Latest / TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast / #745: The AI Approval Layer Is Fake with Zach Herbert

Transcript

#745: The AI Approval Layer Is Fake with Zach Herbert · TFTC: A Bitcoin Podcast

• 0:00
  You've had a dynamic where money has become freer than free.
• 0:10
  We talk about a Fed just gone nuts.
• 0:13
  All the central banks going nuts.
• 0:16
  So it's all acting like safe haven.
• 0:18
  I believe that in a world where central bankers are tripping over themselves to devalue their currency, Bitcoin wins.
• 0:25
  In the world of fiat currencies, Bitcoin is the victor.
• 0:28
  I mean, that's part of the bull case for Bitcoin.
• 0:31
  If you're not paying attention, you probably should be.
• 0:36
  Back Herbert, can't believe it's been six years, sir.
• 0:39
  Yeah, the world is very different from when I last came on.
• 0:44
  Yeah, I mean, we were just talking about it, too.
• 0:46
  I think maybe we start there.
• 0:49
  Because it's something I'm fascinated about and something we were just talking about.
• 0:52
  You've noticed that we're leaning into it.
• 0:54
  You said that you're leaning to it personally.
• 0:56
  And on the business side, that foundation, I think the AI wave that has hit over the last two years is really, I mean, just from observation and experience, it has founders thinking differently about building businesses, particularly within Bitcoin.
• 1:16
  And I'm just curious for somebody working on a hardware and security product, what is the best approach for you guys or how have you approached it?
• 1:27
  Because there's many considerations I feel like that your team would have to take in compared to ours, which is just media where we're not really securing data.
• 1:38
  And so we can be a bit more liberal.
• 1:40
  But I feel like for you guys, it can certainly help.
• 1:43
  But you have to correct me if I'm wrong.
• 1:45
  have some guardrails to make sure that everything's copacetic at the end of the day.
• 1:50
  Yeah, I mean, the AI stuff has been incredible.
• 1:52
  And I wish we had had it when we started the business
• 1:56
  because it's allowing us to move so much faster than we would have otherwise.
• 2:01
  It's still getting better at the low-level embedded firmware
• 2:04
  and drivers and operating system stuff.
• 2:08
  So it's still not that great there.
• 2:10
  Improving every day, obviously, with every model.
• 2:12
  but like the pace at which we're able to start adding new features to our new devices and
• 2:20
  software and everything is insane. But I mean, of course, it has us very worried about the security
• 2:24
  side of things. And we have, I think, I don't know if it's a unique point of view, but I think
• 2:31
  when I hear the crossover between Bitcoin and AI, I know that's becoming very topical.
• 2:37
  a lot of Bitcoin podcasts.
• 2:41
  And, you know, I've heard I've heard this this intersection of Bitcoin and AI.
• 2:46
  And like, what does that mean?
• 2:47
  And typically what I hear from that is something like Bitcoin or lightning powered payments,
• 2:53
  right, being like the ideal source of, you know, money transfer between the AIs, which
• 3:00
  was a concept that is probably is over 10 years old from like the original 21 Balaji
• 3:07
  machine payable web, baby machine to machine payments, which was so long ago. I mean,
• 3:11
  that was maybe like 20, 15, I think. Yeah, it was, it was in the depths of the bear market when
• 3:17
  they were working on, on that. And then it ended up pivoting to earn and selling to Coinbase.
• 3:24
  But what we think about now is like bringing our Bitcoiner principles and point of view
• 3:32
  to securing AI. And I think that's like what we're most excited about at Foundation right now.
• 3:39
  Because if you think about it, I mean, we started with just the Bitcoin hardware wallet back in 2020.
• 3:44
  And when I came on, I think you were the first podcast I ever did,
• 3:49
  which I remember being so nervous for, because this was like, we were just a few months into
• 3:54
  the company and I never done like a podcast before. And I think about what I was talking
• 3:58
  about then it was, you know, open source hardware. We were doing the air gap QR codes. We were just
• 4:02
  doing a Bitcoin only hardware wallet. And those same like security principles that we have done
• 4:09
  for Bitcoin and other great companies right in the Bitcoin space too, where you want to,
• 4:13
  you want to have a human, like a person know what they're about to approve, right? And then
• 4:20
  explicitly authorize that transaction in a computer environment that they trust.
• 4:29
  that's effectively what a Bitcoin hardware wallet is.
• 4:32
  And that's effectively like the kind of tech that we've been building right
• 4:35
  since 2020.
• 4:36
  And I think you could bring those exact same principles to the AI side of
• 4:40
  things. And so when I think, and when foundation thinks about like, you know,
• 4:44
  the AI stuff and the crossover, yeah, there's,
• 4:46
  there's enormous challenges with the security side and we all feel it right
• 4:51
  now as users you know,
• 4:54
  you're mashing the approve button or you're just turning off the permissions
• 4:58
  and Claude or GPT and just letting it do its thing.
• 5:02
  We think about like,
• 5:04
  how can we bring our Bitcoin or principles
• 5:05
  after years of building hardware wallets
• 5:09
  and expand that beyond specifically Bitcoin approvals
• 5:14
  and maybe take that like to the entire AI world as well.
• 5:17
  So it's like Bitcoin principled security,
• 5:21
  but trying to bring it to like the broader tech space.
• 5:25
  So, I mean, just off the top of my head
• 5:27
  you're explaining that so when i'm thinking of bitcoin hardware you mentioned like air gaps so
• 5:31
  when we're when we're trying to secure bitcoin and create a private public key pair i mean the
• 5:37
  the way the the safest way to do it is to have an air gap device you create it offline and
• 5:44
  you you make sure that it's not connected to the the main goal is isolating the hardware from the
• 5:50
  the broader internet and I guess when it comes to bringing those Bitcoin principles to AI,
• 6:00
  how do you see that being accomplished? I mean, before we hit record, we were talking about Maple.
• 6:04
  Obviously, they have trusted execution environments in the enclaves. And this is something that
• 6:10
  I'm focusing more and more on because I think people are beginning to realize like, hey,
• 6:17
  OpenClaw and
• 6:18
  CloudCowork and GPT are
• 6:21
  incredible, but as you use
• 6:23
  it, the more and more you use it, the more and more
• 6:25
  it becomes ingrained in your business. You're like, how much
• 6:27
  information am I leaking to
• 6:29
  these frontier models and
• 6:31
  the companies that run them? Am I comfortable
• 6:33
  with that? I think it's a massive
• 6:35
  problem set that needs
• 6:37
  to be solved, and I think ultimately
• 6:39
  will be solved if we're going to do that.
• 6:41
  I think we could see ourselves hitting a
• 6:43
  point where people just get too uncomfortable doing
• 6:45
  this and essentially giving their personal and business lives over to the AI overlords at
• 6:53
  Anthropic and OpenAI. Yeah. I mean, it's tough because if you don't use it, you're not going to
• 6:59
  be able to compete. And so like if we at Foundation didn't use it, we would over the coming years need
• 7:05
  to hire huge numbers of people and everything. And I want to keep the team small, right? I want to
• 7:10
  I want to use this technology as leverage so that we can do a huge amount with a with a small team.
• 7:18
  And I think the privacy stuff is very important.
• 7:21
  And I think there's great companies working on the privacy side of things like Maple, you know, like you mentioned.
• 7:26
  And so I think our perspective is less about the privacy and more about like.
• 7:31
  you have a technology that is probably going to be, I don't know how you equate like the
• 7:39
  intelligence to human intelligence. It's, it's hard to equate it. Then you get into like the
• 7:44
  philosophical view. You have a technology that's like a more powerful than humans when it comes to
• 7:51
  computer use, computer security, right? You have that mythos model from last month from,
• 7:57
  from Claude and it's not even available to anyone yet. And if people are trying to figure out,
• 8:02
  is that hype? Is that, is that overhyped? Is it real? I don't know, but I think we can see that
• 8:09
  the trajectory that, that the space is following. And so I think like the really interesting
• 8:15
  question that we were not thinking about until really like January. And so I haven't talked
• 8:20
  about this anywhere, really just going to share my thoughts with you in real time and like kind of
• 8:25
  of give you a little preview as to what we're working on right now, you know, within the
• 8:30
  company, but it's like, how do we constrain or contain these AI models so that you can
• 8:40
  use them to their full capabilities, uh, but that they ultimately answer to a human authority,
• 8:48
  right? Like it comes to you for any crucial type of approval. So maybe, you know, if you wanted to,
• 8:58
  let's say you were like investing in a portfolio company, right? Or, or you're paying, if you're
• 9:02
  paying or, you know, if you're doing a new investment, you're sending a million dollar
• 9:06
  wire transfer or even better example, Bitcoin transfer, right? You want to approve that.
• 9:12
  You want to know exactly what you're reviewing and approving.
• 9:16
  But if you're just paying an invoice, you know, for the podcast to a vendor and it's a vendor that you've paid before and it's an invoice amount, that's roughly the same amount.
• 9:26
  And it's 30 days from your last invoice.
• 9:29
  You probably want the AI to be able to just pay that for you.
• 9:31
  And so I think right now what where we see the opportunity and we also see like the biggest challenge is that like with how everyone's using AI today is that the place where it's asking you to approve things is the computer or device that the AI is running on itself.
• 9:51
  So you're like doing all the approvals inside the blast radius of the device or devices that the AI is either running on or has access to.
• 10:02
  And that's crazy.
• 10:04
  Like, I don't think that that's going to work at all long term.
• 10:07
  And we're already seeing, you know, you could point to all the crazy stuff happening.
• 10:10
  You could point to like Amazon calling emergency meetings because their employees kept taking down their AWS environments or, you know, all the stories on X people deleting all their emails.
