Latest / Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association / Episode 22: Empowering, Equipping, and Encouraging Women in Ministry in Southern Baptist Churches. SBC Women in Ministry. Complementarian Ministry

Transcript

Episode 22: Empowering, Equipping, and Encouraging Women in Ministry in Southern Baptist Churches. SBC Women in Ministry. Complementarian Ministry · Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association

0:00
Speaker1: All right. Rather than me preview today's episode, let's get our guest,
0:04
Speaker1: Dr. Kathy Smith, to do it. Dr. Kathy?
0:07
Speaker0: We view culture of church from what we see on Sundays.
0:12
Speaker0: And so if people go to church and they don't see women visible anywhere,
0:17
Speaker0: what do you think that that says to the rest of the culture?
0:21
Speaker0: Women aren't important? We hide women or they're not good enough?
0:26
Speaker0: I mean, all kinds of different things, but I never really thought about that.
0:29
Speaker0: And so if we don't have women in visible positions, I think it communicates
0:33
Speaker0: something to the rest of our culture that we don't intend to.
0:36
Speaker0: And there's plenty of ways that women can be seen that aren't going to conflict
0:42
Speaker0: with our way of viewing complementarianism and the specific roles that God has
0:48
Speaker0: for us. There's plenty of ways that women can be seen in different ways.
0:59
Speaker0: And the beautiful Redwoods. The Every Church Flourishing podcast is all about
1:03
Speaker0: helping churches, leaders, and pastors find health, encouragement,
1:07
Speaker0: practical advice, soul care, and resources that work together to build up your
1:11
Speaker0: local fellowship and the broader kingdom of God.
1:14
Speaker0: Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission
1:19
Speaker0: Association, led by Dr. Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry
1:23
Speaker0: and aim for the goal of making every church flourish.
1:26
Speaker1: Hello, everybody, and welcome in to episode number 22 of the Every Church Flourishing Podcast.
1:33
Speaker1: We are a ministry of the Great Commission Association of Churches in California.
1:38
Speaker1: And on today's episode, we're finishing up a great interview with Dr.
1:42
Speaker1: Kathy Smith, who is the Great Commission Association Women in Ministry Ambassador.
1:48
Speaker1: And hey, if you're following the news, this is a timely conversation for us
1:53
Speaker1: as the nation's largest Protestant denomination, the SBC grapples with the role of women in ministry.
2:00
Speaker1: Today, we're going to talk with Dr. Kathy about how pastors should seek to enlist
2:06
Speaker1: qualified and gifted women to serve in leadership roles and invite them to speak
2:11
Speaker1: into sermon topics, schedules, etc.,
2:14
Speaker1: To give them a voice at the decision-making table.
2:17
Speaker1: And we're also going to discuss practical ways to entrust and release women
2:22
Speaker1: into areas of the ministry in the church that are Bible-honoring,
2:27
Speaker1: people-encouraging, and church-building.
2:30
Speaker1: I think you're going to find the conversation to be both very practical,
2:33
Speaker1: but also encouraging and inspiring because Dr.
2:36
Speaker1: Kathy does a great job of pushing pastors to see the women of the church as
2:42
Speaker1: an often tragically untapped reservoir for dynamism and health and flourishing.
2:49
Speaker1: As you will hear, we're going to recap and finish with Dr. Smith's excellent
2:53
Speaker1: list, Seven Biblical Ways to Empower Women in the Church.
2:58
Speaker1: Before we get to any new questions, we do want to finish up that list because
3:03
Speaker1: there was so much meat on the bone in the first five.
3:07
Speaker1: We could barely stop ourselves from talking about it. So I'm eager to hear the next two.
3:12
Speaker2: Yeah, Kathy, tell us, maybe it would be helpful for our audience that may have
3:17
Speaker2: missed last week's episode to hear a recap of those amazing points.
3:23
Speaker2: I'm still thinking about it. Right now I'm processing so much truth that you
3:27
Speaker2: shared with us. So I wanna hear it again.
3:30
Speaker2: What are some of the, you covered five critical areas already and you just mentioned
3:34
Speaker2: two of them as we close the podcast. Yeah, so what are the seven ways that you've
3:39
Speaker2: been talking to us about how we can empower and encourage women leaders in the church?
3:43
Speaker0: Yes, thank you. The first one is to engage them, engage them in conversation
3:48
Speaker0: and discipleship and discipleship opportunities.
3:51
Speaker0: The second is to encourage their gifting and help them to identify their gifts.
3:56
Speaker0: The third is exhort God's calling in their lives and give them opportunities
4:00
Speaker0: to respond to what God is calling them to do.
4:03
Speaker0: And the fourth is equip women for disciple making. And this can include both
4:08
Speaker0: informal and formal training. We talked about GCTI opportunities as well as
4:13
Speaker0: seminary gateway opportunities, but also informal opportunities in the church.
4:18
Speaker0: And the fifth is to establish ministry pathways for women, ways that they can
4:23
Speaker0: actually lead to a serving role in the church.
4:27
Speaker0: And then the last two that we'll get into today is to enlist qualified and gifted
4:32
Speaker0: women to serve in leadership roles, what that looks like.
4:35
Speaker0: And entrusting and releasing women in and from your church.
4:39
Speaker2: Well, maybe before we go any farther, unpack both of those last two a little
4:44
Speaker2: bit to enlist them. What does that look like tangibly?
4:48
Speaker0: Well, specifically, I think it means to invite them in to conversation.
4:52
Speaker0: So we talked about in the last episode about how many,
4:57
Speaker0: only 5% of women plan alongside their pastor and 83% of female leaders are volunteer,
5:04
Speaker0: which often means they're not in staff meetings. They're not in planning meetings.
5:08
Speaker0: So invite them into those spaces.
5:11
Speaker0: Even women that may not have a specific role can be invited into those spaces.
5:17
Speaker0: And one way that I heard of with a friend who is a pastor's wife,
5:21
Speaker0: her husband is the pastor, and he invited her in, which I thought was just amazing.
5:27
Speaker0: But he invited some other women as well to speak into sermon topics.
5:32
Speaker0: I know we were joking earlier in that last episode about sports analogies,
5:36
Speaker0: and I think that is common.
