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Thomas More or Thomas Less? · Beheaded

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to season two, episode six.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Megan Moore and I'm Elizabeth Black.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: It is 2021.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome, you guys.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_03: Very excited to be here.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel that different.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's so different already.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can just feel it.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of my favorite memes I've seen so far is from that scene in the Devil Wars Prada where she holds up the two belts that look almost exactly the same.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like 2020, 2021.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: All of us are like, isn't it different?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: We're like, yeah, yeah, it's really different.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: We imagined like some big startover, push a button, all of the world changes.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's not how time works.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: No, but we can believe, you know.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think the the biggest thing is hope and belief.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: So if you believe things are different, good.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: It is different.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: Do you have any resolutions for this year?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, I don't.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: I usually like I'm a person who I constantly have like weird goals and things I want to do.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Very specific goals.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: And they're very specific.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know me.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and I told you guys this uh, you know, on our show.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: But like I have like my 50 marathon goal I want to reach, and I so I feel like it's a lot of pressure for New Year's because I'm always like, I'm doing like as much as I freaking can.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like I you know, like one of our resolutions was to do the podcast.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: We did that.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: We did that.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: My marathon was like, I'm doing that, like check, travel more, travel more, not check, not check, get out there, go to London, not check, not check.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like certain things you just feel so restricted this year that you're like, I can't really like plan an international trip.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: I can't, I don't even know if my marathons are happening.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like I just did an 11-mile run yesterday, and the whole time I was like, I don't even know if this means anything.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Dude for you, boo.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I am, and like I'm at, but I'm at an age where like I need to be careful with my body.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, you're so old and higher.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: Really old.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: No, so decrepit.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm only 32, but like I need to be careful.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I can't just go on 11 mile runs nilly nilly willy, willy-nilly, whatever.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: Old bear.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I gotta be careful.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: I gotta conserve my energy and I have to be intentional with it if I'm gonna run a marathon.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just been hard to plan.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't really have anything specific.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: I would just say like live in the moment more, I guess, because that's really all you you have.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: Hashtag YOLO.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: Hashtag YOLO.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: God, no, kill me before I save it.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just, you know, I'm just trying to like make it more immediate immediate, like what are my things that can make me happy now versus like big plans that I can't really fulfill.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: Because who knows what's gonna happen this year.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I have one goal this year.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Nighttime skincare routine.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: I have two goals this year.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you oh, that is one of your goals.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's she's been talking about this for years.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: One of my goals.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, when I turn 30, I'm gonna have a skincare routine.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna moisturize more.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna use lotion.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Good for you.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Moisturize my the heels of my feet more because you pointed out what ugly they were the other night.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: She was like, Did were you the one that told me my heels looked really disgusting?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: She was like, Were we in front of people?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, I think so.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: We were it was New Year's Eve.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: We were a little toasty.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: I just I don't remember.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: We don't normally drink, I don't know.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: Why we got so drunk that night.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: No, but I just wanted to point out, as your friend, that your heels and your feet in general could use some love.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: They're disgusting, that's fine.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: My other goal first is to moisturize.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, super important.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm thinking in realistic terms of 2021.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like control the controllables.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: As long as there's moisturizer in the world, I can use it.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: It'd be okay.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I want to read at least 25 books in 2021.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad you said 25, because you came at me with 50.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: She came at me with 50.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: And she was like, I'm gonna read 50 books in 2021.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, you realize that's like roughly one a week because there's only 52 weeks in the year.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: And she's like, Oh.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't do the math right away.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: And she goes, okay, like 30.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I told her, I was like, you know, since quarantine started, I've I started, I think, seven or did 17 books.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, so you should be 20 to 25.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a good goal.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: That means like you're actively reading, like you're reading every night before bed, but you're not like spending hours a day just like.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think she got that new Dr.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Seuss one waiting for me.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, hop on pop.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no, I mean, I feel like my goals are very like, like I said, realistic.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to make these huge, big, elaborate plans, not knowing what's gonna happen.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you laughing at me?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we'll see.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: What but I agree, I think you're right.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like, no big, again, like crazy plans that are gonna hang over your head if you don't achieve them this year.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: Just like be realistic, take it day by day.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like, we have no idea how the rest of this year is gonna turn out.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: It could be just like the other turquoise belt and devil wears products.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: This could just be the start of another terrible year.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um we'll see.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Don't I mean let's not put that in their heads.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think we should all focus on the good things.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like, listen to me, Slytherin, talking about Wow, you're being so positive of our thing.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I try my best.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: New year, new you.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, I don't want to be different.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: I just want to like try to think about things in a lighter way.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard for me.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you trying.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't know if it's genuine or not, but I appreciate it.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Doing my best here.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Lizzie.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Don't call me that ever.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Betty.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Gross.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh anyway.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, okay, I don't think we have any follow-ups.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think so.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing has happened.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: We have a follow-up from Joan of Arc that we forgot to talk about.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: That we didn't talk about last episode.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's very pressing.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: What?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about her jumping out of the 70-foot window.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, we didn't address that last night?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: No, we didn't wrote it down and we never did it.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: You're right.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: I feel really bad.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's a very important thing.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Gave me crap because I was comparing it to the drop.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: It ride.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if you go to Universal Studios in Hollywood.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've been to the one in Hollywood.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't been to the one in Orlando.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: But um, there's a big drop at the end of the Jurassic Park ride.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, that's gotta be about that size.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: Jurassic Park is 85 feet.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, so she jumped 70 and she survived.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: But that's like a pretty big drop.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: Significant drop.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's pretty significant.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: We look we looked up Splash Mountain, I think, too.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: That was only like 40 or 60.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: 50 or 50.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: It was not a lot smaller.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: So just to give you a general idea of her fall from the window, it was between a Splash Mountain and a Jurassic Park.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Somewhere in the middle of there.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: If you're trying to, I need to put things into perspective of what I'm used to.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's pretty high.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's pretty high, I would say.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: If I fell out like a three-foot-drop window, I'd probably injure something.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're so haggard and old and decrepit now with your 11 miles.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Shout out to my mother.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: When I was home for Christmas in Colorado this last time, I had to do 10 miles last weekend.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: And my mom had been running with me consistently, like on my shorter runs, like my four or my five milers.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then I was like, alright, I have to do 10 miles today, mom.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like, obviously, you can't come.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: And she's like, Well, let me try.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like, she's like, You can't come, mom.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: You can't come.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: You're 61 years old.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: And she's she was like, um, she's like, let me just try.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, I'm gonna go run a few with you.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I'll turn back if it's too much for me.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: Woman ran 10 with me.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: That is impressive.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like, no training, like, I've been training, like getting up to 10, and she just fully did it.