• 10:20
  It may have happened in the last 12 hours with Coinbase.
• 10:22
  That's what they're blaming it on.
• 10:23
  Yeah.
• 10:24
  I mean, they said it was an AWS outage, right?
• 10:26
  But they also said that, what was it?
• 10:29
  Product managers pushed the prod.
• 10:32
  Yeah, exactly.
• 10:34
  And so I feel like we as humans, like we're building this extremely powerful technology that in some instances is more powerful than ourselves.
• 10:47
  and I don't see anyone working on ways to contain it.
• 10:54
  Like I don't see anyone working on,
• 10:56
  like the containment is about politely asking the model
• 11:00
  to please follow the instructions.
• 11:02
  You know, please listen to me
• 11:04
  and we're going to do all this training.
• 11:06
  We're going to put all these kind of guardrails in,
• 11:09
  but it ultimately comes down to please listen to me.
• 11:11
  And what we want to do is like force it
• 11:13
  to listen to the humans and force it to deliver approvals, right? Or, or, or requests to approve
• 11:24
  certain actions to the human where we can like review and approve them. And it starts to look a
• 11:30
  lot like the same process that you would do to review. I mean, different technology under the
• 11:35
  hood, but the same kind of user experience process of like, let me review and approve
• 11:40
  this Bitcoin transaction on trusted hardware. Yeah. And that's the, uh, again, I've, I've said
• 11:47
  this many times and the listeners may be tired, but I will continue to beat the drum. It's equally
• 11:52
  unnerving and exhilarating, unnerving because of everything you just described, but exhilarating
• 11:58
  because it's, it's somewhat of a, a still a blank canvas. And there's so much to be done
• 12:03
  in terms of creating these user flows that, that give you the confidence that you're not
• 12:09
  borking your system or doing something that is going to be detrimental, not only to your business,
• 12:14
  but to your customers as well. And that is, we're just like in that weird amorphous period where the
• 12:20
  models are still progressing. Cause that's a, that's a hard thing, right? Cause this thing,
• 12:24
  these things are still progressing at a pace that is extremely hard to keep up with. And so you're
• 12:30
  just trying to keep up with that pace, but at the same time, you're trying to build the guardrails
• 12:35
  in parallel and I feel like every three weeks or three months I'll build a system and become
• 12:41
  not depend not become comfortable with it and then something is released it's like okay I gotta
• 12:46
  rip this out and put this in how does it affect everything else I've built in the context and
• 12:50
  conditional approvals that that I thought I had before it's just it's uh discombobulating to to
• 12:59
  a certain degree. Yeah. And I, I think that we, I don't think the message should be like
• 13:08
  handicap yourself in the search for privacy and security. I don't think, I don't think that's
• 13:14
  the message. And I think right now, um, if we're using AI, we're faced with like a choice.
• 13:22
  And when it comes to privacy, I think there's good options. You know, like you can, you can use
• 13:28
  AI services or providers, or you can even do local models. I mean, it's hard to get,
• 13:34
  it's expensive at least to get the, you know, whether it's a Mac studio with a ton of RAM or
• 13:39
  the NVIDIA hardware, the framework desktop, right? There's, there's local models are pretty good.
• 13:44
  Or you can use one of these in TEE style, right? Type things, or you can use, I think there's like
• 13:50
  Venice, right? Where it can, gives you some privacy as well. But you still have that huge
• 13:56
  trade-off with security. You have the big trade-off of, like, I want to go and if I'm going to use
• 14:02
  these tools, you want to give it as much context as possible. You want to connect it to everything.
• 14:07
  I've been kind of building a company knowledge base internally where we ingest all the data
• 14:16
  from all the different company tools that we use so that we can reference decisions on the fly,
• 14:22
  We can look anything up. We can give the AI models that kind of context.
• 14:28
  But the challenge is, is that once as it stands right now, like when you give Claude or Codex or whatever tool you're using, you give it the credentials for those tools, whether it's MCP or CLIs or whatever it might be.
• 14:42
  It now has full access.
• 14:43
  and any permissions it's asking you is just politely asking you permission for something
• 14:52
  that it already has the capability of doing, right? So when you actually connect it, like if
• 14:57
  you connect Claude to Gmail, right, it has full capabilities to read and send all your emails,
• 15:05
  everything. And then you could go into the Claude app and you can choose the settings of,
• 15:11
  you know, let me mark this as needs permission. Mark, this says, you know, you don't need
• 15:17
  permission. You're allowed to just go take action, but that's all cloud side. So the entire AI space
• 15:22
  right now, like every kind of permission approval, like the entire approval layer is all fake.
• 15:30
  Like it's, it's, it's all fake. It's, it's just trying to make us as the users feel comfortable
• 15:35
  that it's coming to us to ask for permissions.
• 15:39
  But if it's asking for permissions for something
• 15:41
  that it already has the capability to do,
• 15:44
  like that's a huge problem.
• 15:46
  And this is going to be a problem that has to be solved
• 15:49
  over the next couple of years.
• 15:51
  Otherwise, I think it is going to significantly hinder adoption
• 15:55
  because it's going to be a total shit show
• 15:56
  as more and more things break.
• 15:59
  And so how do you think we solve that?
• 16:02
  Does the key cryptography come into it?
• 16:04
  Because you can imagine a world where it's like, hey, I need permission to do this, and I actually can't do it unless you sign a message that allows me to broadcast the, for using Bitcoin analogies here, not only broadcast the transaction, but broadcast the command to go do a certain thing on Gmail or something like that.
• 16:22
  Yeah, so I think it's a longer journey, and I actually think it's something about trying to distill it as much as possible.
• 16:30
  So we almost need to reinvent the whole idea of what a personal computer is.
• 16:36
  Because if you think about it, like right now, you have Mac, Windows, Linux.
• 16:43
  You have iOS and Android.
• 16:45
  And that's basically it.
• 16:47
  You have these five different computing platforms.
• 16:51
  And at least on the Mac side, it's like the same code roughly for Mac OS versus iOS.
• 16:57
  So, I mean, there's a lot of nuances, but it kind of comes back down, right, to the same code base.
• 17:03
  And then that all comes back down to like Unix type operating systems from, we'll be talking like 30 years ago, 30 plus years ago.
• 17:13
  And then you look at like Linux, for example, within the Linux kernel, there's like over 30 million lines of code.
• 17:22
  And so when we're dropping these AIs into these monolithic operating systems that are kind of built on on top of the previous code over decades, we're dropping them into one, an environment that just has huge attack surfaces.
• 17:39
  So I think that's like one thing to know.
• 17:41
  And attack surface is like a thing that a term that Bitcoiners know, right?
• 17:44
  Because that's how Bitcoiners evaluate oftentimes hardware wallets.
• 17:48
  They'll say, like, I want to use a Bitcoin only hardware wallet.
• 17:50
  I want to use something with a lower attack surface with the smallest amount of code possible on the hardware wallet or on the device.
• 17:59
  And so we're running these AIs, like the models, the applications, the harnesses, the agents.
• 18:05
  It's running on these very old school operating systems that everything else runs on.
• 18:10
  And the attack surfaces are enormous.
• 18:12
  So I think that's one problem.
• 18:14
  But the other big problem is that the OS has no way to distinguish between a human user and an AI agent.
• 18:22
  So like you have your screen, right?
• 18:24
  You have your mouse, you have your keyboard.
• 18:28
  And I mean, that model of like the desktop and the files like that goes all the way back to what is it like?
• 18:34
  Like Xerox Park with Apple.
• 18:38
  And I don't know who took what first, right?
• 18:40
  But where they saw the mouse and they have like the desktop.
• 18:43
  and then obviously Windows.
• 18:45
  So like the operating systems that we're using
• 18:48
  to run all these AI agents and tools,
• 18:51
  they don't know if it's a human user or an AI user.
• 18:55
  So like the way that Claude and now Codex
• 18:57
  are doing computer use
• 18:59
  is that they're just taking control
• 19:02
  of the mouse and the keyboard.
• 19:03
  And now Codex can take control of the mouse
• 19:05
  and the keyboard on like a Mac,
• 19:07
  even when the window is not on the foreground.
• 19:09
  So it can just go do all that stuff
• 19:11
  Or like you're giving it full control over a Chrome browser or something, and it's just taking control.
• 19:18
  And so I think that the right answer is to rebuild all this stuff from scratch.
• 19:25
  Yeah.
• 19:25
  Well, I mean, yeah.
• 19:27
  Multiple comments are like, so I, in January, I think that's when they released co-work, Claude did.
• 19:34
  And I used it and I saw it like using my computer.
• 19:36
  and i was like after an hour i was like all right remove permissions to do anything that scared me
• 19:41
  and then luckily yeah i saw claude bot blowing up i was like okay i'll put i'll put uh i'll put my uh
• 19:49
  clawed in the cloud and give it its own server i'm not gonna give it access to my machine i'll give
• 19:53
  it its own machine and feel much more comfortable that way to that point like once you understand
• 19:59
  you can see that these things are using your computer and your computer is none the wiser
• 20:03
  is them using it and it has access to all the stuff it's incredibly scary and then to your point
• 20:08
  that we have to redesign this i think i completely agree and i think i'm actually a layer above you
• 20:15
  and i've been talking about a layer above you um for months now and i'm really interested to dive
• 20:20
  down to the protocol level stuff because it's something i'm more ignorant about but one thing
• 20:24
  that's become clear to me is like the form factor of how we interact with the internet is changing
• 20:29
  right before our eyes like i'm pure voice to text now voice to voice with my ai systems and it's like
• 20:36
  if i i get frustrated if i have to type now or if i have to point and click i like to hit the only
• 20:42
  typing i like to do is like option spacebar begin talking to super whisper uh and it become clear to me that like UIs as we know them particularly within browsers are going to be rendered unnecessary
• 20:55
  You can project any UI that you want or that you need,
• 21:00
  something that's specific to you using these tools in the future.
