Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / EP327 | Jonathan Hanson on Writing, Overland Conservation, and Land Cruisers

Transcript

EP327 | Jonathan Hanson on Writing, Overland Conservation, and Land Cruisers · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I'm your host,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Ashley Giordano. As Overland Journal approaches its 20-year anniversary, we're
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: catching up with some of the people who've helped shape
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: this community, sharing the stories, lessons, and adventures that brought
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: us here. And with that said, my guest today is
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: an author and writer, teacher, guide, hunter, ecologist, co-founder of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Overland Expo, an elected fellow of the Royal Geographical Society,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: and Explorers Club. He also co-founded Overland Journal in 2007
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: and was its executive editor from 2007 to 2011. Welcome,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Jonathan Hansen, to the podcast.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: So you and Roseanne are an absolute powerhouse, so thank
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: you for taking the time to join us today, Jonathan. Sure.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: And a special thanks to Honcook Dynapro Tire, for supporting
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: this week's Overland Journal podcast. Be sure to visit expeditionportal.com
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: to see our features on the recent Honcook experience at
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: the fourth annual Bronco Stampede in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee. We
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: took a look at the full line of DynaPro tires
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: and some great Ford Broncos from all over the country
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: as they gathered at this community event of enthusiasts and
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: top brands. Thanks again, Han Cook.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: You've owned over a dozen four-wheel drive vehicles, and I'd
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: like to pick your brain on that subject. What's your favorite,
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: and which ones do you still own?
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Sure. Well, the one I still own is easy. I've
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: got a 1973 Land Cruiser FJ40, which I bought in 1978.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: It was five years old. It was owned by the
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: original owner. who bought it on my recommendation. And in 1978,
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: he sold it to me for $ 3, 500, which I thought
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: was an outrageous price at the time, just ridiculous. And
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: of course, it's now insured for 10 times that. So
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: it turned out to be a good investment. And it's
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: been my number one vehicle. It was our only vehicle
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: for several years after Roseanne and I were married. We
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: had our first date in it. So she's often told
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: me that if I ever sell it, I go with it.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: So I guess it'll stay around. And that's still our
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: main vehicle. We've cycled through others. Our favorite right now
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: is a 1993 HCJ-75, a Land Cruiser Troopy, the one
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: that isn't sold in the U.S. We bought that in Australia,
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: sight unseen, off the internet, in 2016. had a bunch
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: of work done on it, including having the roof sawn
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: off and a pop top put on it before we
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: ever saw it. And fortunately, when we finally did see it,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: it was in as good a shape as we'd been
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: led to believe. So that's been with us since then,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: 11 years. We did several journeys around Australia in that,
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Tasmania as well, and then shipped it to Africa and
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: drove across Southern Africa and then shipped it to the
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: US after that. So that's how it wound up here. Interestingly,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: We managed to do several Australian trips, the Tasmanias, South Africa,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: shipped it across the Indian Ocean with no trouble, shipped
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: it across the Atlantic with no trouble. And the fellow
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: who unloaded it off the container in the port in
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Texas managed to back it into a garbage dumpster and
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: put a giant crease on the side. So we had
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: to have that fixed. It was a little bit ignominious.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: But we're now using it to lead trips now and
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: then here in the U.S.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Very nice. Yeah.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: And then we've had a couple of several Land Rovers.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: We had a 110 Tethynus version that we loved and
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: are sorry we sold, but that's how it goes with
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: vehicles like that. And then we also have a 2014 Tundra,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: which is kind of our chore house building vehicle.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Nice. I love a Tundra.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good truck. It's been a really good truck.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Fantastic.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: A couple of sports cars in there as well, not
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: just overland vehicles. I fulfilled a lifelong dream and bought
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: a Porsche 911 several years ago. Had that for a
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: while and sold that and bought a Triumph TR6 and
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: had that for a few years, but sold that too.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: We live seven miles down a dirt road now. It's
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: not really good country for an old English sports car.
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  Speaker 1: That's fair.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: And you're in, where in the world are you? I
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: know you were living in Alaska for a bit. We were.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: We finally decided to sell the cabin in Alaska. We
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: loved being there. But in terms of the business we're
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: doing now, it was a little too far out of
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: the way. So we sold that and Roseanne found us
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: a beautiful piece of property, 36 acres in the foothills
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: of the Dragoon Mountains, which are about 60 miles east
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: of Tucson. It's the place where the Apache leader Cochise
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: hung out and made fools of the U.S. Army in
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: the 1860s. So we're building a house there right now.