5:38
Speaker0: With pastors, but some women aren't as athletic or as engaged in that.
5:43
Speaker0: So obviously, you know, you want to do that sometimes because there is at least
5:48
Speaker0: probably half the congregation that's men.
5:51
Speaker0: Women can help you think of other illustrations that you can use in addition
5:57
Speaker0: to sports illustrations or other things to kind of really hit home with women.
6:03
Speaker0: And also like different scheduling things as well.
6:07
Speaker0: When events are scheduled, is that a good time for women?
6:10
Speaker0: A lot of events traditionally used to be scheduled during the day for women.
6:15
Speaker0: That assumed that they could get child care or the church provided child care
6:20
Speaker0: or they didn't work outside of the home. But now that doesn't work as well.
6:24
Speaker0: And also, I found that women are traditionally the kind of gatekeepers of the schedule.
6:29
Speaker0: So they kind of understand the rhythms of school.
6:32
Speaker0: They know when certain events are, maybe when there's heavier testing times
6:36
Speaker0: for children, when vacations are.
6:39
Speaker0: And so if women are allowed to speak into the scheduling of the church,
6:43
Speaker0: it kind of helps to alleviate the stress that families feel and also to say,
6:48
Speaker0: you know what, the kids are doing this activity or the youth are doing this activity.
6:52
Speaker0: If we add another activity, it's splitting our family apart.
6:55
Speaker0: Is there a way that we could kind of unify these things and bring them all together?
7:00
Speaker0: And also there are women that are very gifted in administrative things.
7:05
Speaker0: And so you can find ways to bring them into leadership opportunities where they're
7:10
Speaker0: speaking into that in a way that fits
7:12
Speaker0: with your convictions and your church structure is very honoring to the woman, but also
7:18
Speaker0: helps to bring to light things that we might have missed, like even segments
7:23
Speaker0: of people that might not be present at church, special needs communities,
7:27
Speaker0: but also maybe topics that aren't being addressed that women feel would be very important.
7:33
Speaker0: It's a great way to bring women leaders into that role.
7:36
Speaker1: Our commander-in-chief, Valley Baptist Church of Planning, and our next four
7:41
Speaker1: officers in line are all ladies, and they don't let me anywhere near the calendar because they're
7:47
Speaker1: I'm terrible at it. And I can't imagine a church not having ladies at least
7:54
Speaker1: premierly involved in the scheduling of the church. That seems crazy to me.
7:58
Speaker2: Yeah, and I would say to you, I think I became more conscious,
8:02
Speaker2: Kathy, of what you're talking about, enlisting women.
8:06
Speaker2: Like you mentioned the example of sermon topics or sermon illustrations.
8:11
Speaker2: I don't remember which of the women in my church graciously,
8:16
Speaker2: kindly, back I think around 2016 or so said to me, you know,
8:22
Speaker2: you have like these message series.
8:25
Speaker2: I typically would preach through a book of the Bible. And then I would have
8:28
Speaker2: like these shorter sort of break series that might handle a topic or something.
8:33
Speaker2: And I had done one on like great heroes of the faith, right?
8:37
Speaker2: Just sort of a mini series of, you know, eight or nine messages about great heroes of faith.
8:42
Speaker2: And one of the women in my church took courage, because it does take courage
8:47
Speaker2: to say this to a pastor who maybe wasn't always listening well
8:52
Speaker2: and thinking about this well, and came to me and said, you know,
8:55
Speaker2: women, what about the great women of faith?
8:58
Speaker2: When this sister said this, I remember who it was, to be honest,
9:00
Speaker2: but I was so convicted. I was convicted.
9:04
Speaker2: And I was like, oh my gosh, how dare I diminish the word of God?
9:11
Speaker2: And so that coming Easter, we did like a 10-week series that we called Daughters
9:17
Speaker2: of Eve, highlighting women, great women of faith in scripture.
9:22
Speaker2: And I will tell you, it was interesting because I think it was not only one
9:26
Speaker2: of the best received sermon series that I ever taught on by women, but I was like,
9:33
Speaker2: But the men loved it.
9:37
Speaker2: It was very interesting. And I think that there are places where pastors can
9:42
Speaker2: invite women in to not only give that kind of input, but I know many pastors
9:48
Speaker2: practice a time of giving
9:50
Speaker2: content feedback, like, hey, how did this message go? How was it received?
9:56
Speaker2: And I think it would be great to have not just men in the room,
10:00
Speaker2: but to have women in the room, because we do often, perhaps whether through
10:05
Speaker2: illustration or innuendo or through,
10:08
Speaker2: we may miss some implications of what we said, or we just may miss something really important.
10:14
Speaker2: God changed one of my convictions about preaching through a pastor's daughter
10:20
Speaker2: who was a faithful member of one of my churches.
10:23
Speaker2: And unfortunately, unfortunately, it took her getting to a place of deep frustration.
10:29
Speaker2: So one Sunday after church, I saw her weeping.
10:32
Speaker2: Now, in my pastoral ego, I thought, oh, surely the Holy Spirit has used my great
10:39
Speaker2: and profound preaching to move this sister.
10:43
Speaker2: And with great pastoral care, I wanted to come to her and say to her,
10:50
Speaker2: Dear sister, how is the Spirit moving in your life, right?
10:53
Speaker2: Okay, so with this very condescending, foolish attitude, I go to her,
10:59
Speaker2: and she, with gentleness and humility and submission, said, Pastor,
11:05
Speaker2: I'm trying to pay attention to your messages.
11:08
Speaker2: I'm trying to understand the Word of God. I come here to be fed,
11:13
Speaker2: but the way you organize information isn't native to me.
11:17
Speaker2: And could you please at least get some sermon notes and some sermon slides put
11:25
Speaker2: together? And I was brokenhearted.
11:27
Speaker2: I had failed my sheep. And I just want to encourage, if you're a pastor and
11:33
Speaker2: you're listening to this, what Kathy has just said is gold.
11:36
Speaker2: We need to invite women into those critical conversation spaces so that we can
11:43
Speaker2: grow up into the image of Jesus Christ and help them do the same in effective ways.
11:50
Speaker2: And I think our sisters have much to share with us in those realities.
11:56
Speaker2: And enlisting them deliberately is going to be so fruitful. That's just my encouragement.