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe I'm just I don't know, I guess that's not great of a human being, but I was like, I've been training for like five weeks.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, I'll just do it with you.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: But in all fairness, my mom is like a super freak weirdo runner, and she ran one marathon in her whole life, and it was a full like 45 minutes faster than my fastest marathon.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: She's incredible.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: She's what a woman.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: She's nuts, she's just crazy.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I can't compare myself to someone like that.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then there's my mother, who we actually just got off the phone with because I wanted to uh you'll know later.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Prefacing to who we're about to speak about today.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: He is a very strong Catholic, and we needed to get some perspective from her from a Catholic.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but Peggy's also Catholic, so we could have called her too, but instead we choose to call my mother, who starts off the conversation saying, I apologize, I'm two glasses of wine in.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we said, Mom, we need your your Catholicism perspective on this.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: And she goes, Well, I've been married to a Jew for 35 years, so let's give it a go.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, Okay, great.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_03: That was the best opening Denny conversation.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: She's like, Well, I've been married to a Jew for 35 years.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my father's Jewish, uh, my mother's Catholic.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Cool, I like that story.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we've got a tutor.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: We do, and it's not a female.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: No, we thought we'd actually have a male this time around, so yay! Yay for boys.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, today you can introduce him because I believe you are related to him, Miss Megan.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: This is a very this one like hits my heart a little bit.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: So our person of the day is Sir Thomas More.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: Our uh Lord Chancellor to King Henry VIII.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and as I've revealed in several episodes, it's confirmed on my mom's side, who's the Catholic, not the Jew.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Confirmed on my mom's side that we are directly related to Sir Thomas More.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's very so like I always heard this growing up, and my grandma told me about it.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, like as a kid, I didn't quite know who that was, but I started reading books about Elizabeth I.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: I was I think about 10 or 11.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: You were young when you were age.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: I got into it, yeah.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: I got into it really early, and that was kind of part of what triggered it.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Was I remember my grandma and my mom just being like, Well, you know, we're related to one of the people who you know Anne Boleyn was involved with, or not involved with, but you know, we'll get into it.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: I hope not involved with.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not in that not in that sense.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, and so my my name on my mom's side is more, but it's spelt differently.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: It is, yeah.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: So it is M-O-O-R-E.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Correct, which is my mother's yeah, mm-hmm.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I have kind of like absorbed my maiden name throughout this podcast because I'm very proud of it and I love it.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, it has changed spelling throughout the years, 500 years or whatever.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right, as names do.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: It was kind of cool though.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: I did go on Ancestry.com just trying to find proof or you know, you like you hear things from your family, and there was some documentation I read that my great-grandmother had a historian do like a professional family tree, and it did come up there.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: But then I did Ancestry.com and I did get it through some like yeah, some of like the documents, and I went back to like my great-great-great grandfather was like Isidore Moore, and then it went into Elizabeth Moore, right?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then it went into London, and then I found an article where it was just like if you are related to Isidore Moore, um, we're like 99% confident that this is a real relative of Sir Thomas More.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so it kind of was this whole thing of like Was Isidore in London too, or were they like in Virginia?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, yeah, it was it was like the it was like 1600s in the colonies.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's really so they came over pretty early.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's super exciting and like hardcore American over here.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's well, we're so like lucky that we live in an age where we can discover these things, like you know, through online portals and whatever, because it's so funny when you see like even the commercials where they're advertising like the ancestry.com or whatever, and they're like, Oh, I was raised my whole life to think we were Irish, and then we're we found out we're German or whatever.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: So it's funny because you are told at a certain age, like, oh yeah, you're mostly you know Spanish and Portuguese, you're mostly German and Irish, you're mostly this and that, and then you get older and you're like, actually, like, none of that's true.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like, who knows what ancestor started that saying, like, oh yeah, we're French, oh yeah, we're this, and then when you get older, you realize, like, oh, your whole background is like completely different.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: And like me, like I have so many different things, like in my background.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I actually was kind of mad because I got I did the 23 in me to see my background, and I was like 20% English-Irish, and I was so excited, and I was like, Oh, and it shows you the city in my face.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I wrote more English than me.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: I know, and I was like, guess what?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like, Megan, you know, because this is Megan's passion, and then um I got an update like literally right around Christmas.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: They're allowed to do that.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: Why are they allowed to do that?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: And they were like, Oh, we like have now had more genome added to our project, blah blah.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: We've had modified results for you.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: So my 20% fell to 15%, and I was like, what the hell?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a big like significant difference.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's pretty much where I am, too.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think you're a little bit like whatever.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, she doesn't want to say you don't want to beat my 49.7 Ashkenazi Jew, that's why.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm 1% Jewish, and that's still there.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: Still there.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, like I I was 1% Italian, that went away.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like, all these things were modified, and I was like, okay, so everything that I just told my whole family, like, guess what?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: I finally found out what I am, is now different.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's fine.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: Just I I wouldn't even backtrack, I would just be confident, stick with it.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna stick with my 20% British iron.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's a nice, rounded, even number.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's got my I need the bowl in backing.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just gonna keep going.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, we gotta ring it in.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, I go off so much.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: Tangents.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: We'll go ahead and begin with our sir of the day, only second sir of our entire season right now.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: Sir Thomas More.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: Sir Thomas More.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so if you don't know who Thomas More is, get educated.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, get a book, educate yourself.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, that's why you're here.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um we're gonna educate you.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: Just wait.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, like I've you know, seen obviously Thomas More in the show Showtime Tutors series.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I've known who he is, obviously, but it was nice reading about his kind of early upbringing and other things.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I found out a lot of things about him I didn't know.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: But overall, he was a lawyer, he was an author, a philosopher, and a statesman.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: I actually own his book, Utopia.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: Which was really funny because like I asked for this book, I think like two Christmases ago, and my mom bought her and I copies of Utopia, and we're thinking, oh, we're gonna read this big, profound, like Bible-esque book of like you know, we thought it was like thousand pages at least.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: This thing is 83 pages, and it's I'm holding it like you call it a book, it's a pamphlet.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's a pamphlet, it's tiny.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: So it's funny because when um I had it ordered and like delivered to me, I was like, what is this?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: It looks like a yeah, like think about two in the movie Ever After.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's what I was basing it on.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: But that must have been some big fonts.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well, big font, and I think it is originally in Latin, so maybe that made it larger or something.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, no, that's where I first saw it because like I think Ever After came out when I was like, I don't know, 10 or 11 years old.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I was always like, oh, what's that cool book that Drew Barrymore has in Ever After?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: Drew Barrymore.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: I want that.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: I want the Cinderella book, you know, and I'm thinking it's gonna be this again large book.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so me and my mom got them, and it's like this skimpy little like thing that you can literally looks like a magazine.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's like a short essay.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so um I finished like 10 pages of it today.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'll probably be done with it in tomorrow.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's very short.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I'll add it to my list with 25 books.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Give it to me afterwards.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, perfect.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: These are the kind of books you need to aim for.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: See, and then I can get 50 easy.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we'll see.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we'll keep you guys posted on her progress.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, um, so he was uh you know humanitarian statesman, wrote Utopia, um, and he was born in 1478 on February the 7th.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um he was born on Milk Street, London, if you're curious or if you know where that is.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and he was the second of six kids.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: If you're from Milk Street, shout out Milk Street, shout out Milk Street.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: We have a lot of people listening in the UK actually.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: We do, actually.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm just saying maybe they know that place.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: We apologize for everything in advance.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: We do our best as Americans.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: So sorry.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: As 13-generation Americans, we really do our best.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, all right, and then his father was Sir John Moore, his mother was Agnes.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and when he was young, he went to one of the best schools in London called St.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_03: Anthony's.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: And when he was around 12 years old, 12 to 14, he served the Archbishop of Canterbury because he was from a well-off family, and some of these, you know, nice families got their children kind of like apprenticeships, like they they wouldn't have any major responsibilities.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like he was a household page to this guy.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um that sounds like a big deal.