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ADHD in Women: Why Work Feels Harder (And How to Build a Life That Fits YOU!) · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willis, and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of equipment experience, and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women Job Board and Community.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: In this show, I'm honored to be chatting with remarkable women, redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, their boundaries of balance, the challenges they face, and how they've overcome them to find their own version of success.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Shy away from the real talk.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: We cover it all.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Think of this as coffee with your mate, mixed with an inspiring TikTok, sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cozy, and get ready to get inspired and chase your oldest dreams or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Search their website at investinginwomen.co.uk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Now back to the show.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're talking about something that I think will really resonate with so many women.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: What happens when work feels harder than it seems for everyone else?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: And you just can't figure out why.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: My guest is Emma Kern.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: She's a neurodiversity specialist with more than 20 years experience.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: She's got an MSc in psychology and she is the founder of Serene Neurodiversity.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Emma helps neurodivergent women understand how their brains work and build careers and lives that actually fit them rather than constantly trying to squeeze themselves into systems that don't.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: What makes Emma's story particularly powerful is that despite working in neurodivodiversity for years herself, she only came to understand her own neurodivergence later in life.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: During the pandemic with a newborn baby, the strategist she had relied on for years suddenly stopped working.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: And she had to rethink everything from the ground up.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: In this episode, we're going to be talking about why ADHD and neurodivergence can be missed in women, what masking looks like at work, how um how why some women reach their 30s and 40s before realizing that their brain may work differently, and how to create a working life that plays to your strengths rather than constantly leaving you feeling overwhelmed.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: We'll talk about career change, returning to work, flexible working, workplace adjustments, diagnosis, disclosure, and what employers can do to become genuinely more neuroinclusive.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So if you've ever wondered why certain parts of work seem to take so much more out of you than they should, or you've simply felt that the traditional way of working doesn't quite fit, then this episode is definitely for you.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for joining me today, Emma.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: Pleasure to talk with you.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: That is a long list to get through.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: We will do our best.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: We will do our best.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's so good to meet you.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm excited.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: So you have worked yourself in neurodiversity for more than 20 years, but you didn't realise that you were neurodivergent yourself until later in life.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_02: Can you take us back to that point and tell us exactly what happened?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: When so yeah, so I've so like you said, I've worked in Neurodiversity within employment, working with adults for a very, very long time.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I started out at the National Autistic Society.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for years, well, my whole life, it was kind of, I knew that I struggled with things that other people seemingly weren't struggling with, that my brain was slightly different.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: But for so long, I'd probably built up the scaffolding that I needed to mask and hide a lot of those difficulties.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, for me, what those difficulties would look like would be not being able to reply to a simple email.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'd be sat there for days looking at that email, like reading it in my head, the reply, but not necessarily being able to get going to actually do the task itself.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: As my career expanded and increased, and I became more senior, part of it, part of that was really good because what with ADHD people and many neurodivergent people, what they're really good at is strategy and linking and seeing ideas and bringing them together.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: What becomes much harder to hide is all of the administrative back office pieces that you need to keep things going.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: So as that part of my role also increased, so did the challenges.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: As the challenges increased, that meant we can go into what go into a bit more detail.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: That meant I had action paralysis, wasn't able to get going.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: There was quite a lot of shame, quite a lot of guilt behind that.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Even working in neurodivergence, I didn't necessarily say want to put a label on myself.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's like actually, I don't necessarily see myself in what's out there.