12:02
Speaker0: And I think the key is that it's both. It's both men and women,
12:06
Speaker0: because we can easily take away, oh, well, we should only have women.
12:09
Speaker0: And that's not what we're trying to get at either. It's both because it's both
12:14
Speaker0: views that are important.
12:15
Speaker0: We need illustrations and topics that really are relevant to men,
12:22
Speaker0: but also to women, to both. And I think another
12:26
Speaker0: thing that Katie Cole and some others have talked about this,
12:29
Speaker0: but not just using women in negative ways.
12:32
Speaker0: Like it's great that you did that conversation or I mean that series on women,
12:39
Speaker0: in the Bible and that you dedicated a certain amount of time and that was good illustrations.
12:43
Speaker0: But sometimes the illustrations that are used in services or sometimes things
12:47
Speaker0: that women hear are only the negative stories of the women in the Bible.
12:52
Speaker0: And so I was really thinking about that when I listened to that podcast with
12:55
Speaker0: Katie Cole is like, we do need to be careful that we don't just tell the negative
13:00
Speaker0: stories of the women in the Bible, but we also cast that positive vision.
13:06
Speaker0: And also just the emotional intelligence that comes a lot of times from women,
13:11
Speaker0: the relational IQ that women bring.
13:14
Speaker0: Sometimes that's even why women are leaving because sometimes in sermons,
13:18
Speaker0: it's unintentionally unrelational.
13:21
Speaker0: And it's not like anyone means for that, but even to say, well,
13:25
Speaker0: I'm not a good counselor or I don't know how to do this. I mean,
13:29
Speaker0: it's one thing to be honest, but it's another thing to not like try to grow
13:33
Speaker0: in skills that would be helpful for the church.
13:36
Speaker0: And I think women maybe are sometimes are easier to see or easier to relate
13:42
Speaker0: in some ways. And so asking them for input like you were talking about,
13:46
Speaker0: Pastor Chris, how it comes across in a message. Women are really good at that as well.
13:51
Speaker0: So those are all really important parts that we just don't ever marginalize
13:55
Speaker0: one side or the other. And we don't want to go far to the other extreme where
13:59
Speaker0: we marginalize men, but it's both.
14:01
Speaker0: It's both men and women, brothers and sisters. So I think now we can go to the
14:07
Speaker0: last point of the entrust and release women in and from your church.
14:12
Speaker0: And so we've talked about the pathways, equipping, exhorting,
14:16
Speaker0: calling out their gifts and including them.
14:19
Speaker0: But then we have to entrust them that what God has given them,
14:24
Speaker0: he will use for his honor and glory. And so that means we allow them.
14:29
Speaker0: To step into those roles. We don't just talk about it or prepare them forever
14:33
Speaker0: for those roles, but we actually entrust them to fulfill those roles and we release them to do that.
14:40
Speaker0: I really was convicted about releasing and entrusting when one of our kids was learning to drive.
14:47
Speaker0: And early on in our marriage, we decided my husband would be the one to teach
14:51
Speaker0: the kids to drive because that is just definitely outside of my skill set.
14:57
Speaker0: And one time though, I went with, as he was teaching one of them,
15:01
Speaker0: and it's obvious when you teach someone to drive, they have to be in the driver's seat.
15:06
Speaker0: But he was teaching from the passenger seat, but our child was in the driver's seat.
15:11
Speaker0: And this child made some mistakes and fortunately nothing happened.
15:16
Speaker0: My husband could only teach from the passenger seat. He couldn't step on the
15:21
Speaker0: brake because we don't have one of those cars like the driver ed cars have.
15:24
Speaker0: He could only do so much, but he was able to walk this child through it and
15:29
Speaker0: to help the child learn through the experience.
15:33
Speaker0: And I think that in leadership, sometimes we want to do all this teaching.
15:36
Speaker0: We want to fill information. We want to give all these ideas,
15:40
Speaker0: but then we want to stay in the driver's seat.
15:42
Speaker0: And we can easily do that in the church. And we never let the person get in the driver's seat.
15:47
Speaker0: And we don't lead them in the beginning. We stay in the passenger seat,
15:51
Speaker0: encouraging them, helping them when they make mistakes.
15:54
Speaker0: We don't cancel them like our culture does just because they made a simple mistake.
15:58
Speaker0: We never learn if we don't make mistakes. And really that has changed how I view equipping.
16:05
Speaker0: And that also through Gateway Seminary has a program where you have a field
16:10
Speaker0: mentor, every student does.
16:11
Speaker0: And I was able to have some students that I was able to mentor.
16:15
Speaker0: And they actually say, we need to give our students a chance to fail because
16:20
Speaker0: of everything they can do, then we haven't taught them anything.
16:24
Speaker0: But we allow them, not setting them up for failure, but allowing them to spread
16:29
Speaker0: their wings with the shielding of us around them.
16:33
Speaker0: And I think that's how a pastor can also help and entrust and equip women and
16:38
Speaker0: release them, but actually let them make some of those hard choices sometimes too.
16:44
Speaker2: And I think entrusting women with meaningful ministry, not simply ministry that
16:51
Speaker2: we've decided is secondary, entrusting them with meaningful ministry. And
16:56
Speaker2: And I'm thinking of the example of the Apostle Paul here.
17:00
Speaker2: And Romans 16 is deeply instructive, I think, here. First off,
17:06
Speaker2: we start off with Romans 16.1.
17:08
Speaker2: Paul has entrusted this letter to a female courier.
17:13
Speaker2: There were certainly many other couriers Paul could have entrusted this to.
17:17
Speaker2: But he's entrusted that majestic book of Romans to Phoebe.
17:23
Speaker2: And he has entrusted her to communicate this.
17:26
Speaker2: And historically, the person that is bringing this letter, she's not simply
17:30
Speaker2: like a mailman. She's not dropping it off, by the way.
17:33
Speaker2: It is the courier, historically, who would read this text.
17:39
Speaker2: So Paul is entrusting this majestic defense of the gospel and its implications to Phoebe.
17:47
Speaker2: And with great likelihood that she was the one who was going to present it to
17:51
Speaker2: the church, which is something maybe shocking.
