Latest / ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture and Impact / From Frustration to Legacy: Ambition, Speaking for Pay & Making It Without Losing It with Jess Ekstrom

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From Frustration to Legacy: Ambition, Speaking for Pay & Making It Without Losing It with Jess Ekstrom · ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture and Impact

• 0:00
  Things in our life don't have finish lines, you know, building
• 0:03
  a business, creating a culture, raising kids like.
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  All the. Kind of really good things in
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  life don't have finish lines. And so instead of like training
• 0:13
  our brains to be like and complete, you know, where's my
• 0:17
  medal? It's like what if contribution
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  was the goal instead of completion?
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  That was Jess Ekstrom, and this is Roar.
• 0:32
  Hi everybody. This is Danielle Davies, the
• 0:33
  host of Roar. Today.
• 0:35
  I'm joined by Jess Ekstrom, social entrepreneur, best
• 0:38
  selling author and founder of both Headbands of Hope and the
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  Mic Drop Workshop. Jess is someone who turns
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  frustration into momentum, whether that's building a
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  company that's reached children's hospitals around the
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  world or creating a platform that helps women step onto
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  stages, publish, publish their ideas, and get paid for sharing
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  their stories. And that last piece really
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  matters because advocacy doesn't only happen in policy rooms.
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  Sometimes it happens when women claim space, redefine authority,
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  and decide their voice belongs in the spotlight.
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  Through Mic Drop Workshop, Jess is working to shift who gets
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  heard in an industry where women are still vastly
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  underrepresented as keynote speakers and thought leaders.
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  And with her upcoming book, Making It Without Losing It,
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  she's asking a deeper question. What does success look like when
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  ambition and peace are allowed to exist at the same time?
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  Jess, thanks so much for being here.
• 1:27
  Welcome to ROAR. Oh my gosh, what a great intro.
• 1:29
  Thank you, Danielle. I'm so excited to be here.
• 1:32
  Stop at the intros and just be like, there they are.
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  Like, yeah, you know, No, no, you're.
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  Fantastic. Thank you.
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  I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited and I'm going to
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  jump right in because I know we've got limited time, even
• 1:45
  though an hour shouldn't really be limited.
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  But you use the term inspiration from frustration.
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  What was the first frustration that really changed your
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  trajectory? The moment you realize you're
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  not just solving something for you, you're building something
• 1:56
  that could help other women or girls too.
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  You know, I would say from a young age, I remember even just
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  like this camping trip that I took with my dad when I was a
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  kid and I'm really aging myself when I say I brought my Walkman,
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  like, you know, totally, totally.
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  And I was, I remember I was listening to the Backstreet
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  Boys. Still a Backstreet fan?
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  And I can't believe they're still touring, by the way.
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  Right. And my headphone cords kept
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  getting tangled in this knot in my Walkman.
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  And I was getting so frustrated. And I said, and my dad had
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  recently started his company. I was in middle school.
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  And so I was kind of watching him build something that he
• 2:37
  believed in. And I was like, Dad, you know,
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  I'm going to invent something like you did.
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  I'm going to invent headphone cords that just roll up like a
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  slinky so they don't get tangled in a knot.
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  And I remember he was so serious, and he's a very goofy
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  guy. And he sat me down and he was
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  like, you know, that's already been invented.
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  But I really want you to keep thinking that way.
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  Like, that was a great job of being frustrated about something
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  and thinking, how could this be better?
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  And so I think that that was kind of this shift for me.
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  Not like I'm going to be an entrepreneur, but I believe in
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  myself enough to solve problems. So I think that that's why I'm
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  also so passionate about kids starting their ideas, whether
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  their only customer is their mom or their neighbor or being a
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  lemonade stand kid. It's like you learn so much from
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  just taking responsibility of like, oh, I don't like the way
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  that, you know, we take attendance at school.
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  What if it was this way and that?
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  Like muscle memory of instead of why me?
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  But how can I fix this? Started on that camping trip and
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  I think it's just kind of continued from there.
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  What great, like what excellent feedback from your dad because
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  so many, I hate to say, but I feel like so many parents, so
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  many people would just be like that's already invented and
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  stopped there without doing the next part, which is like how
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  clever of you. How entrepreneuristic of you,
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  how innovative of you to think this way and then to kind of
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  keep it going? Yeah.
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  And yeah, shout out to Dad if you're listening.
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  Right. And I have, you know, two kids
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  of my own now that, you know, they're one and three, you're
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  probably going to hear them on this podcast.
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  So they're both homesick from school.
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  So it is. Let's just hope we don't hear
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  any bodily fluids. It's just like Peppa Pig out
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  there. But I'm thinking a lot about
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  like how I was raised now that I, you know, have my own kids
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  and and like, you know, they my parents never forced like do
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  good do this, you know, start your business.
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  But they just like gently showed me like the exits I could take
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  on the highway, like, Oh yeah, if you want to start something,
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  here's go for it. Here's how you do it.
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  But it was never and and of. Course they like started their
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  own business and so I got to watch them but.
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  You know it's so. Hard, by the way, sorry.
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  So they were, yeah. They were in the health and
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  fitness industry. And they created, like, an
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  e-mail marketing thing where gyms send out emails based on
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  how often they came to the gym. And this was in the 90s.
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  So this was like a huge, huge yeah, like, very.
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  And they're both. I'm like, I laugh.
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  I'm like, they can't even like, open up a Word document, yet
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  they created this tech company. I'm like, how did you guys do
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  this? It just goes to show you don't
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  have to be an expert to, you know, be an entrepreneur.
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  But yeah, I'm thinking a lot about that with my kids of like
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  how I guide them instead of push them because I think that's what
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  they did for me. I love that.
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  And it's funny because now I'm going off on a tangent, but I do
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  my daughter 17 and my son's 20 and he's always known what he
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  wanted to do and that's been what he wants to do.
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  But my daughter's much more like creative and not that he's not,
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  he's just been goal driven from the beginning and she's like a
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  little more aimless and that's OK.
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  She's super creative. But in terms of like saying
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  these are the exit ramps, I'll say these are the exit ramps.
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  And she just jokes like she'll be like everything with you.
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  Like she could say I like this candied ginger, whatever it is,
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  I'll be like, you know, that could be abyss yes, and she now
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  it's like she's like, stop, stop saying I know everything can be.
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  So it's it's such a your dad must have done it in just the
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  right way where it wasn't pushing it, but just open the
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  door. Tell you Danielle, my sister and
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  I are the same as what you're how you're explaining your kids.
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  But we actually did have kind of a freaky Friday where I was kind
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  of aimless. She was very goal driven and
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  then. I don't know, we collided like
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  in college and we, I became very goal driven and she was just
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  like. The world is my oyster and I
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  literally was having this conversation this morning
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  because she lives in California. She's like a nature guide.
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  I mean she works for a Land Trust.
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  She is like one with the earth and she sends, we use this app
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  called Marco Polo where she sends videos.
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  I love it and so she'll send videos to my kids that they can
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  watch and she sends. These videos of like.
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  A plant in the oh, Ellie Jack, look at this flower.
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  What are you? What colors do you see?
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  And I'm like Heather, you could be Miss Rachel for outdoors.
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  Like you could have a YouTube channel that is like outdoor
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  kids stuff. We could monetize it, like could
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  be sponsored by REI, like here we go.
