Latest / Journey to the Fringe / Possession is 9/10ths of the law

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Possession is 9/10ths of the law · Journey to the Fringe

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From the unexplained to the mundane, come join
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us on a Journey to the Fringe. Hello and welcome
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to Journey to the Fringe, where the spirit of
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the season is alive and well, but not in like
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a possessed sort of way, more like we like to
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exploit it for listens. So we are your exploiting
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podcast hosts Taylor and Chelsea. Here today.
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doing an episode on possessions in the criminal
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law system. I just really like the idea of somebody
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arguing in court that they were possessed, they
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didn't have capacity to commit a crime. It surprisingly
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happened more than you think. I just want to
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put it out into the universe. I know that I'm
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constantly saying, you know, I think I would
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be good at this job. You put out into the universe
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and just hope it comes back. I feel like the
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vibes I get from what this episode what is going
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to be so far. I could sit on a jury. No, maybe
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I would be the professional expert on it. I don't
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know. I'm just putting out all the vibes that
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I get and we'll see what we come back with. And
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I will in my life. And it changes depending on
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what jurisdiction you're into. We don't quite
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have a case that's really relevant in Canada.
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However, I did put a Canadian case in here. Just
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because I think it is. possession adjacent, but
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you can be the judge when we get to it. Adjacent.
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Okay, I will be the judge because I assume by
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completing this episode I'm gonna be certified.
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Basically an expert on the topic. At least in
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some capacity in law towards possession or something,
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right? That's what you were thinking for this
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episode, right? Yeah, sure. at least for me whenever
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doing a law episode i do feel the need to say
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this is not legal advice please go find a real
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lawyer get them to do some research and don't
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just have them listen to our episode if you are
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i was just gonna say facing some sort of murder
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charge and you were possessed at the time This
2:00
is terrible way to start your defense. We see
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here exhibit number one. This was an expert from
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a Halloween episode of Journey to the Brand.
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But only kind of. We had this discussion. It's
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not really a Halloween episode because it's only
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a Halloween episode for one day and then most
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of our listens come after day one. So it can't
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quite be a Halloween episode. It still counts.
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It still counts. That's insane. In criminal law,
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a successful defense often hinges on whether
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the defendant had mens rea, the mental intent
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to commit the crime, the guilty mind. When someone
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claims they are possessed, they are hell -stem
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from a mental disorder or involuntary state.
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Courts typically reject supernatural claims outright.
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But they may interpret them as signs of psychosis,
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dissociation, or delusional thinking. In this
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way, possession becomes a metaphor or symptom
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of an underlying psychiatric condition. The challenge
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is that possession lacks empirical grounding.
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Unlike schizophrenia or dissociative identity
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disorder, there's no clinical framework for diagnosing
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demonic influence. So when defendants claim possession,
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courts often pivot to evaluating their mental
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capacity. In essence, the legal system doesn't
3:30
really say possession took place, but it treats
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it as a red flag for deeper psychological dysfunction.
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like quantifying it as something just not like
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what the person lacked the guilty mind the actual
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intention to do the crime is basically what you're
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arguing Because when you have a murder, you have
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two things. You have the actual death of a person,
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the killing, the action, the actus reus, the
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guilty act. What you also need to get murder
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is the mens rea, the guilty mind. So that's the
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difference between manslaughter and murder. Manslaughter,
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you just need the actual killing. With murder,
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you need both a killing and an intent to kill.
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Yeah. And what they argue with... possession
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is I didn't have the intent to kill because I
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was possessed. Yeah, they're quantifying it as
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a mental illness. They wouldn't take like a religious
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stance on it that would consider it a possession.
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Yeah, and I think we actually kind of saw this
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exact same thing play out on the haunted house
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lawsuit that we looked at, where the courts make
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a lot of jokes about it actually being haunted,
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but more so focus on like the legal technicalities
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that they would want to do it under. I can't
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remember, oh gosh. Instead of actually making
4:40
a finding that the house is haunted, it was.
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yeah yeah okay so interesting what and why is
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that just because like law wouldn't like that's
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not the place you know that's not the place to
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argue out whether or not possession can be something
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that actually exists all we're looking for is
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whether or not the person actually had the capacity
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to commit the crime like mentally want to carry
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out the action okay Okay, fair enough. And if
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they can ground it on something an expert can
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talk about, then yeah, that's what you're gonna
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do. However, this does reveal a deeper tension
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between belief and psychiatric evaluation. Judges
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and juries may not accept that a demon pulled
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the trigger, but they do consider whether the
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defendant had the mental capacity to form intent.
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In this way, possession often serves as a dramatic
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mask for underlying psychological disorders,
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reframed through the lens of insanity and automatism.