17:54
Speaker2: And then he immediately, he goes on and he describes her not only as a deaconess,
17:59
Speaker2: that's the Greek word that he uses there of the church at Sincre, but he also calls her
18:06
Speaker2: What some Bibles call a patron.
18:09
Speaker2: Now, it's an interesting word. The word is prostatis, which,
18:11
Speaker2: by the way, means ruler or benefactor.
18:15
Speaker2: She's not a person of insignificance. She has been, whatever that role looked
18:19
Speaker2: like, she has been entrusted with significant ministry, both in her home church.
18:27
Speaker2: And with this message, right? And then he goes on to talk about in Romans 16,
18:33
Speaker2: 3, he right away jumps into just talking about Prisca, you know,
18:37
Speaker2: the diminutive of Priscilla.
18:39
Speaker2: And he says, she is a co-worker, a sunergos in Christ.
18:45
Speaker2: Now that does not sound like he's diminishing her in any way, right?
18:50
Speaker2: Whatever the role looks like, he sees her as a co-worker, someone who's been
18:55
Speaker2: entrusted with this reality, right?
18:58
Speaker2: And of course, it goes on there. But I just think it's interesting.
19:03
Speaker2: He says that, you know, Prisca has risked her life for the gospel.
19:08
Speaker2: And he goes on to say, and not only do I give thanks for her,
19:13
Speaker2: but all the churches give thanks for her.
19:16
Speaker2: And what would it look like for us to empower and encourage women into whatever
19:22
Speaker2: those roles look like where we could say, these are our co-workers, and
19:27
Speaker2: These have been entrusted with meaningful ministry, and these are people for whom we give thanks.
19:35
Speaker2: All of the church gives thanks in substantive and meaningful ways.
19:41
Speaker2: And by the way, if you just keep reading Romans 16, he says,
19:44
Speaker2: you know, greet Mary, and she has worked hard for you.
19:49
Speaker2: Over and over again, And Paul is going out of his way to affirm and entrust
19:55
Speaker2: women leaders in significant ways. And just this one example, this one church.
20:01
Speaker2: And so, yes and amen. And I think we've got to do this work of entrusting earnestly and intentionally.
20:09
Speaker2: And pastors need to do the hard work of thinking through what does it mean to
20:13
Speaker2: entrust meaningful work, substantive
20:16
Speaker2: work to women and looking at ways to empower and encourage them.
20:22
Speaker1: Yeah, so let's move from the realm of kind of theory and exhortation,
20:27
Speaker1: and let's get a little more nuts and bolts about this. And I have a question
20:31
Speaker1: for you and I, Pastor Christopher, but let's start with Kathy.
20:35
Speaker1: What would you say to a female listener in the church today who is essentially,
20:40
Speaker1: she wants to participate, but she doesn't know how to go about it.
20:45
Speaker1: She just comes to the church. Maybe she is a nursery worker or works with the
20:50
Speaker1: children, but she has something deeper in her heart. She desperately wants to minister.
20:55
Speaker1: What would you say to her?
20:57
Speaker1: How practically should she approach that?
21:01
Speaker0: Well, first of all, I think it's important to go back to the great commandments,
21:07
Speaker0: the one of the first great commandment of love God and love people,
21:11
Speaker0: and then the great commission about going and making disciples.
21:15
Speaker0: And really leaning in to what that looks like and leaning into the Father because
21:20
Speaker0: I think we have to get our posture right
21:23
Speaker0: before we serve because we are in a culture that tends to push things to extremes.
21:31
Speaker0: And so we want to make sure that our hearts are in the right place,
21:35
Speaker0: that we are seeking to serve with
21:37
Speaker0: the right motives and also that we are approaching things respectfully.
21:42
Speaker0: And so if we're not loving God and loving people first, then it's going to be
21:46
Speaker0: really hard to extend that in the church. And if we're not understanding the
21:51
Speaker0: Great Commission of making disciples, we're not engaged in that, it's going to be hard.
21:55
Speaker0: Take that to another level. And then when we do that, we check our hearts and
22:00
Speaker0: we check it against the scripture.
22:02
Speaker0: Then we respectfully, I think, ask for ways that we could serve and even share
22:08
Speaker0: and not to be afraid to share where we feel that we're gifted.
22:12
Speaker0: I think sometimes we assume that's boasting, but there's a confidence in Christ
22:17
Speaker0: for giving us the gifts that he has and we should use them.
22:20
Speaker0: So we shouldn't be ashamed to mention what we think that our gifts are.
22:24
Speaker0: And if they truly are our gifts, other people are going to see that as well
22:28
Speaker0: and affirm that. And so I think sometimes we have to take that first step to
22:31
Speaker0: approach our church leadership and
22:34
Speaker0: humbly and respectfully first before the Lord and then our leadership present
22:39
Speaker0: our desires and seeking ways that we can serve and that there is definitely a place.
22:44
Speaker0: I think that is just another encouragement. There is a place to serve.
22:49
Speaker0: There is a place to be a part of building up the kingdom and to not give up
22:54
Speaker0: because sometimes it takes a little practice from the church learning what that
22:58
Speaker0: looks like, but also from us learning how to exhibit and use our gifting.
23:03
Speaker1: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Luke 18, powerful, humble persistence,
23:08
Speaker1: I think is the counsel you are suggesting.
23:11
Speaker1: Don't give up and keep going and do it with humility.
23:15
Speaker1: So Pastor Christopher, what would we say to pastors who are on the other side
23:21
Speaker1: of this issue, wondering how to navigate this area, how to welcome in
23:27
Speaker1: and empower and equip and encourage
23:31
Speaker1: ladies to a greater level of ministry and impact in the church?
23:36
Speaker2: I think my answer always to every one of these questions is always going to
23:40
Speaker2: be some version of Mark 115, repent and believe the good news.
23:44
Speaker2: And I mean that earnestly. I think pastors need to recognize that we approach
23:51
Speaker2: our ministry context and to some measure our scriptural interpretation all of
23:58
Speaker2: us with various lenses and where we have been colored more by
24:04
Speaker2: traditionalized culture than scripture itself. We need to repent.
24:10
Speaker2: We need to see women the way that God sees women.
24:14
Speaker2: And where we have adopted attitudes or even humor that is diminishing or devaluing
24:22
Speaker2: to women, where we have accepted that or tolerated the
24:26
Speaker2: diminishment of women, I think there's only one righteous response.
