Latest / Electronic Music / Sisters With Transistors
Transcript
- Hello and welcome to the Sound On Sound podcast about electronic music and all things synth. I'm Caro C, and in this episode, we're exploring Sisters with Transistors, a new feature length documentary film about ten key women pioneers of experimental electronic music and sound. First, I'll speak to the director of Sisters with Transistors. Lisa Rovner to find out more about this documentary which is getting rave reviews. Then I'll talk with Marta Solonyi, the sound designer on Sisters with Transistors, about her part in the film and what the film means for us working in the audio and music industry now. Sisters with Transistors is available to view online in the UK and US and from the 7th of June it will also be available. via the likes of Amazon and iTunes. We'll start with a clip from the film, featuring the voice of musician and software designer, Laurie Spiegel. Technology is a tremendous liberator. It blows up power structures. Women are naturally drawn to electronic music. You didn't have to be accepted by any of the male dominated resources. You could make something with electronics and you can present music directly to your audience. And that. It gives you tremendous freedom. Director of Sisters with Transistors, Lisa Rovner. So Sisters with Transistors is the remarkable untold story of electronic music's female pioneers. It's the story of composers who embrace machines and their liberating technologies to completely transform how we produce and listen to music today. But it's more than just the history of a music genre. It's really the story of how we hear and the critical but little known role female pioneers play in that story. Making this film has completely changed my understanding of sound. I just feel like I listen differently and that's kind of what I hope people walk away with is like curiosity, you know, wonder and a kind of new. and more engaged way of listening. Yeah, and I think such a compendium of experimental electronic pioneers that have been collected here. And why did you feel Sisters with Transistors needed to be made? Well, it all started when I discovered a timeline of female pioneers in electronic music, and I began to look into the women featured in this timeline. So, Clara Rockmore, Daphne Oram, Bebe Barron, Delia, and really I was just I was just amazed and surprised, both that I had never heard of them, but obviously by their sound, and really compelled by the images. Who were these women with these machines? And I guess when I realized that they were amongst the greatest pioneers of modern sound, I was compelled to break the silence that surrounded their stories. These were women with agency. They were women who were truly independent. Their stories were stories of personal liberation, of persistence. Something that I As a female filmmaker could really relate to and really, I guess more generally, I just, I just long to see examples of female creativity and genius in music. And, you know, not just the Taylor Swifts and Beyonce's who are also genius and represent female creativity, but more women were taking big risks and, and experimenting with boundaries and form and, and, and women who carve their own paths in a very. In a way that I guess maybe I could relate to. Yeah, I mean, most of them aren't seeking popularity, are they? Within the film, you really followed them on their journey of constantly learning and being fascinated by sound and music. Exactly. And there's something about they're always, um, creating. It's almost like, yeah, it's a vocation as much as a job, as many of us know. But there's something about them documenting themselves. Obviously, that's That's a big deal, isn't it, to actually document yourself? Well, I don't know if they were necessarily documenting themselves. I mean, Daphne Oram definitely was. You know, those, some of the images that you see in the film, you know, she's, she's in her studio and those were images that she commissioned of herself. But I think the thing that's so fascinating to me, Was, you know, discovering that these women were obviously at, at the time, you know, the film is all archive and all of that archive exists because somebody was recognizing their genius. And so what's fascinating to me is to think like, how did these stories then become kind of eclipsed by history? Not necessarily these stories, but why were these women's genius and, um, groundbreaking work kind of not part of the canon? The film takes that as a departure and kind of really looks to bring them back into the canon. But I should say, you know, this is a small sample of a much larger pool of women working in electronic music. So this is not the definitive history. This is just a small sampling of many women who were drawn to electronics. Why? Because this electronic medium or these new tools really enabled women to, you know, as Suzanne Chani says in the film, like, you were the composer, you were the performer, you were the sole arbiter of your creation. And you could really get music to an audience in this way that You know, traditional female composers, of course they exist, but you know, there are just so few of them mainly because they just couldn't get their music out to