Latest / From 9 to Mom / sleep training with Slumber & Bloom
Transcript
- Catie Fitzgerald: Welcome back to From 9 to Mom. Danielle: where we discuss balancing the nine to five hustle with the beautiful chaos that we call motherhood. Catie Fitzgerald: And we need to welcome Missy with some summer and bloom back to the podcast. Thanks for coming back. Even after our potty training episode, we're ready to talk about part two. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Thank Yes, thanks for having me back. It's time to dive in again. Catie Fitzgerald: We're so excited because I think our potty training episode did really well. And today we're going to kind of focus on the other half of what you do, which is sleep training, sleep consulting, which is a very precious, precious thing to moms. This episode of From Nine to Mom is brought to you by Local Social Club. Local Social Club is a kids' snapback hat brand started by two New England moms who couldn't find hats for their toddler boys that felt like their style. Everything felt too childish or gimmicky. Out of that frustration, they started designing snapback hats inspired by their husbands' favorite hats, just scaled down for kids. From there, Local Social Club was born Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah. Yep. Danielle: Yes, we all need more sleep and those of us with little kids doesn't happen, right? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: It is. Yeah. I it happens after you sleep, you know. Danielle: So tell yes. Catie Fitzgerald: After this conversation, you will feel confident to sleep train your kids. But I think we put a laundry of things together that we wanted to talk about, Missy. So we're going to kind of just throw the questions at you and let's jump right in. So I think we need to start with what is sleep training? And I think there's so many different definitions online. We even just said before we started the call, there's so many pages and Danielle: It's gonna happen. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: you Yeah. Catie Fitzgerald: a classic New England feel and thoughtful details like soft interior linings, adjustable snaps, ⁓ signature roping, these snapbacks are made for kids' everyday lives. things that do that, but can you break down what sleep training actually is? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah, I mean in the most simple terms, it's behavioral conditioning of how a child sleeps. That's like the most basic that I can put it. It is just whatever. misconception is where ⁓ think like, ⁓ I'm not sleep training my kid. You are. ⁓ no matter what you're doing, if you're co-sleeping rocking your kid to sleep and sleeping with them all night long, you're conditioning them to sleep that way. If you're... Catie Fitzgerald: Easy. Easy. Use the FNTM to get 20 % off your first order. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Doing other strategies to have your kid fall asleep in the crib by themselves whether it's letting them fall asleep with you by their side Supporting them to fall asleep with as little crying as possible or if you're ripping the band-aid and doing a full extinction method You're training your child. So however your child learns like they're learning to sleep in a certain way Danielle: such a different way to look at it because that done because the conditioning piece is we are all behaviorally conditioning our kids across the board right but with sleep training there's so many people who are like yeah I gave up on sleep training or I'm not doing it but that action of giving up you're creating another set of behaviors whatever that may be and I think people oftentimes don't think of it Catie Fitzgerald: We both were like, end the episode. Danielle: that way. If they're not using a specific program, they're like, I'm not sleep training, but you're doing something. So that was my fault for real. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah, yeah, it's training no matter what. Catie Fitzgerald: No, it's such a thing that I'm going to clip that part for sure because I feel like people have so many opinions. Like I did a couple like searches just trying to find like, try to get something a little different to talk about on this episode and not, you know, every sleep training thing that everyone's heard on TikTok or whatever. And I think there's a lot of like two of sleep training. There's parents that are like, absolutely not. would never do that. but it's like, no, like even if you're not, you're doing some sort of training. So I think it's fair to talk about why people think the, you know, sleep training, basically, I think when everyone says that, they think you're just letting your kid cry the entire night and they're like, how could you do that? But what's like the science behind sleep training and that conditioning part that you talk about a little bit more. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah, I mean, it's basically just. The way that you're behaviorally teaching your kid to fall asleep on repeat So I actually I just talked to a mom yesterday with a 13 month old and she was like i've been rocking her to sleep every single night because I thought that's what I was supposed to do But she's waking up every hour ish to be rocked back to sleep every single time she falls asleep so the way the brain works is that however, we fall asleep at bedtime is how we're going to Transition each sleep cycle all night long. So if that's being rocked to sleep and them being put in the crib and then they wake up and they're in the crib and they're like wait a second this isn't how I fell asleep in the first place they're gonna freak out and be like why am I here this isn't where I fell asleep it would be like if you fell asleep on you know your mattress in your bed and you woke up on a raft in the ocean Why am I here? How did I get here? So it's confusing when your child is actually getting mixed signals of you're gonna fall asleep here and then I'm gonna expect you to sleep through the night where, yeah, some babies do and that's fantastic. And I tell every parent it's sustainable until it's not. I'm not here to judge anybody and say, you're nursing your kid to sleep and then they sleep all night. Fantastic, what do I care? But it's when, like if you have to nurse your kid to sleep 25 times a night and it's unsustainable, is when we make changes and break that association. So you'll probably hear like sleep association and sleep props and this and that and that basically just means whatever your kid needs to fall asleep every single time they fall asleep is their sleep association. Danielle: I got a text from my best friend this morning. As you say that, literally she just had a baby in February she goes, can I die from exhaustion and excessive breastfeeding? And I text her back, you can go to the doctor and honestly I said, yes, I think you can actually. If you're too dehydrated and too tired, right? You technically could, right? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Probably yes. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. You'll hear every single doctor like especially on TikTok and maybe this is just my algorithm, but every single one where you know where like the person goes up to their boss and they're like, read this data on a scale of one to 10 and every time they say sleep, the doctor is like 10 out of 10. You cannot function. Your brain waves and everything changes how you function when you are chronically exhausted. Danielle: We just had someone come out and talk about gut health and sleep. He's like, sleep and stress, like, varying. Catie Fitzgerald: No. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah, Sleep is healing. If you're not sleeping, your body is not healing. And it's the same like for me, like I'm equally as passionate about getting the parents better sleep as getting the child better sleep because you can't be your best mom if you're exhausted and short fused all the time. And your kid is going to be extra clingy, extra fussy. And it's just a cycle. just it needs to be broken. Catie Fitzgerald: go right into it. Yeah. Well, let's talk about like your philosophy when you have a mom that's coming to you. Like how do you start kind of that sleep training, coaching and consulting? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah, I mean, I have a full intake assessment where I ask all the questions about not only the child, but also the parents. So I'm asking, you know, how old is your child? What milestones have they met? What's their temperament like? What's your parenting style? What's your philosophy on sleep training? How much crying are you comfortable with? Do you want to be in the room while your kid's falling asleep or do you not? Like there's a laundry list of questions that I make to customize a step-by-step plan for them. And for me, I've Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: I've been doing this for nine years now and I've found it. so much more effective to meet the parents where they are and customize a plan that maybe I'm blending more than one sleep training method where I'm saying, okay, well, if you're nursing and rocking your baby to sleep all night, every night, your kid's not just going to go in the crib and fall asleep without a dramatic amount of crying. Most parents who come to me don't want a ton of crying. of their, most of the people will come to me and say, the pediatrician said just have him cried out and I'm not comfortable doing that. let's do something else. And so that's what we do. Catie Fitzgerald: think that's really important though because as we just mentioned before we started all talking, there's the methods versus you're customizing an entire program. And I think one of the very first things when I maybe two months postpartum, I was like, I'm not sleeping. We formula feeding and switching formulas and dealing with all of that on top of no sleep. and I just was like searching Instagram and I got served an ad for ⁓ moms on call and I instantly bought it because I was like, let's figure it, let's learn, let's figure it out. And I think that's a good, good point you made of like how much you're taking in because those other programs, it's like, here's the schedule, but they don't give you additional tools to meet that schedule. But what's your kind of opinion on some of those like moms on call taking care of babies. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah. I mean, I don't want to bash like other programs and stuff because it will work for some people. But the people who up hiring a sleep consultant to work one on one are the ones who need lot of support along the way. They need so like my program is two weeks and you unlimited text support. have phone calls throughout the process. We have a sleep log that I am checking several times a day and I'm communicating through the sleep Catie Fitzgerald: Absolutely. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: blood as well. So we are pinpointing the child's actual sleep needs. ⁓ not just, your kid is this age, here's their schedule, because they may not be able to take a two hour nap every single day and go to bed at 7pm. And like that just might not be life for that child. So ⁓ a customized plan for that is where ⁓ like the benefit lies in hiring a sleep consultant versus just buying a course. lot of times I'll compare a course to one size fits all and one-on-one is I'm getting out of the box and fixing the problem based on ⁓ where at right now and not just saying this is what we're gonna do. No, I'm gonna like deep dive into everything and fix the problem not only for the short term, but for the long term. Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah, and I think we had on here like, okay, how long does sleep training really last? Or like, how long does it take? And how long does it transition? Like one of the questions we had was can sleep training work even if you've already been rocking and feeding your baby to sleep for months? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah, for sure. mean, I've had clients up to six years old who have these sleep associations forever and the longer they have these sleep associations and the more gentle the parent wants to sleep train, the longer it's going to take. And that's a conversation I have with every parent is I'm perfectly fine with breaking it down into small chunks for you. And I'm going to lay out what nights one through three nights, four through six, like every single time we're making a change to get to the end goal. But they have to understand you have to be 100 % committed to the plan, making the change and sticking to it and staying open with communication. I tell every single parent, like if is like in your sleep plan that you're like, I don't know if this is 100 % sustainable, then we'll change it. We'll go back to the drawing board and like, again, you're like, you're not going to get that. of course, but being able to like be flexible with like how we're doing that stuff is going to help but they need to like be consistent. Danielle: So you say committed, consistent, and there's a question in here about what's the biggest mistake, but in my head, I'm already going to, I mom's on call, it didn't work, so then I went to taking care of babies, it didn't work, then I did the plan that my friend's sister-in-law said worked for her kid, like would that be the biggest mistake is just switching, thinking you're gonna find ⁓ one? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yes and no. I mean, most of the time, you, yeah, mean, like if you stick to something, like it'll eventually work if child accepts it, but it really... ⁓ It really depends because if you're like leaving the room and like I don't know what these courses are teaching but like if you're leaving the room for 15 minutes and that's enough time for your kid to escalate to the point of vomiting they're not learning anything. So that's not that's not the method for your kid. That's and it's very common like parents will tell me like I can't leave the room for that long and I don't make them do that anyways. So it's just like for me it's more responsive to the child and not a chart that says how long we're leaving the room. Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah. Danielle: Okay. Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah. And I think it's important to talk about like you started saying they're crying to the point they're throwing up and that, I think that's a big people are having about like a cry it out method. Like they think that's what sleep training is, but does some of sleep training or a cry it out method or anything like that actually harm attachment or like emotional development ⁓ of child? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: You can. I mean, you're going to find whatever you want on the internet. And I just always go back to the science and the actual peer reviewed studies that have showed that no matter what sleep training method you're using, it's not harming anything at all. And in the long run, so hear a lot about the cortisol. And that's like the stress hormone. And a of people will say like, ⁓ well, if you're using like the FURBER method or full extinction where you're just like putting the baby in and they're Let them fall asleep. I'll see you in the morning. Yes, their cortisol is going to rise during that crying time, but when they're sleeping, it's going down and they're evening out. Now, if you think about... that process is going to take maybe a couple nights your child's going to stop crying. They're going to start talking themselves to sleep, babbling, kicking, like rubbing their head. They're finding a way to self-soothe. They're not crying at all anymore at bedtime. So like it is very effective and it works very quickly, but it is a lot of crying, but not damaging. And then you think of like, if parents are like, well, I'm not sleep training and their kid is up several times a night, their body is not going through that healing process where when you're sleeping your cortisol drops so it's actually beneficial to go through the sleep training even if you're doing a harsh method and you're not damaging anything like and i'll say like with my kids i mean i sleep train all three of them differently but like i can definitely attest to there's no problem with the attachment Catie Fitzgerald: get that. I know we have other questions on here, but when you typically recommend ⁓ starting sort of sleep training ⁓ commitment? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: I am a fan of six months old. That is when you're through the four month sleep regression. You can sleep train at four months, but the brain isn't fully ready for nap training. So you can train overnights at four months and have a plan for how to handle naps at that point. And... progressively increase like how many naps a day are in the crib and like it's definitely like more commitment to like this is how we're gonna approach naps until six months old but at six months it is like it's magic like are perfecting naps are getting longer and more consolidated and just a really good time it's before that seven, eight, nine month sleep regression with separation anxiety. And then of course there's another 12 month sleep regression. So the longer you wait, the harder it's gonna get. There's always gonna be more excuses. Between like that four to six month time for at least like bedtime and overnight is like perfect. Catie Fitzgerald: What months are the worst sleep regressions? I know there's like the four month, then. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: The four month is like the most jarring, I think, because you're not really like expecting what a sleep regression really is. Especially like, because some babies who have a really tough four month sleep regression is because they... ⁓ were sleeping great when they were newborn. And I hear it all the time, all the time. They went through the four month sleep regression, but before it, they were sleeping completely through the night. And then the four month sleep regression hit and we thought they'd go back to normal, but they didn't. And now like we're here at like eight, nine, 10 months old and they're still sleeping like garbage because they never taught them how to sleep after that four month sleep regression. So that one's definitely hard. And then... If parents have transitioned to a toddler bed, in my opinion, too soon, the two-year sleep regression is very difficult because they're so much more verbal and have a lot to say and a lot of ⁓ And parents have a hard time with hearing no when their child is two, that regression can become really difficult. And then parents also mistake the two-year sleep regression for time to drop naps. And nine nine to ten, it's not. Catie Fitzgerald: When do you recommend nap dropping? Never. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: mean, of it depends on the child, but I like to wait until closer to three. Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah, I had my older one, he was like two and a half. We were trying to continue his nap, but he would not nap like after the toddler bed transition. Like he just didn't like it. But my younger one, I think he's almost three now. I think he'll continue naps as long as we let him. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but my oldest was like that. He he napped literally like until the summer before kindergarten. My youngest, yeah. My youngest was... I want to say between two and a half and three. Danielle: how golden was but I also I liked it Missy | Slumber And Bloom: But it also like it depends on lifestyle and like schedule so like for me my youngest was he was like two and a half during the summertime and So I had to decide like do I want to let him stay outside and play with all the big kids during like nap time Keep a nap and let him stay up later and go to bed like instead of not taking a nap and going to bed at 7 or take a one hour quick little nap and go to bed at 8 So we kind of held on to the nap for a little bit. And then we were like, OK, like now he's like taking a nap and pushing to 10 o'clock. So it really just depends. There are so many different situations that's. Danielle: Well, even in daycare, both my kids go to different daycares and daycare required nap and quiet time for a certain period. And then they transitioned them out at school or daycare because they knew they had to get them ready for school where Daisy only goes to half day daycare. So that's on me. Like if we're going to nap or not, or with Colton, it was like chosen. that was one of our questions is like, how do you navigate sleep training when there are others involved? I know some people have night nurses, some people travel for work. Catie Fitzgerald: You it is, it really is. Danielle: What is your suggestion there? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Usually it's, I mean, I don't really work a lot with families who have a night nurse because their job is kind of different than what sleep training would entail. But when the parents are on the overnights, then it's a lot easier. Danielle: Yeah. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: to kind of guide them in the direction of exactly what to do at bedtime and overnight. And then for naps, I have them communicate with everyone who is participating in naps, whether it's daycare, nanny, babysitter, grandparents. and let them know, hey, this is what we're doing. We're working with a sleep consultant. I prefer, like I have one client whose kid is in daycare right now and all I want is exact nap times. Like sometimes we'll get like a blanket. Well, nap is from 12 to two. I don't care. I want to know how like, how much is that child actually sleeping that we can navigate? When does bedtime need to be? Because we can't control that. Catie Fitzgerald: Sorry. Danielle: Okay. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Different daycares are gonna have different rules. So I see a lot of struggle a lot honestly with like once they turn one and they wanna move the kid up to like that not quite a baby, not quite a toddler room, they wanna drop to one nap and some kids can't handle it. So then end up getting picked up at like five, 5.30 and they need to go to bed at 6 p.m. because daycare decided to drop them to one nap. But... Danielle: Yep. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: ⁓ kind of have to pick and choose our battles ⁓ then the other issue that I see with daycares is if They have to offer the nap and they can't wake a child up if they start falling asleep And then parents are like my kids not falling asleep until midnight What we gonna do about that? So there are like sometimes I can work with a daycare on keeping the kid awake or waking them after 45 minutes to an hour. It depends on the place. In-home daycares are usually very flexible. Some centers that may be a national chain might have some very strict rules. So I just ask the parents before we even start, before you do that intake assessment form, find out what the rules are at daycare and then we'll create your schedule and routines from there. Danielle: Okay. Catie Fitzgerald: always laughed when my younger one does it more. like sometimes, like just someday, he's, we're all pretty sleep trained in this house now. But were like, just if he's not sleeping well, like he goes down so early and I get like roundabout numbers. I'm not getting exacts. But he'll sleep for like three hours, ⁓ and a half hours there. And I'm like, you slept, I paid for you to go sleep there. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah, because you have a more flexible environment so he can sleep for three and a half Catie Fitzgerald: And you know, in an in-home daycare situation. So she's pretty in tune to each of the kids that are there. So she knows like, hey, he needed to catch up on some sleep or I'll let her know when we had a rough night or you know that, but it also just, it's important to like figure out what those rules are and what the people do. Cause I know that for instance, my sister, I know Michelle won't care us using her example, but her two kids are in a daycare and they nap lights on. like in a crib on the side of the room. Like how is a seven month old napping in those? Yeah. And there's, and she's in a room with 12 month olds. they're sitting up making noise, like moving around and you know, she's, that's her nap time. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: It's so hard. Yeah, yeah, and like that's when I have infants like in an infant room I'm always like, okay are are the cribs around the perimeter of the room with everyone playing in the middle or is it play area here, eating area here, sleep area here because it makes a difference sometimes I will even ask like if the baby is a very sensitive sleeper I will have them ask can we move so-and-so's crib to the furthest corner at least during our sleep training so we can try to get better naps. Can we bring another white noise machine? What can we do to help make this situation better? Because it also helps the entire classroom. If a child is only sleeping for 30 minutes and then they wake up cranky like that, Danielle: Yeah. This reps everyone. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: It just, it, yeah, and it, it like, what's it called? It like takes up one of the teachers to have to go calm that kid down. And then you might have one teacher on seven other kids who are under a year old. So it gets very difficult for everybody involved. Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah, it's a point. Danielle: I think that's one of the benefits of, didn't even know, I think that sleep coaches specifically exist existed the way you are a sleep coach. I thought you bought a program or you to be like a bajillionaire and bring somebody in to sleep at your home. But the benefit you're saying is everybody's kid is different. Situation is different. ⁓ like lifestyle is The fact that you can communicate and help. Catie Fitzgerald: You read a book. Yeah. Danielle: parents ask the right questions or do the right things with their daycare situations is such a big bonus because for me, I didn't even ask those questions, right? Like I didn't know that to ask those questions. I just thought the way it is is the way it is and we have to work around it, right? So like, like, so, you know, but we don't think that way. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Heck no, you're paying that! Catie Fitzgerald: It's a good point though, like people don't, especially first time moms, like you wouldn't know, you don't know the age to do it. You don't know to add, like you feel kind of just pressured to be one of the numbers in the class, right? Or however it is, but you did mention white noise. And I want to get into, cause we put like on here, like, let's talk about tools, but don't let me forget. Cause I want to talk about like toddler sleep and switching to like beds and stuff. but so like they're, Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah. Right. Okay. Catie Fitzgerald: I know like taking care of babies, moms on call, they have like a recommended list of their sleep tools. like we have the hatch sound machines in our house, you know, but we put on here like pacifiers slash binkies or we call them TTs in our house. What's your opinion? Pro. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: I'm not against them. ⁓ After six months old, binky is for sleep only. It stays in the crib. After you pick up that baby in the crib and you get those like sleepy stretchy snuggles, you say bye bye binky and you put it in the crib together and you go about the day. That way they're only associating it with sleep and that's a positive sleep association. The white noise, positive sleep association. It's not something that ⁓ need to physically get up and get out bed to do, ⁓ brings me to the next point. At six months old, your baby should be able to start putting it in their mouths by themselves. So we like to sprinkle pacifiers in the crib let them find it on their own. During sleep training, babies are either going to... attached to the binky and use it in their own way. Like sometimes I kind of giggle when when I like hear this story, but like I do hear frequently, well they're not using it right. They're just kind of chewing on it. Who cares? It's serving! Catie Fitzgerald: It's a good point, who cares? Danielle: I know it should be gone, but she has one in her mouth and bad in one upper nose like she literally puts it at her nose Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Well, my oldest, he always, we called it his backup bank because he had the one in his mouth and he had one he would like, it was like the green soother ones and he would keep it on his finger all night. And yeah, so if it is helpful, then keep offering it. Danielle: No stroke before faking. Catie Fitzgerald: ⁓ here it is. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: If it is a problem where you have to get up every hour, like every sleep cycle, which can be 30 to 40, 45 minutes, and you have to pop that pacifier back in their mouth, that's not useful. So that's when it's like, let's reduce the use of this find other ways to self soothe. It doesn't mean you can't use it at all anymore. And not against it. I'm just against parents having to get out of bed 50 times overnight to give it back. And then as far as like when to get rid of it, I like to wait until two and a half. There's a lot going on between two and three, between transitioning to the toddler bed, two year sleep regression, potty training, potential nighttime potty training, because we know that those are two different things. Losing the pacifier, possibly getting a new sibling, maybe starting a preschool. There's so many big changes around then that I don't see a point, and especially if you're following my rule where the pacifier is only for sleep. It is not that big of a deal to keep the pacifier until your child is old enough to start understanding, okay, we need to do bye bye binky. And I'm all for the cute strategies. Plant that binky and have little lollipops grow. I don't care what you do. love cheesy toddler strategies because anything a toddler loves and can get down with, great. Danielle: Yeah. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: There's like there's as long as there's like no harm to anybody else involved fantastic Catie Fitzgerald: Absolutely. think too, mentioned like one of the things being adding additional siblings in. How you, how does that typically, I'm sure it's in your intake form when you talk to that, but what's like your general, you know, or ⁓ some, something can about having like a little one in the house, but you have a toddler that's just sleeping. Now you have another one that's crying in the night, like managing both schedules too. Cause I mean, I had two under two. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah. Same. Yeah. Catie Fitzgerald: We were sleep training everybody at the same time for the most part. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: I mean, the biggest thing is, like when I was pregnant with my second, I would literally go through my day and be like, okay, so this is a routine with the oldest. I know now, I know the chaos of a newborn. During these times, can, you know, like do X, Y, with a newborn or try and get a shower or like there will be overlapping naps. And you... This is like another, people might get mad at this word, but you need to train your kid to be able to play independently because toddler needs to be able to play or do something independently, look at a book, do something so that you have a little bit of sanity. ⁓ And it's okay. Put your kid on the floor to play. Let them play with toys and just sit back and watch. You don't have to entertain your kid 24 hours a day. one thing that I ⁓ really doing with my first and second, because they're only 16 months apart, was whenever I was feeding my second, my baby, my first was sitting right next to me reading her a book. Danielle: I'm Missy | Slumber And Bloom: So we're getting that special, like you're not really interacting with a newborn while they're eating. You don't want to be because they need to get it done and move on. Until they're older, like whatever, yeah, it's all bonding. It was just a job for me. It was never. Danielle: Yeah. Catie Fitzgerald: You Missy | Slumber And Bloom: It was never like, ⁓ I love this, like fantastic, wonderful, do that at bedtime. But during the day when you have more than one kid, like give the other kid a job. If you're changing diapers, like change both of their diapers at the same time. So like those kinds of things. I'm