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  And she's like, Jess, I am just sending videos to my niece and
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  nephew. Like, I don't want to do this.
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  And even as an employer, you know, I'm right now, it's the
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  beginning of the year. I know this is going to come out
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  later, but I'm having calls with everyone on my team just kind of
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  trying to understand where they want to go from their role.
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  And some people are like, I just really like where I am.
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  I don't want to be the director. Like I don't want to do this.
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  You know, I'm really good where I'm at.
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  And so I think sometimes someone who is so addicted to ambition,
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  which is again a part of my book, it's hard for me to not be
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  like a pusher of ambition to other people.
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  And if anything, I feel like I can learn from my sister and
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  some of these other people who are like, I'm really enjoying
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  the spot right now. Why do?
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  Why would I want to mess with the good vibes, if you know what
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  I mean? Yes, yeah, it is a foreign
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  concepts to me as well just because you're like I don't
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  know, I've always juggled multiple things and you're
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  that's kind of what keeps me going.
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  I don't know what I would do if I resist not but that's also my
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  personality and not everybody else's.
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  So, but, but also what you do, by the way, like the fact that
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  both of the kind of the, the ways that you've chosen to be an
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  entrepreneur have actually been helping people.
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  So that's another part. So when I started war, part of
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  it was because, you know, I have been in, I've worked in politics
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  and I've worked in as a journalist.
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  And a lot of times when people are like, get involved, do
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  something they often think are like, well, I can't run for
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  office. Like I don't want to run for
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  office. And I know that's not what I
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  want to do, but advocacy for women and girls doesn't have to
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  look like running for office or holding up a sign.
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  And I think that your work shows it can be building platforms,
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  right in doors shifting, who gets heard.
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  Did you ever start seeing, you know, voice invisibility as a
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  form of advocacy? It is such a timely question
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  because I have been, you know, there's a lot going on in the
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  world right now and so much. And so, of course, you ask
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  yourself, 30 years from now, when we look back on this time
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  or 10 years or five years, what do I want to tell my kids that I
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  did? You know, and I think about that
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  question every day. And I will also tell you that
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  I'm not the kind of person who I saw this video recently that was
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  like, everyone protests differently.
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  Sometimes people protest through making art.
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  Sometimes people protest by where they shop, sometimes
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  people protest by like holding the signs and marching in the
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  streets. And sometimes the protests that
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  are so visible, like the holding the signs or maybe being, you
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  know, is feels like it's the only way because it's so
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  visible. And so I've been really kind of
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  battling. I'm like, I just, I'm not at,
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  you know, holding the signs right now, but I truly believe
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  that the businesses and the systems that I'm putting in
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  place are there for the betterment of women, which is my
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  form of advocacy. But I think I had to have a
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  little bit of a gut. Check with myself of like, am,
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  you know, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, am I feeling
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  like I, you know, left it all in the field for what I believe in.
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  And my answer right now is yes. But it's hard because there's so
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  many things that you feel like you could be doing or get swept
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  up in or. And I think that right now I'm
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  like, OK, I like how I've built my businesses around helping,
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  even if it's maybe a form of protest that looks different.
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  Does that resonate with you? 100% And I'm glad you see it for
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  yourself too, because as somebody who's been on the
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  receiving end of what you do and we'll talk about that later,
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  it's, I do see it as a form of advocacy myself.
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  So I don't think it's, I don't think it's going on deaf ears.
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  I mean, obviously you have to, you know, that's something you
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  have to look at yourself. And like you said, in 10 years,
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  20 years, am I going to look back and feel like I, I'm, I
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  guess met this moment? But I think you are.
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  And it's again, and I think it's really important that we all
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  start to see that it doesn't look the same for everybody.
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  And how we advocate doesn't doesn't look the same that
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  you're not not doing something, you're doing another thing.
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  And I think that's just important as important.
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  In fact, one of the things I wanted to talk about too is you,
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  you tell the story you at least did in one of your courses that
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  I took women report being the only woman on the panel or being
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  underpaid for their keynote work.
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  But you pulled back the curtain and you actually asked somebody
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  why you why they picked you, which I think is a really brave
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  question. I know I was young and naive.
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  Yeah, that was smart of you, but what surprised you most when you
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  started pulling back the curtain on this?
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  So it was a question I would ask when an event had already booked
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  me to speak. And I always kind of have like
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  a, in an onboarding call of OK time, date place, what's the
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  theme? And I always ask like, oh, is
• 13:11
  there something about me there? Was there something that you
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  read on my website or a topic or a story that you wanted to make
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  sure that I hit? And it was this one particular
• 13:21
  call and I just asked it. And, you know, some people were
• 13:24
  like, oh, we really like, you know, when you talk about hope
• 13:27
  or resilience And this guy said, I'm just going to be honest with
• 13:32
  you. And I was like, please, he goes,
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  I have no idea who you are. And I was like, I get it.
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  You know, I'm not famous. He goes, all I know is that we
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  needed a woman. And you were just like the first
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  one that that popped up. And that was when I was like,
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  oh, there is something happening here where there is this demand
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  for women speakers on this stage.
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  And it's really it's and it was so frustrating to me because,
• 14:02
  and it's still so frustrating to me, there are so many events
• 14:05
  that come to us. We're now kind of becoming the
• 14:07
  go to place for events to find women speakers.
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  So we train them and people can find them, but they're like,
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  well, we just can't find any. And I'm like, they're there.
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  They're we're all here. But maybe we're just not being
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  as forthcoming or as loud or which is also on us.
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  Like we need to put ourselves out there.
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  But it is so. Frustrating to me the amount of
• 14:31
  women that I see second guessing their place on a stage and the
• 14:36
  amount of men that I see that are just like of course I
• 14:39
  deserve to be here and of course I deserve to get paid $50,000 to
• 14:44
  do this. Quick pause, because if you're
• 14:46
  listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind
• 14:49
  of person I write for. I send out a Substack newsletter
• 14:52
  where I go a little deeper, more personal stories.
• 14:54
  Behind the scenes thoughts and. Honestly, some of the things we
• 14:57
  don't always say out loud here. If you want to stay connected
• 15:00
  between episodes, you can find it at Roar with
• 15:03
  danielledavies.substack.com. I'd love to have you there.
• 15:07
  And now back to your regularly scheduled podcast.
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  You're actually reminding me years ago, again, this is
• 15:14
  political, but I talked to Senator Tammy Duckworth and she
• 15:17
  maybe doesn't remember this, but we were talking about the fact
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  that like she knows men, you know, or she's come across men
• 15:23
  who basically, you know, they grow up and they look in the
• 15:25
  mirror and they're like, I think I'd be a really good
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  congressman, you know, like, like, you know, and then like,
• 15:30
  but like a lot of times, women, how they come to it.
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  And this is generalizing. Obviously this is not every man
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  and. Every of course.
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  But like a lot of times women, it's like you come to it because
• 15:40
  you're like frustrated that your kids are waiting outside by from
• 15:44
  the butt like for the bus. And so you're talking about the
• 15:48
  bus routes and, you know, like even Senator Patty Murray, she
• 15:52
  in Washington, that's how she started.
