Latest / Beheaded / Game of Roses | Richard Woodville

Transcript

Game of Roses | Richard Woodville · Beheaded

0:04
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to season seven, episode two.
0:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm Megan Moore, and I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: Your house is quite festive, Elizabeth.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: I love hosting you this evening.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, I put up, I think I've mentioned this on the show, but I put up my decorations so freaking early.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: Like literally October 31st rolls around.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: I let like Dia de los Muertos kind of simmer for a day or two, and then it's Halloween down, Christmas Inn.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Like that's a quick turnover.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: I know.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: And I used to, like, trust me, for years and years I would wait until like Thanksgiving or December 1st to do official Christmas stuff.
0:42
SPEAKER_01: And now I don't care.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: Like Robbie loves Christmas, so he's excited about it.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: We're like Christmas up immediately, as soon as we possibly can.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, you align with Disneyland, right?
0:51
SPEAKER_00: I think I remember we talked about this.
0:53
SPEAKER_00: I think we we had this is our annual conversation, I think.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Do we say this every year?
0:57
SPEAKER_00: Are we forgetful old?
0:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember a lot of things that we talk about, but I remember this conversation.
1:02
SPEAKER_00: But it's it's enlightening.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: I think we have a lot of new listeners getting to know us a little bit.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: And you love Disney.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: I do.
1:09
SPEAKER_01: And I will say, I think that's like the reason why I felt okay putting up decorations because I was like, well, when does Disneyland do their whole Christmas time?
1:17
SPEAKER_01: And it was literally as soon as Halloween ends.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: And like I actually went to Disneyland in October of this year, and they already had snow on the castle on like October 10th.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: Oh, jeez.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: So I was like, okay, if Disney's allowed to start that early, I'm I'm frigging starting as early as I can.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and like every year I try to do like introduce a new element.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: Like you saw, you commented, I have like an extra tree this year.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: An extra tree.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: We do have an extra tree.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: If you're watching the YouTube, welcome.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we are on YouTube.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: We highly recommend you go check it out.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, just search Beheaded Podcast on YouTube.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Not just beheaded.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Just just a bit weird.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Just a little tip.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: But um, it's not in the video right now because we're in the office, but I'm staring in front of me at one of the trees, which is quite beautiful.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: It's it's dog themed.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say we we themed it after our rescue dog, and his little picture, like the day we adopted him from the shelter, is at the very top.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: It's like a little angel or like star on the tree.
2:16
SPEAKER_01: But the rest is very cute.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: It's all just like a white tree, silver ornaments.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: It's oh yeah.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: So as we're recording this, it is almost Thanksgiving.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't have a single little sprinkle of holiday in my house.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: You still have pumpkins from Halloween, but they're like I think out of laziness.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: Well, they're like autumn pumpkins.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: They're fall foliage pumpkins.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: That counts.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: But I'm just the I I did see a funny video today.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: It was like, let's let us all give a moment of respect to the husbands and partners today carrying up the Halloween decorations or carrying down the Halloween, or not Halloween, sorry, Christmas.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what holiday we're in, carrying up or down the Christmas decorations.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: And I'm I I gotta ask the favor soon.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: I got the big bucket in the garage up on the rafters, and the the time has come to ask him to bring it down, which is in itself a pain.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: It's Thanksgiving week.
3:14
SPEAKER_01: Like you have to put it up this week, I feel I don't have to do anything.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: You know what I always thought was weird?
3:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, one of my biggest pet peeves is in the movie The Christmas Story or a Christmas story, right?
3:26
SPEAKER_00: In a Christmas story.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: How they decorate the Christmas tree.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: They get the Christmas tree and decorate the Christmas tree on Christmas Eve.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: That's stupid.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, what a waste.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: Same with um Mickey's Once Upon a Christmas.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: He's selling Christmas trees on Christmas Eve, and that irks me because that is not enough time to appreciate the tree.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I feel yeah.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: One night?
3:50
SPEAKER_01: It's more because, like, in a Christmas movie, they have to theme it around Christmas week.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: So you're like, what do you do on Christmas week?
3:56
SPEAKER_01: And they're not just gonna like stare at each other and not work.
3:58
SPEAKER_01: The night before just sounds like, oh, you put up a tree and you decorate it, like, even though you do that four weeks before.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: It feels manic.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: It feels unprepared, it feels undisciplined to just go and find a tree at like nine o'clock at night.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, when you were a kid, when when would you put up Christmas?
4:15
SPEAKER_00: First of all, my mother took care of absolutely everything, and I was not allowed to decorate the tree.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Hell yeah.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: I think because go Lisa to this day, I I break a lot of things.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, is it because your nickname is Slips?
4:30
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of broken ornaments in my name.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: Even just setting up last week when we set up, I it was the event of at one point literally everything in our video and audio recording setup.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: I tripped and it all fell and collapsed at once.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: To clarify, you're saying set up for our podcast.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: For our podcast.
4:49
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, sorry, in my brain.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: We were setting up last week for the podcast for the audio and the video, and just everything fell over.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: And imagine that, but with Christmas trees.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: That's me, and that's why I'm not allowed to touch anything.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: I think we bent a few like cord, what do you call them, connector points?
5:08
SPEAKER_01: There was a few things, but it was it was good.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: I I told Megan, I'm like, when we first started this podcast, we had first, very first time, like guitar hero microphones, and then we upgraded to like a Yeti microphone that we shared for years.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: For years.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: And then we just introduced like video maybe a year or two back.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: So now, like, if you if you guys haven't seen our YouTube or again, you're new to the show, we got new microphones.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Thank you to everyone who contributed to those last year.
5:36
SPEAKER_01: We named them.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: We named them.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: We named them.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: Wait, but which one's which?
5:41
SPEAKER_00: I think I'm pain.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: I think you're panic.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: So our mics have names.
