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IFH 875: The Screenwriting Advice Hollywood Writers Actually Use with Ron Peters · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network.
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• 0:12
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, episode number 875.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: You try to do it, and you do it honestly.
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  Speaker 1: You can't control people's responses, really.
• 0:21
  Speaker 4: Edgar Wright.
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  Speaker 3: Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is
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  Speaker 3: sponsored by Rise of the Filmtrepreneur, how to turn your
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• 1:51
  Speaker 3: Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Bullis.
• 1:55
  Speaker 5: Hey everyone, thanks again for hitting that play button. Thanks
• 1:58
  Speaker 5: again for joining me for another episode. Joining me today
• 2:00
  Speaker 5: is Ron Peters. Ron is a screenwriter, story analyst, and editor.
• 2:04
  Speaker 5: He is known for his work on the TV series Luck,
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: and also the movies Defiance, The Wolf of Wall Street, Fury,
• 2:11
  Speaker 5: and the upcoming Now You See Me 2. Ron, thank
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: you very much for joining us today.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Dave, for having me. So, Ron, could you give.
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: Us a little bit about your background and how you
• 2:20
  Speaker 5: got started in writing?
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I kind of started really young. My mom
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: would bring home these really fancy, hardbound journal notebooks from
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: where she worked. And I would just kind of write
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: and draw in them, unbeknownst to me that they were
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: actually like worth $ 150. And then my mom would get
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: angry at me for coloring and writing stories in them.
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: And then that moved on to somewhere around the age
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: of seven or eight. My mom had a digital camera,
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: which were popular at the time, and you could record
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: 15 seconds of video at most. And so my brother
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: and I would make these little home movies with each
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: shot being no more than 15 seconds. And then from there,
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: I was drawn to the media classes in high school.
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: And I made a couple films while I was in
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: high school and actually had, uh, that, that I wrote
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: and directed, um, and, and had a, uh, like kind
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: of partnership with the school, whereas I could miss half
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: of school to go make this movie, which we had
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: gone out and gotten investors for, and then eventually got
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: a small East Coast distribution for and also chose to
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: donate all the profits to the American Cancer Society. So
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: that's kind of how I got started. And then that film,
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: my second one of those films, the first one was
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: called Friends of Crime. And the second one was called
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: Joey Rothstein and the Commission. And that second film got
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: me noticed at a film festival. And I was lucky
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: enough to get a letter of recommendation from Ed Zwick,
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: the director of And that kind of then started me
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: on my way. And then I started working on Defiance,
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: which is an Ed Zwick film right after that. And
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: it's just kind of steadily grown from there. And now
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: I'm lucky enough where I'm at the point where I
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: get to travel a lot and be on set for
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: all these much bigger films, these huge studio films. And
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: that's really the best benefit is to be able to
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: see the world and see all these different cultures.
• 4:42
  Speaker 5: How were you able to convince the school to let
• 4:44
  Speaker 5: you miss half of school to do the movie, though?
• 4:47
  Speaker 5: I mean, did you have to get your parents involved
• 4:49
  Speaker 5: and talk to the principal and something like that?
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: You know, I don't think they actually got involved. I
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: was kind.
• 4:56
  Speaker 5: Of.
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  Speaker 4: Honestly, I was kind of very lucky enough when I
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: was a kid. I was kind of very charming. And
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: I kind of used that and in some cases abused
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: it to get what I wanted as far as making
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: these movies. I was just always drawn to it. I
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: was always... something that like, honestly, my parents really didn't
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: support that decision of, of being a quote unquote artist. Um,
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: there was many fights with my father about it. Um,
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: but it was just something that I was always drawn to.
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: And I was kind of hardheaded in the fact that
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: I wasn't going to let anybody tell me what to
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: do or that I couldn't do something. And, I honestly
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: think I just went down to the principal's office and said, Hey,
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: I'm doing this film. And, uh, a big selling point
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: I remember was the fact that we were donating all
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: the profits to the American cancer society and they used
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: it as like a, uh, I think like an out
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: of work program is something that they called it.
• 5:58
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, that's a pretty, that's pretty cool how
• 6:00
  Speaker 5: you were able to, you know, charm your way to
• 6:02
  Speaker 5: do that because when you were telling the story, I
• 6:05
  Speaker 5: could just imagine, uh, somebody pitched that idea nowadays, they'd
• 6:09
  Speaker 5: be like, what?
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: Are you kidding me?
• 6:10
  Speaker 5: So, you know, it's just interesting to see how things
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: have changed. You know, maybe there is, you know, a
• 6:15
  Speaker 5: principal out there who would be, you know, very, what's
• 6:19
  Speaker 5: the word I'm looking for? Very encouraging to students.
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's actually really interesting because when I was in
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: high school, whenever we had like, I mean, I love
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: to write, but at the time in high school, I
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: was really attracted to directing and using the camera to
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: tell stories. I mean, I would write them out. I
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: would flush them out. Um, usually through very, very long
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: treatments at the time, they weren't like full on scripts, uh,
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: except for the two films. But I would, I would
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: always try and barter and negotiate with my teacher. If
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: we had like a project or we had to write
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: a five page paper on something, I would, I would
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: convince them in, in many cases that I could make
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: a video that would demonstrate my knowledge of the subject
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  Speaker 4: much better than if I were to write it in
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: a five-page essay. And then we can show it to
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: the class, and kids can talk about it, and it
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: could be a fun way to learn this. And in
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: most cases, I remember making one in social studies on
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: Roe v. Wade. I remember making one in English class
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: on racism. And that's what I would do. And it's
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: funny because nowadays a lot of kids are doing that
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: as well. When I go back to my old high
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: school and I talk to some of my teachers, they
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: tell me that a lot of kids are one given
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: the privilege to do it, but are also really interested
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: in doing it that way and making videos as far
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: as their projects go.
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  Speaker 5: It's interesting because I was able to do that in
• 7:52
  Speaker 5: my high school. We actually shot a episode, a Romeo
• 7:57
  Speaker 5: and Juliet, But we actually shot it as an episode
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: of Jerry Springer. So we had like.
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: That's brilliant. We had the.
