Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #889 Talking to Your Kids About a Suicide

Transcript

#889 Talking to Your Kids About a Suicide · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:01
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family's podcast.
0:04
Speaker 2: Today's conversation is not a conversation for kids. We encourage
0:09
Speaker 2: parents to make sure that you're aware of who's listening
0:12
Speaker 2: to this discussion and make sure that only mature years
0:16
Speaker 2: are participating in today's Happy Families podcasts. Hello, my name's Sobs.
0:22
Speaker 2: Justin course, I'm here with my wife and mom to
0:24
Speaker 2: our six daughters, Kylie, missus Happy Families. By now, you
0:28
Speaker 2: would probably be well aware if you listened to a
0:30
Speaker 2: podcast or follow us on social media, that we've had
0:32
Speaker 2: a pretty rough week. Yesterday's podcast was one of the
0:35
Speaker 2: most important conversations we may have ever had on the podcast.
0:38
Speaker 1: I hope that you've got a lot from it.
0:40
Speaker 2: When I posted about my nephew's death last week, we
0:46
Speaker 2: were overwhelmed with the incredible volume of support but also
0:53
Speaker 2: grief that was shown on those social media platforms, on
0:58
Speaker 2: Facebook and on Instagram. And one thing that we saw
1:02
Speaker 2: more than perhaps anything, is just how many people have
1:05
Speaker 2: been touched by profound loss through suicide. Many, many, many
1:11
Speaker 2: people said to us, how do we talk to our
1:13
Speaker 2: kids about this? And so that's what we're going to
1:16
Speaker 2: attempt to answer in today's conversation and because we try
1:22
Speaker 2: on this podcast to make this a podcast for time
1:25
Speaker 2: poor parents who do just want answers. Now, we're going
1:28
Speaker 2: to do our best to move through this at a
1:30
Speaker 2: pace that is respectful and considered, but that also is
1:34
Speaker 2: very much about getting straight to the point.
1:37
Speaker 3: I think this is a conversation that nobody wants to
1:40
Speaker 3: be having with anyone, but especially your children. And you
1:44
Speaker 3: think about your job as a parent, it's to protect
1:47
Speaker 3: them and to have to open their eyes and hearts
1:50
Speaker 3: up to just the pain of these kinds of conversations.
1:55
Speaker 3: It's really hard.
1:56
Speaker 2: So we've had several of these conversations over the last
1:59
Speaker 2: few days, as you would probably be aware, with that
2:01
Speaker 2: many kids and that many questions, so let's dive into it.
2:05
Speaker 2: Lots of people have been asking. And I should also
2:08
Speaker 2: mention the principles that we're sharing will apply across the
2:11
Speaker 2: board when it comes to talking about profound loss and
2:13
Speaker 2: specifically suicide with your children. But the closer you are
2:17
Speaker 2: to the pain and the grief, the more these things
2:21
Speaker 2: will be helpful. If you are at a distance and
2:24
Speaker 2: it's a friend of a friend or your children over
2:26
Speaker 2: here something, then you'll probably be able to go a
2:29
Speaker 2: lot lighter on the things that we're talking about. Nevertheless,
2:32
Speaker 2: the same principles will apply, and it will be up
2:33
Speaker 2: to you as a parent to use your discretion to
2:36
Speaker 2: step into these conversations wisely and with so much compassion.
2:41
Speaker 2: The first thing that I want to emphasize is that
2:43
Speaker 2: we have limited research evidence on how to conduct these conversations,
2:46
Speaker 2: specifically on this topic. Now, there's plenty of research out
2:49
Speaker 2: there about how to have difficult conversations, and that's what
2:51
Speaker 2: we're primarily going to lean on. There is only a
2:54
Speaker 2: little bit of evidence that's out there is not particularly strong,
2:57
Speaker 2: and I guess we can be grateful for that. If
3:00
Speaker 2: there's no need to have the conversation, I would actually
3:04
Speaker 2: discourage you from having one. And there are plenty of
3:06
Speaker 2: times where there might not be a need. For example,
3:10
Speaker 2: there may be considerable distance between the person who has
3:13
Speaker 2: died and your child. They may not even be aware
3:16
Speaker 2: of them. Or there may be just a cursory discussion
3:19
Speaker 2: where we can say, yes, we're really sad because a
3:22
Speaker 2: friend of ours has passed away, has died, and that's
3:26
Speaker 2: kind of all you need to do when there is distance.