24:31
Speaker2: It's repentance. Or we can't claim to follow Jesus. We can't claim to love our sisters as ourselves.
24:39
Speaker2: If what we really mean is
24:41
Speaker2: We love the men in our church. So I think it starts with repentance and believing
24:47
Speaker2: the gospel that in Christ Jesus, while this does not negate all gender differentiation
24:54
Speaker2: or role differentiation, that in Christ Jesus, there really is
24:58
Speaker2: neither slave nor free, male nor female, right?
25:02
Speaker2: As Paul writes to the Galatian church. So if we believe that,
25:05
Speaker2: then we need to start with repentance because behavior is always an overflow of the human heart.
25:12
Speaker2: Always. So if we want to change our behavior, we start by examining what are
25:17
Speaker2: my actual beliefs about women?
25:19
Speaker2: What do I believe about women and their role?
25:22
Speaker2: What do I believe about their value? What do I believe about their benefit in
25:27
Speaker2: the church? We take the practical principles that Kathy has so kindly and wisely
25:33
Speaker2: given to us, and we use those as a mirror.
25:36
Speaker2: So that would be my first counsel is repent and ask yourself,
25:40
Speaker2: where are you not believing the good news of Jesus?
25:42
Speaker2: And then to say, now, what am I going to do?
25:46
Speaker2: And maybe you just start with one of the wonderful principles that Kathy shared.
25:50
Speaker2: Maybe you realize I'm looking past women in my church. I'm overlooking them.
25:55
Speaker2: So I need to start with just engaging, having those intentional conversations.
25:59
Speaker2: Get practical. Set yourself a real tangible goal.
26:03
Speaker2: I will have a conversation with a female leader, and I will ask her a meaningful
26:07
Speaker2: question and invite her into a conversation.
26:10
Speaker2: Maybe it's farther down that list and you're looking for something like what
26:15
Speaker2: we were talking about earlier where you're gonna say, hey, I have a reflection
26:18
Speaker2: group on my messages or our elders'
26:20
Speaker2: messages and we're gonna include women intentionally into that room.
26:24
Speaker2: And we're gonna ask them to share honestly and openly about where the message
26:28
Speaker2: may be emotionally missed them or where the illustration just doesn't make sense.
26:33
Speaker2: We're gonna practice humility because God gives grace to the humble, right?
26:38
Speaker2: And then we're gonna find someone in our church this year to empower us.
26:43
Speaker2: So many pastors I know, I will tell you, I spend a lot of time in conversations with pastors.
26:48
Speaker2: And it's interesting to me how many men say to me they can't find any leaders in their church.
26:56
Speaker2: It's a constant mantra to me. And I love my brothers and I go to visit their church.
27:02
Speaker2: And very often I can identify a number of male potential leaders,
27:07
Speaker2: but I'm usually looking around and seeing you've got a dozen women leaders in
27:12
Speaker2: here. What do you mean you don't have leaders?
27:14
Speaker2: Now, pastor the flock that God has placed you.
27:17
Speaker2: That's what Peter says, 1 Peter chapter 5. So if God's given you a congregation
27:21
Speaker2: with 12 women leaders and a couple of weak male leaders, yeah, develop them in.
27:27
Speaker2: You know, develop them into those elder roles, the senior pastor roles or the
27:32
Speaker2: potential church planter roles.
27:34
Speaker2: But if you're failing to shepherd the flock that God has given you as a pastor,
27:40
Speaker2: that's on you. That's a sin.
27:42
Speaker2: You are failing to obey the word of God, to shepherd the flock that God has
27:47
Speaker2: placed you amongst. And so, and I'm preaching to myself here, okay, when I say this.
27:53
Speaker2: So I realize there's both that practical reality, but I also don't want us to
27:58
Speaker2: miss the spiritual reality
28:01
Speaker2: Of dealing with those things and not assuming, as we so often want to,
28:08
Speaker2: that these things are not true.
28:11
Speaker2: That the things that are in the world, the misogyny in the world, the
28:15
Speaker2: the patriarchal systems in the world have not crept their way into the culture
28:21
Speaker2: of the church under the guise of biblicism or under the guise of being biblically faithful.
28:27
Speaker2: We need to grapple with that earnestly and then take these practical lists and
28:33
Speaker2: start engaging on them and expand and explore more.
28:37
Speaker2: So those are just, to me, some root level realities. What say you, Pastor Chase?
28:43
Speaker1: It's a great question. And I'm going to give a very Baptist answer to that question
28:47
Speaker1: that begins with Scripture.
28:49
Speaker1: Because I think if our foundational thinking is grounded in Scripture,
28:55
Speaker1: if we know who we are and we know what we're called to, we'll know how to act.
28:58
Speaker1: So I would say this, again, as a complementarian, you can't over-focus on 1
29:04
Speaker1: Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 and Ephesians 5 and all of those other keystone
29:10
Speaker1: complementarian passages, which are the Word of God and are true.
29:14
Speaker1: But you also need to meditate. If you're a pastor in particular,
29:18
Speaker1: you need to meditate on what we've talked about today, Romans 16.
29:24
Speaker1: So complementarians really focus on, I'm caricaturing, and I don't want to be
29:29
Speaker1: unfair. I think I can caricature my own tribe.
29:33
Speaker1: Sometimes we tend to focus on Ephesians 5.22, maybe minimize a little bit Ephesians 5.25.
29:39
Speaker1: Husbands love your wife as Christ loved the church.
29:42
Speaker1: There's a danger there. And passages like Luke 8, and I want to read Luke 8 really quick.
29:48
Speaker1: Luke 8, verse 8, Jesus was traveling from one town and village to another,
29:53
Speaker1: preaching and telling the good news of the kingdom of God. The 12 were with him.
29:58
Speaker1: And that's how we normally picture it. Jesus and the 12,
30:02
Speaker1: dudes traveling around the countryside doing ministry.
30:06
Speaker1: But Luke is going to expand our view a little bit of what the Jesus team really looks like.
30:12
Speaker1: And in verse two, the 12 were with him and also some women who had been healed
30:18
Speaker1: of evil spirits and sicknesses.