• 8:05
  Speaker 5: Capulets and the... What is it?
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: The Montagues? Montagues, yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: And we had each side and they would bring out
• 8:13
  Speaker 5: their guest. And we had a guy playing Jerry Springer.
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  Speaker 5: The teacher said in his analysis of it, you got
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: a written feedback. And he's like, this is either the best...
• 8:24
  Speaker 5: entry for this class, or this is the worst entry
• 8:28
  Speaker 5: in this class, and I'm not quite sure.
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  Speaker 4: That's usually a good thing, though. That's usually a good thing.
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  Speaker 5: It's just funny. You just reminded me when you were
• 8:36
  Speaker 5: talking about that. It's just better that way.
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's like sometimes school can be boring. I
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: get it. But when you give the kids freedom to
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: express their knowledge of the subject, like making Romeo and
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: Juliet out of Jerry Springer, or any other way in
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  Speaker 4: the way that they know is that they feel is
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: best to express it. I am all for that. And
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: I just think that's more engaging, more entertaining. And also
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: there's more learning involved in that way.
• 9:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I concur. And, you know, with everything going towards
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: video and especially mobile video now, you know, I think
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: it's encouraging to hear that they're out allowing students to
• 9:16
  Speaker 5: do that.
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 9:19
  Speaker 5: So, you know, you mentioned you travel the world a lot.
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: I know I saw we actually met on Instagram and,
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: you know, I saw these great photos, you know, from
• 9:26
  Speaker 5: all over the world. So, you know, basically, I guess
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: you can do that now because, you know, if somebody
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: needs to hire you, Ron, they can just obviously email
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: you and you can be in Iceland or China or Thailand. And,
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: you know, there's not really that big of a difference, right?
• 9:40
  Speaker 5: Because you're still going to communicate through either email or Skype, right?
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, thanks to Skype and FaceTime and email,
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: it makes it a lot easier. I still have to
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: like I'm in Los Angeles right now and I still
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: have to come back here for a lot of.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Uh we'll be right back after a word from our
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: sponsor and now back to the show.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: Whether it's just pre-production meetings or script meetings because everything
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: kind of starts here and then goes out um but
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: yeah i mean the technology has made uh has shrunk
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: the world in a sense. Yeah. Uh, very true.
• 10:22
  Speaker 5: I actually know a, uh, he was a former exec
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: at Fox and he actually basically retired at, I think
• 10:30
  Speaker 5: around the age of 50, 55. And he, what he
• 10:33
  Speaker 5: does now is he travels the world. Uh, and he just, that,
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: that's his whole thing now. And I'm still trying to
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: get him on to come on the podcast, but you know,
• 10:41
  Speaker 5: now he just, you know, he'll, he'll go to China.
• 10:44
  Speaker 5: He takes a video with his phone, he uploads it. Uh,
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: he does interviews with people from all over the world.
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: It's really fascinating.
• 10:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: And I just, I think travel, uh, breeds maturation. I
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: think you really get a sense, you get a broader
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: sense of life when you travel and you see how
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: different people interact, react, eat, uh, treat others, live, um,
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: go by their day-to-day things. I just think when you
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: see that the broad diversity in the world that there
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: is with that, I don't know. For me, it just
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: really brings a sense of, I don't know how to
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: say it, but I don't want to say maturity, but
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: it feels like maturity is what it feels like.
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: I get what you're saying. It's kind of like that
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: TV show, An Idiot Abroad, with Carl Pilkington.
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: I love that show. That show's hilarious.
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: Because Stephen Merchant, when he left, he said to him,
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: he was, Carl, traveling, I really think, broadens the mind.
• 11:56
  Speaker 5: And of course, they're trying to get him to understand
• 11:58
  Speaker 5: other people's cultures. I mean, he barely can live in
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: the British culture as it is.
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: They throw him under the bus so hard. They put
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: him in every horrible situation possible. which is kind of
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: funny because he's like the perfect person to, to be
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: put in that situation as far as like us as
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: viewers to watch him. But man, I feel bad for
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: him sometimes. Yeah.
• 12:22
  Speaker 5: Uh, some of the, some of the countries and some
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: of the things they had him do, uh, it was just,
• 12:26
  Speaker 5: it was, it was absolutely hilarious. And his reaction to
• 12:28
  Speaker 5: everything is to basically, he just doesn't understand anything. And, uh,
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: it's a, for anyone who hasn't seen it, that is
• 12:36
  Speaker 5: listening to this, I'll link to it in the show notes,
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: but it's a, a great show that I highly recommend.
• 12:41
  Speaker 5: You know, Ron, just to, you know, as we sort of,
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: you know, talk about, you know, all your experiences and
• 12:46
  Speaker 5: everything like that, you know, you know, you got involved
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: in the TV show Defiance. I'm sorry, the movie Defiance.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: You know, which actually has Daniel Craig in it, you know.
• 12:55
  Speaker 5: So how did you actually get involved with the movie?
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: Through Ed Zwick, who saw my second film, um and
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: we met and he was very very gracious um kind
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: of in his praise and in his um offering to
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: bring me on board that this film that we're we're
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: working on right now i'd love for you to take
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: a look at the script um i love what you
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: can possibly bring as far as writing and and that
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: was pretty much it and then that that's really what
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: opened a lot of doors afterwards for that for me.
• 13:33
  Speaker 5: So You know, when you get the script, okay, so
• 13:36
  Speaker 5: when you got the script for Defiance, you know, what
• 13:38
  Speaker 5: was one of the first things that you did with
• 13:41
  Speaker 5: the script? I mean, did you, you know, read it
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: cover to cover and not make any notes? Or, you know,
• 13:46
  Speaker 5: do you take a red pen out and write ideas
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: down as you're going?