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: At the moment, if you can see behind me, it's
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: just a giant shell. No interior walls or anything yet,
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: but we love being out here. It's lots of wildlife.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: And since we're essentially natural history writers from the start,
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: it's nice to be back out where we got have
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  Speaker 2: a resident rattlesnake in the bird yard who ignores us.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: A little warmer, too.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, definitely a little warmer. Although it's nicer than Tucson,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: we're at 4,800 feet, so we get a little break
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: from global warming here, at least for a while.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Good stuff. Yeah. So you've written about everything from sea
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: kayaking to animal tracking, reptiles to back-road adventuring.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: What were you like as a child? Were there any
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: previews of this life ahead?
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  Speaker 2: Sure. My parents, my mother and stepfather, moved from Tucson
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: out to a rural neighborhood northeast of Tucson, very near
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: Sabino Canyon. So while it was a neighborhood, it was
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: very close to the mountains. There was a creek that
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: ran within a couple of hundred yards of the house.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So there were plenty of opportunities for me to get out.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: And for me, it was sort of an escape because
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: my stepfather and I did not get along. So he
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: was happy to have me out of the house and
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: I was happy to be out of the house. So
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: that's how I started spending a lot of time outdoors.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Did my first solo backpacking trip when I was nine
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: and just went from there.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: Wow. And then you headed to the University of Arizona
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: at some point. Tell me about that.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: I did, but not too late. I was and always
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: have been a terrible student. I'm good at being an autodidact,
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: but when someone else is teaching me, I tend to
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: daydream and look out the windows. I barely made it
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: through high school and then took a break and did
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: a lot of work and didn't get back into college
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: until I was 26, 27, at the U of A
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: and met Roseanne.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: There.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: She was 10 years younger, so she had just started.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: And that, we were introduced by, we like to say,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: a drug smuggler from New Jersey who has since become,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: stayed a dear friend. We still are in contact with him.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: And we met and just everything just clicked. We were
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: married within six months after we met. Yeah. So, and
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: I'm lucky to be here.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: What were you studying?
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Ecology and evolutionary biology. And Roseanne did a double major
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: in ecology and evolutionary biology and journalism. So she is
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: the exact opposite of me as a student. Straight A,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: magna cum laude, all that sort of thing. So yeah,
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: different talents there for sure.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: What were some things you remember from that time in
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: terms of what you were learning or subject matter that
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: really stick out?
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: During college days? Or just.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: At the university, both Roseanne and I were lucky enough
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: to learn under some of the last of the great
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: field biologists that the U of A had. These were
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: guys who had been in their heyday in the 1940s
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: and 50s and 60s and were now approaching retirement. But
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: they were the ones who actually had always worked in
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: the field. They didn't do computer modeling. They went out
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: and trapped birds and trapped animals and did direct observation.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: which has always been the way we prefer to do
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: things like that as well. So it was lucky to
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: study under those people. And they're gone now. And that
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: college has changed a lot. So we were glad to
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: go through it when we did.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: How does that inform your travel today and what you do?
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: It informs it heavily because we are experiential. We like
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: to see and manipulate people. things. We don't just observe.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: We like to collect things when we're out, as long
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: as it's legal. We like to be involved rather than
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: just stand on the sidelines and look. So if you
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: see our house, it's full of things like shed snakeskins
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: and bird's nests and rocks and such things, which makes
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: it a real pain to move. But it's nice to
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: have when you're in one place.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow. That's so good. I love that. I think,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: you know, getting that tangible hands on, you're probably realizing.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: about it but you're also observing and touching and feeling
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: and smelling and we're maybe losing that a little bit
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  Speaker 1: with all of the online online things so true it's important.
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  Speaker 2: But even out even out in the field you know
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: the the mantra now is is the whole take nothing
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: but photographs, leave nothing but footprints. Obviously, you have to
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: stay within legal limits, but we think it's a huge
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: mistake not to let kids out in nature and let
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: them collect rocks and snakes and look at them and
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: bird's nests and whatever. I think there's a real need
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: for that. Once kids are told don't touch, then they
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: lose interest and you're going to lose them as future
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: advocates of the wild if you.
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  Speaker 1: Do that yeah i guess there's a separation that develops
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  Speaker 1: there because it's like a not a part of all
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: of us and out there you know.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah that's yeah quite true so we're big advocates of
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: that and when when rosanne does her field arts camps
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: which is is one of our our businesses right now
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  Speaker 2: we we encourage getting out and collecting and drawing and
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: painting and journaling to plant that in your brain.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Lovely. I like it. You worked as resident naturalists and
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: caretakers for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife at Brown Canyon
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: and managed a guest ranch, nature lodge, and taught dozens
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: of nature and writing workshops, led safaris in Kenya and Tanzania.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: How has your relationship with conservation evolved over time?
