Latest / Beheaded / Ketchum If You Can! | Tom "Black Jack" Ketchum

Transcript

Ketchum If You Can! | Tom "Black Jack" Ketchum · Beheaded

0:03
SPEAKER_02: Hey execution autos, Megan and Elizabeth here.
0:07
SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth's on the phone right now.
0:08
SPEAKER_02: Say hi.
0:09
unknown: Hi there, everybody.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, before we get into this episode, I just first and foremost, I want to apologize for the delays.
0:18
SPEAKER_02: I know we're off of our normal schedule of getting episode 12 out.
0:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, we have been trying to figure out the logistics of some things because this episode was actually recorded a couple weeks ago.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: And since then, there's there have been a lot of changes, right?
0:32
SPEAKER_02: And I know things are getting kind of crazy with coronavirus and um a lot of weird changes, a lot of things we're adjusting to.
0:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, but we're here now and we're getting our recordings together.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: And that being said, you'll notice that in this episode, we do make some jokes about coronavirus.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, we're very lighthearted when it comes to the whole topic.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we talk about going to the Renaissance fair and we're kind of laughing at the fact that, oh, should we wear plague masks and things, but you know, at the end of the day, this was again um a couple of weeks ago.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: So at this point, as you know, because I'm on the phone, we're we're self-quaranting, we're staying home, social distancing, all of that, um, and making sure that this is treated, you know, with the um severity that it deserves.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: And we know that a lot has changed pretty much like every single day for the last couple of weeks, things just keep getting more serious.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: So you'll notice that again at the beginning of the episode, kind of fun, lighthearted.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: And probably the end of the episode when we go into our segment, we're actually all on the phone.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: Again, all on the phone and practicing on the phone again.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, very much practicing our social distancing.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: So everybody stay home.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: Yes, please stay home.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: I think, like honestly, my mindset does really change because I think a lot of us, I can speak for myself at least, you know.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: I know I'm young, I'm healthy, but stay home for others.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: Stay home for, you know, those who don't have a strong immunity, those who are older, and we're just learning more and more about this virus every day.
1:59
SPEAKER_02: So um, with that said, welcome to episode 12.
2:02
SPEAKER_02: Let's do this.
2:05
SPEAKER_03: Hello, and welcome to Beheaded.
2:07
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to season one, episode 12.
2:09
SPEAKER_03: I'm Megan Moore, and I'm Elizabeth Black.
2:11
SPEAKER_03: And we're gonna talk about the Wild Wild West today.
2:14
SPEAKER_03: Indeed, we're talking about Mr.
2:16
SPEAKER_03: Tom Blackjack Ketchum today.
2:17
SPEAKER_03: Black Jack Ketchum.
2:19
SPEAKER_03: Sounds like a sauce that you get at Texas Roadhouse, really.
2:22
SPEAKER_03: Like a barbecue sauce?
2:23
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
2:23
SPEAKER_03: Like smoky, mesquite flavored kind of sauce.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: I can taste it.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: He's kinda he's also an executed train robber of the Wild Wild West.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
2:31
SPEAKER_03: Yippie Yo, yippie yay.
2:33
SPEAKER_03: With a little twist in his execution that we're gonna get to later in the show.
2:36
SPEAKER_03: I can't wait.
2:37
SPEAKER_03: It's a good one.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: Stay tuned to the very end of this show because as we've promised and promised and promised, we have a real live doctor.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: Finally, to tell us, to tell us what happens during some of these gory details you're about to hear of this botched execution.
2:54
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
2:55
SPEAKER_03: So he's gonna go more into the medical side of things of what happens to your actual body.
3:00
SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be a little weird.
3:01
SPEAKER_03: I am excited.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: But before we get into that, big news.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
3:08
SPEAKER_02: Bigger than coronavirus.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: Way bigger.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: We're back on Instagram.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: Thank God.
3:13
SPEAKER_02: I was nervous.
3:14
SPEAKER_03: We ordered new business cards just because we were like, these ones go to our Instagram that is no longer there.
3:22
SPEAKER_03: So we had to order a whole new batch because we're gonna go to the Renfair this weekend.
3:26
SPEAKER_03: And those are now our bad girl business cards.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: We have the business cards.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I actually have to check.
