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Sam Zell: Think Different | E01 · In Search Of Excellence

• 0:55
  Randall Kaplan: Welcome to my podcast In Search of Excellence, our quest for greatness to be the very best we can be to learn, educate and motivate ourselves to live up to our highest potential. It's about planning for excellence which requires incredibly hard work, dedication and perseverance.
• 3:53
  Randall Kaplan: Achieving Excellence is our goal. And it's never easy to do.
• 3:56
  Randall Kaplan: We all have different backgrounds, personalities, and surroundings. We all have different routes on how we hope and want to get there. Today is my friend, the incredible Sam Zell. Sam is the chairman of equity group investments a private investment firm he founded more than 50 years ago.
• 4:12
  Randall Kaplan: He's the chairman of five public companies and the New York Stock Exchange equity residential, which has a market capitalization of $27 billion equity lifestyle properties which has a market cap of $12 billion equity Commonwealth, which has a market value of $3.5 billion Covanta holding corporation which has a market value of $1.8 billion equity distribution Acquisition Corp, which is a SPAC which has a value of $513 million. He was also the founder and chairman of equity office, the largest office REIT in the country until its sale in 2007. For $39 billion. He's considered one of the grandfather's of the modern real estate investing industry was recognized by Forbes as one of the greatest living business minds. He's a self made billionaire with a net worth of more than $5 billion, who has been on the Forbes 400 Since it started in 1982. Sam is also an active philanthropist with a focus on entrepreneurial education among many other organizations who have been the recipients of his generous gifts. He founded the Zell Lurie Institute for Entrepreneurship Studies at the University of Michigan's Ross business school, and he's given more than $150 million to the greatest university on Earth, the University of Michigan. He founded this Hal Fellows Program at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management. He started his Ellery, real estate Center at Wharton, and the Zell Entrepreneurship Center at her salon, Israel, among many others. He's the author of a book called Am I being too subtle, which is behind me, an amazing book, whose last chapter is titled go for greatness, which is one of the main reasons why I started my podcast, Sam and I have been friends for 22 years. And I'm honored to have as my guest today, Sam, Welcome to In Search of Excellence.
• 6:05
  Sam Zell: My pleasure, Randy, it was a very long winded introduction. But I'm glad went through it.
• 6:11
  Randall Kaplan: Okay. You've done a lot of great things. And I want readers to have some background in terms of all of your incredible accomplishments.
• 6:17
  Randall Kaplan: Let's start with family. From the moment we're born, our family helped shape our personality and values and the preparation for our future. Your parents were Jewish immigrants from Poland, who left the Nazis before they invaded. And they had a very long trip that took many stops before they arrived by ship and Seattle. In May of 1941, your dad was 36, your mom was 33. They had little money and they didn't speak English, can you tell us more about their journey, what they were like what kind of values they instilled in you. And let's start with the 12 hour span after they arrived?
• 6:54
  Sam Zell: Well, you know, maybe one of the best ways to describe their unique characteristics was the fact that, you know, they landed at 6am May 16 1941. My mother was pregnant with me, I had a little I had an older sister. And at 6pm. That night, they went to their first English school, and in rapidly learned how to speak English and learn how to be. And we're very proud of being citizens of the United States. More than anything that really talks about conviction, my parents lived on the German Polish border. And my father had meant taking the steps necessary earlier, to provide for the ability to escape, since he felt that leaving Poland was going to be the only way to survive.
• 8:04
  Sam Zell: Unfortunately, he tried to, you know, convince other members of his family or her family to join them. I think they were probably viewed as, you know, young, crazy kids, and, you know, and didn't understand that what stability was, unfortunately, everybody, with the exception of two who stayed, didn't make it.
• 8:27
  Sam Zell: So that was kind of the you know, the way it started in now.
• 8:32
  Sam Zell: It took them 18 months to go from, you know, Serbia Chien, Poland to Seattle, in the United States. It was over that was across Poland, into Lithuania, to Moscow across the rest of Russia, 11 days and 11 nights on the Trans Siberian Express. And then into Japan along the way.
• 8:57
  Sam Zell: Lots of stories, lots of examples of my mother saying that my father, you know, Bernard enough already, why don't we stop here. And he was determined to make it all the way and so there was never any option of stopping. And it took a lot of, you know, acrobatics, and and they were the beneficiaries of a Japanese Council in Cognos, which is part of Lithuania, who signed transit visas. They allowed him and another 2000 some odd Jews that were basically stateless immigrants to get across Russia and get out of get out of harm's way. And most of them ended up spending the war in Shanghai, which is where the Japanese deported him to Whew. But of course, they survived, versus the many millions that didn't make it. So with that, kind of a background of my life, and, you know, I remember is a four year old or a five year old, you know, sitting it up at a, at a Passover Seder table, when, you know, they wouldn't be in the mood to tell stories, and they told the stories of that trip and their experiences. And, you know, and how they felt about, you know, being Americans, and being part of America, built in me, a whole deep layer of patriotism in the love of this country.
• 10:47
  Randall Kaplan: And what kind of values did your parents still have you? What did your dad do for a living? And did you watch what he was doing and want to be like your dad? And what kind of qualities did he have that you wanted to emulate?
• 11:04
  Sam Zell: Well, in Poland, he was a green trader, and a very, very successful one, which, by the way, probably ended up saving the family's life because he was much more sophisticated than most of the people who lived around him. And he was much more connected to World News and knew a great deal more, but what was going on in Germany at the time, so that the job will lead to a level of knowledge and sophistication.
• 11:40
  Sam Zell: That certainly contributed to the steps that he took to go from there. Once he got to the United States, he ended up in Chicago, because this was the center of the grain business in the United States. And one of his biggest customers in Europe, was Quaker Oats. And Quaker, the whoever the Quaker representative was in in Europe, just loved my father, and would frequently say, you know, if only we had people that we could hire like you to work for us, it would really be terrific. So we went to QuickBooks to get a job, and they wouldn't hire him because he didn't have a college education. So he became kind of an independent Millers representative for a year or two, and then became a wholesale jeweler. And, uh, yeah, and he, you know, in those days, wholesale jewelry were much more entrepreneurs and, and, in effect, they, they they operated their businesses, and distributed that, you know, among, you know, 11 or 12 states and, and then he eventually became a representative for a watchman company, and basically did the same thing. He was a very, very unusual man is just as an example, you know, despite his I was obviously a recent immigrant and spoke with an accent. And, and yet, you know, this watchmen company he worked for was never able to get into Sears, I was never able to get into JC Penney, my father, you know, accomplish both of those objectives. So he was very persuasive, very smart. And, you know, he had an extraordinary level of self confidence. I suppose you could say that, that, you know, at age 34, when he made the decision to leave Poland, you know, very few 34 year olds ever make a life and death decision. And it becomes very difficult if you make a life does that decision? Can You're right. I don't think you ever thought he was wrong again.