• 5:50
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: How ADHD is talked about, how some of the challenges present, and how the research what the research was saying, I didn't really feel like I fitted it.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Fast forward to COVID hitting in 2020.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I had my first child right at the beginning of COVID.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: And at that point, which I think many people would recognise, everything kind of falls apart.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Not only do you have that new baby to look after, your in everyone's entire world stopped.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: So all of like all of the scaffolding that was there completely fell away.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: On top of that, which is a lot of research to suggest how much hormones interact with ADHD.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: As everyone knows, it's had a baby, your hormones are absolutely wild after having that, having that child.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it was at that point that I really stepped back and was like, yeah, yeah, I've got ADHD 100%.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Weirdly, the one part of ADHD that made me go, yes, this is absolutely me, was learning about rejection sensitivity dysphoria.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the piece that I recognised so much in myself that gave me the answers to everything else.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And from there, I've then been able to rebuild my strategies for myself that actually work with my brain.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that doesn't mean to say every day is really easy.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like yesterday I was sat probably staring at my screen for you know four hours, not being able to get going, but it means I can be much kinder to myself when those things happen.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: So what is that rejection?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So rejection sensitivity dysphoria.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's often so people will hear it described as RSD or rejection sensitivity dysphoria.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now I should say, which like a lot of people will come back to, is it's not part of the classification of getting a diagnosis.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's more an experience within the diagnosis.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So rejection sensitivity dysphoria generally relates to an I suppose that's the best way to describe it, like an intense internal reaction to perceived rejection or perceived negative feedback or perceived criticism.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when that hits, yeah, you can't, your body goes into fight or flight mode really, really quickly.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then how you react to that can go from kind of zero to 100 in a matter of seconds.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that feeling can last for hours, days, weeks at a time.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like an example would be so for me, a real like a real life example for me in that moment after I'd had a baby, and even before then, would be saying to my husband, my husband, we had this blackboard in our kitchen that would be put, my husband loved.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, if we need anything, we'll put it on the blackboard.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: Remember to look at that blackboard.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you go to the shop, I'll remember, you know, milk or bread or those little bits that you'd need.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Without fail, every time I'd go to the shop, I'd forget to look at the blackboard and never get the bits that had gone into the shop for.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: What would happen when I got back is my husband might say to me, Did you not look at that blackboard?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Now, for me, that seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to say.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: We've got this blackboard there, it's in the kitchen, it's in the way out of your house.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Just look at it.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Perfectly reasonable thing for him to kind of say to me.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: What how I would feel and how I would react to that would be like my world had ended.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like you would feel intense rejection, intense shame.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: You'd probably, you know, we would have so many arguments that would stem from that bit, but I didn't necessarily have the words to be able to describe what I was feeling.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't have the words described to him how I was feeling, which then meant he didn't have the understanding and awareness of kind of what to do and what to say after that.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Another example that your listeners might kind of also relate to, especially is in work, is when you get your team's message from a manager pop-up and say, Are you ready for like are you around for a quick catch-up?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: But no one hates that.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't think no, no one loves that.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody hates that.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone gets service, don't they?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's horrible.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And like what can then happen is like you'll get stuck in this loop in your head that you can't get out of.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's really like RSD is so hard to describe to anybody that hasn't felt that.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's a bit like I suppose the bit initial reaction, like, do you have a phobia of anything?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Me.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: No, not really.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm trying to think.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like being buried alive would be like, but that's obviously an extreme question.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I'm trying to think of, you know, like the bush took a trial, so they put them on in I was the left.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: So for an example might be so anyone here as listening that's um scared of spiders or scared of snakes, a spider you probably see more regularly in the UK.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you have that phobia, you see a fat, and then you see a sp spider, that feeling internally of inner panic, your anxiety going through the reef, you're frozen.