3:32
SPEAKER_02: I think they're in the mail right now.
3:34
SPEAKER_02: Oh, they're getting rained on.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: Ooh, ooh, that's not good.
3:37
SPEAKER_02: You should maybe go get those.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, after this, we'll go get them.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: Cool.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, but we're gonna label them with like devil face and then angel face for like when we're banned and when we're not banned.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
3:46
SPEAKER_03: And we're not banned.
3:48
SPEAKER_03: We're back to Angel Face, so we can distribute our good girl cards, but we got the bad girl cards whenever we uh do some shit that's not okay on Instagram.
3:55
SPEAKER_02: I solemnly swear I will not post pictures of dictators anymore.
4:00
SPEAKER_03: Ah, I wouldn't swear that.
4:01
SPEAKER_03: They removed that picture.
4:03
SPEAKER_03: I know.
4:04
SPEAKER_03: So if anyone saw it, we posted uh Mussolini three times I tried.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: And every time, so I thought at the very end, like I thought once they reactivated us and they saw that the quote on Mussolini was completely straightforward.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: It was only talking about the facts of his death and execution.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: I really thought that they would just leave it, but they kept it down, which is kind of weird.
4:25
SPEAKER_03: They did keep it down.
4:26
SPEAKER_03: So we've learned our lesson, we won't post it again.
4:28
SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry.
4:29
SPEAKER_03: I've got to do that.
4:29
SPEAKER_03: Which kind of sucks because I feel like we had follow-ups from Mussolini we wanted to post.
4:34
SPEAKER_03: Um we said a few things, we're like, oh, we're gonna post this on his Instagram or on our Instagram and this one, and we just didn't at all.
4:40
SPEAKER_03: So we're not gonna touch that.
4:41
SPEAKER_03: We're gonna move on from the Mussolini episode.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: But I'm really excited because our, like Elizabeth just said, our business cars are linked to the Instagram handle.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: So we're still gonna go to Renfair tomorrow and we're gonna get to pass it out.
4:55
SPEAKER_03: This is actually really funny news because I'm sure you all know because you live in the world, you live on our you have access to civilization, know what's going on.
5:05
SPEAKER_03: The coronavirus is obviously like shutting down everything, like all major sports.
5:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I'm a huge sports fan.
5:12
SPEAKER_03: I think I've talked about this a little, but I mean, like hockey's canceled, NBA's canceled, uh the NCAA tournaments cancelled, all these things.
5:19
SPEAKER_03: Disneyland is crazy.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: I did I did not take this as seriously as I did now until two things happened that changed my like rocked everything.
5:28
SPEAKER_02: Tom Hanks got it.
5:29
SPEAKER_02: Oh.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: And Disneyland is closing.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: At least until the end of the month.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: But that's wild to me because Disneyland has only ever closed three other times in history.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: Right.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: Like I think once in 55, right after they opened.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think when JFK got shot, that was in the 60s, though.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what happened in 55.
5:47
SPEAKER_03: Well, they definitely closed in 55 because their first day was a disaster, so they had to close the park.
5:51
SPEAKER_03: Right.
5:52
SPEAKER_03: They called it Bloody Sunday.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, I know when JFK was shot, I know 9-11, and I think it was like the North Northeast North Northridge Northridge earthquake.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:05
SPEAKER_02: But it's only ever been for a day.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: This is for weeks.
6:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:09
SPEAKER_03: That's crazy.
6:10
SPEAKER_03: Insane.
6:11
SPEAKER_03: So today, Friday the 13th, was the last day it was open.
6:13
SPEAKER_03: So I follow like all these Disney bloggers and whatever.
6:17
SPEAKER_03: I don't follow bloggers.
6:18
SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm not a oh, I love fashion bloggers and whatever crap.
6:20
SPEAKER_03: I just like I love Disney, so I gotta follow.
6:23
SPEAKER_03: I follow like cosplay and Disney hungry.
6:25
SPEAKER_03: She's my historian, so who am I to talk about?
6:28
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I saw all of her posts today, this Disney hungry girl I follow, and I was really like it made my heart hurt a little.
6:34
SPEAKER_03: I was like, man, I really hope that Disneyland's okay.
