great thing about what we do here at First Coast Church is we serve
• 3:32
  Darren Sullivan: both those areas. I mean, you're in that lane of revitalization,
• 3:36
  Darren Sullivan: replanting. I'm in the lane of church planting, church starting,
• 3:39
  Darren Sullivan: and then Bob oversees all of it.
• 3:42
  Darren Sullivan: But, I mean, I think both are important. And here's the thing.
• 3:46
  Darren Sullivan: Planting and revitalization are not competitors. They're teammates.
• 3:51
  Darren Sullivan: Now, if I take this on a practical level, maybe, you know, on the football field,
• 3:55
  Darren Sullivan: for instance, you're wearing your LSU hat.
• 3:58
  Darren Sullivan: And if I was to think like my favorite football team, the Georgia Bulldogs,
• 4:02
  Darren Sullivan: right? God's favorite team. And then plays your team.
• 4:05
  Darren Sullivan: Well, there should be some healthy competition.
• 4:07
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
• 4:08
  Darren Sullivan: But we need to leave the competition to the ball fields.
• 4:11
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
• 4:11
  Darren Sullivan: And we need to collaborate and pray for one another, encourage one another.
• 4:15
  Darren Sullivan: Both can exist in God's economy.
• 4:17
  Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. And building on that, I think the idea is that we need to increase the
• 4:23
  Bob Bumgarner: birth rate of new churches and decrease the death rate of existing churches.
• 4:29
  Bob Bumgarner: But you know, guys, one of the things that is hard to hear, but it's true,
• 4:33
  Bob Bumgarner: is that churches are not eternal. The kingdom is eternal. Churches have life cycles.
• 4:38
  Bob Bumgarner: And a church that has ignored its community for a number of years may not have a future.
• 4:44
  Bob Bumgarner: You know, part of revitalization is not just an organizational renewal,
• 4:49
  Bob Bumgarner: but it's helping people make disciples where they are with the people that God has placed around them.
• 4:54
  Bob Bumgarner: So I think the key thing to remember is we're talking about disciple-making,
• 5:00
  Bob Bumgarner: at the core, either through a new church plant that's probably going to reach new people,
• 5:06
  Bob Bumgarner: or an existing church plant that has some great commission, or I'm sorry,
• 5:11
  Bob Bumgarner: an existing church that probably has some kingdom assets that need to be refocused
• 5:17
  Bob Bumgarner: toward disciple-making instead of ministry maintenance.
• 5:20
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah. What would you say, Bob, to the church that is existing and struggling
• 5:24
  JimBo Stewart: and they hear about church plant in the community,
• 5:28
  JimBo Stewart: and they hear us say, it's not about competition, but their first reaction,
• 5:33
  JimBo Stewart: their first thought is, man, it feels like you're kind of in my,
• 5:36
  JimBo Stewart: quote unquote, my territory and in my area.
• 5:40
  JimBo Stewart: What would you say to that pastor?
• 5:42
  Bob Bumgarner: Well, somebody has recently said, and I'd give attribution if I could remember,
• 5:47
  Bob Bumgarner: but our mindset has to be kingdom over castle.
• 5:51
  Bob Bumgarner: It has to be the kingdom over territory. And so what I would say is I know what
• 5:56
  Bob Bumgarner: it feels like, but that doesn't let you off the hook for what you're supposed
• 6:00
  Bob Bumgarner: to be doing at your particular church.
• 6:02
  Bob Bumgarner: There was a statistic in the early 2000s that said you could plant a church,
• 6:09
  Bob Bumgarner: next to every church that needs to be revitalized in our convention,
• 6:14
  Bob Bumgarner: and that church plant would grow.
• 6:16
  Bob Bumgarner: Now, I think that's maybe a
• 6:18
  Bob Bumgarner: truism more than a principle, but the point I want to make based on your,
• 6:24
  Bob Bumgarner: to answer your question, is I think that's where the association is uniquely
• 6:30
  Bob Bumgarner: gifted to come alongside a church that has the presence of mind to ask that
• 6:34
  Bob Bumgarner: question and then let us help you redream the dream.
• 6:38
  Bob Bumgarner: Let us help you figure out, given who you are and where the historical moment
• 6:44
  Bob Bumgarner: that the community is in, how do we once again begin to make disciples?
• 6:49
  Bob Bumgarner: And if it's true, and it is, that the normative-sized church in the Southern
• 6:52
  Bob Bumgarner: Baptist Convention is between 70 and 100, I mean, this is doable.
• 6:57
  Bob Bumgarner: We can do that. We can revitalize. Every church can be revitalized if they have
• 7:01
  Bob Bumgarner: the right mindset and willingness.