3:29
Speaker 2: As the relationship gets closer, that's when we obviously begin
3:33
Speaker 2: to address it. I guess the other thing that I'd
3:34
Speaker 2: say as a preliminary discussion point is we really want
3:38
Speaker 2: to keep at level.
3:39
Speaker 1: Suicide can provoke.
3:41
Speaker 2: Very strong reactions in us, and even in our children.
3:45
Speaker 2: It seems that there's a visceral and immediately recognized understanding
3:51
Speaker 2: that what we're talking about is serious.
3:54
Speaker 3: I think, from my end, the most important thing for
3:57
Speaker 3: me was that our relationships with children are built on trust,
4:02
Speaker 3: and that while these conversations are really hard, honesty is
4:06
Speaker 3: really important.
4:07
Speaker 2: I've always defined trust as believing that the other person
4:10
Speaker 2: is going to act in your best interests, and in
4:13
Speaker 2: conversations like these, our children need to really believe that
4:16
Speaker 2: we are going to act in their best interests. And
4:19
Speaker 2: all of the research evidence from places like the National
4:21
Speaker 2: Scent of Childhood Grief. I've looked up so many research
4:24
Speaker 2: articles and so many tip sheets and fact sheets on this,
4:27
Speaker 2: and every single university, every single psychology clinic, everyone who's
4:32
Speaker 2: out there consistently says honesty is the best policy.
4:35
Speaker 3: I think it's showing our children that we actually honor
4:39
Speaker 3: the questions that they have. They need to know that
4:43
Speaker 3: as their parents, we're willing to go to the hard
4:47
Speaker 3: places to help them understand the world better.
4:50
Speaker 2: The real trick is doing it in an age appropriate way.
4:55
Speaker 2: It has to be developmentally appropriate. So let's talk about
4:57
Speaker 2: some developmental realities here. We'll start with youngest children for
5:01
Speaker 2: young children, and I'm talking about kids under six or seven.
5:04
Speaker 2: So when we've got two and three and four year olds,
5:07
Speaker 2: you can almost say nothing. I mean literally, they're just
5:10
Speaker 2: not going to be attentive enough and picking up on
5:13
Speaker 2: it unless it's somebody within their immediate family or somebody
5:16
Speaker 2: that they were extremely close to. Let's assume though, that
5:19
Speaker 2: it is somebody that they're extremely close to keep it
5:22
Speaker 2: simple and go with what I call the fire hose principle.
5:26
Speaker 2: I've shared this in a variety of different contexts over
5:29
Speaker 2: the years on the podcast and elsewhere, but essentially, if
5:31
Speaker 2: somebody's thirsty, it would be rare that we would hand
5:35
Speaker 2: them the fire hose, tell them to open up their mouth,
5:38
Speaker 2: and then crank that bad boy up. That's going to
5:40
Speaker 2: cause potentially a whole lot of damage, and it's certainly
5:44
Speaker 2: going to do anything except quench their first. Our job
5:47
Speaker 2: as parents is not to tell them everything, and the
5:51
Speaker 2: younger they are, the more this principle applies, But even
5:53
Speaker 2: as they get older, we still need to be judicious
5:56
Speaker 2: and discerning in.
5:57
Speaker 1: What we say.
5:58
Speaker 2: Rather than turning on the fire hosey. It's much better
6:01
Speaker 2: when somebody says I'm thirsty to give them a glass
6:04
Speaker 2: of water, and once they've completed that glass of water,
6:08
Speaker 2: simply to say would you like any more water? And
6:11
Speaker 2: refill it or give them a half a cup or
6:13
Speaker 2: whatever it.
6:13
Speaker 1: Is that they need.
6:15
Speaker 2: When it comes to talking about difficult topics, and particularly
6:18
Speaker 2: a topic such as suicide, the fire hose principle applies.
6:22
Speaker 2: Give them a sip, and if they ask for another sip,
6:24
Speaker 2: let them have that. Our children will have questions. We
6:28
Speaker 2: should answer those questions in a developmentally appropriate way to
6:31
Speaker 2: the degree that they're curious. But no further, they may
6:35
Speaker 2: say something like what does dead mean? I mean, if
6:37
Speaker 2: they're young enough, they may not. Children don't understand the
6:40
Speaker 2: permanency of death, especially when they're around that three or
6:43
Speaker 2: four age group. It's once they get four or five, six, yeah,
6:46
Speaker 2: when they come back. And that's why it's important that
6:48
Speaker 2: we don't use phrases like gone to sleep or gone away.