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Wow, Defiance was like almost seven or eight years
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: ago or something like that. But yeah, every script is
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: kind of different. Usually I'll read it first page to
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: last page, no notes. Maybe I'll jot an idea down
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: here or there, but I just want to see if
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: I would enjoy this film at the theater first. And
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: then from there, I'll break it down structurally. And from there,
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: then after structurally, I'll go character. And it's interesting because
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: I go character second, but character I think is almost
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: more important than structurally because you can have a great
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: structure of a screenplay, but if you're not If you
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: don't have entertaining or interesting characters, it's still boring. We're
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: not going to learn anything. We're not going to be
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: able to relate to anybody on screen. And so that's
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: kind of my process. But it always differs per script,
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: to be honest. Like with Wolf, okay, I got to
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: be honest. So when I work on a script, I
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: also find myself and my lifestyle kind of molding a
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: bit towards what I'm working on. so like for instance
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: when i was working on wolf you know you're going
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: out with your friends a lot you're having fun you're
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: kind of experiencing it you're taking that as quote-unquote research
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: for what you're working on and you and i and
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: then i engage myself in that lifestyle versus when even
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: though i was working on fury it was very regimented
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: i would make my bed every morning um And so
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: for me personally, that's kind of almost how I work.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: I've noticed that subconsciously at this point in my life.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: But so that's why it depends. It differs every script.
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, sometimes like with Fury, I'll be very, very
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: detail oriented and I'll use a specific pen and I'll
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: make a specific number two pencil and I'll make sure
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: it's sharpened to the point every time before I write.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: And little things like that really, for me, keep me
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: in it. make me believe, if that makes sense.
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: I see exactly what you mean. You know, I think,
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: you know, once we get in that mindset and, you know,
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: it's almost like how an actor does method acting. It's
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: almost like method writing.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: And to be honest, I mean, not to sound pompous,
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: but as a writer, when you are writing, you are God.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: You are playing God. You can puppeteer the characters, the setting,
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: the weather, any which way you want. So you literally
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: have the responsibility of God when you're writing. You have
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: to put yourself in the shoes of each and every character.
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: No matter how much you dislike or how much of
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: a jerk or an asshole a certain character is, you
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: have to put yourself in their shoes. Because no matter
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: how bad of a person someone thinks another person is,
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: we all do things for what we think are the
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: right reasons, personally. You know, like, Hitler, horrible, horrible person.
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: But what he thought in his head, he was doing
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: the right thing. Though I don't agree with that, for
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: the record. I don't agree. I thought Hitler was a
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: fucking idiot and what he did was absolutely horrible. But
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: when you look at it from the perspective of a writer,
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: when you have an antagonist, when you have a villain
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: in your film, your screenplay, whatever it is that you're writing, you...
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: have to put yourself in their shoes and try and
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: see and understand why do they think this is the
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: right thing that they're doing. And so that's why kind of, yeah,
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: it's like method. You have to do that for the
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: responsibility that you have to the story.
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: You know, I think Mickey Rourke is somebody who said
• 17:42
  Speaker 5: it best when he said that most writers don't understand
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: the antagonist. He said sometimes, or sorry, most of the time,
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: they're just evil for the sake of being evil themselves. And,
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: you know, it's like you said, you know, you have
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: to put yourself in their shoes and have to make
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: it believable as to why they're doing what they're doing.
• 18:01
  Speaker 5: Because in reality, you know, nobody really gets up one
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: morning and says, I'm going to be evil today.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: But, you know. Exactly. And the character, the lead character,
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: the protagonist isn't going to be, the protagonist is only
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: as strong as his or her antagonist, depending on how hard.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: that the antagonist hits back at him to stop him
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: from reaching his goal is only going to show you
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: how strong of the protagonist that he really is.
• 18:30
  Speaker 5: As we talk about the antagonist and the protagonist, you
• 18:33
  Speaker 5: also worked on the script for the movie The Wolf
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: of Wall Street. Honestly, Ron, I walked into the movie
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: and I didn't know what to expect. I know it
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: was Scorsese, and I walked out and I was like, wow,
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: that was ten times better than I thought it was
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: going to be. It reminded me a lot of... Leaving
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: Las Vegas. Fear and Loathing of Las Vegas. Leaving Las
• 18:53
  Speaker 5: Vegas is a very down movie.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's a great film as well. It's a
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: great film. My favorite line, just a quick side note,
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: my favorite line from Leaving Las Vegas is when Nick
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: Cage is poking his head out the car window and
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: he's like, you got a great ass, but shut your
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: head all the way up it. I love that quote. Anyways.
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: It reminded me of Fear and Loathing of Las Vegas. So,
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: you know, When you get a script like The Wolf
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: of Wall Street, how do you handle something like that
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: that really doesn't have a clear... I mean, we have
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: a clear protagonist, which is Jordan Belfort, but our antagonist
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: could be a couple of different things. But when you
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: get a script like that, Ron, how do you sort
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: of work through that?
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: Well, first off, Terry Winter, who was the head writer
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: on Wolf of Wall Street, the main guy, He did
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: a fantastic job. And that script was actually drafted like
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: six or seven years before we went into production on it.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: And I remember working with Terry, and he would tell
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: me that he, him and Marty would talk, and Terry
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: specifically said, I'm going to kind of mold this structurally
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: after Goodfellas. Terry was like, I feel like this story
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: would be perfectly told in that type of sense. And
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: so we started with that. And we started with that
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: structure and that kind of idea of this one man's
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: almost life story through all the crazy experiences he has,
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: and is he even going to make it out alive
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: in the end? And you have characters like Dignam, who's
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: your FBI, you can say like actual physical character of
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: an antagonist. But also in those films, what makes them
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: also kind of relatable is the source of antagonism as
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: far as Jordan Belfort's greed himself and how many quote
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: unquote pleasures that can bring you But at the same time,
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: how many pains and forces to stop you from having
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: the other aspects of life that you want, like say
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: a family and children, where how greed and self-obsession can
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: turn into a drug addiction, can turn into this, and
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: can really hinder you from having what I think are
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: the lasting things in life. So there's also other sources
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: of antagonism besides physical. Sometimes those are, to me, more interesting.
• 21:40
  Speaker 5: I concur because, you know, as I was watching the movie,
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: you know, I was realizing, you know, Jordan's worst enemy
• 21:46
  Speaker 5: is himself.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: And also, you know, as we're watching this movie, the
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: conflict is really with himself. It's a lot of internal
• 21:52
  Speaker 5: conflict that plays out externally. Yeah.