30:20
Speaker1: Mary called Magdalene, seven demons had come out of her, Joanna,
30:23
Speaker1: the wife of Chudsa, Charod, Stuart, Susanna, and many others,
30:30
Speaker1: many others. I looked that up in the Greek. It really does say many others.
30:35
Speaker1: Who were supporting them from their possessions. And I looked that word up in
30:39
Speaker1: the Greek as well, the supporting word.
30:42
Speaker1: And that's an interesting word that I don't know this translated in the best
30:47
Speaker1: way in most of our modern translations. It's the Greek word diakoneo,
30:51
Speaker1: the word we get deacon from. And it means minister and it means serve.
30:56
Speaker1: And specifically the grammar there
30:58
Speaker1: is these women were diakoneo-ing Jesus himself. They were serving him.
31:04
Speaker1: So when you think about the team of Jesus and when you think about the church
31:08
Speaker1: of Jesus, I think that gives us a great microcosm of what's going on.
31:13
Speaker1: It's not a bunch of dudes roaming around doing the Lord's work.
31:17
Speaker1: It's Jesus is the head and this team of saved former sinners who are traveling
31:26
Speaker1: about with Jesus in the first century and in 2026 doing the work of the kingdom.
31:31
Speaker1: And when pastors get both of those things in their mind, all sets of those scriptures,
31:37
Speaker1: what the Bible says about women in ministry, I think they will be ready to
31:43
Speaker1: release in some churches an unreleased, held back force that could just be a
31:51
Speaker1: dynamic key to the church flourishing that we're not seeing, that's untapped.
31:57
Speaker2: You know, I can't wait to get back to Kathy, but something I'm reflecting on
32:01
Speaker2: as I'm listening to your wisdom there, you know, when I'm driving,
32:05
Speaker2: I don't actually look at the guardrails.
32:08
Speaker2: I look at the road. Now, the guardrails are there or the painted lines,
32:12
Speaker2: right? Whichever, right?
32:14
Speaker2: And I think that there's an odd thing when we look at scripture and we're constantly
32:19
Speaker2: focusing in any area of our life on all of the guardrails and rather than the road.
32:28
Speaker2: And I'm not saying we don't acknowledge the guardrails or that we run into the
32:32
Speaker2: guardrails or we try to go through the guardrails, right?
32:37
Speaker2: And there are ways that this shows up in so many forms of
32:41
Speaker2: Scripture where we can get very focused on all the things that we are not to
32:47
Speaker2: do, as if the things we are not to do is the fulfillment of the kingdom of God
32:54
Speaker2: in us. And that is not true.
32:56
Speaker2: We need to be focused on what are the things we are to do. And I think this
33:01
Speaker2: is a good case for us to look at
33:04
Speaker2: Ought we be doing? You pointed this out, Pastor Chase, what does it mean for
33:09
Speaker2: husbands to focus on sacrificing? What is it that God's calling us to do?
33:13
Speaker2: And who is he calling us to be?
33:15
Speaker2: And I think if pastors were to focus more on what does it mean to empower and
33:20
Speaker2: encourage women, I'm not saying without insight as to where there are boundary lines,
33:27
Speaker2: but if I spend all my energy worrying about, have you ever watched,
33:32
Speaker2: Kathy was talking about somebody learning to drive earlier, right?
33:35
Speaker2: If you watch a kid learn to ride a bike and they're always looking at the ground
33:38
Speaker2: because they're afraid they're going to fall, they will never learn to ride a bike well.
33:43
Speaker2: And some people know I used to be a police officer. So one of the things in
33:48
Speaker2: police tactical driving is you are taught to not look to your sides,
33:53
Speaker2: but to look into and through the place you want to drive.
33:58
Speaker2: You're taking your car there because your body will instinctively guide the car to that location.
34:04
Speaker2: And I think when we're so busy looking at the guardrails, we spend our time
34:08
Speaker2: there instead of actually empowering women to do the ministry that God has gifted,
34:14
Speaker2: called, and equipped them for.
34:16
Speaker2: And we're not focused on that right things. We're busy focused on the guardrails.
34:20
Speaker0: It's just a great word. And I think it's such a great thing that we can have
34:25
Speaker0: this opportunity to have these discussions because I do think that women often
34:29
Speaker0: hear, well, you can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this, but then they don't.
34:33
Speaker0: Know what they can do, and then they don't know how to do it.
34:37
Speaker0: And then they don't feel sometimes that they have support in doing that.
34:41
Speaker0: And we know that we are all supposed to be about building up the body and making
34:47
Speaker0: disciples. And I love how the New Living Translation states it in Ephesians 4, 16.
34:54
Speaker0: He says, he makes the whole body fit together perfectly as each part does its own special work.
35:00
Speaker0: It helps the other parts grow so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love.
35:05
Speaker0: And, you know, that's a different translation than we usually use.
35:08
Speaker0: But I think it captures the idea that it takes all pieces of the body of Christ,
35:14
Speaker0: all pieces. And it's not just women that are marginalized. I mean,
35:17
Speaker0: we see special needs community, marginalized, other things. But in our conversation,
35:21
Speaker0: we're talking about men and women.
35:22
Speaker0: But it takes some fitting together and understanding that we each have a special work to do.
35:28
Speaker0: And the work that we do that only brings God glory and honor,
35:31
Speaker0: but it helps the other parts to grow so that it's healthy.
35:35
Speaker0: But the key is it's full of love. And I think that's what it all goes back to.
35:39
Speaker0: Even after the passage in 1 Corinthians 12 about gifts, the next passage is
35:43
Speaker0: on love and what that means.
35:45
Speaker0: And it means nothing if we don't do it with love. And I think we've talked about
35:50
Speaker0: this throughout and that's what it all boils down to, our love for God and our love for people.
35:55
Speaker0: And when we put that as our perspective and we keep our eyes focused on that,
35:59
Speaker0: I think it does move us forward.
36:01
Speaker0: It moves us forward as women to work in our callings and to serve in our gifting,
36:06
Speaker0: but it also moves pastors and other leaders to move forward to help their whole
36:12
Speaker0: church to grow up, to be mature and complete and full of love.
36:16
Speaker2: Yes, and amen.