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: It was, yeah.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: It was Archbishop John Morton.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and Morton was very impressed with him at an early age.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so he really thought highly of him, and in um this is actually kind of cool, but in Utopia that I was reading today, there's like a preface of Thomas More's life, and he said of Thomas More, um, he said that the child is um will prove to be a notable and rare man, which I think is a lot to say of a 12-year-old.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean, maybe people were more mature in this age than we were as well.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: My dog is five, and I've said similar things.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Penny's a prodigy.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: So we all think very highly of our children.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so uh so he he did that through um his 14th year, and then there were some conflicting dates.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: I saw different dates online and different dates um in the book, uh, The Preface of Utopia.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but after he was in, you know, regular school, he went to Oxford, and that's where he got classical education.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's so cool.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that really cool to think that?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oxford has been around that while you can go today and get the same degree that he got in 1492.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: That is amazing.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it it's it's really intense to think about how some like old some of these institutions are.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: Oh I don't know how old is Harvard.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: Raise my hand.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh new 2021 goal get another degree at Oxford.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you're gonna go to Oxford and see.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they have online courses.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we'll check that out.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe they have like what are those free Coursera classes or whatever they're called?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Megan and I did take a fashion royal history of fashion.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: We should talk about that, didn't we?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: We did, yeah.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I don't remember.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: I like that.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I like that you say that.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm pretty sure that was an Oxford.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like 10 people did a class in Oxford.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: It was still a night, it was still a I can't remember the school now.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: How bad is that?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: Cambridge.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: No, let's relax on our credentials.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but anyway, maybe they have some sort of free program online.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we'll look into it.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we'll take Latin.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: But that's that is exciting.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: I how old is Harvard?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's the oldest university in America.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: 1600s.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: No, it's not the oldest.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: William and Mary is actually the oldest, I think.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: I know for sure Harvard is somewhere in the 1600s.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's still cool.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because I went there and I got a t-shirt.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: You went to Harvard and got a t-shirt?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't learn there.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: I walked the campus and got Did you get one of those dumb t-shirts that's like law school or say something?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_02: The t-shirt says Harvard University, and then per parentheses underneath it said just kidding.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you got one of those?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I like those.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: I approve of those.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's like in really small print underneath.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know when you see someone just like in the wild and they have like a Harvard shirt on?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: Oh smart.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: No, you didn't go there.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I just judge by their face.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: I can tell.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, you went there or you didn't go there.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: Just kidding.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: And when I see the just kidding, I'm like, oh, you're just a funny person.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: I like you.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you're not educated.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: You're just funny.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: I also feel that way about like when I see people wear like USC stuff.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like, not that USC's Harvard, but like when I see people that I'm like, oh my gosh, like you went to USC, and they're like, no.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, why are you wearing that shirt?
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: I get so mad at people.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: There was a girl at work I did that to.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh my god, I didn't know you went to SC as well.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: And she was like, I didn't.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, then fucking take that off.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um so if you want to take one step off of your high horse, I'm not on a high horse.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's not Harvard.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: I know that.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: Whatever.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just saying, I'm very proud of my school and I like at least like again, wear something that says USD football, meaning you're just a footballer.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: And then a just kidding underneath.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: Or something.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or just kidding.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: Or I don't know.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: Sound good.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: Don't make it look like an official like collegiate shirt that you got from the Cal State Long Beach.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, Cal State Long Beach as well.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: You should be mad if someone wears that and didn't go there.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Take pride in your school.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Be honored.
• 19:35
  unknown: Okay.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, continue.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: So he went to Oxford, 1492.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, and so his uh degree, or actually, I don't even know if he got an official degree, but he studied Greek and Latin while he was there.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: When in this age, I feel like I never read about people actually getting degrees.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like it's like they were studied here.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: All I read is they were they studied, so I don't have official documentation on that.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: But afterwards, um he left to study law in London at Lincoln's Inn.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: So his dad kind of encouraged him, like, hey, like it's now time for you to go be a lawyer, like, do your duties, like, you know, go into London and get your not law degree, because again, I don't know if they had official degrees there, but go study law, go become a lawyer.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_03: So throughout all this, he is kind of questioning himself because he was such a spiritual person that he at this time was kind of contemplating, like, I'd rather be a monk.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like he looked at some of the monasteries that you know that were around town and thought, I want that lifestyle.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I want to just focus on peace and philosophy and like he was a hardcore Catholic.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: He was very Catholic.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's actually an understatement.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he uh says that he actually was doing what he could to subdue the flesh, meaning like make whatever vanity or you know outwardly appearance like minimal.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: So he he went so far as to sleep on a log.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like he didn't want any kind of luxury or frills in his life.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: He used a log as a pillow.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and he also would frequently whip himself.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: I read that he whipped himself every Friday.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh awesome Friday.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: It was just a way of like, you know, penance of just like being like, uh, you know, I'm mortal and I want to feel mortality and I want to feel Did you not imagine from Da Vinci Code?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, DaVinci Code and the albino guy sitting there flogging himself with the spiky, or what was it called?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: The there's a specific name for it, nine-tail whip or something like that.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, something like that.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's the first thing I pictured.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad you brought that up.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Albino.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: So he was very devout.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so he considered this monk, you know, lifestyle, but he did decide that he would serve more purpose as a lawyer.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: And then in 1505 he married Jane Colt.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: Which, fun fact, I read um again in the preface of Utopia that it said he actually preferred her younger sister, like the second sister in line.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: But that's how kind of noble he was, and like I guess virtuous, because he was like, it's not fair to marry the second sister when the eldest is not married.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: So he wanted to like do more of a dutiful thing and say, I'm gonna marry the eldest because that's how it's supposed to be.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: So he's gonna not love her as much.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: And like, I don't know, maybe that's a good thing, but also I'd be like, follow your heart and being Well, I wouldn't want to be his second choice, even if I am the eldest.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's kind of disrespectful to the other.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like in every argument you'd just be like, Wouldn't you rather be with my sister?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I would just throw that in his face every second I got.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, she died shortly after, so maybe she was pissed the whole time.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: Ooh.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she she had four kids, um, and then she died in 1511.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: So just six years after they were married, um, she passed away.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then to rub it even more in her face, 30 days later he married Alice Middleton.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: So 30 days is not a lot of time.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: And there was even like a specific doctrine on marriage and what was acceptable and not acceptable at the time, and he kind of defied that.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that makes you think that in the last days of her life there had to have been some overlap.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: You think so?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's not so life.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: You went from whipping yourself and being a monk to all of a sudden being like, mmm, actually, I kinda like this chick, and I like this chick more, and this one died, and now I'm gonna marry this one.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: Just a lot going on, I think, in his life.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so but she already had two girls, Alice did, um, so they didn't have any children together or anything like that.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: And he was a very affectionate father.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: He wrote them often.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and he one thing I thought was really nice about the way he uh fathered the children is he educated the women, the daughters, just as well as the boys.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: So there was no distinction in his mind.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, women should be equally as educated, they should, you know, know the classics, they should learn Greek and Latin.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: So that was um, I think very nice of him that he wanted everyone to be very equal.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: See, things like that I'm really proud of him for.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, see, my family's like see hardcore feminism back in the 1550s.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: 500 years ago.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're interested, uh Holbein, Hans Holbein has a picture of it.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Hans of Holbein, yeah!