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To see how this plays out in practice, let's
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turn to the cases themselves. where defendants
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gripped by what they believed were otherworldly
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forces, stood trial for crimes that shocked their
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communities. And we have actually covered one
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of these cases in a previous Halloween episode,
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strangely enough. Oh, Halloween has the best
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episodes. And this is the case of Michael Taylor,
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the Aweset murder case. I believe this is in
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the episode, Exercise is Good for the Soul. Yeah,
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that was a good episode. And this is just a summary
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of the case, because we go over it pretty in
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-depth there, but it's just a fun way to get
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the juices of possession flowing. Michael Taylor
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lived in Osset, West Yorkshire in England, and
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in 1974 the local vicar, Peter Vincent, called
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in experienced ministers in preparation to cast
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out demons residing in this man. the exorcism
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occurred the night of october 5th going into
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the 6th 1974 at saint thomas's church in gober
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the exorcist believed that they oh my god how
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many times has this happened to us look at the
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date oh a lot recently this has happened to us
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multiple times that is the day we're recording
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That's so creepy. They stated in an all -night
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ceremony invoked and cast out at least 40 demons
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including those of incest, bestiality, blasphemy,
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and lewdness. At the end they were exhausted
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and they allowed Taylor to go home, although
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they felt that there were at least three demons
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left. Insanity, murder, and violence were still
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left in him. I remember this one. And that's
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the end of that quote. I can't believe if you're
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gonna leave them with anything, I don't mean
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Blasphemy can stay in there and take a birder
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out Like I can imagine there's a good like 40
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of them you can probably switch down. I think
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you start with murder because i assume they're
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picking and choosing what what they're casting
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out you don't think they just put like a spiritual
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fishing hook inside his navel or something like
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that no i don't i don't imagine that's how it
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works but this is just based on vibes from what
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i can remember there's juice boxes involved but
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i can't remember how you gotta go back and listen
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to the episode yeah so taylor went home unsurprisingly
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with insanity murder and violence left within
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him brutally murdered his wife Christine. This
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is very graphic. He attacks her with his bare
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hands, tearing her eyes and tongue out and almost
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tearing her face off. Oh, I remember this. And
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then strangling their poodle. He was found by
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policemen naked in the street covered in blood.
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Jesus Christ, yep, that sounds like all three
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of those demons too, doesn't it? I bet those
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guys felt really awkward after they realized
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that maybe they should have started with those
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ones. yeah maybe but they're so hard they're
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the toughest ones and i'm surprised they even
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admitted to leaving those specific demons in
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him i almost wonder if they should have been
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held on trial for something i don't know what
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because they were like yeah we definitely left
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those in they i think they do have some responsibility
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to be honest with you They were taking a break,
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though. This isn't quite a possession case because
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he's acquitted on the grounds of insanity. He
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lacked the mental capacity. He was sent to Broadmoor
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Hospital for two years and then spent another
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two years in a secure ward in Bradford before
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being released. He's released? Yeah, oh yeah,
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after four years. Didn't recommit. Doesn't say
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there if he was ever rid of those last three
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demons. I really hope so, but no, it does not.
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Okay, just curious. Before they released him,
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you would... think they would have done their
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due diligence, because look what happened leaving
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them in. I don't know, just my two cents. I really
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hope they at least got somebody else to do it.
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The exorcists who were doing it the first time
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around just did not seem up to the task. Incompetent,
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at the least. Next up is the case of Arne Cheyenne
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Johnson. They call this the Devil Made Me Do
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It case in 1981 in Connecticut. Arne Cheyenne
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Johnson and Debbie Glatzel, they provide firsthand
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accounts of basically what happened to them in
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a Discovery Channel show called A Haunting and
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an episode called Where Demons Well. In this
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they say that their father was an eyewitness
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to demonic possession. Arn Cheyenne, Johnson,
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and Debbie Glatzel assert that paranormal activity
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began after they went to clean up a rental property
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they had just acquired. Who's David? Why does
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that say David right there? I don't know. David
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recalled an old man suddenly appeared pushing
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and terrifying him. Oh, David is Arn Cheyenne's
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spouse. The couple initially thought David was
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using the old man as an excuse to avoid cleaning,
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but David informed them that the old man had
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vowed to harm the Glatzels if they moved into
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the rental home. David's vision of the old man
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included the man appearing as a demonic beast
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who muttered Latin and threatened to steal his
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soul. Oh no. Although the family alleged hearing
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strange noises coming from the attic, no one
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but David ever witnessed the old man. And why
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the fuck didn't David say anything? Well, he
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kinda did. After David experienced night terrors,
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exhibited strange behavior and obtained explained
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scratches and bruises, the family called upon
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the services of a Catholic priest who attempted
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to bless the house. Nah, you gotta leave. The
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terrified family concluded that the house was
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evil and would no longer continue to rent it.
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David's visions worsened, occurring in the daytime
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as well. 12 days after the original incident,
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the family summoned the demonologist, Ed and
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Lorraine Warren, to assist. Oh, thank god. We
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have a whole episode on Ed and Lorraine Warren,
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you can go back and listen to that. It's a good
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episode. Lorraine witnessed a black mist materialize
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next to David and indi - of a malevolent presence.
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Debbie and her mother told the Warrens they had
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seen David being beaten and choked by invisible
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hands and the red marks had appeared on his neck
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afterwards. David had started to growl his speaking
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otherworldly voices and recite passages from
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the Bible or Paradise Lost. The Glatzels recounted
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how each night a family member would remain awake
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with David as he suffered through spasms and
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convulsions. After receiving a prognosis of multiple
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possessions from the Warrens, David was subjected
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to three lesser Lorraine asserts that David levitated,
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ceased breathing for time, and even demonstrated
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the supernatural ability of precognition, specifically
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in relation to the manslaughter Johnson would
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later commit. Spoiler alert for the end of the
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story here. In October of 1980, the Warrens contacted
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Brookfield police to warn them that the situation
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was becoming dangerous. According to the eyewitness
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testimony, Aaron Johnson coerced one of the demons
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reportedly within David to possess him while
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participating in David's exorcism. After this
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incident, Johnson returned to the rental property
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to examine an old well that supposedly housed
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the demon. Johnson said that this was his final
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encounter with the demon while completely lucid.
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After encountering the demon at the well and
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making eye contact with it, he became possessed.
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The Warrens claimed to have warned him not to
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do this. What, make eye contact with the demon?
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I don't know if they said don't go to the well
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or don't make eye contact with it, but anyhow
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they told him don't do something and he did.