audiences. Yeah. And yeah, talking about the archive. So let's have a little chat about the how. I mean, how do you pull all that together? I think for me, knowing it's a film about sound, it's about music, and yet you need, you need visual material. It's a film. So how did you go about that mammoth task of bringing all that together? It was a long process, as you know, because you were involved in it, but yeah, I should, I should say as well, like the archive that I was able to find is really what drove the story. You know, it really dictated what I was able to explore in the film. And so some of the women like Lori and Suzanne, they had their incredible archives all in one place for the most part. I mean, the, the archive of Suzanne at the beginning of the film where she's kind of performing. For the first time in 1974 in a gallery on Abukla, that was something that took hundreds and hundreds of emails to actually get access to. So yeah, there's, there's, you know, it's kind of like detective work finding this archive. You kind of look at their bios and you kind of retrace their relationships, where they were, when. Contact all the spaces that you know that they perhaps performed out or worked out. But it was an enormous challenge getting this archive together. And yeah, I can't stress enough just how challenging it was. Yeah. And then the narrator of the film is the wonderful Laurie Anderson, who also is a pioneer in her own right. Absolutely. So yeah, Laurie Anderson has always been one of my greatest inspirations. She just has this way of talking about very serious things, but in, in a very disarming way. And she really reaches people with her politics. And so, yeah, obviously when I was first kind of thinking about the film, I was thinking about including her as one of the pioneers. But it quickly became clear to me that because I had known her since I was seven, it wasn't quite the same story. It wasn't, you know, this unsung in the same way. And I think that she definitely deserves more credit because I think she's just She's literally just so genius and I'm so happy that she agreed to to do the voiceover. That, that came really later, you know, it was always something that I wanted and I'd kind of written with her in mind. But yeah, it was, it was really so amazing when she said yes, because I think we really need a narrator and she's worked with that kind of voice of authority for many, many Years. So it just made so much sense, both conceptually and, um, sonically and, um, artistically to have her narrate the film. Yeah. And I love the way her voice sort of does interweave. So, um, within the sort of portraits, if you like, of the 10 women that are featured in the film, Laurie's almost supporting and connecting. But amidst that, a lot of the time the women are speaking for themselves. Was that intentional for you? Definitely. So one of the things with the narration, the way we wrote it is that, you know, we didn't want to have a narrator who was all knowing, because again, you know, this is not a definitive history. This is, this is a history. Um, and it's a very subjective one. And as you say, you know, the women tell the stories mainly for themselves. We use their voices to tell their stories. But it is a very subjective, these are very subjective portraits and, um, and it's, it's not a kind of BBC informational doc. It's full of information, but I just don't want people walking away thinking, okay, now I know everything about that subject because the subject is vast and deserves many, many more films. And I remember us discussing and you talking about different stages, there were talks of whether to bring a composer on board, but in the end you settled. For sound designer, which is Marta Saloni, who I'm talking to shortly. How did that kind of decision come about? Um, why no composer and why did you feel like you still needed a sound designer? Yeah, so originally, yeah, we, you know, we had reached out to Mika Levy and she was interested in the subject. And kind of when I got to a point where I had, you know, about 20 minutes of edit, I kind of showed her the, what I, where I was at and kind of wanted to get some feedback. And she was, she was the first one to suggest that actually it doesn't need it. It doesn't need a composer. the music of the women is, is, is enough. And I was just so happy that she said that. Obviously, I was a little bit bummed because I was just, you know, I just love her work so much. And I really wanted to, to experience working with her on, on a film, but I'm just so appreciative of her, her true respect for, for the sounds that these women were composing. And so towards the end of the film, I kind of was looking for someone to Yeah, just tie all of this together. And I met Marta at a playback for an album that she, Suzanne Chiani. Yeah. The Inca Love Project. Exactly. And there was just something about Marta, you know, just seeing her, she was kind of behind the decks and, you know, it was a really fancy music studio and she just felt right at home behind those machines. And something about her presence that really reminded me of, of, of all of these women whose stories, you know, we were telling. And when we met, we just kind of. You know, she saw the film and she