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: They have a really nice picture.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: We can't say Holbein without singing the song.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: For those who've heard or seen the musical sticks, which I know a lot of our listeners have, try to say Hans Holbein without singing the song.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Without saying ya afterwards.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: The House of Holbein.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: Ya! So, um, anyway, so they have a really nice Holbein pick if you want to look it up.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: It actually was the original was destroyed in a fire, um, but you can find some like replications of it online.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so anyway, that is most of his early life.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so Megan, do you want to take over when he was elected to parliament in 1504?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: So now that he's a lawyer, he's really starting to climb the ranks here.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: In 1504, he got elected into parliament.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: Huge deal.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh 1510.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: You may have heard of it.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: You may have heard of it.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: 1510, he starts to represent London in the parliament.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and people called him an honest and effective public servant.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: So people really liked him.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: He was very smart, he was very compassionate, very calm.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: He spoke for the people, and he was a good vote in there.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he was also secretary and personal advisor to our best friend, King Henry the Eighth.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so he's like a good buddy of King Henry VIII.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think like as much as you can be a best friend to the king, yeah.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's a there's a strange line that you tiptoe.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, is there real friendship genuine?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: You're in his favor or you're really not.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's kind of it's tough to discern his feelings towards you and how to say the right things to him all the time.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but he was kind of always there for Henry, like from when he got married to Catherine, and like this is very early ages of King Henry VIII.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um in 1521, he got knighted, so he is definitely in Henry's favor to the point where he calls him Harry.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: Do not forget that he goes Harry.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: Harry.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't remember, we got into a little tiff over Elizabeth not believing me.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: Megan won.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: Megan won.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: He was indeed called Harry.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: Only very close friends and family called him Harry.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: But Thomas Moore was right there in his inner circle.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh turn on my page here.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so fast forward just a couple years, 1529.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Woolsey is currently the Lord Chancellor and he has a downfall.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we are right in the thick of the whole Anne Boleyn debacle.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we've talked about this before, but in case you haven't had heard previous episodes or if you're just an uneducated fool, we will kind of get you caught up on the.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, help you with the current climate of what's going on.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so it's late 1520s in England.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Harry, well, Harry, evidently I'm in this interview.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: You're very close to Henry.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: Henry VIII is currently married to Catherine of Aragon, who is the Spanish queen who was previously married to Henry VIII's older brother Arthur.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: But he died real quick.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: And she moved on.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: And she moved on and went to Henry.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And they said it was okay for them to get married because she supposedly never consummated the marriage for the children.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: They being the church.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: The inevitable them.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: In parentheses.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Eric L.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: We never quite know who them is.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Them.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: The church, the government, right?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: Whoever.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Nobility.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: The nobility.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, but around this time, Henry's getting eyes for Anne Boleyn.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful Anne Boleyn.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because she's wonderful in every way.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Ancestor to Elizabeth sitting here with us.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: We're just special women.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so sure.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Henry has eyes on her, and the whole time he's like, okay, how do I get out of my marriage with Catherine?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because I want to marry Anne.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: And this is kind of when everything starts boiling over.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this is where it gets really hot and heavy in England.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a gross way to say that.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's accurate.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: So the entire argument that King Henry VIII has as to why he should divorce Catherine and Mary Ann is because he doesn't believe that Catherine was a virgin when he married her.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: He believes that their marriage was actually consummated with his older brother Arthur and Catherine.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: And um, in that case, there is a line in the Bible that he points out to that this from Leviticus.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have it in front of me, but basically along the line says, like, you know, someone who lays with a brother, yeah, will not have will be barren and not have children.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: And um, Catherine has gone through many miscarriages, they've only had one daughter at this point, which is Princess Mary the First, aka Betty Mary.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, Mary Tudor or Bloody Mary.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so of course, our buddy here, Thomas More, devout Catholic.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: Here's the other thing Anne Boleyn is Protestant and trying to bring in the Reformation and change the ways Catherine of Aragon is Catholic and Spanish.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, what side is Sir Thomas More gonna land on?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's pretty obvious.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's pretty obvious.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: He's a huge Catherine of Aragon supporter and very anti-Anne Boleyn.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: And this is where it really becomes spectacle, and this is like a really cool thing in history to kind of dig into was Anne Boleyn kind of the moving force behind this?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: And because she's a woman, it came out through Henry, which is what was believed.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like she's a very strong-minded, very smart woman who knew her, well, she was educated, she knew the Bible, but she also knew the laws and she knew marriage, and she was, you know, really gun-ho on on reforming England and she was shrewd about how she did it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like she came to Henry saying, Hey, I'm Protestant, can you make this country Protestant?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: She just slowly gave him different books on the matter and saying, Hey, like, you're kind of the head of England.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: Shouldn't you also be head of the church?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like, shouldn't you also be more of a divine rule?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: Reading little things to him.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like why are you a slave to the Vatican?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't make sense why you're, you know, so devout to Rome.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so she slowly just kind of weaves these things in to the point where Henry's thinking to himself, like, she's right.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I I I am the king and I am the supreme power, and why am I always having to bow down to the Vatican?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: And she's getting it in his head, you need to separate from the Catholic Church, become the head of the Church of England, then you can annul your own marriage and marry me.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Done.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: One, two, three.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: One, two, three, and then it's done.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Clockwork.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and just to give you some background on what Tom is doing at this time, again, hardcore Catholic.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: He believes anything to do with the Protestant Reformation is heresy.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: He thinks any Lutheran books, um, any transportation of those books, any distributing of the Bible that's not in the Latin version, any Protestant literature, all of that is heresy.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: And he is arresting people left and right.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: He went on a big power trip.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, which is kind of funny because all of this, like, I, you know, he's a saint, Saint Thomas More, and people always envisioned him as this very pious and very good-natured and virtuous man, which is what we've said up until now, is what the people thought of him.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but he was had zero tolerance for anything to do with the Protestant Reformation and England had to be Catholic.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: That was it.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um there was something floating around at the time called the Tyndale Bible, which was available for people to read the Bible in their own and uneducated.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: I keep saying uneducated with a better synonym for this.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um the dumber people.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, better word, yeah, for sure.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, the people who couldn't read Latin could then actually read the stories of the Bible.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and he basically just he didn't like certain things in that Bible, like instead of calling it the the congregation, they called it the church, and just like little things he so anyone with this Bible, he was arresting them.