36:17
Speaker1: And that brings us to our penultimate question that Pastor Christopher gets
36:22
Speaker1: to ask. And I'm a little jealous because I'm really interested in the answer to the question.
36:28
Speaker1: We have flown around it this whole time, but I think ending with this as a focus
36:36
Speaker1: based on the whole theme of our podcast, I think it's going to be really, really important.
36:41
Speaker2: Okay. How are women in the church today underutilized, Kathy?
36:46
Speaker2: And specifically, this is a podcast on church flourishing, and we want to see
36:51
Speaker2: every church flourish. We built this podcast to see every church flourish,
36:55
Speaker2: every leader be equipped.
36:58
Speaker2: And that's our goal. That's our passion behind here.
37:01
Speaker2: So how are women in the church today, would you say, an underutilized key to
37:07
Speaker2: the overall flourishing of the church? And I think you just alluded to it with
37:12
Speaker2: that passage of Scripture.
37:13
Speaker0: Well, I think it is basically a summary of everything we've talked about that,
37:19
Speaker0: they're sometimes just not used at all, or it's kind of they're used in a way
37:24
Speaker0: that's marginalized or set aside.
37:27
Speaker0: And so it is under utilization because they're able to only use a fraction of
37:33
Speaker0: their gifting or a fraction of the energy that the Lord has given them.
37:37
Speaker0: And they're not able to fully develop in some ways because they can be underused
37:44
Speaker0: when they're underdeveloped because they're not getting the training in the churches or they're not,
37:51
Speaker0: If we have a whole segment of a population that's missing at any time,
37:55
Speaker0: then I think we have to ask ourselves, why is this happening?
37:59
Speaker0: And what can we do to help that? And so I think we've talked about so many ways
38:04
Speaker0: that women are underutilized, maybe more ways than we can even expand on, but it primarily goes to
38:13
Speaker0: underutilizing their giftedness and the part that they play in the body of Christ,
38:18
Speaker0: which is the verse that we just shared.
38:20
Speaker0: It is, I think it's a really a big disservice when someone is not able to use
38:26
Speaker0: their gift in the way that God gave it to them.
38:28
Speaker2: And that goes back to the idea you said, I think in the first podcast on this
38:32
Speaker2: topic, the idea of helping women discern gifts and recognize those gifts.
38:39
Speaker2: And then we're moving into the idea of equipping them and enlisting them,
38:44
Speaker2: entrusting them, all of those wonderful things
38:48
Speaker2: that if we're not doing that piece of recognition, walking alongside them,
38:54
Speaker2: then we're not equipping them for it and stuff.
38:56
Speaker2: And then it sort of becomes the self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it, right?
39:00
Speaker0: Yes. And I think another part, too, is just the underutilization of the partnership
39:05
Speaker0: of the co-worker piece that you were talking about, Christopher, earlier.
39:10
Speaker0: Like, it is a partnership together. It's a partnership as the body of Christ.
39:14
Speaker0: It's a partnership as co-workers in the kingdom of God, partnership as brothers and sisters.
39:20
Speaker0: And I do think that piece is definitely underutilized because we are not really
39:25
Speaker0: sure what that looks like or what healthy ways are to do that because there's
39:29
Speaker0: been misuses of relationships and communications.
39:33
Speaker0: And so I think a relearning really what it truly means to love God in that sacrificial way
39:41
Speaker0: and to love as Christ loved the church, posturing ourselves in that way first
39:46
Speaker0: and foremost before the Lord, it changes a lot of things.
39:49
Speaker1: Absolutely. You know, leading a church without women in key places of ministry
39:54
Speaker1: is like flying a four-engine airplane with only two engines.
39:58
Speaker1: See, it's not a sports metaphor.
40:00
Speaker1: It will fly, maybe, but why would you want to do that?
40:04
Speaker1: It's just silly. So let's close out and briefly talk about resources.
40:10
Speaker1: I'm always curious, walk by somebody at the park and I see they're reading a book.
40:14
Speaker1: I want to get close as possible. Like, what are they reading?
40:17
Speaker1: I'm just very curious about what kind of books and resources and podcasts people
40:23
Speaker1: that are guests on this show are currently consuming.
40:27
Speaker1: So, Dr. Kathy, what are the books you're reading right now that are rocking
40:33
Speaker1: your world, the podcasts and the ministry tools that you would recommend to our listeners?
40:38
Speaker0: Well, one that I just read recently that really has been so freeing to me in
40:44
Speaker0: so many ways as a female in ministry is by Tim Keller's wife,
40:49
Speaker0: Kathy Keller. It's Jesus, Justice and Gender Roles.
40:52
Speaker0: It's a very small book. I never heard of it, but someone that I am just kind
40:58
Speaker0: of mentoring, shared that with me.
40:59
Speaker0: And it is really it was a game changer for me. It helped me to be able to distinguish
41:05
Speaker0: some things that I had taken from tradition and culture.
41:08
Speaker0: About gender roles and really understanding the freedom that we have in Christ,
41:13
Speaker0: but the importance of gender roles as well.
41:16
Speaker0: Because sometimes we think of it as the opposite of gender roles being a constricting
41:21
Speaker0: thing, but how that it was actually a really freeing thing in the church. Well, there's so many.
41:26
Speaker0: And then another one is it's not related to male and female roles,
41:31
Speaker0: but it is Instruments in the Redeemer's Hands by Paul David Tripp. And I think when we.
41:37
Speaker0: As any kind of leader, just live in that understanding that we are an ambassador
41:43
Speaker0: for Christ and what that means, and that we are an instrument in his hand,
41:46
Speaker0: that we are not the one using the instruments, but we are his instruments to use.
41:51
Speaker0: It changes also our posture and our perspective. And I love,
41:57
Speaker0: for those that are doing women ministry, this Ministry to Women,
42:01
Speaker0: the Essential Guides for Leading Women in the Local Church by Dr.
42:05
Speaker0: Kelly King is actually at Gateway graduate.
42:08
Speaker0: And she has some great tools on here and about planning ministry,
42:13
Speaker0: partnering, how to use those resources.
42:16
Speaker0: And one of my most favorite podcasts is the Kerry Newhoff Leadership Podcast.