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Well, that started very early when I was seven and
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: started exploring around the house I mentioned that was out
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: in a rural neighborhood. And shortly thereafter, I started noticing
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: places that I played in before were being bulldozed and
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: houses were being built up and roads being put in.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: So by the time I was nine, I was well
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: aware that pieces of the desert around my home were
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: disappearing permanently. So that was the seed of probably all
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: my future conservation ethic was that sense of loss. And
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: of course, it's much, much worse now than it was.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Tucson has metastasized over the last 40, 50 years. One
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: reason we left.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Right, right. So you've had a lot of experiences, though,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: like reading through, you know, your articles and websites and
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: things like that as just like such a beautiful, well-rounded,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: you have so many different interests and all the conservation ecology.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I can tell that that seed was planted
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: and that informed the direction of your life ever since.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Someone years ago asked, we were talking to someone, Roseanne
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: was with me, and the person asked, so Roseanne, If
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: I can get this right. So are you guys polymaths
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: or do you just have really short attention spans? And
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: that pretty much encapsulates how we attack life, I think.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Either one. We do have a lot of different interests
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: and enjoy doing a lot of different things. It can
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: be a pain at times.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: I think it keeps life interesting, though. It always keeps
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: life interesting. Like you're a lifelong learner and diving into
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: the details of all the things you've been writing about
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: or are interested in. Yeah. I don't know. I love that. Yeah.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Do you think that there's a way or how do
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: you feel that conservation and ecology and overlanding can work together?
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Well, I think they have to work together. And I
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: think they are working together pretty well. The only conflict
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: that I see is The whole issue of roadless areas,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: you know, that's a big issue going on right now.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: There are people who are overlanders who are afraid of
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: roads being closed and trails being lost and access being lost.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: I don't see that as an issue. The lower 48
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: states is 3% wilderness. Only 3% of it is protected
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: as wilderness. If I were king of the world, I
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: would probably triple that. No one in the US or
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: anywhere else is ever going to run out of roads
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: to explore. So I think there's a lot of fear
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: about road closures and loss of access that just doesn't
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: make any sense. Much more worrisome to me is the
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: access is being added so that the last old growth
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: forests we have can be cut down. More mining can
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: move into places. That's a far bigger danger than than
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: road closures in my opinion. So I consider myself both
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: an owner of three, four-wheel drive vehicles and a radical ecologist.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: And I think you can be both. I don't think.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Either one excludes the other. I think so too. Yeah,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: that can coexist for sure.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Someone once asked me to sum up my politics in
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: one sentence. And I thought for a minute and then said,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: I think the U.S. needs more aircraft carriers and more
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: wilderness areas. So that kind of illustrates where my brain is.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: Interesting. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on that. That's always... Yeah.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: I'm going to switch gears a little bit and go
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: back in time. Bring us to the origins of Overland
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Journal Magazine. If I was a fly on the wall
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: at that time, what would I see?
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Well, the very first... you would have seen. That would
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: have been at Roseanne's and my old place that we
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: owned for several years, which was a very, very remote,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: off-the-grid property southwest of Tucson. And at the time, I'd
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: known Scott Brady for a year or two, met through
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: the website, and we'd talked about various things. And he
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: was actually visiting one time, Roseanne was in Africa. This
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: was when she was still the director of the African
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Conservation Center. And I'd been thinking about, since I was
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: a writer, I'd been thinking about the idea of a
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: magazine that would be centered around overlanding. So as Scott
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: and I were talking one day, I said, have you
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: ever just thought about publishing a magazine? And his eyes
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: lit up and he said, well, yes, as a matter
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: of fact, I have. And that was it. We just
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: took off from there. Since I was a penurious freelance
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: writer at the time, and he had already had a
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: couple of successful businesses, he became the motivating force in
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: terms of economics. And then I was the manager in
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: terms of the writing and so forth. And then Stephanie
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Brady did an absolutely fabulous job of laying out the
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: magazine right from the start. I think she went into
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: it pretty cold, but she did a really good job.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: So we struggled for several years and it was still
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: a new thing in the US, as you know. When
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: we started that magazine, there were probably a dozen people
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: in the US who knew what a roof tent was
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: or a fridge or any of that stuff. It was
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: still just completely unknown. So After a couple of years,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: we realized we needed a little bit more publicity. And
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Roseanne figured out a really good way to do it.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: And that was when she started the Overland Expo in 2009,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: which was immediately successful. We had 900 people show up
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: the first year. And I think the last one in Flagstaff,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: they had 25,000.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: So, yes, it definitely exploded. And once that was going,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: then things started going better.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: When you were talking about the magazine at the beginning,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: like in the departments and things like that, you were
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: all brainstorming about that. What were the inspirations?