added so much, but in such a beautiful, subtle way, her sound, like everything that she added was, was with such care. So yeah, so why not as composer? Probably because there wasn't quite enough room for a composer to find their place. And why Marta? Because Marta is just So good. I mean, it's just interesting because she's so amazing with spatialization. So she really, you know, some of these archives were so flat sounding, so dry, and she really just brought them to life. And it was fascinating just sitting in and the people that were doing the sound mix who were great and just, you know, she just has the language. She just has a fluency. She just knows exactly what to do. And it was just, it was thrilling to watch her and, and just hear the difference. It's just, it's a shame, obviously, people are experiencing the film on, you know, through their computers mostly. But, you know, we do have a 5. 1 sound design, which I hope that one day we will be able to, to use and, and to project. Hello, Marta Salogni. Thank you for joining us today. Um, you're the sound designer on Sisters with Transistors, but you're also a tape musician, you're a music producer, an engineer. Let's start with a difficult question. I wonder if you could tell us if there's any of the 10 women that we follow in Sisters with Transistors that really strongly resonate for you? Well yeah, that is a very hard question but, um, I'd say both Delia and Daphne and, uh, and Pauline really were the Frida for me. I really, really identified with, uh, in terms of like, um, how they view. and how they, how they view the listening process and the compositional process as well. So Daphne, I discovered Daphne late at night at the studio, uh, when I was, uh, given an individual note, which is her book. Um, and I started reading it, I felt, oh my God, God, I can, you know, I can see myself in, in her words. I feel understood finally. This is, uh, this is beautiful. It sort of felt like a rush of, um, warmth inside. And I still remember that I was after this long session and, uh, feeling like so inspired. I, I just, um, yeah, just like a light for me. And then, uh, from that, I then came across Delia and, uh, um, made me even more inspired because I felt, wow, she composes with tapes and, uh, uh, I know how much work it goes into those sort of composition, how long it takes to make a composition from tape. Yeah, it's sort of like, you know, if I'll be late at night working, uh, with my own tape machine, I will always think, this is not wasted time, this is never Being wasted time, although I'm tired and although I'm, uh, you know, I'm here and it's 3 a. m because I know that Delia was there too and she did it and I, I just must just trust the process and I know that I'm going to break through and then I'm going to, to listen back to what I feel was my intention. Um, and I know it will work out. So Delia for me was, was that, was, uh, Seeing hope and, and trusting myself through her, through her work as well. And, uh, then when I came across, uh, Pauline Oliveros, that to me, finally, I felt understood in the way that I think I, I, I see and perceive sound is, uh, rather than hearing is, is an active listening and is in the listening process is, uh, almost like a. Yeah, it's like a sonic meditation, for example. That's, that's, that's, uh, I took that from her and, uh, the way that she would, you know, be so, uh, militant and, uh, not, not just in, in the way that she made sound, but the, But everything around it, you know, she was really involved politically and, um, her, uh, her quote, uh, the one in which she says, uh, Thread so carefully at night so that the bottom of your feet become ears. I find that extremely beautiful. You know, that's one of my favorite quotes ever. So yeah, it's, it's, it's hard to pick one because also Suzanne, uh, Suzanne Chaney is for me a, you know, a huge inspiration. I mean, it's incredible to see her playing the Buchla live in front of me and, and just hear her talking about sound and her love for the instrument is so inspiring. It's, I can't really pick one at all. Um, but yeah, it's, it's again, it's to me, it's like this, you know, it's this feeling of seeing myself and what I love about sound being reflected back to me thanks to all these women and then, you know, being inspired by it. Uh, by sound itself and their work. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I love how you got Suzanne Ciani talking about how advertising was a good place for her to work because they were looking for something different. So there was a place where she could put her experiments out in the world, if you like. And at the same time as, yeah, her The depth of how she worked with Don Buchlo and worked with the synthesizer. Then you've got Clara who helped Leon Theremin develop his instrument. And coming from being a violin virtuoso to turning the Theremin into the music itself into a very respected art form. And then Wendy Carlos mainstreaming the Moog with her Bach sounds. And yeah, Delia, Daphne. Um, Daphne with her Oramix machine and that hilarious and brilliant book. An individual note, I love it when she, she describes how electricity works and she uses analogies of cooking and sexual attraction and I was like, ah, I get it