• 21:04
  And so like on that layer, on like the UI app layer,
• 21:07
  like I think we're just going to go to a world that's like purely API,
• 21:12
  agent to agent talking, pulling information, distilling information,
• 21:16
  presenting information to you. But when it comes to the protocol layer stuff, I'm completely
• 21:20
  ignorant. Like how do you even rebuild that?
• 21:23
  Yeah. So I think, well, firstly, we started to do it
• 21:28
  without realizing, which is
• 21:30
  pretty interesting. So with our new
• 21:35
  device, Passport Prime, which is like our third generation,
• 21:39
  You know, we don't even call it a hardware wallet.
• 21:41
  We're actually not sure still what to call it.
• 21:43
  Like we've used different terms like personal security platform, personal security device.
• 21:51
  So we're still, I think, working on like how to properly define it.
• 21:55
  But we kicked this off in 2022.
• 21:59
  We kicked this project off at the end of 2022.
• 22:01
  So we raised like a seed round for foundation in the summer of 2022.
• 22:06
  and we're fully closed up with everything by winter, early winter.
• 22:13
  And then we just started working on this new operating system
• 22:16
  and we call it KOS.
• 22:20
  And before we started working on the new operating system,
• 22:24
  my co-founder and I, Ken, who's our CTO,
• 22:28
  have been dreaming about like a next-gen operating system
• 22:33
  since we started the company in 2020.
• 22:35
  Like we were having conversations about, oh, what if we could do a phone?
• 22:39
  You know, what if we could do like all these computer devices?
• 22:41
  And it was my first time as a first time startup founder.
• 22:45
  Right.
• 22:46
  And so I think you can get a little carried away months into starting the company.
• 22:51
  And we're like, oh, yeah, we could do a phone.
• 22:52
  We could do all this stuff.
• 22:53
  I don't think we really knew how hard it is to like build hardware.
• 22:57
  Right.
• 22:58
  And ship hardware and and scale that up.
• 23:00
  Uh, and so we were very like wide eyed and bushy tailed and, and just doing a lot of brainstorming and, you know, talking about like, well, what could we make? And what we basically settled on as our dream operating system was not a monolithic kernel, like, like Linux that I mentioned, which is like 30 million lines of code.
• 23:21
  and like everything is part of the kernel, like every driver that's supported is in there.
• 23:25
  Like literally everything is in there.
• 23:27
  It's crazy.
• 23:28
  Is the idea of this, something called a microkernel.
• 23:31
  And so I would argue that not only is the microkernel architecture, I mean, the right
• 23:37
  approach for what we did.
• 23:38
  And I can talk about like Passport Prime and KOS and like why we did a microkernel.
• 23:43
  Um, but about a, about a month ago, I sat down and I asked all the different AI models, you know, if you could build your dream operating system that would allow you to like work unobstructed, but kind of keep you contained, right.
• 24:01
  Where you don't have direct access to all the keys or the creds.
• 24:06
  You have to go ask for approval for important actions.
• 24:09
  Like, what would you build?
• 24:10
  And they all gave us the same answer, which was a microkernel operating system and described something very similar to what we had built over the last three plus years for Passport Prime.
• 24:24
  And that was like an oh shit moment for us because we built it like specifically for Bitcoin and for securing things that are important to Bitcoiners.
• 24:35
  We say secure your entire digital life.
• 24:38
  So like Bitcoin, of course, two FA codes, like six digit codes, security keys, you know, kind of like YubiKey style security keys, files.
• 24:48
  We have, you know, like almost like a hardware encrypted flash drive.
• 24:53
  other seeds that you use for other apps.
• 24:56
  So like all this important stuff being stored on the device.
• 25:00
  But the reason why we want to do a microkernel,
• 25:02
  which is basically like this tiny core of the operating system
• 25:10
  that has a very small attack surface.
• 25:14
  And then where everything else is an app in the operating system.
• 25:20
  So like everything.
• 25:21
  It's like a driver, which, which, you know, allows us to, you know, connect to a certain peripheral, like a screen, right?
• 25:30
  Or, you know, any kind of anything you have on the circuit board or something you might plug into the device.
• 25:36
  Like those drivers are in user space.
• 25:38
  Those are apps.
• 25:39
  They're not even in the kernel.
• 25:41
  So the kernel for KOS is less than 9,000 lines of code right now.
• 25:45
  so it's like yeah it's like order of magnet like orders of magnitude i don't even know how many
• 25:51
  that is like you know four or five something like that yeah and and we're not the first ones
• 25:58
  there are other micro kernels that are out there there's like one called scl4 which is a little bit
• 26:02
  more academic it's like a formally verified micro kernel but no one is shipping these in consumer
• 26:08
  hardware right now because it's really hard to do a new operating system and so we started to do this
• 26:13
  new operating system in 2022 because we wanted to build something that would allow you to secure
• 26:20
  your entire digital life and importantly install apps on it to customize what you want to do with
• 26:27
  it and enable developers to build apps for it but each app like needs to be in its own sandbox
• 26:34
  and can't talk to other apps otherwise that would compromise the security model of the entire device
• 26:40
  And so we want to build like the open app ecosystem to be able to keep things on like offline secure hardware, whether it's Bitcoin or all this other stuff.
• 26:50
  And so we started building this LS in end of 2022.
• 26:53
  And so I.
• 26:55
  I this was like before we even knew what AI was.
• 26:58
  And I think that this microkernel primitive is really powerful.
• 27:02
  and we can start to use that over time to like to contain the AI as well.
• 27:12
  But I'm happy to, you know, dive more into all like the actual like tech and stuff behind it,
• 27:17
  because like you said, most people, I think, are focused on the upper layers, right?
• 27:21
  Like the user experience or like you said, like the UIs, like that's going to dramatically change,
• 27:26
  like kind of beaming UIs or the AI kind of making you a UI in real time.
• 27:34
  Everything's going to be like, like you said, API based.
• 27:36
  I completely agree with all that as well.
• 27:38
  But it's kind of interesting because like this was also kind of similar to how when I came on in 2020,
• 27:45
  it was all about, you know, open source hardware being the foundation of this Bitcoin powered.
• 27:52
  I think we use the term like decentralized internet back then.
• 27:55
  and I think our heads have always been very much on like that that base layer right like like where
• 28:04
  the software meets the hardware stack and for us it's expanded beyond like the hardware stack itself
• 28:10
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• 30:17
  And I guess let's dive into it, because again, trying to...
• 30:20
  Because that's going to be the hardest problem, right?
• 30:22
  Because you mentioned Mac OS, iOS, Windows, Linux.
• 30:30
  This stuff's been around for decades.
• 30:33
  The whole, for lack of a better term,
• 30:37
  I think the whole digital economy has been built on these systems
• 30:40
  in one way or another.
• 30:41
  and the thought of transitioning away from that,
• 30:47
  like the switching cost and the user experience
• 30:50
  and how do you actually approach it from a technical level?
• 30:54
  Because the way you're describing it seems like,
• 30:57
  okay, we built these systems.
• 30:59
  Obviously, inarguably, they've been incredible for humanity,
• 31:02
  but in a world in which robots are emerging, becoming smart,
• 31:07
  and we are co-mingling with them in the digital world,
• 31:10
  they are insufficiently secure hopefully just in the digital world right on the robots the physical
• 31:17
  robots are coming too yeah um so yeah kind of how do you begin to take bites of this apple and like
• 31:23
  you said microkernel seems like a good thing but um the modularity and making sure that everything
• 31:29
  is siphoned off from each other can't communicate and how how hard is that and how
• 31:36
  what is the possibility of actually successfully doing that and maybe it's ultimately 100 because
• 31:45
  it's 100 necessary and whether people realize it now or later um is is the big question
• 31:53
  is we can learn it now and rebuild now or we can learn the hard lessons of letting these things run
• 32:01
  wild on the operating systems that exist today and learning the hard lessons down the line
• 32:05
  Well, I think the most important thing is to build something opinionated with a specific product that already works.
• 32:16
  And this has been the thing that's plagued the operating system world over the last, I mean, you could probably say decades.
• 32:25
  Because if you go and you start looking on Wikipedia or searching, ask your AI, how many operating systems are there?
• 32:31
  I mean, there's dozens of stuff that's been made.
• 32:34
  And there's also microkernel stuff that's been made.
• 32:37
  And there's some really cool projects that we took inspiration from back when we started building KOS in the end of 2022.
• 32:44
  Like one of them is, did you ever have Bunny on the pod, I think, at one point to talk about his precursor Be Trusted project?
• 32:54
  Seb?
• 32:56
  No.
• 32:57
  Seb Bunny?
• 32:58
  No, no.
• 32:59
  He's like a hardware hacker guy.
• 33:00
  He did a few Bitcoin pods like years ago.
• 33:04
  Um, but anyway, he, he's like famous in the hardware hacking world and he has a, uh, a project that he was, he was kind of showing off to Bitcoiners probably in like the, I don't know if it was 2021 or something like that.
• 33:18
  Uh, but he was working on this microkernel operating system called Zeus as part of this, like, it looks like an old school, like BlackBerry type thing, his device that he was working on.
• 33:28
  And that was like a hardware, like crowdfunded open source hardware project.
• 33:36
  And then there's also, I think Jeremy Soller, who was also doing some of the Bitcoin podcasts back in the day, talking about his operating system called Redox.
• 33:47
  He's the lead engineer at System76, which is also a Rust microkernel operating system.