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Well, it's been a long time ago, 20 years. We
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: knew basically what we wanted to do. We knew we
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: wanted to rely heavily on vehicle reviews. And we knew
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: we wanted to publish stories about trips. So that was
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: probably the triumvirate that drove the main body of the
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: magazine and probably still does for all I know. So
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: the first issue had a wonderful story by Graham Jackson
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: about the trip he and his wife took from London
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: to Cape Town. So that was our main travel feature then.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: And then we did I don't even remember the equipment
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: review we did the first time. But that became a
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: regular feature as well as vehicle reviews. So it just
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: grew organically from that. It was pretty easy. The focus
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: of the magazine was obvious. So choosing what to cover
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: was pretty easy as well.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: In your executive editor position, what were some of the
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: responsibilities and some of the highlights and challenges during that time?
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Well, the challenge was that I was it. I had
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: no assistant editors, no editorial assistants. So everything that came
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: out of the magazine was my responsibility. Every letter, every misspelling,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: every grammatical error. That was my job in addition to
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: finding people to write for us, parsing articles, rejecting the
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: ones that wouldn't work. I realized quickly in that position
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: and have held to this ever since that I would
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: much prefer working with an amateur writer who had a
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: really good story rather than an experienced writer and a
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: good writer who had a bad story. Because a bad
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: story is a bad story no matter how well it's written.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: But a brand new writer with a really good idea,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I could take a manuscript and work on it, tweak it,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: and turn it into a story that was not only
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: exciting but also read well. So that was always my preference,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: to look for a good story first and look for
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: good writing second. And a lot of times I was
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: lucky and got both, of course.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Were there some stories during that time that still stand
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: out today?
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Individual stories I might have a hard time coming up with.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Certainly in terms of individual writer, making contact with Tom Shepard,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: the Englishman who wrote the Vehicle Dependent Expedition Guide. That
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: was a highlight, a life highlight for me because I'd
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: been following him since the mid-1980s, seeing his stories in magazines.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: And so making contact with him and having him write
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: for us was wonderful. And then subsequently, Roseanne and I
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: met him in 2009, I think, and we became very,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: very close friends. He's still a very dear friend of ours,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: and we visit him every year when we go to England.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: So that was one of the best things I got
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: out of being with Overland Journal. And his wife became
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: dear friends, Chris Marzoni, Pasquale Benedetto, Tim and Kelsey Huber,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: many others, many other relationships that outlasted my time with
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: the magazine and are still a really good relationship.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about Tom Shepard because
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: you collaborated with him on the reprint of the Vehicle
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Dependent Expedition Guide. And I was curious during that time
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: what you learned from each other.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I learned from him the incredible attention to detail
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: that characterizes a former pilot test pilot in the Royal
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Air Force. Obviously, as a test pilot, you need to
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: be detail-oriented. And Tom Shepard is nothing if not detail-oriented.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: If you leaf through Vehicle Dependent Expedition Guide, or VDEG
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: as we call it, that becomes obvious because he has
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: an entire chapter on oil viscosities and things like that,
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: that most people would just roll their eyes and fall
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: asleep during, but it's important stuff. So I learned that
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: from him. And Well, mostly what he learned from me
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: was the incredible variety of products that were starting to
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: come out. I think one of my chief contributions to
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: that version of the book was to deal with all
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: the products that he never used, never has used, never
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: wanted to use. He's not into 12-volt fridges or rooftop
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: tents or winches even, I sort of brought all that stuff,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: my knowledge from doing the magazine into the book and
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: that wound up expanding it by, gosh, I think 30%
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: or so. So I think that was a good contribution
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: and it made the book a lot more relevant to
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: North American readers. Tom finally decided after he turned 90
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: to start slowing down a little bit and every single...
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: issue or edition of VDAC, he insisted on updating thoroughly.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: And that was getting harder and harder for us to do.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: And we were looking at having to do a major
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: revision with the upcoming popularity of electric vehicles. So that
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: would have required a massive, an entirely new level of
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: input into the book. And he just decided that it
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: was time to let that go. So the last one
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: was printed in, I think, 2001, 2002. So once those
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: were sold out, then that was it. Yes, it's still
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: available on eBay at sometimes usurious prices, but it is available.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: And it's still, I would say, the last edition of
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: that book is still 95% relevant. Not that many things
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: have changed. Car models have changed. There are new types
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: of fridges on the market, but all the basics are
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: still the basics.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Same with his 4x4 driving book, which is still
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: in print. He's revising that as we speak, actually, to
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: do a new print on that. He's contributed a couple
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: of sections to that book. I contributed the section on winching,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: which he's never carried, and I contributed the section on
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: high-lift jacks, the ARB jack. which he also doesn't, has
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: never used, but realized that they needed to be in there.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So that was fun as well. What are some
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: resources that you've looked to as your formative four-wheel drive
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: or expedition or overland manual?