• 15:54
  She was basically like somebody actually said, you know, you're
• 15:56
  just a mom in tennis shoes. But it starts as just this
• 16:00
  moment where you're like, you're fixing something.
• 16:04
  You don't necessarily see yourself as the one compelling
• 16:07
  $50,000 on a stage, but you actually help women not just
• 16:11
  tell, but also sell their. Story.
• 16:13
  Yeah, so. What do you think shifts when a
• 16:15
  woman stops seeing her story as personal and start seeing it as
• 16:19
  like professional capital? He's like, yeah, that's the
• 16:21
  thing. I think we we all sit around and
• 16:23
  we talk and we have stories. But right, you see that.
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  What do you see happening to a woman when she starts to realize
• 16:29
  the stories might have? Monetary value, yeah.
• 16:33
  And I think that that's such a we're, you know, my sort of mic
• 16:38
  drop in like 2018 and like, I want to this year, we've hired a
• 16:42
  lot, you know, more team members, which is amazing.
• 16:44
  But I'm like, this isn't just me in my basement anymore.
• 16:47
  I really want to get clear on like our values and our what we
• 16:51
  stand for. And there's a lot of public
• 16:55
  speaking, storytelling, soft skills, which is great.
• 16:58
  But like, we are very clear on speaking for pay.
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  And because that's where I know that I've see that's changed my
• 17:08
  life a ton and something I didn't know existed and where I
• 17:11
  see the most gap. But it goes back to, I want to
• 17:15
  get to speaking for pay. But something that you said
• 17:17
  around like being able to see yourself there.
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  I mean, it just goes back to when we were a kid and like
• 17:23
  learning the presidents and looking at the wall.
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  And I remember like my kindergarten classroom had all
• 17:31
  the presidents faces. And so you just subconsciously
• 17:36
  start to assume, well, I don't look like that.
• 17:39
  So that can't be me. And so like with public speaking
• 17:43
  and anytime there's these like positions of power or the
• 17:46
  ability to hold a microphone, of course the pay you deserve to
• 17:50
  get paid. But it's also just this systemic
• 17:54
  ripple effect of being able to see people like them on stage.
• 17:58
  I was, we had our one of the programs we do is called Mic
• 18:02
  Drop Academy and we had our kickoff call last night where we
• 18:06
  do a cohort of thirty women and they're all women who are
• 18:09
  already speaking in some capacity and looking to make it
• 18:14
  maybe more their full time job. And this woman was like, I was
• 18:19
  told that I was, she spoke at this healthcare conference that
• 18:21
  they were, she was the first Asian woman that they've ever
• 18:24
  had speak. And it's just crazy that we're
• 18:28
  in 2026 and there's still like firsts.
• 18:31
  I spoke at a conference in December that said they've been
• 18:34
  doing this conference for 15 years and I was the first woman.
• 18:38
  Oh, and Danielle, I know I see your face right now.
• 18:40
  It happens all the time. Isn't that so all the?
• 18:45
  Time. As women, you know, you grow up
• 18:47
  and you're like, yeah, of course.
• 18:49
  I just assumed it was a given. Like, of course there would be a
• 18:51
  female president, of course, there.
• 18:52
  And now I'm like 51. I'm like, is there going to be a
• 18:55
  female president? Yes.
• 18:56
  In my lifetime? Am I going to get to see this?
• 18:58
  It's like it. It's just crazy that you're
• 19:02
  telling me this happened in December and you've been a
• 19:04
  professional for how long? And the I say funny with air
• 19:08
  quotes, anyone who's listening, the funny part is, is that they
• 19:11
  presented that information to me as such a source of pride.
• 19:14
  Like you're our first female speaker.
• 19:18
  I'm like, that is not a point of pride if you've been doing this
• 19:22
  conference for 15 years. So yeah, all of that to say,
• 19:29
  yes, the pay, which I'm happy to kind of get into what that looks
• 19:32
  like as a as a speaker. But I think more than anything,
• 19:37
  the representation of seeing a woman hold a microphone in front
• 19:42
  of a room full of people, whether that's three people or
• 19:45
  3000 deeply matters right now. And so I, I have a lot of guilt
• 19:51
  around leaving my house, you know, with A1 and a three-year
• 19:54
  old. But I really am trying to show
• 19:57
  my kids what I'm doing. And, you know, my kids are
• 20:00
  obsessed with Miss Rachel. And so I'm like, you know how
• 20:02
  Miss Rachel like teaches? You know, language like I'm
• 20:06
  going up there and teaching adults like how to, you know,
• 20:10
  care about the world and care about their job.
• 20:12
  And this is me teaching. And I spoke in Orlando a couple
• 20:16
  of months ago and brought my daughter to to watch me.
• 20:19
  And so I think that I want my kids to see me trying and even
• 20:27
  if I'm failing, which I do quite a bit, but that matters to me,
• 20:32
  that they see their mom like taking big swings.
• 20:37
  Well, because that's also, you know, that's, that's also
• 20:40
  advocacy, right? Like you want the world to be
• 20:42
  better. It's going to start in your
• 20:44
  house. You want the best for your own
• 20:46
  kids, obviously, and for them to learn.
• 20:48
  And, and I have to say as like somebody who felt that way and
• 20:51
  continues to feel that way. My kids are now 20 and 17 and
• 20:54
  like every, you know, sometimes you're my husband's like, do
• 20:57
  they listen to a thing what you say?
• 20:59
  Like, must they learn everything the hard way?
• 21:01
  But I'll hear them having conversations with their friends
• 21:04
  where it's like I can hear my words coming back out of their
• 21:07
  mouths almost verbatim like, and I'm like, they are getting it.
• 21:11
  They're getting it and it and it is important.
• 21:14
  You know, I think these things are important.
• 21:16
  But also like you said, seeing a woman from other women, seeing a
• 21:19
  woman speaker, it is empowering for us, but it also also shows
• 21:24
  that it's possible. Why do you think this economic
• 21:27
  empowerment is such a important part of amplifying women's
• 21:30
  voices? Because you're not just saying
• 21:32
  you can go get on a stage. You're actually saying you can
• 21:35
  get paid for it. And I'm just going to say right
• 21:37
  now what we already talked about.
• 21:38
  So people listening, I took this free course that Jess offers,
• 21:42
  which I highly recommend and it will be in the show notes and
• 21:45
  it's awesome. And somebody sent it to me in
• 21:47
  like every free course you've ever taken, you anticipate that
• 21:52
  there might be a little bit of value, but really it's going to
• 21:55
  be a sales for, right? It's a it's a lead magnet and
• 21:59
  that's great. I mean, they have their value,
• 22:00
  but no, no, it was not like that at all.
• 22:03
  It was like its own thing. It was the only thing, actually.
• 22:07
  I have taken other courses from Jess, but not from this.
• 22:11
  Just. I just took this.
• 22:13
  I did exactly what she said. It was like a hat.
• 22:15
  How long is it? Half an hour, 40.
• 22:17
  Yeah. Yeah, not long.
• 22:18
  I did exactly what she said. This is like within an hour.
• 22:21
  I applied to five speaking gigs, which I really was doing for
• 22:26
  practice. I wasn't even doing them because
• 22:29
  I, I didn't think it was going to work that fast and I was not
• 22:32
  really prepared. I should probably not be saying
• 22:34
  this out loud, but the point is, well, I mean, the people who
• 22:38
  booked me might not love it, but yeah, yeah, yeah, that's too
• 22:41
  late. Anyway, the contract is signed.