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what rejection sensitivity dysphoria can feel like.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it can feel like that to such what would seemingly be such a small thing to others.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Even if somebody on text messages, a lot of people to I it doesn't bother me because I always do the thumbs up, but lots of people would say they might feel it if they have a thumbs up as a response to a message.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, right, okay.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: To them, that might be like an I won't swear on your podcast, but like I mean to them, you know, like completely awful, and then the spiral starts.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you deal with that then?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because obviously not everyone, you know, and I give thumbs up all the time, and I give it not because I'm being rude, but because I'm busy, and it's more like and I think, well, I've acknowledged at least I've acknowledged what you've said, you know, it's an agreement.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I give thumbs up all the time as well, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't, and you know, it's different for everybody what might trigger it.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think dealing with RSD, it's something that will never ever go away.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's that you will like it's something that most people will always struggle with.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: For me, and what we I kind of work through with the women I support is starting to sit back and think about what your triggers are.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's horribly stage one because once you know your triggers, you can then start to put into words and put strategies in place to deal with it when it happens.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Also, when you know your triggers, you can start to explain that to the people around you, the people that love you, the people that you love, you know, your managers, your colleagues, about what that trigger is, why that trigger will have that reaction, and then things to do.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because what's really hard is when you're in that RSD response, you can't explain it to somebody.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So once if you're able to set back and start to think about it outside of you having that experience and reaction, yeah, yeah.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing is I think having things to do when it hits.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it's about stepping away, trying not to react in the moment.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: That might be stepping away from my desk, going to make a cup of tea, going for a quick walk, just clearing your head so you're kind of moving and not in it, yeah.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Stuck in it, I think then, you know, coming out of it.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's then about just being much kinder to yourself.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if once you know it why it's happening, yeah, you can then not be so hard on yourself and feel ashamed when it does happen.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: For some people, I do it sometimes, is I get trying to get stuff out of my head and onto paper.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: So write down like what's happened, yeah, and what could be an outcome that you haven't necessarily considered.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: So rather than getting stuck in the spot of spiralling into that intense reaction, if you write it down, it makes it much more physical.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So your feelings become something in front of you that you can then start to logically work through.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's difficult and it's never going to be something that is always fixed.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm very much someone like knowledge is power.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the more you can learn about it and learn about yourself within RSD, over time the kinder you can be to yourself when those things happen.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Does everybody with ADHD have RSD?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to say.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't want to say yes.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: I would say anecdotally, everyone I've spoken to was with it.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um to say yes would be going against maybe some of the diagnostic criteria, although we know diagnostic criteria isn't necessarily, you know, doesn't necessarily represent everybody.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: To say yes, you would definitely have RSD with ADHD would I wouldn't be able to say that.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Anecdotally, I think most people would really struggle with it, yeah.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: What other symptoms um prevalent maybe more, you know, prevalent both genders, but there may be more in women than ADHD.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think well let I think let's go through all of them and then maybe say kind of why they might show up a little bit more for women.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, perfect.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think one thing that people talk about a lot is masking.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know whether you've heard of masking before.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So for anyone that kind of hasn't, you know, masking is not showing up as your true self, which I think many women do.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think every and you know, people that aren't neurodivergent, don't have ADHD that listen to this will say, Well, yeah, everyone does it to an extent.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: For women, and for me specifically, and I think this is why diagnosis happens so late for women.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: We will have spent every second of our lives masking through school, through trying to get in.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: You'll be in school and you'll be thinking, right, okay, that group of friends that I'm with, what does that group of friends like?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: How does that group of friends communicate?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: You'll be like uber aware of micro changes in behaviours, micro changes in communication.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you'll mirror that with that group of friends.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: What will then happen is you'll have a different group of friends where you'll mirror everything that they're doing and that they're liking, the same as you're going to university, as you're going into work.