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Well, most of mine, after I got The FJ-40, it
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: was all trial and error. I mean, I went out
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: and just did stupid things and learned by failing. So
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: that was my approach at the time. In terms of overlanding,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: there's a book that came out in 1974, I think,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: by a man named John Steele Gordon, and it was
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: titled simply Overlanding. And that was the seminal book about overlanding.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: So I got a copy of that sometime probably in
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: the late 1980s. And that then became my wishbook after
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: that to start thinking about longer expeditions and trips on
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: other continents. And then in the meantime, I started writing
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: for Outside Magazine and became a correspondent there. And they
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: started sending me to Africa. I went to Africa for
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: the First time for outside in 1999, I think. And
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: that involved a lot of four-wheel drive trips. So I
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: started learning more and more about other continents and other vehicles,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: especially Land Overs, of course, doing that. So that was
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: a good experience.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: What were the assignments in Africa for outside?
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Most mostly travel. The first time I went was I
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: spent two months in Zambia and Zimbabwe and Namibia almost
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: completely covering walking safaris. No, not this. These weren't driving safaris.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: These were camps where you just got out and hiked
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: with a guide with a gun. And that was, that
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: was fabulous. I love doing that. And then later on did,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: did several long, long trips. by Land Rover and even aircraft.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: So covered quite a bit of different stuff, mostly in
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: Southern Africa, but a couple of times, once or twice,
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I went to East Africa as well for outside, the
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Sulu and some other places in there. So that was
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: my real introduction to Africa there.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Great. And then obviously you've been back. Yes, we've been back.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Many times since. Ironically, I think the first half dozen
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: trips at least that Roseanne and I took to Africa,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: we did separately. I was doing journalism and she was
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: doing conservation work. So as I said, she was the
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: director of the African Conservation Center, I think it was called,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: I get confused, which was based in Kenya. So she
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: did a lot of work with the Maasai communities in
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: East Africa at the time. So we only finally went
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: to Africa together, I think, in 2005, 2006. And then
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: since then, we've done most of our trips together.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: What are a few most memorable trips that you've been
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: on in Africa? Like if you could recreate one, which
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: one would you do again?
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Well, actually, the last one we did, which was just
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: across Southern Africa, was a wonderful trip. We were with
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Graham and Connie. We had, we had almost matching Land
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Cruiser troop carriers, which we had, which we had both
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: bought in Australia and done, done several trips there together.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: And then we shipped them in the same container to
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Durban and headed and headed out from there. Basically just wandered,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: which is our favorite way to travel. We'd not have
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: an itinerary. We knew what we wanted to see and
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: basically where we wanted to go, but it was really
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: just day by day. traveling. If we didn't get as
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: far as we thought we would, it was no trouble.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: We never worried about making a schedule. We had a
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: few reservations at lodges we had to make, but mostly
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: it was just wandering, which is our very most favorite
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: way to travel.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: It's the best.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: If you can do it. That one was a standout.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. Nice. So that was a standout. And then
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: we also did a trip in Egypt, which was more
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: of a more of a science trip there was a
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: in 1912 two men from from Arizona did a trip
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: for the Carnegie Institution surveying the western deserts of Egypt
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: and almost exactly a century later literally sometimes to the
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: day we recreated that trip with the great granddaughter of
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: one of the men who had the journals and the
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: photographs and we did what's called repeat photography which was
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: to go to the same spots they had photographed and
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: set up a camera so that it captured the exact
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: same scene at the exact same aspect to record what
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: changes had occurred over the course of a hundred years
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: That was fascinating. Sometimes, obviously, there was a lot of degradation,
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: but at the same time, we found some of the
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: monuments had been significantly restored. So it wasn't all a
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: matter of things getting worse. Some of it was things
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: getting much better. So that was a great trip, too.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: And that was an Explorers Club flag expedition as well,
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: which was cool. Nice.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I love the historical aspect so much.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Same here.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It's so great.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So our new publication we're doing now has a
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: lot of history in it. That's one of our passions
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: So that's Exploration Quarterly.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: That's Exploration Quarterly, yes.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I read that it encapsulates all of your passions.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Basically it does.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I think that's a good way to put it. So it's,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: it's there. We do, there's a lot of overlanding in it.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: We do trips, we do equipment reviews, but there's also
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: a heavy influence of historic, historical expeditions, biographies of explorers.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: The last one we did covered Gino Watkins, who is
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: a very little known young explorer who explored Greenland. And
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: then it also has a heavy component of field arts,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: what Roseanne does. Field sketching, painting, journaling. So it's very
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: broad ranging. Text heavy, a lot of good illustrations, but
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: we're not afraid to run long articles if they're worthwhile.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: So some of our pieces will be 5,000 words long,
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: which is pretty unusual in magazines these days. And we
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: decided on a quarterly format, but it's a hybrid. We