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Okay. As David's condition worsened further,
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Debbie and Johnson, who had been living in her
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mother's home, decided it was time to move. Debbie
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was hired by Alan Bono, a new resident in Brooksfield,
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as a dog groomer. Debbie and Johnson began renting
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an apartment close to her place of employment.
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After moving in, Johnson started to exhibit odd
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behavior that was strikingly similar to David's,
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causing Debbie to fear that he had become possessed
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as well. According to Debbie, Johnson would fall
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into a trance -like state wherein he would growl
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and hallucinate, but later no memory of it. And
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on February 16th, 1981, Johnson called in sick
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to his job at Right Tree Service and joined Debbie
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at the kennel where she worked, along with his
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sister Wanda and Debbie's nine -year -old cousin
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Mary. Bono, the couple's landlord and Debbie's
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employer at the kennel, bought the group lunch
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at a local bar and proceeded to drink heavily.
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After lunch, the group returned to the kennel.
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Debbie then took the girls to get pizza, but
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insisted they return quickly anticipating trouble.
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When they returned, Bono, intoxicated at this
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point, became agitated. Everyone left the room
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at Debbie's urging, except Bono, who seized Mary
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and refused to let go. Johnson headed back to
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the apartment and ordered Bono to release Mary.
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Wander recounted the following events to the
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police. Mary ran for the car as Debbie attempted
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to mitigate the situation by standing between
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the two men. wanted to try in vain to pull Johnson
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away. Johnson, growling like an animal, then
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drew a five -inch pocket knife and stabbed Bono
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repeatedly. Bono died several hours later, according
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to Johnson's lawyer. Bono had suffered four or
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five tremendous wounds, mostly to his chest and
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one that stretched from his stomach to the base
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of his heart. Johnson was discovered two miles
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away from the site of the killing. Sergeant Gordon
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Fairchild of the Brookfield Police Department
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said he helped arrest Johnson on a charge of
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assault while Alan Bono was still being treated
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at the hospital. He said Johnson told him he
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did not mean to hurt anyone and was unable to
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remember anything. While putting him in the police
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cruiser, Johnson said, quote, I need help because
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I've got a drinking problem, end quote, Fairchild
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said. When Johnson was informed at police headquarters
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that Bono had died, Fairchild said the suspect
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became incoherent and then fell. asleep for 20
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to 25 minutes. When Johnson awoke, police detective
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Sergeant John Lucas advised him of his rights
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and charged Arne Johnson with murder. They just
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let him take a nap? Yeah, for 20 to 25 minutes.
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They're like, oh, he fell asleep. He's probably
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in a jail. Let's just wait until he wakes up
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to read of his rights. Let's not do it now. Look
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how cute he looks when he's sleeping. He just
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murdered somebody. I think I would let him sleep
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too. Do you think? Yeah. Okay. Okay, maybe it's
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just me. Interestingly enough, apparently, if
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this ever comes up in trivia, it's the first
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unlawful killing in the history of Brookfield,
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Connecticut. So if you're in like bar trivia
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in Brookfield, that might come up. Wow. Interesting.
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And I just feel like there are so many warning
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signs ahead of this where Ed and Lorraine Warren
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come in and they're just like, whatever they
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said, don't make eye contact with it or anything.
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Whatever you do, don't do it. I feel like if
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there's an old man that was like telling me to
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get out and all this stuff that I can't remember
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what he said now, I'd be like, I'm gonna probably
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just move out. Well, and they were renting too,
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like was the rent that low? or was it that hard
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to rent in Brookfield? That's true. You see it
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again and again in haunting things like that.
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People can't afford to like move when they're
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in a bad situation. It's not just hauntings,
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it's also bad landlords and stuff like that.
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Oh yeah, a bad relationship with physical abuse,
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yeah. And they can't afford because of financial
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means, but I feel like this one is not that bad
16:06
relationship or stuff isn't a bad sign to get
16:09
out, but the signs were all there to probably
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just like leave. Yeah. To be fair, this is looking
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at back on it in hindsight of knowing there's
16:20
a murder that took place. No, they were well
16:23
aware that he was seeing an entity that was reciting
16:26
Latin. I would be out of there. Yeah, but I mean,
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who amongst us has not had somebody just randomly
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start spouting Latin at them and thought, you
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know what, I'm not moving. That takes a lot of
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work. It's never okay. It's never, you always
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gotta move if there's any Latin being taught.
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Especially backwards. Especially. The day after
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the killing, Lorraine Warren informs Brookfield
16:49
police that Johnson was possessed when the crime
16:51
was committed. Just has to get her nose in there.
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Yep, as they do. A media blitz soon surrounded
16:57
the story fueled in part by the Warrens, and
16:59
I think the in part is a little misleading with
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that, whose agents promise that lectures, a book,
17:05
and a movie detailing the gruesome case were
17:08
in the works. Martina Mannella, Johnson's lawyer,
17:12
received calls from all over the world about
17:14
what was being called the Demon Murder Trial.
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Mannella traveled to England to meet with lawyers
17:19
who had been involved in two similar cases. We
17:21
know one which we just talked about. He planned
17:23
to bring an exorcism specialist from Europe and
17:26
threatened to subpoena the priests who oversaw
17:28
David Glatzel's exorcism if they did not cooperate
17:30
with the defense. The trial took place in Connecticut
17:33
Superior Court in Danbury, beginning on October
17:35
28, 1981. Manila attempted to submit a plea of
17:38
not guilty by virtue of possession, but the presiding
17:41
judge, Robert Callahan, promptly rejected this
17:43
defense. Callahan argued that no such defense
17:46
could ever exist in law due to the lack of evidence
17:49
and that it would be irrelevant and unscientific
17:52
to allow related testimony. That answers my question.