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: What then that kind of means for many neurodivergent women that have a late diagnosis is they get to the point they don't really know who they maybe are, because you've sent all of your life going.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'd never really felt like I fitted in to anywhere.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like I feel like you always feel like you're bending yourself for groups, but never feel like you're being seen.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just feel like on the outside of the group.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, always.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that would that be.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: I've definitely felt like that, particularly at school.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like you were stood with a group, but you never quite in the group, if that makes sense.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was that was definitely me.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And people would go, would maybe think if you was like popular, not in like a oh, she's the popular girl in that group, but you know, like, oh well, everybody likes this person.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: She's got, you know, she's able to go between multiple groups, but no one necessarily sees like inside you, just feeling like I don't know where I fit, or that you know, who I am and like why am I not seen as myself, and that's nobody else's fault.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, it's finding those kindred spirits in that.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I I just never quite found felt I found them at school.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Funny, I felt I found them at work, but not at school.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've I would say I've felt a much more like that.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you go into work, especially if you especially if you're lucky to work up doing something that you really love and you're really passionate about, and you're working alongside people that you love and are passionate about that, because then your group becomes something with a shared passion and a shared purpose.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you can talk about that with your colleagues, whether they're in the same business as you, or if you're self-employed with other people that you meet at self-employed doing a similar thing.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you can sometimes find your place a little later.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've forgotten where I'm going, where what it's funny, I don't know, but I feel like it's funny.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm much closer to people I've met through work, even than the school mums.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why that is either.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it's that shared, like you think it's that we're all working together at work for a shared common goal.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned the school mum thing, and I think again, for many neurodivergent women, the going to like I'm lucky I've got a few school mums that I get on with, and we talk, which is really, really nice.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: But it definitely, I don't know whether you may have felt this or whether many other women do, especially neurodivergent or late diagnoser, or anyone that didn't have a great experience at school, going back into school and taking your child to school and like being at those school gates brings back all of that again, doesn't it?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, back into those situations where you're having to mask and having to try and fit in and slot in and navigating.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just about your kid going to school, you're then navigating these other friendships.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And those mum friendships then impact your child, yeah, as well.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because you see the children that get invited to all the play dates and all the birthday parties, it's because all the mums get on.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then often the child where you know, if that mum is struggling and you know feels like they're on the outside, very often that child then doesn't have as many play dates and doesn't get invited to as many birthday parties.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's heartbreaking if you also you're still in that space of masking and figuring out who you are, and you know, figuring out how to show up authentically as yourself.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really hard at that point when you're also needing wanting to do that for your child as somebody else's life there that is being built that relies on you feeling comfortable in who you are.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think with masking as well, it's not it's not as easy as just saying, Oh, well, just unmask.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And also you might not unmask in every part of your life.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't you don't have to.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you don't ha just because People say, oh, you, you know, unmask.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, actually, I don't want to unmask in this space.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Masking for me keeps me, you know, feeling psychologically safe, feeling like I've got it all together.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe in this part of my life I can start unmasking.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: So unmasking around my husband or unmasking around my inner circle can be that first step to starting to build that place where you show up as yourself in a kind of happy so what other symptoms?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because you, you know, you often think of people with ADHD as I don't know, they're always on the go, they're really energetic, and there's a lot of high energy there, and sometimes a bit phonetic.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't know if that's just an assumption.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's not well, I don't think it's an assumption.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's very much so you have kind of two well, there's three main types of of ADHD that you'd be diagnosed with.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you'd be diagnosed hyperactive, inattentive, or combined.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Hyperactive is very much what you described.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, somebody that has high energy, always moving, can't sit down.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: And very much why for many, many years, everyone thought of ADHD as that, I hate saying the phrase, but like as that like the naughty boy.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: The boy in class that couldn't sit still, was always on the move, couldn't develop, you know, good relationships with their peers.
