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Andrew Jenkins: BBC Traitors Finalist on Surviving Death and Rebuilding Life · The BEYOND Podcast

• 0:00
  Unknown: I let my trauma to find me for probably 24 years.
• 0:05
  Meet Andrew Jenkins. Some of you will know him from
• 0:09
  the Traitors UK season 2 finalist, but what most people
• 0:13
  don't know is that he was pronounced dead at 21 after a
• 0:18
  devastating car crash. I, I don't want to.
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  I, I, I'm an honest person. Goodbye.
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  So I didn't want to. I don't want to manipulate
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  people so things not bad lost myself worth my confidence.
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  You know I I failure. I thought it was a bad thing
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  growing up because you got emotionally audience especially
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  it is upset or anger rather trying to suppression and push
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  it up or something really happens by doing that that makes
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  it stronger and stronger and stronger nearly reconfirm their
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  emotion. So doctors told you at some
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  point as well, from what I've understood, that you wouldn't be
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  able to walk again? Keep working hard, he believes
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  he will achieve anything he likes wants.
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  This is the story of his physical and mental comeback and
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  what it really takes to rebuild a life.
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  Andrew, it's going to be pretty easy to introduce you because
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  everyone's going to know you from The Traitors.
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  And The Traitors is one of the most popular programs on
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  television today, not just in the UK.
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  So that's really kicking off. And people will know you from
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  that, but not most people won't necessarily know your back
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  story. And there is a lot to you and a
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  lot has happened that has affected you and has affected
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  how you lead your life today and how what you're doing out there
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  in the world. You've been impacted by certain
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  things and I want to go through them.
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  And these are things that many will relate to, especially as
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  far as mental health is concerned.
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  But I'm going to let the story unfold as I ask you all these
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  questions because we want to get into that brain of yours and see
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  what happened. Let's start with a very big
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  moment. You were declared dead at 21.
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  Yeah. What happened?
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  I was driving my car and there was five of us in my vehicle
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  altogether. Like my previous partner, my
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  son's mother was in the passenger seat, my best friend
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  and his girlfriend were in the back and the lady I used to work
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  with in the back. I hit a curb on the left hand
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  side. My left hand wheels were
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  passenger side. I flipped the car to the right
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  hand side and I went through the driver's window, through the
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  door window. So my legs were in the foot well
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  under the steering wheel and my top up was outside the car.
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  My head and my arm. As you can see there were
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  dragging on the floor for a couple of 100 yards.
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  When the car stopped sliding, it landed on top of me.
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  So when the fire brigade, the police in the emergency turned
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  up, they told the people in the car that I was dead.
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  I had to have two blood transfusions on the side of the
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  road because I lost 6 pints of blood.
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  You've only got 8 in your body and I lost six of them because I
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  I don't go into too much detail and I had no hair, no skin,
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  nothing on top of my head at all because I was dragging on the
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  floor. I had a big hole in my skull and
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  it all, it all broke my brain. So when the fire gate turned up,
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  I had to lift the car up to get up underneath the car to work on
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  me. So as you can imagine, it was a
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  horrendous I was in a comb with every four weeks of intensive
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  care. My, my gosh.
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  Yeah, it was tough. Did you know when this was?
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  I mean, did you know what was happening to you at any point?
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  Did you, did you? You must have you felt the curb.
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  So at that point you were still with it.
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  So and then and then the lights just went out.
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  I can't remember much about the day, to be honest with you.
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  I can't remember it. So psychologically I, I, the
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  people in the car had it worse than what I did because they saw
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  horrendous things. A previous partner, for example,
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  when the car stopped sliding, she was hanging above me by her
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  seat belt looking down. I was underneath the car and I
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  was half under the car. There's blood everywhere.
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  She she's calling my name and I wasn't answering.
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  The girl sat behind me, directly behind me, said when you were
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  sliding on the tarmac, it was like a horror film.
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  There was all like blood sprayed in my face.
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  It was horrendous. So psychologically, they
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  probably went through a lot worse.
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  My family, my friends went through worse.
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  I just had to get better in a coma.
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  So I had the easy bit, to be honest.
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  But yeah. I don't know about that.
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  I mean, what an awful, awful thing to have lived through.
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  And I suppose it doesn't really. Something like that won't ever
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  leave you. No, it doesn't.
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  And I've only come to terms really the last couple of years.
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  I led my trauma to find me. For probably 24 years my life
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  was lived in a car crash. So yeah, I see the last two
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  years I've really been strong again and using my trauma for
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  good. That would help inspire the
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  people. So doctors told you at some
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  point as well, from what I've understood, that you wouldn't be
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  able to walk again? Yeah, when I was in my coma, my
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  family had called into the hospital on three occasions to
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  say he's not going to make you through the night, come and say
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  goodbye. I got three brothers, two older
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  brothers, one younger brother and my mum and dad.
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  When I started recovering then they got told that from the
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  scans they've done on me, there's there's lots of shadows
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  on my brain, which means dead tissue.
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  So I got severe brain damage. There's this chance I'll never
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  wake up, but if I do wake up, I'm not going to recognize
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  anyone, walk, talk, use my arms and legs ever again to prepare
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  for the worst. So I woke up after 4 weeks.
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  I'm another father standing up my beds.
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  I don't know where I was, what happened.
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  It was quite scary. Lots of people everywhere, tubes
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  everywhere in the hospital and intensive care.
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  So another, you know, and then four days later the doctors came
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  round and said to me, you will never, ever going to walk again.
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  And my first response was, I guarantee I walk to this
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  hospital, my mother said. Really.
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  They literally say to you, you are not going to walk again and
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  you're going, yes I will. My mother said it's embarrassing
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  that the doctor is trying to tell you not going to walk again
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  and you're you're in bed with a tracheop through my throat there
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  tubes coming out of everywhere. You're arguing with this man
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  telling me you are going to walk again and I did.
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  I proved the doctors wrong. Well, the thing about you that I
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  know is that you've got a rugby background, you're a tough
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  cookie, you know, a rugby player is the fact that you would even
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  do rugby and put yourself through that.
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  There's something in the mentality of all rugby players.
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  Was it that maybe that you were calling in on like I can suffer
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  through, I can do it. A lot of his met brains,
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  obviously having two older brothers, having three brothers
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  in total. As you can imagine, the
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  competitive rest of my household was ridiculous and the
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  testosterone and I now know I've done a lot of studying over the
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  last couple of years. I grew up in a toxic masculinity
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  environment so even though I had no emotional support, I suppose
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  growing up or My parents are very old school.
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  My dad is 82 years of age, my mum would have been 80 but she
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  passed away a couple of weeks ago.
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  But I'm. Sorry about that.
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  I know I I saw that on your socials and I'm so sorry.
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  Yeah. It's OK far.
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  Thank you for that. No, it's so upbringing, we call
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  it, It's now known as emotional trauma.
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  I don't have to say that because it makes you sound like
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  something bad happened. Nothing bad happened.
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  My parent and compassionate was my parents now because they
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  don't know how to show their feelings and emotions in their
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  generation didn't do that sort of thing.
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  So my parents never told me they loved me to this day.
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  But when it comes to the physical side of it, because
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  that's what helped me through the accident, being strongly and
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  resilient and determined. So it's as good and bad really.
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  And obviously being a rugby backer, very competitive help
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  too. Yeah, I've got to say, you said
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  toxic masculinity. I feel like, yeah, you're right
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  that in that moment it was the, that's the sort of strength you
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  need. It was just really going to the
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  core and the grit of that and just bringing it out.
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  You need to be tough in a moment like that.
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  You really do. And that competition is a good
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  thing in a moment like that. It was, yeah.
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  So physically, it helped me massively.
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  And like when somebody tells me I can't do something in life,
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  I'll do it. I'll do it 10 times better.
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  So when the doctor said I couldn't walk again, no
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  disrespect. I know people in wheelchairs
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  from different things. But at 21 years of age, being
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  super fit and healthy and sporty, I didn't want to be in a
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  wheelchair to anyone who's of age.
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  So I was determined. I walked.
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  The first time I got into bed was scary.
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  I was two months lying on my back and they finally made me
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  stand up. They literally couldn't find my
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  legs. Really.
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  But like Jelly. It's nothing.
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  I couldn't feel anything that I might.
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  I do a lot of bodybuilding training.
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  I've got lots of, I know I do a lot of fitness.
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  So mind muscle there. I understand that.
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  And the physiotherapist, I'll pick my feet up and put one in
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  front of the other for a few days.
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  I remember to walk. Literally I couldn't remember to
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  walk. So that's crazy.
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  How do you even not remember to walk?
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  How do you, from someone who's physically as strong as you
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  were, you know, a rugby player strong?
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  Like really to not be able to even feel your feet?
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  It's a strange cell. It's a strange feeling.
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  It's really, I was scared, a little bit scared, but I knew I
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  was determined. I think in life when he wants
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  something, wants something bad enough, you see your head and
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  your heart go out there and get it.
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  And there was a lot of people in hospital died round.
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  These injuries weren't that bad, they just give up on life.
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  But I didn't want to give up on life.
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  I was only 21. I had too much to do in life.
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  Gosh. OK, so you couldn't feel your
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  feet, but you started to practice step by step and you
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  started to walk again. When you started walking again
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  those steps, what was going through your mind?
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  How did it feel? Wow, God, there's lots of things
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  going through my mind. There was obviously I was
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  nervous, anxious that I'd never be able to run or never be able
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  to do sport again. Or the walk properties.