• 14:11
  Sam Zell: At least that's the perspective from his father from his son.
• 14:15
  Sam Zell: But, you know, they set examples for me, you know, they emphasize how lucky I was to be in the United States, that the streets were paved with gold. But his definition of pay with gold meant freedom meant the ability to, you know, Excel to test your limits to do whatever you could.
• 14:45
  Sam Zell: And so, I grew up in that kind of an environment. It was also an environment that that, you know, encouraged me to, you know, be humble and and not get The out there, quote unquote, and, you know, and to a large extent, you know, despite all of the different things I've done, I think that I've made a point of not being a quote unquote, a public figure that, you know, in effect, we don't dictates to society in any way. You know, my my feelings are that I believe very strongly in what I believe in. I believe in consistency, as you mentioned, you know, I wrote a book, and I titled better my being too subtle. And that, in many respects, that's as good a description of me as I could think of, because I'm not known for my subtlety. But I've always really wanted no one to ever leave a meeting with me, they may not agree with me. They may not like what I had to say. But they couldn't possibly say, What do you think he meant by that?
• 16:09
  Sam Zell: And so that's created a long history and a long business community that I've created, where those kinds of standards are prevalent.
• 16:23
  Randall Kaplan: What were you like, as a kid? Were you one of these popular kids? Were you a leader? Did you have things you love to do for fun? And then, as part of we can weave into where Playboy played a factor in your childhood?
• 16:40
  Sam Zell: Well, I was I was a different kid. I mean, going back to my father, you know, my father's attitude was, you know, and as often expressed to me, you know, you're different, you know, and I'd say, Well, I want to go out and play again. And he says, Why don't you go sit and read a book, you know, you're different. I remember as a, you know, as a teenager, you know, going to a high school basketball game. And, and that was like, on a Friday night, and a week later, I wanted to go to another basketball game. And my father said, if you would you already went to a basketball game once, why would you want to ever go to more than one basketball game, when you could be studying or when you could be doing something, quote, unquote, productive. So I always, although I didn't necessarily agree with my father's views, and everything, I always was very, very aware of the fact that I live in that I came from a different household, that the environment was different, that the expectations of me were very different. I mean, I have, I know, numerous friends and, but their parents didn't, didn't lean on them in any way, shape, or form, similar to the experience that I had. But obviously, it gave me discipline, it gave me a lot of self confidence. They were my parents were very relaxed, you know, as opposed to today's parents. You know, if I was gone for six or seven hours, you know, that was normal. And I was very curious. And I remember when I was like, 10 years old, I, you know, for a nickel, I was able to get on the subway system. And I rode all day long on the same nickel. Because I knew where I could transfer and we know and would therefore not incur another, another fair, but I was curious. I wanted to see to see everything. And in the same way as you as you, as you, you mentioned, you know, when I was 12 years old, and in sixth grade, my parents moved from the city to the suburbs. And I had been enrolled in Hebrew school when I was five. So by the time I was 12, I had a much more extensive than average education. And so the only way I could continue my education was by going back into the city every day after school, and going to a Hebrew word with color, you Shiva on the north side of Chicago. And so literally every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Sunday morning, I got on the train and went by myself and and my parents never Right never, never crossed their mind that there was anything dangerous about a 12 year old boy being, you know, totally loose in a major city.
• 20:08
  Sam Zell: But as a result, again, my levels of curiosity, were an ending at that age in particular. And I, one of the things that I discovered that was really extraordinary was that there were magazine stands, you know, usually under the old tracks, and that they sold magazines that they didn't sell it every other magazine trail store. And you know, and they were, you know, girlie magazines and stuff like that. And then in 1953, Hugh Hefner published something called Playboy, which was really the first quote unquote, girly magazine, that was really, you know, well done.
• 20:55
  Sam Zell: And so I bought it, it cost 50 cents. And I read it on the way home on the train. And then I showed it to a friend of mine.
• 21:05
  Sam Zell: And a friend of mine was, and this is the kind of magazine then in those days, wasn't sold in the suburbs. It was limited to those under the tracks, magazine store. So I showed it to a friend of mine, and he was in thrall, and said, Geez, you know, can I buy it? And I said, Sure. And he said, I watched him, I said, I don't know $3. He said, great. So he paid me $3 For something that I paid 50 cents for, and PSA gotten to read first. And maybe for the first time in my life, I really understood supply and demand.
• 21:47
  Sam Zell: You know, they knew there was an unlimited demand for that product. And so I started quote, unquote, importing Playboy from our friends. But that was one of a number of, you know, entrepreneurial endeavors that I pursued, when during the period I grew up,
• 22:12
  Randall Kaplan: you've made a career out of saying things that other people can't see, when you were young, did you realize you saw things differently than other people,
• 22:23
  Sam Zell: I ranked, I will, I recognized for sure that I saw things differently. I didn't frankly, understand what it meant. In other words, you know, as I've gotten grayer and older, I've come to understand that, for whatever reasons, I am different, and I see things differently. And my perspective is different. You know, you asked me whether I was, you know, part of the popular group, I was never able to be part of the popular group, because I couldn't possibly adjust my thinking to the common, the common participant. And, and so I was constantly challenged by my own level of thinking, that made me act differently in and created environments. That, you know, later on in life turned out to be extraordinarily productive, and, and profitable.
• 23:23
  Sam Zell: But when I was a young kid, all I knew was, I was different.
• 23:28
  Sam Zell: And, frankly, that was, you know, something I discovered later on in life. It was also, at times quite lonely. Just as you know, 50 years later, you know, when I was, you know, buying up distressed real estate in the early 90s. And that, and, you know, one day I was, you know, standing at the wheel was in the lobby of the urban Trust Bank in New York, and I had just negotiated the purchase of a building that was in that they had foreclosed upon. And I stopped and I kind of looked over my shoulder and I said, how come everybody else is doing what I'm doing? Maybe I'm wrong.
• 24:19
  Sam Zell: How come although I'll come on in, there's lots of smart people. There's lots of people with money, how come I'm doing this time, literally doing it alone, just as I did in the, in the mid 70s. Until all of a sudden, I wasn't alone. But there's a serious period of loneliness. When you know, the what, when when when common, no viewpoints. You know, just don't, don't work with you and you you operate off your own.