• 33:53
  So those are two. And there's a bunch of others that have happened over the years that never get shipped on anything. And I think the reason is because they're more like academic or like passionate open source projects. But they're putting that like they're putting out that code and it's going into a GitHub repo somewhere. And it has a lot of potential, but it's like never getting shipped on real devices.
• 34:18
  And so we listened to those podcasts and as they were kind of approaching the Bitcoin community back in the day, and we got really excited about it.
• 34:32
  And we actually started building on originally on this Zeus microkernel core, which was like an open source GitHub project.
• 34:43
  And we've, over the last three years, diverged significantly from like that open source project to the point where it's like a basically like a completely different, you know, project.
• 34:56
  It's specifically designed to run on like the Passport Prime hardware as well.
• 35:01
  We ported it from like RISC-V to ARM so that it can run on actual like security chips that we could buy and everything.
• 35:07
  But I think like the first my first like long winded answer to that is that if you're trying to do this, you can't just like make a cool OS concept and like post it on GitHub and say, I have this awesome operating system concept.
• 35:22
  It has a lot of potential.
• 35:24
  It could be used for it because that's just like step zero.
• 35:27
  Right.
• 35:27
  Like the hard part is actually getting it onto like a device that you can ship to customers like that, that people actually buy and that, that is, can be used.
• 35:38
  And then when you're doing an operating system from scratch or mostly from scratch, you have to build support for like every single chip and every single peripheral in the hardware.
• 35:51
  And that takes a long time to do, especially if you're a small team, or at least it did.
• 35:54
  And I don't know now with AI, maybe it could be a lot faster.
• 35:57
  But so that's that's like how I would first answer your question, right, where it's like it can't be an academic project.
• 36:04
  It can't be like an open source hacker, like interesting project.
• 36:10
  It has to be something that you actually get out to the world and that you ship.
• 36:15
  Right. Because unless you ship it, no one's building anything for it.
• 36:19
  Like it's it's it's a it's a hardcore hobbyist type thing.
• 36:24
  And I think that's been the big problem, in my opinion, with all these interesting operating system concepts over the last few years, then also like over the past decades, which is a lot of really cool concepts, like a lot of amazing stuff that we can draw from.
• 36:38
  But like if it's not shipping in a real device that people can buy and use and developers can like build apps or stuff for, then it's just not going to get anywhere.
• 36:49
  so trojan horsing it into the world via a bitcoin security device is is a way to do this
• 36:56
  is it still trojan horsing if we didn't really plan it at the time because like we weren't
• 37:01
  thinking about this at all you know we were so i'll tell you exactly what we were thinking about
• 37:05
  so you know um we were but we did two generations of passport that you know air gapped uh looked
• 37:13
  like the cell phone, you know, little cell phone, dumb phone form factor.
• 37:20
  And, I mean, we had, you know, really great customer feedback in the space.
• 37:27
  We were, I mean, you know, like we had a reputation for not only just the open source
• 37:32
  and like assembled in the USA, but doing something that had like the hardcore security,
• 37:37
  but then also was more approachable.
• 37:39
  was like kind of, uh, and it was like kind of an alien where it meets virtue, you know,
• 37:43
  design language and everything. And I'm, I'm really proud of everything we did. Um, but
• 37:49
  like store securing your Bitcoin for us was only like the first part of a very long journey
• 37:57
  to secure your entire digital life. So we have Bitcoin Q and a on the team. It was,
• 38:03
  who's been for years.
• 38:06
  He's been with us since like 2021
• 38:08
  when we were just a few people.
• 38:11
  He was known for putting out
• 38:12
  all these amazing guides
• 38:13
  and tutorials over the years.
• 38:14
  He's our head of customer experience.
• 38:17
  And so like you set up your passport,
• 38:19
  hardware wallet or hardware wallet
• 38:20
  from another company.
• 38:21
  But then as you go down
• 38:23
  this Bitcoin rabbit hole,
• 38:24
  you start to care about
• 38:25
  securing everything, right?
• 38:27
  You need to keep your online accounts secure.
• 38:30
  You have your multi-factor authentication.
• 38:32
  you want to start self-hosting stuff.
• 38:35
  You kind of go down this entire rabbit hole as you get orange-pilled.
• 38:40
  And it's kind of stealing your name a little bit with rabbit hole.
• 38:46
  And we want to make something that we can use,
• 38:51
  that someone can buy and use as a one-stop shop
• 38:56
  to level up their entire security, right?
• 38:59
  Not just the Bitcoin.
• 39:00
  And what was really important to us as well was enabling developers to build apps.
• 39:07
  And like, this is, this is key because what we realized was that we cannot build everything at foundation.
• 39:15
  So examples, let's say Bitcoin examples.
• 39:19
  There's those guys doing frost snap.
• 39:21
  That's a cool project.
• 39:23
  You know, it's like this like hardware device and like they all do frost and they they USB into each other like a giant like an opinion.
• 39:31
  Yes, I was going to ask how you describe it.
• 39:33
  I was going to say it's like like like towing a bunch of, you know, cars or something.
• 39:37
  We were attached. It's like a train car, but centipede I like as well.
• 39:43
  Those guys.
• 39:46
  Probably I don't want to speak for them, but there's a lot of interesting stuff like that.
• 39:51
  And, you know, many script frost, there's arc stuff right now with these L2s.
• 39:56
  There's light and obviously lightning stuff.
• 39:59
  Most of this new stuff does not have good hardware wallet support.
• 40:05
  And that's because hardware wallet teams are relatively small and you have to decide what you're going to add, right?
• 40:14
  You're going to have you have to decide what you're going to devote your team's resources to adding first party support for.
• 40:20
  Another great example is I don't think there's still a great like Noster key management type device or something that would keep those keys offline, but be convenient enough where you're not where it can like, you know, sign any of your any of your posts or messages or whatever, but but keeping the keys out front.
• 40:41
  So our thesis back in the end of 2022 was if we build more of a platform type device and then we open it up to developers, that we can get a huge number of interesting applications that are very useful built for the device.
• 40:59
  so that we get to focus on maintaining the operating system and the SDK,
• 41:06
  the software development kit and the app platform and building the best hardware,
• 41:11
  but that we give users the ability to customize their exact device experience.
• 41:17
  I mean, I'm not saying anything new.
• 41:20
  Apple did this, of course.
• 41:21
  It's like the iPhone playbook.
• 41:23
  But one of our main theories was that the space is being held back
• 41:28
  by the fact that developers can't build apps really for hardware wallets.
• 41:33
  And then the only hardware wallet company that has some like quasi version of this right where developers can build apps is 90 of the market you know ledger And I have so much criticism about how they do it
• 41:49
  And we can get into that as well and how like we're kind of the polar opposite from like an openness and architecture perspective.
• 41:56
  But I mean, it's very telling, I think, that you have a company where most of the users, I think, are dissatisfied.
• 42:02
  Most ledger users are not really happy users if you check X and Reddit and you just anecdotally.
• 42:11
  But they're 90% of the market because I think because they were the only ones to offer some kind of developer platform.
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• 44:20
  Yeah, let's lean into that because I think completely cosign it is.
• 44:27
  I think we all know the sort of relative security tradeoffs that Ledger has made.
• 44:35
  But to their credit and to your point, like 90% of the market,
• 44:39
  like their most popular hardware wallet by a long margin.
• 44:44
  And I think it's because of.
• 44:47
  And it's funny because like the device, at least the original device,
• 44:50
  the UX was terrible
• 44:51
  physically like having like you have that small
• 44:54
  screen and like three buttons and it's like
• 44:56
  okay what am I doing here
• 44:57
  and
• 44:59
  I guess
• 45:02
  it's because they have this open
• 45:04
  app architecture obviously like MetaMask
• 45:06
  and many of Phantom
• 45:08
  and many others have tapped into that
• 45:10
  and it has been lacking
• 45:12
  in the Bitcoin space and I think
• 45:13
  to your point I mean the hardcore security
• 45:16
  conscious Bitcoiners
• 45:18
  and builders in the space, they deem it a trade-off that they cannot stomach.
• 45:25
  I think that's the point that you're trying to get at with KOS.
• 45:30
  We probably need this from a UX perspective if we really want to scale this
• 45:36
  beyond just this cottage industry of hardcore security freaks,
• 45:43
  which is not a bad thing.
• 45:46
  I love the cottage industry.
• 45:47
  I love the hardware wallet options that that cater to people who really care about security.
• 45:56
  But if we're thinking making an impactful change and getting people to hold, getting more people to hold their keys is a very virtuous and I would argue imperative goal to have as an industry.
• 46:12
  I think your point, we're going to need to make a system that gives that device more extendability like Ledger has into the digital world.
• 46:24
  Yes, so absolutely, fully agree with you.
• 46:27
  And I don't think at the time, especially when we started the company, I fully understood why Ledger was so successful.
• 46:33
  Um, I know I came on in 2020 and one of the things we talked about was a lot of like the,
• 46:41
  the pros and cons between all the different hardware wallets.
• 46:45
  And before we even started the company, I was, I was thrilled to have, I think you
• 46:50
  included like a long Twitter thread for me in your newsletter once about like an honest
• 46:56
  trade-off list between all the different hardware wallets, right?
• 47:00
  about this one's open source, you know, this one's closed source.
• 47:04
  This one has this kind of user experience.
• 47:06
  This one is manufactured in this place, right?
• 47:08
  Like kind of like a breaking down the industry.
• 47:10
  Cause I thought like I really understood it back then.
• 47:13
  And I think I understood it from a like tech specs point of view and UX point of view,
• 47:19
  but I don't think I really understood it from like a, like a, a platform point of view.
• 47:26
  And that I think whoever builds the best platform is who wins.