5:50
SPEAKER_00: Our our blue Yeti, our old microphone was named the Iron Maiden.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: So we have to like go with the theme of naming, torture, torture.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, Elizabeth, we have to give you credit for these names.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Introduce.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I was gonna say, I was like, there's so many names you can go with, like duos in history, and like we've called them dragons in the past.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, should we name them after dragons?
6:10
SPEAKER_01: Should we name them after queens?
6:12
SPEAKER_01: And it came to me, I was like, you know what'd be perfect is pain and panic from the movie Hercules.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: Because A, like, obviously, we're kind of Disney nerds, B, it's perfect for beheaded, like episodes about torture and execution.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm the panic.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: Panic.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm the pain.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: It's it's just suiting.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: Uh Megan, you know, yeah, drops things a lot.
6:34
SPEAKER_00: Panic.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: Everything's like, it's fine, it's fine.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: This is fine.
6:37
SPEAKER_00: Just to this evening, setting up an hour in.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Elizabeth is watching me talk to myself.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is fine.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: This is okay.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: This is gonna work.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: Is it why is it working?
6:46
SPEAKER_00: It's not working.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: Why is nothing working?
6:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm the panic, and you are I'm just the pain.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: You're just the pain.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to put that in any other words.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth's back here going, did you plug it in?
6:57
SPEAKER_00: Did you turn it on?
6:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I think yeah, I think you took a picture of it last time.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: Refer to that.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: It's relevant.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm very happy for our setup.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for those who helped us make this possible.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we were kind of just reflecting this evening as we were setting up of, you know, you go back and listen to the first few episodes, you know, I'm cringe over it.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm ready to take them down, but I like them.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Say what you will.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: Everyone gets their start somewhere.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't think they were too bad.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: I think by the third episode, we get it.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: It's good, sort of.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: I maybe I'm harsh.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm um, you know, everyone gets their start.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying we're we're great, but we've gotten better.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: We we've definitely improved.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we've taken a lot of feedback.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: And again, at the end of the day, like a lot of listeners like just the beginning intro where we talk about our lives a little bit, and then a lot of people just want us to skip to the story.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: And if you're one of those people, skip 10 minutes in, you'll get to fast forward.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes 20 minutes, we apologize.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: We like to talk.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: And again, we only see each other in our lives like every so often.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: So we have to catch up.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: And you're part of it, and this is it.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: Um Wow, I don't know what we just covered.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: Multiple things in one slew of training thought.
8:11
SPEAKER_01: Holiday decorations and how far we come, and it's the end of the year, and we're super grateful for things in life.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful for panic and pain.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: Pain and panic.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Pain and panic.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: I like it.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: I think it's good.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and it's a nod to Greek mythology.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh, good, good call.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: So all the things mine is pain, hers is panic, and here we go.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: And this is Beheaded Podcast.
8:33
SPEAKER_00: I don't know why I keep calling it Beheaded Podcast now.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: You notice that?
8:36
SPEAKER_00: I've noticed you don't you've done that.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: I unintentionally.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: I think it's just because you're separating again from any other internet searches.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: And even Google searches.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: Oops, sorry, let me kick you up.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: Pain.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Panic.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm so sorry.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: Alrighty.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: So um we season season seven, episode one.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: We went really far back.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: And Egyptology is definitely Elizabeth's forte and strong suit.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: So if you haven't listened to episode one, go and listen to it.
9:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: I don't know where I'm going with this.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I was I do.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: I'll pick up for you.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: Um because Megan, Megan's passion is tutor history.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I love tutor history as well.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: I feel like Megan has just read so much more about it.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like you're an unofficial expert in some.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of things I still don't know and I still get wrong.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: And we were going through family trees this evening.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: And it it frustrates me because I wish I could just retain information a little bit better.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: Once I start rereading, I'm like, oh yes, light bulb, now it comes back to me.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: But it gets a little, it gets a little tricky, a little dicey there with the with the family trees.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: Not just the tutors, but the plantagenets and the Lancastrians and the Yorks and going all the way back to Edward III or so.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: Um and I think the challenge, and we've said this so many times on our show, but it's like there are so many similar names.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh, and when you pass down titles, the titles can be the same title.
10:01
SPEAKER_01: So it gets very confusing over time where you're like, like which Henry, which Edward, which Mary, which Elizabeth, like what's going on?
10:09
SPEAKER_01: So until you have a firm grasp of like certain storylines, it just takes a while.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: It takes, I mean, we've been studying the same thing for years and years, and we still have like old moments or like, oh my God, so-and-so is the later so-and-so.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: So if you're with us, like it's okay.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: It's okay to have questions, it's okay to rewind parts, uh, it's okay to look up family trees because it does get confusing, and we're gonna work through it the best we can.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, follow along with us this evening because we are talking this evening about Richard Woodville.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Which leads us into the Wars of the Roses, which is why we're gonna have to buckle up here and put our thinking hats on.
10:46
SPEAKER_01: I will just say Richard Woodville's story is fairly straightforward.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: Like his life and death, we're gonna sum it up, I think, in a nice little package.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: What we have to acknowledge, though, is that this does take place during War of the Roses.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of crazy things going on with warring parts of the family.
11:04
SPEAKER_01: And again, like who's heir to the throne?
11:06
SPEAKER_01: It gets so Game of Thronesy and contentious.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: So again, we're gonna we're gonna work through his story.
11:13
SPEAKER_01: That's the whole point of this episode, but we're gonna introduce a lot of backstory with War of Roses.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: And everyone has the same name, yeah not as bad as Cleopatra's yeah, Cleopatra's family that we went over in the last episode.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: They were literally named the same.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, but this one is is is up there.
11:31
SPEAKER_01: So um I'm gonna take it away, Elizabeth.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, I'll jump right in.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then uh Megan's gonna provide a lot of the fun historical context.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: Fun story.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: And the fun part.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna I'm gonna stick to the storyline and you're gonna interject with some cool stuff as we go along.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: But I won't interject too much, right?