6:52
Speaker 1: We need to be much more concrete.
6:53
Speaker 2: In fact, when I wrote the article that went on
6:56
Speaker 2: to social media and was obviously seen by so many
6:58
Speaker 2: people after it was partly the hardest sentence for me
7:02
Speaker 2: to write and then to read and to have my
7:04
Speaker 2: parents and my siblings and my nieces and nephews read,
7:09
Speaker 2: was the Three Woods.
7:11
Speaker 1: Because he's dead.
7:13
Speaker 2: And yet those words matter in being straightforward and simple
7:19
Speaker 2: and truthful with our kids. If they're young, you might say,
7:22
Speaker 2: do you know what being dead means? And you can
7:24
Speaker 2: give them examples of a pet that died, or perhaps
7:26
Speaker 2: grandparents or an auntie or uncle that died, but they
7:30
Speaker 2: need to understand what dead means. And when it comes
7:32
Speaker 2: to something like suicide, it's completely appropriate for you to
7:34
Speaker 2: say something like, this person had a disease in their
7:38
Speaker 2: head and they died. It's very sad. Now, a statement
7:42
Speaker 2: like that is truthful. We know that things like depression
7:46
Speaker 2: are diseases of the mind, and when we say that
7:49
Speaker 2: for a young child, that can often be enough. Now,
7:51
Speaker 2: as they get older, if that stays with them and
7:53
Speaker 2: they contemplate it, they may come back to us and say,
7:55
Speaker 2: how what does that mean?
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Speaker 1: What does a disease in my head mean?
7:58
Speaker 2: Can I get a disease in my head, and then
8:00
Speaker 2: they're looking more for empathy than they are looking for definite,
8:05
Speaker 2: clear answers, and they need a little bit of both.
8:07
Speaker 2: In those circumstances, we want to answer them honestly, but
8:10
Speaker 2: with lots of empathy. But for young children, those would
8:12
Speaker 2: be my central points. Keep it really simple, use the
8:16
Speaker 2: principle of the fire hose, make sure that they understand
8:18
Speaker 2: what being dead means, and emphasize that this person had
8:23
Speaker 2: a disease in their head and they died, and everybody's
8:26
Speaker 2: very sad about that.
8:27
Speaker 3: I was kind of hoping that that's what we'd get
8:29
Speaker 3: away with our nine year old when we received the
8:34
Speaker 3: devastating news last week, but that wasn't the case. When
8:38
Speaker 3: we first found out, we just let her know that
8:40
Speaker 3: her cousin had passed away and left it at that,
8:43
Speaker 3: and she was okay. But as the day wore on
8:46
Speaker 3: and the conversations between her sisters and us continued and
8:50
Speaker 3: the gravity of the loss was felt, she knew that
8:56
Speaker 3: this was actually different. It was different, a difference to
9:01
Speaker 3: the grief that we were experiencing in our home, and
9:04
Speaker 3: sitting around the dinner table, she wanted to know what happened,
9:09
Speaker 3: and she actually asked how did he die? And that
9:12
Speaker 3: was a really hard conversation to have, but I knew
9:16
Speaker 3: that in spite of the fact that I wanted to
9:18
Speaker 3: protect her, I actually needed to be honest with her.
9:21
Speaker 2: So let's build on what we've talked about. For young children,
9:24
Speaker 2: those same principles apply. We want to keep it simple,
9:28
Speaker 2: we want to use the principle of the fire hose,
9:30
Speaker 2: and we want to make sure that they understand the
9:33
Speaker 2: meanings of the words. You were masterful. As we sat
9:36
Speaker 2: around the dining table last Monday night, the first thing
9:40
Speaker 2: that we did was we said to the children, everybody's
9:42
Speaker 2: had a pretty rough day. It's been a really, really
9:44
Speaker 2: bumpy day for us emotionally. Does anybody have any questions?