• 7:04
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And ultimately, Darren, would you say there are enough lost people in
• 7:09
  JimBo Stewart: that community for both churches to thrive?
• 7:13
  Darren Sullivan: Absolutely.
• 7:14
  Darren Sullivan: We need all size churches, all different unique churches to reach people where
• 7:19
  Darren Sullivan: they live, work, play, and study. And the bottom line is this,
• 7:22
  Darren Sullivan: and I think, Bob, you shared the numbers the other day at a lunch.
• 7:25
  Darren Sullivan: How many people total? We have like 1 million in Jacksonville.
• 7:28
  Bob Bumgarner: We have about 1.7 million.
• 7:30
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah. And then you said something like there's 400,000 people in churches,
• 7:34
  Darren Sullivan: but there's over 600,000 people who are not churches.
• 7:37
  Bob Bumgarner: That are unclaimed by the- Unclaimed. Yeah, they have not self-declared what
• 7:41
  Bob Bumgarner: they're aligned with, whether it's a Christian belief or any other belief.
• 7:44
  Bob Bumgarner: They're just totally unattached from a church.
• 7:47
  Bob Bumgarner: So in Jacksonville, we have a third of our neighbors easily that are not claimed with anybody.
• 7:52
  JimBo Stewart: Plenty to go around.
• 7:53
  Bob Bumgarner: Half a million.
• 7:53
  Darren Sullivan: Plenty. Plenty. I mean, we need more new church plants and more churches revitalized.
• 7:57
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah, both. And if both thrive, there's still going to be a lot of lost people in that community.
• 8:02
  Darren Sullivan: That's right. That's right. Yeah.
• 8:03
  JimBo Stewart: So when we talk about church planters, what kind of person are we thinking of
• 8:10
  JimBo Stewart: that should consider church planting?
• 8:12
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a, you know, they're certainly not superheroes.
• 8:17
  Darren Sullivan: Sometimes people look at church planters and they think they have this like
• 8:21
  Darren Sullivan: special and unique, you know, calling or whatever.
• 8:25
  Darren Sullivan: And there's no doubt there is a calling there and there's a gifting,
• 8:27
  Darren Sullivan: but they're not superheroes. They're not always younger guys.
• 8:31
  Darren Sullivan: They can be middle-aged guys like me and you, Jimbo. They can be older guys.
• 8:35
  Darren Sullivan: I won't mention anybody else, but we'll leave it at that.
• 8:38
  Darren Sullivan: They definitely need to be gifted. They need to have the ability to lead something,
• 8:43
  Darren Sullivan: the ability to start and build something or to grow something.
• 8:47
  Darren Sullivan: Another thing I think they need to have is they need to have a missionary mindset.
• 8:51
  Darren Sullivan: How am I going to get out into the community and reach people and introduce
• 8:55
  Darren Sullivan: people to Jesus and invite them to church? I've always said this.
• 8:58
  Darren Sullivan: You can administrate a church behind a computer or laptop, but you can't lead
• 9:02
  Darren Sullivan: a church from behind a laptop. So you've got to get out there.
• 9:06
  Darren Sullivan: A couple of things, a vision for the community that they're planted in,
• 9:09
  Darren Sullivan: a vision for the kingdom, vision for getting people connected into healthy groups,
• 9:16
  Darren Sullivan: fellowship there. They need to be relatively healthy. They need to, not perfect.
• 9:21
  Darren Sullivan: There's no such thing as a perfect church planter, but they need to have a healthy
• 9:24
  Darren Sullivan: marriage, healthy family overall.
• 9:27
  Darren Sullivan: They need to be able to be developed, coachable, teachable. Anything else you would add to that, Bob?
• 9:32
  Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, I think I want to go to the negative side of this. What kind of person is it not?
• 9:38
  Bob Bumgarner: It's not the kind of person that says, you know what? I'm tired of the traditional church.
• 9:43
  Bob Bumgarner: I'm going to go and start something. At the end of the day, church planting
• 9:48
  Bob Bumgarner: is not, you can't plant a church if you're running from something.
• 9:52
  Bob Bumgarner: You've got to run to a community. There's got to be a group of people that you
• 9:57
  Bob Bumgarner: love, that you care about, that you understand, that you would adjust to in
• 10:02
  Bob Bumgarner: some of your methodology if it made you more effective in reaching them.
• 10:06
  JimBo Stewart: It's gonna go back to what we
• 10:07
  JimBo Stewart: said earlier about this is not about competition, but a kingdom mindset.