11:48
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm practicing.
11:51
SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a learned practice.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: Seven years later, I might learn something here.
11:56
SPEAKER_01: All good.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: All right, so we're gonna introduce our man of the evening, Richard Woodville, the first Earl Rivers, which is a title that he um kind of creates for himself with the king's help.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna get into that later.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't know who Richard Woodville is and you're like, who's this person?
12:14
SPEAKER_01: How does he relate to tutor history?
12:16
SPEAKER_01: What are you guys talking about?
12:18
SPEAKER_01: Just so you know the connection to our other storylines, he is the great-grandfather of King Henry VIII.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: So just before we get into his like story of where he's from and all that, um, he's the father of Elizabeth Woodville.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: Elizabeth Woodville marries King Edward IV.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: They then have a child whose name is Elizabeth of York, and Elizabeth of York is the mother of King Henry VIII.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:45
SPEAKER_01: So I tried to say that as clearly as possible.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: But if you have heard of some of these people, again, the main one you probably know is King Henry VIII.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: Again, his mother, Elizabeth of York, Elizabeth of York's parents, Elizabeth Woodville, and King Edward IV.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: And if you've heard the name Elizabeth Woodville before, we have referenced her in our Princess in the Tower episode, which is an episode about Perkin Warbeck, who is essentially an imposter who came forward during that time of not being sure of who's taking the throne.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: So if you're curious more about the Princess in the Tower, that storyline, refer to our episode on that, which was, I believe, season five, episode one.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, I mentioned in the last episode as season six, so just ignore me.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Figure it out on your own.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: Look it up, be resourceful.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, figure it out.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: I will also say if you're anything like me, I'm I'm a little bit ashamed to say this.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: So I'm sorry, but this is an honest podcast and I will speak openly.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: There's no judgment here.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: No judgment is I have to, in my brain too, picture a lot of like the white queen on what is it, Showtime.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's also the um Philip McGregory series of the White Queen.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: Because that has to do a lot with this era and Elizabeth Woodville and her father, Richard Woodville.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes in my brain, if I have to remember whose feel, I have to think of the actors and remember their dramatic, fictionalized story, but it does sadly help me connect the pieces sometimes.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
14:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, as humans, we're very visual people.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: We actually talked about this on our Susanna Lipscomb episode, too, how like when portraits come into play, we feel like we know the people so much more.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: Are better connected.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: So obviously, people that we can see and we feel like we know, even if it's just an actor portrayal, we feel like we understand it a bit better.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: So that's inaccuracies in the plot line, but we'll we'll roll with it.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: Totally okay.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: All right, so back to Richard Woodville.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: So Richard Woodville was born around 1405 in Maidstone, Kent, England.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, and he is the son of a Chamberlain to Duke of Bedford.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: So essentially he's not noble.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: He is in the gentry class, um, and he follows in his father's footsteps of service.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: So he also becomes this service person to the Duke of Bedford.
14:58
SPEAKER_01: But he, I think, shows a lot of ambition even in his young age.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: We don't know a ton about his early life, but we do know by the time he's 21, so about 14, 26, he becomes a knight.
15:09
SPEAKER_01: So you don't just get knighted out of nowhere.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, you have to kind of like show your your, what do you say, like prove your stripes, show your colors, all that, you know, kind of kind of show your worth.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: So he came forward as a knight when he was freshly 21, and only a few years later, he actually goes on to marry the same Duke we just talked about, Duke of Bedford's widow.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: So he dies.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: And then she's left a widow.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: She's only, I don't know, 19 years old at this time.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: And her name is Jacetta of Luxembourg.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: I love Jacetta of Luxembourg.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: She is a very interesting character in history.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: And actually, I'm gonna reference this book that I read oh, I want to say like last year or two years ago.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: It's called Royal Witches: Witchcraft and the Nobility in 15th Century England by Gemma Holman.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay, if you're on the YouTube, here it is.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: I highly recommend this book.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: It's really cool.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: It goes over the stories of three different women in 15th century England who are all accused of being a witch.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: And a whole part of this book is about Jaketa of Luxembourg and Elizabeth Woodville.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: Ooh, as I showed the picture that no one can see.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: So, anyways, I learned a lot about her through that book.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: And gosh, she is an interesting figure that just easily overlooked in history.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, unlike her husband, Richard Woodville, she came from some nobility.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: And she was only 17 in 1433 when she married her first husband, as Elizabeth mentioned.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: This Elizabeth, oh my god, your name also is like the same name as everyone else.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, for the purposes of our show, when we talk about tutors, you can call me like Liz.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: I've never called you Liz.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: I know E black E B.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: E.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: B.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: E.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: So you could you do call me E.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: B sometimes.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: You can call me that.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: I can call you E.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, we just like to overcomplicate it.
16:59
SPEAKER_00: Anyways, uh, Jaquetta marries the Duke of Bedford, who is obviously important and he's part of nobility, and he's quite fancy.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: They are quite rich.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: And he's also much older than her.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's old, he's not doing so well health-wise.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: Jaketta's also, when she marries the Duke of Bedford, then by marriage becomes the aunt of Henry VI.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: Who's king?
17:26
SPEAKER_00: Who's king?
17:27
SPEAKER_00: King Henry VI.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: We'll get into King Henry a little bit more.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, but so she's now a very prominent woman in court.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: She's very important.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: And Bedford ends up dying, her husband, Duke of Bedford.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Also, I lived in Bedford, New Hampshire.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: Isn't that fun?
17:44
SPEAKER_01: I can't, yeah, I can't think of Duke of Bedford without thinking of Bedford, New Hampshire.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: Or you said New Hampshire.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's where I grew up.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: Isn't there also in Bedford, Bedford, Massachusetts?
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes, right?
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: So I just think of the East Coast.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think because on the East Coast they bring a lot of the British names over.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: It it's so funny.