• 47:31
  And I think Ledger has done a pretty masterful job so far about building the only platform in the space.
• 47:39
  Now, I have tons of criticisms about the platform.
• 47:42
  It's walled garden.
• 47:44
  They review all apps that are submitted.
• 47:46
  Apps are predominantly new coins.
• 47:50
  You don't see like a like a Casa app for Ledger, right?
• 47:54
  You see a Bitcoin app.
• 47:56
  Uh, you don't see like the arc guys building an arc app for ledger. You see an eighth app
• 48:03
  or a salon app. You don't even see the phantom guys or the Meta mask guys
• 48:07
  building an app for ledger. Instead, what happens is when you're switching between coins,
• 48:13
  you have to close the Bitcoin app and open the salon app. You have to close the salon app
• 48:19
  and open the eighth app. And so, yeah, there's a ton of user experience,
• 48:24
  you know, complaints I have about that. But it's interesting that they've leaned so hard into the
• 48:29
  coins that they've obviously completely lost the plot because the app feels like a casino when you
• 48:35
  open up. I mean, it's probably you open up and you're like flooded with all the different coins
• 48:40
  and you're encouraged to swap between them. And they've said publicly that their software revenue
• 48:46
  from the services equals the hardware revenue, which means that, you know, the whole the whole
• 48:52
  product becomes designed to push you to trade.
• 48:56
  You know, they've been doing marketing recently for the traders, right?
• 48:59
  It's all about trading and swapping because they're making a killing on all those fees
• 49:04
  through the Ledger app.
• 49:06
  But what's really interesting to go deep into the technical reasons why the apps have to
• 49:13
  be reviewed by Ledger, why the operating system cannot be open source, why they've released
• 49:19
  things like open source roadmaps during the Ledger Recover scandal a year or two ago,
• 49:26
  right, where it was like, oh, well, you know, pay us 10 bucks a month and we take your key and we
• 49:30
  split it between three custodians, but we promise we can't see anything. There was a lot of, you
• 49:36
  know, outrage from the space and they released an open source roadmap. But the irony of the open
• 49:42
  source roadmap is that the actual operating system can never be open source. So why is that? Well,
• 49:48
  this comes exactly back to our conversation about legacy operating systems that are built on 30
• 49:56
  plus years of code. What most people don't realize is that Ledger is basically running on a smart
• 50:01
  card operating system. Another term for that is Java card, because a lot of the times in the smart
• 50:08
  card world, and those are like the chips inside your credit cards. Every single credit card has a
• 50:12
  smart card ship uh high-end like company like um door access badges smart card ship they're made
• 50:22
  by a small number of companies nxp uh st microelectronics each one has a proprietary
• 50:29
  smart card operating system and a way for developers to build applets to run on the
• 50:37
  smart card typically in java hence the java card operating system what most people don't know is
• 50:42
  that ledger's first product was a usb drive with no screen back in like 2013 and they had and they
• 50:52
  ended up releasing a companion mobile app for it like to kind of extend like kind of give it like a
• 50:57
  fake screen on the mobile app before they launched the anos that had the screen and then kind of the
• 51:02
  rest was history it's made by stm st microelectronics their main ship it's a smart card
• 51:08
  chip. And what they've done is they've built this operating system to run on the smart card.
• 51:14
  This is like 30 year old legacy tech. It's very slow. It doesn't have the power to do things like
• 51:22
  drive a modern screen. Like it can't, like the smart card chip can't drive like a three inch
• 51:28
  nice LCD screen or something, which is why they always had those tiny screens on the device.
• 51:33
  and when you're working with smart cards you have to load an app and then unload an app and so when
• 51:42
  if you understand like the smart card technology which is 100 closed source super proprietary
• 51:47
  maintained by these different chip companies each has their own you know kind of smart card os
• 51:53
  version that's a little separate from the other ones and you know that ledger works very closely
• 51:57
  with st microelectronics ledger is like that perfect example of building on like a 30 year
• 52:02
  old technology. And that's why it's so limited. That's why developers can't build robust apps.
• 52:08
  That's why you have to open and close apps. And that's actually my theory as to why they had to
• 52:13
  use e-ink screens. And to their credit, they leaned into it, right? Tony Fidel, creator of the iPod
• 52:19
  and Nest coming in, beautiful, my beautiful industrial design, e-ink, long battery life.
• 52:26
  But I think the real reason behind the curtain that no one said why they have to use e-ink is because it's the only thing that the smart card ship can power because it's so low res.
• 52:39
  It's just text on a, you know, on a it's literally just text on like a screen that doesn't need to be constantly powered.
• 52:46
  So they had a breakthrough where they realized, I think, and this is not documented anywhere.
• 52:50
  This is my opinion.
• 52:51
  But I think they realized that they can do a bigger screen, but it has to be ink.
• 52:55
  And then they leaned into it. So in the end of 2022, we were sitting around saying, like, if we could build a new operating system that allowed developers to write apps without foundation having to review the code where they can be sandboxed in a modern kind of next gen operating system, then maybe we can like LeapFrog Ledger.
• 53:21
  We can build that open architecture to finally give them competition from the platform side of things.
• 53:31
  How do you sandbox successfully?
• 53:34
  How do you approach that design?
• 53:37
  Again, protocol development, no enough to be dangerous, but not nearly enough to actually be competent, fully competent.
• 53:46
  And that's, that's my question.
• 53:49
  Like how do you isolate and sandbox everything?
• 53:52
  Sure.
• 53:52
  Um, and, and one interesting thing is that like ledger does not.
• 53:57
  So the way that ledger does it is they, they only have one app running at a time and that's
• 54:02
  how the smart cards do it.
• 54:04
  And so each app actually accesses the master key on your ledger, like the seed words.
• 54:12
  no no but that that's why they have to review apps and and and because if you had a malicious
• 54:20
  app it would theoretically be able to you know kind of pull off the the seed words and maybe
• 54:26
  somehow you know you've had people on the pod before talking about how you can like
• 54:31
  you know kind of uh exfiltrate the seed words you know there's ways to do it so that's why ledger
• 54:37
  has to review each app and we've also heard um anecdotally that you have to pay ledger to do an
• 54:41
  app so that they can review it. So how we do it on KOS, which is this microkernel operating system,
• 54:50
  there's a couple of different characteristics. One is, is that the, it's called a message passing
• 54:55
  microkernel and it's all written in Rust. It's, it's pretty cool, which is like a very safe,
• 55:00
  you know, programming language. A lot of like the hardcore Bitcoiners have, especially on the
• 55:03
  research side. Yeah. Switched over to Rust. That's a lot in Bitcoin. Yeah. So this is pure Rust,
• 55:08
  which is very, that's a lot of the Bitcoin devs are like very excited.
• 55:12
  We were giving them out at the conference developer units and everyone's like really,
• 55:16
  really excited about it.
• 55:18
  So firstly, it's all message passing, which means that let's say you have the Bitcoin app
• 55:24
  on the device.
• 55:26
  And let's say the Bitcoin app wants to access the camera so it can scan a QR code.
• 55:32
  The Bitcoin app doesn't just get access to the camera.
• 55:35
  It has to send like a message to the QoS kernel, which then has to relay a message like to the camera app.
• 55:44
  The camera, even though there's drivers and stuff, it's a camera app.
• 55:47
  Like it's its own app as opposed to just being something that the OS just like gives as like a core functionality.
• 55:54
  And so each message is being passed from app to app and it's going through the kernel.
• 55:59
  And the kernel is deciding, does this app have permission to do this?
• 56:05
  And so for our first party apps, they have permission.
• 56:08
  But as third party apps go live in the coming weeks, you'll have to ask permission, you know, to use the camera.
• 56:18
  So from like a UX perspective, it's very similar to what you're already used to on iOS or Android.
• 56:23
  But from like an OS perspective, it's very different because all these apps are like all these functionalities or individual apps behind the scenes, or we even call them like servers on the back end.
• 56:35
  But we don't typically use that term when we're talking to like consumers.
• 56:39
  And it's a message is being passed through the kernel, which is evaluating and deciding if it's allowed to if the app is allowed to do that.
• 56:48
  So that's one thing.
• 56:49
  Two is we're using a security processor that has what's called an MMU, which is like memory management, which is what's used on major processors that you'd find in like Windows, Apple, iPhone, that kind of thing, where memory can be isolated based on the application.
• 57:12
  So we are leveraging that feature of the processor so that like the app is isolated, like the actual memory, like the RAM, right?
• 57:21
  It's like it's only in that space given to that app and not to the other apps.
• 57:27
  The other apps can't see it.
• 57:28
  That's like not novel to us.
• 57:30
  That's something that is common in modern operating systems.
• 57:34
  But where it is novel is I don't think there's any hardware wallet type devices that do that.
• 57:39
  They don't you know, there's no there's no such thing as like processes and isolation or anything like that on any of these hardware wallets, including Ledger, because they're designed to just run like one set of firmware.
• 57:52
  and the code is the code. The code is all there, right? The code, you can't load or unload parts
• 57:58
  of it. It's like, and that's why you see Trezor and Bitbox and others doing like Bitcoin only,
• 58:02
  you know, hardware wallet versions. Cause they'll say, okay, well that's the only the code
• 58:07
  for the hardware wallet and Bitcoin is there and all that other crypto stuff is not there.
• 58:13
  And so on KOS, it looks much more like a modern computer in the sense that we're leveraging the
• 58:18
  memory management that the processor offers us. But of course, it's not in like a monolithic 30
• 58:24
  million line, you know, operating system kernel. It's our own, you know, 9000 line microkernel.