• 10:11
  JimBo Stewart: So don't go in if it's about competitiveness. I'm gonna be better than that
• 10:16
  JimBo Stewart: church. I'm gonna beat that church. But if it's about a kingdom mindset.
• 10:20
  Darren Sullivan: I think God honors that. I think God honors, we wanna see his kingdom growth
• 10:25
  Darren Sullivan: and it's not about, can I be better or bigger or all that stuff?
• 10:28
  Darren Sullivan: Like, I mean, I get it. Everybody goes through those things,
• 10:30
  Darren Sullivan: but let's honor God and let's do what he told us to do and go reach people for his glory.
• 10:34
  Bob Bumgarner: One of the things I'm excited about from NAMM and North American Mission Board,
• 10:39
  Bob Bumgarner: and just in our conversations is that it also shouldn't be the person who wants
• 10:46
  Bob Bumgarner: to plant a worship service.
• 10:48
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, that's good.
• 10:48
  Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, you're planting a church.
• 10:52
  Bob Bumgarner: You're planting a disciple-making organism.
• 10:54
  Bob Bumgarner: So, and Darren hinted at this earlier, go in and make disciples.
• 10:58
  Bob Bumgarner: And when you make disciples, then meet with them, do things,
• 11:01
  Bob Bumgarner: serve the community and then eventually a congregation will rise up out of that. I think the days of,
• 11:09
  Bob Bumgarner: Just going in and planting a worship service, I'm not saying that that's evil.
• 11:13
  Bob Bumgarner: I'm just saying we're seeing that churches, that communities are more easily
• 11:19
  Bob Bumgarner: able to ignore a worship service than they are a group of people committed to
• 11:24
  Bob Bumgarner: serving a particular context.
• 11:26
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, and I mean, to affirm that, we've heard it said over and over,
• 11:29
  Darren Sullivan: but engage the community, make disciples, and then from that, plant the church.
• 11:36
  Darren Sullivan: The old way of throwing a mailer out there and trying to have a Sunday service and have people show up.
• 11:41
  Darren Sullivan: I mean, it worked. I understand that, but it's a whole different ballgame out
• 11:45
  Darren Sullivan: there. And truth of the matter is, is that what we should have been doing from
• 11:48
  Darren Sullivan: the beginning anyways? We need to engage with the community,
• 11:51
  Darren Sullivan: make disciples and make disciples. And from there, let's launch and plant a
• 11:55
  Darren Sullivan: church in that community.
• 11:56
  Bob Bumgarner: Yeah.
• 11:56
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And I would even flip that in the church revitalization world.
• 12:00
  JimBo Stewart: It's much the same thing, right?
• 12:02
  JimBo Stewart: No longer can you just have a good worship service and just pastor a good worship
• 12:07
  JimBo Stewart: service and hope that your church is going to become healthy and grow.
• 12:10
  JimBo Stewart: You're going to have to move out of a competitive mindset into a kingdom mindset on mission.
• 12:17
  JimBo Stewart: And one of the ways that you can help your church practice that muscle,
• 12:22
  JimBo Stewart: not the only way, but one of the ways is becoming ascending or supporting church.
• 12:27
  JimBo Stewart: So let's talk to the guys listening that they're probably never going to plant
• 12:32
  JimBo Stewart: a church, but what's the role in this,
• 12:36
  JimBo Stewart: for the pastor or a ministry leader in just an existing established church?
• 12:44
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, you know, they can absolutely be a part of it by supporting,
• 12:48
  Darren Sullivan: by praying first and foremost, praying that, you know, another church in that
• 12:53
  Darren Sullivan: community would show up and reach the lost people that are still there.
• 12:56
  Darren Sullivan: They can give. They can give finances. They can give equipment.
• 13:01
  Darren Sullivan: Sound equipment is a great way to help another church plant.
• 13:05
  Darren Sullivan: They can give furniture, chairs.
• 13:07
  Darren Sullivan: They can give stuff that, you know, are still relatively in good use,
• 13:10
  Darren Sullivan: but they could give that. They could give a trailer to a portable church plant.
• 13:15
  Darren Sullivan: Coaching, they can help coach that. So there's many ways that they can help
• 13:19
  Darren Sullivan: support a church if they're not actually planting a church themselves.
• 13:23
  Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, and in addition to all those things that you can actually make it to where
• 13:27
  Bob Bumgarner: the sending church, it does all those things he just said are necessary.
• 13:31
  Bob Bumgarner: But a way that actually helps the sending church is send your youth group to do a VBS.
• 13:38
  Bob Bumgarner: I mean, do micro, if it's in the city, same city, I just made this up,
• 13:42
  Bob Bumgarner: but like a micro mission trip, like do something that mobilizes your people
• 13:47
  Bob Bumgarner: to serve that congregation.