like, okay, well, if we're doing a meal, then you know, the toddler is in their high chair having their meal. Maybe the baby is sitting facing. the toddler watching them eat so they're getting face time with that kid instead of just always looking at you they're making bonds with their sibling so always just kind of thinking of like those things that you can incorporate into the day to make it easier have like specific times like i mean newborns are so easy because they'll sleep anywhere have a specific time like cater to your toddler's schedule if your toddler has nap a day and you know that's going to be the same time every day because they're sleep and they're gonna be on the schedule and you want to be able to go to the playground in the morning, have breakfast, go to the playground, come back, do the nap, live your life. with newborns, it's like, it's so much easier than people think. Catie Fitzgerald: was no better feeling than when the first time that our naps aligned for both kids and they were both napping were like, this is it. We ⁓ 30 minutes, but it's something. It was like the most rewarding when they were both finally asleep. So I wanna talk about two toddlers and transitioning to big kid beds. What's your age recommendation on that? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: And then they started taking out the other. I don't like to transition before two and a half. It's a like, it's very similar to the pacifier thing where their cognitive ability and just like boundaries two and a half, they may not understand the like, that there may not be a physical boundary of a crib. Like this is my crib, I sleep here, I stay here. As soon as you give them freedom, if they're not ⁓ ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: mature enough. I hate using the word mature with a two-year-old, but if they don't understand, this is still my bed and I have to sleep here. I have to stay here after mommy says good night. They're just gonna get up and follow you out. But you either need to have a baby gate. Like of course there's kids like my daughter was a climber. She climbed out of her crib at 18 months old I definitely rigged the crib so she couldn't. But if you can't do that, then you might have to switch to a toddler bed and in that case Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: put a mattress on the floor, toddler proof the room and close the door or put a gate at the door. They don't have to stay in bed. And that I think is of the biggest like struggles that I think a lot of parents face when they're moving their kid to a bed because they are going to explore that freedom. Make safe. Make it because my daughter's room might've looked like a jail cell, but she was safe. Catie Fitzgerald: You Missy | Slumber And Bloom: She had a mattress. I took her dresser out of her room and I put it in my room until she learned bedtime is bedtime and I stay in bed. But they need to get up and explore. So just keep it safe for them. Either have a gate at the door, use a childproof knob. There's things, I think it's called like a door monkey that like an app on your phone and you put it on their doorknob and like they can open the door and get out of their room, but it sends you a notification that they left. ⁓ Catie Fitzgerald: I think I've seen that. I think I've seen it. It would be good. ⁓ Danielle: But they laugh. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: I would never do that because, no way. My fear was always, my child going to get up in the middle of the night, I'm not gonna hear her or some stupid alarm on my phone that I'm probably not gonna hear, and she's gonna go outside and take a walk. ⁓ Danielle: did that to my mom. So that stresses me out so bad because she tells me this story all the time. I'm like, I just opened the door and left. He's like, yeah. Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah, and some parents are like, oh, you want me to lock my kid in their room? Change your mindset. You're keeping your child safe in their room. And for me, I'm like, well, if you don't want to use that, then put a gate up. Oh, they're going to climb over a gate. There's always an excuse. Let's stop making excuses and start finding solutions. Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah. Yeah. Danielle: No, I like that. And then I do because you said it in the beginning, you sleep training can last until like sometimes six years old. So I know parents who are entering that era of parenting and now their kids, Daisy, she wakes up, she's three, she wakes up, she calls me, she will not leave bed until I come release her from bed. But in a year or whatever, she may decide I can get out of bed. Catie Fitzgerald: You Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah. Danielle: There's people I know that are dealing with issues with their kids leaving, they're awake and they want to wake everyone else in the house up. And there might be a ⁓ baby that's still sleeping or the parents don't want to wake up at 430 AM. I've heard a lot of different strategies. You can do the hatch light, like the alarm screen, go like any suggestions for parents who are dealing now with later life regression or new sleep training. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah, I mean, I love toddlers and preschoolers for the reason that they can communicate and they can be held accountable. They can make their own choices and there will either be rewards or consequences. it's something that like I'll teach parents my like my, what's it called, like my reward strategy. I'll teach them my consequences strategy. And it's not just for sleep. It is for all behavior because sleep training is behavior modification. So ⁓ time, like even like the rewards that you use for potty training, you can use it for picking up your room or helping with the dishes or like whatever behavior you're trying to modify. You can use rewards and consequences. And if you're using the Danielle: No. ⁓ Missy | Slumber And Bloom: it's like, okay, red is for bed, green you can be seen, do not get out of bed if the light is red, and they get out of bed, they're either going to not get a reward and that's gonna be enough for them to be upset, or there's going to be a consequence ⁓ okay, you got out of bed so you can't have X, Y, Z. ⁓ every kid is different, where some ⁓ very well to a reward system, some don't care. Some are like, I don't care if you give me something, but I do care if you take something away. And you have to know your child. So ⁓ where I say like with potty training, like if a kid just