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  It was very shaky as you could imagine, the first couple of
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  days. The first couple of weeks it was
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  very shaky. I stand on bars like the wooden
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  bar, like gymnastics. People have the parallel.
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  Bars. And then I finally echo the bars
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  and after a week I stumbled a little bit and yeah, I did.
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  I was determined and I got something I can't explain.
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  Something deep inside me that drives me out like a fire in my
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  belly. I want to be successful.
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  I want to do well in life. And when they told me I couldn't
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  walk again, I never be doubted myself.
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  To be honest. I never be a big headed or
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  anything, but I never, I knew I was going to walk again.
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  I knew deep down in my heart I was going to walk again.
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  That's incredible. You've got a, a sense of a
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  strength of character that's very admirable.
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  It's, it's impressive. You know you didn't, I think.
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  Everybody's got strength inside them.
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  Every single person has got strength in their body.
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  They don't know their guns, so they need to use it.
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  I think every single person in the world has got something
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  inside. It would be brilliant in life.
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  I think anyone watching can can take from this also the power of
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  the mind that just because you've had a diagnosis and
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  because everything looks gloomy, it doesn't necessarily have to
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  be the case. You could have allowed that to
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  be your life and not. Even tried.
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  Yeah, I could have rolled over, felt sorry for myself and lay
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  there, listen to the doctors and give up.
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  But I didn't. And I think a lot of people, our
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  mindset is huge in all the aspects of the world of of life.
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  I think in your career, in your life, in your ment, mental
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  strength and resilience and mindset is so important.
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  That's why I'm saying there's so much more to you than appearing
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  on traitors. So like, you know, I mean, it's
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  fantastic that you did and we'll talk about that.
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  But this is another, this is such another level of, of
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  strength and it's it's inspirational.
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  I mean, watches. Yeah, yeah.
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  There will be people watching us going through things, having
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  some very bad health diagnosis of loved ones with a terrible
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  health diagnosis and feeling lost and feeling like there's no
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  hope. And what you're saying is if you
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  can tap into that mind as much as possible, it's it's going to
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  definitely put you on a different path.
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  Even even the positivity of it all, the mental attitude towards
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  the situation, right? 100% that I said I, I won't be
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  the real person out there. There's too much unicorns and
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  rainbows and fluff out at the moment.
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  And I people like my, like they book these, my talks, my
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  workshops, my they watch my social media because I'm real,
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  I'm authentic. And yeah, life is tough.
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  You are going to face challenge in life.
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  But as long as you're having more petty days and you are bad
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  and take one small step every day and you might go forward 2
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  steps, three steps, you might fall back 1:00.
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  As long as you keep going yourself up, bless yourself or
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  believe in yourself and keep going.
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  That's at the same now in career, in relationships and
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  everything in life. Just keep moving forward like 1%
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  a day trying to get better. Every day I had a big goal, I
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  wanted to walk again, but every day I wanted to do 5 steps, a
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  couple of steps more every single day.
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  And I mounted up there to a huge goal of walking again.
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  Yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy to think, but it is that little one
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  step at a time thing. And you've got to have the
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  patience with yourself and it's OK to fall and it's OK to take
• 13:02
  one step today. And I think, oh, why, why
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  couldn't I take more? Why can't I walk further?
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  But it's OK that it was one step I guess.
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  Yeah, 100% say people, I used to be too hard on myself.
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  I'm so competitive. I used to be so hard on myself
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  and I do lots of talks. I said, people, be kind to
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  yourself. I said, yeah, you might say
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  wait, you know, throw away comments and call yourself name
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  silly and things like that. But after a while you start to
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  believe it. Be kind to yourself and like,
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  you know, don't be hard on yourself, be compassionate on
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  yourself. And you know, we're really doing
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  the best you can in life with the tools that are available to
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  you. So yeah, just take small steps
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  and having good people around you is really good as well and a
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  good sport network ground to help you pick up a feeling it
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  down. So you took these steps until it
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  was a 1200 kilometre trick. Where did you go, What did you
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  do and why? And what message were you
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  sending with this very, very long walk?
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  I walked 1200 kilometres across four countries.
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  I walked the length of Scotland. I started in Ardross Castle.
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  We filmed the trainers right at the top of Scotland, at the top
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  of the Highlands length of Scotland, part of England.
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  I went on a ferry then from Liverpool to Northern Ireland
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  and walked the length of Ireland back over to North Wales and
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  walked the full length of Wales and ended up in Cardiff Castle
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  on 10th November. And I did that for everybody out
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  there who is battling demons, thinks they're not good enough,
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  being told they can't do something in life, lost their
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  confidence, self worth, you know, Coma.
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  I'd say six couple boxes. I worked in a corporate world
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  for years and corporate banking for 18 years in Lloyds.
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  Then I've been in a coma and also I'd never walk again.
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  So I lost my confidence myself, beliefs.
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  I did have people out there struggling to prove to these
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  people. Keep working hard, keep
• 14:44
  believing in yourself. Everybody cheats anything he
• 14:47
  likes to want. I'm I'm basically I'm I'm
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  fruitful, I suppose. Take us with you on that.
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  Walk on to a moment, whatever moment you remember vividly what
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  was going through your mind in that moment.
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  Where were you? What were you doing?
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  What was going through your mind?
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  It was one time I hurt my knee really badly and it was my
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  fault. I didn't do any stretching or I
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  wasn't doing any like any exercise at the end of the day
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  because I was doing, I was probably walking about 40
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  kilometers a day, every day, a marathon a day.
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  That's a lot of walking. That's a lot.
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  I want to go back to my accommodation.
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  I just want to. I just want to relax.
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  To be honest. I should have been stretching,
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  foam rolling, so I walked. I think it was 800 kilometers
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  and I hurt my knee really badly and the team of people who are
• 15:33
  doing my walk with me called Challenge the Wild.
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  The owner wanted to pull me from the pull me from the challenge
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  and he said we have to stop. You've got to think your long
• 15:39
  term health because this could have implications on you.
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  But again, showing my resilience and that's my stubborn side.
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  I said no, I'm not. I'm not quitting.
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  I'll crawl if I'll crawl my hands and knees at the end of
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  the finish line, I'll never give up.
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  I'll never give up at anything in life.
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  And if I believe in something bad enough in life, whatever
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  that is, I'll go after it. I'll get it eventually now.
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  Yeah. Not being big headed anything
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  like so I really wanted, I really believed in.
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  I've achieved it, I've got it and I walk.
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  I knew I was going to finish my walk.
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  I got a hot day. I thought I would have done it,
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  but I wasn't going to stop. But yeah, it was a tough, tough
• 16:11
  day. That was a really tough day.
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  You had a low moment, but again, you stuck through it.
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  Yeah, it's a little bit like that David Golkins guy, you
• 16:18
  know. I don't know if you know him.
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  Do you know him? He was putting photos up of his
• 16:22
  blistered feet. And you think, really?
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  But, you know, I mean, yeah, as you say, if you want it badly
• 16:28
  enough, if it's for a good 'cause you're definitely doing
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  the right thing. Because The thing is, that's the
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  message to people as well. You want them to stick it out
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  that really bad. It's almost like an earthquake
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  that's happening. You know, it's shaking up your
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  life. Just hang in there.
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  Yes again, I'm the right purpose isn't I suppose I I thought all
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  them people out there who were struggling in silence backing
• 16:51
  their mental health. We're not fortunate.
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  You know not they can't walk in wheelchairs.
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  I'm grateful that the fact that I can walk again and when I work
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  with people that have brain injury or it makes me so
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  grateful. I was so close to being like
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  that and not being able to feed myself, being able to walk.
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  So when I do, when I walk, a bit of pain, a couple of hours of
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  pain, a couple of days of pain is worth it for all these people
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  out there doing that, wasting money for all that many people
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  out there not as fortunate as me, I suppose.
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  So that's what kept me going. It kept me driving on.
• 17:17
  OK, Now we're going to go back a little bit more into your past.
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  You, you said that you used to live by people's expectations.
• 17:27
  What? What did you mean by that?
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  I think we all do. I think most people do in this
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  country. And when you're born, you're the
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  truest, most authentic version of yourself.
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  As a child, you're going to inhibitions.
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  You've got no, you've got no self esteem issues, no
• 17:40
  confidence. You're just plain innocent
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  children with blank campuses. And then you get programmed in a
• 17:46
  society to be socially accepted. It's all your parents do it.
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  You know. They'll punish you sometimes
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  just for being yourself. You're running around laughing.
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  They'll send you to your bedroom.
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  They'll take your toy off. You're thinking just being
• 17:57
  myself. And then do a job like your dad,
• 18:01
  do this job like your mum. They can't even be like your
• 18:03
  brother. You compare to your siblings.
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  So then we go to school. We actually get judged some more
• 18:07
  by the teachers. Our self worth starts getting
• 18:10
  valued by the grades we get in schools.
• 18:12
  We always get agreed. Just think you're amazing, very
• 18:15
  eager to get written off so people, you know, attach their
• 18:18
  self worth and value as a human being to their achievements in
• 18:21
  life and the material things in life.
• 18:23
  And that's what I talk about in schools now.
• 18:24
  And it says it's important to try hard to get good things.
• 18:27
  I'm not saying that don't beat yourselves up and think you're a
• 18:29
  bad person. You can achieve it.
• 18:31
  And then we end up then finding a job with the biggest salary
• 18:33
  possible. Relatively at a young age, more
• 18:37
  money means more happiness. Then one day you make up at a
• 18:40
  house, you're in a house, you got a good salary cabinet, a
• 18:42
  bigger salary, you got a good body, a nice house, big car,
• 18:46
  pretty partner. You still?