• 58:29
  And so we feel very comfortable about how that the safety aspects of that. And then three,
• 58:34
  what's really cool is each app gets its own hardened, derived child seed or key. So unlike
• 58:43
  Ledger where the apps can all just grab the master seed from the OS and then use it with a specific derivation path for that cryptocurrency.
• 58:52
  On KeyOS, if you were building a third party app, your app can never see like the master key, we call it.
• 59:00
  You get a hardened derived key.
• 59:02
  So it's still using a key derived from like the master key, but it can't go backwards to actually see that master key.
• 59:09
  So what you get is you get an app in a sandbox with its own isolated memory.
• 59:15
  It only has its own derived hardened child seed.
• 59:22
  So that can be used for anything that can be used for like Bitcoin or crypto stuff that can be used for to FAA that can be used to derive keys for like signing code.
• 59:31
  Like you could build an app or Noster, right?
• 59:34
  Like once you get a key, you can use that key for any kind of purpose.
• 59:39
  So you have your isolated memory, you have your hardened, derived child seed, and then you have the message passing characteristics of the microkernel where any action you take has to go to the kernel for evaluation and approval.
• 59:55
  So that's how we do it.
• 59:56
  It's very different.
• 59:57
  Like I said, there's some aspects of it that are not unique to us, like just, you know, isolated memory.
• 1:00:04
  But when it comes to like the microkernel, the message passing, the hardened child keys, it's like a unique model for enabling third party apps where they live in their own sandbox.
• 1:00:16
  Well, yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
• 1:00:19
  Is your point about like leapfrogging ledger or the intent and the goal being that you can see, you can begin to see how that's made possible with this, with the modularity of the sandboxing.
• 1:00:30
  And I mean, on that point, obviously, you guys have a robust set of apps that come out of the box with the 2FA, the seed vault file browser, things like that.
• 1:00:42
  But in your mind, like what do you want people to build?
• 1:00:46
  Like what are some apps that you guys are not going to build that you think others should build and maybe entice to build now that they understand that this operating system enables it?
• 1:00:56
  Yeah. So an SDK is already out in like an alpha beta type state. So our CTO did a talk at Opnext a few weeks ago in New York and walked through like how to build apps. And we have like a CLI tool, Foundation CLI. We have a simulator on the computer.
• 1:01:14
  And what's really cool, I don't know if we've talked about it publicly, is that we're going to have with a new firmware release for Passport Prime, a developer mode that you can turn on that gives you an MCP server so that your AI can test the app itself.
• 1:01:28
  It can see everything on the screen on Passport.
• 1:01:31
  It can interact with like the, you know, the entire UI.
• 1:01:34
  So you can go to bed, wake up and be like chugging away, you know, testing your app on the real hardware.
• 1:01:38
  So first, like we spent a lot of time working on the tooling for this, and that'll be, you know, out of beta in a few weeks.
• 1:01:45
  But it is in beta for anyone that wants to like use it, use the simulator.
• 1:01:49
  We can we can send, you know, there's a contact us on our online and we can send you like a developer unit for free as well.
• 1:01:56
  What kind of apps that we want folks to build?
• 1:02:00
  Well, first, I'll talk about a couple of things we vibe coded Q&A and I in the last few weeks.
• 1:02:05
  I think you mentioned one actually on RHR.
• 1:02:08
  that that Q&A vibe coded like a Noster key storage and signing app yep which is awesome
• 1:02:16
  we talked about last week or two weeks ago yeah yeah so that that was I think yeah the week before
• 1:02:20
  the conference so it works it great I can I can attest to the code being reviewed like that not a that not going to come from an official foundation repo yet but that one great example which is you know you can have your Nostra keys on there You can do your signing from there and you can keep those keys off your phone permanently so that you don have to worry about losing those keys
• 1:02:41
  Another one he built was a full featured password manager with a Chrome extension so that it can just inject the passwords directly into your browser.
• 1:02:49
  A lot of the things I'm interested in that category are being able to like fully lock down your computer from the device, maybe even like Mac OS or like login from the device where you have to like tap on passport to like log into your computer.
• 1:03:05
  That's very interesting to me.
• 1:03:07
  Some of the stuff I've coded, but I've not announced is MCP related stuff, storing creds and keys for all your different AI tools like on the hardware.
• 1:03:18
  Oh, this is cool.
• 1:03:19
  This is the Noster one, right?
• 1:03:24
  Sorry, I was muted.
• 1:03:25
  Yeah.
• 1:03:25
  Yeah.
• 1:03:27
  Yeah.
• 1:03:32
  Yeah.
• 1:03:32
  So basically what's happening here, I know not everyone's watching.
• 1:03:35
  Some folks are listening as Marty's showing off Q&A's Noster signer app.
• 1:03:42
  But you can basically create like a Noster key or you can, I think, I don't know if he lets you import it.
• 1:03:48
  You can have more than one, you know, for all everyone who has 10 different NIMS on on Noster.
• 1:03:54
  And I think he has it talking over USB now, but Passport Prime has Bluetooth.
• 1:04:03
  And so basically you'll be able to on the go, right, just be connected directly to your phone and go ahead.
• 1:04:11
  And any kind of Nostra message can be signed from Passport so that you don't have to keep those Nostra keys on your phone.
• 1:04:20
  It's really cool.
• 1:04:24
  And then so I'm really interested in a lot of the AI applications.
• 1:04:27
  Like I did it some for fun a couple of weeks ago where you keep the creds for all your MCP tools and everything on Passport.
• 1:04:36
  And I'm also really interested in all the next-gen Bitcoin stuff.
• 1:04:39
  both things like frost um but then i i want like my big ask for a lot of these bitcoin companies is
• 1:04:46
  is releasing native versions of their app on passport prime so like i used uh casa as an
• 1:04:56
  example right just saying like there's no casa app for ledger but if you were to build a casa app
• 1:05:01
  for Passport Prime, you know, to run on KOS, you could put your logo, you can put your same UI
• 1:05:09
  from the mobile app. You could use your own terminology like health checks. So effectively,
• 1:05:16
  what happens is that instead of having a hardware wallet where you have to like
• 1:05:21
  tell your users how to use the hardware wallet, support all the different functionality,
• 1:05:27
  deal with bugs introduced by the hardware wallet and like all that kind of stuff.
• 1:05:33
  You can just bring your experience onto the device where it feels like a native first party experience.
• 1:05:38
  And so we have a new UI coming out along with our SDK where it's like iPhone style, like a grid of apps.
• 1:05:46
  Right. And so it's very easy for developers to understand that, like, you can make an app.
• 1:05:51
  You can have your app icon on it, the same one that you have on your mobile app.
• 1:05:55
  You can put it right here and then any kind of offline capabilities for secure key storage or signing that you want to give to your users.
• 1:06:03
  You can finally do it and you don't even have to talk to us.
• 1:06:06
  So like you'll be able to release it to our app store if you want to.
• 1:06:10
  And all apps on our app store have to be open source and reproducible because we're building them from your repo.
• 1:06:16
  We're not going to like just trust like the build that you give us.
• 1:06:19
  Like we're going to we're going to build and and release it ourselves onto our app store.
• 1:06:24
  But we're also going to have like robust sideloading capabilities so you can release an app directly to your user base so you don't have to talk to us or interact with us at all.
• 1:06:33
  And I'm really excited about all the security related apps.
• 1:06:37
  We're going to have our own internal app so that we can sign KOS releases from KOS.
• 1:06:43
  We do like two of four signature scheme for our signing.
• 1:06:47
  GitHub, code signing, commits, all that kind of stuff.
• 1:06:52
  just any anything like that passwords right we have our security keys but we haven't done pass
• 1:07:00
  keys yet there's probably an opportunity for like password manager pass key stuff any next gen
• 1:07:06
  bitcoin stuff basically anything where you want to get your important stuff off of your computer
• 1:07:11
  or phone you'll be able to do that you know and get it onto key os with a native app and whether
• 1:07:17
  it's something you vibe code for yourself whether it's something that you you have an existing app
• 1:07:21
  or service or something like that, either on desktop or mobile.
• 1:07:25
  We're basically giving everyone the tools to build these kinds of apps
• 1:07:28
  to run on the Passport Prime hardware.
• 1:07:32
  That's awesome.
• 1:07:34
  Again, going back to the beginning of the conversation,
• 1:07:36
  like building for the AI world, now I'm like running wild.
• 1:07:39
  Like how many API keys have I given my agent access to?
• 1:07:42
  How many credentials is it now?
• 1:07:46
  I mean, limited, like read-only API keys now,
• 1:07:50
  but I would love to give right capabilities as well.
• 1:07:55
  And if there is a way to add the keys stored
• 1:07:58
  on a Passport Prime running KOS
• 1:08:02
  and you can somehow like basically sign access to the key
• 1:08:06
  while it's doing it without having the agent stored
• 1:08:11
  on its own server, it would be massive.
• 1:08:13
  Yeah, and we're working on a couple of ways to do it right now.
• 1:08:16
  Yeah, we're still, it's still in progress.
• 1:08:19
  I don't think I have anything like perfect.
• 1:08:20
  I don't have a perfect solution, but I think directionally based on what we've built internally, I think that's exactly the kind of stuff that you'll be able to do.
• 1:08:28
  Yeah, that's awesome.
• 1:08:30
  It's a brave new world out there.
• 1:08:32
  And how imperative do you think it like?
• 1:08:34
  That's one thing I worry about.
• 1:08:35
  I mean, we talk about it in Bitcoin a lot, like the biggest.
• 1:08:39
  Biggest detriment or the biggest risk to Bitcoin long term is complacency.
• 1:08:43
  I feel like this is equally, if not even more so true in the world of incumbent operating systems and software colliding with this wave of AI that's hitting.