• 13:49
  Bob Bumgarner: And that'll animate that missionary calling that's in them.
• 13:53
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, collaborate together, work together on an Easter egg outreach together,
• 13:57
  Darren Sullivan: do an Easter sunrise service together, do a Christmas Eve service together,
• 14:01
  Darren Sullivan: whatever. There's many ways that they can partner together. And that just shows
• 14:05
  Darren Sullivan: kingdom mindedness right there.
• 14:06
  JimBo Stewart: In that kingdom-mindedness, what would you say don't pastor alone looks like,
• 14:12
  JimBo Stewart: for the church planter and the legacy church in that same community?
• 14:18
  JimBo Stewart: How do those pastors don't pastor alone?
• 14:20
  Darren Sullivan: Yes.
• 14:21
  Bob Bumgarner: Well, this is what I say. We don't trust people we don't know,
• 14:27
  Bob Bumgarner: and we don't collaborate with people we don't trust.
• 14:30
  Bob Bumgarner: So at the end of the day, it starts with a cup of coffee. Pastors that are serving
• 14:33
  Bob Bumgarner: the same area need to actually know each other.
• 14:38
  Bob Bumgarner: I think as we talk, one of the things that I think that I'm learning in this
• 14:42
  Bob Bumgarner: role is that we're kind of the gap spotters. Where are the gaps?
• 14:46
  Bob Bumgarner: Where do two churches,
• 14:48
  Bob Bumgarner: Where's some place that's not being served? So, and because these two churches
• 14:53
  Bob Bumgarner: are two miles apart, there might be something that they could do together that
• 14:56
  Bob Bumgarner: neither one of them would have thought to do alone.
• 15:00
  Bob Bumgarner: The way that I was actually talking to Mark Halleck the other day, the idea is this,
• 15:07
  Bob Bumgarner: collaboration allows, so love sees the gap, collaboration fills the gap.
• 15:14
  Bob Bumgarner: And so that's what, that's kind of what we're always trying to do.
• 15:16
  Bob Bumgarner: Where are the food deserts? Where are the church deserts?
• 15:19
  Bob Bumgarner: Where is the kingdom not really present?
• 15:23
  Bob Bumgarner: And then how can we help churches see that so that they collaborate together?
• 15:27
  Bob Bumgarner: It don't, so they don't pastor alone together in that.
• 15:30
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And if they want to hear Mark Halleck talk more about things like that,
• 15:35
  JimBo Stewart: October 22nd is our- Yeah.
• 15:38
  Bob Bumgarner: He'll be here at the collective. It'll be at Chess Creek Church from 930 to noon.
• 15:43
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
• 15:43
  Bob Bumgarner: And you're welcome to come. Go to the website and register so we can buy you lunch.
• 15:47
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
• 15:48
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah. And back to that, don't pastor alone. That was some great points that
• 15:50
  Darren Sullivan: Bob made. And I would just think that we've got to remember that we have a very
• 15:54
  Darren Sullivan: real enemy in this thing.
• 15:55
  Darren Sullivan: And the enemy He loves to come steal, kill, and destroy. He would love to isolate pastors, both existing,
• 16:03
  Darren Sullivan: churches and pastors of church plants and get them insulated and isolated and
• 16:08
  Darren Sullivan: just think everything's about them or woe is me kind of a deal.
• 16:12
  Darren Sullivan: Don't do that. That's what don't pastor alone means. Get out of the silo,
• 16:16
  Darren Sullivan: work together, and let's collaborate for kingdom growth and kingdom health and
• 16:20
  Darren Sullivan: make our community and our churches much better.
• 16:24
  Bob Bumgarner: You know, I was in relationship to that. I don't want us to forget just the
• 16:28
  Bob Bumgarner: daily grind that a pastor goes through.
• 16:32
  Bob Bumgarner: I'm not going to say any names, but there's a church plant that's currently
• 16:35
  Bob Bumgarner: being planted in our city that there is Satan's having a little bit of a field
• 16:40
  Bob Bumgarner: day, spreading lies, things that are not true.
• 16:45
  Bob Bumgarner: But here's the thing, that particular planter, we can't unring what somebody
• 16:50
  Bob Bumgarner: wants to do destructively, but we can be the phone call, and we are being the phone call.
• 16:56
  Bob Bumgarner: And I was talking to a very large church pastor in our city yesterday,
• 17:00
  Bob Bumgarner: and there is a unique stress related to...
• 17:05
  Bob Bumgarner: Some stuff going on on the team there that you could say is the enemy at work again.