• 24:18
  unknown: Yeah.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this was why a lot of girls were missed.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: The inattentive side is still hyperactive, but it's internal hyperactivity.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, when I was growing up, I probably would if I went and had a formal diagnosis, probably be combined with more inattentive.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would say I was probably more hyperactive to begin with, but then got shouted at a lot.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So then obviously was more inattentive.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: But inattentive is that hyperactivity of your internal thoughts and internal words.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I will always have like maybe five internal narratives going at once.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's you know, everything you're thinking about, I'll be doing work, but also be thinking about, well, I've got this bill to pay, I've got to go there.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: But that's like which sounds really weird, like voices in my head, but it's the it's continuous voices going, we need to do this, we need to do that, but and that's all of the time not being able to switch off.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like I found it bizarre.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: So my husband doesn't have one, doesn't hear voices and accents when he's reading a book, it's just silent, which I'm like, you like I thought everyone had that and like went into the world, and you know, I'd be able to visualize it, you know.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: It was it would be like when you read you know, like when you're reading this fiction, you mean you have the work you've got.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you'd be like, Yeah, well, I do that.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, you know, when you read Harry Potter, you and Hogwell.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously we've seen the film, but but you you are there, yeah.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's bizarre, it's bizarre.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or um what what was the other example I was gonna give then?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Talking about books, and yeah, so what it can often look like, especially, and you know, many late diagnosed women will relate to this.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: In school, you were often classed as the daydreamer.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you'd look quite maybe vacant sometimes, like you're not listening, but it's because you've got so much going on in your head.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: For others, so the other thing for me would be like if I'm listening to somebody, I'll often be doodling.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm paying attention, I wouldn't necessarily like I'm not necessarily if I'm looking at you, I'm paying attention to you now, Elizabeth, but if I'm looking at somebody, the likelihood is I'm not necessarily able to process everything that they're saying because my mind's going off.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: But if I'm if I'm looking away and doodling, and my mind's then freer to really process it, take it in, and then work out what I need to do next.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then combined, it's kind of you've probably got a bit of both, bit of both, yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: So and then from that, so kind of the other main challenges outside of kind of masking in RSD is your executive functioning.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: What's that skills?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: So executive functioning is all of the parts of a task that you might need to do.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you a kind of an example for me from two days ago.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I need to sort out my his new business card with my business book.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: I set my business up four years ago, went and got a job, so it's dormant for a bit, and I need to reset it up.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's taken me ages, and this is part of executive functioning.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: The what you need to do to then execute tasks.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's taken me ages to get to the point where it's like, right, I need to go on my app, sort it out.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Went into my app, realized my address was still my old address, all I need to do is do a bank card.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, my executive functioning started to tank because then it's like, now what I need to do is five to ten additional tasks just to get that bank card done.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's really frustrating because then you kind of then sat in action paralysis.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you've not done it.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you've not done it.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: How do you do that then?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because obviously you want to do this card.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: What are you gonna do?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if someone's listening to this and this resonates, how do you do it?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, what were your advice to them?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it seemed like it's awful when it happens.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: The best thing for executive functioning, I don't know why how why it works or how it works, but it's like magic is body doubling.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: So body doubling, it's when you sit alongside someone like so.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean to be in a physical space, it could be online, it could go on to a Teams meeting when, but there's somebody else there doing tasks alongside you co-working type helps unlock you being able to do the task yourself.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because so how it tends to work.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I run some body doubling sessions, we all get online, we've put in the chat the things that we need to get done, you know, all of that rubbishy life admin that takes a lot of executive functioning.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: So on a Monday for an hour, we get online, write down what we need to do, then turn our cameras off.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: We generally have an hour.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Halfway through, we get back online, turn the cameras back on, right?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Where are we all up to?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: What's everyone doing next?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Turn them off for half an hour again.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And most of the time you've kind of bashed it out because once you get going, you can do stuff really, really fast.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: You just need, I don't know how it works.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: You just often need that other person.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have that other person, what I find works really well is I'll have like a comfort show on in the background on my iPad.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: All right, yeah, yeah.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that unlocks it to get going.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: So if you work with a lot of people here that work remotely, and if they struggled and they maybe don't have access to a co-working space or a countability partner or whatever, then just want the radio or a TV programme.