• 18:48
  I was really miserable. I was that person.
• 18:50
  I look in the Mirror Now and again.
• 18:51
  I think I got everything in life that I was told that would make
• 18:53
  me happy, but I'm still miserable.
• 18:56
  Is that what? So, so, so you had the car, you
• 18:59
  had the house, you had the the, the partner, you know, the
• 19:03
  pretty partner as you put it. You're not happy.
• 19:06
  No every now. And again, I look in the mirror,
• 19:09
  I think I just, I'm not happy. I just get frustrated with
• 19:11
  myself thinking I've got everything in life that I was
• 19:13
  told and make me happy what I was doing.
• 19:15
  I was given to everybody else's expectations, my social circle,
• 19:18
  my parents not doing what I want to do.
• 19:20
  So I'm, you know, people call it a middle life crisis.
• 19:23
  I don't think it is a middle life crisis.
• 19:24
  I think it's an awakening really.
• 19:26
  You realise who the true version is of you.
• 19:28
  I say to people in school now when parents, I say let your
• 19:31
  children live their life and do something they enjoy.
• 19:34
  I know you always what's best for your children.
• 19:35
  I know you always what's best for them, but don't force them
• 19:38
  to do a job because I'll end up in a job for 20-30 years.
• 19:41
  I used to drag myself to a job every day.
• 19:43
  I didn't fulfill me at all. It was good money.
• 19:45
  I hated it, but I was earning good money so it was hard.
• 19:48
  Once you get up to a certain level, it's hard to take a step
• 19:50
  back. It's hard to take a drop back
• 19:51
  then to find somebody you want to do like years ago.
• 19:54
  I didn't ever gone back in salary.
• 19:56
  What was going up. I've never actually looked at a
• 19:59
  job specification or job description and thought to
• 20:01
  myself, well, that's really good.
• 20:03
  It's 510 grand less, a much better job.
• 20:06
  I've never done that. Do you think there's a failure?
• 20:07
  There's a failure going backwards?
• 20:09
  There's no. I wish I'd done a job now, but I
• 20:11
  really fulfilling job. I wanted not to keep my mother
• 20:14
  and father happy. My parents just seen people.
• 20:16
  My son's a bank manager. My son's a bank manager.
• 20:19
  And I used to say that, yeah, who cares?
• 20:21
  Who cares? You're a bank manager.
• 20:23
  It doesn't matter. Well, I mean, there's a lot of
• 20:26
  kids that attend the school with, with my children that
• 20:32
  want, want to be doctors, but they don't really want to be
• 20:35
  doctors. It's the parents have put these
• 20:37
  expectations on. So they're all going to go study
• 20:39
  medicine, but you can kind of tell that their interests are
• 20:42
  more in other areas. You just take 5 minutes speaking
• 20:44
  to them and you know that that's not really, you know, but they
• 20:48
  all that's the right thing to do.
• 20:50
  And, and yes, it's it's it's a people pleasing thing that's
• 20:55
  going on, a society pleasing thing.
• 20:58
  Whereas actually if you stay true to your own talents, you're
• 21:01
  more likely to be successful because that's what you're
• 21:03
  talented in anyway and you're motivated to do that thing.
• 21:06
  So yeah, there's something quite not right in a setup of our
• 21:11
  societal, whatever you want to call it, there's something
• 21:14
  something's off. I know it's You've got to work.
• 21:16
  You've got to live to your values.
• 21:17
  If you've got your values, if you're not living to your
• 21:19
  values, you, you will feel it's uneasy all the time.
• 21:22
  You never, not even your true values would be your true
• 21:25
  authentic self. Being authentic is really
• 21:27
  powerful. You take your mask off, be the
• 21:29
  true version of yourself. And it's scary taking your mask
• 21:31
  off, to be honest. And I can see why people don't
• 21:34
  want to take their mask off because it's scary.
• 21:36
  You feel vulnerable, you feel afraid, you feel like control,
• 21:38
  you feel all these different things.
• 21:40
  Once you do it, you feel much more.
• 21:42
  I know you feel fulfilled and you feel it's like empowering
• 21:46
  action in the true version of you, not some fake personia
• 21:48
  Bernard for all these people. So the people around you get the
• 21:51
  real version in. I've lent in my vulnerable side
• 21:54
  the last couple of years, but I thought 1 was weakness years
• 21:56
  ago, but it's not. It's actually brave and great
• 21:58
  just being vulnerable and strength.
• 22:01
  Do you feel now that you're able to live without that mask?
• 22:06
  Yes, 100%. And then the people around me
• 22:09
  who care about me, who love me, they'll they'll stay with me
• 22:11
  through me. Like growth is uncomfortable, to
• 22:13
  be honest. When you grow, you lose people
• 22:15
  by the wayside. People get jealous because
• 22:17
  you're growing, you're you're creating every company.
• 22:19
  It's only growing. I think it is highlights.
• 22:21
  It highlights an alien in them. There's a weakness in them.
• 22:23
  So I've lost and lost people, but I don't really bother with
• 22:27
  they're old friends anymore. So I I still see them, don't get
• 22:29
  me wrong, but I'm different. Change them.
• 22:31
  And when he speaks growth. I'm quite lonely, Nice, but I
• 22:34
  love it. I'm growing more now in the last
• 22:36
  couple of years I have been 45 years.
• 22:38
  More it's the rugby competitive mentality in you.
• 22:41
  I'm telling you, you can never you you can stop playing rugby,
• 22:44
  but you won't change that that mentality.
• 22:46
  OK. So before traitors you, you, you
• 22:49
  touched on this, but you had this career in banking and
• 22:52
  insurance. So what what was the decision
• 22:56
  you made to stop that? Like what step away from that
• 22:59
  security, you know, because it is, it's financial security and
• 23:03
  then you're going, I'm going to take a risk.
• 23:05
  What what happened? I still ask myself that
• 23:08
  question. Yeah, yeah, look.
• 23:11
  To be honest, I went on the trainers and I thought I was
• 23:14
  going to carry on working with insurance and do some talks on
• 23:17
  the side, a bit of podcast, whatever.
• 23:19
  But I was so busy after the show, people were contacting me
• 23:21
  constantly contacting me, saying come and talk here, can you come
• 23:24
  and do this? Come and do that is my story.
• 23:27
  Even though it doesn't have to be a car accident, but the
• 23:29
  consequences and things afterwards are quite relatable
• 23:31
  to millions in this country. Lost myself worth my confidence,
• 23:35
  You know, I failure. I thought it was a bad thing
• 23:38
  growing up. I wouldn't do anything unless I
• 23:40
  knew I was going to win or be successful happening.
• 23:41
  Yeah, workshops, failures are a bad thing.
• 23:45
  So after the show, nobody's office coming to me.
• 23:47
  So I was trying to work seven days a week.
• 23:49
  I was working 30 hours from making my day job.
• 23:52
  But I was also lying to my boss at work all the time and I say
• 23:55
  to my boss in work, I'm off to see a customer numbers,
• 23:58
  insurance policies due for renewal.
• 24:00
  I go off into my podcast on my keynote tour because my life is
• 24:04
  all over social media on LinkedIn or Instagram.
• 24:07
  Within about two hours or three hours of leaving my office, all
• 24:10
  over LinkedIn say welcome Andrew from the traders through his
• 24:13
  podcast or I go back to my office and later on the next.
• 24:17
  What's that? Yes.
• 24:20
  No. He said The thing is the big
• 24:22
  bosses in London, along with the companies, they're watching you
• 24:25
  like a hawk and they're challenging him, saying what's
• 24:28
  he doing? He's so busy doing his talks,
• 24:31
  what income does he bring into the business?
• 24:32
  And to be honest, I wasn't doing anything.
• 24:35
  I was, I was keeping on top of my renewals, doing lots of my
• 24:37
  renewals, keep my existing customers happy, but it wasn't
• 24:39
  really doing any good business at all.
• 24:41
  So I'm a good person, good morals and values.
• 24:43
  And I said to my boss, I got to leave.
• 24:45
  I said I'm robbing a salary off at the moment.
• 24:47
  I said it doesn't sit back to me and he's a good guy, he's a
• 24:50
  brilliant guy and he said yeah, we understand.
• 24:52
  So you don't have to work your three months notice because I
• 24:54
  have 3 months notice in my contract because I'm a senior.
• 24:57
  So I left them, I pay there. So I left, it's a massive gamble
• 25:00
  and left it. Nothing and nothing set up.
• 25:02
  Nothing, nothing really. And I'm still trying to set it
• 25:05
  up now. I'm still, I'm still doing
• 25:06
  things now. I should have been doing it a
• 25:07
  year ago but I let everybody else from my life in the last 16
• 25:11
  months rather than trying to do it myself, being organised and
• 25:13
  structured. So I've been very reactive, very
• 25:16
  proactive. Well, you started to to really
• 25:19
  to work for yourself that that's what you started.
• 25:22
  That's how you, that's how you did it.
• 25:24
  You started to invest the time into, instead of making the
• 25:27
  money for that client, for that company, you invested it in
• 25:32
  yourself into your social media presence, into your own brand.
• 25:35
  And you have to start somewhere. And it is a lot of work.
• 25:37
  It is time and all of that goes into it.
• 25:40
  So you just, yeah, you outgrew. It's scary, don't get me wrong.
• 25:45
  Yeah, I've always worked all my life.