6:38
SPEAKER_03: That's the only person I care about.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think like today was kind of a big day for us because there's so many companies that are now doing work from home, and our company finally jumped on that bandwagon and we all got our work from home instructions.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: And I'm cracking up because I have one friend who, sweet, sweet, sweet girl, just um had her first baby and made the decision to stay at home with her baby.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: And this was like on Monday, she made this decision.
7:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, very recent.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: Today she texted me and she's just like, let me get this straight.
7:11
SPEAKER_02: I quit to work from home, and now the office is working from home.
7:17
SPEAKER_02: Like, ooh, bad timing.
7:19
SPEAKER_02: Real bad timing.
7:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's been it's just a weird time right now.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: There's no toilet paper.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: Amazon is sold out.
7:25
SPEAKER_03: It's just a little nuts, right now.
7:27
SPEAKER_02: Once Amazon gets sold out, that's when you know.
7:29
SPEAKER_03: Whoa.
7:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, it's just it's just weird.
7:33
SPEAKER_03: Costco lines are wrapped around the block.
7:35
SPEAKER_03: Like, it's just madness.
7:36
SPEAKER_02: We're about to get two different microphones.
7:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, right now, we share a microphone.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: I want to share a microphone with you.
7:41
SPEAKER_02: No.
7:42
SPEAKER_03: She tried to steal my wine earlier.
7:43
SPEAKER_03: I was like, Megan, get out of my wine.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: I don't even high-fi people in the office anymore.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, but we're not gonna be afraid to go to the rent fair because in my mind, we're gonna be like, okay, it's rainy, it's gloomy.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: This is authentic dark age shit.
7:58
SPEAKER_03: It's actually the dark ages.
8:00
SPEAKER_03: The plague is happening.
8:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
8:02
SPEAKER_03: Survival of the fittest right now.
8:04
SPEAKER_03: People that we know that are kind of, you know, runnies have bought uh like plague masks that they're gonna wear at the run fair, which I think is so appropriate.
8:11
SPEAKER_03: I really wanted one myself, but I just I don't want to cover my eyes.
8:15
SPEAKER_03: I'm weird about that part of the mask.
8:17
SPEAKER_03: I am okay with the beak, but I just don't want like the eyes covered too.
8:19
SPEAKER_03: It's like what I'm gonna walk walk around without a eye.
8:21
SPEAKER_03: Oh, you get a drink with it.
8:22
SPEAKER_03: That's also another obstacle.
8:24
SPEAKER_03: They need to make a drinking eyeless plague mask, and I will definitely wear it.
8:29
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, my dog just came up.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: She's never done this while we're podcasting.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: She just came up and like, hey guys, and is just kind of like trying to kiss me on my face.
8:38
SPEAKER_03: Also, Megan has a voice for Penny that I don't agree with.
8:40
SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna do it in front of everyone.
8:42
SPEAKER_03: But it's always this high-pitched, like squeaky little voice, and I'm like, no, Megan, I mean Penny is a sultry character.
8:47
SPEAKER_02: Okay, she doesn't talk to their dog in a high-pitched voice, is crazy.
8:52
SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying you don't talk to her that way.
8:54
SPEAKER_03: I'm saying you always make a voice for her as if it's her and she's not sultry.
8:58
SPEAKER_03: That's not how Penny sounds.
8:59
SPEAKER_03: She's not Jessica Rabbit.
9:01
SPEAKER_03: Penny's like a 300-pound, like sassy bitch.
9:04
SPEAKER_03: I'm sorry, she's only 12 pounds, first of all.
9:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but for her, for her bones, I think that she's a face looking at us right now, like, who me?
9:14
SPEAKER_03: See, exactly.
9:14
SPEAKER_03: That's the voice.
9:15
SPEAKER_03: You that's not what she sounds like.
9:17
SPEAKER_03: She goes, Oh, ladies, talk about something else.
9:19
SPEAKER_03: That's what she's supposed to sound like.
9:21
SPEAKER_03: Trust a weirdo.
9:23
SPEAKER_03: She just winked at me.
9:23
SPEAKER_03: She gets it, she gets it.
9:25
SPEAKER_02: Oh boy.
9:26
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we're excited for the Renfare tomorrow.
9:28
SPEAKER_03: Well, really quick, too, one last rent fair thing.