17:56
The defense chose to imply that Johnson acted
17:59
in self -defense. Because of this, the jury was
18:02
not legally allowed to consider demonic possession
18:04
as a viable explanation for the killing. The
18:06
jury deliberated for 15 hours over three days
18:09
before convicting Johnson on November 24th, 1981,
18:12
of first -degree manslaughter. On December 18th,
18:15
1981, he was sentenced to 10 to 20 years behind
18:17
bars, though he served only five years, or approximately
18:20
one month shorter of five years. On second thought,
18:23
I feel like I couldn't be on the jury on something
18:25
like this, because as soon as they even hinted
18:27
at possession, I don't know that I would ever
18:30
get it out of my head. And therefore, I would
18:33
fuck everything up. You would actually be pretty
18:35
terrible on a jury, just because a judge does
18:38
have to say, okay, don't think about this. Don't
18:40
consider this. You can not consider what - What?
18:42
Yeah, if something's stricken from the record.
18:44
That's all I would think of. Like an objection?
18:46
Yeah. You'll say, Kate, no, you can't consider
18:48
that. And then I know you would be like, I can't
18:51
think of anything but this. And then when you're
18:54
deliberating, I'd be like, has everyone ever
18:56
thought of whatever this thing is that was stricken
18:59
from the record? Are we considering that in this?
19:03
Yeah, I'm just saying this off the record. So
19:07
if I'm ever on a jury, then I have to start with,
19:10
I just have to be honest, I cannot... Don't tell
19:13
me what not to do. Yeah, I cannot mentally get
19:16
around something that you tell me not to think
19:19
of. And if there's even a small chance of possession,
19:23
I'm gonna side with possession. Okay? Okay. And
19:27
I'm sorry, we just need to look at the speed
19:29
of the 1980s court system. The murder happened
19:32
on February 16th, 1981, is convicted on November
19:37
24th, 1981, and sentenced on December 18th, 1981.
19:42
But this was their first one. Yeah, true. But
19:45
you think that maybe it took longer. I should
19:47
say first in that town, this court system, he
19:51
stood trial in sorry, where was it? Connecticut.
19:56
Yeah, thank you for that. It was somewhere else
19:58
in Connecticut that would have been able to handle
20:01
a murder trial. See, I was right. Okay, while
20:05
we're on the topic, this is not on the topic,
20:07
there's no Ed and Lorraine Warren of our time,
20:10
is there? Possession -wise, no. Spirituality
20:14
isn't as popular as it used to be in the haunting
20:17
and possession sort of way. That's true. It's
20:20
more so alien stuff, and I think bigger people
20:23
are in the UFO community than the spirituality
20:26
community these days. And this one is a movie,
20:29
right? Yes. It's actually been many movies. Really?
20:34
Oh yeah. And I find this defense lawyer seem
20:37
to do a terrible job. Do you agree with me, Chelsea,
20:41
in that they wouldn't let her use possession,
20:43
so she used self -defense? Instead of saying,
20:46
I don't know, lacked mental capacity, insanity,
20:50
something along the lines of that. No, that's
20:51
true. Even I know that. And I don't know much
20:55
about love. This lawyer seemed a little butthurt
20:57
that she couldn't go with something that would
20:59
be like groundbreaking. So she said, screw it,
21:01
I'm not gonna represent well at all now. Okay,
21:07
and what happened to him again? Sorry, he was
21:09
found guilty. He was found guilty, served just
21:11
under five years in jail. Yeah, because those
21:13
lawyers sucked. Five, under five years? Yeah.
21:17
Actually, in possession cases with murder, we're
21:20
averaging right around four and a half years,
21:23
which is kind of crazy. That is super crazy,
21:26
and especially because none of them can be, like,
21:29
ruled possessed. Like, they're still being found.
21:32
I'm almost wondering if it's taken into account
21:34
in sentencing or something. They can't, but you
21:37
also, you take into account all these factors.
21:39
Because this one said that it was self -defense.
21:42
And could the judge rule on that? I doubt it.
21:45
On convicting, you can't. But I'm wondering under
21:49
sentencing if that's a factor that they take
21:50
into account for how many years you should get.
21:52
Well, it seems like it is around four. Yeah.
21:56
Go one rate. After this all happens, Lorraine
21:59
Warren defends her work with the family, claiming
22:01
that the six priests who were involved in the
22:03
incident agreed at the time that the boy was
22:05
possessed and that the supernatural events she
22:07
described were real. Unfortunately, I don't think
22:10
she ever took the stand here, because I would
22:12
have loved to see her as an expert and get cross
22:14
-examined under oath. Because you know this woman
22:17
has lied so much in her life. Oh yeah. No independent
22:21
verification of this claim about the priest's
22:23
alleged views was provided. Glatzel's father,
22:26
Carl Glatzel Sr. denies telling the author that
22:28
his son was possessed, Johnson and Debbie now
22:30
married, wholeheartedly support the Warren's
22:33
account of demonic possession, and have stated
22:34
that the litigants were suing simply for the
22:37
money. Then this gets so like I'm sure Johnson's
22:41
doing pretty well from like everything that he's
22:44
been represented in a media. So starting in 1983,
22:47
he's still in jail at that point, like sort of
22:50
two years into his five -year sentence. Gerald
22:52
Brittle, with the assistance of Lorraine Warren,
22:55
published a book about the incident entitled
22:56
The Devil in Connecticut. Lorraine Warren states
22:59
that profits from the book were shared with the
23:01
family. However, sources confirm that $2 ,000
23:04
were paid to the family by the book publisher.
23:06
So not that much. And that comes up again and
23:10
again with them. Upon the book's re -publication
23:13
in 2006 by iUniverse, David Glatzel and his brother
23:16
Carl Glatzel Jr. sued the authors and book publishers
23:19
for violating their right to privacy, libel,
23:21
and intentional infliction of emotional distress.