• 25:47
  I've worked in banking for 18 years, insurance and so all my
• 25:50
  life I've got into work, used their systems, used their
• 25:53
  marketing, used their CRM. You don't have to think of
• 25:55
  anything, just my customers. Now it's all on me.
• 25:58
  It's not. It doesn't like me inside.
• 26:00
  I don't enjoy it. I enjoy talking to people,
• 26:03
  building relationships, keeping in relationships, meeting
• 26:06
  people. When it comes to all the back
• 26:07
  office stuff, I'd rather like. I sit in the house sometimes for
• 26:11
  an hour or two and I think I can't do this.
• 26:13
  So bored now I end up have a coffee and a meeting with
• 26:15
  somebody. So I got to start leaning
• 26:18
  uncomfortable. I don't pay something to do it.
• 26:20
  I'm going what am I doing to pay someone?
• 26:22
  These things cost money. I left my job, I've been into
• 26:26
  nothing. I had no time to save any money
• 26:27
  because I wasn't planning my job.
• 26:28
  So I didn't have six months to plan things.
• 26:31
  I just left the same day. So I had no chance to really
• 26:33
  save any money on one side. I didn't win the things either.
• 26:37
  So people think you're only being on the telly or loan of
• 26:39
  money because I didn't win the TV show.
• 26:41
  I was on it. So I lost it in the final.
• 26:43
  So it's been, it's been a massive challenge.
• 26:45
  Now it's it's going really bad over the last couple of months.
• 26:48
  It is a challenge. It's definitely a brave move.
• 26:51
  I'll, I'll, I'll give you that. Crazy.
• 26:53
  Crazy. I don't know.
• 26:54
  Crazy or brave, I don't know. Yeah, both probably.
• 26:58
  So let's talk a little bit about if it's OK with you, about your
• 27:05
  your family. So you said you've never been
• 27:08
  your parents never told you they loved you.
• 27:10
  You know that that's quite a bold statement to make.
• 27:13
  What was your relationship like with your dad?
• 27:18
  It's got me. I got on well with my parents.
• 27:19
  My parents, the way they showed their love to me and my three
• 27:22
  brothers was burning a roof over my head, clothes on my back and
• 27:25
  food on the table. It's a generation they come
• 27:27
  from. Yeah, very compassionable to
• 27:29
  their parents now, because, you know, my, my dad's 82, for
• 27:32
  example, they would have been 80.
• 27:33
  So they're really old school. My parents have never driven a
• 27:36
  car. They've never sat near a plane.
• 27:38
  They have the same meals every night at the same times.
• 27:41
  They watch the same things on television.
• 27:43
  The creatures are habits with a fixed mindset.
• 27:45
  So I'm compassionate as my parents because they grow how to
• 27:48
  show their feelings and emotions.
• 27:49
  Like my mother and father. I've read a lot of love
• 27:52
  languages. My father's love language is
• 27:54
  time. So he gave up his time to watch
• 27:56
  UK in rugby. Wouldn't miss any of my matches,
• 27:59
  wouldn't miss my Britney on the touchline, standing on the side
• 28:01
  of the field in the rain, snow, the wind, wouldn't miss again.
• 28:05
  That was his wish. I love that.
• 28:07
  I love that. My mother's acts of service.
• 28:10
  So when I left home at 22 years of age, I'd never used the
• 28:13
  washing machine, I'd never used the cooker, never used an iron.
• 28:16
  My mother did everything for us when she when she was, she was
• 28:20
  really intelligent. She left grammar school and she
• 28:23
  had a job in passion of Westminster Bank and she was one
• 28:25
  of the only women in the country to work back then.
• 28:28
  It was a real male dominated industry.
• 28:30
  She had a good job in National Westminster Bank.
• 28:32
  But as soon as my oldest brother Simon was born, she gave her
• 28:35
  birth career to be most classed as an old fashioned housewife.
• 28:38
  And so my mother did everything for her life and her sons and
• 28:41
  my. Dad.
• 28:42
  My three brothers were the same. We left home like when I when I
• 28:45
  was there. She everything for us.
• 28:47
  My mother passed away a few weeks ago.
• 28:49
  My dad really struggles because he's never had to do anything
• 28:52
  all his life. No, he's got to try and do it
• 28:54
  all and he gets really frustrated at the moment because
• 28:57
  the mother don't realise Jack what she did for us.
• 29:00
  Does anybody leave hope and realise and appreciate what she
• 29:02
  did for us? That's incredible.
• 29:04
  It's so nice that you see that, you know that you appreciate
• 29:07
  that. A good relationship with a good
• 29:09
  upbringing. I knew, I knew we were loved.
• 29:11
  You could tell it's a nice warm hope and everything.
• 29:13
  But yeah, it was just, it was just the emotional side of it.
• 29:15
  And I, I grew up exactly. I think not being able to show
• 29:17
  any feelings and emotions. I thought if you show feelings
• 29:20
  and emotions, I made you weak. I thought men do show feelings
• 29:22
  and emotions. I was a rugby boy, in person,
• 29:26
  doorman, security, close protection and then all these
• 29:29
  toxic massively jobs thinking you can't show feelings and
• 29:33
  emotions after my accident. They didn't speak to anybody
• 29:35
  after the accident. They offered me cancer, but I
• 29:38
  refused it because I thought I was going to see somebody in a
• 29:40
  white coat who was going to judge me, psychoanalyze me, and
• 29:44
  I refused. I said I'm not going to see that
• 29:45
  either. I'm I've said he had textbook
• 29:47
  for five years either. I'm feeling like I refused
• 29:50
  cancer therapy. I didn't speak to anybody for
• 29:52
  years. You know what?
• 29:54
  I went to a school in in South Africa and in Graham's town and
• 30:00
  it was quite a British school. It had like a British system
• 30:04
  upbringing. And something bad happened with
• 30:07
  one of my friends and we were all sad and we started crying
• 30:12
  and, you know, it was very emotional and all that.
• 30:14
  And then the lady who was in in charge, she came up to us and
• 30:19
  she was like, listen, come here, come here.
• 30:21
  And we're like, OK, so. And then she took us to the side
• 30:24
  to her like the headquarters, whatever you want to call it,
• 30:27
  and close the door behind and said, look, you can be emotional
• 30:31
  here, deal with it. And when you've finished, then
• 30:34
  you can come out. And I just thought, wow, I'd
• 30:39
  never seen anything like, you know, I just, I'm still not sure
• 30:44
  how I feel about it till this day.
• 30:45
  Because in a way I understand that you don't want to inflict
• 30:49
  your drama onto others or whatever.
• 30:51
  But then again, what's wrong with with emotion?
• 30:55
  Same thing. I tried to hug my mum, you know,
• 30:57
  when she hadn't seen her for a long time.
• 30:59
  She walked into the school and I dived onto her and I squeezed
• 31:04
  the living daylights out of her because I'm just so happy to see
• 31:06
  her. And again, in the warden we
• 31:09
  don't do that. And my mum sort of looked and
• 31:11
  she was oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
• 31:13
  She didn't know that it was my mum.
• 31:14
  And I thought. Yeah.
• 31:15
  It's a bit. What'd you, what'd you say to
• 31:18
  that? Yeah.
• 31:20
  It's crazy and I suppose that happens years ago and I suppose
• 31:23
  for men, especially in this country, it's all from a very
• 31:25
  young age. It's suppress your feelings and
• 31:27
  emotions as a young boy, you know, don't cry, babies cry,
• 31:30
  girls cry, man. Absolutely young age where most
• 31:33
  men at the soul suppress your feelings and emotions.
• 31:36
  So you build all these emotions insight they bottled up the
• 31:39
  2030, forty, 50-60 years. Sometimes they never lead into
• 31:43
  their emotions on their vulnerable sides.
• 31:45
  So they've always pent up emotions inside them.
• 31:47
  And it comes out in other ways. Then it could be, you know,
• 31:50
  drugs, it could be different ways.
• 31:52
  It comes out in other ways as sex, drugs or something.
• 31:54
  And it comes out in violence, hunger, frustration, because
• 31:57
  they're building up these emotions and they've learned
• 31:59
  over the last couple of years that if you've got emotional
• 32:02
  body, especially if it's upset or anger, but rather than trying
• 32:06
  to suppress it and push it outwards, I'm sure normally
• 32:08
  happens by doing that, that makes it more stronger and
• 32:11
  stronger and stronger and it reconfirms our emotion then.
• 32:15
  So you have to deal it rather than suppressing it, try and
• 32:18
  lean into it and deal with it. Otherwise it'll keep on coming
• 32:20
  back again now and again. So when you're upset, for
• 32:23
  example, try and think, I always think to myself now, what's
• 32:26
  causing that? It's different from my
• 32:27
  childhood. What's causing that?
• 32:29
  Are you trying to ignore it and it down?
• 32:31
  Push it down. I'll try and lean into it.
• 32:33
  It's uncomfortable. Sometimes you gotta find out.
• 32:36
  You're lucky yourself in secrets and everything, but you lean
• 32:39
  into it. How much, how much carbon you
• 32:41
  start? Lean into your uncomfortable
• 32:43
  emotions. I like it, lean into it.
• 32:45
  Yeah, rather than try to push it away, I.
• 32:47
  Like it. Look at it as if you know.
• 32:49
  Just accept it. Don't rushing under the carpet
• 32:52
  is what you're saying. Really.
• 32:54
  Yeah, most of the time it's normally something that's
• 32:56
  happened from your childhood. You're in a child, you've got
• 32:58
  some people that are in a child and normally it's something that
• 33:00
  happened from when you were 567 years of age.