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um it has been confirmed that he had at least six people burned at the stake for heresy while he was in the chancellor position.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: He denied a lot of it.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: He yeah, he denied um that he was violent with these people.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: The the six burnings are 100% confirmed.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: Those definitely happened.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: But when people confronted him about, hey, like, are you violent with these Protestants?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: Are you torturing them?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: Are you racking them?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: Are you whipping them?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: He he's like, No, why would I do that?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, I just burned these six people.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't torture anyone.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: Finally admitted to torturing two people.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: One was a child who got whipped, caned, caned for you know his heretical ways.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Damn that child.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: He's probably six years old.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of to put things into perspective, because I feel like there's this impression that there were burnings happening every other day in England, like that was just like, oh, you grab a turkey leg and you go and watch a burning at the stake.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Just every other week.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not necessarily though.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: In the entire century to that point, so in the five the sorry, the 1500s, there was only 30 burnings that whole century.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Up until Thomas More.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so six of those were him.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's it.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of quite a lot.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like if you look at it in relative terms, like he was very aggressive when when he came to power.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of scholars kind of debate on his religious actions because they say, okay, if we're looking at Thomas More, like he he whips himself, he sleeps on a log.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like he believes in a certain amount of corporal punishment on just on his own behalf.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: So it makes sense that he's so devout that he's now kind of carrying this over to other people that he wants to, like, you know, whip into shape, set him straight a little bit.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, you know, and other people believe that he was more pious, more devout until he got this power, and then he kind of had a turn of the tide where now he's abusing his power a bit.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a little bit a bit of a again kind of dichotomous thing in in the scholarly community of Wake, was this just how he was always, or did he have some sort of moment where he turned and needed to be more vicious because of his power?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: I believe that.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: And also, just to clarify, I don't think I really specified.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: So Woolsey fell, and so he becomes Lord Chancellor in 1529.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: He takes over Wolsey's role.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: So he's got he's got a lot of power, basically, and he's working for Henry VIII.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, same year, 1529, they also passed a law saying it's illegal to support any type of authority superior to the king.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Which is kind of a big statement when you think of it.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's huge.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: You're basically saying the king, yeah, the king is above the pope.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: King is above God.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: King is above any power you can imagine.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and specifically the king of England.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: Let's be straight on.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: We're not talking about Francis.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: We're not talking about the King of France, yeah.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: We're talking about one guy.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so comes what we call the oath of supremacy, which is acknowledging Henry as the supreme head of the Church of England.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: And again, saying he is the highest power, and everyone in the realm had to sign this oath saying, I agree, I acknowledge this, I long live the king.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: They went door to door, literally shoving this to people, this petition saying, Hey, swear your oath.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like, swear your oath to the king, acknowledge that he is supreme.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_03: And people did this mostly out of fear, because why would you defy your king?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: You're like, well, what does it mean if I don't sign it?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like, doesn't matter, just sign it.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: And they kept kind of like putting it in front of Thomas's face.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like it was kind of like that, hey bro, don't forget about this.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I'm just gonna leave this on on your desk for you to sign.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: Did you get that memo?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Let me get a copy for you.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, get another memo for you.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: We'll get another copy of that memo for you.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: And for a couple of years, they're dangling this in front of his face.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Finally, 1531, he makes it extremely clear.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: I am refusing to sign this oath.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: Big mistake.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: He made it, huge, huge.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: Huge mistake.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: He made it very clear that he wasn't signing the oath.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: He also made it clear that he wasn't supporting the divorce of Catherine of Aragon.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_03: Because at this point, again, he's officially with Anne Boleyn.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: They're a very public couple.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they're about to get married in 1533.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but he's saying, no, your divorce is not okay.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like your marriage isn't null and void.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: Your marriage is still still very much a marriage.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so he is now getting to a point where he's losing favor with the kid.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And Henry's getting like mad at him.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, bro, you were on my side.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: And at first I think he was like, Yeah, of course he was.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's like they're still best buddies.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, oh, okay, I'll kind of like give it to you, but like, can you please like just get on my side a little bit?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, May 16th, 1532, Thomas More officially resigns as his role in Lord Chancellor.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: He says he had poor health.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: More air quotes.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're doing air quotes here.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Poor health.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he still remained in favor with Henry, though, and I think Henry was either like completely oblivious to why he was resigning, or either Henry, you know, truly was just a really good friend, and he was like, Okay, I I get ya, you know, you're you're not gonna join the club, but um, but honestly, in Thomas More's heart, he couldn't he couldn't put himself up, you know, say that he's gonna agree to all these things that he just didn't believe what the government and what the parliament and all of his friends around him, all of his cronies that they were all going for.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: He just said, guys, I'm walking away, I'm resigning, I can't do this.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and so finally it comes, you know, push comes to shove, and uh Henry ends up marrying Anne Boleyn.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: So this is again back to 1533.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so what does Thomas do?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't attend Anne Boleyn's coronation.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's like official.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's a no.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's like not coming to your best friend's birthday party.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Their baby showers, their graduation, their wedding.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't agree with with what you're doing.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm not gonna come to your party.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I don't go to anyone's baby showers.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: I know you don't on principle.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_03: You're basically like Thomas More.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: And like, oh, you're having a kid that can't be friends with you again.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: And this wasn't illegal.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: There was nothing saying he had to go to the coronation, but it was a huge snub.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly as you can imagine.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was very obvious to Anne and everybody.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: They're all like, um, have you seen Tom?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: Where's uh your friend Tom?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: Did Thomas here?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: Is he in the bathroom?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: Is he getting a drink right now?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: Tom's been at the bar for a really long time.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they're like, he's coming.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: Don't worry, Thomas is coming.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: But he didn't.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: But he didn't show up, never showed up.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: Which was a huge statement.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: And so coincidentally, um, that same year, 1533, right after the coronation, they charged him with accepting bribes.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: And this is actually funny because it overlaps with another episode we had.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, this help.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_03: I know, but if you remember Miss Elizabeth Barton, um the Holy Nun of Kent, um, he actually had given her counsel or at least accepted meetings with her when she came uh to London and claimed that she had these visions and she was speaking on behalf of God.