18:01
SPEAKER_01: In in America, it's like all of our East Coast names are just English names.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: All of our like New York, New York.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, all of our like southwest western things are literally like all Spanish.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: All of our southern things are like French.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: And like so many of them are all Native American, too.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: We all just take it from something else.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: This is so funny.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: Whenever they're like, oh, New York, I'm like, oh yeah, like York.
18:23
SPEAKER_01: But it's new.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: It's New York.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, sorry, not to distract.
18:27
SPEAKER_00: But um, so Bedford dies.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: He's old, he's sick.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: They were only married for about two and a half years.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, she's 19, 19 and a half at this point.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: She becomes the sole heiress in his entire will, which means as a woman in the 14, what are we in now?
18:43
SPEAKER_00: The 1430s.
18:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: She owns land, she has income.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, he owned land in both England and in France.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: So she's doing pretty well, right?
18:54
SPEAKER_00: She's wealthy and she still has her title as a royal duchess.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: That's a big deal in England.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, badass.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: And it is kind of cool that women in this era, like again, even though obviously your rights weren't as expansive as men's rights, if you did marry someone who was prominent, like a Duke, and then you marry someone again who's of lesser status, you still keep your original status, which is cool.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: So, like basically the highest status you achieve is what you keep throughout your whole life.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: Unless there's, you know, issues, unless you strip the title.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: Typically, a woman would marry up in her rank.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: And that was the whole purpose of being a woman, right?
19:30
SPEAKER_00: The parents, her mother wanted her to marry up, do well for herself, do well for the family, and then gain entire title.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: Very rarely, if ever, would a woman marry down in her rank.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: That's just exactly what happened here.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Which is so fascinating because I think that proves that Jaquetta was marrying for love a second time.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes, because for love.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: First, first marriage says she's 17 years old.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: She marries this old duke.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: I think he was 26 years older than her.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: And again, like ill health.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And then here she is after the the marriage, 19 years old, and she marries Richard Woodville, who is probably in his mid-20s.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, from certain accounts, he's extremely handsome.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: And he's again of lowly class.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: He came from the gentry, he has no title.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: Like she's like, Yeah, I like this guy.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, again, to recap, his father was the chamberlain to the Duke.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, his his father also served Henry V and Thomas, Duke of Clarence.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: So he had some experience of servitude in his belt.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: But uh again, right, he's not a noble, he's serving the nobles.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: This is a really big deal that Elizabeth marries him, and they do it in secret.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: They do.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say they're uh they had a secret ceremony.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: So she was supposed to have received permission from King Henry the Sixth, but because they had this secret ceremony and she never asked and didn't tell anyone either after it happened, they eventually were found out and then they were fined a thousand pounds.
20:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they knew he would say no.
21:02
SPEAKER_00: They knew again, Jaquetta is Henry VI's aunt.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: Why would he allow his aunt to marry someone in servitude, someone in gentry?
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: So they did, yeah, they didn't secret.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: And and here's the kicker.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: So when he was so pissed off, he was so mad to find this out that completely she ruined all the plans of marriage.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh, that dowry I talked about, how she got everything, he took it all away.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: And he said, No, no, no, no, no, you're not gonna get this dowry.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: Like, you are not worthy.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Guess what?
21:32
SPEAKER_00: You wanted to marry Richard Woodville, you get his income now.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: This is what you're gonna live as.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: Which was nothing.
21:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, nothing.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: They had everything wiped.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: That's when they put in a petition, like pleaded, like, please, can I get my dowry?
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Come on, like, don't be a jerk about it.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Come on, give me my money.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: That is my money.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: Right.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, then yeah, exactly.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: The fine was a thousand pounds, which was a lot because that's still a lot.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: He then he agreed to giving her about a third of her dowry, still pretty shitty.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Which was four thousand pounds.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: So imagine a thousand of it.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: Right.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: You gotta pay back.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: So it's a bummer.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: It's like a quarter of what you actually get.
22:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: It's like taxes.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: Would you do that?
22:13
SPEAKER_00: Would you marry for love, knowing that you would lose everything?
22:17
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: And the next part of what we're gonna say, uh I mean, yes, I would, because uh, she still maintains income from a lot of the lands and everything.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: So, and even aside from that, you've already like attained a good uh way of life.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Like you already have a great title, you already have some money, even if it's not an extraordinary amount of money.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: Like, I've always been a person that I'm like, I truly like money can't buy you happiness.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: Like it can buy you a certain lifestyle, but if you're not surrounded by people you truly enjoy spending your time with, like is it worth it?
22:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, are you that obsessed with material goods that uh the money, I don't know, makes a difference?
22:53
SPEAKER_01: I think you just need enough money to be comfortable.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: And then the rest should be like, do what you want.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: I I just don't think, you know, I would never marry a billionaire who's awful personally.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: It's hard because it was such a different time.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: That was really brave of her to do when no one was doing that.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: So I yeah, I don't know.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: I think to know that you'd have to be in secret and get in trouble for it.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: It says a lot about her character.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: It does.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: It says a lot about her character.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: Right.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, speaking of her character, there um it's funny how like which version you're reading of it.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, this book is called Royal Witches.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, people believe she was a witch.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: She was accused of witchcraft later on in her life.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, of course, you know, take that for what it is, how much she just leaned into more spiritualness and whatnot.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: But um, she again, interesting woman.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very interesting.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: I like this thread, and we're gonna come back to it with the whole witchcraft thing because I it does follow her in her entire life.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, but despite the couple's rocky start, they really do prosper again, thanks to Jiquetta's uh good standing with the royal family.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, even though she had this tiny spat with the king about her marriage, overall she's still earning about seven to eight thousand pounds a year.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: I know.
24:11
SPEAKER_01: So again, like, okay, you had a thousand dollar fine, you took a lot of your dowry, but at the same time, you're still making money just by having your lands.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, and Richard Woodville, in the meantime, he's starting to climb through his military status.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: So, again, that comes with a little bit of money.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, it comes with a ton of honor.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: He proves he's a capable soldier.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, he goes off to certain battles in France, he suppresses some rebellions in England.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Like through all of that, he proves that he's a reliable, good soldier, good husband, um, that he's doing what he can to improve his rank.
24:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, he's showing his loyalty to the crown as well.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't take long for Sir Richard, because he's a knight, Sir Richard Woodville to become Baron, um, Richard, in 1448.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: And King Henry the Sixth is the one that does that for him, which is great.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: Again, that he wasn't super impressed with his background and where he came from, but within a short amount of time, he becomes a baron.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: So it is a pretty quick rise.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, Knight of Garter, Henry the Sixth, like it was a good, it was a good situation, right?
25:17
SPEAKER_00: It was good.
25:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, let's kind of talk about Henry the Sixth and what happens to him.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: And this is uh one of those tangents of the the rumblings of what's going on with the Wars of the Roses.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: So Henry the Sixth is on the throne.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: He's married to Margaret of Anjou, who Jaquetta is very close with.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh, she accompanied Margaret of Anjou when she was traveling overseas to marry Henry the Sixth.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, they were friends.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: So uh Henry VI gets some bad news that he basically he lost territory, he lost land, and he took the news really bad.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: So bad he went into a catatonic state.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:00
SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is he stopped talking, he stopped moving, he was basically in a stupor.
26:09
SPEAKER_02: Right.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: Like no one knew what was wrong with him.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: He couldn't he couldn't eat on his own, he couldn't do anything, he just sat there and and drooled.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna lie, I've always heard of catatonic state, and I truly don't know what that means medically.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: Is it like psychosis?
26:24
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
26:25
SPEAKER_01: Like it's definitely a mental issue.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: I I know that you're pretty much like, again, you can't really function.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's so bizarre.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I it's super weird.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how temporary it is, maybe it differs person to person, but it's not good for your king to be it's not.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: And of course, people see him then as this weak creature, right, who can't, I mean, he literally can't do anything.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: And Margaret Andre, the this woman, she is an also an incredible woman.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, she is fighting for England, she's fighting for her country in the name of her husband.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: She even presents a bill of five articles trying to convince everyone to agree for her to be official regency of England, um having power to be able to control the privy seal, um, all of these, basically being not just a queen consort, but trying to gain some power over England while her husband's completely incapable.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, in this time, too, she also gives birth to a son named Edward.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna call him Prince of Wales, though.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: That's easier to remember for the story.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: He is Edward Prince of Wales.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: She presents him to her catatonic husband, who's just like nice.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: And it's difficult because technically the king was supposed to recognize his son as being legitimate and give him titles and all of that, which is very important in this era.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't happen.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and like you have to think about it too.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: Like, you have to recognize him as the rightful heir.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: You're not just saying, like, oh, that's my son, sure.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: It's like at this point, maybe you have mistresses who also have children.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, you have to be very specific with who is your rightful heir to the throne, who has power, who doesn't, who's illegitimate.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's very strange in this era, but you have to be very clear.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: And when you're catatonic, you can't be that clear.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: It's messy, right?
28:20
SPEAKER_00: Luckily, yeah, Christmas Day, 1454, the king woke up.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: He snapped out of it.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: I have lots of opinions and thoughts that I won't get into.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that that's just some background to understand King Henry VI a little bit.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: And then it was really at this point then where the battle began, 1455.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: The Wars of the Roses broke out.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: How do I simplify the Wars of the Roses?
28:52
SPEAKER_01: It is a lot, like it's a lot.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: When you look at every single thing that happens and every single betrayal and allegiance, it's a lot to take in.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: I think, and I'll let you explain kind of your take because I feel like you know so much more about this.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know about that.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: Don't give me any dumb places.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: Megan's the expert.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: I am not the expert.
29:13
SPEAKER_01: But uh, but what what I was gonna say was, you know, Game of Thrones was largely inspired by the War of Roses, and it's because it's about essentially one family that's splintered off into so many different like subfamilies that you now have infighting and you're not really sure who the rightful ruler is because this is the eldest son, but their son's not fit to rule.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: And like, you know, you go into so many different parts of it where it gets very complicated.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: So that's what the War of the Roses is is like essentially the Yorks versus the Lancasters, and who is supposed to be on the throne in the House of Plantagenets.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: It all starts with Edward III.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: And it's yeah, it's the you're either supportive of the Lancastrian, you're a Lancastrian or you're a Yorkist, the Lancasters or the Yorks.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: The Lancasters are represented by red roses, the Yorks by the white roses.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: That helps with anything, probably not.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this this is like the basic outline of it.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: It goes Edward III, then goes to Richard II, his cousin Henry IV, was like, hell no, and takes the crown.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Richard II dies, it goes to Henry V.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: This is all on the Lancaster side.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the Lancaster side.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: Um then it goes back and forth even more.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: So eventually ends up with Henry VI.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: And now the the question comes down okay, well, he has Edward Prince of Wales, but there's a man named Richard Neville, who is he's relevant to our story, so that's why I'm bringing him up.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: He's the Earl of Warwick, and he is fighting for Edward IV to be on the throne because he is a Yorkist, and Edward IV is a York.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: And that's basically there's I am very much simplifying this.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot more that happens, but all you need to know right now is the Wars of the Roses is still happening, but Edward IV is the king.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes, he is a York, he's the really quick, he's the new king.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: New king.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: Remember, we just had Henry VI.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm so sorry.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: What happened to Henry VI?