42:21
Speaker0: He brings in lots of different people. They're not always coming from necessarily
42:26
Speaker0: Christian perspectives,
42:28
Speaker0: but he brings in a variety of people, which I think is good to not just surround
42:32
Speaker0: myself with people that are always thinking the same as me, but to see different perspectives.
42:37
Speaker0: And one of his more recent ones was the red flags driving women out of the church
42:41
Speaker0: with Katie Cole was so helpful for wherever he was.
42:45
Speaker0: You are in leadership roles. And I think that was so important.
42:50
Speaker0: So there's so many, many resources, but those are some of them.
42:53
Speaker1: Great. Thank you for that list. Do you guys know the interesting trivia thing about Kathy Keller?
43:00
Speaker1: I don't know. In addition to the fact that she was married to Tim Keller,
43:04
Speaker1: Kathy Keller as a child was pen pals with C.S. Lewis. Really?
43:10
Speaker1: Yeah, no kidding. Wow.
43:13
Speaker0: That is amazing. How would you even get to do that?
43:16
Speaker1: I think C.S. Lewis was great at answering letters. So you wrote him, he would write you back.
43:23
Speaker0: Wow, that's very cool.
43:25
Speaker1: Very cool indeed. Well, thank you, Dr. Kathy Smith. That was fascinating.
43:29
Speaker1: I am going to kick it over to you, Pastor Christopher Cole, for your last words.
43:35
Speaker1: One final 10 out of 10 bit of wisdom from you. The pressure is on.
43:42
Speaker1: What would you say to us as we close out today?
43:44
Speaker2: I think that the good news of Jesus Christ is that God is in the business of
43:52
Speaker2: making new things happen in this world and that he wants to use all his sons
43:57
Speaker2: and daughters to do that.
43:59
Speaker2: And I think that when we don't have that wholehearted vision to
44:04
Speaker2: include everybody in that mission, that we're missing out on a core component
44:11
Speaker2: on seeing his church flourish and seeing communities transformed by the gospel.
44:16
Speaker2: And I think the heart of almost every pastor I know is they want to see the kingdom come.
44:22
Speaker2: And I think that requires us to be intentional about inviting all of the church
44:28
Speaker2: into that shared mission together
44:31
Speaker2: and not trying to exclude or diminish or devalue, but to empower and encourage and bless
44:38
Speaker2: and to focus our ministry there so that together we can see God's kingdom come
44:43
Speaker2: in our own lives and in the world.
44:45
Speaker1: Amen to that. And thank you both for your time.
44:48
Speaker0: Thank you. It's been a great pleasure.
44:50
Speaker1: And thank you, Dr. Smith, for appearing on our show, for your passion to follow
44:55
Speaker1: the Word of God and see the women of the church equipped and released to fruitfully
45:00
Speaker1: function in the joy of their calling.
45:03
Speaker1: I've said it before, say it again today.
45:05
Speaker1: A church that does not have its ladies equipped and engaged in the ministry
45:10
Speaker1: of the kingdom is a church that will not be flourishing.
45:14
Speaker1: Now, before we say goodbye, let's hit a few upcoming events with the GCA,
45:19
Speaker1: a organization of nearly 100 churches in Central California.
45:24
Speaker1: You can check out our website at GCASBC.org. I'll tell you one personal upcoming
45:31
Speaker1: GCA event, and that is that
45:33
Speaker1: this Tuesday, June 16th, Lord willing, Pastor Christopher Cole and I are joined
45:39
Speaker1: by Gateway Seminary Extension Head Dr.
45:42
Speaker1: Cameron Switzer for a wide-ranging discussion at the GCA headquarters in Morgan
45:49
Speaker1: Hill, California that will cover everything from the Nicene Creed to
45:53
Speaker1: Doing theology in the San Francisco Bay Area to Jonathan Edwards to training
45:58
Speaker1: pastors and leaders in the church in the best way possible.
46:02
Speaker1: Those episodes will drop sometime in late June or July.
46:07
Speaker1: And very next up, you're going to hear from our friend Dr. C.J.
46:11
Speaker1: Wan, and we will turn our hearts towards prayer and abiding as being the single
46:17
Speaker1: most crucial element to a church's flourishing or lack of flourishing.
46:24
Speaker1: Please pray for the regional mission project that the GCA is engaging in, taking place July 26 to
46:32
Speaker1: August 1st as Shadow Mountain Community Church from the San Diego area partners
46:38
Speaker1: with our GCA Hispanic churches, FBC
46:41
Speaker1: Gilroy Español, Iglesia Bautista Emanuel, Iglesia Bautista Laurel,
46:47
Speaker1: Iglesia Bautista La Fe, and Iglesia Bautista Arthur Road in and around the Gilroy area.
46:54
Speaker1: Pray that God prepares hearts in the community, blesses the outreach and vacation
46:59
Speaker1: Bible school ministries, and brings many children, youth, and adults to faith in Christ.
47:04
Speaker1: Pray for effective evangelism, strong collaboration between churches,
47:09
Speaker1: spiritual growth among volunteers.
47:11
Speaker1: Lasting fruit that will continue long after the mission team returns home and
47:16
Speaker1: above all, the glory of Jesus and the expansion of his kingdom.
47:21
Speaker1: Also coming up Saturday, August 1st, 2026 at First Baptist Gilroy,
47:27
Speaker1: the garlic capital of the world.
47:30
Speaker1: The Great Commission Association is hosting a 2026 evangelism workshop.
47:35
Speaker1: It is from 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. you can contact our friend, host of the show,
47:41
Speaker1: Chris Cole, at chris.cole at gcasbc.org.
47:48
Speaker1: That's chris.cole at gcasbc.org. And as soon as I saw this, I went to register for it and
47:57
Speaker1: Checked my Google Calendar first because I am schedule disabled and found out
48:02
Speaker1: that our church has vacation Bible school on that day.
48:06
Speaker1: And I'm the missions guy, so I won't be able to make it, which is a huge bummer.
48:11
Speaker1: Well, hey, thanks for listening to the show. If you're interested in partnering
48:16
Speaker1: with us, we would love to hear from you.
48:18
Speaker1: If you've got an upcoming podcast topic or anything like that,
48:22
Speaker1: please do reach out to us at our website, everychurchflourishing.com.
48:27
Speaker1: Good day to you and Godspeed.