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: So because uh he had had involvement with Elizabeth Barton, um, and she was hanged at this point, she was hanged in 15 uh 34, same year.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um they they basically were like, hey, you we we think that you're now like no good.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: You're accepting bribes, you're helping out the wrong people, you're no longer on our side.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um so then he again doesn't give up at that point.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: He still refuses to sign the still kind of putting this in his face.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: At any given time, sign this oath.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: So it's almost like a threat.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like they threat they threaten uh threatened him with the accepting of bribes, they keep shoving the paper in his face, saying, Hey, just sign the oath, like just acknowledge that Anne is queen, like acknowledge that her future children's kind of a new document that they shove in his face.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: They do, they but they they put them kind of both, like it's still it's still the oath of um uh supremacy, but then it's also the oath of succession, which is the act of succession.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yes, thank you.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: The act of succession saying, like, hey, like if she has children, they're legitimate children, like she is queen.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: You have to acknowledge all of that.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: They're saying Anne is queen of England, and any child she has is gonna be the heir to the throne.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: And once again, Tom's like, no, thank you.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not signing this.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: I'll see you next week.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: No, thank you.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: So this is when they finally come down on him in 1534, arrested for treason.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: High treason.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: High treason.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: High treason.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: And where does he go?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: The Tower of London.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as he's in the Tower of London, Cromwell, our buddy Thomas Cromwell, keeps coming and urging him to sign the oath.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: And he keeps saying, Hey, again, at any given time, just sign this and walk away, and you're done.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: But he was pretty Adamant.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good word.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: Adamant.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um I we we love how King Henry VIII is always making up these laws.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Passing new rules to help himself out.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: He's that guy.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: If you're playing Monopoly with King Henry VIII, he is changing the rules as you're playing.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: Be like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: But um, no, there's this rule.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: When you're in purple, it means this.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's Henry for you, because it's his way or no way.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he very conveniently passes the Treasons Act of 1534.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: Convenient.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: Very convenient.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Convenient, basically saying um they they call it malicious silence.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: So perfect.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_03: You're being maliciously silent right now.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: The fact that Thomas wasn't saying anything, because it was a double-edged sword for him, he could either agree that sign the oath, agree that Henry was the highest power and all of supremacy and blah blah blah, in which case he believed his immortal soul will be forever damned.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: Or he remains quiet.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: Or that's the one option, he remains quiet.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Or but on the other side, if he does speak up, and because at this point he has never outrightfully said anything against Henry.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: No, he just refuses to sign the paper.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: He's not going around writing pamphlets saying Henry's terrible and what he's doing.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_03: He's saying he's simply saying, no thanks, like I'm not gonna say this.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so by saying nothing at all, they consider that in itself a crime.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Malicious silence.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_02: Terrible.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: The worst crime all the time.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: You're definitely gonna use that in an argument.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: I use it all the time.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: Next time I fight with someone and they kind of shut down, I'm gonna say, you're being maliciously silent.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm maliciously silent all the time.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: Do you just ever see me staring at you without saying anything?
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: Malicious silence.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_03: NS for short.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: So he got arrested in 1534.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: April of 1534.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't until July 1st, 1535, he had his first trial.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Guess who the judges are in this?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, tell us.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: Well, three of the judges are Anne Boleyn's father, her brother, and her uncle.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: So convenient.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's nice.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: All of his best friends.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: All there to be like, oh hey Tom, how you doing?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh remember when you wouldn't acknowledge her as queen?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: Hmm.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: He um had a very long beard at his trial because they never gave him a razor.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: He kind of hobbled in.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he's been in prison for over a year in the tower.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, altogether there were 18 people on the stand judging him.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: And this is kind of like the the English version of pleading of the fifth.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, I was gonna say the pleading the fifth.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like he continues to just refuse to answer any of their questions.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Joan of Arc did something.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, you're right.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: No, Joan of Arc did do that.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like they would ask questions and she would he just doesn't say anything.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: Move on.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: Move on, next, refuses to be.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: So maliciously silent.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um but what happens is finally, Thomas Cromwell comes in with the Solicitor General, Richard Rich, and he testifies that Moore denied the king as legitimate head of the church.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: So Moore never said it himself.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: He never denied Henry, never said he's not head of the church, you know, never discredited him.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: But finally, Thomas Cromwell was sick of all this, and he was like, Alright, Richard Rich, go and say that he said it at some point.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: So Richard gets on the stand and says, Yep, he definitely said King Henry, not legitimate head of the church.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so it only took them 15 minutes for the jury to reach a verdict.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: So after they heard this one testimony of this one person, they all get together and they say, All right.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: Not only that though, they had two witnesses who denied what Richard Rich said.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: He had so you have one witness saying one thing, two witnesses saying actually that didn't happen, and they believe the one guy.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: What the actual
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, his name's Richard Rich, so you gotta go with that.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: Well, he's Richie Rich's dad, you know?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, head of rich industries.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: And this is a prime example, and we've said this but time and time and again.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: They already knew the outcome.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, the whole trial was a formality.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: They already knew going into like okay, guys.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Let's like make this quick.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: I've got lunch in a little bit here.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've got my Door Dash over here.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: We got my Door Dash is waiting for me.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: Let's see how quickly we can do this.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: 15 minutes.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Guilty.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: So um, I have the actual sentencing that he got.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you do.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: Which might shock you because it's not what you're probably used to hearing.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_02: That he should be carried back to the Tower of London and from thence drawn on a hurdle through the city of London to Tyburn, there to be hanged till he should be half dead.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: That he should then be cut down alive, his privy parts cut off, his belly ripped, his bowels burnt, his four quarter set up over four gates of the city, and his head upon London Bridge.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: Also known as drawn and quartered.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: That is drawn and quartered to a team, my friends.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's perfect.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: But that didn't happen.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: No, no.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: Henry did take pity on him, so he reduced his drawn and quartering to a mere beheading, which is obviously easier.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think at that point it's just like, guys, we don't have the time and the money for this.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: Let's not do that.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: Let's not make a whole spectacle.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: But in all honesty, I mean it's his friend.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you give your friend the harshest sentence ever?