• 17:11
  Bob Bumgarner: And so it's not just the enemies, to Darren's point, the enemies at work.
• 17:16
  Darren Sullivan: Yes.
• 17:17
  Bob Bumgarner: And we really do need to stand shoulder to shoulder, just like in those nature
• 17:23
  Bob Bumgarner: where the wildebeest all get shoulder to shoulder and then face off the lion
• 17:28
  Bob Bumgarner: or the hyenas or whatever.
• 17:30
  Bob Bumgarner: I mean, I'm not saying you're a wildebeest, but I think there's a principle there.
• 17:35
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, if they can get you isolated and alone, you're fair game and the enemy
• 17:40
  Darren Sullivan: will take you down. And so, yeah, it's important.
• 17:43
  Darren Sullivan: Collaborate, reach out, don't pastor alone.
• 17:47
  JimBo Stewart: So I don't think the enemy actually minds if we plant churches.
• 17:50
  JimBo Stewart: I think the enemy minds if we plant healthy churches.
• 17:52
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah.
• 17:53
  JimBo Stewart: Darren, you've worked with a lot of church planters. What separates healthy
• 17:57
  JimBo Stewart: church plants from unhealthy ones?
• 18:00
  Bob Bumgarner: That's a great question.
• 18:01
  Darren Sullivan: I would say, first and foremost, that pastor, that they have an established
• 18:07
  Darren Sullivan: daily, and again, I want to say daily walk with God, a dependency on the Holy Spirit.
• 18:13
  Darren Sullivan: Because again, you guys know the grind, it's relentless, the emails,
• 18:19
  Darren Sullivan: the sermon preparation, the raising funds, the casting vision, the pastoral care.
• 18:25
  Darren Sullivan: But we've really got to remember that we've got to be in a daily walk with God.
• 18:30
  Darren Sullivan: Dependency on his Holy Spirit.
• 18:33
  Darren Sullivan: We got to remember that we're not just starting 501c3 organizations.
• 18:36
  Darren Sullivan: Yes, there's a part of it, but this is a spiritual thing. And so that's the
• 18:41
  Darren Sullivan: difference, I think, that separates healthy ones from ones that are just getting
• 18:44
  Darren Sullivan: along. And again, I know you guys talk about falling back in love with Jesus
• 18:48
  Darren Sullivan: and revitalization. It all starts there.
• 18:52
  Darren Sullivan: There's other things that go into that. There's some practicals,
• 18:54
  Darren Sullivan: of course. We want somebody with a healthy marriage.
• 18:59
  Darren Sullivan: You know, they've been assessed. The SEND Network helps us with assessment.
• 19:03
  Darren Sullivan: We want somebody to have a clear vision, and those are some things that we can
• 19:07
  Darren Sullivan: help them with at the association.
• 19:08
  Darren Sullivan: Bob, we work with planters and pastors all the time, helping them with a vision
• 19:13
  Darren Sullivan: frame, a mission, vision, values, DNA for those things.
• 19:17
  Darren Sullivan: And those are all important. They need to have a clear discipleship-making pathway,
• 19:23
  Darren Sullivan: because everybody who comes to their church is asking the question,
• 19:27
  Darren Sullivan: can I grow here? What is my next steps?
• 19:30
  Darren Sullivan: So anything else that you wanted to add to that, Bob?
• 19:32
  Bob Bumgarner: Um, healthy marriage, the, all the things that happen in the personal walk eventually
• 19:41
  Bob Bumgarner: bleed over into the life, into the life of the church.
• 19:45
  Bob Bumgarner: So you won't be able to, to fake it.
• 19:48
  Bob Bumgarner: I really do admire the grit of a lot of the ministry wives that I meet.
• 19:54
  Bob Bumgarner: They go, they, they, I mean, they're on the front lines, they're working hard,
• 19:57
  Bob Bumgarner: they're supporting their husbands.
• 19:59
  Bob Bumgarner: So we really do need to encourage those church planters to stay.
• 20:04
  Bob Bumgarner: We'll talk about this in the pastoral wellness piece that we're going to do
• 20:08
  Bob Bumgarner: in a little while. But the idea of,
• 20:12
  Bob Bumgarner: we have to take care of our whole self, our body, our mind, our soul,
• 20:17
  Bob Bumgarner: our marriage, our family.
• 20:19
  JimBo Stewart: So I think one of the reasons people don't understand why ministry is so hard
• 20:23
  JimBo Stewart: for church planters, there's just a lot of misconceptions.
• 20:27
  JimBo Stewart: What are some of the misconceptions or the myths that you've seen people believe about church planting?
• 20:35
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, there's a lot of them out there, of course. One of the things that I was
• 20:38
  Darren Sullivan: thinking about is some people think, and this is a misconception, right?