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: do two print issues per year and two digital issues.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: And what that does, in addition to saving a little
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: bit of paper, which we thought was important, allows us
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: to embed videos in the online issues, which we can't
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: do in the paper issue. So it's working out pretty
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: well so far. And we're having fun.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine. You seem to really love writing. I
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: think that's pretty obvious. You've written books, both nonfiction and fiction,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: tons of articles for many publications. Tell me about your
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: passion for writing.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Again, this probably stems, I probably owe a great deal
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: of gratitude to my evil stepfather because reading for me
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: was an escape. So I started reading at reading well
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: at a very early age uh my mother was prescient
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: enough to get me an adult library card and always
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: kept me supplied with books i have to say so
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: i started reading devouring books from a very very early
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: age especially adventure stuff like tarzan books and things like
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: that which was what first got me passionate about africa
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: even though Most people don't know Edgar Rice Burroughs never
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: set foot on the continent. But that just naturally segued
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: into being interested in writing as well. So I didn't
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: do much with it. I didn't really think I had
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: a talent for it until I was well into my
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: 20s and really didn't get going on a freelance writing
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: career until I was into my 30s, actually. But then
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: it seemed to go quickly from there.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Is writing something that you enjoy or is it like
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: a difficult experience? I love writing. You love it.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: I love writing. Yes, I love it. Yeah. If I
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: have the time for it, I'm never bored. Yeah, never bored.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: And I love writing about many, many different topics. I'm
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: never loathe to take on an entirely new topic and
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: just go down rabbit holes researching it.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: So.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Always fun.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: I always love the research part. Like I love digging
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: into something and going on a super big deep dive
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: and then getting it all the information organized. And then
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: it gets to the writing and I'm like, oh, gosh,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: now I have to actually explain. True. To everyone what
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: this was all about.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, quite true.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's so nice. What was the difference when you wrote?
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: So you have some fiction out. What was the difference?
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: in that writing versus articles and nonfiction pieces?
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Well, it was, the main difference, of course, was that
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: since it's fiction, I, it was more using my imagination. However,
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: as a reader, I'm always cognizant of novels, fiction, that
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: incorporate things that aren't, things that aren't true. In other words,
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: writers who, for example, a thriller writer who writes about
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: guns and just obviously doesn't know anything about guns. Just,
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: annoys me to no end. I'll throw, throw the book
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: across the room if it gets too bad. Or natural history.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Since I know, since I'm the polymath or short attention span,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: whatever you want to say, I tend to know a
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: lot of details about a lot of different things. And
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: if I get into a book that's otherwise good, but
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: it's just really bad on facts, then I toss it away.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: So writing my own, I was, I was extremely careful
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: that even though it was fiction, The things I talked
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: about in terms of biology and weapons and so forth
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: were all dead on accurate. And that was fun doing that.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: So nice. So the books are adventure thriller, right?
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a total action adventure thriller. I grew up
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: on them. I still love them. And I'd always wanted
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: to write one. So one day, Roseanne finally just convinced
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: me to just sit down and do it. So I
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: did it. And sadly, I finished it in 2020, right
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: during COVID, when no agents, no publishers were even paying
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: attention to anything. So rather than wait, we just decided
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: to publish it ourselves. So it's self-published and self-marketed.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Does your main character drive a four-wheel drive vehicle?
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: He drives a Land Cruiser pickup. Could hardly, could hardly
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: avoid doing that. Yeah.
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: Gosh.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: I wanted to pick your brain a little bit on modifications,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: speaking of modifications. What are some modifications that should be
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: avoided for long-term travel, in your opinion?
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Easy. I have five or six that I've written about
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: many times and talk about to people who asked me
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: about it. First is no big tires. Most people are
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: tempted by the big tires. And I think that that's a,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: it's a mistake to go much beyond factory tire size
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: because simply because you're putting extra stress on every single
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: component of the vehicle. When you put on bigger, heavier tires,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: it's harder on your brakes. It's harder on the suspension.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: It's harder on everything. And for long distance travel, my
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: number one priority above anything else is reliability. Even before
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: the capability of the vehicle is reliability. So I want
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: to keep as much of it as possible. Also, roof racks.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: I'm dead set against roof racks unless they're absolutely necessary.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: And even then, just putting... The very, very lightest loads
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: on them. No rows of jerry cans and stuff like that.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: What else? I avoid engine modifications. Guys tend to like
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: to see if they can bump up power by adding
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: fancy low-restriction air cleaners, things like that. I tend to
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: stick with stock on engines just to enhance the reliability.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: And then I avoid, as much as possible, plastering stuff
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: all over the outside of the vehicle. Yeah. I don't
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: do the gas cans and things like that. I bolt
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: it all over the place just because it's bad for
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: fuel economy. They're easy to get stolen. I like to
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: keep everything inside the vehicle as much as possible. So
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: those are a few things.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: What are your musts?