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: TV show or join my body doubling sessions.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: How about you?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like anyone that works remotely, any business owners, anyone that's self-employed, those body, you know, we do an hour on a Monday, an hour on a Thursday.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can hop in when you want to, hop out when you want to, but it's just a good space to feel like you're in it with other people, and then you also get that dopamine boost.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the other parts of ADHD, so ADHD is a kind of a chemical imbalance, and what we really struggle with is making dopamine, making sure that dopamine can then move through from dopamine to action and keep hold of that dopamine.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my old colleagues described it in a really, really good way.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: So dopamine is a bit like it's the thing you need to be able to get going, to get motivation and to take action.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't have that dopamine, you're never going to be a you cannot get dopamine and get going.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: So my friend, my colleague described it as the same as like a being hungry.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you're hungry, you're able to eat a sandwich.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have already eaten a massive sandwich and someone says, right, eat another one, if you're not hungry, you're never going to be able to.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like do you remember that Ficker of Dibbly episode with the spreadsheet?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: I do like that, yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if if you haven't got, if your dopamine hasn't risen, or you don't have that dopamine to get going, your executive function is going to be on the lower end of the scale, if not completely missing.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's about so body doubling sessions, I think, is that part that gets you that dopamine because you're in it with others.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of it, you get the dopamine boost of getting all of your awful tasks done.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And also that dopamine boost then gets you going for the rest of the day.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you do that at the beginning, and then you kind of you've cranked your dopamine up, and then you're able to kind of progress.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: How else would you get your dopamine up then?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's different ways to do it.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got your healthy ways and your unhealthy ways.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: So many people that have ADHD, both men and women, especially late-diagnosed, probably have used unhealthy ways for dopamine boosts in the past.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: So think about kind of like alcohol, smoking, recreational drugs, that you'll find a big proportion of late-diagnosed ADHDs that have struggled with that in the past because that's a really unhealthy way to get dopamine.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: But once you get dopamine, you're kind of seeking it again in those unhealthy spaces.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: I like to think of like kind of healthy dopamine as thinking of like having a dopamine menu that works for you and dopamine layering in the morning.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: So, and this will change where you are in your life and how you're able to get it.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's about getting up in the morning, getting outside, I go to the gym.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm lucky enough that I've only got one child.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: I can get, you know, he's six now, my husband's at home first thing in the morning before he goes to work, so I can get to the gym, blast my music, get 30 minutes there done.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's enough to get my dopamine going.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: I walk home from the school run as well.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: That really helps with my dopamine.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's well, say sometimes, more often than not, in the middle of the day, it's throwing on what early hip hop, your 90s, whatever music or blast.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: So whatever.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, what can you layer in throughout the day that you can go to to get those dopamine boosts?
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit of joy.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because it is a little bit of joy.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a crossover with autism?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: It well, it's a really interesting question.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: You neurodivergence, there's kind of so we think of uh I don't necessarily think to like to think from a diagnosis point or a label point, it's a neurodivergence.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's crossovers with all neurodivergence because it's just how your brain is wired.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you might find there's crossovers with dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean to say if someone's got ADHD, they'll have autism.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: What we're seeing quite a lot of at the moment is people, I don't know whether you've heard of or DHD.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have, yeah.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: What's that?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Being 10.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's somebody that has a dual diagnosis of autism and ADHD.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: What we're seeing happening for some people is they get their ADHD diagnosis, they start taking medication, and after that, autism gets diagnosed because sometimes your ADHD brain has been masking the autism.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't think I have a dual diagnosis at all.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'm kind of just one track, ADHD, that's me.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so many women as well that have been diagnosed with autism that are now getting a diagnosis of ADHD as well.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: How those two interact, like, I can't speak to personally, but I think it would be so difficult because you have a one side of your brain, your autism will be striving and needing routine, predictability, structure, logic, all of that bit where your ADHD brain is going, I hate routine, I need spontaneity, I need to know what's happening next.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the two worlds will be so, I would think would be so difficult to navigate.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: Does everybody need medication that gets a diagnosis?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Such a hard question.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Elizabeth, I wouldn't have, I was like, don't ask me that question.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's fine.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, it's fine.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's a tough one.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think medic I think medication can be really helpful for people.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't sought a formal diagnosis.