• 20:43
  Darren Sullivan: Bigger is better or maybe smaller is better, but the truth is healthy is better.
• 20:49
  Darren Sullivan: And you've got to be able to grow at a pace that God sustains you.
• 20:53
  Darren Sullivan: You've got to stay away from the comparison trap. You got to realize that you're
• 20:57
  Darren Sullivan: not in this to compare yourself and your journey to what,
• 21:02
  Darren Sullivan: God is doing down the street there. There's a lot of misconceptions about that.
• 21:06
  Darren Sullivan: People sometimes think that it's just for young pastors. Well,
• 21:10
  Darren Sullivan: that's not the truth. That's a misconception.
• 21:12
  Darren Sullivan: I mean, if God calls you to plant a church and you've had a good discussion
• 21:16
  Darren Sullivan: with your pastor and you've been assessed and everything, well,
• 21:19
  Darren Sullivan: you need to obey that call. So again, that can be a misconception.
• 21:24
  Darren Sullivan: Here, Jim, I'd love to hear this, but maybe some people say it's easier than
• 21:28
  Darren Sullivan: revitalization. Now, we both know that's not true, but what would you say to that?
• 21:32
  JimBo Stewart: I'd say it's a different kind of haul.
• 21:34
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:35
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah, I mean, I think there are aspects of each that are easier than the other,
• 21:39
  JimBo Stewart: right? I mean, you know, if in a church revitalization, you're probably not
• 21:43
  JimBo Stewart: hauling a trailer and setting up chairs and, you know, doing all that kind of stuff every Sunday.
• 21:48
  JimBo Stewart: But you probably do have a 75-year-old air conditioner that's on an old pump
• 21:51
  JimBo Stewart: system, and you're having to navigate that on the facility side.
• 21:55
  JimBo Stewart: On the people side, you know, planting is easier on the side that you are initially
• 22:03
  JimBo Stewart: at least mobilizing people who are bought in to the vision, whereas revitalization,
• 22:07
  JimBo Stewart: you're having to kind of move them forward.
• 22:10
  JimBo Stewart: But you don't have the history. You don't have the thing. And that's where I
• 22:14
  JimBo Stewart: think it's a give and take.
• 22:16
  JimBo Stewart: I don't know that you could really compare the difficultness of one to the other.
• 22:19
  Bob Bumgarner: Yeah, like in church planting, you might starve to death, but in revitalization,
• 22:23
  Bob Bumgarner: you might get stabbed to death.
• 22:24
  JimBo Stewart: Yes. Yeah.
• 22:26
  Darren Sullivan: That's good.
• 22:26
  JimBo Stewart: I mean, Mike McKinley has a book called Church Planting is for Wimps.
• 22:29
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, right, right.
• 22:30
  JimBo Stewart: That kind of argues that replanting is maybe the hardest. And I might would
• 22:35
  JimBo Stewart: advocate for that out of all the replanting may be the hardest thing to do.
• 22:39
  JimBo Stewart: But I do also think it's very different types of hard.
• 22:42
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, it is. It's definitely not easier, but it's different. Yeah.
• 22:47
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah.
• 22:47
  Bob Bumgarner: Yeah. I do think that some of the misconceptions are, we foster them.
• 22:54
  Bob Bumgarner: I mean, they get fueled by kind of the narrative that we tell ourself.
• 22:59
  Bob Bumgarner: And it's choose your heart.
• 23:03
  Bob Bumgarner: I mean, at the end of the day,
• 23:07
  Bob Bumgarner: ministry is hard work. Ministry takes a schedule. It takes a task list.
• 23:14
  Bob Bumgarner: And here's the thing, when you're planting a church, that task list looks different.
• 23:20
  Bob Bumgarner: And I think one of the misconceptions is that while there's an organic component
• 23:26
  Bob Bumgarner: to, there's a spirit, there's a mystical side to what, like God,
• 23:29
  Bob Bumgarner: Jesus really does build the church.
• 23:32
  Bob Bumgarner: I mean, he's the one who does it, But it's amazing how he does it when there
• 23:38
  Bob Bumgarner: is effort on our part. Chuck Swindoll tells a funny joke. I just aged myself,
• 23:43
  Bob Bumgarner: but Chuck Swindoll tells a funny joke.
• 23:45
  Bob Bumgarner: Somebody came up to a farmer and said, hey, that field looks good.
• 23:51
  Bob Bumgarner: And the farmer said, yeah, we've done a lot of work. And the guy says,
• 23:54
  Bob Bumgarner: well, doesn't God do that?