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: And it's so interesting too because that also, that own
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: internal conflict is also kind of what drives him and
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: motivates him and inspires him to make more money, to
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: go out and do these illegal things. And that's so
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: interesting to me, like that type of characterization.
• 22:11
  Speaker 5: It really did. And, you know, the ending really, it
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: was very interesting too, because it didn't end in the
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: way that I thought it was going to end. I
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: wasn't too familiar with Jordan's story, you know, going into it.
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: But when at the end, when he's just simply tells
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: the guy, sell me this pen, you know, It's actually
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: pretty thought-provoking, too, because you could be taken a number
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: of different ways. And the way that I took it was, basically,
• 22:38
  Speaker 5: you'd have to say to Jordan, when he says, sell
• 22:40
  Speaker 5: me this pen, you take the pen from him and say,
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: could you write your name down? And then when he says, oh,
• 22:45
  Speaker 5: when Jordan would have to say, well, I need a
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: pen for that, that's when you try to sell him
• 22:48
  Speaker 5: the pen. But it's interesting because even now, Jordan goes
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: on seminars like that. And he's selling people the experience.
• 22:58
  Speaker 5: He's doing all this other stuff. So it's all pretty
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: interesting how the movie ties together in the end.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that actually wasn't the original ending either. I'm
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: trying to remember. I talked about this a lot when
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: I was doing press for it when the film came out.
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: The original... Oh, man. I honestly don't remember the original
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: ending right now on my head. Um, um, but I
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: know like a lot of the stuff that was actually
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: in the beginning, as far as like his backstory was
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: also kind of towards the end. Oh wait, you know what?
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: Maybe I have the script. I can just kind of
• 23:41
  Speaker 4: pull out the original script. If you give me five minutes,
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: we can keep talking and I'll try and find the
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: original script to see if I can pull it up here. Okay.
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: That sounds, that sounds great. Um, So as we sort
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: of talk about movies and stuff like that, about the
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: tension and goals and stuff like that, so again, when
• 24:01
  Speaker 5: you're reading these scripts, I often wonder what screenplay readers
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: and consultants and everything, I know that everybody sort of
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: has a different way of looking at things, but I
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: think one thing that everyone has to look for are
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: two things. Number one is, what is the core of
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: the story? And number two is, What is the essence
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: of every scene? Is that something that you do when
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: you're reading the scripts?
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah. The biggest mistake that writers make is keeping in
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: their babies, which are scenes that they think are amazing
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: or they show this great aspect, but really they don't
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: progress the story. They're there because the writer loves his
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: own writing and nothing really more than that. But it's
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: it's actually really interesting because I get the the the
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: title of script analysis and script coordinator and script editor
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: for my credit but it's really interesting because I'm not
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: always a huge fan of necessarily what I do for
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: a lot of writers because I it becomes a crutch.
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: And I think writers should have more trust and faith
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: in themselves. I've kind of carved out this niche where
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: studios bring me in a lot for structural reasons or
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: like quick scene rewrites is what I found myself to
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: be doing a lot. I don't always necessarily go over
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: the entire script. I mean, Wolf I did. Now You
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: See Me I did. Fury I did. Defiance, yeah. But like,
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: For instance, scenes like for Funny People. I also just
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: recently worked on the TV show, the reboot of Twin Peaks.
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: And I was simply just brought in for that to
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: give them a younger demographic's eyes on the story. If
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: they could see somebody younger being able to relate to it. So,
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean... There's a lot of them
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: out there. And it's funny that we're talking about this
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: at the same time we just got done talking about
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: Jordan Belfort and people that go out there and sell
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: this lifestyle. Everybody's obsessed with DJ Khaled right now and
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: everything that he sells on his social media stuff. There's
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: that guy Ty Lopez on YouTube that talks about his
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: Ferrari and books and all that stuff. Excuse me. But.
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: So, so I don't know. So there's some good ones
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: out there and there's some bad ones, but I would just,
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: if I would give any advice to writers, it would
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: be to trust themselves more with their own writing. I
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: know it's a demon. I know you got to battle
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: it daily, but, but you know, just mount up and
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: just trust yourself. That's the biggest thing that a lot
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: of people forget is their own uniqueness. A lot of
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: people forget. That they have a unique equation of experiences
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: that only they have gone through up until this point
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: where they're at in their life. And nobody else has
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: gone through that exact equation of experiences or had that
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: exact reaction after that experience. And I just say, don't
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: discredit it. Credit yourself.
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: One of the best books on writing I've ever read
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: was Stephen Pressfield's The War of Art.
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: Excuse me.
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: Um, and you know, that's about, you know, every day
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: it's about resistance and, you know, going in there and
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: doing the best work that you can. And, uh, you know, Steven, uh,
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: for those of you who, for those of you who
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: are familiar with the podcast, you know, I talk a
• 27:52
  Speaker 5: lot about Steven Pressfield and, uh, next to me right
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: now is four books of his that are just, I
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: think absolutely phenomenal. Anyone who wants to be a writer
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: should at least read the war of art. Um, but again,
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: you know, like you said, Ron, it's about going in there,
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: trusting yourself, And just beating that monster every single day.
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And anybody who wants to be a writer should
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: be reading every day. They should be reading every day.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: They should be writing every day. They should not be
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: relying on their quote unquote inspiration or their feeling of, oh,
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: I feel like writing. I have something to say today. No,
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: you become a good writer because you put in the work,
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: because you write every day. And not every day is
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: going to be good. And you have to accept that
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: 75% of what you write or type is going to
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: be garbage and shit. And it's going to go straight
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: to the trash. But you have to accept it. It's
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: part of the craft. And writing is rewriting. So you
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: come in every day as if it were a nine
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: to five and you sit down. There's a German phrase
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: called Siesfleisch, which means sticking your ass to the chair.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: And you just sit there and you bleed or you
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: type or you throw yourself into it. Whatever words that
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: you choose that get yourself in that emotional state of
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: being able to do it. That's all you really have
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: to do. Read, write every day, day in, day out.
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: And that's the best advice I can give.