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: This whole thing though was um it was a statement.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because they had Are you good?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm good, sorry.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: The whole thing with this though is it was a statement.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure that was like truly wrestling in Henry's mind of like, am I really going to execute my best friend?
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: But if he didn't execute his friend for what he has clearly defined as treason, then no one will bow down to him, no one will sign the order.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: Respect him.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, respect him.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like they needed he needed to know I'm serious about this.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure that was part of Anne Boleyn's convincing as well, saying, you know, you have to do this.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_03: You have to do this.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: I know he's your best friend, but do you want to be seen as, you know, supreme head of the church?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like she's gotta make a decision.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: Of like, well, he's defying everything that you've asked for.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: And if you say no to this, if you just let him slip by with a little slap on the wrist, then you're gonna have a whole revolution coming at you.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: And at this point, this is finally when Moore is ready to talk a bit because he's been silent throughout most of this, and then finally, once he gets his sentence, he says, No temporal man may be the head of spirituality.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: So he's finally acknowledging, like, you know, Henry might think he's the guy, but no man can be the head of spirituality.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that is what the Magna Card is about.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's like separation of church and state.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's a good point.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, so let's remember he's also a lawyer, which is kind of the greatest part of all of this.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: And when they started reading off his sentence, he interrupts them and he goes, Um, excuse me, I believe it's a protocol for the prisoner to have any some of say in this, like some final words.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, Okay, Tom, like what do you want to say?
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he went into that exactly that that entire speech of this is against the Magna Carta, and unfortunately it didn't do so well for him.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: It didn't work.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_03: We're like, Oh, you're not a very good lawyer.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: Not a good lawyer.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um Yeah, it didn't change anything.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so by July 6th, 1535, his scaffold was put up and he was led to his beheading.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: He was.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he had a friend come and visit him in the tower, uh, Thomas Pope, and he told him, Hey, you're gonna be executed by 9 a.m.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he basically told him too, like, uh make it don't have a long speech.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: Make it short and simple.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna Some people can remember you by it.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: He was like, thank the king for whatever whatever he's done for him, which is shit, nothing.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: But like, make sure you thank the king and just keep it short and simple because you don't want to upset the king by drawing it out too long.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and Thomas actually says something along the lines, he's just like conversing with Thomas Pope, and like, actually, I'm very grateful for the time that the king has given me the tower because I've had time to reflect and pray, and now I'm pretty much ready for this.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's do this.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm out.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: Peace out, boys.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: Mamba out.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um he said, I am bound to him that his majesty is pleased to rid me of the miseries of this wretched world.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh poor Tom.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sweet and terrible at the same time.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, about 9 a.m.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: he gets let out, he's holding a red cross, and of course, they always have to make note like El Hane was so pale.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what the fuck do you think he's gonna look like?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: If someone says to the press on the day of my execution, like, oh, she just looked so pale and sick.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like, she should have flushed her cheeks so.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: I should have pinched my cheeks a bit before I got to the scaffold.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like, dude, I don't care.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Duh, I'm pale.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: No, yes, I'm about to get my head cut off.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: Give me this moment.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: Come on.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a random bystander offer a woman offered him some wine, and he was like, Jesus Christ didn't have wine at his execution.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: I will not have wine at mine.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like something very like pompous.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you want to talk a little bit about the I'm kind of like going boom boom boom on this?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, I mean I don't want to take up all the good stuff here.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I have that, you know, the executioner had begged uh his pardon while he was praying because he was down on his knees praying at the scaffold, you know, and so the executioner felt terrible because he knew how holy this man was that he was executing.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, he begged his pardon over and over again, and then finally Thomas More got up and he kissed the executioner and he forgave him, and he basically said, like, you know, it's fine, like I've come to terms with this.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_03: And his official last words were, I am the king's servant and gods first.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: So making it apparent that yes, he's been loyal to Henry this whole time, but God's above all else.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, kind of like the final smack in the face.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: Which is a little testy.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: So there was, I did read.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: Never mind drawing quote of him.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: We can still call her you at any time, Tom.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um just a couple other things I have.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um his daughter, Margaret, or was he stepped on.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this was Alice his second wife.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_03: Alice's second wife.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Alice's daughter was present, and she was the only family member.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: She was the only one there, and they she kept in really close contact with her stepdad all through while he was in prison.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: She was the only one who showed up.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: There's this like beautifully sad portrait painted in the 1870s of like Margaret reaching out for him and like crying for him and him being surrounded by the soldiers, and yeah.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's it's very sad.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: And Meg and I were talking about this.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, would you want your family to be there to see you executed?
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what what would you see it as?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_03: And would you want me there when you get executed?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: When I get executed, because it's a fact.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I I would want people there because that's your last moment.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like the last time people have to just see you and say hi to you or whatever.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like it would be so lonely if you looked out into a crowd and saw empty faces, like no one who meant anything to you in your life, and some people who are probably like n just there for excitement to be like, oh, let's watch this execution, you know.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I I would really like it.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: Please come to my execution.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna look at it, but I'll be there.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like I'll support I don't necessarily want you to watch it and watch the gore and the gruesomeness and the people smearing the blood afterwards, like just come and be there.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: So you're 21, by the way, is this what's gonna be hey?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_03: I've seen Handmaid's Tale, shit goes down in the future.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm just saying, like, when I have an execution, please be there for me, y'all.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: I watched I want to see your faces, and then it's the end of my life, but do you just look away?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you look away, just be there for me in this one moment.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: Just in the one moment, you look away, you don't have to see all the disgusting stuff, and then remember me as I was when I was young and wild.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just telling you.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: Just wanted to be on record here.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, um, back to Thomas Moore.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: 1935, he was canonized by the Catholic Church, seen as a saint and a martyr.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, let's talk real quick about his body though.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: So his head, as is tradition, was put on a pike on London Bridge.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the body unmarked grave at the tower and was put in the chapel of St.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: Peter uh at Vincula.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: So uh we've talked about this a few times, you know, that's usually the tradition with people who were murdered.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: Put on show.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: Not murdered, executioned.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's a murderer.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: Executed government order ordered murderer.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um so they said that Margaret uh was the one who took his body, buried it for him, and then a few days later was able to recover his head.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: A few days or a few weeks?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: Days to weeks.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Days to weeks.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: Anywhere between weeks two and twenty one days, I don't know.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_03: Again, where are his other kids?