23:24
Carl also claimed that the book alleged he committed
23:26
criminal and abusive acts against his family
23:28
and others. He said that the possession story
23:30
was a hoax concocted by Ed and Lorraine Warren
23:32
to exploit the family and his brother's mental
23:34
illness, and that the book represents him as
23:37
the villain because he did not believe in the
23:38
supernatural claims. He asserted that the Warren's
23:41
author, Brittle, author of The Devil in Connecticut,
23:43
says he wrote the book because, quote, the family
23:46
wanted the story told, end quote, that he possesses
23:48
videos of over 100 hours of his interviews with
23:51
the family and that they signed off on the book
23:52
as accurate before it went to print. According
23:55
to Carl Glatzel, publicity generated by the incident
23:57
forced him to drop out of school and lose friends
23:59
and business opportunities. In 2007, he began
24:02
writing a book, titled Alone Through the Valley,
24:04
about his version of the events surrounding his
24:06
brother. I don't know if that book ever got made.
24:09
The events inspire the premise of the 2021 film,
24:13
The Conjuring the Devil Made Me Do It, and an
24:15
earlier made -for -TV film is also based on the
24:18
case, The Demon Murder Case, which was produced
24:21
again in 1983 and starred Kevin Bacon. I have
24:25
never heard of this. What? Nope. Netflix produced
24:28
a documentary in 2023, The Devil on Trial, based
24:31
on this case. It includes interviews with Carl
24:33
Glatzel, whose comments suggest a naturalistic
24:36
alternative to demonic possession in the influence
24:39
of Salmonex. One thing that actually just made
24:41
me think, they must have had a pretty terrible
24:43
case for insanity if they dropped it right after
24:46
they said, no, you can't do possession, then
24:48
say, OK, self -defense. The case could not have
24:52
been good. This really fucks everything up. No
24:56
kidding, either that or they were just a really
24:58
terrible lawyer. Just like a fuckup, like just
25:01
barely passed the bar. Yeah, I don't know. It's
25:04
one or the other. Maybe both. Yeah. It's so weird.
25:09
One does not preclude the other. But yeah, that's
25:12
the conjuring case that is probably the most
25:14
famous of all of this. I think it's the most
25:16
made up of all of them, too. Really? Mostly because
25:19
of the Warrens. If you get the Warrens names
25:21
involving anything, I'm like, oh, they're lying.
25:23
They just wanted to make money off this. Oh,
25:24
sorry. Of all your cases? Yeah. Oh, okay. I thought
25:27
you just meant of... Actually, I don't know what
25:29
I was thinking. Of law in general. Now that I
25:31
think about it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know
25:33
what the fuck I was thinking there. The warrants
25:35
are just absolutely full of shit. My next case
25:39
although you definitely know this case But you
25:42
would not think of it as a possession case and
25:45
that is David Berkowitz the son of Sam killer
25:48
Maybe I would think of it as a possession case.
25:51
There was something with him. Oh, yeah, it's
25:54
very direct Although it's gonna be very short
25:57
because it's not that great of a possession case
25:59
But nonetheless super famous case and because
26:01
it does get brought up. I thought it's important
26:03
to kind of include it here Yeah, okay. I like
26:06
this one. We haven't really talked serial killers
26:08
on the podcast before but I did just watch the
26:11
document well maybe like a month like no month
26:14
two three months ago I did watch the documentary
26:17
on Netflix Okay, well, I'm gonna give everybody
26:20
a Coles Notes of this case just so that you can
26:23
kind of like, oh right, that famous serial killer.
26:26
Between July 1976 and July 1977, New York was
26:29
gripped by fear as a series of seemingly random
26:32
shootings left six people dead and seven wounded.
26:34
The killer targeted young couples, often while
26:37
they sat in parked cars late at night. The assailant
26:39
used a .44 caliber revolver and left behind cryptic
26:42
letters signed, Son of Sam. These letters taunted
26:45
police and the media, fueling a frenzy of speculation
26:47
and panic. The city was paralyzed with residents
26:49
altering their routines and police launching
26:51
one of the largest manhunts in New York history.
26:53
The breakthrough came when a parking ticket issued
26:56
near one of the crime scenes led investigators
26:58
to David Berkowitz, a 24 -year -old postal worker
27:01
from Yonkers. Upon searching his car and apartment,
27:04
police found the murder weapons, another incriminating
27:06
evidence, and Berkowitz was arrested on August
27:08
10th, 1977 and quickly confessed to the killings.
27:12
When he was arrested, He quickly confessed and
27:15
claimed that a demon named Harvey had possessed
27:19
his neighbor Sam Carr's dog and was sending him
27:22
messages to kill. Berkowitz said he was tormented
27:25
by voices and compelled to obey their commands,
27:28
describing himself as a soldier in a satanic
27:30
war. This narrative was reinforced by the cryptic
27:33
letters, he sent to police and media science
27:35
son of Sam, which reference occult themes, paranoia,
27:39
and a mysterious network of evil forces. The
27:41
possession claim wasn't just a personal delusion,
27:44
it became a public spectacle feeding into the
27:46
era's growing fear of satanic cults and ritualistic
27:49
crimes. However, The legal system didn't entertain
27:52
the possession defense at all. He was found completely
27:56
competent to stand trial and pleaded guilty to
27:58
all charges. Over time, He recanted on the demonic
28:02
story, admitting it was a hoax designed to mislead
28:04
investigators and amplify its notoriety. In later
28:07
interviews and writings, Berkowitz claimed he
28:09
fabricated the possession angle to mask deeper
28:12
psychological issues and to manipulate the media.