• 24:58
  Sam Zell: You're on your own ledger.
• 25:01
  Randall Kaplan: When we talk about excellence, we're talking about our drive to be the best we can be or whatever we're doing. How old? Were you? Were you really made a conscious effort to be the best at what you did? And when you did? Was there a certain way you went about it?
• 25:20
  Sam Zell: I don't. I don't think that there was a certain way about it, per se. I think that I was driven by the desire to feel fulfilled. When I was a kid, I had a very close friend, and he and I were laying in the living room floor one day, maybe we were 17. And he looked at me, and he said, What makes you the way you are? So I obviously was probably driven at that point, too. And I looked at him and I said, you know, I think that, you know, every one of us is born with certain traits and skills and abilities. And, and I've always felt that my obligation is to maximize those talents that I've been given whatever they may be, and, and that's driven me more than anybody else. You just said, you know, that's an obligation to society.
• 26:38
  Randall Kaplan: When we're trying to improve, I think one way to do that is to work with people, better we are if you're a basketball player, you don't want to be the best player on the team, especially as you're making your way up. You want to work with play with people better when I came to Sun America, I was 27. And I was the junior guy in the senior team.
• 26:58
  Randall Kaplan: And what really made an impact on my life and my professional life, was working with an incredible group of people, including one senior person, Jim Velarde has gone off to create his own real estate company.
• 27:09
  Randall Kaplan: He's become a billionaire Jay wind trab, who was one of my two bosses, now CEO at Oak Tree. Did you work with more experienced people, especially when you're younger? And we're going to talk about your career and some of the stepping stones in the beginnings? But have you worked with people even in the in your work life that made you better?
• 28:28
  Sam Zell: Well, I think that that depends that you? The answer, of course, is yes. But I think the answer is adjusted accordingly. As you mentioned that my work life per se, has been quite different than most people who had jobs. You know, I went to law school, I graduated from law school, I actually even did reasonably well, in law school, I had a hell of a time getting a job, primarily because I told them what I did while I was in law school, and nobody couldn't believe that I'd want to be a lawyer. And they were right, but I didn't know it. And so I only really worked for anybody else. For four days, I only worked with a quote, group of people that didn't report to me for four days. So as opposed to your experience, I never got to work with the kinds of people that you, you know, had those kinds of enormous influences on you. But instead, what ended up for me being the case, since almost from the very first moments that I left the theoretical practice of law, I was always raising money for various kinds of Real Estate projects. And I, as a result, I met fascinating men and women who did all kinds of things, you made all kinds of lots of money and needed, you know, opportunities to invest. And, you know, and I was apparently a very good salesman, because, you know, except for the very first deal I ever did, you know, people really stood in line to mess with me. So, but but those people were Vassy were fabulous people. I mean, they were, they were the excellence generation, you know of their generations, as reflected by economically how they did and, and the breadth of what they did. Is was enormous and so it it for sure. kindled all my curiosity They encouraged me for
• 31:02
  Randall Kaplan: Sam use you froze on your end. We lost you there. Okay, you're back. Yeah, you're back.
• 31:11
  Sam Zell: Okay. Do you know where I froze?
• 31:14
  Randall Kaplan: You froze toward the end of we're asking the question did you work with people that made you better? You were saying that you raised a lot of money from people you never worked for people before.
• 31:27
  Randall Kaplan: But you're, you're pretty much finished with the answer was kind of a tail end of that.
• 31:34
  Randall Kaplan: Okay. Okay. Let's talk about education and its importance, incredible importance in all of our lives. And what we do. Is education, the first cornerstone to our future success.
• 31:49
  Sam Zell: Well, let's, let's say that education is the minimum requirement. In other words, I can't imagine how anybody would survive and in this world, and now we're talking about 2021, but you know, even think about 1951, or, or anything in between, education has always been really critical. And there's very little doubt that my education contributed to my ability to make the right decisions.
• 32:24
  Randall Kaplan: You went to the University of Michigan, which I've already said, and we both know is the greatest school on Earth. Absolutely did. You did well there and that you went to law school, as you mentioned, for 99.999% of people, they go to college or grad school before they enter the real world and start their careers. I like so much of your career and your DNA, you were the point 000 1%, who didn't go that route, you got into real estate, your junior year by managing a 15 unit building, and return for free room and board. And then you kept going you are managing the owners, and other properties as well. And this is crazy. But by the time you graduated, that venture was netting $150,000, which in today's dollars is 1.2 million. Then you met Robert Lurie, your fraternity brother in a pie who became your partner, by the time you graduated law school in 1966.
• 33:18
  Randall Kaplan: The two of you manage a total of 4000 apartments and personally owned more than 100 buildings.
• 33:29
  Randall Kaplan: That's just insane. Can you give us more insight into how that happened? And was that some kind of a master plan?
• 33:38
  Sam Zell: No, matter of fact, it was anything but a master plan.
• 33:45
  Sam Zell: You know, somebody once asked me, you know, how would I best describe, you know, who I am?
• 33:49
  Sam Zell: And what I do? And? And the answer is that I consider myself a professional opportunist. And so when we took over that first 50 unit building, and we worked hard, and we learned a lot, when the second building was offered to us, it was just a natural and wouldn't even, you know, one Newman a difficult choice. And then when the third building was offered to us, you know, Laurie was the guy we hired to run the third building, and that eventually, we, you know, ran a whole bunch of other buildings and then started buying buildings and, and just all became well, why not? I mean, you know, I spent a couple of years acquiring a square block and in Arbor, Michigan, and you know, and it basically started out with a friend of mine who was in law school who had graduated, and he had some kind of a gastronomical problem. And so when he became a freshman at Michigan, his father bought him a house. And he rented out the other rooms to other people, and, and was able to cook his own food. Well, the layman eventually graduated from law school and, and he called me one night and he said somebody wanted to buy the building the the house, and what did I think?
• 35:18
  Sam Zell: And I said, I don't know if so I'll go look at it. And I call you back tomorrow and tell you what I think. And I basically called him back and said, you know, we, my partners, and I would buy it from you. He said fine, so I we paid him a little more than what he was offered.
• 35:38
  Sam Zell: And that was the first of those that square block and so then we own the corner. And I said to to to local real estate guys who want that partners. Geez, maybe it'd be worth more if we owned the one Next Door. So I mean, what bought the one next door?