• 1:08:57
  Going back to what I said in the middle of the conversation, do you think this is a problem that's inevitably going to force a solution like you're building with KeyOS?
• 1:09:07
  Or is there a potential that people don't adopt this and we live in this willfully insecure world in perpetuity?
• 1:09:15
  Well, it's funny when you were saying that the first thing, like what I was thinking about was not just us as like individual users where, you know, we have, you know, we want to self-custody Bitcoin.
• 1:09:31
  You want to keep all of our keys and credentials, you know, secure as part of our entire digital lives.
• 1:09:37
  I was actually thinking about like the enterprise custody, too, because like where my mind went to just immediately was how like the history of all these exchange hacks over time.
• 1:09:48
  And.
• 1:09:50
  Like I got into Bitcoin, I think, a few months before the Mt.
• 1:09:54
  Gox hack.
• 1:09:55
  And so everything after that has just been defined by, you know, one after the other year after year exchange hacks.
• 1:10:03
  And probably one of the reasons why, you know, building self-custody tools is because of that.
• 1:10:10
  But right now it's like it's not I actually think as individuals were like less.
• 1:10:16
  We have less to worry about than the enterprises and like the enterprise custody stuff.
• 1:10:22
  That's my big worry, too.
• 1:10:24
  And so I used to think of foundation as just, you know, we're making tools for, for sovereign individuals.
• 1:10:31
  And now I'm thinking about it as well, we've made this tool.
• 1:10:35
  It's been designed to allow like an individual to secure his entire digital life, including Bitcoin.
• 1:10:43
  But there's a huge need and therefore business opportunity for us, but like huge need on the enterprise side, because.
• 1:10:51
  most of the Bitcoin,
• 1:10:54
  is that a true
• 1:10:55
  statistic?
• 1:10:57
  Most of the Bitcoin, I think, is stored with
• 1:10:59
  custodians right now.
• 1:11:03
  At least millions.
• 1:11:06
  I think it's around 50-50 now
• 1:11:07
  at this point. That's good, yeah. So I would just say
• 1:11:09
  there's individual
• 1:11:11
  custodians that are holding millions of Bitcoin.
• 1:11:14
  Yeah.
• 1:11:14
  I think has over 2 million
• 1:11:16
  at this point. Yeah. And MicroStrategy has
• 1:11:18
  diversified to
• 1:11:19
  to encourage infidelity is my understanding.
• 1:11:22
  Maybe others that are, which is, which is good and kind of spreading it out.
• 1:11:26
  But what worries me is, as we just talked about earlier in the conversation,
• 1:11:29
  what are these custodians using to keep everything secure?
• 1:11:34
  And some of them will say like, well, it's offline.
• 1:11:38
  It's on paper.
• 1:11:39
  We have an HSM.
• 1:11:40
  We have this coordination policy.
• 1:11:42
  Don't get me started on HSM though.
• 1:11:43
  Cause like this, that's an HSM is another great example of like built on 30 year old legacy tech.
• 1:11:49
  Like HSM's are closed source, proprietary, old, hard to develop for, have like enterprise sales cycles where they'll maybe send you a sample and then you have to pay them like monthly or annual fees for what?
• 1:12:07
  Like they're not doing anything.
• 1:12:09
  It's just it's just it's exactly in the same category, I would say, as like smart cards, but the opposite, like smart cards being small and cheap and prevalent in all the credit cards.
• 1:12:19
  And HSM is being these like old monolithic proprietary black box things that once again, they're not designed for you to know what you're approving.
• 1:12:29
  Like they're designed for the pre AI era.
• 1:12:31
  Like things just get automatically signed.
• 1:12:34
  There's no human in the loop that's like reviewing what the HSM is signing on some secure device.
• 1:12:41
  And what I've heard anecdotally from some custodians is that they're doing things like building internal iPhone apps.
• 1:12:47
  to approve things.
• 1:12:50
  And this is like exactly kind of our thesis
• 1:12:53
  for why doing an operating system
• 1:12:55
  and hardware like this is interesting
• 1:12:56
  where you can enable apps to be built
• 1:12:58
  because I want them building internal apps
• 1:13:01
  on an open source device
• 1:13:04
  running a next-gen open source operating system,
• 1:13:07
  not on an iPhone.
• 1:13:09
  And then like maybe there's a Linux computer
• 1:13:12
  sitting in like a locked room somewhere
• 1:13:14
  with some armed guards
• 1:13:15
  or maybe there's this HSM
• 1:13:17
  that's completely closed source black box
• 1:13:19
  in like their server rack that has a lock on it
• 1:13:23
  with like a guard outside the room.
• 1:13:24
  And they're saying, don't worry, our million Bitcoin,
• 1:13:27
  they're totally safe.
• 1:13:29
  We have the next gen, you know,
• 1:13:30
  best in class security practices.
• 1:13:32
  And then you start to unpack, like, what are they using?
• 1:13:35
  Do these guys have tools that are not available
• 1:13:38
  to a normal person?
• 1:13:39
  And the answer is no,
• 1:13:40
  because I could go rent a cloud HSM right now on Amazon.
• 1:13:43
  Like I can go get a smart card and make an app for it.
• 1:13:47
  Like I can go get a Linux laptop and put it in a room with a lock on it.
• 1:13:51
  It's all the same thing.
• 1:13:52
  Yet because they're custodians, like we're just trusting that they have their shit together.
• 1:13:57
  But we also know as Bitcoin, long-term Bitcoiners, no one has ever had their shit together over the long term.
• 1:14:06
  Yeah.
• 1:14:06
  And obviously I won't disclose who and at what company, but I heard the iPhone app example earlier this week too.
• 1:14:13
  so this is a problem and it's going to become more of a problem when you look at like ai uh
• 1:14:23
  from a security perspective so you look at like let's not even talk let's not talk about something
• 1:14:27
  hypothetical because like the mythos model is still kind of hypothetical you know there's been
• 1:14:31
  a lot of i just saw like firefox patch the most bugs they ever have this month in this last month
• 1:14:36
  and the assumption is because they had access to cloud mythos but let's look at from uh like march
• 1:14:42
  that dark sword iOS exploit, which most people have forgotten about already, but about a quarter
• 1:14:49
  of all iOS devices were vulnerable to this zero day. And all you had to do was load a website.
• 1:14:56
  You load a website from the browser on your iPhone. And what it did was it broke out of
• 1:15:01
  its like browser container. And it immediately started looking for important stuff on the device.
• 1:15:07
  It looked for crypto wallets. And if so, it would just grab those seeds or keys off of the secure enclave.
• 1:15:15
  It looked it pulled tiny little thumbnails of all the users photos so that I could try to figure out, are there any photos that are worth pulling like the like the full contents of the photo?
• 1:15:30
  And then it went through the whole OS and just tried to pull anything else important from it.
• 1:15:34
  So like if you're using an iPhone for your custody, and even if you're using like a Bitcoin hot wallet, lightning on chain, whatever it might be.
• 1:15:44
  I mean, that's a quarter of all iPhones that were vulnerable because they hadn't updated to like the latest, you know, iOS version.
• 1:15:51
  And Apple pushed out some emergency stuff.
• 1:15:54
  I kind of think that they may have pushed some emergency stuff out to everyone because I woke up with an iPhone update that was installed and I don't have auto install enabled on my iPhone.
• 1:16:04
  So I think they may have pushed something and just like, you know, they announced it, but I wonder if they pushed something else and didn't say anything.
• 1:16:11
  As models like Mythos become prevalent, we may see one of those every couple of weeks.
• 1:16:17
  Because I think the iOS and the macOS kernel, I think, is around 10 million plus lines of code.
• 1:16:24
  And then you also have like the web browser engine, right, sitting on top of that.
• 1:16:28
  And these browsers are just these enormous web, these web engines.
• 1:16:33
  There's only a couple of them and they're, you know, Chromium with Chrome WebKit, which is like power with Safari.
• 1:16:42
  I feel like Firefox announced they were like switching to Chromium or something.
• 1:16:47
  So I think there's like only two maybe that are being actively developed and they're just enormous, just huge.
• 1:16:54
  I mean, they're not black boxes because they're open source.
• 1:16:56
  But the problem is, is that you point a model like this towards the Linux kernel or towards Chromium or something, and you try to have it find these zero days and these vulnerabilities.
• 1:17:06
  And then you can also have it break out of its containers within like iOS and you're in huge trouble.
• 1:17:12
  And so I think that's going to be a constant fact of life over the next couple of years.
• 1:17:19
  And I do think there's going to be a lot of these zero days.
• 1:17:23
  and you know um i think the vp uh you know vance that just came out that he had like an emergency
• 1:17:29
  call with all the different um the ai leaders like a day or two ago talking about how the banking
• 1:17:35
  industry is at risk uh mythos is not publicly available you know they're only allowing it for
• 1:17:41
  certain um certain companies yeah i've got operation glasswing that was yeah the idea
• 1:17:48
  that they're going to somehow find all of the vulnerabilities and and patch them and then
• 1:17:52
  they'll magically be able to roll it out to everyone. So I don't, I'm not like pessimistic,
• 1:17:58
  but I do think that the, the need to find a way to, uh, better secure everything is more important
• 1:18:08
  than ever. And everyone's going to have to figure it out, like not just individuals, but especially,
• 1:18:13
  you know, these enterprises that are storing things like Bitcoin, where if you lose it,
• 1:18:18
  It's gone forever.
• 1:18:21
  Yeah.
• 1:18:22
  Like, yeah, it's a brave new world.
• 1:18:24
  Yeah.
• 1:18:25
  Equally exhilarating and unnerving, but I'm an eternal optimist.
• 1:18:30
  And it's like, okay, yes, recognize that these problems exist and will likely persist for a time.