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: My musts?
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Good question.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: So those are the avoid. What are your don't avoid?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so good tires, not big tires, but good tires.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: I think that's a good one to put on immediately.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: I always believe in carrying the best air compressor you
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: can possibly afford. In fact, when people ask me what
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: to do to their vehicle and they're hoping for something
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: glamorous like driving lights or something, they're always a little
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: bit disappointed when I say buy a good air compressor
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: because it's just not as, just doesn't show as well.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: But I think that's one of the most important things
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: to have, along with a good way to deflate your tires.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Because airing down is one of the best things you
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: can do to enhance reliability and enhance comfort and reduce
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: trail erosion. So that pairing is good. I also like
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: extended range fuel tanks.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: I love those.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of the trips we do are remote
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: enough that... I want a lot of fuel capacity. Our
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: tube carrier that's in the garage next to me here
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: holds 71 gallons of diesel. So it's got a pretty
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: massive range. And it's also got 29 gallons worth of water.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: So I like having the ability to go out and
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: not necessarily... even travel long distances, but just stay out
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: for a long time without having to resupply. Agreed. Yeah.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: And then along with the air compressor, I'm a firm
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: believer in dual battery systems. I think that's one of
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: the first things you should do. The biggest causes of
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: trouble in the field are still battery trouble and tire trouble.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: So if you can cover the battery trouble with a
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: dual battery system, And you can cover the tire trouble
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: with air compressor and a good plug kit. You're essentially
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: able to handle probably 75% of the things that go
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: wrong by yourself, no matter what.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: I like that. Good tips. I was thinking about, we
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: were in Mongolia this year, and they're having fuel shortages
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: with huge lineups at the gas stations.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So in order to be selective, we were
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: very happy that we had our long range tank for
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: that specific situation. A lot of other good situations too,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: but that one we were like, cool.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Was this because of the war or before that?
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Uh-huh. Yeah.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: So petrol and diesel were short?
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Diesel was fine.
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: So petrol. That's good. So if we were driving a
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: diesel vehicle, we wouldn't have to worry about it.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: Uh-huh.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's nice to have the flexibility. And I guess
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: the thing about when you go overlanding or you're overlanding,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: you want to be free to roam. And so all
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: of the things that you've mentioned are a great way
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: to continue the role.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do urge people who tell me they're buying
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: a vehicle specifically to explore on other continents to go diesel,
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: if at all possible, for many reasons. As you know,
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: fuel economy, but also safety. Diesel is just such a
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: much safer fuel. That's a big point for me. Especially
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: when you've got 71 gallons of it underneath your butt.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Good.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: I have a few more questions about, like you, you've
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: obviously four-wheel drive pursuits, or a thing. But you've also
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: done traveling by foot and bicycle, sea kayak, motorcycle.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: What are some memorable moments from your other forms of travel?
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: A lot of my most memorable alternative trips were by
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: sea kayak. I did have done it extensively. I ran
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: a company, a one-man company leading sea kayak tours in
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: the Sea of Cortez for several years. I'd done several
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: long distance trips there. Roseanne and I have kayaked in
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: the North Pacific Northwest. We've kayaked the McKenzie River out
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: to the Beaufort Sea. So I love traveling by sea
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: kayak because you're self-propelled. So wherever you get, you've gotten
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: there under your own power and you've burned no fossil
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: fuels to do so. A sea kayak can, the The
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: ones I typically use are expedition kayaks and they can
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: hold 200, 250 pounds of gear plus you. So you
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: can be out for a long time in this boat
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: that is propelled only by your own arm strength. And
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: it's just, it's a fascinating way to travel. It's quiet
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: and low key and wherever you get gives you a
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: significant sense of satisfaction because you got there on your own.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: You weren't just burning gas to get there.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: I bet the camping is just incredible too.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Yes. On those trips. It is. It is. And you
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: can carry enough stuff to be very comfortable. It's not
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: bare bones. So it's a really nice way to go.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: I'm planning a trip next summer. I'm not sure. Probably
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: down the Yukon River. Yeah. Roseanne's thinking about dropping me
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: off at the Alaskan border with Canada. And I would
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: just paddle down the river to where the Dempster Highway crosses.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: And then she'd pick me up there. And in the meantime,
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: she can wander around doing her field arts work. So
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: that's on the calendar for now. Yeah, that should be
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: really fun.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Is there anything recently that you've been getting up to?
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: I'm sure because you're both so, you're always busy, always learning,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: always writing, always drawing, doing amazing things. What have you
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: been up to lately?