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: I actually just received some of the 2015 best screenplays
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: of the year. People send me them in emails, and
• 29:25
  Speaker 5: I put together a photo of them, and I pick
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: up the movies I haven't seen yet, like Bridge of Spies.
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: I'm going to read that probably today or tomorrow. I
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: haven't seen the movie yet, but I want to read
• 29:35
  Speaker 5: the screenplay first. Although it might spoil the movie, I
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: hear it's awesome. I just want to dissect it.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: And I would be verbose if I didn't at least
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: mention that I'm very jealous that you got to read
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: the Twin Peaks scripts because I'm a huge Twin Peaks fan.
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: And I loved David Lynch when he was here in Philly.
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: I went to go see him and, like, tickets sold out.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: And now, back to the show.
• 30:11
  Speaker 5: Like, literally in minutes to go see him. And I
• 30:13
  Speaker 5: picked up two as soon as they went on sale.
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: I mean, I am just a huge fan of all
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: his work.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And he's an amazing man, too.
• 30:21
  Speaker 6: He.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: I worked on that show... kind of at the same
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: time as I was coming out of a relationship of
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: a breakup and he really helped me. I mean, he's
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: really big into the transcendental meditation and whatnot. Um, but
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: he really helped me as far as finding a sense
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: of peace as a man. Um, and also as an artist,
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: because I was many conversations we had about the struggle
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: of being an artist and as an artist, should you
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: constantly be feeling despair and sadness so you can put
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: it into your work? Like, is there something wrong with
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: feeling happy as an artist? And we talked a lot
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: about that and he really guided me in a, in
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: a good way. So I have nothing but praise for David.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, he's, he's such an auteur too. I mean,
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: he's such a maestro in his craft and he's, he
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: knows exactly what we wanted. You know, the show almost
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: didn't happen actually because, because David's requests for how to
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: shoot it were very specific and Showtime didn't want to
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: up the budget. And so like this, this could have,
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: The show could have been started to shoot like a
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: year ago, but because of that, maybe not a year ago,
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: maybe like nine months ago, but because Showtime didn't want
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: to up the budget, they were being kind of stingy
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: in that sense, it got delayed. And then finally they
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: gave in and we were able to start shooting like
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: three months ago.
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: That's great that they were able to finally come to
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: an agreement because somebody actually asked him when he was
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: here in Philly, probably about a year, year and a
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: half ago, They actually said to him, what are you
• 31:53
  Speaker 5: making next? Do you have anything on the pipeline? And
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: he said, well, no, I'm not working on anything right now.
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: And then about, I think, maybe a month after that
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: at most, the promo video for Twin Peaks Season 3
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: came on. And I was like, oh, my God, this
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: is phenomenal. And I mean, I know it's next year.
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: I think they said it's going to be released. But
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: I mean, honestly, I can't wait. Yeah.
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah. All I can say about is damn good coffee.
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: Trust me, if you could talk about it, I'd probably
• 32:23
  Speaker 5: talk your ear off. And I know you can't mention anything.
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: But just to continue your work and everything, you got
• 32:29
  Speaker 5: to work on Fury, which was the World War II
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: movie with Brad Pitt. You got that script. That's sort
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: of a very interesting movie because it's a lot of,
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: at least in the first half, is a lot of
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: battle scenes. Very heavy, detailed battle scenes. Obviously, it's a
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: World War II movie, so there's going to be some
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: tank battles. Again, you probably had to switch gears a
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: little bit because I'm sure there was probably a lot
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: of detailed action scenes in the script. Or maybe I'm
• 32:58
  Speaker 5: completely mistaken and there wasn't. So how did you go
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: about working with the script for Fury?
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: Well, the biggest difference from going from Wolf to Fury
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: was Fury is written by David Ayer. It's also directed
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: by David Ayer. So the script... already like you see
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: how he's going to shoot it. I mean, I'm very
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: familiar with with David and how he films. However, Fury
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: was one of the first films that he didn't use
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: so much handheld cameras. If you watch some of David's
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: earlier films, he does a lot of handheld camera filmmaking.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: And with Fury, Sony really wanted uh, smooth shot. I mean,
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: David also really wanted smooth shots. They were giving him
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: a much bigger budget. Um, so they kind of wanted
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: this very, because of the, the, the battle scenes were
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: going to be gory. They were going to, there's going
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: to be mud. There's going to be blood. There's going
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: to be bullets flying, tanks firing that, that they wanted
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: to shoot it kind of almost glossy in the sense
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: where like there's cranes and it's smooth and there's tracking shots.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: There's not gritty camera movement that's interfering with, uh, the viewer, uh,
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: interacting with the battle scenes themselves. And so you could
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: see it in the script, how kind of it was
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: already going to be shot. There's a little bit of
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: camera directions, which usually aren't in the script, but because
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: David's the writer director on it, he already has it
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: in his head how he wants to shoot it. And
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: so that was the biggest change of going to Fury
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: from Wolf because usually then you're the next step in
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: the process would be for the script writer, and the
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: team to go with the director and, and the director
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: then has to decide how he wants to shoot it
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: versus skipping that step completely because the writer is the
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: director and he's already got it in his head, how
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: he wants to shoot it. So the theory was just
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: more structurally. Um, there wasn't kind of, um, there wasn't
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: too much. David's so good with character work. He's so good.
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: He almost starts with, I, I, that, think that's actually
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: what he starts with when he writes is he starts
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: with characters so there wasn't much character work that needed
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: to be done with that i mean it was when
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: we talked about the script it was talked about this
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: is a character piece and it's about these this this
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: group of guys how they're all different and how they're
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: all going through the same thing and how it's affecting
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: each one of them and like scenes if you've seen
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: the movie the scene where they go up into the
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: little town home and they have the two women make
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: them some food and, and Logan also hooks up with
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: the one girl. Um, but that scene was meant to
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: be written as if it could be played out on
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: a stage, like for theater. Um, so it was just, yeah,
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: I guess it was just very different working with a
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: writer director because he already has it and instead of
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: how he wants to shoot it and you just, you
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: just go with that. And, and, uh, it almost kind
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: of makes the process a little bit easier, you know,
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: because there's less cooks in the kitchen, so to speak. Yeah.