decides, I don't want to stop what I'm doing. I like this toy. I'm going to pee my pants. You're taking that toy away for the rest of the day. If that's a child who's more affected by consequences, it's not mean it's a natural consequence. using like any natural consequence around the situation is best. like If your child doesn't like their door being shut, but they refuse to stay in bed, it's I will give you three chances. Stay in bed or your door gets shut. they get to three and they're still getting out of bed. You shut that door and you need to keep it shut. And it's that's where like the consistency and the follow through and sticking with it and being committed. That's where that all comes in handy. And sometimes parents are like, Oh, I feel mean. It's not mean you're parenting your child. Like you can't always be their best friend and you have to have boundaries and you have to stick with them, especially with toddlers and preschoolers, because if you give an inch, they're taking 500 miles. Danielle: You guys have a good day. Well, you have to restart all, like really restart all over again. And you said that when I was taking the potty training course. And I think that that's one of the biggest things, takeaways for me, because I have a lot of people in my kids' lives who help support. So like picking timing of when you can actually show up as the parent and make sure that it's consistent is important. Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah. Danielle: Like the other piece of that is, was so close in certain moments where people were like in my life, where I just put the diaper on her because we're taking a trip in case she And I'm like, no, like if she pees, she pees. Like we can't take a trip longer than 30 minutes right now. ⁓ And she pees, we have to be prepared that she peed to talk through it and like whatever. And that was hard. ⁓ It inconvenient for people. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: get the Piddle pad. Right. Yeah. Sorry, I have a kid. Danielle: And that's like the thing, you're saying, like you, you've got to make it, you all have to be on the, like the same mental page that like, doesn't matter how inconvenient this is for us. Like we're going to, I, and it's like you're saying, you're not being mean by shutting the door. Yes, they're going to cry. They don't want the door shut, but if you don't do it, they're going to know I can still get out of bed. Mommy and daddy aren't going to shut the door. It's just. Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah. Yeah. Right. like, especially like when there's parents who are a little bit apprehensive about doing that, they can, the way that they tell their child, okay, I need to shut the door now because you're not listening to the rules. These are the rules and you are not following them. I need to shut the door. I will come back and kiss you once you're asleep. That's not mean. It's very loving. It's very caring. It's, you know, like there's a way to communicate things with your child. If you're like, you went out of bed three times, I'm shutting your door, slam. Yeah, that's mean. But there's a loving way to communicate rules and boundaries with your child. that's where like the misconception of sleep training comes in. It's like, ⁓ I'm just going to close the door until morning. ⁓ no, I'll come back and kiss you. I still go in and kiss my kids all the time. They're fine. ⁓ Danielle: Yeah. Yeah, I'm scared. Me too. Catie Fitzgerald: Well, I think that's a good point though. A lot of people struggle with like, ⁓ it's mean, especially going from like newborn, like that first year, like they're just your little buddy. You know, yeah, you do some sleep training, but like they can't talk to you. There's no communication with that. And I feel like I've just started to get to the point of like disciplining and like some of that. And it is a struggle for a lot of people because they're like, wait, like just so cute and innocent and that like, how can I be mad? But then your kid starts pushing your buttons and not felt. you're like, ⁓ have Missy | Slumber And Bloom: and then they're not so cute in that moment. Catie Fitzgerald: do something about this. can't just be their friend anymore. And being a couple of my friends are like, are you just kind of like, do feel like you're yelling all the time? And it's like, sometimes when they're trying but but it's a good this is like a good mindset, like adjustment of like, okay, well, there are more moments. Yes, we all in this house. And I know that everyone does. But like, sometimes it's like, that's how you get their their attention. Do we do that all the time? ⁓ not. So your point of like, how you communicate is important. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah. Catie Fitzgerald: and making it seem like mom's not the bad guy. Like I want to communicate in a loving way, but here are the rules. I feel like it's a really big adjustment to that. ⁓ Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah. And I think too, like with toddlers, like giving them responsibility at bedtime like having visual charts. Like I have free bedtime routine cards that also comes with morning routine cards where parents can print them out and hang them at their child's level. So it's okay, start the bedtime routine. What do we do first? And your child's in charge. They're going to go brush their teeth and either they're going to brush their teeth first and then you're going to check and make sure they did a good job or the other way around, like however you want to do it. Give your toddler autonomous capabilities, let them do things by themselves because that's what toddlers need to do. That's literally in their brain. They are learning that they can do things for themselves. Let them. Then bedtime will go better. Let them pick their pajamas. Does it matter if they're on backwards? No. Who cares? Let them. Let them pick the book that they want to read. If you don't want to read certain books at bedtime, take them out of the room and don't let it be an option. Let your child pick, okay, go pick two books. We'll read, let's sit in the rocking chair. You can turn the pages. it's time to turn off the light. You go turn it off. Turn on your white noise. Let's go say night night out the window when we close the blinds. Night night moon, night night stars, like all the things. And your kid has ⁓ these things that they've already done independently and they've made all these choices that when it's time to get in bed and they have all these visual cues, so it's less