• 22:43
  That's. What the editing's for, yeah.
• 22:45
  Exactly. And, and basically I, I ended up
• 22:49
  like almost immediately with a peed speaking gig that's coming
• 22:52
  up. And of course, I'm equal parts
• 22:55
  excited and terrified, but that's how effective and also
• 22:59
  how much the need is. And that just shows.
• 23:04
  And, and it was like very tactical, very, very practical
• 23:07
  tactical. I made like my speaking sheet.
• 23:09
  I did everything that she showed that you showed in this video.
• 23:14
  I literally just listened to word for word.
• 23:16
  I saw, I followed the same hashtags you said.
• 23:18
  I mean, there was nothing that I did that was independent of what
• 23:22
  you suggested. There was no like, well, she
• 23:24
  said this, but I took it up and not there was no taking it up at
• 23:27
  lunch. I did exactly that.
• 23:29
  And the speaking gig that I bought, that I booked was not
• 23:32
  like for $100 or $200. It was a $2500 speaking gig in
• 23:37
  another state. I talked for one hour anyway.
• 23:41
  You're going to crush it. Yeah, yeah.
• 23:44
  And and. Let me also say, Danielle, that
• 23:47
  I appreciate the credit you're giving me, but there are so many
• 23:50
  people that take a training and then put it on their like mental
• 23:55
  bookshelf and never do anything about it.
• 23:58
  So the fact that you not only took it but applied it is like,
• 24:02
  kudos to you. And I'll tell you something
• 24:05
  funny. As you were talking, it reminded
• 24:07
  me of this, you know, I started obviously mic drop workshop
• 24:12
  because I was really tired of all male pale and stale lineups,
• 24:15
  as we like to say. And so I started doing these
• 24:20
  like free seminars. And then of course, we have a
• 24:23
  paid training. And I had hired this like
• 24:26
  consultant or something years ago just to see like what could
• 24:30
  we be doing to like get to the next level?
• 24:33
  And they told me, oh, you're delivering too much information,
• 24:38
  like on the upfront, like on the free side, you need to like,
• 24:43
  what's the word the kids say? Gatekeep, you know, and say, you
• 24:47
  know, that's in the paid thing. And I was like, no, that doesn't
• 24:52
  align with my mission. I want someone to be able to
• 24:55
  like be able to start this and land something that's accessible
• 25:04
  to everyone. Because I think that's also the
• 25:07
  problem we have with people holding microphones is that
• 25:09
  they're already in the positions of power that allow that that
• 25:13
  are they're already in the room and so.
• 25:15
  Like my goal is to help people who might not already have those
• 25:20
  invites get the invites. And if so, if it was totally
• 25:24
  inaccessible, then I wouldn't be fulfilling that.
• 25:27
  And but it was just so funny to me because that advice was like,
• 25:32
  you know, we kind of, I kind of deliver too much good stuff and
• 25:36
  too many kind of hacks for free. And I was like, I'd rather over
• 25:41
  deliver than not. And I think that that's kind of
• 25:45
  been one of the successes of Mic Drop Workshop and how we've been
• 25:49
  able to grow so much over the past few years is the trust I'm
• 25:54
  able to build on the front end. And I always tell people, like,
• 25:58
  whenever we get to the point that they can decide if they
• 26:00
  want to like come into a paid program or not, I'm like, you
• 26:03
  can do this with or without me, like.
• 26:06
  But if you. Want to get there like quicker
• 26:09
  with the community, with more resources and join us but don't?
• 26:12
  Let. This be like do I do this or do
• 26:14
  I not do it with or without me? It's just whichever path you
• 26:18
  want to take. And so when you were saying
• 26:21
  that, like, it just was making me think of that advice I got
• 26:23
  that one time that I was over delivering and I was like, I
• 26:26
  think I'm OK with that. I'm good with over delivering,
• 26:29
  yeah. And honestly, I mean, it's
• 26:31
  because then you've got that, then you've got word of mouth
• 26:34
  and there's really just nothing better.
• 26:35
  I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I've been like, like,
• 26:38
  I mean, I'm like sending it to people I know I'm like from Matt
• 26:40
  because OK, let me back up. I've spoken at different things
• 26:44
  for different reasons, whether politically or I was like class
• 26:47
  president when I was in high school.
• 26:48
  I mean, there's people who end up speaking about things and
• 26:52
  there's people who don't. So years ago, many, many years
• 26:55
  ago, I think I was in a mom 2 point O conference and one of
• 26:58
  the pull out sessions was about the fact that you can get paid
• 27:02
  to speak. And the people were really
• 27:03
  helpful and wonderful. In fact, one of them who isn't
• 27:07
  she? She's a teacher and she writes
• 27:09
  about teaching. And so sometimes she speaks
• 27:11
  about what she writes about. Obviously, this is how a lot of
• 27:14
  times speakers become speakers, right?
• 27:15
  They're talking about their area of expertise.
• 27:18
  And she was really helpful and 4th rate and she was like,
• 27:22
  listen, you can actually get paid for those people.
• 27:24
  Like the women in the room are all like, get out.
• 27:27
  Yeah, yeah. She's.
• 27:28
  That's how I. Felt yeah she was like she met a
• 27:31
  woman and and she's like I'm here speaking for free because
• 27:35
  this is the kind of event that is perfect like yeah it really
• 27:41
  aligned with her it was local for her it was meaningful Fine.
• 27:45
  That's fine. That's its own issue, whether or
• 27:47
  not you want to do that or not. But she said that she knew
• 27:50
  another author that was like sitting down a booth from her at
• 27:53
  at like an author's convention. And that author was like, and
• 27:56
  she's like, I never heard of her.
• 27:57
  It was like a self published book.
• 27:59
  It, you know, this is back in the times when self published
• 28:02
  books weren't maybe what they are now.
• 28:04
  And she said the woman was like, I don't speak anywhere for less
• 28:07
  than $10,000. And this woman was like, like.
• 28:12
  Yeah. But that woman, she's like, she
• 28:14
  was totally booked like. It, it is the $10,000 one.
• 28:18
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was booked.
• 28:19
  And, and so that was very eye opening hearing that, but there
• 28:24
  was no, and of course there was no one there who was doing what
• 28:28
  you're doing right. There was no guy.
• 28:30
  So I knew it was possible, but I had absolutely no idea how to
• 28:34
  make that a thing. You know what I mean?
• 28:36
  Like I didn't know what the steps were from my knowledge to
• 28:40
  making it happen. But I had talked about it with
• 28:43
  different friends of mine over the years who are very either
• 28:46
  dynamic or have a great story to tell.
• 28:48
  And I'm like, you should, you should be a speaker.
• 28:50
  And you know, they're like what? I'm like, I don't know.
• 28:52
  But apparently people have this. I'm like, I don't.
• 28:55
  Apparently people do this, yes. And So what was it for you,
• 28:58
  Danielle, like after you took the training?
• 29:03
  Like what was the light bulb? For you was it?
• 29:06
  Topic was it oh this is accessible to me and what were
• 29:10
  some of the steps you. Talked about it was.
• 29:11
  The accessibility and it was the fact that so for me who had
• 29:15
  thought about it in the past and and I already kind of was like
• 29:19
  I, I could do this, I mean with medication.