28:15
He eventually goes on to become a born -again
28:17
Christian while he's in prison, renouncing his
28:20
past and urging others not to glorify his crimes,
28:22
and even now goes by the Son of Hope. He's still
28:29
alive, too. He really loves that son of a...
28:33
Yeah. No idea why. You know what? I really don't
28:38
think that I finished the documentary because
28:40
I didn't know that last part. I knew the other
28:43
stuff. And about the dog, it was the dog that
28:45
was the weird part. The freaking dog, yeah. And
28:48
yeah, he's technically not possessed, but also
28:50
he said there were voices commanding him. So
28:52
he was kind of, if you take it literally in that
28:55
way, he also was, um... possessed, but also he
28:58
wasn't because he says he made the whole story
29:00
up. Interesting how that works. That was a pleasant
29:03
surprise. This one is really weird. I like this
29:07
story a lot, but viewer discretion advised on
29:09
this one. It's not as gory as the first one,
29:12
but it just it's kind of a little sad at the
29:15
end. Oh no, I hate sad at the end. It doesn't
29:18
involve a pet, does it? It does not. You're fine.
29:21
OK, OK, because that needs a different viewer
29:24
discretion advice. It does. So this is the story
29:27
of Sean Richard Sellers. Sellers and his best
29:30
friend Richard Howard had been discussing how
29:32
it would feel to kill someone. Sellers confesses
29:35
during this time to the September 8th, 1985 murder
29:38
of Robert Paul Bauer, a 32 year old Circle K
29:41
convenience store clerk who had refused to sell
29:43
beer to Howard. According to Howard, who was
29:46
present for but did not participate in the murder,
29:48
Sellers wanted to see what it feels like to kill
29:51
somebody. And sorry, I should say Sellers is
29:54
born in 69. This is all happening in 85, so he's
29:57
16 years old. Sellers said he decided to kill
30:01
his mother after a fight over his girlfriend
30:03
whom his mother didn't like. He'd served his
30:06
mother several cups of coffee, laid him with
30:08
rat poison, but this didn't work. On March 5th,
30:11
1986 Sellers shot and killed his mother and stepfather
30:14
Vonda and Lee Belafato with a .44 caliber revolver
30:19
while they were asleep in the bedroom of their
30:20
Oklahoma City home. Wearing only underwear to
30:23
limit blood splatter on himself, he first shot
30:25
his stepfather. The shot awoke his mother, whom
30:28
he shot in the face. Sellers tried to disguise
30:31
his guilt by arranging the crime scene to look
30:33
like an intruder had committed the killings.
30:35
Howard testified that after the murders Sellers
30:39
came to his house and said he killed his parents.
30:41
Howard was also initially charged with first
30:43
-degree murder, but the charges were dismissed
30:45
when he received a five -year suspension sentence
30:47
for being an accessory after the fact after agreeing
30:50
to testify against Sellers. So at his trial Sellers
30:53
said he was a practicing Satanist at the time
30:56
of the murder and claimed that demonic possession
30:58
by the demon Ezerate Oh for fuck sakes caused
31:02
him to murder his victims. In later documents
31:04
he claimed to have read the Satanic Bible by
31:06
Anton Levy hundreds of times between the age
31:09
of 15 and 16 when the crime were committed and
31:11
in a confession letter written from prison he
31:14
reflected on this period of his life quote I
31:16
got very involved in Satanism I truly thought
31:19
it was an honest way to live and the rituals
31:21
of it would enable me to control my life end
31:24
of quote his attorneys also argued Sellers was
31:27
addicted to the game Dungeons and Dragons although
31:29
Sellers would later write that the game had no
31:31
part in his crimes in that quote using my past
31:33
as a common example of the effects of the game
31:36
is either irrational or fanatical end quote sorry
31:39
what year was What is this? 85. This is the height
31:43
of the satanic pen. I almost feel like this is
31:46
the lawyers trying to push this angle to say
31:50
he can't be held accountable for it because there's
31:52
all this going on with children. The jury refused
31:56
to consider either claim and Sellers was found
31:58
guilty of multiple homicides and sentenced to
32:00
death in 1986. At the time, Oklahoma law did
32:04
not give juries the option of giving a life sentence
32:06
without the possibility of parole. That choice
32:08
became available the next year. One juror later
32:11
said that the jury feared that Sellers would
32:13
be paroled in 7 to 15 years and that this prison
32:16
term was not lengthy enough. This led the jury
32:18
to vote for a death sentence. However, other
32:20
jurors denied that this was part of their deliberation.
32:23
Now while in jail Sellers became a Christian.
32:26
His friends started a website on his behalf and
32:28
he campaigned for clemency based on his religious
32:31
conversion, age, and involvement in Satanism.
32:34
While on death row, Sellers made numerous appearances
32:36
in the mass media, appearing on Oprah Winfrey,
32:39
on a notorious segment of Geraldo about Satanism,
32:42
when he appeared in documentaries about Satanism
32:44
and serial killers on 48 Hours, MSNBC, and A
32:47
&E Network. Sellers married in prison in February
32:50
of 1995, but the marriage was annulled in 1997.
32:55
Sellers' step -siblings doubted that his conversion
32:57
to Christianity was a sincere one. Of this, many
32:59
surviving family members, only his step -grandfather
33:02
believed his conversion to be sincere. However,
33:04
the prison chaplain believed he had truly converted.
33:08
During his 1999 appeal to the 10th U .S. Circuit
33:11
of Court of Appeal, Sellers contended that he
33:13
had multiple personality disorders. The appellate
33:15
court ruled that there was uncontroverted evidence
33:18
of Sellers' religious conversion that he may
33:20
indeed suffer from multiple personality disorder.