• 33:02
  Someone has said something to you, done something, said
• 33:04
  something, a trauma like we got in a I used to, like the child
• 33:08
  used to come up on a regular basis.
• 33:10
  In the last couple years I really I've learned it working
• 33:13
  and we're healing my inner child, I suppose.
• 33:17
  OK. Then this opportunity comes
• 33:20
  along for you to be on traitors. Why did you do it?
• 33:25
  I asked myself that question, why did I do that?
• 33:29
  I actually had a message on my Instagram page I didn't apply
• 33:31
  for initially. I would never apply for things
• 33:33
  like that. I don't really watch reality TV.
• 33:35
  So I had a message on my Instagram from a casting
• 33:37
  director saying do you find do you want to apply for the show?
• 33:40
  Your story looks incredible. You seem like a nice person.
• 33:42
  You want to apply for the show. At first of all, I thought
• 33:45
  somebody actually think it was serious.
• 33:47
  And then I thought to myself, I can get a great profile and a
• 33:51
  platform, the connections I've got now to do what I want to do
• 33:53
  now. So I wanted to start talking
• 33:55
  about, well-being a mental health before the TV show, but I
• 33:57
  only had a couple of 100 followers.
• 33:59
  I didn't have any connections. So that's genuinely the only
• 34:02
  reason I'm on that show. I don't care.
• 34:04
  Don't be recognized in the street.
• 34:05
  I'm a humble man. I'll never cheat the person I am
• 34:08
  regardless of how successful I become, or I'll never cheat the
• 34:11
  person I am. The only reason on that show is
• 34:13
  I got a platform to do what I do.
• 34:14
  Now all I want to do is lie on my deathbed, close my eyes,
• 34:18
  don't know any difference in this planet.
• 34:20
  All I want to do is help people. I don't be able to suffer in
• 34:22
  silence, guided for many many years.
• 34:23
  I want to help give back to people.
• 34:25
  I will show people you can't overcome lots of things in life
• 34:28
  and you have a good life. This definitely comes across
• 34:31
  from you. I can feel, I know we're we're
• 34:34
  filming this remotely, but I can feel how much you want this.
• 34:38
  I can feel it that you want to help people.
• 34:40
  It's it's, you know, the thing of the weird thing what they've
• 34:43
  done with you and I don't know, it's, it's quite clever.
• 34:46
  But really they've you've you are very authentic.
• 34:50
  They've put you on traitors and they've put you in as a faithful
• 34:54
  initially, which is understandable because of the
• 34:58
  authentic and completely transparent, honest person you
• 35:02
  are. But then there's a twist and
• 35:06
  then you become a traitor. How was that for you?
• 35:12
  If you'd seen the show, you'll see no, I wasn't very.
• 35:14
  I wasn't very comfortable with that.
• 35:15
  I didn't enjoy it at. All but you had to do it so.
• 35:19
  Because I, Paul and Harry were the traitors at the time.
• 35:21
  They said if you didn't join us, we were going to murder you the
• 35:24
  next. Actually you were such a strong
• 35:25
  faithful, nobody was booked you through the wrong table.
• 35:28
  So you were a threat to us. So they said the only way we're
• 35:30
  going to do it either joining us or we're going to murder you.
• 35:32
  So if I didn't join them that day, the next day I would have
• 35:35
  gone another chop. I've been gone.
• 35:37
  So yeah, I didn't want to do it. But at the end of the day, I
• 35:40
  kept telling I'm not a stupid guy.
• 35:42
  I kept my feet on the ground and I thought, it's just a game.
• 35:45
  The people outside of this game would know me, my family, my
• 35:47
  close friends, they know what person like me.
• 35:50
  They're not not really a liar or horrible person.
• 35:52
  You know people around the country watch you might have an
• 35:54
  opinion. They don't know me.
• 35:56
  The people who really care about who know me or I care about,
• 35:59
  they know the real person and like I'm a very competitive
• 36:01
  sportsman. It would have been like quitting
• 36:05
  at half time and not finishing the game for the final whistle.
• 36:07
  My brothers were gone mad saying give up a game before the final
• 36:10
  whistle. We always told to play until the
• 36:12
  end of the game, so the final whistle.
• 36:14
  So I thought I'll change to a traitor and carry on playing.
• 36:17
  But it was awkward the first day or two, then I got used to it.
• 36:21
  Through your answer, it's very interesting the way you've
• 36:24
  answered that because it shows me that you had an internal
• 36:31
  struggle and you had to justify becoming a traitor and doing
• 36:37
  these things and, and, and making it OK in order to be able
• 36:42
  to do it. So there there was an internal
• 36:45
  struggle there mentally. Massive.
• 36:47
  Yeah, I was on the telly. It took me a couple of minutes
• 36:49
  to make the decision. Probably about 10 for 15
• 36:52
  minutes. Actually, it didn't seem that
• 36:53
  long on the television, but I'm sat in that room for about 15 to
• 36:57
  20 minutes thinking to myself, I don't want to.
• 37:00
  I'm an honest person, Good parties and balls.
• 37:02
  I didn't want to. I didn't want to manipulate
• 37:04
  people, twist things and that. But yeah, I made the decision at
• 37:07
  the end. It was the first day or two.
• 37:08
  It was quite obvious on the telly that I was a traitor
• 37:10
  because I hated it, because I was paranoid that every when
• 37:12
  you're talking about me. But after a couple of days I
• 37:14
  just got used. In the moments when you were
• 37:18
  faithful, that was pretty easy, wasn't it?
• 37:21
  You were, you were able to be completely true to yourself and
• 37:24
  that's all fine. In the moments where you had to
• 37:27
  be a traitor and you weren't being true to the others
• 37:30
  deliberately, what what effect was this having on you?
• 37:38
  You know, as in terms of being an authentic person, which is
• 37:41
  very important to you? To be honest, if you watched the
• 37:45
  show, I I didn't really have to do much manipulation or
• 37:47
  lighting. To be honest, I just went along
• 37:48
  with Harry, so I just didn't want.
• 37:51
  True, Harry. I lied.
• 37:54
  I made one lie to Ross. I felt really bad inside.
• 37:57
  My insides are twisting and turning and I'm telling lot Ross
• 38:00
  to his face at the round table. He's lying, but I know he deep
• 38:03
  down he's telling the truth internally didn't sit right to
• 38:06
  me at all. And Ross went mad when I said
• 38:08
  they were the lucid at the round table and Ross said you said the
• 38:11
  Lucifer. I didn't say that word.
• 38:12
  Don't even know what it means. And I knew I knew exactly what
• 38:15
  it meant and that it didn't feel good, didn't didn't sit good
• 38:18
  with me at all. But that was only real time.
• 38:19
  I actually have to lie to anyone.
• 38:23
  What did you learn about human nature from that experience that
• 38:28
  possibly surprised you? I couldn't believe the sheep.
• 38:33
  How much like when you watch all the series, it's like a herd
• 38:36
  mentality. It's like a pack mentality.
• 38:38
  You know, some people to jump on the bandwagon and you know,
• 38:41
  people just like the see the celebrity versions, not Teddy.
• 38:44
  Now people just jump on the bandwagon.
• 38:46
  They follow the herds. They're too scared to, you know,
• 38:48
  stand up being authentic and go against everyone else.
• 38:51
  So they they all just follow each other to be honest.
• 38:53
  They're like sheep like sheep. I suppose so.
• 38:55
  And every series of the traitors is exactly the same.
• 38:57
  And that's why the traitors are always winning the first few
• 39:00
  weeks. They're winning by landslide by
• 39:02
  what, 71? Normally they're winning by if
• 39:04
  nobody is even have to put their head above the parapet and just
• 39:07
  be honest and authentic and call a traitor out again, it's it's
• 39:11
  an awkward game to start calling traitors out.
• 39:13
  The only in the game you're going to get murdered.
• 39:15
  It's a really difficult game to play and do be honest and true
• 39:18
  to yourself and be honest and tell call about the traitors.
• 39:21
  On the other hand, then no, if you start calling the traitors
• 39:24
  out, you're going to get murdered.
• 39:25
  So it it depends really how you want to play that game.
• 39:28
  If you want to get in the game, stay in the game as long as you
• 39:29
  wanted to, like I wanted to try and win it.
• 39:32
  Or you try to be brave and honest.
• 39:34
  Be true to yourself from the very start.
• 39:36
  I mean, there's parallels to The Apprentice which I was on, which
• 39:39
  is you, you did really well in the beginning keeping a low
• 39:43
  profile because you definitely don't want to be project manager
• 39:46
  in week one of The Apprentice either.
• 39:47
  There, there are ways to deal with these games, but what
• 39:50
  people don't realise about reality TV is that it is
• 39:54
  pressure. It's not easy.
• 39:57
  I mean, I, I, I didn't find it easy, did you?
• 40:00
  It's not easy. I'm just quite lucky because I
• 40:02
  kept my game plan when I went in there was to get on, get on with
• 40:05
  it. I'm a nice person.
• 40:06
  I got on with all the other contestants.
• 40:08
  I was quite friendly. I didn't say too much.
• 40:10
  Can you say too much? You get murdered.
• 40:12
  If you want to say nothing at all because you're too quiet,
• 40:14
  you'll get suspicious. So I just said enough, you take
• 40:17
  over. My game plan was under the
• 40:19
  radar, like to the very end, and then I was going to make my move
• 40:22
  at the very end. But Ross best my cancel about
• 40:24
  the round table. So I was lucky.
• 40:26
  I never got really under any pressure at the round table.