9:49
Speaker 2: And the first question to come up came from Emily
9:53
Speaker 2: middle childhood. We're talking about kids seven to twelve. She's
9:57
Speaker 2: right in the center of that, age nine, and she's said,
10:01
Speaker 2: how did he die? And that's when you, instead of
10:04
Speaker 2: just diving in and answering the question, asked her a question,
10:08
Speaker 2: have you ever heard of suicide? Do you know what
10:11
Speaker 2: suicide means? She was hesitant and unsure, but she took
10:15
Speaker 2: a guess and she was right. She didn't know what
10:18
Speaker 2: it meant, and so we began a conversation about how
10:21
Speaker 2: that was how Logan had died.
10:24
Speaker 1: But then she wanted more detail. She said, how did
10:27
Speaker 1: he do it?
10:28
Speaker 2: And once again, based on all the very best research
10:31
Speaker 2: that I can find, and based on the best advice
10:33
Speaker 2: from the very best advisory groups that exists, we decided
10:36
Speaker 2: that honesty was the best policy. And I took a
10:38
Speaker 2: hugely deep breath. I was walking around the table at
10:41
Speaker 2: the time and walking past you, and I put my
10:43
Speaker 2: hand on your shoulder and thought, oh, no, how do
10:45
Speaker 2: we do this? And you stepped straight in and, in
10:49
Speaker 2: minor detail, without giving anything more than a gentle little
10:53
Speaker 2: sip of water to her metaphorically, you explained enough, at
10:59
Speaker 2: which point her desire for information was satisfied. She didn't
11:04
Speaker 2: ask for any more, and we were able to move
11:07
Speaker 2: the conversation forward from there. I think when it comes
11:10
Speaker 2: to middle childhood and even with teenagers, those are going
11:13
Speaker 2: to be the best principles for us to lean on.
11:15
Speaker 2: It's the fire hose principle. It's keeping it simple, it's
11:17
Speaker 2: answering questions to the degree to which they're curious, offering
11:22
Speaker 2: lots of empathy and making sure that they understand with
11:31
Speaker 2: everything that we've said, let's run through a handful of
11:34
Speaker 2: general points. This may be a little bit repetitive, but
11:37
Speaker 2: it's worth doing it, and there's definitely some ideas that
11:39
Speaker 2: we haven't shared so far. The first one, keep it simple.
11:43
Speaker 2: The second one operate on the principle of the fire hose.
11:47
Speaker 2: The third one. If they ask why, tell them, but
11:52
Speaker 2: keep it age appropriate. They don't need to know all
11:54
Speaker 2: of the skeletons in the closet, just the basics, and
11:57
Speaker 2: the more general you can be safe, you'll be particularly
12:01
Speaker 2: when they're young. So the person had a disease in
12:03
Speaker 2: their head and they died and it's very sad. Is
12:07
Speaker 2: a wonderful start. If they say, what do you mean,
12:09
Speaker 2: we might have a conversation about depression or I mean,
12:12
Speaker 2: it's different in every family. There might have been something
12:15
Speaker 2: going on in terms of money problems or relationship problems
12:19
Speaker 2: or whatever, but we want to try to protect our
12:22
Speaker 2: children and our broader family to the degree that that's
12:25
Speaker 2: responsible behavior. Next, if they ask how, the National Scent
12:32
Speaker 2: of Childhood Grief says to tell them, but to keep
12:34
Speaker 2: it age appropriate. Next, remember that talking about it actually
12:39
Speaker 2: helps to dispel misinformation and stigma, and rather than creating
12:44
Speaker 2: ideas in our children's head. Research indicates that it creates
12:48
Speaker 2: a safe space to ask questions. And so you want
12:52
Speaker 2: to encourage your children to ask questions at any time
12:56
Speaker 2: and to talk with you at any time. And that's
12:58
Speaker 2: something that we've done all week long, for the last
13:01
Speaker 2: week and a half, that's all we've done.