• 29:23
  Yes, I want to talk about that too.
• 29:25
  I'm kind of fascinated by beta. So I'm an anxious person and the
• 29:30
  thought of it is making me, yeah, high inside.
• 29:34
  I. Mean my Lexapro is on OverDrive
• 29:36
  right now. So yeah.
• 29:38
  OK, so, so I'm, I'm definitely anxious about it, but the the
• 29:41
  practical steps for this is what you do.
• 29:44
  This is what you look for, this is who you approach.
• 29:48
  Yeah, that the the I mean, and you actually tell people this
• 29:53
  for free, which makes which is why I was saying now I've told
• 29:56
  every single one of those people I've like revisited and I'm
• 29:58
  like, this is the woman who will tell you her to go take the
• 30:02
  class. Like I'm like you, but because
• 30:05
  you're because you built the trust.
• 30:08
  So I you know, I know from I know it works because I did it
• 30:11
  myself. Like I did exactly what you said
• 30:14
  and it worked. And about the medication I did.
• 30:18
  Tell me where? Where?
• 30:19
  Like when you get nervous, where, what's the thought
• 30:24
  process that's going through your head?
• 30:26
  Where are you nervous? I.
• 30:28
  Get nervous. And then I get, I get to the .0.
• 30:32
  Whoa. This is a whole.
• 30:33
  I mean, we should have a psychotherapist on here too.
• 30:37
  When I get anxious, I get anxious about the fact that I'm
• 30:41
  getting anxious. So I'll be like, it's happening,
• 30:44
  it's happening. It's.
• 30:45
  Coming over me, Yes, I know. You can feel your body starts to
• 30:48
  like warm up in these uncomfortable ways.
• 30:51
  And then I'm like, I'll, you know, I can see my hand the
• 30:54
  older I get, like I can see my fingers start to shake.
• 30:56
  Like I'll be like, oh, you know, and, and it's internal.
• 31:00
  So all I'm thinking about is the fact that I'm anxious and so I'm
• 31:05
  not going to be able to be my best.
• 31:06
  And then it just keeps building. So I did obviously, you know,
• 31:10
  everything's listening. As soon as I took this, I
• 31:14
  started seeing things that were popping up on different social
• 31:17
  media feeds. You can take beta blockers to be
• 31:19
  a speaker. So I spoke to my doctor about it
• 31:22
  and he was like, yes, he's like, or you could just practice And
• 31:25
  I'm like, I'll take the beta blocker.
• 31:27
  Yeah, who has time for that? Yeah, it's like I'll take the
• 31:30
  beta blocker. Even drugs, yeah.
• 31:33
  Because he's. Because he was like, well, it's
• 31:35
  not, you know, all the time. I'm like, I don't want to take
• 31:37
  it all. Do you think I'm speaking in my
• 31:38
  sleep? Like I just want to do this.
• 31:41
  I think anything that allows you to like just do it is great, but
• 31:46
  can I give you some tips? Please.
• 31:49
  OK, so a couple things like when I see people get nervous around
• 31:56
  speaking that and this is like. I'm getting nervous just as
• 32:00
  you're talking about it. It's starting to happen.
• 32:04
  This and actually, so I gave my Ted talk last year and it was
• 32:07
  such a good thing for me because I was so petrified.
• 32:11
  It was such a different kind of speaking environment than going
• 32:13
  up and giving a keynote, giving this like very heightened 8
• 32:17
  minute talk that's kind of more scripted.
• 32:20
  Oh, thank you. But it was, it really allowed me
• 32:23
  to get back into the shoes of like doing this for the first
• 32:26
  time. And so I could kind of go
• 32:27
  through the process of what to do when you're nervous.
• 32:32
  The first thing I'll tell you what the, for anyone listening,
• 32:35
  the Ted talk was about like this shift that you can take when
• 32:39
  you're feeling nervous. And I call it the difference
• 32:43
  between being a spotlight speaker and a lighthouse
• 32:45
  speaker. A spotlight speaker comes up on
• 32:49
  stage and is like, what is everyone thinking?
• 32:51
  How do I look? How do I sound?
• 32:52
  Can they see my pit stains? Like, you know, can they see my
• 32:56
  finger shaking? I want to be impressive.
• 32:59
  And it's giving all the control to the audience.
• 33:01
  And you're saying, what does everyone think of me?
• 33:04
  The spotlight is on you. But a lighthouse shifts the
• 33:07
  light from themselves to the audience.
• 33:09
  And so instead of saying, what does everyone think of me?
• 33:11
  It's what does everyone need of me?
• 33:13
  Like, where are they at? How can I help?
• 33:16
  And so it's just this, I literally imagine, and this
• 33:21
  sounds very like Hakuna Matata, but like when I'm backstage, I
• 33:24
  literally imagine the light like taking it off myself and putting
• 33:28
  it on the audience. And it's this visualization I
• 33:30
  do. It's like, what did they have
• 33:32
  for lunch? Today.
• 33:33
  What is their fear like? Do they have, you know, kids at
• 33:39
  home? Like what?
• 33:40
  And anytime I speak, that's why I always like to have the call
• 33:43
  before because I'm like, tell me what keeps your people up at
• 33:46
  night? Even if I'm not, I'm not a
• 33:49
  magician. I might not be able to solve it.
• 33:50
  At least I have context going into the room that these are
• 33:54
  humans. There may be worried about
• 33:56
  layoffs. Maybe they got a new CEO,
• 33:58
  whatever it might be. So that first shift is like just
• 34:02
  where. What are you making this mean?
• 34:04
  Are you making it mean something about yourself?
• 34:06
  If so, you're going to be petrified.
• 34:08
  Or is it about the audience? The second thing that I like to
• 34:13
  suggest if you get nervous is I call it your start button when
• 34:18
  you speak and it's that first line, that first story you're
• 34:22
  going to tell on stage. It is, it can be like if you're
• 34:31
  going out there. With a super.
• 34:33
  Vulnerable story I would be I don't know if you can like curse
• 34:39
  on this show, can we? OK, I would be like shitting my
• 34:42
  pants if I was about to go out there and say about like a time
• 34:46
  that, you know, my grandpa died or like something that was super
• 34:51
  vulnerable because you're literally just like going down
• 34:55
  the black diamond without any kind of emotional warm up for
• 34:58
  yourself, for the audience. And so instead I start with a
• 35:03
  story that is maybe funny, maybe relatable.
• 35:07
  I think a childhood story is always great.
• 35:10
  I talk about the time where. Ice cream.
• 35:12
  The ice cream, Yeah. For my Ted talk, I talked about
• 35:14
  the ice cream truck in my keynote.
• 35:17
  Now I talk about a time where I thought I was going to get, you
• 35:20
  know, M&M's on this Outward Bound trip, and I didn't.
• 35:23
  And it's like the start button is an ice.
• 35:26
  Breaker for the audience. It gets them relaxed, but truly
• 35:30
  it's an ice breaker for you. Because once you can deliver
• 35:36
  like your first 30 seconds, 2 minutes on stage, I guarantee
• 35:42
  it's going to, you're going to feel your shoulders come down,
• 35:44
  you're going to get a couple laughs or head nods from the
• 35:46
  audience and your whole being on stage is going to change.