9:31
SPEAKER_03: Um, we were like actively looking at the website all day to make sure it was, in fact, open.
9:35
SPEAKER_03: Right.
9:36
SPEAKER_03: Everything is closing.
9:37
SPEAKER_03: And uh the first message was like, like, oh, despite, you know, the outbreak, essentially, we're still gonna be open.
9:44
SPEAKER_03: And then we saw an updated message, and we're like, oh, it's definitely closed because it was like a longer message, and you could tell it was just going that direction.
9:51
SPEAKER_03: And it's like, the mayor has warned, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
9:54
SPEAKER_03: It's all this stuff.
9:55
SPEAKER_03: And then at the end it says, like, considering all this and weighing the options, we're remaining open.
10:00
SPEAKER_02: It was like all caps.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: We are open March 14th, March 15th.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: And you know what?
10:06
SPEAKER_02: I say go us.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: Like, we are survivors, we will nothing will make me stop going to the Renfair.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, like bring it on.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna do it.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: Dark age, hashtag dark ages.
10:16
SPEAKER_03: Also, do you think it's gonna be busy because it's a bunch of weirdos like us who are like we don't care, or do you think it's gonna be like dead because people are?
10:23
SPEAKER_02: I think it will be a majority of weirdos.
10:25
SPEAKER_02: I think there's gonna be a lot less kids.
10:27
SPEAKER_02: I think it's gonna be a lot less families.
10:29
SPEAKER_02: Something sad day.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: I and I know that's why we have to go.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: I think it's gonna be a lot of freaks like us.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, uh front row of the jousting.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're gonna throw around those business cards.
10:43
SPEAKER_02: You know what?
10:44
SPEAKER_02: We're gonna be drinking so much rum and we yeah.
10:47
SPEAKER_02: Oh, wait, I'm glad we didn't pick up the rum today.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: We're supposed to pick it up, right?
10:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm picking up in the morning.
10:51
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, okay.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: I have my thing where I look like an alcoholic buying my bottle of rum at seven in the morning, and though everyone's getting their toilet paper with whatever's left of everything of survival kits.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: I'm just like, another bottle of rum.
11:05
SPEAKER_03: I saw a very funny meme today.
11:07
SPEAKER_03: It was like there's two kinds of people in this world, and it was a picture of like a Costco line, and the first person had like piles, like uh, you know, piles of toilet paper in their cart, and the next person just had like a 12-pack of Corona.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: Like I went to Corona first.
11:22
SPEAKER_02: I went to CVS right before this, yeah, because like sometimes it's like a really easy spot for me to pick up our bottle of wine.
11:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and uh the people in front of me had a cart full of diapers, water bottles, like survival things, and I'm just like wine, and it's always the same guy who I see.
11:38
SPEAKER_03: And I know Oh, by the way, that's where they talk to me too much, is at that scene.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know he was talking.
11:43
SPEAKER_03: He talked like he trained them to like make meaningless conversations.
11:47
SPEAKER_02: I cannot believe you're 30, and kept like looking at my license, like, are you sure this is real?
11:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I just want my wine.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: Please, let's continue with this process.
11:56
SPEAKER_03: Well, subtle brag, she looks great.
11:58
SPEAKER_02: Uh thanks.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: Let's hope that sticks.
12:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and if you saw her run fair dress on Instagram.
12:03
SPEAKER_03: Yep, that's my Renfare dress.
12:04
SPEAKER_03: You might be able to spot her.
12:05
SPEAKER_03: If you see her, don't be you know be afraid to say hi.
12:08
SPEAKER_02: It's very iconic, I'd like to say.
12:10
SPEAKER_03: It's it's pretty simple.
12:13
SPEAKER_02: No, it's beautiful.
12:14
SPEAKER_02: I love your dress.
12:14
SPEAKER_02: I got it.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: I do love your dress.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: I got it five years ago, and it's made by Pendragon costumes, and they're normally at Renaissance festivals.
12:22
SPEAKER_02: They have a very cool shop, and I like to say it was like pretty much custom made because I got to pick out the like the fabric combinations with it, and they take your measurements and everything.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: And um But yeah, we're excited to be there.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: So, okay, so wine we have 19 crimes.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: Oh boy, yeah.