13:04
Speaker 3: The powerful thing about being able to have conversations with
13:08
Speaker 3: your kids, honest, heartfelt conversations with them, is that they
13:13
Speaker 3: are so perceptive. And as the week has gone on,
13:17
Speaker 3: the emotions have varied, and it varied in intensity and
13:25
Speaker 3: have been different from day to day. You know, you
13:27
Speaker 3: talk about the stages of grief. There's been anchor, there's
13:30
Speaker 3: been deep, deep sadness, there's been just a lot of
13:35
Speaker 3: hurt and pain. And because of those honest conversations, I
13:42
Speaker 3: think that the children haven't felt afraid of them because
13:48
Speaker 3: they've understood the depth and the immensity of the situation,
13:54
Speaker 3: even if they don't fully understand it, because we were
13:57
Speaker 3: honest with them. When we're not able to have those
14:00
Speaker 3: conversations with our kids, they're left wondering and they fill
14:03
Speaker 3: in the gaps of what they think's going on, and
14:08
Speaker 3: that's never helpful for anyone.
14:11
Speaker 1: Thank you.
14:11
Speaker 2: Let me share a couple of other ideas that matter
14:13
Speaker 2: a lot. Now I've already said this, but I want
14:15
Speaker 2: to reemphasize at research shows that talking about it safely
14:17
Speaker 2: doesn't exacerbate or amplify risk. In fact, you and I
14:21
Speaker 2: have had a very very clear conversation with our kids,
14:25
Speaker 2: very very clear, and one thing that we did was
14:28
Speaker 2: I shared a story about how early in our marriage
14:30
Speaker 2: we didn't have any kind of disagreement or argument in
14:32
Speaker 2: our marriage for at least nine months, ten months, but
14:35
Speaker 2: somewhere towards the end of the first year of our marriage,
14:38
Speaker 2: we had our first argument, our first blow up, and
14:41
Speaker 2: we'd never had one before, and so I don't know
14:43
Speaker 2: how big it actually was, but it felt like a doozy.
14:46
Speaker 2: And during the course of that argument, what twenty five
14:49
Speaker 2: years ago now, you said something about getting divorced, and
14:53
Speaker 2: I remember in that moment I said to you something
14:56
Speaker 2: along the lines of, we can never use that word
14:59
Speaker 2: in the context of this relationship. It's off the table.
15:02
Speaker 2: It's not an option. We don't joke about it, and
15:04
Speaker 2: we absolutely don't threaten it. We are committed to one another.
15:07
Speaker 2: We love one another, and we will work this out. Now,
15:10
Speaker 2: in hindsight, I don't necessarily believe that entirely. If somebody
15:13
Speaker 2: is in a relationship that is not safe, then divorce
15:16
Speaker 2: has to be an option. In fact, the reason the
15:20
Speaker 2: divorce exists is so that we can make sure that
15:23
Speaker 2: we do treat each other well. But I think that
15:26
Speaker 2: taking it off the table change the nature of our relationship.
15:29
Speaker 2: We looked at the decision we'd made to be married
15:31
Speaker 2: as irreversible, and because we knew that we were safe together,
15:35
Speaker 2: it was good that it was irreversible. We shared that
15:38
Speaker 2: with our children one at a time, as we sat
15:40
Speaker 2: with them and talked about Logan's death and we talked
15:43
Speaker 2: about suicide. We said that in the same way that
15:46
Speaker 2: it's fine to use the word divorce, it's fine to
15:48
Speaker 2: talk about the concept of divorce and even to talk
15:50
Speaker 2: about people who have been divorced. In the context of
15:53
Speaker 2: our relationship, we don't talk about that as being an option,
15:56
Speaker 2: because we love each other and we will work through
15:59
Speaker 2: the challenge that we have when they arise. Similarly, when
16:02
Speaker 2: it comes to suicide, it's perfectly fine to say the word.
16:05
Speaker 2: It's also perfectly reasonable to talk about it, ask about it,
16:09
Speaker 2: learn about it. But we need to be really clear
16:12
Speaker 2: that it has to come off the table as an
16:14
Speaker 2: option when life gets hard. It has to come off
16:17
Speaker 2: the table as something that we would ever contemplate when
16:21
Speaker 2: we don't know how to resolve the problems that we're facing.
16:24
Speaker 2: It can't be an option. Now that sounds in some
16:28
Speaker 2: ways like a terribly harsh thing to say. It sounds
16:31
Speaker 2: like it's a confronting and provocative thing to say. But
16:34
Speaker 2: the more I've thought about it, and I've actually shared
16:36
Speaker 2: this with a couple of friends who are psychologists and
16:38
Speaker 2: asked them what they thought, and they agreed, absolutely, this
16:41
Speaker 2: is something that we want to take off the table.