• 35:51
  But if that first story super heightened, very vulnerable one
• 35:54
  that you're not super comfortable telling, it's just
• 35:56
  going to amplify those nerves. So I would start thinking about
• 35:59
  what's your start button? What's like that story that is
• 36:02
  an ice breaker for the audience and for you because it's going
• 36:05
  to make it. It's just like stretching before
• 36:08
  you go out there. It's just like getting out all
• 36:10
  your kinks. And there's a lot of physical
• 36:13
  stuff you could do too. Good.
• 36:15
  Oh good, good. So good.
• 36:17
  Because even as you're saying it, I'm calming down.
• 36:20
  Like, yeah, I should just bring you with me everywhere I go.
• 36:24
  I, I just, I'm like, yes. And even when you said, you know
• 36:28
  when you said the shift from the spotlight or yeah, from the
• 36:31
  spotlight to the lighthouse, right?
• 36:35
  Yeah. Right.
• 36:35
  That's when you say it. I'm like, OK, like theoretically
• 36:40
  I get it. But when you said like, what is
• 36:42
  keeping them up at night? What did they eat for lunch?
• 36:45
  Then you're like, oh, like it's really.
• 36:48
  These are humans. Yes.
• 36:50
  And yes, that works. This works.
• 36:53
  And and you? Also, when you think about the
• 36:56
  talks that you. Loved like I didn't what be like
• 36:59
  wow, that person was perfect or I didn't say wow, that person
• 37:03
  didn't use a filler word. I don't know who made the
• 37:06
  villain, but it's who cares? Use.
• 37:12
  It's usually wow, they were so real, they turned it back on
• 37:18
  something that I could apply. They told a story.
• 37:22
  And I think there's this like misconception with speaking that
• 37:25
  being relatable makes you unreliable.
• 37:27
  And I think that that is such a myth that we need to debunk.
• 37:31
  If anything, like we have this ChatGPT perfection now of like
• 37:35
  exactly what to say. And here's the research that it
• 37:38
  makes us need to be more human. Like that's our competitive edge
• 37:43
  as speakers is being relatable and the stories that we tell.
• 37:47
  So I would say like just almost like this is probably not the
• 37:52
  advice a speaking coach should say, but like lower the bar for
• 37:56
  yourself. Like you don't need to go out
• 37:59
  there and be a Mel Robbins or whoever.
• 38:02
  Don't compare your like chapter 1 to their chapter 20 and
• 38:09
  recognize that just like people need real relatable and
• 38:13
  applicable. And like, that's how you can be
• 38:14
  a great speaker, not by being perfect.
• 38:17
  OK, real quick, if you're listening and thinking more
• 38:20
  women should be hearing conversations like this, the
• 38:23
  best way to support the show is just to follow or subscribe
• 38:26
  wherever you are. It really does help it reach
• 38:28
  more people. Thanks so much.
• 38:29
  OK, back to the show. You are very good.
• 38:33
  You are very good and I really appreciate it.
• 38:36
  But I want to also point out to people who are listening who
• 38:39
  maybe don't know your whole thing, like the mic drop
• 38:41
  workshop is awesome and I am aspiring to do it and I think
• 38:45
  it's going to be great. And I love what you do, but
• 38:48
  that's not all you do. You also have written book.
• 38:52
  So a lot of times people who speak who you know, I'm talking
• 38:56
  to the audience here because you already know, there's a lot of
• 38:57
  times people who speak, speak on an area that they've already
• 38:59
  written about, right. So then maybe they're an
• 39:01
  educator. That was an example I used
• 39:03
  before and they speak about education or maybe they've run
• 39:05
  for office. So they talk about public office
• 39:09
  or the economy or whatever their area of expertise is.
• 39:12
  They go and speak yours. What you do is sort of, I feel
• 39:16
  like you almost train women to do the opposite.
• 39:17
  It's not necessarily their of expertise.
• 39:20
  It's it's being human as the area of expertise and then
• 39:23
  backtracking it. And that's kind of what you
• 39:25
  almost seem to do in your books. You're not in your books.
• 39:29
  They're not books about how to be a public speaker, right?
• 39:31
  It's not what you've got. So you've got a book.
• 39:33
  They probably should be. That would be a Better Business
• 39:35
  strategy. But I I get too bored.
• 39:37
  I'm like, yeah, I want to write about something that.
• 39:40
  Right, but I I love that about you though, and I because I feel
• 39:43
  like it's again offering something honest and so much
• 39:46
  more relatable. And your book, you've got a book
• 39:48
  coming out called Making it without Losing it, right, which
• 39:52
  is awesome. And it seems like it, of course,
• 39:54
  I haven't read it. It's not out yet, but it seems
• 39:56
  like it's a response to hustle culture.
• 39:58
  Was there a mean moment when you realize like success isn't
• 40:02
  sustainable the way it's kind of being sold to us?
• 40:05
  And I even just what you said, you know.
• 40:08
  When you compare yourself to your first talk versus like Mel
• 40:12
  Robbins 400, like that's what we do as humans and women.
• 40:17
  I'm sure men do it too. Like we look at the end goal and
• 40:20
  we're like, Oh my God, I could never get that.
• 40:23
  They didn't start there, right? So can you talk about what
• 40:27
  happened to inspire you to even start this book?
• 40:31
  I think, and this goes back to the beginning of our
• 40:33
  conversation, I felt like, you know, I started my first company
• 40:36
  when I was in college. I was like, I felt like I was
• 40:40
  just trying to fill a leaky. Bucket that like I just.
• 40:46
  Can dump more water in here and it's going to be full and one
• 40:49
  day I'm going to feel it and it's like it just wasn't
• 40:52
  happening and I get you know, into this in the book, but I
• 40:56
  there was a I'll just say it here, but my uncle's Bernie
• 41:01
  Madoff. And so we had like a very kind
• 41:04
  of traumatic, scandalous chapter of our lives.
• 41:10
  Yes. And.
• 41:12
  Really. Yes, and.
• 41:15
  And so when I talked about that freaky Friday with my sister, I
• 41:18
  feel that was like kind of the catalyst where I was like, I'm
• 41:20
  going to go after this, just make something of myself.
• 41:23
  And and so I felt like it activated this hustle that I
• 41:29
  didn't know how to gauge appropriately.
• 41:33
  And I'm like, I'm just going to do something so big and so great
• 41:38
  that it's going to cover up everything that ever bad
• 41:40
  happened. You know, in in my family.
• 41:43
  I'm very much, you know, paraphrasing, but.
• 41:47
  And also really super small goal right there.
• 41:49
  Yeah, like, of course, I'm just going to be able to retire my
• 41:51
  parents that lost all their money and I'm just going to, you
• 41:54
  know, do this all the at the age of, you know, 20, like no
• 41:57
  problems. And I.
• 42:01
  And so I think that I just realized one day that I was
• 42:06
  constantly trading like productivity for peace.
• 42:10
  Yet I was seeing people like, I don't know, like Serena Williams
• 42:14
  didn't need another Grand Slam yet.
• 42:16
  She just loved playing tennis. Or, you know, these people who
• 42:20
  are making it like Oprah was a billionaire before she started
• 42:24
  like OWN network. She didn't need to start another
• 42:27
  network. She was good.