12:39
SPEAKER_02: It's a Southwest.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: Did you notice it says Southwest?
12:42
SPEAKER_02: It's like the picture of a criminal, it's like an outlaw.
12:46
SPEAKER_03: But we like where we are in Arizona and the so okay.
12:50
SPEAKER_03: Wait, nope, stop you there, stop you there.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: What did you read this bottle?
12:55
SPEAKER_03: Like the actual criminal.
12:57
SPEAKER_03: Shut up.
12:58
SPEAKER_03: It says on the back, Southeastern Australia.
13:03
SPEAKER_03: Oh.
13:04
SPEAKER_03: Australia.
13:05
SPEAKER_03: Sorry.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: Siri just pick up Why is Siri talking to us?
13:10
SPEAKER_02: Today's End of World Day, by the way.
13:12
SPEAKER_02: What is happening right now?
13:13
SPEAKER_02: Did you hear it?
13:14
SPEAKER_02: What's going on?
13:16
SPEAKER_02: That was weird.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: They're listening to the phone.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: Your phone's all the way over there.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my phone's all the way across the room, and Siri's like, I'm sorry.
13:23
SPEAKER_02: I didn't quite hear that.
13:24
SPEAKER_03: I said Southeastern Australia, Siri, damn it.
13:28
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, that's it.
13:30
SPEAKER_03: No, look at it though.
13:31
SPEAKER_03: It says Southeastern Australia.
13:33
SPEAKER_03: So I was very CVS.
13:35
SPEAKER_03: There were sick people around me.
13:36
SPEAKER_03: I was very close to the C V or to the uh Southwest.
13:39
SPEAKER_03: But, you know, if you just look at the label, he does look like a Southwest outlaw.
13:43
SPEAKER_03: So good job.
13:44
SPEAKER_03: That's good.
13:44
SPEAKER_03: You know, I we also um I know we're talking a lot about this before we actually get to our story today, but um, we were also talking about having like chili and cornbread today, making this kind of you know a southwestern cowboy-ish episode.
13:56
SPEAKER_03: Um, again, hashtag coronavirus because today at work we just got pizza for lunch, which we never do pizza, we always do like nice catered food.
14:04
SPEAKER_03: So much.
14:05
SPEAKER_03: We just got so much pizza.
14:06
SPEAKER_03: People were taking boxes home because they're prepared to, you know, face the end of times.
14:10
SPEAKER_03: So we have boxes of pizza.
14:12
SPEAKER_03: So we've just had pizza and wine from Australia.
14:16
SPEAKER_03: Anyway, that's a lot of pizza talk.
14:17
SPEAKER_03: Um, ooh, good segue though.
14:19
SPEAKER_03: Uh, being from Denver, we have a pizza chain called Blackjack Pizza.
14:23
SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna use that to go into uh our actual character of the day, Mr.
14:27
SPEAKER_03: Tom Blackjack Ketchum.
14:29
SPEAKER_03: That's the worst transition.
14:31
SPEAKER_03: No, it's a great transition.
14:33
SPEAKER_02: You don't think that's like named after the card game?
14:35
SPEAKER_03: It's hard to tell.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: There's uh Bronco players loosely attached to it.
14:41
SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, we're gonna go with it and run with it.
14:43
SPEAKER_02: I think it's Tom Blackjack Ketchum.
14:46
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
14:47
SPEAKER_03: So he's our man of today.
14:48
SPEAKER_03: Um, loved the story.
14:50
SPEAKER_03: First time we've done like any kind of Western.
14:53
SPEAKER_03: I think wait, we've done American, we've done Salem witch trials.
14:56
SPEAKER_03: That's only American stuff.
14:58
SPEAKER_03: Really?
14:58
SPEAKER_03: Right?
14:59
SPEAKER_02: I think so.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:00
SPEAKER_02: You're right.
15:00
SPEAKER_03: We're doing a little flashback in my head.
15:02
SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, so really only second time.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: For more Americans.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: I know.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: How many times am I allowed to say yee haw?
15:08
SPEAKER_03: Oh god, don't ever stop that.
15:10
SPEAKER_03: Right?
15:11
SPEAKER_03: I'm not singing.
15:12
SPEAKER_03: No, thank God.