31:17
SPEAKER_00: They're like, now you're jumping.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: Henry VI dies, but not like kind of crazy.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: In a battle, he's imprisoned, he's sent to the Tower of London.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Right.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: This is he's no longer catatonic.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: Uh, his wife, Margaret of Anjou, and his son, Prince of Wales, they're in exile.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: Yada yada yada.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, the making it sound boring.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: It's actually really, really it's that's why there's so many books and movies about this, and you can just go into so many different facets of the family, and everyone has their own story.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: Henry the sixth is imprisoned because of all of the back and forth, and who becomes king, and it's all just a game.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh, they imprison him of thrones, of crowns, game of crowns.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: They imprison Henry VI, he's in the Tower of Lended and conveniently dies.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Under very mysterious circumstances.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: Records will show it was natural.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: Many believe he was murdered.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: It was just way too convenient to do away with him.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: So, bringing that back to Richard Woodville's story.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: So, again, 1455 is when the War of Roses breaks out, right?
32:23
SPEAKER_01: And Richard Woodville was originally aligned with the Lancastrian part of this war, but he becomes a Yorkist because he realizes the Lancastrian line, which is the Henry line we're talking about, the catatonic king, he starts to think this is kind of a lost cause over here.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: There's one big defeat, and I'm sorry if I say this wrong, but defeat at Tauton, Taunton, um, where you know us.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, so there's this big defeat that makes him realize like, I think I picked the loser.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: So he wants to be a winner.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, who doesn't in history?
32:56
SPEAKER_01: So he wants to go over to the Yorkist side.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: So there's the newly crowned Yorkist king, which is Edward IV, and he uh Richard Woodville essentially arranges his daughter, Elizabeth Woodville, to marry the new king of the York.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: This is so much scandal.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: Did they meet passing by in the forest, which some stories will tell us?
33:18
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we like to believe that story.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: Like Cinderella.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that she was just with her two sons from a previous marriage.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: Um, she was married to John Gray.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: First.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: First.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: So she was Elizabeth Gray.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
33:35
SPEAKER_01: I was making a joke.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: I was like, not quite Elizabeth Black.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: You're just Elizabeth Gray.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: Is the first series.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: And then it turns into Elizabeth.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: We get darker 50 Shades of Gray.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: 50 Shades of Elizabeth.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: Be here all night.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: Um is that what this episode's gonna be called?
33:51
SPEAKER_00: 50 Shades of Elizabeth.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: Let's not.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: We'll we'll think of a clever title soon.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, but so so the year is 1464 when this marriage happens.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: And shocker, it's also a secret wedding.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: Kind of love that for them.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: I kind of like like it in general in this era.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: We see this like quite a few times, I think, in the 14th, 15th century, 16th century.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: It's like, I don't know if it's like they again, because they're doing it for love and they're embarrassed of the title aspect, or if they just know there's so much controversy over alliances.
34:27
SPEAKER_01: People won't approve it.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I kind of like the idea of just like, hey, secret marriage, very romanticized.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: And this is the part of medieval history that feels romantic.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: I think this is why we have these fantasies of the battles and the love, and it's for the princess.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: This is where it's stemmed.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: This is the true Disney princess story.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: A little bit.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, Edward IV is king.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: He falls in love with this woman who's a quite frankly, like a nobody.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: Like she's got some ties to things, and yeah, her father's got some titles and whatnot.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: But in the grand scheme of things, she's not of any measure to be like worthy to be marrying a king.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: And he was warned.
35:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, it's not like he was naive about that.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: He was warned, like, hey, this Elizabeth Woodville is not your same status.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, she's not a queen or princess from another land.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, like this isn't not gonna work.
35:21
SPEAKER_00: So secret ceremony.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: Secret ceremony.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: The way that his her mother married down, she married way up.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Married way up.
35:29
SPEAKER_00: This the ceremony was in their like local little church.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: It was just her father, actually didn't even know at the time that her mother was a witness, the officiate was a witness, and then it was Edward and Elizabeth.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: They spent a charming little week out in their cottage to like honeymoon.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh it was consummated, confirmed by the mother, and then outrage when people found out that it's just like a Cinderella story.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: It really, oh my god, it's a Cinderella story, kind of, yeah.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm just thinking of Ever After when they're all shocked that.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I will speak so.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: I love Ever After.
36:11
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, um, but this is a little great for Richard Woodville because in March uh four, or excuse me, yeah, 1466.
36:19
SPEAKER_01: So two years after the marriage took place, a secret marriage, um, he was then appointed to Lord Treasurer of England.
36:28
SPEAKER_01: And on that same year in May, he was made first Earl Rivers.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: And this is important, I think, because we talk about a lot of passing downs of titles, right?
36:38
SPEAKER_01: Where you're like, oh, the something Duke of Norfolk, I'm elected Duke of Somerset and whatever.
36:43
SPEAKER_01: And you kind of inherit these titles, and there's the first and the second and the third.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: But when you're the first of a new, I don't know what you call it.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: Is it a house?
36:51
SPEAKER_01: Is it a territory?
36:53
SPEAKER_00: A county?
36:55
SPEAKER_00: A county?
36:56
SPEAKER_00: Maybe, yeah.
36:56
SPEAKER_00: But there are locations, right?
36:58
SPEAKER_00: So like an area.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, someone educate us.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: I know.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Someone tell us exactly what we're doing.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Someone will.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: We all we will.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: It's fine.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: I love the feedback.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: Bring it on.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: We'll be corrected.
37:08
SPEAKER_01: But when you're the first of anything, right?
37:10
SPEAKER_01: That means like someone carved out a specific position for you.
37:13
SPEAKER_01: Like you didn't inherit this from a father, like you didn't just come into this title over time.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: Someone made this first distinction, first title for you.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, heck yeah, his son-in-law is the freaking king now.
37:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: He just skyrocketed.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: It's it's a yeah, a very big like rose to another stratosphere type of thing.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: And not only does he stop there, and he doesn't just stop at first Earl Rivers, he then becomes the constable of England in 1467.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: So just a year after all those other titles.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: And then he's able to give his children all these advantageous marriages.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: Because his first few children, the older children, it was like again, oh Elizabeth Woodville, you're not worthy of the king, blah, blah.
37:54
SPEAKER_01: But as like the children, you know he had 14 kids with Jakenna.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: Jaketta and Jakenna was busy.
38:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they had a lot of children.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, so all like I won't say all, but many of those kids were just like, okay, these are the the family you want to marry into now.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: This is the big new rising family.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: So he was able to arrange tons of advantageous marriages for his kids.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: I say tons because there's so many kids.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: There's and for that day and age, I think there was 12 who ended up surviving.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: I think.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: The statistics alone on that are impressive.
38:29
SPEAKER_00: Because I don't know, we think back to other queens and stories of just how difficult it was to not only give birth, but to have a living child and have the someone to, you know, your lineage to continue on.
38:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: That was such a struggle for so many people.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: It's always been a struggle, right, for so many people.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: But then to see Jacetta, some people accuse her witchcraft like witchcraft comes back at this point as why they were so successful with all of this.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: Because it's like, okay, Jaquetta, you marry wealthy, and then he dies, and then you marry for love, and now your family is just skyrocketing through the social classes.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: Now your daughter's the queen of England.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, now your daughter does that.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: And all your kids get these advantageous marriages, you know, beyond just surviving childhood.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, it's like that that would, if you were a jealous person, be like, witch.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: She's a witch.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: She's a witch.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: You can't just get this stuff naturally.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, so again, more accusations of witchcraft going around, uh, Jaquetta's kind of peripheral.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: But um that that doesn't that doesn't mean everything was hunky-dory for them.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean everything just went along swimmingly.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: Because soon, when you get this much success, you're bound to have a rival.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: And we mentioned the rival earlier.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: But Richard Neville, the Earl of Warwick, who fancied himself the kingmaker, literally, because he was the one deciding who was supposed to be on the throne.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: He's the one that comes forward and says, you know what, this upstart family who shouldn't even be here in the first place, has no right to guide the king, should have no power in this dynasty, should have no like power over England.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: So he is the first one to like kind of come forward and say, I'm putting an end to this.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: Also, yes, if Kingmaker sounds familiar, if you're thinking of Philippa Gregory's book, The Kingmaker's Daughter, it is one of the same.
40:26
SPEAKER_00: Same, same guy.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, anyway, so so Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick, Kingmaker, he leads this rebellion in 1469.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: So this is only two years after um Earl Rivers, Richard Woodville, becomes the Constable of England.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: So he ends up defeating King Edward IV's army at the Battle of Edgecott.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: Edgecoat.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
40:54
SPEAKER_01: Open for interpretation with that spelling.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, so he officially is like standing up to King Edward, he's standing up to Richard Woodville, and in that time during that that battle, he ends up capturing both Richard Woodville and his son John, and they're taken to this place called, again, sorry for the pronunciation, but he he's get he gets taken to Cheapstow.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: Chepstow.
41:18
SPEAKER_00: Which is in Kenslowworth.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: I saw that name thrown around.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: Yes, England.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: They're in England.
41:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, so and throughout this time, the the Rivers clan, the uh the Woodville family really falls from grace.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: So the River's estates are plundered.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: All of these people that are really loyal to Warwick and probably a little jealous of the Woodville rise to fame.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, they're really their only intention is to really just destroy this quote unquote upstart family.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: So again, estates plundered, like everyone kind of separated.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's a terrible time for the family.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: And Woodville himself, Richard Woodville, because he's the head of the family, is accused of deceitful, covetous rule and guiding.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure what that means, but I think it essentially means guiding.
42:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like rule and guiding.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think it means like he's you know trying to rule what he can of England, and if he's not doing that, he's at least guiding the king to whatever.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: So this reminds me a lot of our uh episode about the Black Dinner.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: Oh, where it's like all of a sudden someone comes into the frame that might take over in the future and whose family might take over in the future.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: So you have to just like cut it off.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: Like, how can we make sure that they are uh kind of nipped in the bud and they don't grow any further and this is it after they had 14 children?
42:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, but the so um so Earl Rivers, Richard Woodville, and his son John are then executed swiftly without a trial.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: No trial, yeah.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: Seems like that should be illegal.
42:58
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: The date is August 12th, 1469.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, and this happens in New Coventry at Gosford Green, which I believe is in that same area we just referenced.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it was it was again, there's so little detail about what actually happened.
43:14
SPEAKER_01: We just know a little bit about the accusations, essentially saying, like, oh, like you're you're seizing power.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: And during this tumultuous time of War and the Rose of the Roses, kind of anything goes.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: Like, if I think they believed a lot in the divine right to rule.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: So they believed if you suppress your enemies, if you come forward as the victor, you're kind of destined to rule.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that was a big belief back then of like, I think there's a legitimate claim to the throne that I have, and if I come forward as the victor, like I get the throne, period.
43:47
SPEAKER_00: And that's how a lot of it went down.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: That's how Henry the Oh gosh, I'm going back now.
43:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's no Henry the Fourth took over Richard II and then Edward IV took the throne when it could have been Edward Prince of Wales.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: He dies on bat at battle when he's 17.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: And then, not to spoil alert it, but to fast forward a little bit, right?
44:12
SPEAKER_00: Once Edward IV is gone and he dies, that's where it turns into Richard III.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: His brother finally gets the crown.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: And that's how we end up with Henry the Seventh.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: Then the Tudor dynasty defeated Richard III on the Battle of Bosworth, which ended the Wars of the Roses, and the Tudor dynasty started because Henry VIII claimed his Lancastrian line, which was weak.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: It was almost weak.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: It was weak lineage.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: But he had a lot of supporters who made a fair argument that he had just as much claim to the crown.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: And but he had the power and the physicalness of actually overthrowing King Richard III.
44:55
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, that was a fast-forward of what happens, but but to kind of reflect back, that was the way that they would have to get the way that they would win would be to imprison, execute, or kill on the battlefield.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: And we see this throughout time.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: And again, we won't get into too much of the future things that happen because this story's about Richard Woodville.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: But we do see it with King Henry VIII's paranoia of like who's out to get him and his obsession with having a son and solidifying his line.