• 35:56
  Sam Zell: And then once we own those two, then it began. Next question is maybe we'd be be worth more if we bought another one, the one next door. And so literally, I became the king of the street.
• 36:09
  Sam Zell: As I went from house to house to house and literally buying up by, you know what a mile, it openly turned out to be like a half a block or three quarters of a block. And but it was, it was quite an experience.
• 36:24
  Randall Kaplan: You already mentioned you went to law school, you did well there, then you're looking for a job after you graduate, despite having made a tremendous amount of money as an undergrad. And in law school, you were wealthy by the time you graduated, and if you look at the average worker, you are extremely wealthy. And then you're trying to get a law school job. And you mentioned you had a hard time. So how many job interviews did you have? And how did you land the last one?
• 36:57
  Randall Kaplan: And what did that partner tell you? Because you did set a world record for how long you were there?
• 37:04
  Sam Zell: Yeah, I'm sure that Well, I think I think I struck out in 43 different attempts, I was at 43, interview 43 interviews with 43 different firms. And the net result was that I got not one single job offer. I had one kind of a funny experience, where toward the end of this was really a horrible experience, as you may you could imagine. You know, I got into the first interview, and I got a second interview. And then I got an interview with the boss, you know, the guy whose name was on the door. And so I went in, and he was a wood panel, the lawyer's office, and he was on the phone. So he told me to sit down and I nodded his head and he got off the phone, he got up because the daughter was off. So he said, Tell me about your deals. I said tell you about my deals, I want a job. He says, Oh, we would never hire you.
• 38:10
  Sam Zell: You'd be here three months, and you'd be off. And I said, What about Perry Mason, and he just laughed at me, he said you what you don't understand is that what you've done? Is not what anybody else could do. What you know, it's a lot more guys who could draft contracts that could compete with me, as opposed to what you've done. And I didn't realize it, but he was right.
• 38:39
  Sam Zell: And the job I did get was with a very small law firm. That was kind of a half rocks firm, half real estate developer. And so they thought that, you know, that I would fit and, you know, and, and from the firm's perspective, I think they paid me $5,600 A week in 1966. And that, and you know, and I was there for four days and, and drafted a contract and, and came to a relatively quick resolution revenue resolution that this just wasn't my cup of tea. And I went in to see the senior partner on Friday morning, and I said, I just don't think this is a good use of my time. And he was stunned that he just looked at me and he says, you quitting?
• 39:34
  Sam Zell: I said, Yeah. And he said, What are you gonna do? I said, Well, I'm just gonna go back to doing deals like I did, you know, right before I got this job. And he said, Well, why don't you just stay here? And we'll do the legal work. And we'll invest in your deals. So I said, Sure. So that's what happened. So I stayed with no state office with a law firm. They did the legal work, and I did the deals. They and many, some of some of their other clients put up money to go along with, you know, what we need to make it work. And that work was was just fine until about maybe a year into it. You know, I was fortunately very successful. And the disparity between what I was earning and what everybody else in the firm was earning became much too great. And so I in effect, went out and became independent.
• 40:36
  Randall Kaplan: 20 years ago, a tech billionaire named Peter Thiel, one of the founders of PayPal, the first outside investor in Facebook, launched a program that awards $100,000 to promising young entrepreneurs under 23 years old, are willing to drop out of college and turn their ideas into businesses, it's had very mixed results.
• 40:56
  Randall Kaplan: What do you think about that plan?
• 41:05
  Sam Zell: I know Peter, and I'm familiar with the program, I think I'm pretty critical of it.
• 41:10
  Sam Zell: Because they think it's, it's waving the flag of money. And maybe, you know, maybe encourage you somebody to make a bad life decision, and in, you know, alter their educational process to pursue something like that.
• 41:32
  Sam Zell: So that'd be my my observations.
• 41:32
  Sam Zell: You know, clearly, I think the idea of encouraging people to pursue entrepreneurial objectives is I'm very much in favor of that. But but not at not at the price of, of disturbing education and raising the risk that you may not, you may not return to it. And, you know, and so that'd be my viewpoint.
• 42:03
  Randall Kaplan: I'll just digress here, I have a scholarship at University of Michigan, it's a full ride for student from Michigan interested in business. And I'm not going to mention his name, obviously.
• 42:13
  Randall Kaplan: But we get he gets a scholarship, I don't hear from him. And then next year, I call the university Hey, what's up with this kid? And they said he didn't enroll in college. And I said, What are you talking about? Did you try to find them?
• 42:28
  Randall Kaplan: He said, Yeah, we tried to find them, and we couldn't get ahold of them. So I go on LinkedIn, and I find them in 30 seconds, and I call the guy and he is dropped out of college. To work in New York City. He's from Las Vegas comes from a very underprivileged background. He's in New York City making $40,000 a year to join a startup that was funded by Excel ventures, they had raised something like$3 million to be the chief of staff. I begged the guy to go back to school I had Brad Keywell call on my had a bunch of friends call them. And he never went back to Michigan. It was it was unfortunate, the company failed. Last time I checked, he had gone to City College and he had dropped out of school, it can be tempting to do things that are just craziness. So one of the goals of In Search of Excellence is to encourage people to pursue their passions on their path to realizing their dreams. And for Manny, as we talked about, that means starting your own business being an entrepreneur. But the stats show that 75% of new businesses fail after 10 years.
• 43:37
  Randall Kaplan: And there's a lot of people listening to this, and watching this who are thinking, I got to start my own company, I want to do it. I'm afraid to do it. And they're planning for it. But given the low success rate, should that put a damper on being an entrepreneur?
• 43:53
  Sam Zell: Why? Well, I certainly think it should be taken into consideration. You know, when you talk about an entrepreneur, you know, one of the things you talk about is the fact that to an entrepreneur, the word failure doesn't exist. Maybe it didn't work out, but you get up off your ass. And you start again, I think that the biggest risk is not, you know, reaching out and failing. It's not being realistic about when to say no go so that you make a commitment to pursue an idea. And it works out or doesn't work out within a very specified period of time.
• 44:46
  Sam Zell: You don't run the risk of you know, find yourself 10 years later, with a startup that didn't work. And most productive years of your business career are behind you.
• 45:02
  Randall Kaplan: Some people are born with the entrepreneur gene, some people are not born with it. For those that aren't born with it, can you learn how to become an entrepreneur?
• 45:15
  Sam Zell: You know, it's that's maybe the 60 vote our question that we've spent a fortune and many years, you know, trying to find out. You know, maybe you get a start by defining what it is an entrepreneur. It's, it's because it's a it's a big psychological scenario. It's a high level of self confidence.