15:13
SPEAKER_03: We'll find a way.
15:14
SPEAKER_03: He'll find a way to always.
15:15
SPEAKER_04: I'll bring it in there.
15:17
SPEAKER_03: Um, but anyway, so Tom Blackjack Kitchen, which by the way, he wasn't uh called Blackjack until later in his life, so we'll get to that.
15:24
SPEAKER_03: Um, but he was born on Halloween, fun fact.
15:27
SPEAKER_03: Um, so uh October 31st, 1863, and he was born in Texas in San Saba County or Saba County, tomato tomato.
15:37
SPEAKER_03: Um, and he was a like a very young child when both of his parents passed away.
15:42
SPEAKER_03: He was only five years old when his dad died, and his dad was only 48.
15:46
SPEAKER_03: Um and his mother actually suffered of blindness, but she died when he was 10 years old.
15:52
SPEAKER_03: So by the time he was a young kid, right?
15:54
SPEAKER_03: He was the youngest of eight kids.
15:56
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, in the old west these days, those other eight kids had their own lives, their own responsibilities, had to take care of themselves.
16:03
SPEAKER_03: So pretty much everyone but one brother had left the nest and kind of you know gone on their own path.
16:09
SPEAKER_03: Um, so by the time he's 10, he's essentially an orphan, and all he has is one brother, Mr.
16:13
SPEAKER_03: Sam Ketchum.
16:15
SPEAKER_03: Um, so they leave when he's roughly 27, which I feel is kind of old.
16:19
SPEAKER_03: Like I feel like when you leave home, you're like, especially for back then.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I feel like back then, like your life started when you were yeah, yeah.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: 17.
16:26
SPEAKER_03: 16.
16:27
SPEAKER_03: I found that kind of odd that there's no real documentation of anything prior to him being in his late 20s.
16:32
SPEAKER_03: Um but when he was 27, him and his brother um Sam officially leave Texas and they go to Pecos River Valley in New Mexico.
16:41
SPEAKER_03: So the year is 1894.
16:44
SPEAKER_03: Um, and this is start this is the start of the mischief.
16:47
SPEAKER_03: So they work as cowboys for a while, they're you know just going around trying to find work wherever, but then they're accused of a big um train robbery.
16:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so this is where it starts to get interesting because again, not a whole lot going on in their childhood, but they rob the Action Topeka Santa Fe Railway, for short, the Santa Fe Railway, um, right near like Deming, New Mexico.
17:10
SPEAKER_03: Um, so this is their first big robbery.
17:13
SPEAKER_03: And then shortly after, they rob another train in Nut, New Mexico, Nut N-U-T-T, which is a very strange word for a town.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Is that still around?
17:21
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
17:22
SPEAKER_03: I think it the I think the name has changed.
17:23
SPEAKER_03: We should look that up real quick.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: I want to look it up.
17:25
SPEAKER_02: Nut New Mexico.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's still there.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: Still thriving.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I bet we have to.
17:30
SPEAKER_03: It's a ghost town.
17:31
SPEAKER_03: Listener is a nut.
17:32
SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's a ghost town.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: It's an unincorporated community in ghost town in Luna County, southern New Mexico.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: Can we please go?
17:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's do it.
17:40
SPEAKER_02: What okay?
17:40
SPEAKER_02: I'm looking up the distance from where we are now.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
17:43
SPEAKER_02: I bet it's a hot tourist attraction these days.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: I've never actually been to a ghost town.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: They're weird.
17:49
SPEAKER_02: I've never, I mean, like, I've been like not sperry farm.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm actually and they do like the they like you can ride the sperry farm?
17:55
SPEAKER_02: No, I hate that.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: But you can go on like the train and they do like oh, this is a stick-up boys, and they do like their like reenactment.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: No, I know, but they like have westers and they do a re yeah, they like reenact a train robbery, and maybe they were supposed to be like black jack ketchup.
18:10
SPEAKER_03: It could be.
18:11
SPEAKER_03: Um, so we're checking the distance between us and distracted.
18:14
SPEAKER_03: No, that's fine.
18:15
SPEAKER_02: It takes it's a five-hour drive.
18:17
SPEAKER_03: Oh, we could do it.
18:18
SPEAKER_03: We could totally do that.