• 23:56
  Bob Bumgarner: And the farmer says to the guy, you should have seen it when God had it all by himself.
• 24:00
  Bob Bumgarner: Oh, that's great. That's awesome. So, you know, so there is effort that is put in.
• 24:05
  JimBo Stewart: Yeah. And one of the things I have to say is ministry is hard on purpose because
• 24:09
  JimBo Stewart: by God's design, because it shapes us. In 2 Corinthians 1, the Apostle Paul
• 24:14
  JimBo Stewart: says, I don't want you to be unaware.
• 24:16
  JimBo Stewart: The afflictions I experienced in Asia, as a matter of fact, and this is my Jimbo
• 24:20
  JimBo Stewart: paraphrase, I thought we were going to die.
• 24:22
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah.
• 24:23
  JimBo Stewart: But then there's this phrase that struck me years ago. He says,
• 24:25
  JimBo Stewart: but that, that difficulty was so that we would rely on God and not ourselves.
• 24:31
  JimBo Stewart: So ministry can be hard. We've got just a couple minutes left.
• 24:33
  JimBo Stewart: Just what's one or two stories of something you see happening at First Coast
• 24:37
  JimBo Stewart: churches to remind you of why this matters?
• 24:40
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah. So a couple guys that pop off real quick here. Philip Skarnecchia of Mission
• 24:45
  Darren Sullivan: City Church and Joey Presetti of Gather Church. They're both in St. John's County.
• 24:50
  Bob Bumgarner: Benji Cash.
• 24:51
  Darren Sullivan: Benji Cash out of Mayport, Florida. I mean, when I think about these guys,
• 24:55
  Darren Sullivan: not only are they really good communicators, preachers of the gospel,
• 25:00
  Darren Sullivan: but they're also community cultivators.
• 25:03
  Darren Sullivan: They cultivate the community. They don't just sit in their office.
• 25:06
  Bob Bumgarner: And they couldn't be more different.
• 25:07
  Darren Sullivan: And they're all different.
• 25:08
  Bob Bumgarner: Yeah.
• 25:08
  Darren Sullivan: I mean, Benji with the workout fitness stuff.
• 25:12
  Bob Bumgarner: CrossFit stuff, yeah.
• 25:13
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, CrossFit. And just, they're all doing an incredible job.
• 25:16
  Darren Sullivan: And the other thing too, is when you talk to them, they all have a vision and
• 25:21
  Darren Sullivan: a plan to multiply their church. They don't want to see it's just their church
• 25:25
  Darren Sullivan: and how many can they gather. So they're actively developing leaders.
• 25:29
  Bob Bumgarner: They're generous. They're generous. We're just looking for ways to how do we help another church.
• 25:33
  Darren Sullivan: Absolutely. Yep. Yep.
• 25:35
  JimBo Stewart: That's great. So let's talk before we close with some rapid fire questions and next steps.
• 25:39
  JimBo Stewart: Darren, if somebody is listening and they say, I think God may be leading me
• 25:44
  JimBo Stewart: or our church into church planting, what happens next?
• 25:48
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah. So I always say when I talk to somebody, have you had this conversation
• 25:53
  Darren Sullivan: with your pastor? I think you need to be rooted and grounded in a local church
• 25:57
  Darren Sullivan: and you've had this discussion with your pastor. And if he affirms that and everything, great.
• 26:01
  Darren Sullivan: Then start the conversation with us at the association. You can talk to Bob,
• 26:05
  Darren Sullivan: myself, obviously you, Jimbo, they can talk to.
• 26:08
  Darren Sullivan: You can talk to James Peoples, who's the director of Sun Network Florida.
• 26:12
  Darren Sullivan: And start that conversation and see where God is leading you within that.
• 26:17
  Darren Sullivan: Of course, there's some steps that happen. We partner with the Sun Network North
• 26:22
  Darren Sullivan: American Mission Board for an assessment.
• 26:24
  Darren Sullivan: An assessment is so important, a full assessment of their vision,
• 26:27
  Darren Sullivan: of their marriage, of just how they're going to do this, where they're going to go.
• 26:31
  Darren Sullivan: So those are some ways. Of course, we want to connect somebody with a coach.
• 26:36
  Darren Sullivan: I do believe that everybody should have a coach some way. That's some of the
• 26:39
  Darren Sullivan: ways that we can help you through the association.
• 26:42
  Darren Sullivan: What else would you say as far as that, Bob?
• 26:45
  Bob Bumgarner: Just avail yourself to continuously, put yourself in the posture of a learner.
• 26:48
  Darren Sullivan: A learner, yeah.
• 26:49
  Bob Bumgarner: You know, what is it that you...