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: You know, that would make the process, I, I, you know,
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: I understand clearly what you mean. That would make the
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: process easier. Uh, you know, and you know, I, I
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: sort of imagined too that, you know, when, when, uh,
• 36:31
  Speaker 5: he did see the script, he probably knew, okay, we
• 36:34
  Speaker 5: don't need to add, you know, too many details to
• 36:36
  Speaker 5: this because I already know what it's going to be.
• 36:38
  Speaker 5: If you know what I'm trying, what I'm saying, like
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: he already knew, you know, obviously this is going to
• 36:42
  Speaker 5: be a scene that I've already storyboarded myself. So, you know,
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: we don't need to worry too much about that. And
• 36:48
  Speaker 5: he was, you know, I'm sure, you know, that probably took, okay, well,
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: you know, that's now, this is a little bit easier
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: now because now we don't have to, you know, now
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: we can, there's less things we have to worry about.
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: So if you know what I mean. Yeah. And, and David's,
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: He's a military man himself, so he's so intelligent on
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: all aspects military. Usually there's a fact checker that comes
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: into play, but with David, none was really needed. He
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: knows that stuff like the back of his hand.
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, because the movie actually had one of the last
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: working tiger tanks in the world. Because I think there's
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: two left. I think the British have one. And I
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: think the other one is in a tank museum in Russia.
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: But that was amazing. You were actually able to use
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: an actual tiger tank for the movie.
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I remember shooting days outside of London for that.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: They were just... I mean, you would wake up and
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: you would feel like you were in a war camp. Like,
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: it was crazy. It was a really cool experience.
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: That's either a very good thing or a very bad thing. Like, oh,
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: my God, we're in a war camp.
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, it's funny because when you look back on it,
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: when you work on all these films, you kind of
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: almost have like these different parts of your life that
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: you like you get to experience. And sometimes they're not
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: always good. Sometimes, you know, you're having to work on
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: material that that is maybe a bit depressing or a
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: bit sad and it kind of brings you down. But
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: I can say that for every film that I've ever
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: worked on, I look back on them and they were
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: all amazing learning experiences. No matter if I was extremely
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: happy or extremely down working on the material that I
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: was at the time. But looking back, I mean, nothing
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: but gratitude for all of them.
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: I saw a psychologist, he wrote this article that if
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: you spend more money on experiences than actual things, you're
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: going to be happier. And, you know, making these movies, even,
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: you know, I've been a part of, you know, independent
• 38:47
  Speaker 5: movies and stuff. You know, some were very good, some
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: were bad, mean experiences. And, you know, you just sometimes, though,
• 38:55
  Speaker 5: when you actually get this feeling of just, you know,
• 38:58
  Speaker 5: you immerse yourself in the movie. You just sort of
• 39:00
  Speaker 5: feel like you're part of a team. And you remember
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: that stuff, you know, and I can still look back now,
• 39:05
  Speaker 5: even though some of them were like, you know, five, six,
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: seven years ago, you know. But I mean, still, you know,
• 39:09
  Speaker 5: you look back and you're like, that's actually a pretty
• 39:11
  Speaker 5: damn good memory. I'm glad I did that.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's yeah, you get to have those crazy experiences
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: with the cast and the crew. You go out after
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: a long day or like you kind of get bonded
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: like family, you know, especially on those night shoots when
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: you're going to like four or five in the morning
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: and you didn't start until like eight at night the
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: previous day. Those you get a lot of bonding experience on.
• 39:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely. You know, it's always about, you know, forming
• 39:36
  Speaker 5: that team. That's something I always sort of preach here
• 39:38
  Speaker 5: is about, you know, make sure that the people you
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: can work with or the people that you choose for
• 39:42
  Speaker 5: your team are people that you can work with because,
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: you know... We got to make sure you're able to
• 39:48
  Speaker 5: form as an actual cohesive team. You know, Ron, I
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: know we're sort of running out of time. I had
• 39:55
  Speaker 5: a couple of questions come in from the audience. Would
• 39:57
  Speaker 5: you mind answering a few?
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, sure.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 40:08
  Speaker 5: You know, the first question that came in was, how
• 40:12
  Speaker 5: do you feel about formulas in screenwriting? which I think
• 40:16
  Speaker 5: they're referring to Save the Cat and the sequencing method.
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: I think this. I think if you are a starting writer,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: if you are looking to, quote unquote, break into the industry,
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: then I think your first couple screenplays that you write
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: should be a bit formulaic in that sense because those
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: first couple screenplays that you write are not going to
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: be the screenplays that get you the Oscar. They're not
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: going to be the screenplays that get you the Emmy.
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: What they're going to be is they're going to be
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: writing samples that get you representation. And what representation wants
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: to see from starting out writers is that you're not
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: trying to make these crazy avant-garde films. You know, Bergman
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: didn't make persona until later in his career, you know?
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: So you want to start with formula and then you
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: can break it down, but you, but, I mean, it's,
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: it's a, it's a slippery slope because you can almost
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: say that every film has a formula. Every film has a,
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: you know, first cause of action. Every film has a
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: climax and catharsis and a midpoint, blah, blah, blah. But,
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: you know, stick to it. If you're starting out screenwriter,
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: stick to it because you're going to use that as
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: writing samples to get you other work, to get you representation.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: And then from there you can branch yourself out. Okay.
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: Very cool.
• 41:35
  Speaker 5: Uh, You know, we have another question that came in
• 41:37
  Speaker 5: and that was, which story proved to be the most
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: difficult to make, to make it work for all the
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: characters involved and why?
• 41:45
  Speaker 6: Oh, man.
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's funny because I've worked on a lot
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: of scripts as well that have never even seen the
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: light of day. And there's, I'll say this, there's one
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: that I worked on five years ago. And where is it?
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: Where is it? I thought I had the script. But anyways,
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: I worked on this script five years ago. And now
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: it finally went into production. And we're shooting in Italy
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: next summer. And it's called Enzo Ferrari. And it's the
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: biopic of the man who started Ferrari. And Christian Bale's
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: going to play him. And it's got Naomi Rapice in it.