• 45:42
  Sam Zell: It's an ability to absorb rejection. It's an ability to shut off the noise and I can recognize that conventional wisdom is not necessarily the answer to this to the problem.
• 46:02
  Sam Zell: Ah, you take all those things in, you end up with different kinds of entrepreneurs. I mean, we ran a program that we ended up with the University of Michigan where we ran a nationwide contest to design the syllabus in entrepreneurship.
• 46:24
  Sam Zell: And this is an this resulted from me sitting with the dean of the business school in 1979. And reading his curricula. And I looked at him and I said, How could the word entrepreneur not exist in your entire curriculum, with all these courses that you're putting out? The word entrepreneur doesn't even exist.
• 46:50
  Sam Zell: So we ran this contest, open to any, any academic, to basically design a course. And the first winner was a woman. And the woman taught music at Wayne State University. And her specialty was composition in, she basically taught the course, as in showing that in order to be an effective composer, you have to be able to bring together a whole bunch of ideas, you need to get focus, you need to make it happen, you need to be driven. But How different is it to compose a piece as it is to start a business. And maybe it isn't very different. So it was very interesting. That was the first winner.
• 47:44
  Randall Kaplan: In the late 60s, early 70s, you notice the trend that some other people were in seeing you took advantage of it.
• 47:54
  Randall Kaplan: Jimmy Carter helped you out there a little bit with inflation. And then you wrote an eight page paper, which you can still find online for those of you want to read it. It's a fascinating read. It's a technical read. But it's fascinating. And it was titled The grave dancer. And you met one thing, it's sometimes been interpreted as something else.
• 48:16
  Randall Kaplan: Can you talk about? The term and what you saw in what you did?
• 48:20
  Sam Zell: Yeah. Excuse me. You know, in in early 70, roughly 66, right out of law school, to 73, I was operating under the thesis that, that the real estate investment world was divided between the, quote major cities and the rest of the country. And that, whereas an investor might take a 4% return to invest in Chicago, he couldn't even imagine taking any return two or three times it to go to in Arbor, Michigan, or some, you know, little town, I decided that that's where the opportunity was. And so that's what I did. And, and I watched it all happen. And I remember vividly that I had purchased an apartment project in Orlando, Florida, was beautiful and fully occupied, and not. And then in the course of roughly a year and a half, maybe two years. All around it were quote unquote, new projects being constructed.
• 49:39
  Sam Zell: And occupancy went from 100% to 68. And that's when I said, Oh my God, you know, they're going to oversupply the whole country.
• 49:52
  Sam Zell: And then I need to stop making investments, building distressed property management company, and then begin buying distressed assets. And that's what I did.
• 50:10
  Sam Zell: And, you know, all I can say is that during that period of time, I ended up where I've toward the end of it, I ended up going to an NYU conference to hear guy I can't remember his name right now but Zack and Darth unfortunately, secondary was too old to to make a presentation at that time. But somebody came to me and said, You've been buying a policy distressed property.
• 50:47
  Sam Zell: Would you be willing to write a piece for NYU? Real Estate read You describe it. So I sat down and I started to put together had never written an article for publication before, and tried to put together the elements of what was involved in, in buying distressed assets. And I got to the end of it, and then I start thinking about the name that I should put on it. And, and then I kind of referred to the end, the last thing I said, which was, you know, you really needed to be careful, because you, you're really dancing around a lot of opportunity. But if you're not careful, you can fall in the pit. And that led me to think about a grave and grave dancer. And so that was the name of the article.
• 51:43
  Randall Kaplan: Let's switch gears on our path to success, as we've talked about already, we have challenges and failures along the way. And if we're going to achieve excellence, we need to overcome them to achieve our goals. And I want to talk about the Chicago Tribune deal, which was a very high profile investment, especially because we live in Chicago and it didn't go so well. In late 2007, he bought a controlling share in the Tribune Company for 315 million. You beat out bids from Ron Burkle, and my former boss, Eli Brode. The deal included the Chicago Tribune and the LA Times, bunch of other newspapers Newsday, the Chicago Cubs at 25% stake and Comcast SportsNet, Chicago. A year later, the company files for bankruptcy, it is 7.6 billion in assets 13 billion in debt. At the time, it was the largest bankruptcy in the history of American media.
• 52:39
  Randall Kaplan: What went wrong here? And as part of that, can you talk about how you evaluate risk, and how what you do with risk can also be a huge part of our success?
• 52:51
  Sam Zell: Well, first of all, unfortunately, we signed that deal in April, the Federal Communications Commission withheld their approval until December. So during that period of time, there was a significant erosion in the business. But we were unable to do anything about it. When we took over and we did our we did our due diligence, we ran a we did a model that assumed a 6% regression in revenue from print ads. So we were aware of the fact that the print ad business was was starting to become subject to the internet competition.
• 53:50
  Sam Zell: Anyway, we took over January 1, give or take 1988 2008. And in the first 30 days, print revenue dropped 30%. I would tell you that and that stayed that way all year. When you talk about industry like media, a revenue drop of 30% is not salvageable.
• 54:25
  Sam Zell: And, and so consequently, we ended up losing the property and losing the deal. And I learned No, like you do from everything you do. You learn from it. You know, what I learned from it was that I really thought that the decision to buy it, assuming that my projections of what was going to happen, were reasonably right. I still think was a good decision at the time. You know, and I looked at it and it's a real estate deal. And we got the real estate, we got the we got all these different newspapers.
• 55:09
  Sam Zell: We had valuations on the sale of each part of the tribune that we were getting. We created a very tax attractive methodology for ownership. But probably the most important thing we did is we lost $350 million. We, in effect, established that as the risk amount. We were willing to risk to do the deal. So that we lost, but we're able to talk about it afterwards and continue. I think I learned that you know, being able to understand not only what the risk is, but limit the risk to a level you could handle and allow yourself to, in effect pursue opportunity thereafter. So it was probably when not probably from a, from an economic point of view, it was for sure we're still I've ever done in my life.
• 56:09
  Sam Zell: I've never lost $350 million before. But I probably, you know, grew off of the experience. And, and certainly appreciative of my own level of discipline to avoid, you know, getting myself in unknown indeterminate loss versus a fixed amount.
• 56:37
  Randall Kaplan: You complete this sentence for me. If during your career, you correctly assess the risks, and the likelihood of you excelling is.
• 56:54
  Randall Kaplan: Sam, can you hear me? Yes. Okay.