• 26:52
  Bob Bumgarner: Don't know. What is it that you, like, you know, part of competency development
• 26:58
  Bob Bumgarner: is you don't know what you don't know.
• 27:00
  Bob Bumgarner: So the goal is to get there as quick as you can, because then don't pastor alone
• 27:06
  Bob Bumgarner: can actually help. But if you don't know what you don't know,
• 27:08
  Bob Bumgarner: then it's hard to get resources around that.
• 27:11
  Darren Sullivan: Absolutely.
• 27:12
  JimBo Stewart: All right. I'm going to give some rapid fire questions to you,
• 27:14
  JimBo Stewart: Darren, and Bob, I'm going to ask you to close this out with a final challenge.
• 27:18
  JimBo Stewart: Darren, real quick, best church planting book.
• 27:21
  Darren Sullivan: So I'm going to cheat on this. I'm going to give you two. The first one is the
• 27:24
  Darren Sullivan: book of Acts. There's a church planting manual. I cheated. I gave the Jesus answer.
• 27:27
  JimBo Stewart: But it's true.
• 27:28
  Darren Sullivan: Planting Missional Churches by Ed Stetzer and Daniel M. I think is a great practical book.
• 27:33
  JimBo Stewart: Okay. Biggest misconception about church planting.
• 27:36
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah. If you plant it, they will show up. You've got to get out in the community.
• 27:40
  Darren Sullivan: You've got to invite and invest invite every single day.
• 27:44
  JimBo Stewart: Most overlooked quality you look for in a quality church planter.
• 27:47
  Darren Sullivan: I want to see somebody who has greediness and resiliency because church planting is hard.
• 27:53
  Darren Sullivan: Ministry is hard. And it's like Mike Tyson says, everybody's got to plan until
• 27:58
  Darren Sullivan: they get smacked in the face. Well, it's going to happen in church planting.
• 28:01
  Darren Sullivan: You better be resilient.
• 28:03
  JimBo Stewart: One thing every sending church should know.
• 28:06
  Darren Sullivan: That your prayers and your care and support mean more than you know.
• 28:11
  Darren Sullivan: It's incredible when a church reaches out to a planter. Even,
• 28:14
  Darren Sullivan: I mean, I can just remember Chet's Creek reached out to us when we were in New England.
• 28:18
  Darren Sullivan: And that was just so awesome and encouraged me and my wife.
• 28:22
  JimBo Stewart: What's your favorite church planting story?
• 28:24
  Darren Sullivan: Yeah, so this is from New England, my time up there. Jacob Van Sickle, who was from Iowa.
• 28:30
  Darren Sullivan: He had a heart to come to Providence, Rhode Island. The cool thing about this
• 28:33
  Darren Sullivan: is he didn't just move there to plant a church.
• 28:35
  Darren Sullivan: He mobilized 30 families to move from Iowa to Providence, around to reach lost
• 28:41
  Darren Sullivan: people and to just build into that community. And so it's an incredible story there.
• 28:47
  Darren Sullivan: I know not everybody's fortunate enough to be able to move with 30 people,
• 28:50
  Darren Sullivan: but he was able to do that, and they've been on an incredible journey ever since.
• 28:55
  JimBo Stewart: That's incredible. What's one habit every church planter should develop?
• 28:59
  Darren Sullivan: Don't neglect your soul. Get great at soul care.
• 29:03
  Darren Sullivan: Take your day off. You know, do what you can do in six days.
• 29:07
  Darren Sullivan: Let God do what he needs to do.
• 29:09
  Darren Sullivan: Stay on your knees and just be the best husband and father you can possibly
• 29:13
  Darren Sullivan: be, but don't neglect soul care.
• 29:15
  JimBo Stewart: Bob, carry us out.
• 29:17
  Bob Bumgarner: Okay, here's the kingdom challenge. Ask one question this week. Here's the question.
• 29:22
  Bob Bumgarner: How could our church become more involved in multiplying churches?
• 29:26
  Bob Bumgarner: And think big and small. Maybe you pray. Maybe you pray intentionally for a church plant.
• 29:32
  Bob Bumgarner: Maybe you pray for you that you would disciple somebody.
• 29:39
  Bob Bumgarner: Maybe you give money to something that would be a church sending kind of an opportunity.
• 29:45
  Bob Bumgarner: Maybe there's somebody in your church that you already feel like God has tapped
• 29:49
  Bob Bumgarner: to be somebody you could send.
• 29:51
  Bob Bumgarner: Whatever the next step is, take it. Because healthy churches don't just gather
• 29:55
  Bob Bumgarner: people. They send people.