• 40:29
  Only once accused the wrong table.
• 40:31
  My answer that was fine. Some people, the wrong table
• 40:34
  actually crumble under the pressure.
• 40:36
  They got accused and they're arguing and it is a massive
• 40:39
  pressure situation when you're being accused of something you
• 40:43
  haven't done, he normalized. It's horrible.
• 40:46
  Yeah, but at the round table, you've got six or seven people
• 40:49
  against you. It's even worse.
• 40:51
  They're all firing questions at you, and you sat there.
• 40:53
  I've seen people just breaking crumble up in front of my eyes.
• 40:56
  I'm so sorry for them. And you know, when you talk
• 40:58
  about that sheep mentality, it's also a little bit about who can
• 41:02
  be the sacrificial lamb here. So who's weak?
• 41:06
  It's sniffing out the weak party pin in a label on them.
• 41:09
  And this is exactly the same with The Apprentice, by the way.
• 41:13
  You almost sense blood. You know the sharks are circling
• 41:15
  around. So yes, it's cheap, but it's
• 41:17
  also sharks at the same time. They sniff the blood, you're
• 41:20
  weak, and then they attack and they bring that sacrificial lamb
• 41:24
  down and then it's like we're safe.
• 41:26
  Bye, bye to you. Yeah, that's very true.
• 41:28
  Actually. That's good.
• 41:29
  Yeah, it's a. Jungle out there.
• 41:31
  There is a jungle out there. There is there are lots of nice
• 41:34
  people out there. There's lots of very sly and
• 41:35
  sneaky people out there as well. A little stab you in the back, a
• 41:37
  lot of snakes. I've found that out a lot the
• 41:39
  last 14-15 months in this world I'm living in now.
• 41:43
  So I'm, I've been thrusted in this limelight.
• 41:45
  I enjoy it. I love it.
• 41:46
  I mean, but there's lots of people out there who've used me
• 41:49
  so much over the last because of my name.
• 41:51
  Come here and do this. They promise things to return
• 41:53
  things you might, you know, I'll do it for free or in return.
• 41:56
  I'll give you this in return, I'll give you that.
• 41:58
  You never hear off again. So, you know, I'm a nice person,
• 42:01
  a big heart. I want to help people, but at
• 42:03
  the end of the day, I need doing money.
• 42:04
  I've got to pay bills. I've got a roof.
• 42:05
  Put my head exactly in everyone else.
• 42:07
  So this is not exactly to be honest, you're like, you're
• 42:11
  getting better for us if these people like to.
• 42:12
  Be honest, that's not right. Yeah, there.
• 42:14
  You know, I had an intelligence officer on here the other day
• 42:18
  and we were speaking about, you know, different types of
• 42:20
  personalities and, and he's been in lots of different situations.
• 42:24
  And we were speaking about how actually, if you look at humans
• 42:27
  on all the different personalities, we can, it's
• 42:29
  almost like you can categorise people into types of animals
• 42:33
  that they could potentially be. So you get the snakes, you know,
• 42:37
  you get the parasitic people, you get the viruses that you
• 42:41
  can't even you, you can't see the danger.
• 42:43
  But oh boy, is it there. You get the lions, you get the
• 42:46
  sheep, you get the wolves. Yeah, I love that.
• 42:50
  Yeah, I love that analogy. Yeah, it's good.
• 42:51
  You can keep going. There are.
• 42:53
  It is for sure. Yeah, it's a zoo.
• 42:58
  It's A and what you really want is, is what's the best in
• 43:02
  nature, which is a symbiotic relationship where it's good for
• 43:04
  everyone. You know, let's let's go
• 43:06
  together, you know, 100% and one of those.
• 43:09
  Is more collaboration. If people work together, there's
• 43:12
  so much. I know it's competitive if you
• 43:14
  want your money, but I think there's enough business out
• 43:15
  there for everyone, whatever their business, whatever they're
• 43:17
  saying, work together. I mean come together, work
• 43:20
  together, especially in well-being a mental health.
• 43:23
  It's not a competition. We're not talking about KPIs or
• 43:26
  money. It's all about people's lives,
• 43:28
  so we've got to help each other work together.
• 43:30
  There's so much pettiness in fighting and things that that
• 43:33
  goes on. It's unbelievable, honestly.
• 43:35
  There is, isn't there? There really is.
• 43:39
  So what did the traitors teach you about vulnerability?
• 43:44
  Yeah, it actually learns a lot about vulnerability.
• 43:45
  But the biggest thing I learned in the traitors was what's
• 43:48
  important in life. I had pictures of my family
• 43:51
  around my room where I was staying.
• 43:53
  And then I go back, I go back to my room every at the end of
• 43:56
  every day and I talk to my pictures.
• 43:57
  I thought I was going mad. Every morning before I, I left
• 44:00
  work to the castle, I talk to my pictures again.
• 44:03
  I see people to the psychologist comes to our room every few
• 44:06
  days. Victoria, she was amazing.
• 44:07
  And I'd say, am I going mad? I'm talking to my pictures.
• 44:11
  You know, it's great. You're getting off your chest,
• 44:13
  you're grounded, you're obviously very intelligent.
• 44:15
  You're talking to them, getting off your chest, not bottling
• 44:18
  things up. I looked around the room.
• 44:20
  I knew about a week before the end I wasn't going to win it.
• 44:22
  I knew I wasn't going to win it because it was so much.
• 44:24
  He had so much influence, Harry, over the rest of the people.
• 44:27
  But I looked around the room and I thought to myself, this is all
• 44:30
  that. These people, they love me
• 44:33
  exactly the same. I come first, second, 10th.
• 44:36
  All these people think exactly the same.
• 44:37
  Yeah, we just wanted to win. I'm competitive, 95,000 lbs.
• 44:41
  It'd be nice, not invented about it at all, but who needs 95,000
• 44:45
  lbs? But that's what's important to
• 44:46
  me. That made me realise it gave me
• 44:48
  lots of time on my own to think about life in general, what's
• 44:51
  important, what's not important to life.
• 44:52
  So I had lots of thinking time to think about what's really
• 44:55
  important to me. OK.
• 44:58
  And your exit from the traitors, you appeared very emotional.
• 45:05
  What emotions were going through your mind?
• 45:08
  How did you feel? And and and maybe for those that
• 45:12
  didn't know what happened. When I left I was actually quite
• 45:16
  calm on the telly. I was quite.
• 45:17
  I smiled when I walked off because I knew I was coming.
• 45:19
  Louise, Molly, E, Molly, Jazz and Harry were in the final of
• 45:22
  four of us at the round table. I got voted off so Harry, Jazz
• 45:26
  and Molly voted me off. So I left and I was come forth
• 45:29
  and I, like I said, I knew a week before the end, not a week,
• 45:33
  a few days before the end of Morning Times and you were going
• 45:36
  to vote for me. I come to terms I'd had all day
• 45:39
  to think about it, my own thing, but all day because you were
• 45:42
  split up on the last day because the final went on much later
• 45:46
  than what we expected. But yeah, so I had all day to
• 45:50
  sit and just think about things and harm myself down and trying
• 45:53
  to think about what I'm going to do my next move.
• 45:55
  Do I go? It's Harry, do I try and win it?
• 45:57
  And it was a little bit stressful.
• 46:00
  I got, I was quite comfortable. I was quite proud of myself
• 46:03
  actually. So the first time in all my
• 46:06
  life, I suppose 2530 years, I'm actually proud of myself.
• 46:09
  I'm proud of where I got to. It was years ago I'd be
• 46:12
  disappointed I didn't win it. But now I'm proud of where I
• 46:15
  came. And I got upset because that's
• 46:18
  the first time in a long time that I've actually felt proud of
• 46:20
  myself and actually proud of my achievements.
• 46:24
  I'm going to ask you this. I mean, do you think, and I'm
• 46:28
  just putting it out there, that it might be a good thing not to
• 46:32
  win the traitor award? I mean, I'm just putting it out
• 46:37
  there. I don't know.
• 46:39
  I mean, obviously it's a game. But yeah, I wouldn't beat myself
• 46:43
  up about that at all. And to come forth is incredible.
• 46:46
  And you had to play both. You had the most difficult role
• 46:51
  because you also had formed relationships.
• 46:53
  You had been in that a long time and then you had to turn and do
• 46:57
  that. So they they put you in a very
• 47:00
  difficult, you probably had it the worst really.
• 47:02
  I've done a player in there actually just do everything.
• 47:04
  So I they said to me, I had the complete experience and I was a
• 47:07
  faithful, I was a traitor. You got locked in a dungeon.
• 47:10
  I did every mission and I did the end game, which is the end
• 47:13
  mission, which is the fire pit at the end.
• 47:15
  I was the only player, harried it into half as I did and he won
• 47:18
  it. I did everything so I had the
• 47:19
  full experience of you liked. So it was tough.
• 47:22
  It was good. You did.
• 47:23
  You had the full suite of of teacher, so now you've become a
• 47:30
  voice for mental health for men. Do you have men approaching you
• 47:34
  that you know are in difficulties?
• 47:36
  Do you find that you have that responsibility now to try and
• 47:40
  help these people? Yeah, I speak to hundreds of
• 47:44
  thousands of people over the last 18 months probably.
• 47:46
  And yeah, I like, I speak to lots of women as well.
• 47:48
  Women emotions. Women suffer the same as
• 47:50
  emotions from a trauma. Trauma is a trauma depending on
• 47:53
  the para or sex. Trauma is a trauma.
• 47:55
  And I got lots of women reaching out to me who've got young boys.