• 1:18:35
  But the opportunity to fix them, create new operating systems, new experiences, new ways of interacting with our digital lives.
• 1:18:44
  incredible opportunity, both from a user experience perspective and then selfishly
• 1:18:50
  on your part, on my part, like from a profit perspective, it's like, Hey,
• 1:18:56
  we got to re-architect and build new ways of interacting with computers and the internet.
• 1:19:02
  And there's a lot of opportunity and potential in that. Yeah. I'm a, I'm really excited about it
• 1:19:08
  because we were like dreaming about these kinds of stuff in the early days of foundation.
• 1:19:15
  We even have some documents from end of 2020 about like what a next gen operating system could look like, where it can beam UIs from like one device to another device.
• 1:19:27
  But we didn't know what that meant.
• 1:19:29
  We were just having fun, you know, brainstorming and coming up with these cool ideas.
• 1:19:32
  And now you see examples of these generative AIs or the idea that you could have like a server maybe up in your office at home and it's running all your AI stuff locally.
• 1:19:44
  And it's like whether you call it beaming or like whatever you want to call it, it's some combo of streaming UI and generative UI like on your phone or on your computer side.
• 1:19:54
  Like, I love that stuff.
• 1:19:56
  Like that stuff.
• 1:19:57
  I just I'm so excited about all of it.
• 1:19:59
  Will Foundation like build some of that stuff?
• 1:20:01
  I don't know.
• 1:20:02
  Right.
• 1:20:02
  Cause like right now we're very focused on the security aspects and everything
• 1:20:05
  like that. But we made like the hard decision to spend what we thought would
• 1:20:11
  be two years, but that ended up being three years building this operating
• 1:20:15
  system. We almost, it's, it's like we,
• 1:20:19
  we had a very nonlinear approach for the company because we did these two
• 1:20:23
  generations of passport devices, the passport founders edition,
• 1:20:26
  then like the passport, we called a couple of different things, you know,
• 1:20:29
  the gen two, and we ended up calling it passport core.
• 1:20:32
  And you'd think we would have had like a linear progression of just kind of taking that same form factor and like, you know, making it thinner, making it more powerful, more affordable, scaling it up, getting into more hands.
• 1:20:43
  But what we actually ended up doing was it's like, well, we had our alpha product.
• 1:20:46
  We had our beta product.
• 1:20:48
  And then we raised the seed round and we're like, you know, we need to do a whole opera.
• 1:20:51
  We need to do a new operating system.
• 1:20:54
  And then we were still selling that second gen passport.
• 1:20:57
  But we kind of went dark for a couple of years, like R&D.
• 1:21:01
  And now we're coming out with a product that was envisioned before AI was popular, but that I think has the desirable.
• 1:21:14
  It's not perfect.
• 1:21:15
  There's a lot we still have to do to it, but it has the most desirable operating system characteristics for this AI security world as well.
• 1:21:24
  In addition to the Bitcoin security, in addition to the identity related stuff.
• 1:21:30
  And I'm really excited about that, obviously from like a, you know, selfish profit motive.
• 1:21:36
  But then also because there is this is a time where we're going to be able to rip up a lot of stuff and rebuild it because there's going to be this imperative.
• 1:21:47
  Hopefully it's not because bad things are happening and we're like and there's all this chaos on like the cyber side.
• 1:21:54
  Hopefully it's because we think about this stuff in advance and we see the value in them and we start to transition to these new tools and everything.
• 1:22:03
  But I feel like we have something that is shipping that developers are going to be able to build apps for in the coming weeks.
• 1:22:15
  And I'm just really excited to see what everyone builds.
• 1:22:18
  Well, on that note, if there's any, there's millions of developers listening to the show right now, what is your call to action to them to begin getting their hands on the operating system and thinking about building apps on top of it?
• 1:22:33
  Yeah. So one is we just retweeted from the Opnext guys yesterday, a talk that Ken, our CTO, did at Opnext a couple of weeks ago in New York.
• 1:22:45
  If you want to actually like watch a little talk and see how he in real time, like vibe coded an app using the CLI tool and everything like that, you can check that out.
• 1:22:56
  And then there's instructions there to, you can basically start using the SDK in our simulator today if you want on your computer.
• 1:23:05
  You can also shoot us a message on any of these channels, you know, contact form on our site, email, DM us on X.
• 1:23:13
  And if you're a developer, we'll send you a free developer unit so you can get started and check it out and everything like that.
• 1:23:19
  And then I would say by end of the month, our goal is to have like a release of Kios out that supports that developer mode that I mentioned so that you can like flip on MCP and like have it, you know, test, help you the AI test your app for you.
• 1:23:34
  And you'll see like start to see the ability for users to sideload apps or be coming out with our app store, all that kind of stuff.
• 1:23:41
  And so definitely check it out and ask us if you have any questions.
• 1:23:46
  But over the next few weeks, there's going to be a lot of SDK and app related stuff that we're going to be putting out.
• 1:23:53
  Awesome.
• 1:23:53
  Logan, I just sent you the link to the UpNext presentation by Ken.
• 1:23:57
  So make sure you put that in the show notes.
• 1:23:59
  So if you're listening, want to get involved, we'll link to that link to the GitHub, obviously the website.
• 1:24:05
  But I can't believe it took us six years to catch up.
• 1:24:08
  And it was great.
• 1:24:10
  I love the line of thought that you're in right now because I think it's, again, a layer below mine, but a very important layer as it pertains to the intersection of not only Bitcoin, but everything we're doing in AI.
• 1:24:24
  I think these conversations and thinking about these problems, particularly at the layer that you are, is an imperative right now because it's becoming obvious.
• 1:24:35
  Again, going back to my co-work example,
• 1:24:38
  like I saw this thing using my computer.
• 1:24:40
  I was like this is not safe at all Like we need to figure out a new way to interact with these things So I pumped that you guys are working on it Well thank you And I really glad that that you been uh doing a lot of AI related uh podcasts and content and everything because we often forget
• 1:24:58
  that like we as Bitcoiners, we have a unique perspective when it comes to like both our values,
• 1:25:05
  our philosophy, and then everything we've seen in the field over the last decade, plus,
• 1:25:10
  when it comes to not trusting institutions.
• 1:25:14
  And we bring that same mindset to everything, right?
• 1:25:16
  It might be related to custodians, right?
• 1:25:20
  Like I mentioned, exchange hacks, that kind of stuff
• 1:25:22
  might be related to COVID, right?
• 1:25:25
  Or other type of institutional stuff.
• 1:25:26
  And then when it comes to AI, I think that whole industry,
• 1:25:29
  I don't consider us in the AI industry, right?
• 1:25:33
  I consider us still like a,
• 1:25:35
  I don't know what I would actually consider us,
• 1:25:37
  maybe like a Bitcoin or lead company.
• 1:25:40
  Something like that. But like we have a unique perspective and different values than most of the AI industry. And like it's important for us, I think, to talk about that and make that heard, because I think they're barreling right now towards this.
• 1:25:56
  the growth of the industry and the growth of these tools at the expense of the privacy and security.
• 1:26:04
  And that is going to catch up to them. Like that's not a good position to be in for the long term.
• 1:26:09
  It may be a short term high time preference maybe profitable maybe not you know position maybe like user growth position but I don know about profitable but like in the long
• 1:26:21
  it can, it could, I don't want to be like doomerism because I'm as optimistic as you, but like
• 1:26:26
  need some sane voices in the room saying, okay, how can we do this, but do it with privacy? How
• 1:26:31
  can we do this, but do this with security? How can we bring these, these, the way that we approach
• 1:26:36
  security on the Bitcoin side and like bring those same principles to the AI side of things.
• 1:26:42
  And I'm really excited to be able to start working on that.
• 1:26:46
  Well, again, thank you for doing it. And I completely agree. And thank you for
• 1:26:50
  the compliments. It's again, just tickling my own fancy and fascinated by this stuff.
• 1:26:55
  And to your point, like, I do think we have a unique perspective. And it's funny,
• 1:26:58
  the parallels, whether it's from security or even on the energy side, watching all these
• 1:27:03
  data centers get built and having been in Bitcoin mining for almost a decade now, it's like, ah,
• 1:27:07
  I see what you guys are doing. I know where the, uh, where the landmines are for you. And, um,
• 1:27:12
  it's just funny how Bitcoiners seem to be ahead of the curve. And I think it'll take some time,
• 1:27:18
  maybe three to five years, but I think the approach to security in the AI world that many
• 1:27:25
  Bitcoiners are taking will be recognized as like, oh, this is the right way to do things. And so
• 1:27:30
  So I think to that point, you guys are ahead of the curve and keep pushing.
• 1:27:34
  And if you're listening, you're a developer,
• 1:27:37
  and you interested in what we just discussed go check it out Again we link to everything in the show notes and begin building because I think to that point
• 1:27:48
  we have this legacy architecture and infrastructure
• 1:27:52
  that many people are dependent on
• 1:27:54
  and need to begin to transition away from it
• 1:27:57
  slowly but surely.
• 1:27:58
  And if not you, then who to build the apps
• 1:28:02
  that people can actually trust in this world
• 1:28:05
  that we're barreling towards?
• 1:28:07
  Thank you for listening to this episode of TFTC. If you've made it this far, I imagine you got some value out of the episode. If so, please share it far and wide with your friends and family. We're looking to get the word out there. Also, wherever you're listening, whether that's YouTube, Apple, Spotify, make sure you like and subscribe to the show. And if you can leave a rating on the podcasting platforms, that goes a long way.
• 1:28:33
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• 1:28:56
  Thank you for your time.
• 1:28:57
  And until next time.
• 1:28:59
  Okay.
• 1:29:03
  Thank you.