now. Yes. Totally, yes. It's beautifully visionary. It's great. Yeah, yeah. And just herself, again, just really authentic. Of course, Baby Baron working on the first electronic sound. It wasn't called electronic sound, was it? They weren't allowed to. What was it called? Tonalities. Uh, electronic tonalities. Yeah, forbidden planet, yes. Eliane Radigue with her beautifully sensitive work with the aeroplanes, Pauline in her deep listening. Yeah, the long form compositions, yeah, that she did was just outstanding. Yeah, and really when I, When I was hearing about Marianne Amacher, that made me think of binaural beats because she's talking about the third ear and the frequency in between. That's basically binaural beats, isn't it? Yeah, I mean that, that's how immensely great is that, the fact that, um, you know, thinking about sound and in at that depth where, uh, she said by playing two sounds that are slightly different from each other then your brain bridges the two and it creates a first sound. I mean, to me that is so visionary and is in a way like an idea that feels so simple and so powerful and using that as a compositional tool, I mean, incredible. Yeah, definitely. And then finally, with, uh, basically, uh, coming up with MIDI kind of. music mapping program, didn't she? Yes. Yeah, music maps. Yes. Great. So, so great. And, yeah, so pure as well. You can really see, that's why the footage in the film for me is, is, is just a joy to see because you can really see how pure the inspiration is in the faces and in the words of, uh, of everyone featured in it. You know, it's, uh, Yeah, it's so refreshing. Yeah, and I think the social change for us is really nice to acknowledge and appreciate as well. So us being women operating in those worlds now, you realize it is a different place for us, isn't it? And we stand on their shoulders, really. It's thanks to their work, their bravery, their innovation, their courage, really. Yes, totally. Yes, it's, I mean, it's thanks to them that I am Here, and then I, I, I got inspired to pursue what, uh, what I'm doing right now. And I felt, uh, less alone in my desire to explore sounds in different ways. And, uh, you know, it's very important to have role models. I think if suddenly we, we can, uh, see ourselves in someone else that has done it before us, then it. There is a sort of like a rush of confidence that comes with it. So I think in, in, in all fields, uh, but I can only talk about music now because this is my field and I feel that having come across Delia or Daphne, which are the first two role models for me, uh, I, I might have been, might have felt more alone and perhaps a bit, you know, a bit lost. So having them as people to look up to. For me, it was hugely important. Yeah, and I think, knowing that back then, as a few of the women mention, and Suzanne Ciani has mentioned as well, that in those days when a lot of these women were working at their peak, It was a new language. It was a new form of expression. It was a new genre of music. It was a new world, really. Whereas now, maybe we are a bit caught up in formulas, but I really got the impression, especially from hearing from Suzanne Ani last year in our podcast, how it hadn't been defined and that somehow gave you some freedom. It gave you some autonomy, it gave you some agency to. this is how it can be. Yeah, exactly. As electronic music in those days was still being defined and explored. Um, so it was really excited to actually feel like being part of a new movement. And, uh, that movement wasn't defined by any structures yet. Uh, it was all. new and fresh. And, uh, for example, in the, in the film we see, uh, even going back to Delia or to Daphne, um, Clara Rockmore was the first woman who brought electronic music into a concert hall. And that, um, you know, that hybrid new genre. Uh, of music as in immensely fresh, and then that's why on one side it was taken with suspicion because it's the first time that people were hearing an electronic instrument. Um, the pheromone being played alongside, um, classical instruments in a setting that was always being used. uh, for traditional and classical music. That and then starting to use oscillators and sampling, recording, um, for example, the green lampshade like Delia will do and pitching it up and down and slowing it down and spinning it up and creating all sorts of compositions by sampling, which is very, very new at the time. That's also something, um, Like an innovation that was brought, uh, into a world that didn't know it before. And as all innovations, I think, that's what, what I just said is, it can be met with, with a response that might be a bit like, Oh, well, that's not music. So, because music is, well, it's always been the traditional, um, the traditional sounds played by an instrument that is played by a human. Uh, so what is this, you know, the public, uh, sort of like struggling to understand that new way of making music. Yeah, definitely. I know from the theremin, especially it's like, what is this? You can't even see it. You know, someone's playing it just air and how, you know, even now people go, what kind of, what kind of voodoo is that? And then you've got, I know from Delia's experience and. You know, there's, um, complaints, really, on