• 47:58
  Perhaps the dad isn't around forever.
• 48:00
  Reason. So they reach out to me, to the
• 48:01
  young children. They want advice, support about
• 48:03
  their drug people, their sport, about their schooling.
• 48:05
  So I get lots of women reaching out to me as well, speaking
• 48:08
  about their children. Yeah, I get a lot of it is a lot
• 48:11
  of I speak to people all the time.
• 48:13
  But but I say, I say to people straight to me.
• 48:15
  I'm not a qualified camper or a therapist or something.
• 48:19
  They say to me, I don't care. I just want to speak to somebody
• 48:22
  who's been through something, come out the other side.
• 48:24
  They want to know how you've overcome that.
• 48:26
  I don't want to speak to an academic or a counselor.
• 48:28
  I want to speak to somebody normal, who's relatable, who's
• 48:30
  got to live with experience as he lived.
• 48:32
  It's really powerful these days, just my car.
• 48:36
  If you've had cancer, if you've had a stroke, whatever you
• 48:38
  lived, this is people listen. It gives you credibility.
• 48:42
  People listen to you. Like myself after the accident,
• 48:45
  I refuse. I noticed they, they say my
• 48:48
  life, for example, but an academic, I didn't want to speak
• 48:51
  an academic. How do they know how I'm
• 48:53
  feeling? They've read a text for five
• 48:55
  years. They haven't been to me.
• 48:56
  They don't know how I'm feeling. I would have smoked somebody
• 48:58
  who's been through something, a car crash or something because
• 49:01
  they they would have stood where I was coming from and they would
• 49:04
  listen to me, empathize to me. And that's what people say to
• 49:07
  me, I guess. So many national people say I
• 49:09
  want to speak to somebody who's been through something, came up
• 49:11
  the other side is all crashing. I do.
• 49:13
  I do speak to people too much. I speak all the time and fucking
• 49:16
  people. So what are the common themes,
• 49:20
  you know, what are people typically going through that
• 49:23
  come to you? Just also, in case someone's
• 49:26
  listening, you know, what are the sorts of things that people
• 49:29
  are suffering with that you found the most common?
• 49:32
  What is the lack of confidence or self belief?
• 49:35
  A lot of reason or if you've got a trauma, you know, people ever
• 49:37
  lose their confidence sometime in their life.
• 49:39
  It doesn't be a car accident. It's gotta you do it whether
• 49:41
  they lost their job or you through a divorce.
• 49:44
  And you do lose a bit of confidence sometimes.
• 49:45
  And I read people who talk to me a lot about, you know, belief
• 49:49
  and self belief or confidence and self worth a lot do they say
• 49:52
  if you're lost in life at the moment, you don't believe in
• 49:55
  themselves anymore, They've lost their confidence.
• 49:57
  I speak a lot of people around, the biggest one for trauma.
• 50:04
  And you know, you spoke earlier about your mum.
• 50:06
  I mean, that's, that's a dark, no one wants to lose their mum.
• 50:10
  It's a horrible, horrible thing. And tell us a little bit about
• 50:16
  how you process that, you know, because people are losing people
• 50:20
  they love. And how do you how do you
• 50:23
  process that grief? Listen, not cold.
• 50:28
  I love her mother bits and also my mother was a matriarch of the
• 50:31
  family. She was the boss of the family.
• 50:33
  She was only about four for 10. All of her, all of her boys were
• 50:36
  powered over when she spoke. We all listened.
• 50:39
  She was the boss in the household.
• 50:40
  She was the the the main person in the house and the strength.
• 50:43
  That's where I get my strength from me and my mother.
• 50:46
  But I've done a lot of work over the last two years on mindset,
• 50:48
  lead framing, mindset, these framing things and, and this
• 50:51
  sounds through, oh, whatever now, but there's a lot of
• 50:54
  reasonable spiritual things about frequencies, vibrations
• 50:57
  and all this sort of thing. I believe my mother still would
• 51:00
  be in some capacity. Her spirit is, she might have
• 51:02
  left her physical body, her vessel, her spirit is still with
• 51:05
  me and I feel it sometimes. I did a talk up in Leeds, a big
• 51:09
  talk, a big conference, and I did, it was genius.
• 51:12
  After my mother passed, I'd send my slides over a few weeks
• 51:15
  before that. And one of the slides was me, my
• 51:18
  mother and my son. The whole point on that slide is
• 51:21
  to spend time with people. Don't take time to people for
• 51:23
  granted. And I didn't.
• 51:24
  I forgot. So I was standing up in front of
• 51:27
  the big audience. I started, I clicked with the
• 51:29
  clicker, the picture came on the screen behind.
• 51:31
  Me. Oh no.
• 51:32
  The voice felt a bit funny. The voice felt a bit funny.
• 51:34
  I felt a bit. All of a sudden I felt really
• 51:37
  warm. I felt really warm, as if
• 51:39
  somebody put their arm around me, as if I felt somebody had.
• 51:43
  And I went. I felt really calm, but I felt a
• 51:45
  bit, I felt my voice got a bit funny.
• 51:47
  All of a sudden. It was like my mother had her
• 51:49
  arm around me and said, come on, boy, you've got this good.
• 51:51
  Oh. It's really emotional.
• 51:53
  I went this felt really calm and they carried on talking there in
• 51:57
  front of the audience and I did tell the audience and I saw my
• 51:59
  mum passed away three days ago. This is what you're doing with
• 52:01
  this talk. It was only three days ago, you
• 52:03
  know, we thought he was booked in a long time and I was the
• 52:05
  main speaker so I couldn't cancel it and I't see it.
• 52:08
  So I know grief is actually different for every single
• 52:11
  person. I was diagnosed with grieving
• 52:13
  after the accident because I refused to get a professional.
• 52:17
  But then 15 years after the accident, I actually went to
• 52:20
  sitcom for the first time ever. And she said to me after the
• 52:24
  first session, I know what's wrong with you.
• 52:26
  And I said, what's up? GST profession?
• 52:28
  Yeah, you've got them. No, you're grieving.
• 52:30
  I didn't know much about it back then.
• 52:32
  I do workshops. And I said, what do you mean
• 52:34
  grieving? That's when you die.
• 52:35
  And she was young as you've got a dying degree.
• 52:38
  She was the loss of my it's only I'm hearing of these days.
• 52:41
  I used to be rugby. I used to do this.
• 52:43
  I used to grieve in the old Andrew.
• 52:45
  She said to me people grieve all the time.
• 52:46
  Every single people person grieves.
• 52:48
  They don't really like to do that.
• 52:49
  Anyone lose a big project in work, for example, it's 10
• 52:52
  different project. Work doesn't come off ask
• 52:54
  grieving. If you change the part it's in
• 52:56
  work to different apartments. Ask grieving retire from work is
• 52:58
  grieving lose a sporting career. And she said people when they
• 53:02
  have children leave so they can't go out as much.
• 53:05
  And I want as much money, as much freedom as you grieve in
• 53:07
  their own life. So why do I talk?
• 53:09
  I want to talk about grieving. I can see people in the audience
• 53:11
  thinking, oh, I must have been grieving.
• 53:13
  I lost my job or I got divorced and I stepped away from my
• 53:16
  partner. All grief is is the emotional
• 53:19
  reaction to the loss of any kind.
• 53:21
  So I was grieving after the accident.
• 53:22
  So in regards to my mother, I tried to reframe it.
• 53:26
  So I would say in this member, of course I do, but I tried to
• 53:29
  think about the 47 good years I spent with my mother.
• 53:32
  Rather than focus on negatives from people when they grieve,
• 53:35
  they focus on the fact they're never going to see that person
• 53:37
  again. They're never going to see that
• 53:38
  person again. I know it's different for them.
• 53:40
  We're not politically anything, that's all.
• 53:42
  But with me, I try to think right, think of the Goodman,
• 53:44
  think of the good 47 years that I spent my mother, happy
• 53:47
  memories when she used to put in bed to read the story every
• 53:49
  night and I put a smile on my face.
• 53:51
  I try to focus on the positives rather than focus on the
• 53:53
  negatives. It's easy to focus on the
• 53:55
  negatives and spiral in a Park Place for days and days or weeks
• 53:58
  and months. And my dad is speaking at the
• 54:00
  moment. They've been 62 years, married
• 54:03
  58 years. So they know she knows he knows
• 54:07
  different to us. They were like joined together.
• 54:09
  Yes, joined together. Yeah, so he's really struggling.
• 54:13
  He's quite angry and bitter at the moment.
• 54:14
  He's struggling with life, day-to-day life.
• 54:17
  He's struggling with, whereas, you know, my three brothers I
• 54:20
  think all seem OK. I'm trying to think of keep
• 54:23
  myself positive and happy. I think I know my mother's still
• 54:25
  watching me. Wherever she is, she's watching
• 54:27
  me and I hope she's proud of what I'm doing, the work I'm
• 54:29
  doing. Yeah.
• 54:31
  And keeping an eye on people around you that are grieving
• 54:34
  because maybe they don't have the strength because The thing
• 54:36
  is. So the, the good thing about
• 54:39
  this, what you've just said is that all the things that your
• 54:42
  mum taught you, the strength that you've got from her, it
• 54:46
  stays with you. That's going to live on you.
• 54:48
  You're here. She's with you via the strength.
• 54:51
  And you said the warm feeling and everything you've got that
• 54:53
  you've got all those memories and you've got her behavior
• 54:56
  that's literally living on within you.