• 42:28
  But it's just these people who truly loved building and
• 42:32
  creating. And so they were coming at their
• 42:34
  goals from a place of inspiration instead of anxiety.
• 42:38
  And that was really interesting to me.
• 42:40
  And so I started to kind of go on this like personal journey
• 42:44
  that I'm sharing this book of like, how can I continue to
• 42:48
  build and do things that I'm excited about without feeling
• 42:52
  like I'm behind, without feeling like I'm, you know, trading
• 42:57
  productivity for peace or usually when we have a goal, the
• 43:01
  feeling is I'm not there yet instead of, Oh, this is an
• 43:05
  exciting, you know, path. It's like I should be.
• 43:08
  I this person is. And so this whole journey of
• 43:11
  making it without losing it is like I'm not the kind of person
• 43:15
  that wants to just like go on a silent meditation retreat and
• 43:18
  just never do anything like again.
• 43:22
  I enjoy and I did, I tried that. I write about it in the book,
• 43:25
  but I like building things. I like being ambitious, but I
• 43:31
  want to feel sane and inspired at the same time.
• 43:36
  So that's what this book is about.
• 43:38
  It's not coming from a place of an expert.
• 43:40
  It's coming from a place of like.
• 43:41
  Here's what I discovered while I was doing this.
• 43:45
  Not to give anything away, but is it like for example, with the
• 43:48
  speaking, you just gave me actual like, again, tangible
• 43:53
  things I can do with the start button and like all that stuff?
• 43:57
  Is it? Do you offer those same kind of
• 44:00
  strategy tips? Yeah, At the end of each
• 44:02
  chapter, we have a section called Take it or leave it, and
• 44:05
  it's something to try, something to leave.
• 44:08
  And then I think there's like something to say.
• 44:11
  And it's just like, if you were going to take one thing away
• 44:13
  from this, like here's something to try leave and say.
• 44:18
  Because I also, I'm going to be totally honest and realize like
• 44:21
  I, my brain has been personally victimized by like TikTok
• 44:25
  scrolling Chachi BT. And so I'm like, if I'm not
• 44:28
  someone who is like sitting down with a candlelight, with a cup
• 44:32
  of tea, earmarking books, I need something that is quick, that
• 44:38
  gets me if I need to like skip a.
• 44:40
  Page What do I need to do here? So I wrote it with that kind of
• 44:43
  reader in mind, because I also know my readers are people who
• 44:46
  are probably high achieving, don't have a lot of.
• 44:49
  Time like tell me what I need to know.
• 44:51
  So I wrote it with that person in mind.
• 44:55
  Yeah. Oh, I love it.
• 44:56
  I I and what? Let me ask you a question.
• 44:59
  Having done all this work yourself and you and I love how
• 45:02
  you're like, I tried it. I tried the silent meditation
• 45:04
  every so often. I'm like, what I should do is go
• 45:07
  away for a weekend like a retreat.
• 45:09
  And I'm like, I will never do this but, and it does sound
• 45:13
  lovely, just can't I just. And let me tell you, Danielle,
• 45:18
  when I did it and one, I mean, it was, it was great, but it
• 45:21
  wasn't this like, oh, now all my problems are solved.
• 45:24
  I showed up, you know, I drove. It was in Asheville.
• 45:27
  And I just, I didn't really read the fine print, which I've
• 45:30
  learned is a flaw of mine. And I get there.
• 45:33
  And the theme of this retreat is death and dying.
• 45:38
  Oh no. And I had no idea.
• 45:41
  And I was like, do I turn around?
• 45:43
  Like there were people, Like it was silent, but there was a
• 45:47
  guide. And it was all around this idea
• 45:50
  of like, one day we're all going to die.
• 45:52
  And I was like, I am not ready for this.
• 45:55
  But it was more so than the silent side, the like talking
• 46:02
  about death. And especially when it pertains
• 46:04
  to ambition, I was like, oh. For me, ambition kind of shifted
• 46:09
  from a comparison proving myself culture to a legacy driven thing
• 46:18
  like once you know that like. The the clock is.
• 46:22
  Counting down whether you wanted to or not, you don't know like
• 46:25
  when that clock is going to go to 0.
• 46:28
  And it seems very morbid. And I realize on this retreat
• 46:31
  that we like definitely in like our American culture have like
• 46:37
  we don't talk about death and dying as much as we probably
• 46:40
  should. And I'm included in that.
• 46:43
  But I was like, oh, once I realized like that there is
• 46:45
  going to be one day where I look back on this, like what we were
• 46:49
  talking about in the activism and say, like, what did I do
• 46:53
  that's going to outlive me? Like that's where my ambition
• 46:56
  comes from now is outliving my goals instead of like box
• 47:01
  checking them. Like what are some things that
• 47:02
  I'm going to put into place in my lifetime that might matter
• 47:06
  after I'm gone? Is it going to be that There's
• 47:08
  going to be more women in like, speaking spots, more women
• 47:13
  published on shelves? Is it going to be what I did for
• 47:16
  my kids? So that silent retreat, like
• 47:20
  actually the death and dying part, was more transformative
• 47:24
  accidentally, even though I wanted to run away and hide,
• 47:27
  because it shifted this ambition from like a checklist to a
• 47:30
  legacy. I love that.
• 47:33
  And I, I was going to say, you know, as somebody, you've got
• 47:38
  your hands in a lot of different areas.
• 47:41
  And because in an even mic drop workshop like you, one of the
• 47:45
  things that you offer is like a book bundle.
• 47:47
  So you help people with their books.
• 47:48
  So it's not just the speaking, it's the, it's the whole.
• 47:52
  Danielle, I love it. You know, like our offerings.
• 47:54
  I'm like, we need to get you on payroll.
• 47:55
  This is great. Yeah, I'll.
• 47:58
  Be as a totally different thing. One time I used to have this car
• 48:01
  insurance in San Francisco. This is literally like 25 years
• 48:04
  ago and I got in a little accident and I had been had this
• 48:07
  other car insurance that was crappy and then I had this good
• 48:09
  car insurance and they like took care of it And I raved so much
• 48:12
  on the phone about them. I was like, you're like, you're
• 48:14
  the best. They were like, could we call
• 48:16
  you? And you say that all again for I
• 48:20
  was like, absolutely like when I like something.
• 48:22
  It's such really great quality. It's actually my resolution for
• 48:26
  this year is to do more acknowledgement.
• 48:28
  I was like writing about it on LinkedIn.
• 48:29
  I'm like, I know how good it feels when someone acknowledges
• 48:32
  you just like you did to me. And so I am like putting just
• 48:37
  more into acknowledgement. And so that's so.
• 48:39
  Awesome. Well, you know.
• 48:40
  What thank you for acknowledging that.
• 48:42
  That's kind of what I'm trying to do with roar.
• 48:44
  Like that's, you know, like I feel like in many ways that's
• 48:48
  what I'm leaving for other women.
• 48:51
  Like I, you know, I don't have a lot of money.
• 48:53
  I'm not donating. I don't have a lot of time.
• 48:55
  This, what I'm trying to do is uplift women by way of other
• 49:00
  women's stories and trying to shine a spotlight on what
• 49:03
  they're doing because you know, it takes everybody.
• 49:07
  It takes yes. All of us.
• 49:08
  And so, so thank you for what you're doing.