18:19
SPEAKER_03: You could go through any interesting towns, not really.
18:21
SPEAKER_03: Tucson.
18:22
SPEAKER_03: Uh nobody cares about Tucson.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, all right.
18:25
SPEAKER_03: So um, so yeah, so again, in his late 20s is when they officially knock off two trains.
18:30
SPEAKER_03: Um, and the second one, the one that was in net New Mexico, they got like a um$20,000 score.
18:36
SPEAKER_03: So that's a lot of money back then.
18:37
SPEAKER_03: That's a shit.
18:38
SPEAKER_03: And that's a lot of money now.
18:39
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I would take that.
18:40
SPEAKER_03: I would take that on a bank heist.
18:41
SPEAKER_03: Are you kidding me?
18:42
SPEAKER_03: So uh, you know, they're starting to kind of gain um some recognition as being these bad boys who are running around the southwest at, you know, at this point getting two train robberies under their belt.
18:52
SPEAKER_03: Um, so at this point they start to kind of rub elbows with uh Bush Cass Butch Cassidy's Wild Bunch, so their gang.
18:59
SPEAKER_03: Um so there's these two daughters, Josie and Anne uh Bassett, uh daughters of Herb Bassett, who was in Browns Peak, Colorado.
19:08
SPEAKER_03: And uh the Ketchum clan kind of gets very familiar with these ladies.
19:12
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, they're not, you know, of the most uh upstanding morals, so they're kind of uh rubbing elbows with the Ketchum boys, they're rubbing elbows with the Cassidy boys.
19:21
SPEAKER_02: And sorry to interrupt you.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: But do you do you feel like this image of these sisters running around with the wrong crowd?
19:29
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's kind of like what's the word to say now?
19:33
SPEAKER_02: Like on the wrong side of the tracks type of a girl now?
19:36
SPEAKER_02: Like kind of yeah, absolutely.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I know, but like think about in modern days now of like someone who might, you know, from the sedier areas of the inner cities.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:46
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's kind of similar?
19:47
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
19:48
SPEAKER_02: Like running around with the gangs and being like the Yeah, they were like the coal coats.
19:53
SPEAKER_03: Well, the funny thing was, but they were like kind of endorsed by their dad because Herb Herb Bassett, Herb, Herb, whatever.
19:59
SPEAKER_03: Herb, Herb, Herb Bassett, their name.
20:02
SPEAKER_03: No one should name their kid that.
20:03
SPEAKER_03: He had this like pretty like nice house in Browns Peak, Colorado, and the Ketchum crew would go and they'd visit there and so does does the Mexican cartel.
20:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, right.
20:12
SPEAKER_03: So they give him or uh Her Herb gives the boys like sustenance.
20:17
SPEAKER_03: He gives them like beef for their long journeys, he gives them nice horses, you know, so he's kind of supplying them and enabling them to continue on their journeys and their uh, you know, sketchy whatever they do.
20:29
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so Josie and Ann are running around with these guys, they're running around with the Cassidy boys.
20:34
SPEAKER_03: Um, they had uh actually Ben um Kilpatrick was one of the guys that was one of their boyfriends.
20:40
SPEAKER_03: Um, Bronco Bill Walters was also another one.
20:43
SPEAKER_03: I feel like these are people I'm supposed to know.
20:45
SPEAKER_03: Well, they're famous cowboys, if you've heard of them.
20:47
SPEAKER_03: Okay, we're not gonna go into detail about them, but just in case people follow Western history, these are some big names there.
20:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
20:53
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
20:53
SPEAKER_03: That's two times you get three, and that's it.
20:56
SPEAKER_03: Um so they end up joining Ketchum's clan as well.
20:59
SPEAKER_03: So at this point, they have this big posse of badass guys.
21:02
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's guys they've acquired on the road who are also kind of vagabonds like them.
21:06
SPEAKER_03: And then through this family, the Bassett family, they also kind of gain these bigger name cowboys.
21:10
SPEAKER_03: So at this point, they're gaining quite a bit of a rep.
21:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, so it isn't until 1895, however, the next year, a lot's happened within a year of them just leaving.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: This is very condensed.
21:22
SPEAKER_03: I know.