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Well, lately we're absorbed in building our house. So it's
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: more of a kind of a domestic scene. We're in
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: a desert grassland here and there are occasional grass fires.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: So we had a metal steel building put up for
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: the house show. And my job is going to be
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: to finish the inside, putting up walls and electricity and
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: plumbing and so forth. So we're slowly working on that now.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: I just got an air conditioning system installed just a
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: few weeks ago, actually. So we're now cool. In the meantime,
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: we're living in an Airstream trailer next door to it.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: So fortunately, we're both well used to living in small places.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: So and we're also used to being in each other's
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: company for 24 hours a day and seven days a
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: week and not seeing other people for weeks at a time.
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: So. And a special thanks to Honcook Tire for supporting
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: this week's podcast. What's it like when over 20,000 Jeeps
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: and more than 50,000 people get together in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee?
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: We joined Honcook Dynapro Tire to capture the awesome energy
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: of the 2026 14th annual Jeep Invasion. Keep an eye
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: on ExpeditionPortal.com for our upcoming event recap and get inspired.
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: Thanks again, Honcook.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: We're compatible that way.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: That's important.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Can relate.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So we're doing that. We are leading a trip
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: to Belize in November, though, which will be fun, with
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Graham Jackson. Nice. So that will be fun. Yeah. And
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: I've been doing a lot of driver training recently, especially
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: for conservation organizations, which I find really fulfilling because a
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: lot of these organizations are have employees who are young
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: and obviously very committed, but a lot of them don't
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: know the first thing about safe driving off-road or how
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: to do so. So I've been running classes teaching them
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: how to drive without impacting the environment, which is obviously
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: their reason for being is preserving the environment. So that's
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: very fulfilling. I did a class just last week with
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: an organization down here and I'm doing one day after
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: tomorrow for another one.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Good.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: I enjoy doing that.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: What are the main ways to reduce impact when you're
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: four-wheel driving?
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: Well, one is what we already talked about, which is
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: taking air out of your tires. As you know, I
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: always hammer on having people air down as soon as
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: they get on a dirt road. It saves wear on
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: the trail. It saves its makes the drive more comfortable
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: for the people inside, and it saves wear and tear
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: on the vehicle itself. So it's sort of a win-win situation.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: But if it's difficult for you to air down and
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: slow and difficult for you and slow to air up,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: you won't do it, which is why I stress having
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: a really good air compressor and a means to air down.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: So a lot of the people I teach literally have
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: no clue about four-wheel drive at all. They don't know
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: how it works, what it does. They think it's an
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: all-conquering thing where you just stick it in four-wheel drive
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: and you can go anywhere. And I disavow them of
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: that misconception and then start out with four. Safe driving.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: We do failed hill climb exercises. We do a lot
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: of marshalling so that they learn how to guide each
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: other through tough places. And a lot of recovery as well,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: of course, in case they do get stuck. So it
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: seems to work really well. And I've been getting a
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: lot of references from, you know, one organization I'll teach
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: and they'll recommend someone else to help me do something
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: as well. So I think it helps them a lot.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: Fantastic. Yeah, it's so important to have conservation and four-wheel
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: drive capability working together and having that understanding on both sides. Yeah, so, yeah. Right.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: And as you know, younger people these days, a lot
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: of them can't drive manual transmissions, and many of them
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: just know nothing about mechanics. So we go through all
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: that so that they'll be a little more self-contained. Because
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of them wind up in fairly remote areas
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: in the Southwest and in Mexico. So it's important. We
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: do tire repair and changing, things like that as well.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: That's great. Well, thank you, Jonathan, for joining me. It's
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: been a real pleasure speaking with you today.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: I was happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Great. Where can we find you online? I know you
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: have a lot going on with Exploration Quarterly, and then
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: you're having Exploration Quarterly field camps, gatherings, and things like that.
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: That.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: Where can we find all this information?
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Well, exploringoverland.com is probably the main site. If you go there,
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: you'll find pretty much everything else. The magazine, trips, everything
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: we do. So I would say Exploring Overland is the
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: way to go. Instagram, we're Exploration Quarterly app, I guess.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: I'm still a little ignorant about those things. Yeah. So
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: that as well.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Perfect. We will include the links as we always do. Okay.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: And yeah, thank you. I mean, it's wild this many years.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I think I've been with Overland Journal for six years,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: but I think that the legacy of what came before
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: me is really important. So thank you for your contribution.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: And it's made it so that I can write about
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: incredible stories that are historical as well. And yeah, it's
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: definitely changed the way that I live my life. So
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: thank you.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: That's very cool to hear.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you, Jonathan, for joining us.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: And a shout out to the Overland Journal podcast listeners
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: for joining us for today's episode. And just as a
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: heads up, to honor the 20-year anniversary of Overland Journal,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: We are revisiting special heritage content in the upcoming 100th
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: issue of the magazine. So to stay in the loop,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: sign up for the new newsletter, which we will link
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: in the show notes, and head to Expedition Portal for
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: more bonus heritage content.