• 42:45
  Speaker 4: And Michael Mann's directing it. I worked on that script
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: five years ago when one of the original drafts was
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: drafted by Jeb and Jez Butterworth. And that was, man,
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: I remember the characters back then were so entangled and
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: you had to kind of individually pull them apart like
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: sticky spaghetti and figure out what each one's desire was
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: and wanted for the story. And I remember that being
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: probably the most incredibly difficult. Unfortunately, I can't speak too
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: much more about it because the films were shooting next summer.
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: So it's going to be coming out in two years
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: and after that. But I would say that's probably the
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: most one. Out of the other films that have actually
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: come out, probably Wolf. Wolf was kind of crazy because
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: there were so many cogs and pieces to that machine
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: as far as characters go, all centered around Jordan. And
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: there was multiple, multiple drafts of that script. Which, by
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: the way, I just pulled up the original ending. And
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: the original ending was just going to end with the same...
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: A montage that you see at the beginning of the
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: film as him as a young kid with his father.
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: I believe they used a picture at a baseball field.
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: It was that, and then it cuts to Jordan's estate,
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: and he uses a black AMX to cut two lines
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: of coke on an elaborate ox table, and he speaks
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: directly to the camera. Of all my addictions, there was
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: one above that ultimately brought me down. He peels a
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: crisp $ 100 bill off a wad, rolls it up. Looks
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: like he's about to snarf up a line, but Jordan says,
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: I'm not talking about this. I'm talking about this. And
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: Jordan unfurls the $ 100 bill with a snap. So that
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: scene that you see in the beginning of the film,
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: that was also really popular in the trailer, that he's
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: saying the thing that can obliterate your enemies is money.
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: That was actually the original ending of the script. Oh, wow.
• 44:50
  Speaker 5: That's very cool. Well, thank you for that. And this
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: is amazing that I now, you know, now everyone knows
• 44:57
  Speaker 5: that the alternate ending is. So thank you for that, Ron. And,
• 45:01
  Speaker 5: you know, I can imagine Wolf being the toughest because,
• 45:04
  Speaker 5: I mean, there were so many characters in there. And,
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: you know, there was Jonah Hill's character. Um, you know,
• 45:10
  Speaker 5: he played an integral role and, and, and there's just
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: so many other, you know, of Jordan's guys, of his crew,
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: you know, that, that were, I'm sure, you know, I'm sure,
• 45:18
  Speaker 5: you know, when you're, when you're, when you were going
• 45:20
  Speaker 5: through the script that you were like, okay, now we've
• 45:21
  Speaker 5: got to keep track of all these guys, you know?
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: And that was also a film that we were constantly
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: working on, like while it was being shot and there
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: was a lot of, uh, improv and going on on set.
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: So after, you know, after we're done shooting on set,
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: we're watching dailies and we're saying, oh man, this would
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: be great. Cause they were all so funny. I mean,
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: there was so many, like there's probably a good four
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: or five hours of additional scenes that didn't make the
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: film that I am just hoping that they release in
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: like a bonus DVD because the original cut before Marty
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: took the film to his house in New York to
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: cut it down personally, because we were running out of
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: time for the release date. The original cut was like
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: six and a half hours. And it was just like,
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: because there's so much you can kind of play with
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: as far as actors go in those scenes. And we
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: can be Oh, try this, try this. Yeah, do that.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: Do that. And so, yeah, you're that was you're constantly
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: trying to like reel everybody in, in a sense, and
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: keep everybody online towards the goal of the scene. Um,
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: and then you're also having to rewrite like, oh my God,
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: that was hilarious. Let's use this. Like Matthews, um, the,
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: the chest beating line, which has become very famous from it.
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: Like that was, that was all improv. I mean, that
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: was kind of like, Leo was like, let's just shoot it.
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: And Marty was like, okay. And that's just how that
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: played out. So like you're, you're constantly reworking this story
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: while it's, while it's being filmed. If they ever released
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: a six hour cut, that would be, that would be,
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: you know, phenomenal. Um, but, uh, but yeah, maybe one
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: day they will release a six hour cut. Um, you know, there,
• 46:57
  Speaker 4: there's a friend, a guy I know who I'm trying
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: on the podcast. He had a six hour cut of
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: his movie that, uh, he shot it with comedy central
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: and comedy central basically flat out said, we're never going
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: to release a six hour version of this. Uh, you'll
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: get the 90 minute version and that's it. Yeah.
• 47:13
  Speaker 5: Uh, and so the last question that came that, uh,
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: that came in is, um, Do you think a writer
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: can break in slash get past the gatekeepers with a
• 47:24
  Speaker 5: screenplay that doesn't strictly follow the three-act structure?
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: Well, it depends. It depends. First off, it better be
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: a really damn good story. It better be a damn
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: good screenplay. Otherwise, because the gatekeeper are the readers. They're
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: the people that aren't really even paid that much that
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: work as assistants or just readers at the studios. Or agencies.
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: So those are your quote-unquote gatekeepers you gotta get past first.
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: And if you can somehow make the story intriguing early on,
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: and you can get us hooked early on, and keep
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: the story progressing and building, then yeah. It's going to
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: be hard. If it's your first screenplay, if you're trying
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: to break in, I wouldn't recommend doing it. I would
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: recommend just getting a good solid three features and a
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: couple TV show treatments and Bibles under your portfolio that
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: you can use as writing samples to get you the representation.
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: Then you can work on those films, those screenplays that
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: are more avant-garde in the sense that they don't follow
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: a three-act structure. Maybe they follow more Shakespearean five or
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: Mamet four. But also at the same time, I mean,
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: who am I to tell you that you can't? I mean,
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: I didn't listen to anybody. So I suggest, you know,
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: follow your heart in that sense. And shooting and making
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: films is so much less expensive than what it once was. So,
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: you know, maybe you can also shoot it and make
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: it yourself. you know, at the same time.
• 49:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah, very good point, Ron. You know, with the advent
• 49:24
  Speaker 5: of crowdfunding now and, you know, shooting on digital, you know,
• 49:27
  Speaker 5: there's a lot more opportunities now available to filmmakers out there.
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing. I kind of love it. I mean,
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: it gives this freedom to the artists that like they've
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: never had in a long time. Yeah.