• 49:11
  And I know we've, we don't have a lot of time.
• 49:13
  So let me just ask you. Now I keep going on a tangent,
• 49:16
  but I could talk. To you all day.
• 49:17
  Yeah, I want to do it. I'm like, which one should I ask
• 49:21
  you? Because I only have one question
• 49:22
  left. OK, I'm going to just go with
• 49:24
  this one. Yeah, well, I, you know what,
• 49:28
  I'm making it up. Here we go because I want to
• 49:30
  know with as somebody who does have all these different things
• 49:33
  going on and we didn't even talk about the headbands, which is
• 49:37
  fine. The point is you've got a lot of
• 49:39
  things going on and you talk about how you want to leave a
• 49:42
  legacy and how this kind of shifted on the retreat.
• 49:45
  And then also you've got the book.
• 49:46
  So it's kind of making peace with the fact of like this
• 49:49
  ongoing ambition. How do you and if you even have
• 49:53
  an answer for this, how do you like stop yourself from sitting
• 49:57
  at say you sit on the couch, you're done for the day.
• 49:59
  You're like, you're sitting there with your husband or your
• 50:00
  kids or, you know, talking to your mom and you've done your
• 50:04
  stuff, you've gotten it done. But you're like, but I did all
• 50:06
  the stuff today for mic drop workshop, but I still have to do
• 50:10
  XYZ for the book. And also there's this like, how
• 50:13
  do you shift between your, between your goals, Yeah,
• 50:20
  without just passing out. Yeah, I, it's something I am
• 50:25
  deeply working on. I think my thought process is
• 50:31
  like to move away from like completion being the goal and
• 50:36
  contribution being the goal. So it's like, how did I
• 50:38
  contribute to these buckets? Instead of complete them.
• 50:41
  I am the kind of like inbox zero person or notifications zero
• 50:45
  person where I'm like, I recognize like what the dopamine
• 50:52
  hit it does to my brain when I see like you have 20 unread
• 50:54
  messages. I'm like, I need to do these
• 50:56
  right now versus my husband on his phone.
• 50:58
  It's like he has like 3000 unread emails.
• 51:00
  I'm like how what like our brains need to be studied.
• 51:04
  And so I have recognized I have this and again, this was like
• 51:09
  kind of a catalyst for the book because I so deeply felt like I
• 51:13
  was just digging my claws to get to the bottom of the pile,
• 51:17
  whether that was last load of laundry, you know, Oh, I got to
• 51:22
  get to the last e-mail. And then you hit refresh and it
• 51:25
  like comes back in again it And it was this constant.
• 51:30
  I like call it. I'm like, if I had a memoir, I'd
• 51:32
  call it like, hurry up and relax.
• 51:34
  I was like, it's like, it's like my life is like having road rage
• 51:37
  on the way to yoga. It's like it's so
• 51:39
  counterintuitive. I'm like so deeply hurrying to
• 51:43
  get to peace. And I'm like, what if it was
• 51:45
  just this like continuous contribution instead of and
• 51:49
  knowing that there is no done like most things in our life
• 51:54
  don't have finish lines, you know, building a business of
• 51:59
  creating a culture, raising kids like.
• 52:02
  All the. Kind of really good things in
• 52:04
  life don't have finish lines. And so instead of like training
• 52:07
  our brains to be like and complete, you know, where's my
• 52:11
  medal? It's like, what if contribution
• 52:14
  was the goal instead of completion?
• 52:16
  And so I still pass out. I'll tell you, Danielle, but
• 52:19
  that helps me a little bit. How long did it take you to get
• 52:23
  there? It's like again, probably a
• 52:27
  good. It's ongoing.
• 52:28
  It's ongoing. I'm just like, and I have days
• 52:30
  like yesterday was just kind of one of those days where I felt
• 52:32
  like nothing was going the way that I needed it to.
• 52:37
  I'm like, Oh my gosh, like that didn't work out.
• 52:39
  This didn't work out. And just knowing that it's like
• 52:43
  everything is going to ebb and flow.
• 52:45
  I'm going to have a shitty day one day.
• 52:46
  The next day is going to be better, but there is like no
• 52:50
  done. And so, but the longer I hoped
• 52:54
  for done like I sold, you know, my first company and thought
• 52:58
  that that was going to be this like blissful, you know,
• 53:03
  everyone kind of dreams of an acquisition or not everyone, but
• 53:06
  like, and it just wasn't. And so it was just this like,
• 53:10
  oh, and then I wake up again and now it's like, now what?
• 53:17
  And so I've just been learning this lesson time and time again
• 53:20
  that if I keep chasing done, I'm just going to keep getting
• 53:23
  disappointed. And so contribution is the goal
• 53:27
  over completion. I love this.
• 53:28
  Thank you. I think so many people need to
• 53:30
  hear it. And, you know, my daughter just
• 53:33
  turned 17 and she just got her drivers license.
• 53:36
  And as we're leading up to it, I'm thinking, Oh my God, it's
• 53:39
  coming. I'm going to be done driving her
• 53:41
  to school. I'm going to be done.
• 53:42
  I'm going to be done with all the I get so much time back,
• 53:45
  blah. And of course it's, it's done.
• 53:47
  She got her license and now I'm like, do you want, do you want
• 53:49
  to hang out with me? Exactly.
• 53:51
  Because these things that we want to be done aren't
• 53:54
  necessarily they're good things, like you said, you know, they're
• 53:58
  so it's that's thank you for this.
• 54:00
  I really appreciate all of your insights.
• 54:02
  Thank you for your honesty and your vulnerability in doing this
• 54:04
  because I think thank you for making it all very accessible to
• 54:10
  everyone and. And can I just say something,
• 54:12
  Danielle, in the spirit of acknowledgement, I've done a lot
• 54:15
  of podcasts in my day and you are one of the best.
• 54:19
  This interview has been so amazingly conversational, but
• 54:24
  productive. And it's such a gift to like,
• 54:27
  not feel like I'm in an interview.
• 54:29
  And so I don't know what your goals and dreams are with ROAR,
• 54:32
  but I hope you like full STEAM ahead because you are very
• 54:35
  gifted. At this.
• 54:37
  You are going to totally be texting you later.
• 54:40
  Yes. Thank you so much.
• 54:42
  And Jess has to go and thank you so much for your time.
• 54:45
  I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for being
• 54:47
  here. I loved this conversation with
• 54:51
  Jess Ekstrom, especially the way she reframed ambition not as
• 54:54
  something we have to outrun or prove, but something we can
• 54:57
  actually shape in a way that still allows for peace.
• 55:00
  That idea of moving from completion to contribution
• 55:03
  really clicked for me. Next week, we're stepping into a
• 55:07
  very different kind of contribution, one that's rooted
• 55:10
  in creativity, storytelling, and the unexpected ways we find
• 55:13
  purpose. We're talking about what happens
• 55:15
  when you follow something seemingly small and it turns
• 55:18
  into something much bigger than you imagined with Piowa creator
• 55:22
  Beth Howard. In the meantime, thanks for
• 55:24
  listening. Jess's book is officially out in
• 55:26
  the world today. Before you go grab a copy,
• 55:28
  please share this episode with a friend.
• 55:30
  That's how these conversations keep going.
• 55:32
  See you next week on Roar.