33:22
The panel of judges concluded that while Sellers
33:24
might have been insane at the time of the crime,
33:27
the claim was made too late to be raised on appeal.
33:29
Human Rights Watch condemned this decision to
33:32
quote uphold the sentence on narrow procedural
33:34
grounds despite the acknowledged uncontested
33:37
clinical evidence that Sellers suffers from multiple
33:39
personality disorders and quote adding in its
33:42
letter to Governor Keating that quote no civilized
33:45
society can accept the execution of a who was
33:47
a child at the time he committed the crimes and
33:49
who was and remains afflicted with a mental disorder.
33:52
Such an execution offends the most basic principles
33:55
of international justice and morality. Psychiatric
33:58
experts scoffed at Sellers claims, arguing that
34:01
any true mental illness would have been diagnosed
34:03
soon after Sellers' arrest and not seven years
34:05
later. Prison officials also cast doubt on Sellers'
34:08
mental illness by saying they saw Sellers rehearsing
34:10
the evidence of mental illness and receiving
34:12
coaching from his attorney, which is very illegal
34:15
spying on a lawyer with a client. He did appeal
34:18
to the Supreme Court, but the court declined
34:20
this appeal. Sellers' imminent execution brought
34:23
documentation from a wide variety of sources,
34:26
including the European Union Archbishop Desmond
34:28
Tutu, the American Bar Association, and Bianca
34:31
Jaeger. Nearly all raised issues about his age
34:33
at the time of the crime, and many argued that
34:35
this religious work from prison outweighed the
34:38
state's need to execute him. However, he was
34:40
still executed by lethal injection on February
34:43
4, 1999 at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary in
34:46
McAllister, Oklahoma at 12 .17 a .m. For his
34:49
last meal, he had Chinese food, He began his
34:54
final statement by addressing his step siblings.
35:14
Don't hate all your lives. I love you all." In
35:17
the final minutes before the injection, Sellers
35:18
sang modern Christian music and then loudly said,
35:21
Here I come, Father, I'm coming home, and then
35:23
turned to the ward and said, Let's do it, Gary.
35:25
Let's get it on. Sellers finally saying his last
35:27
words set my spirit free that I may praise thee
35:30
set my spirit free that I may worship thee Sellers
35:32
step -siblings objected to the substance of this
35:35
final remarks that instead of apologizing or
35:37
mentioning their mother He only addressed the
35:39
fact they still feel the same. It's very presumptuous
35:42
that he would know how we would feel said his
35:44
stepsister I don't know just the when you get
35:47
to that point in like the death row where they're
35:50
actually getting to the death I don't know. I
35:52
find that really dark in a weird way. I don't
35:55
know how to quite explain it It is especially
35:58
given some of the stuff that they brought up
36:01
which I think is relevant I don't know Everyone
36:05
has their views on stuff like the death penalty
36:07
and stuff, right? Yeah, there's a whole other
36:10
political side of that, like Oklahoma, 16 year
36:12
old, completely disregard the mental health thing
36:14
and be like, well, not for us to say you couldn't
36:16
have had capacity at this point, so just gonna
36:19
have to kill you. Yeah. Yeah, we're too far into
36:21
it now, so I guess you gotta die. An eye for
36:25
an eye. We're gonna move on to the last case
36:27
here, which like I said, I'm curious whether
36:30
or not you can consider this in the same category
36:32
as a possession claim. Interesting you chose
36:35
to include it. Yes. It is a very famous Supreme
36:40
Court of Canada case that you have to read, not
36:43
all criminal law classes, but the criminal law
36:45
class I took in Canada. This came up in the early
36:48
morning of 1947, sorry, May 24th, 1987. We had
36:54
very different times. Same thing. Kenneth Parks.
36:58
the main character of the story. Gets in his
37:01
car, drives 20 kilometers from Pickering, Ontario
37:03
to the house of his in -laws in Scarborough,
37:06
Ontario. Enters the house with a key they had
37:09
previously given him and used a tire iron to
37:11
bludgeon his mother -in -law to death. He then
37:13
turns to his father -in -law, attempting unsuccessfully
37:16
to choke him to death. Covered with blood, Parks
37:18
gets back in his car, drives straight to a nearby
37:22
police station and confesses, turning himself
37:24
in and saying, quote, I think I have just killed
37:26
two people, end quote. At trial, Parks argues
37:29
that he was automatastic and not criminally liable.
37:33
In his defense, a doctor testifies as to his
37:35
mental state at the time of the murder. From
37:38
the doctor's evidence, it was determined that
37:40
the accused was sleepwalking. at the time of
37:43
the incident and he was suffering from a disorder
37:45
of sleep rather than neurological, psychiatric,
37:47
or other illnesses. What? Five neurological experts
37:51
also confirmed that he was sleepwalking during
37:54
the time of the incident. How are they confirming
37:56
this? Sorry, continue your story. Originally,
37:59
he gets acquitted and the issue ends up getting
38:02
all the way to the Supreme Court. What? And the
38:04
question is whether or not the condition of sleepwalking
38:06
can be classified as non -insane automatism or
38:10
should be classified as a disease of the mind
38:12
and warrant a verdict of not guilty for reason
38:15
of insanity. See now here's something that would
38:18
be interesting to sit on the jury of because
38:21
what evidence would they have for the doctors
38:23
to weigh that he was in fact sleepwalking? Yeah
38:26
I know but like so many experts that were fully
38:30
able to convince judges all the way to the Supreme
38:33
Court that he was not guilty. Okay, so they would
38:36
have been able to provide some sort of substanciation.