45:26
SPEAKER_01: And then the same thing with his daughter Elizabeth I when she's on the throne of like, oh, Queen Mary of, you know, or Mary Queen of Scots has like a claim somewhat to this throne.
45:35
SPEAKER_01: So I have to make sure she's suppressed.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:38
SPEAKER_01: It's like there's there's such a paranoia that exists throughout the centuries because, again, they believe the rightful person to rule will eventually win.
45:47
SPEAKER_01: So they're constantly trying to guard their their uh success.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: They're trying to constantly prove that they're supposed to be on the throne, and that's by a lot of violence and a lot of killing and a lot of execution.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: And it's a very scary time to oppose a king or queen.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: And it makes sense, in my opinion, and this is only my personal opinion of why Henry VIII was so insecure with his title and was so paranoid as he said, because with all this messiness, it was the lineage was not incredibly strong in comparison to the Plantagenists, for example, that's a whole nother episode.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, we're talking about Duke of Clarence's side, Margaret Pohl.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: I I could go on and on, and I could just be naming off names and spinning things out, but I realize that's not the purpose of this episode, so I will try to focus.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: But all that said, it it's sad because it was completely just a political move.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: If you're wondering what did Richard Woodville do to be beheaded, as well as his son, John, he was just existing and taking and rising and perhaps taking advantage of his newly acclaimed uh footing in in um court, in court and royalty and with his daughter.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: But was he a bad person?
47:12
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say so.
47:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean, again, so like all you can accuse him of is ambition, you know, and and rising too fast with the wrong people on the opposite side.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, in terms of real uh again, grievances, real accusations, it's like, ooh, I I think it's a pretty loose case.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: But just like a lot of things during this time, again, we'll we whether we refer to Mary Queen of Scots or Black Dinner or any of these, it's like it's just like you're a threat to the throne, and that's it.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, this is where I get confused because typically there needs to be a some type of trial.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh, trial, yeah.
47:48
SPEAKER_00: But there needs the accusation has typically comes down to treason, right?
47:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: And they could probably that's probably what they argued is that it was treason because it was Lancaster's versus York, but he was York and his and there was a York king.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: So he wasn't being treasonous to anyone on the throne.
48:05
SPEAKER_00: No, that was his son-in-law who was on the throne.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: It honestly came down to Warwick and his supporters who again, that's what are what were the charges?
48:14
SPEAKER_00: What were the treason?
48:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay, treason against who?
48:17
SPEAKER_02: Right.
48:18
SPEAKER_00: Treason against someone not on the throne.
48:20
SPEAKER_00: That's where this whole story just turns me over.
48:24
SPEAKER_00: And you have to think about Elizabeth Woodville.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: What an odd position for her because she's queen and her family's name is being dragged through the mud, and her father and her brother were executed.
48:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: Without obviously any say on her side, because that that wouldn't have happened.
48:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:42
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's odd, and I feel for her.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the War of Roses.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: And that is your first lesson on the Wars of Roses.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: Tune in next time.
48:52
SPEAKER_01: We did have a few episodes about War of Roses.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: You know what I think we should do is we should actually um post something on our social media that just highlights all of our tutor episodes in general.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, just so if you are curious about uh other uh family lines here, like other rivalries, other things that happen with the same story, like I think it'd be helpful to just do a quick little here's our tutor episodes to refer to.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: Because again, it it they're they're they're messy when you look at the broad context, but the more we learn about this over the years, the more we're able to connect things, and it's really helpful.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: So for us for our listeners going forward, because it's it's convoluted.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: It is it's really fun.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: And I had those a few moments of those tonight as we were discussing our notes and trying to get the plan together.
49:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, I had a few of those aha moments, like, wait a second, right?
49:41
SPEAKER_00: That was that person.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the fun, and personally, that's why I really like this era when you start to pull back the layers and figure out each section of the family tree and who's who and what their story was.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: But uh I think that we're probably gonna have more episodes in this era, so safe to say it was an era of execution, that's for sure.
50:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh we've had some, there's more to come.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: But I think it was really important to look over Richard Woodville and his son, John Woodville, because they were big names during this era and lost their heads over reasons we still can't explain.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: They did.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, I mean, they created a line that would live for a very long time.
50:27
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, it it's like even though Richard Woodville's life, and he wasn't to be clear, he wasn't very young when he was executed.
50:34
SPEAKER_01: He was probably in his mid sixties.
50:37
SPEAKER_01: So again, it's not one of those stories that's like, oh, how tragic he died when he was in his 30s.
50:41
SPEAKER_01: It's still tragic, I think.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: His son was young.
50:43
SPEAKER_01: But his son was up in what twenties probably.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: Maybe, yeah.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: I mean well, I mean, in that era, maybe 40s.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: You think?
50:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe.
50:51
SPEAKER_01: He's in his 60s.
50:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, but but regardless, it's I see what you're saying.
50:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's about also the fact that again, like see he died in 69.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're right.
51:00
SPEAKER_01: But you know, with without Richard Woodville, it's like King Henry VIII is part of his line.
51:05
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
51:06
SPEAKER_01: Like he's a great grandson of him, so it's like all of these things have ripple effects over time.
51:11
SPEAKER_01: So it is very interesting to see how it all pieces together.
51:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and you're totally right.
51:15
SPEAKER_00: He was 64, so yeah, John would have been not like in his 40s.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: Right.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right, right.
51:21
SPEAKER_01: And just if which again, modern day, both of those ages are still young, but back in the past.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: Back then, we were not young.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: It's time to go.
51:28
SPEAKER_00: That's true.
51:29
SPEAKER_00: Like, of our time to go.
51:32
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: Elizabeth Black.
51:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's me.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: That's you.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: There's so many Elizabeth, not Elizabeth Gray.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: Don't be confused.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: Uh, any final words?
51:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go have more of that shepherd's pie we prepared earlier.