• 56:54
  Randall Kaplan: Did you hear the question?
• 56:59
  Sam Zell: I think the question is, you know, you really asked me, what percentage of the deals I did do they think when I did them was going to succeed?
• 57:11
  Randall Kaplan: Well, the, the question. Sure. Okay, well, we'll answer that. Well, let's go back to the specific question. Would you complete the sentence, if during your career, you correctly assess the risks, the likelihood of you excelling is blank?
• 57:32
  Sam Zell: At present?
• 57:36
  Randall Kaplan: The 20% is factors that are uncontrollable to you. outside influences.
• 57:44
  Sam Zell: Yeah, or mistakes. I mean, you gotta recognize the fact that, you know, you know, if you're right at present at the time, you're, you know, remember we pay guys to play baseball $25 million a year to be right, one to three times.
• 58:02
  Sam Zell: I'm already telling you, my goal is 80. And so, you know, there are mistakes, things out of my control. You know, remember, we lost one company that September 11? No way I can predict number 11. But, you know, it happened.
• 58:26
  Randall Kaplan: We talk about rejection. We've talked about it a little bit before. But overcoming it is very important to be successful in your career as an entrepreneur. Can you just talk about how hairspray played a role in your success?
• 58:42
  Sam Zell: Well, this summer, I don't know, the summer before I see you you're in college. I spend as a traveling salesman, for Helene Curtis industries.
• 58:55
  Sam Zell: And I was selling stop and suave shampoo and Aaron whole bunch of stuff. And, as you might suspect, the the, the customers that gave me to call on were customers that really weren't called on or taken care of by the guys who made a living doing this. And so I got I mean, I, I, I had one lady pick up my briefcase, and then pick me up, she weighed about 100 pounds, and just threw me out on the street when I told her what I wanted. And I sold it. I spent, you know, more than one day in the basement of a drugstore, taking back a whole bunch stuff that had been sold to them by the last, you know, salesman that had called them. And then sure them this product was terrific. And instead it ended up being on a shelf downstairs.
• 59:58
  Sam Zell: So I saw a lot of rejection. I you know, I finally, you know, finally it got to the point where I would walk in and say I am fooling Curtis. And the guy says so what? And, and I say well, it keeps me off the street. But you know, just you know, and then all of a sudden, the guy you know who really needs another salesman to talk to, like he needs a hole in the head says when I get it's kitty funny and I'll talk to him and and eventually I made progress and was able to, you know, was able to execute sales that were totally unexpected by the company.
• 1:00:47
  Randall Kaplan: Let's talk about investment trends. Every few years. There's always Something new, the latest and greatest.
• 1:00:55
  Randall Kaplan: And I want to start out by talking about the annual gift you sent out to around 650 or your friends and associates.
• 1:01:03
  Randall Kaplan: Their individually numbered, custom made bronze statues, music boxes that reflect your public thinking and predictions for the upcoming year. You sent me one in 1999 and I had a naked man standing on a stack of Wall Street Journal's and it predicted a catastrophic collapse of technology companies under the title The emperor has no clothes. The man is wrapped in a ribbon and the ribbon has ticker symbols of the high flying tech companies at the time. Web and E toys Dr. Koop and others not occupy. So thank you for that one. And you hit a button on the back of the statue and a recording comes down with your voice for an introduction as to what comes next. And you say new technology will change our lives but it will not change the basic laws of economics.
• 1:01:49
  Randall Kaplan: Then the music to the Paul Simon song 50 ways to leave your lover comes on and there's a guy who sounds exactly like Paul Simon who sings a parody 50 ways to make a billion this was two years before the.com crash. And as you predicted, all those companies went bankrupt or were sold for pennies on the dollar.
• 1:02:09
  Randall Kaplan: Now we're seeing the latest fads and investment trends. You got Bitcoin, cryptocurrency, the Gamestop phenomenon and the very latest and FTS, non fungible tokens were three weeks ago, a JPG file made by a guy named Mike Winckelmann. This guy's a graphic designer turns digital artists who's known as people or people crap, and a digital picture he made so that a Christie's online auction for$69.3 million. That's a JPG file, not a Warhol, you can hang on your wall. It's an NFT frenzy out there, and the best venture capital firms in the world are backing them and guys like Mark Cuban, who's calling them this, the next big thing? What are your thoughts on all of this?
• 1:03:03
  Sam Zell: I'm too old. I don't understand him. I think we, you know, I'm old enough to remember pet rocks. And I think what you're describing are, you know, extreme example. You know, we we as a culture of our is human beings, you know, played the South Sea bubble. And we've been involved in lots of different trends. And that's some of the stuff you're describing. You know, I, you know, I think, you know, there is role for crypto and there is a role for, you know, similar, you know, possibilities. But generally speaking, I think people are responding to fads, as opposed to make intelligent decisions.
• 1:04:04
  Randall Kaplan: I want to switch gears and talk about mentoring and role models and their importance in our success. As part of that. I want to talk about the first chapter of your book and the first time you and I met. The first chapter is called an impossible life. And the central theme of the book is that anything is possible.
• 1:04:22
  Randall Kaplan: That's actually been my motto for last 20 years since I went public. It's on my Instagram page. It's what I preach to my interns and my mentees and in my public speaking engagements. And I want to share a story about which leads up to our first meeting, I had a lot of struggles when I was younger. I was bullied because I stuttered kids would make fun of me. I did not have a lot of confidence, but I always did well in school at Michigan. I graduated the top 1% of my class with honors from Northwestern law school. But I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. So I took $400 In my Bar Mitzvah money. I made 100 T shirts and went door to door and the dorms I get kicked out to go on the other door. It was much harder to start a company in those days than it is today.
• 1:05:11
  Randall Kaplan: There were only a few of us doing it. Me, Jeff Blau, Brad Keywell, and two others. It's a small world. Brad is one of your protege is the founder of for public companies is a billionaire. Jeff Blau isn't far behind is the CEO of the related companies, which is the largest developer in the world, and I get to Michigan. I'm looking around. And I see the name as hell everywhere and I'm wondering who is this guy? So I looked you up. I read about your background. I said to myself, I'd love to meet that guy one day. And be like that guy one day. So fast forward a few years. I'm 31 years old when I come I goes Publix and a reporter from the Detroit Free Press named Jerome the van calls me up out of the blue one day and says he wants to do a story about a kid from Detroit from modest means to strike the big and technology. And I didn't want to do the story. I didn't know what people were going to talk about. I thought they're going to focus on the money. But my old boss, Eli Broad, convinced me to do it. Because if I corroborated I can help influence the outcome of the story. So the piece comes out, and it's incredibly flattering.