radio, on BBC radio, saying, What is this horrific sound that's coming out of our speakers? And where's the orchestra? And at the same time, as she is credited as the first person within the Radiophonic Workshop, Tick Mills says, anyway, showing that electronic music can be beautiful. Yeah. And also, in the archive, the Delia Derbyshire archive. There's a lovely, um, notes, I think, um, that go with the first commercial recording for the BBC, which was the Dr. Who thing. And, um, it says in there that this wasn't made by any instruments. It wasn't made by humans, was it? But it wasn't being from outer space either. And, and there was something about those. Unidentified, unclassified sound worlds, really. And yeah, I still, I still love it for that. I think it allows you to find, find your own textures, but also bridge the worlds between sound and music. So you, I know, have a strong affinity with some of the older technology, like tape. And, um, I'm of the digital age now. I do have a couple of analog synths, but I'm pretty much laptop based in what I do. So. Yeah, tell us about why you're still choosing to work with tape and how you might feel the connection with some of those ancestors. I love tape as a, um, compositional tool and as a new instrument to compose, um, in a way that it feels, more connected to the, um, to the sounds, to me, to the process. Because it's, um, it's manual, it's, uh, tactile and it moves. I can see the moving parts and the tape just going through the tape heads and it's warm, it feels alive, it's, uh, temperamental and, uh, It's sort of unpredictable sometimes, and that's why I love, I think, this, this whole combination of things for me just feels unique, and, uh, it just really grabs my attention, and it clears my head, um, I love the fact that, uh, it takes patience, and it takes trust, and it takes, um, explorations, and, yeah, and all my senses are involved in this, obviously, uh, hearing and listening, and um, Then there's the, uh, uh, cutting the tape with a razor blade with my hands and there's the visual aspects of seeing the tape and the tape reels turning and turning and, uh, so it just really is, uh, a whole, a whole And, uh, and yeah, so I think that's what drawn me to the medium, uh, at first. Uh, and it's also the mystery of it. Um, cause I started assisting and then engineering when tape was an option rather than, um, rather than the only, medium. So I started and I started recording, um, with Pro Tools and then, uh, through my own interest and started finding more and more, uh, about tape recording and then got myself a machine and started sitting in front of it and studying it and trying to understand, um, the way it worked. Um, the more I understood, uh, the more I wanted to experiment with it and see how else I could use it. And, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm still in the, uh, uh, experimentation kind of, um, world now. I don't think that ever ends because, you know, sometimes I want to, uh, share a tape, uh, reel going from one tape machine to another. And then, uh, that. you know, creating a sort of like accumulation tape, uh, loop and then thinking, oh, what if I, uh, feed it back onto itself? And then, oh, what if I add a third tape machine to this, um, system? Or what if I add eight tape machines. Where does this go? Um, it's always an experiment and that's, uh, what sparks my imagination is that, wow, there is no end to what we can, uh, what we can achieve and what we can imagine. And, uh, you know, the machines themselves will respond always differently to these experiments. And so it's kind of like, um, you know, it feels reciprocal as a relationship that I have with, uh, with tape and tape machines. So let's talk a bit about your part in the film. So you are the sound designer. Um, can you tell us a bit about your process and then also the challenges of Joyce on working on such a film with such amazing music already there? Yeah. The sound design in the film, uh, I try to approach it, uh, with a creative mind rather than just a functional one. So, because being a, especially being a film about sound, I wanted, uh, My sounds in there not to be not to not disturb the narrative, but I wanted to complement it and, uh, and go with it, you know, kind of wrap around it in a way that, um, will, uh, enhance, enhance it and enhance everything that was happening on screen. So, for example, uh, They'd be like, um, the scene of, uh, of the Blitz when, uh, Delia is saying, uh, he's talking about the sounds of the sirens and, um, For example, right there I used some tape feedback that I recorded in my studio and used them to kind of go underneath of the sounds of the sirens and the sounds of the, of the bombs, thinking that, that if, if I would have been there, that's the way that I would have probably perceived and listened to the sounds all around me. There's incredibly kind of harrowing and scary sounds. To me, they reminded me of the tape machine feedback that sometimes I play with. So I went into the studio with Lisa with a folder of sounds that I've, uh, that I created. And then as we will watch the film, uh, and Lisa will have some specific ideas where she wanted to have, uh, sound specific sound design in there, but she, she