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I need medication.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think have I've got I'm privileged to have worked within neurodiversity for so long.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: I can now I can recognise what's happening, when it's happening, what strategies I need to put in place.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a really real personal choice.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know some people that started taking medication and then stopped because then they feel like, well, I missed a part of me that I was before medication.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: For some people, medication is the key.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they what does medication do then?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Does it just dull everything down?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't think so.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm not a doctor or a medical professional, and I don't take medication myself, so I can't necessarily speak to that fully from a point of you know, personal lived experienced or as a medical professional.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what it can help with some people is getting going, so it will silence that hyperactivity.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: For some people, it's about being able to be present in the moment with their children.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, you're playing with your children, but before medication, your thoughts are like all over the place, everything all at once, and you're not able to focus and be present.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: For others, it's about being able to then their executive functioning improves, and they're able to just get so it might be medication might help me being able to get my bank card done, you know, but like quicker than it's taking now.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of minimizing it more than I would like, but it helps people show up.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: People take medication breaks, you don't always have to be on medication every day.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: So some people might take med their medication, you know, Monday to Thursday, take a break at the weekend.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so it's like other people will for some people, yeah.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's hard when you and I think for people that are starting on medication, it's about finding the right dosage that works for you.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you'll go through a process called titration, and that's about starting on medication, maybe upping your dose and finding out that sweet spot.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Also, there's lots of different types of medication.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: It so it it's fine, it again, it's working with yourself and finding out what is it that helps me in my day.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: Is there certain careers that suit people with ADHD more than others?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um anything I don't think of certain careers, I think it's if an ADHD is in a career that is interesting to them, yeah, and they love, that's what it's all about because that sparks for dopamine, and we're very much interest-based individuals.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Give me something I'm excited about.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: My executive function is like on fire.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'll like I will research it for ages, I will be all in that all of the time.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: Give me something where I think it's pretty boring, I'll really struggle to get going.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: Just thinking there'll be certain jobs you know you're worried about your bank card and thinking like an EA maybe that has to do that all the time for other people that probably wouldn't suit, well, it wouldn't suit you, not like nobody comes to me for any EA support.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: If I if at any point I think I'm going to go embark on a new career, you can come back to me, Elizabeth, and say, not EA, don't do that.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not yet.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: I am not the person for you.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: But it's about it's it's about finding those things that you know for many people it can be working in something that is can be fast-paced or decision-based focused.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's but it's again, it's if it's something that you love doing, you'll thrive in it.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: If it's something many ADHD people work really well in people-focused roles.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I know for me, if I'm talking to somebody or I'm out and about, I will be able to get so much more done when I'm not in those meetings.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if I'm just sat, if I've been sat at home for three days with no human interaction, yeah, I'll really, really struggle.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I get that.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: I get that.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think every I think, you know, when you are self-employed and home-based, it's difficult.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's difficult.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're climbing climbing the walls at some point, aren't you?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, change of C.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or just if you're like me, just going to the fridge for cheese for an hour.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably my unhealthy dopamine boost.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of cheese.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, what about employers then?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, obviously that lots of workplaces are very diverse, but um, you know, and there'll be but there will be lots of people with ADHD within workplaces.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: How can they get the best out of those people?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Multiple ways.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think starting to not focusing on, I think this is the same for anyone, regardless of whether they've got a diagnosis or you know, they're neurodivergent, if somebody is a mum returning to work or a carer.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think first thing first is not thinking about the label, work understanding who that person is and what that person needs, what that person is really skilled at, what gaps that person might have that maybe isn't their sweet spot, and working out kind of how to deal with that and what strategies you can put in place, flexible working.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: If I if I could wave a magic wand and ask employers, which I don't think is ever going to happen, unfortunately, ask employers to kind of rather than thinking of presenteism and going into work, you sit at your desk nine to five every day, think of it more like output-based.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: So someone with ADHD could get their entire week's work done in a day, in two days, but that's not sustainable.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, how you're able to then be more output-based in your performance rather than hours sat at your desk would be incredible.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think understanding a little bit more about RSD and really upskilling themselves on that and the impact, and not, you know, you can't, no one gets it right all of the time.