• 54:59
  But there are also people that don't know how to cope with that
• 55:03
  grief and it gets overwhelming and they might not have the
• 55:06
  mechanisms in place. And it's just also keeping an
• 55:09
  eye on. Yeah, yeah, just the people
• 55:12
  around you and making sure that they don't slip down that really
• 55:15
  dark as. Soon as anything with mental
• 55:18
  health or anything really would well be the mental health.
• 55:20
  You're always going to check in on people and if you're serious
• 55:23
  it will well be the mental health.
• 55:24
  You've got to check in on people.
• 55:25
  We all spend 1020 thirty minutes a day doing scrolling on your
• 55:28
  mobile phone, Instagram or whatever you look at.
• 55:31
  We haven't got 5 minutes tablets to bring your best mate.
• 55:33
  Most of the time you know something he's going through
• 55:36
  something whether it could be terminal illness.
• 55:39
  Also job preparation just checking about person it takes 2
• 55:42
  minutes to pick up the phone or even text.
• 55:44
  I mean to say how you feeling? I'm hearing of you everything
• 55:47
  okay my simple text be the difference than taking their own
• 55:51
  life or not. I know I might sound aware
• 55:54
  harsh. It's true.
• 55:55
  It's true that one a person who sat in their house isolated.
• 55:59
  They're lonely, lonely around them for days and that taxi for
• 56:03
  the first time anybody's spoken to them for days or weeks.
• 56:05
  Sometimes that could be the difference between them taking
• 56:07
  their own life and not and it's as simple as that.
• 56:09
  They're checking on people that care people who care about loved
• 56:12
  ones were colleagues they're checking on them.
• 56:14
  The simple text, you know, just you're checking it OK.
• 56:17
  Yeah, I mean, I wasn't going to, I wasn't planning to say this,
• 56:21
  but I had a a personal trainer that I worked with for a few
• 56:25
  years actually. And he had some, you know, he
• 56:27
  was suffering from some mental health issues or whatever, but
• 56:30
  he's, he was actually also tougher rugby guy, sporting
• 56:34
  background, you know, and then he had an injury.
• 56:37
  And it's like you're saying you were talking about the grief of
• 56:40
  your identity that that bit's now gone and you can't do all
• 56:44
  the sport and not on the level that you wanted to do.
• 56:46
  And suddenly you're stripped of this identity.
• 56:49
  And he found that really hard, you know, and during COVID, you
• 56:57
  know, everyone was sort of cut off and he wasn't able to see
• 57:00
  his, his, I mean, he was seen a counsellor, like a therapy
• 57:03
  person, you know, someone that could, you could talk to
• 57:06
  regularly in person that could help him.
• 57:08
  And that was all cut off. And he did reach out with a
• 57:12
  message saying, you know, you know, I'm finding it quite
• 57:15
  tough, you know, this, this whole COVID thing.
• 57:17
  And it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, it's tough.
• 57:19
  You know, hopefully we'll get back to things soon.
• 57:21
  He never got back to things soon, unfortunately.
• 57:24
  And it's that haunts me. I sort of think, you know, it's
• 57:29
  like you're saying that message when when someone someone's it's
• 57:33
  a cry for help, isn't it? A lot of the time, some tries to
• 57:36
  take their own life. They don't.
• 57:38
  Most of the time they don't mean to take their own life.
• 57:39
  They're just to cry for help a lot of the time.
• 57:41
  And it's like people, like you said, their identity and people
• 57:44
  in the forces, they've been institutionalized for 20-30
• 57:48
  years and they come out to the forces and they can't deal with
• 57:51
  life. And sports people, anybody who's
• 57:53
  been in their career a long time.
• 57:54
  And the policemen find they all of a sudden they leave their
• 57:56
  identity and they really struggle with that.
• 57:59
  And also, I know people, you know, people see those those who
• 58:02
  are going to close laws. Sometimes people the biggest
• 58:05
  smiles on their faces, the nicest houses or the nicest cars
• 58:07
  are struggling the most. Lots of, you know, a lot of
• 58:10
  CEOs, for example, who are it's a high pressure job, again, can
• 58:14
  be quite lonely. Who do they talk to?
• 58:17
  They work it's hours stressed. They got, you know, 103 hundred,
• 58:20
  200 people to look after, you know, and it's a high pressure
• 58:23
  job. And we've got these nice, these
• 58:25
  nice jobs gave us a standard of living.
• 58:28
  I mean, so you can't really take a step back.
• 58:29
  And sometimes then they take, there's so much pressure on them
• 58:32
  anyway, how they think is take their life.
• 58:34
  Unfortunately, there were lots of people last year, a few
• 58:37
  people who've earning great salaries in London, for example,
• 58:39
  earning 6 figures, but have married children, good job, good
• 58:43
  car, wife isn't working or whatever.
• 58:45
  So they're so they're so pressure, they're so they're so
• 58:49
  scared to tell their wives or whatever the truth.
• 58:52
  They can't move back. They can't, you know, they have
• 58:54
  a certain life, pilot dinners all the time, holidays they
• 58:57
  scare to help you with the truth and you know when they came.
• 59:00
  I know people in their 40s are taking their own life over the
• 59:02
  last two years, two people. Well, so the last year on the
• 59:06
  outside looks like a perfect life, but it's a high pressure
• 59:09
  job at the top in London earning money and they can't, they can't
• 59:13
  see a way out because that's the only way out is their life,
• 59:15
  which is starved really. It's, it's, the pressures are
• 59:18
  real. And, and so basically, I, I
• 59:22
  would, I would actually say that almost everyone virtually
• 59:26
  listening to this podcast is going to be dealing with
• 59:30
  something feeling a bit stuck, maybe feeling a bit broken or
• 59:34
  worrying about someone really close to them feeling stuck or
• 59:38
  broken. So based on, I mean, we've,
• 59:41
  we've spoken a lot about all of this.
• 59:42
  And I thank you so much for, for coming on the podcast and
• 59:45
  sharing your story with us. What would you tell these
• 59:51
  people? How would you advise them what
• 59:54
  to do next? You know, if anyone's feeling a
• 59:56
  bit lost. Oh, it's a big question.
• 59:59
  Yeah, I know it's so easy. It's easy because it took me 15
• 1:00:04
  years to talk to someone. But I said, and one thing I
• 1:00:07
  said, he's talk and open up to someone.
• 1:00:09
  It hasn't got to be professional.
• 1:00:11
  It could be a work colleague, a friend, a family.
• 1:00:13
  He bought all my feelings up for many, many years and made myself
• 1:00:16
  ill. I thought as a man, I couldn't
• 1:00:18
  open up and talk. Women as well, You know, women
• 1:00:20
  high crashing, a lot of successful women, they probably
• 1:00:23
  find it hard to talk as well. But.
• 1:00:25
  And the people around me will think exactly the same.
• 1:00:27
  They won't judge or treat very differently.
• 1:00:29
  Like when if I found out my best mate was struggling or took his
• 1:00:33
  own life, for example, he couldn't come and talk.
• 1:00:35
  I feel terrible that he couldn't come and talk to me.
• 1:00:38
  When we want to talk, you think people will judge us
• 1:00:40
  differently? They won't.
• 1:00:42
  I said just be brave, be courageous, take that first step
• 1:00:45
  and talk to somebody. Don't bottle things up because
• 1:00:47
  when you bottle things up, it's spirals.
• 1:00:50
  I'm a huge, a huge believer in prevention is better than cure.
• 1:00:54
  Once we're in this country, we're very reactive and very
• 1:00:56
  proactive and somebody tries to take no life, they'll help them.
• 1:01:00
  And somebody obese give an injection.
• 1:01:02
  It's bad. I think no give people the tools
• 1:01:05
  or the education months or years before up again that far.
• 1:01:10
  Like why in schools why do we teach our children?
• 1:01:13
  But APS candidates when they leave school, you know if they
• 1:01:16
  borrow money it's going to cost them X amount of pounds.
• 1:01:19
  Why do we teach you more calories in calories out?
• 1:01:21
  So if they eat more calories than E they're going to put
• 1:01:23
  weight on. Why do we teach you about how to
• 1:01:25
  regulate their feelings and emotions?
• 1:01:27
  Not saying teaching only counsellors or therapists to
• 1:01:30
  become a basic understanding of their emotions.
• 1:01:32
  At the moment this country is spending millions of pounds or
• 1:01:34
  billions of pounds of obesity. Suicides are going up and debt
• 1:01:38
  is costing the country billions of pounds.
• 1:01:40
  So why do we teach the people them three things life skills
• 1:01:44
  rather than teaching about Pythagoras senior and more or
• 1:01:46
  King Harold in 1066. Why do we teach people life
• 1:01:49
  skills? They can actually you from a new
• 1:01:51
  school, not knocking school. The curriculum is 100 is
• 1:01:54
  updating your time, but he's updating to the real life.
• 1:01:57
  Now to be honest with you by saying please speak to someone
• 1:02:00
  and talk to someone. If you're struggling with
• 1:02:01
  anything at all but how big or small it is, please talk to
• 1:02:04
  somebody. That's the big tip I can give
• 1:02:05
  you. I love that and I feel like it
• 1:02:08
  brings us right back to the first question, which I had
• 1:02:12
  about your walking or not being able to walk and you having
• 1:02:16
  taken that first step. And that's really the lesson to
• 1:02:20
  anyone suffering and going through anything.
• 1:02:22
  Take that step, have that conversation one step at a time.
• 1:02:27
  Andrew. It's been an absolute pleasure.
• 1:02:30
  Thank you very much. Thank.
• 1:02:31
  You so much.