left me a lot of freedom to kind of interpret what, uh, what sort of sound could have. gone there. She was really open and that's why I felt really creative and liberating to collaborate together in that way. So, yeah, I had this folder and within it I had some tape feedback, some, um, time stretched, uh, location recording of planes, uh, which, uh, I've used in that scene and also when Elia Radig says, uh, that she will be listening to the sounds around her and then compose thinking about, uh, that about reality and about what's, um, what is our everyday life filled with in terms of like sonics and how we react to it. So yeah, I wanted the sound design to come across as part of the music really rather than the normal foley that you will find in, uh, in other films where it's kind of functional to just, uh, kind of link the image up to the, the sound. Um, yeah, so that, that was really interesting for me. Yeah, yeah. And the challenges and the joys? Challenges is that, um, yeah, sometimes kind of thinking like, Oh, is this sound, uh, that we're putting here distracting from, from the narrative? Or sometimes, you know, it's silence is one of the most potent sounds in a way. Uh, would it be, would it be more, um, poignant to have? Would it be more fitting to not have any sounds and then so that the sound that comes after is going to be perceived with more gravitas? Or, uh, that was always the challenge, right? To decide whether what you're putting into the scene is needed or not. And the joy was the whole process. The joy was, uh, kind of seeing this film. coming to life, featuring all these, um, heroes of mine and, uh, role models and to listen to their experience and feeling I could see myself in their experience too. And, uh, feeling not alone in my path and hearing that they also struggled at points and, uh, they also encountered, um, uh, obstacles, but yet they still continued. And, uh, that's what, um, What came across, uh, for me very strongly is the, um, determination, uh, of all of them and the, uh, you know, the motivation behind, as we said at the beginning of our talk, is, uh, um, the art form, and, uh, the art form is the most important thing here, um, you know, when, um, when Pauline, uh, writes that article on the, uh, I think on the New York Times, and don't call them Leiden Composers, um, she, um, She highlights the fact that, uh, at the time when, uh, there will be a woman composer, she will always be addressed as a, as a woman composer, as a lady composer, rather than a composer. And that's sort of how I feel too, you know, it's, uh, it's, I get, um, I get quite annoyed at, uh, when there is that separation, like it's almost as if, uh, a woman composer, uh, will always be the greatest in a world of women composers rather than in a world of composers. And Pauline was saying it really well, um, in her article, as I was saying, and highlighting how wrong that was. was, you know, it's sort of like, yes, you are the greatest, uh, woman composer, but, uh, never the greatest composers. I think that's, that's a sentiment that is shared across other art forms, like, um, painting and then sculpture. I've, I've, I've come across a lot of, a lot of quotes from other women in different fields. It just felt that way. Yeah. Yeah. I know Delia always said she wanted to be known as a composer. First, that was the most important. Her gender came after that kind of thing in terms of when you're in the work. I suppose in terms of my work with education as well, though, you do see that younger generations or people who are emerging do also need to see and hear those. Brave, strong, confident, humble, reflections of their identity, if you like. Totally, yes. And that's exactly is very important. And when we want to shine a light of the representation of women in music, it's really important that we highlight the fact that these pioneers were women. And these pioneers, as women, they led the way for us. And for me, it's really, really important that my role models were women because I saw myself in them. So, yes. Absolutely important to celebrate them as they are, you know, and, uh, celebrate the, the weight and the importance that they had, um, in shaping history as we know it and shaping the technology as, as we know it. I mean, a lot of things that I do now, I do it. Uh, in a way that I do it thanks to, thanks to them and, uh, yeah, to be able to recognize myself in their work is, is huge. It makes me feel like, um, I have my feet on the ground and, uh, that I can turn and look back at a picture of Delia surrounded by tape machines and feeling, yes, I, I can, I feel the same. I, I bet she's sometime. that felt like me, you know, late at night and thinking, Oh gosh, I'm really struggling with this composition. Um, but you know, the inspiration is there. That's fantastic. Thank you and all the best with your adventures in sound and music. Thank you to you too. Thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes for further information as well as links and details of other episodes in the electronic music series. And just before you go, let me point you to soundonsound. com forward slash podcasts so you can check out what's on our other channels. This has been a Akaro C Production for Sound On Sound.