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can't, you're an employer isn't responsible for somebody's reactions, however, an employer can help can start to understand how their language might incite that reaction, yeah and what they can do.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that a simple thing might be when you're emailing your member of staff and you should do this.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this is about inclusive design.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't need to do this for just one employee, if you start doing this as standard for everybody.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: It helps everybody.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, like you said before, like you everyone hates when you get that message on teens, are you free for quick chat?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: How easy would it be to just follow that up with you free for quick chat, nothing to worry about, just want to catch up about X?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: That would reduce so much anxiety for something.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like allowing sensory support.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: So for many people, we'll have sensory overwhelm, you know, lots of noises, being in bright lights, or look like bright artificial light all day looking at your screen, you know, allowing people to wear headphones, wear noise-cancelling headphones in the office, allowing someone to take regular breaks, allowing someone to have that flexibility to go to the work office two days a week and work from home, the other three.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, it's about understanding how to get the best out of every team member, and good managers are good managers with everybody.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes I've gone into a workplace and the managers had no training on neurodivergence, but they've had really good manager training, they're empathetic, they're understanding, and they're great.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think upskilling, training, thinking about the sensory environment and being really aware of how words can impact somebody, and how really small changes to that can transform someone's day and entire week.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because once you've spiraled in that RSD, everything you were going to get done probably doesn't get done.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it really just taking that additional two seconds to think about how you're saying somebody will increase overall productivity because you're not then losing that person into that RSD spiral and their executive functioning leaves.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you support people then?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um and how can people work with you?
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for asking, Liza.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's a multiple ways.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think so.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: I support women predominantly in the workplace, or looking at career reset.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: We do an eight-week career reset programme, and this is for women that and the reason this was designed was because many women were coming to me because they've unfortunately been made redundant, they've so many redundancies happening at the moment, or just feeling really stuck.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how'd so many women, you know, we climb that corporate ladder and then we turn around like, how did I get here?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I've lost all my joy, nothing is aligned to my values anymore, but I'm not sure what the next steps are.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what the eight-week career reset program is all about.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: We take we go through looking at clarity, looking at values, creating that needs analysis.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: So so many people have spent years going, I struggle at this, yeah.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than sitting back and go, okay, well, what do I actually need to thrive?
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: And once you've got that as well in front of you, alongside clarity, alongside what your values are, you can then start to make that plan to move forward.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: Whether that's a plan to find a job because you're redundant, or it's a plan to move out of the role that you're currently in.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: The other piece of work that I do is for women currently in work that are struggling, want some better strategies to help them get back to that good place that they used to be at.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: That can be ongoing, that can be for eight weeks.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Access to work is a fund that people can use to fund that.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a government-funded scheme.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: Having said that, there's a really long waiting list.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: So people are waiting nine to 12 months for it.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can get your employer to pay in the interim, that would be amazing.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Employers can also access the career reset as part of their outplacement support.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if they know they're going through redundancy and they want to, you know, newer inclusion shouldn't finish the moment redundancy starts.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: So even businesses that have great neuroinclusion practices, often the minute redundancy hits, all of that goes out the window.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, it's no one likes to make anyone redundant.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not easy for anybody.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: But as an employer, if you can leave your neurodivergent employees with something, you know, if you can treat them as well on their way out as you do on their way in around neuroinclusion, that can be transformational.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can people contact you?
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: People can contact me.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: So they can follow me on Instagram.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, nice.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: I am on LinkedIn as well, so Emma Kearns Msc, or you can follow my business page, Saren Neurodiversity.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or you can email me at Emma at Neurodiversity.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: What's the slash in the middle?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: What do you call the dash?
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know I don't know, but we I know what you mean.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Emma at sarin side dash neurodiversity.co.uk.
• 51:16
  unknown: Lovely.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we'll put all those in the show notes.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Emma, for joining us today.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: And sorry if I waffled on and talked to us.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm talking loads.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's been amazing.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening to another episode of the Work It Like a Mum podcast.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: And don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willet and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_02: You can also follow my recruitment site, Investing in Women, on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.