38:40
Must have been convincing enough to do that.
38:42
Now, I may have been able to be convinced if
38:45
it was maybe a part of his routine to have been
38:50
trying to murder people while he was sleepwalking.
38:53
that could that have been the evidence? In which
38:56
case, I would probably say, yeah, okay, like
38:59
I think you got something here. And this time
39:01
he succeeded. And I can't quite remember the
39:03
evidence behind this, but he had a pattern of
39:06
sleepwalking and doing fairly intricate things.
39:09
However, he had never actually like attacked
39:11
anyone before. and driven a car maybe he did
39:14
drive a car no i think he had driven a car before
39:17
what yeah and you know what from my sleepwalking
39:22
like maybe you could drive a car because you're
39:24
just like dreaming i don't feel like i would
39:27
drive a car good though because you're not using
39:31
your rational mind in which case i could see
39:34
maybe murder but he drove 20 kilometers Take
39:40
that out. Don't let me admit to it. Okay. 20
39:44
kilometers. Yeah. No, I don't believe it. Like
39:47
that's a good half hour drive in like a population
39:50
dense part of Canada. But you're on autopilot.
39:53
No, I don't believe it. I don't believe it because
39:56
I sleepwalk. Nothing for sleepwalking. You're
39:59
dreaming. You're in a dream. Like it's just your
40:02
body not shutting off during that. So it's not
40:05
rational. Like you don't do normal everyday things.
40:08
Like you don't get in the car and drive to work.
40:11
You don't get in the car and go and murder your
40:13
in -laws. Like that's not, I mean, I haven't
40:15
gotten in the car. I have gone outside in the
40:17
middle of winter though and like I wouldn't otherwise
40:20
Yeah, no, I wouldn't otherwise go outside in
40:24
the middle of winter in my pajamas It's not rational
40:28
thinking not that murdering someone is but Chelsea
40:30
this goes to the Supreme Court of Canada and
40:33
they uphold the acquittal They say that there's
40:35
evidence presented that no has reasonable doubt
40:38
about whether parks acted voluntarily Chief Justice
40:41
of the time Antonio LaMare held that the trial
40:44
judge was correct and his analysis of the evidence
40:46
and his decision not to characterize sleepwalking
40:49
as a mental disorder. And this was agreed to
40:51
by many of the judges who also added in the characterization
40:55
of the evidence, they agreed, but looked further
40:57
into the public policy of the defense. You know,
40:59
it's not worth getting into the nitpicky details.
41:01
We're not a legal podcast, so I can just kind
41:03
of end it there. But I am curious. I'm very curious.
41:06
I don't know. I intuitively felt this fell into
41:09
the criminal cases that kind of had a possession
41:12
defense. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I was talking
41:16
to a lawyer friend who got that at me and said
41:17
this is a categorically different thing and I'm
41:19
like, it's not really though. No, I don't think
41:22
it is. I think it's very adjacent. I would agree
41:25
with you there having not have any lawyer law.
41:29
I think it might be because we've talked about
41:31
old Hagues before and that could be a type of
41:34
possession of sleepwalking and murder people.
41:36
I would be intrigued to know the evidence here.
41:40
What kind of evidence they would have to say
41:43
That everybody seems to agree. Oh, yeah, there's
41:45
a good chance he actually didn't. This is definitely
41:48
sleepwalking and how you would prove that it
41:52
like it would have to be without a doubt, right?
41:55
But that's what was happening for him to know.
41:58
So he didn't end up going to jail and it's remember
42:00
you need to be found guilty beyond a reasonable
42:02
doubt. So the evidence was at least enough to
42:05
cast doubt. Oh, that you did not have capacity.
42:10
Okay, yeah, huh. So it's not like oh, yeah fully
42:14
a hundred percent. This is what happened It's
42:16
like yeah, the likelihood of it is more likely
42:19
see that's another thing that would get me on
42:21
a jury I feel like that without reason like the
42:24
reasonable doubt thing I feel like I would always
42:27
be second -guessing myself as well. So I feel
42:29
like I'd always like what yeah I don't know.
42:32
With what we talk about on this podcast, what's
42:34
reasonable seems different than the average person
42:36
at this point. It's true. And if I ever get called
42:39
a jury duty, I'm just going to tell them about
42:41
this episode. Look, it's hard to explain. Just
42:46
listen to this episode that's an hour long. You'll
42:48
get it. Just listen to the whole thing. Like
42:50
us, follow us, share it if you like it. The other
42:53
thing is I listen to true crime all the time.
42:56
I'll be listening to something. I'm like, they
42:58
fucking did it. And then the next second I'm
43:00
like, they didn't do it. And I just can't like
43:02
I would do the same thing if I sat on a jury,
43:05
right about like a case like this I'd be like,
43:08
I don't fucking know one second. I'd be like,
43:10
oh he totally was sleepwalking and the next second
43:13
I'd be like, there's no way he was sleepwalking
43:16
It's a tough thing listening to true crime Well
43:22
yeah Chelsea, those are the cases I could find
43:24
that are possession and possession adjacent defenses.
43:28
It turns out if you want it to work out, probably
43:31
go with the adjacent or your lawyer might be
43:34
at all upset and just like completely screw up
43:37
the case. It was the most successful of the night
43:41
and super Halloweeny too. And with that, I have
43:50
been Taylor, here with Chelsea. We are Journey
43:51
to the Fringe. Thank you all for listening. We'll
43:53
see you next week. Goodbye. Thank you for listening
43:57
to Journey to the Fringe. If you have liked what
43:59
you have listened to, please like, share, subscribe,
44:03
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44:21
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44:23
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44:25
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44:28
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44:32
For now, I'll see you in the next episode.