• 1:06:22
  Randall Kaplan: And later that night, drone calls me. It's 7pm in LA 10pm in Detroit, I tell him, I love it.
• 1:06:29
  Randall Kaplan: I think that we talked for a few minutes about many things. Then we get to talk about Michigan, where I just been invited to join the undergraduate board. He asked me if I knew you, I said, No. He asked if I want to meet you. So I said, Yes. He said, he's gonna call you right then and there and you call me back.
• 1:06:47
  Randall Kaplan: I'm thinking, There's no way a reporter No, Sam Zell that way to be calling you at that hour.
• 1:06:55
  Randall Kaplan: And I'm thinking there's no way even if he did that, you're gonna pick up the phone. So sure enough, he calls me back five minutes later, and it gives me your number. And I said, I should call you now. I'm thinking Wow. Nervously and you invited me it's I call you pick up the phone, he invited me to your house in Malibu two days later, on the Friday afternoon.
• 1:07:14
  Randall Kaplan: I had just bought a Porsche 911.
• 1:07:14
  Randall Kaplan: This is the car. It's my dream car used to go in the Porsche dealership. Once or twice a year, I'd sit in the car and tell myself one day I'm going to own one of these. And there I am driving along PCH, top down radio was blasting, on my way to meet you. I'm a founder of a successful public company, I've made a good amount of money, I'm fake, I can't believe where I'm going sit down. With Sam Zell one of my business idols as living my dream, telling myself that anything is possible. We sat for three hours talking about business life, responsibilities of being wealthy, and giving back. So as we plan, so thank you for all that. As we plan for our future success and our search for excellence, I want to talk about the importance of others. To help teach guide encouraged us to achieve our goals. I know your dad was one of your mentors. Bucky, tell us about Jay Pritzker, how did you meet him? What influence did he have on you? It's not only a business person, as a businessman, but a person as well.
• 1:08:36
  Sam Zell: Well, Jay was one of those investors that I got to know as a result of, you know, Hawking my concepts and ideas. I found him extraordinarily challenging and extraordinarily interesting. And I think the smartest business head I've ever encountered, and I used to sit at his desk, and I spend the whole day there, he make deals and talk on the phone, and we talk in between, and he had an enormous impact on my evolution, and I learned a lot and maybe, you know, if I had, if I had to identify one characteristics that I took from that relationship, that was the characteristic of make it simple. That, in effect, if you're going to succeed, you've got to be able to have a plan that has a simple execution, that the risk of execution is the most underrated risk, one can have. And yet the story of people not understanding that is Legion. So that was, you know, probably the best mentor experience in my life. And, you know, we, you know, Jay died.
• 1:10:16
  Sam Zell: You know, I don't know, maybe, you know, 20 years ago, but for a period of 25 years, I interfaced with him and worked with him. And I think, you know, I was very lucky to have learned at his desktop.
• 1:10:37
  Randall Kaplan: I love meeting successful people to this day.
• 1:10:41
  Randall Kaplan: It's one of my most enjoyable things I love learning. JB Pritzker was my classmate in law school, and he invited me to come speak at the law school about the Trans Union. case a Supreme Court case regarding the business judgment rule, which held that directors of a public company had exercised reasonable prudence in making a decision or if they didn't, they'd be held personally liable for decisions.
• 1:11:06
  Randall Kaplan: In that case, Jay comes and speaks. I came to class in a suit. And as he walked out of the building, I followed him out of the building. And I said, Excuse me, Mr. Pritzker. I'm Randy Kaplan. Nice to meet you.
• 1:11:23
  Randall Kaplan: I'd love to sit down for a cup of coffee. He said, let's take a walk. So walk back to his apartment on Lakeshore drive.
• 1:11:32
  Randall Kaplan: It's a 20 minute walk, when it's his apartment for a half hour drove me back to law school, in a Ford Tempo with am radio only, by the way. And that was a huge, huge moment for me. Later on. I asked JB, can I meet Robert Pritzker, his brother, so JB sets up a dinner, California Pizza Kitchen across from the east bank club. I'm all nervous.
• 1:11:57
  Randall Kaplan: And I'm sitting there. And they come. And I got to ask him every deal of the origins of what became the Marmon group, and the first company, his father's, you know, as a successful lawyer, and then he started buying companies, the first company they bought was a paint company for $6 million. And for me to meet these people, it made a huge impact on me, and I love, love learning from people who are successful, it motivates me.
• 1:12:33
  Randall Kaplan: And that's one of the goals of this podcast, too. Let's talk about the culture at your company. In 50 years, you've only had one senior person leave and being recruited away. And this guy came back in six months, that has to be another one of your world records. It says a tremendous about it says a tremendous amount about you, what goes into creating a culture? And how important is it to your success?
• 1:13:05
  Sam Zell: Well, I'm a great believer in culture. That's part of the reason I think this work from home concept is like that rocks. I think we need to be together, I think that it's very important. My definition of culture is the enemy is without Abe Lincoln might have succeeded with a Team of Rivals. I don't think I want a Team of Rivals. I want a team of people who work together and take on outside challenges. I operate my my world on on the very simple thesis. And that is access and lack of hierarchy. And the guy who left and came back, I asked him after he came back why he came back, he was making more money and had a better title.
• 1:14:00
  Sam Zell: And he said it's very simple. He said, When I worked for UCM, I'd sit there and work on a problem.
• 1:14:08
  Sam Zell: And if I didn't know the answer, or if I had a question, I'd walk down the hall and get the answer to the question. Now I write a memo and wait two weeks to find out the answer. So I think that, you know, creating that kind of a culture, creating an environment where everybody talks to everybody else, and everybody add support to everybody else. And we're all in it together. And from the very beginning, I've created a scenario where people, you know, participate in the vestments we make. So we have, you know, continued alignment of interest.
• 1:14:49
  Sam Zell: And I think that is a major contributor to be successful operation.
• 1:14:54
  Randall Kaplan: I'm also going to mention there, you're accessible to people who are not at your company. I call your office a couple of times a year.
• 1:15:00
  Randall Kaplan: I'm coming to Chicago, can we get together? If you're there?