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_03: COVID-related delays, I don't know.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know where his other kids are.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's odd that the only person was the stepdaughter.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um Yeah, it's Sir Thomas More.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we do have a new segment.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: We do.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_03: We created it today, kind of in honor of Sir Thomas Moore.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: And this is why I had to call my mom to see if this was okay.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_03: When in doubt, call your mom.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: I apologize if this segment is not okay because to come off as um what's a good word for it?
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: Offensive.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: Offensive.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: Inconsiderate.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: Inconsiderate.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh heretic.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: Distasteful.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hereticish.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: But it's called canonize that.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so it kind of feels like in the 1920s and 30s they got a little crazy about canonizing all of these saints.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: All of a sudden everyone was canonized.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: Jonah Varc was.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's just others.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: Others.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_03: Sir Thomas More.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_03: Sir Thomas More.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: They're like all of a sudden they just pulled all these people out of the Renaissance era, dark ages, and were like, let's make all these people who died saints.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: Good for them.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: So we had this deep conversation about okay, if it were 500 years from now, similar to how it was 500 years for Sir Thomas to finally be canonized.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: Who would we canonize in this day and age?
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: Which is a big question.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: And my mother said that is completely distasteful.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: You should not be talking about that.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: She said, she started off our conversation and she's like, yeah, you can't do that.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: But we're gonna do it.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, we get with respect.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna respect we're not like picking like silly people like that.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: At first I thought Taylor Swift, but my mom said, no, you can't talk about turning Taylor Swift into a saint.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we didn't do that.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: I get it.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: Although she does do a lot of charity work and she's nobody and you know.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: My mom kind of talked us out of that.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: But then we actually started thinking about true humanitarians who have met the criteria.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, Elizabeth, what is the criteria to become a saint?
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you asking me that?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because you looked it up earlier.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't have it saved.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, pull it up.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: Dude, put me on the spot here.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: Just Google.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: Criteria to become a how to It's right there in your search.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: How to Research History How to Get Canonized.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, step one.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_03: First one.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: First step one.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_03: Wait five years.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: At least.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: Step two, become a servant of God.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_03: Step three, show proof of life of heroic virtue.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: Four.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: Verified miracles.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_03: Step five, canonization.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_03: Easy.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_03: One, two, three, four, five.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's on Google.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's real.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, so we we looked at this and we said, okay, who do we know in maybe modernish times?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: And this might be to get a little flexible, because I don't know if these people have proof of verified.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_03: Servants of God and miracles.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think what they've done is heroic, and I think that's all we can focus on.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: You kick it off.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: Oh shit.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say Taylor Swift, but Well, now you gotta pick someone real.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: You go first.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I was just thinking, and maybe this is a recency bias, but um, on Hulu, oh good lord.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: There is a show, and it is called I Am Greta.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: You don't need the.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I love this little girl, but her name is Greta Thunberg.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: It is a part of her.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: Thunberg, I don't know how to say that.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_03: They're educated, remember?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, that's right.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: They're educated.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, she's 18 now?
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she's 18.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: I thought she was still a child.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: She's older now.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but so she is an environmental activist.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, she started when she was very young, basically just like, you know, going around with signs like pseudo-protesting, leading like marches, going to big conferences, speaking to world leaders, and basically saying, like, what we're doing to the earth is not okay.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_03: So, sure, maybe she's not a verified miracle worker, um, but she's like someone who's so passionate about her cause and is so um trying to, you know, work against climate change and figure out how we're going to like save our planet.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_03: I thought that was, I don't know, appropriate.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: I I really like just again her her drive.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like, she doesn't even take airplanes um because of the amount of fuel that they consume.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_03: So she's like dedicated to this life of like, you know, reusing her own reuse, recycle.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like she's trying to make everything as green as possible to the point where again, she's like this, she's dedicated her whole life to this.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe it's not, again, what you would define as today.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my god, you're right.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's also my husband's birthday today.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: It is January 3rd.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_03: So we're releasing this episode a couple days later.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_03: January 3rd is the day we're recording.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_03: Oh well, happy birthday, Greta.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_03: Happy birthday! I actually I didn't mean for that to happen.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: But now Elizabeth wants you to be a saint.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: Give it five years.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: Greta, give it five years.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: We'll make you a big thing.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: No, we said we weren't gonna make this funny.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: We're being serious.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: We are being serious.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: My person's better.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: I actually just thought of someone.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you can't say better because it's Greta's birthday, and that's really rude.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_02: But mine's better.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: Fine.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you're gonna be mind-blown.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, because you just made it up right now.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, oh god.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go with my my my Jewish-ness.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: My Jewish.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna pull my Jew card right now.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, put your Jew card on the table.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: Jewish, okay.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: 49% already Jewish.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_02: Jewish.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: I would say Oscar Schindler.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: Remind me.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Schindler's list?
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_03: I thought that's what you're referring to.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_03: I've actually never seen that movie.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: I thought you were friends with a Jew.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_03: What you?
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my face.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_03: I am friends with Jewish, many Jewish people.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: I've dated many Jewish people.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, well, Oscar Schindler is the reason why thousands and thousands of Jews were saved from the Holocaust.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's very nice.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: Can you can you tell me a little bit about his story?
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he was originally a member of the Nazi Party.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: I guess it's seriously holding.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: What happened to Jane Goodall?
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: Here, you can't do that.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: You just gotta stick to what you know.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: No, I feel like in my heart, I would choose Oscar Schindler.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: He was actually part of the Nazi party, but he was credited with saving 1,200 Jews during the Holocaust by employing them to work for him and making ammunition.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: But he's a Nazi, to be clear, he was like, but he like wasn't actually a Nazi.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: He was just a Nazi because he had to be a Nazi, but really the whole thing was like a front and a cover to get people out.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you think he's better than Greta?
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think he saved 1,200 people from the Holocaust.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's pretty good.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's pretty good.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: That is good.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: And you think we should be a shitty segment.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: We should not have done that.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_03: I really like this segment because I'm very comfortable with it.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: But what about Oprah?
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, you can't just change it.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oprah has done a lot for like women's education.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_02: I love Oprah and yes, like schooling in Africa and journeys.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, you've got to fix a person.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my god.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we're so sorry about this.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: We're so sorry about all this.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_03: I stick to Greta.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_03: Megan has many people on her list.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um my gosh, there's so many I could say right now.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: Mark Louis.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think she's just Googling humanitarian.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_03: Congratulations.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think I totally destroyed this whole segment.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well um, we'll fix this.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay, and that's our first segment of canonize that.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: Segment that you will never hear us do again.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I just apologize.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we're we're not sure.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna discuss this in depth after and determine if this is part of our future.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth, before I keep rambling here, any final words?
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: We know we need to be done.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: No more.