• 49:42
  Speaker 5: And, you know, as the various guests I have on here,
• 49:44
  Speaker 5: that's something we discuss is, you know, which route would
• 49:48
  Speaker 5: you take? And, you know, you can choose the route
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: we were just talking about. You could choose the route of,
• 49:52
  Speaker 5: you know, entering a competition and hopefully you place in there.
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: You could go the route of sending it to a studio.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 50:08
  Speaker 5: Hope a reader gives it a.
• 50:10
  Speaker 5: Hope the Reader passes it up the chain of command,
• 50:12
  Speaker 5: so to speak. There's a lot of different factors that
• 50:16
  Speaker 5: play into it. Obviously, if you and I wrote a
• 50:19
  Speaker 5: $ 200 million Pirates of the Caribbean, that's not something that
• 50:23
  Speaker 5: we're going to be able to shoot in our backyard.
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: It's also something that we wouldn't be able to really
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: break a three-act structure from at the same time. Yeah,
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: very true. Studios that dish out that amount of money
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: for those films. Even Wolf. Wolf was just around $ 100 million.
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: million dollar budget. But even still, there's a lot of
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: input from producers and studio execs that are putting their
• 50:44
  Speaker 4: neck out on the line for investing this much in
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: a film. And they're going to want you to follow
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: an almost kind of guaranteed structure in a way.
• 50:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I can totally see what you mean. It's sort
• 50:58
  Speaker 5: of like nobody wants a repeat of Land of the Lost,
• 51:01
  Speaker 5: where I remember when that came out and I remember
• 51:05
  Speaker 5: all the articles on The Hollywood Reporter and And Variety about,
• 51:09
  Speaker 5: you know, the execs who all greenlit that were all canned.
• 51:13
  Speaker 5: And they said, you know, why would you invest all
• 51:14
  Speaker 5: this money into an old TV show from the, what, 70s.
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: 60s, I think? Yeah, it was something in the 60s,
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: I believe.
• 51:23
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's just, you know, so I completely understand
• 51:26
  Speaker 5: what you're saying. You know, just hearing interviews, too, from
• 51:29
  Speaker 5: other directors and writers, you know, just about getting notes
• 51:32
  Speaker 5: about the dailies and getting notes about this. And, you know,
• 51:35
  Speaker 5: what notes do you take? What notes do you just
• 51:37
  Speaker 5: sort of, you know, uh, I think it was, um, uh, I, I,
• 51:42
  Speaker 5: maybe Craig Mazin was, he was saying that one time
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: he got notes and he, you know, he said, okay, well,
• 51:47
  Speaker 5: thank you very much for these. And he, you know, he,
• 51:50
  Speaker 5: he went all about on his day and the next
• 51:52
  Speaker 5: day he got more notes, but it was basically the
• 51:54
  Speaker 5: same notes, but written differently. And he was like, you know,
• 51:57
  Speaker 5: so he's like, okay guys, I'll, I'll take these notes
• 52:00
  Speaker 5: into consideration too. Uh, but, uh, but yeah, you know,
• 52:03
  Speaker 5: there is a lot of money at stake and there's
• 52:04
  Speaker 5: a lot of people with their, their necks on the line, but, um, Yeah. Ron,
• 52:10
  Speaker 5: I know we're pretty much running out of time. I
• 52:14
  Speaker 5: want to say thank you very much for coming on.
• 52:17
  Speaker 5: Is there anything you want to say to put a
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: period at the end of this sentence?
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: Right. If you're a writer, declare yourself a writer and
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: declare yourself the best writer and just write every day.
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: And just go forth with that. And you said earlier
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: about deciding which route to take to go screenplay festival,
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: to go agents. The best route, I think, is to
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: just take all of them. Take all of them, see
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: what options you get back, and then you get to choose.
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: Because if you have one choice, one option, you got nothing.
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: If you got two, you still got nothing. But if
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: you have three options to choose from, you have a choice.
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: So I would say that. I would say it's a
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: very kind of... uh, uh, hardworking industry. There's, you got
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: to think of it from the fact that there are
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: people moving to LA and, uh, from all over the world,
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: trying to compete with their script to get their script made.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: And you, you have to go into that sense where
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: like every day I'm going to commit to this. And
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: sometimes that's going to require you to miss out on
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: other things, uh, but it will pay off in the
• 53:31
  Speaker 4: end if you put the work in now is the
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: best thing I can say.
• 53:35
  Speaker 5: And Ron, I think that's a great way to end
• 53:38
  Speaker 5: this episode of the podcast. Ron, again, I want to
• 53:40
  Speaker 5: say thank you very much for coming on. And where
• 53:43
  Speaker 5: can people find you at online?
• 53:46
  Speaker 4: Mostly just Instagram, Twitter. My handle is at Ron Autour, R-O-N-A-U-T-E-U-R.
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: I don't think I... do much else online. My computer
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: is actually mostly in airplane mode when I'm writing.
• 54:02
  Speaker 5: I will link to all his social media channels in
• 54:05
  Speaker 5: the show notes, everyone. Again, I found Ron on Instagram.
• 54:09
  Speaker 5: That's how we started talking. Ron, again, thanks for coming
• 54:12
  Speaker 5: on and sharing everything with us. I wish you the
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: best with all your future projects.
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: Thank you, Dave. Same to you, man. It was a
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: pleasure talking with you.
• 54:20
  Speaker 5: Thank you very much. Thank you. Ron, again, have a
• 54:22
  Speaker 5: great night, buddy.
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 54:24
  Speaker 5: You too.
• 54:24
  Speaker 4: Take care.
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: Bye-bye.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: head over to the show notes at IndieFilmHustle.com forward slash 875.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: And if you haven't already, please head over to FilmmakingPodcast.com.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: Subscribe and leave a good review.
• 54:43
  Speaker 4: For the show.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: It really helps us out a lot, guys.
• 54:46
  Speaker 5: Thank you again so much for listening, guys.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: As always, keep that hustle going. Keep that dream alive.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at IndieFilmHustle.com.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: That's I-N-D-I-E-F-I-L-M-H-U-S-T-L-E.com.