16:43
Speaker 2: We do not want our kids, our teenager is running
16:45
Speaker 2: around thinking that it's an option because we don't need
16:48
Speaker 2: this heartache and every problem is solvable. There is a
16:52
Speaker 2: way through every challenge that we or our children might experience,
16:55
Speaker 2: and that's the message that we need to get through
16:57
Speaker 2: to them.
16:58
Speaker 1: It's not an option. Take it off the table.
17:00
Speaker 2: Because the tsunami of grief that it doesn't just ripple out,
17:04
Speaker 2: It sweeps across the family and friends and the communities
17:07
Speaker 2: that are affected is just insurmountable in so many ways,
17:12
Speaker 2: it is so extraordinarily large.
17:14
Speaker 3: I think the only other thing we haven't really talked
17:16
Speaker 3: about is just acknowledging that our kids are going to
17:18
Speaker 3: have different emotions around it.
17:21
Speaker 2: And in an hour, they're going to have different emotions,
17:25
Speaker 2: let alone across a week and a half.
17:27
Speaker 3: As sometimes it's not actually helpful to ask them how
17:31
Speaker 3: they're feeling, because just like there've been multiple times this
17:35
Speaker 3: week where I haven't really understood what I'm feeling, there's
17:38
Speaker 3: just so much emotion. Our kids are trying to work
17:44
Speaker 3: this out and understand it. So they just need to
17:46
Speaker 3: know that there's a safe place to have a cry,
17:48
Speaker 3: have a hug, and not have to explain themselves.
17:52
Speaker 2: The kids had a remote control war the other day,
17:54
Speaker 2: like literally a big war in the living room over
17:56
Speaker 2: who got to hold the remote control. They weren't even
17:58
Speaker 2: changing the channels, they weren't changing anything, they just want
18:01
Speaker 2: to They just fought over who was going to hold
18:03
Speaker 2: the remote. And I don't think that that misbehavior was
18:06
Speaker 2: really about the remote control. I think it was about
18:08
Speaker 2: the pent up emotion and the challenges and the difficulties
18:10
Speaker 2: they're associated with going through this grieving process, recognizing that
18:14
Speaker 2: emotion it's a contagious, Recognizing that sometimes kids don't want
18:19
Speaker 2: to talk, sometimes they don't know how they're feeling. Sometimes
18:21
Speaker 2: we don't, that there may be some misbehavior. Those things
18:24
Speaker 2: are all going to be important in navigating this very,
18:27
Speaker 2: very tricky and challenging time.
18:30
Speaker 3: And somehow, in spite of our own grief, we have
18:36
Speaker 3: to find a way to be soft, softer on ourselves
18:41
Speaker 3: and soft on our kids as they start to work
18:44
Speaker 3: through everything together.
18:47
Speaker 2: Tomorrow in our Older Better Tomorrow episode, it's going to
18:50
Speaker 2: be short, but we're going to talk specifically about that
18:53
Speaker 2: very thing and why it's so important, and what the
18:56
Speaker 2: last ten or twelve days have taught us as a
18:59
Speaker 2: family about kindness and love and goodness. I hope that
19:04
Speaker 2: you'll join us for a conversation that I think will
19:07
Speaker 2: make your family think about so much about what you
19:11
Speaker 2: do so differently. Thank you so much for joining us
19:14
Speaker 2: in a fairly somber conversation about a very difficult topic.
19:17
Speaker 2: We hope that it has been helpful, and we hope
19:20
Speaker 2: that it gives you some guidance as to how you
19:22
Speaker 2: can navigate these tricky moments in your own Homes and Families.
19:26
Speaker 2: As always, we appreciate so much the work of both
19:28
Speaker 2: Justin rale And our producer, and Craig Bruce, our executive producer,
19:32
Speaker 2: for the work that they do on making the Happy
19:34
Speaker 2: Families podcast available to you. If you'd like more information
19:38
Speaker 2: about making your family happier, visit happyfamilies dot com dot
19:41
Speaker 2: a you and if anything that we've talked about today
19:43
Speaker 2: has created any challenges for you that you need to
19:47
Speaker 2: talk about, please talk to somebody. You can google all
19:50
Speaker 2: kinds of assistance lines, if you jump online, or just
19:55
Speaker 2: pick up the phone and ring somebody you love and trust.