• 1:15:03
  Randall Kaplan: It's for sure. Yes. And I'm not calling for you. And you pick up the phone. Hey, Randy, what's up, which is always great to hear your voice. I want to talk about fun. It's an important part of all of our success. It's a huge part of your life. You have Zell's angels you take a motor sip of micro Moke motorcycle trip each year with some of your friends in a 1985 You did a Wolf of Wall Street Journal interview and you told them if it ain't fun, we don't do it. Next day you come to work, and the office all has t shirts work that's a fit and fun. We don't do it. So let's talk about enjoyment and being good yourself when we need to talk about your birthday parties. The best way I can explain them is that I can have to explain now?
• 1:15:54
  Sam Zell: Well, I think the standard is very simple. That night, I get up and I welcome everybody. And I say to everybody, the standard of this evening is not being able to describe it tomorrow morning.
• 1:16:06
  Sam Zell: And we assemble a very people, we do it every two or three years, we try and get, you know, pretty outstanding entertainment that turns it into a private concert. And it's worked out to be a lot of fun. And we've had some wonderful entertainers and some wonderfully nice. But, you know, I think that, you know, saying this, using the sentence of any fun we don't do it is really what it's all about. I think that I've always been interested in I mean, I do a lot of traveling in the air 1000 hours a year, I've been almost everywhere in the world and some of the terrific, some of it not.
• 1:17:01
  Sam Zell: But I think that's part of my own, satisfying my own sense of curiosity. And, to me, that's a lot of fun. And I get to have a lot of fun out of meeting interesting and challenging people from different societies and in kind of understanding how they're responding to the impact of what's going on.
• 1:17:24
  Randall Kaplan: The party itself is incredible. You've had Elton John, twice, Fleetwood Mac, the Eagles, Eric Clapton played the last one. And the fun starts with the invitation, which is a T shirt that contains clues as to who is playing that night? Do you come up with the clues because most people are never gonna guess in a million years who's playing
• 1:17:50
  Sam Zell: sometimes. Sometimes, it's done by the guy who handles putting the evening together.
• 1:17:56
  Sam Zell: But the whole idea is, you know, to make to turn it into a super, super great evening. The T shirts are designed to make everybody look the same. So that we don't have people going out of their way to dress up or, you know, create special costumes during everybody, weren't you the entry, the end, the ticket entry is is the t shirt. And then they have a souvenir for the experience.
• 1:18:32
  Randall Kaplan: Everybody listening and watching today wants to hear the answer to this question. What are the elements of success?
• 1:18:43
  Sam Zell: What are the elements of success? I think they start probably with the 11th commandment, which is Thou shalt not take myself seriously. I think that if you're really successful, you have a humility and understanding why you're successful. It didn't happen because lightning hits deck or something like that. It's having the ambition, having the energy, having the curiosity, having the interest. And, and having the self confidence to execute on what you learned. And I beginning to be a super observer. You know, I mean, not, you know, in the Super observer, lots of different things. You know, one of the most interesting things that I've learned was, you know, between 1990 and 2000, there was a demographic change in our country. And we delayed the we basically, society, delayed marriage, changed the way we live, changed the amount of disposable income, changed some of the ways we invested, being curious, recognizing opportunities, identifying and then executing. That's the definition of success. And then, in the end, I think you're going to make a difference. In other words, I think, you know, you know, everybody needs to be concerned about their legacy.
• 1:20:33
  Sam Zell: And I think their legacy has to be, you know, things they've achieved. I don't think putting your name on a building is legacy. I think creating a program that perpetuates itself and, and adds people to the definition of learners. It is joules? Is the answer. You know, and things of that nature.
• 1:20:59
  Randall Kaplan: You lead me right into my next question, talking about philanthropy legacy, you and Helen are two of the most generous philanthropists of our time. I'd love to know where your desire to help comes from, and at what age did you start giving back, you don't have to be wealthy to start giving back. And as a follow up to that you've done so much for so many people given away hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. Do you ever sit back and think about Gosh, think about all of the not hundreds of 1000s life, but the millions of lives you've improved in a very material way.
• 1:21:44
  Sam Zell: And go back to your definition of success suggests that you don't sit around thinking about that. I think you, you know you, you look for opportunities, you look for ways to make a difference, and execute accordingly. And I think that if you do that, then by definition, you've improved the lives of others, you've created opportunity for others. And that you knew left a mark on society.
• 1:22:18
  Sam Zell: We, you know, we've done a lot of charitable work with a lot of work and education, we've done a lot of work in the medical health, you know, medical arena.
• 1:22:36
  Sam Zell: And most of the time, I'd say, you know, very little of it is, quote, a check to the American Cancer Society. That doesn't cut it, it would cut it is when you do something that you're involved in. So when I do something like the University of Michigan Entrepreneurial Center, I go to all the meetings, I participate in the same manner, in other things that we do.
• 1:23:07
  Sam Zell: Ellen's created a writing program with the University of Michigan, goes up there and spends the day and talks to the kids. And I think that's marvelous, but they need, you know, they need idols, and they need people they can look up to and, and that's part of the process. So it's more than just writing a check. It's identifying how you can make a difference how long it's been head of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra for the last six years to dramatically change the organization. Isn't that terrific? I mean, yeah, that's what that's what makes him great. And that's what we should do.
• 1:23:47
  Randall Kaplan: What impact do you want to have on the world?
• 1:23:55
  Sam Zell: I, I don't think that I think like that. I think that I think that I think that, you know, that the people I've met the people who read my my book, people have a perception of me, you know, have a perception of someone who, you know, goes along and, and participates and tries to make a difference and tries to do the right thing and tries to be a person of his word. You know, these are all you know, all simple, simple concepts are not, you know, non esoteric scenarios. You know, I don't need to build a monument and I don't want to build my image. But I want to help a lot of people get there.
• 1:24:48
  Randall Kaplan: Before we sign off today, do you have any other advice to those listening or watching about how to achieve excellence and go about achieving our dreams?
• 1:24:59
  Sam Zell: I would probably end by saying that. I think that people need to understand that unless you're going to design rocket engines, or unless you're going to do esoteric biotech.
• 1:25:20
  Sam Zell: You need a above average IQ, that's maybe 120 or something like that. And then the difference beyond that becomes motivation. Becomes discipline becomes how you handle yourself that I think our society puts too much emphasis on IQ and not an election, not empathy, not enough emphasis on EQ and having EQ is really The answer going forward.
• 1:25:56
  Randall Kaplan: Sammy made a huge difference in my life as a role model as a friend. I'm super grateful for that. And I thank you for sharing your story
• 1:26:05
  Sam Zell: today. My pleasure.
• 1:26:05
  Sam Zell: Bye bye. Thank you.
• 1:26:08
  Randall Kaplan: Thanks, Sam.