pressure on the parents saying, okay, now you do this, now you do this, now you do this. It's just demanding. Danielle: and Missy | Slumber And Bloom: demand, demand, demand. But when you put it on the toddler, it's so much more rewarding too when you see like, wow, my kid is capable of so much. Danielle: And they feel good. They feel good. You feel good. It's like a double looped reward system for everybody involved. And that is hard. like, I like to be in control of certain things, but you just kind of got to let, and I did exactly what you said. Like these are the books that we're going to have in here. These are the pajamas. Like you go pick because I had some control, but like not full control. And I'm not going to correct you because they're on backwards, whatever. It's fine. Catie Fitzgerald: What in Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Yeah. Nah, you gotta let it go. My gay moms probably have a very hard time with toddlers. Danielle: Like it's just different. I'm not even full type A, but it was, it's still like still hard. I don't know. I think that that's like what you're saying is so important because the earlier you get to go down that path, it is hard. will tell you from experience. I did not do that very well with Colton Daisy. I have, it's been much harder to break it because I did, I, I controlled for a lot longer in that scenario, but ⁓ know we're coming up on time and I just want to make sure two things. ⁓ what's one tip. that you wish you could tell every parent, like the one thing you would tell every Missy | Slumber And Bloom: It is not your job to put your child to sleep. Your job is to give your child the tools to be able to fall asleep on their own. ⁓ Danielle: This is gonna lead to a follow-up for you. What if, and this is not part of the follow-up, but what if you're the type of parent, I'm gonna use myself as the example, okay? Colton's getting older, like to put him to bed, it's when he talks to me, he tells me all the things that, and ⁓ time for me. And one day he's gonna look at me and say, mom, this is cringe, right now he told me I'm rizz, but I'm gonna be cringe soon. So like, Catie Fitzgerald: What a Missy | Slumber And Bloom: My kids too. It's the best time of year. Yeah. Danielle: I'm scared it's gonna end, but he does want me still to put him to bed. What should I be doing in that scenario? Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Well, I mean, is he sleeping through the night after that? Then fine. Do it for as long as you want to. Danielle: Yeah. Okay. because I like I'm doing because I want to not that it's my job, right? Okay. That makes sense. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Right. Yeah. No, I what I what I normally see is like the mom I mentioned at the beginning who was like I rocked her to sleep because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. But Danielle: Okay. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: when she has to do it all night long, then that's not sustainable and it's not working anymore. That's when we make changes. So for me, I'm like, whatever works for you is what works for you. I'm not out here to change like everyone's favorite part of their day and take away their cuddles. could never. I still I get in I get in my kids beds at night and I cuddle with them and we talk about their days. They're they I don't know if they'll be cringed out that I'm telling this but they're nine. Danielle: Okay. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: 11 and 12 and I'm still getting in their beds. I'm rubbing their baths. Yeah, like I boys boomerang. They'll be like don't don't in my bed like that's weird and then they'll come back and be like can you get in my bed like my 12 year old he's still he'll be like they'll be like ⁓ wait let me let me move and get comfortable let me move over give you some room. Okay they still get in my bed in the morning we cuddle before they go to school. Don't tell him I told you. Danielle: Good. This gives me hope for my future. Yes. Yeah, I'm excited. I won't tell them, but I'm going to tell my son if he tells me to get out. Look, I know moms. He hasn't told me yet, but it's okay. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: I know. You know, don't, don't know. How old is he? Catie Fitzgerald: Yeah, I can't even think about that. We do have as part of our routine every night and my younger one does it now and it's the cutest for he's two and a half. And he goes, let's talk about our day. And like that's part that's part of like after we do books, we turn the light off. And that's what they both want to do as soon as we do it. And they like tell us their version of the day. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: I love it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's actually something I tell parents to do when the child's going through separation anxiety. I don't care how old they are. You have to start young with narrating things and telling them about the day. Tell them what you're doing. Like newborns, mommy's going to go pee-pee. Tell them. Tell them what you're doing. Because as they get older, it helps. And when they're going through separation anxiety, talking about the day and all the wonderful things they did, it helps. Talking about what they're going to do tomorrow. Danielle: Thank No. Catie Fitzgerald: You gotta talk to somebody. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: it helps. Having something to look forward to as long as it's not like, we're going to Disney World tomorrow, they're never gonna go to sleep. But like as long as you're within reason, it's all good. Danielle: Yeah. Catie Fitzgerald: Well, we appreciate having you on. feel like we could talk for hours about this stuff. So if anyone out there has questions for Missy, we have all of her contact info to these episodes. So you can reach out, send us a message on Instagram, tag her. She'll be be on there and available. And if you're interested in any of her sleep consultant information, we'll have her link to her website here too. So Slumber in Bloom is the name of Missy's bit. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: we don't. Yeah, yep. And there's always a free 15 minute introductory call. So if people are like, not sure is this for me? Are we a good fit? Let's just chat like there's no harm in booking a quick 15. Yeah, you never know the possibilities. Danielle: Yeah, that's huge. Catie Fitzgerald: Well, thanks so much for coming on. We'll see you all next time. Missy | Slumber And Bloom: Thanks for having me. Bye.