21:23
SPEAKER_03: But I guess, you know, if you've been living in one area your whole life and then all of a sudden you get this freedom, you get you get a little crazy, you get on a roll.
21:29
SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's when they well, not they, I should say just Tom.
21:33
SPEAKER_03: So Tom is accused of killing his neighbor John Powers.
21:37
SPEAKER_03: Um, so they think it may have been Sam.
21:39
SPEAKER_03: There's not really conclusive evidence.
21:42
SPEAKER_03: Um, they think it was Sam and a friend named Carver who might have uh taken out the actual killing.
21:47
SPEAKER_03: But regardless, um, Tom was kind of linked to the whole murder.
21:51
SPEAKER_03: Funny part though is that Miss Powers, John's uh wife, was actually the one who went to jail because she had.
22:00
SPEAKER_03: A lover, and they were like, Oh, stop.
22:01
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, it's the wife and the lover.
22:04
SPEAKER_03: So she was the one that got any kind of punishment.
22:06
SPEAKER_03: Uh, and Sam and Tom got off scot for free.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: Do we know what her punishment was?
22:10
SPEAKER_03: No, just I mean, arrested jails.
22:13
SPEAKER_03: I don't know much beyond that.
22:14
SPEAKER_03: You want to look her up real quick?
22:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm doing a lot of lookups.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
22:18
SPEAKER_02: I mean, busy man's goodness.
22:20
SPEAKER_02: What's your name?
22:21
SPEAKER_03: Um, well, her husband's name was John Powers.
22:23
SPEAKER_03: And she says Miss Powers here.
22:25
SPEAKER_03: Mrs.
22:25
SPEAKER_03: Powers.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: John Powers.
22:28
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's not her.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: Very modern-looking woman.
22:34
SPEAKER_03: Uh okay, well, maybe we'll look it up later.
22:36
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
22:37
SPEAKER_03: Well, anyway, um, I think that would be a fun story to follow up on.
22:41
SPEAKER_03: Um, so at this point, uh, the only other like kind of big thing that happens before some of the more juicy things um is that in 1896, the uh the congressman Albert Fountain from Texas goes missing.
22:54
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so it's believed that him and his eight-year-old son were murdered, and they closely link that to um Tom Ketchum.
23:03
SPEAKER_03: So, not really verified.
23:05
SPEAKER_03: I mean, uh other people, again, same thing, went to prison for that.
23:08
SPEAKER_03: But at this point, Tom has a big enough reputation where people are linking kind of these big crimes to his name, and he was seen in all these areas too.
23:16
SPEAKER_03: I mean, so he was very much a man about town.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: Right, and like he's becoming this bad boy image.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, 1896 still, him and his brother Sam, they ro that well, there's a thunderstorm, and these two owners, these two brothers of a convenience store/slash post office, right offer to have them spend the night with them.
23:37
SPEAKER_02: It was Levi and Morris Hurstein.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: Um, and what does um sweet little blackjack and Sam do?
23:46
SPEAKER_02: But they rob them because that's what you do when someone takes you in from a thunderstorm.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
23:50
SPEAKER_03: So they kind of sought refuge there, and in the middle of the night they went and they pillaged the store.
23:54
SPEAKER_03: Again, it was like a store post office kind of convenience store thing.
23:58
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so these brothers awoke awoke to this scene of being burglarized.
24:03
SPEAKER_03: So they actually let a posse out.
24:05
SPEAKER_03: I I was surprised how much posse was the world that I saw in every article.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: Posse was more referred to the good guys who are chasing down the outlaws.
24:16
SPEAKER_02: So they had a posse of four guys.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, Morris, I think he I don't know if he was involved or not.
24:23
SPEAKER_02: Levi was involved.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: Levi.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: Levi was involved.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: Morris was not involved, yeah.
24:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, so they set out on what so also they called it the outlaw trail of what the outlaws were trailing.
24:34
SPEAKER_03: If you're an outlaw, why do you stick to a trail?
24:36
SPEAKER_03: Isn't that your whole shake?
24:37
SPEAKER_03: Stupid.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: Your whole shake is like his first mistake.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: Go off the path.
24:41
SPEAKER_03: You always go off the path.
24:43
SPEAKER_03: You're a fucking outlaw.
24:44
SPEAKER_02: Never follow the trail of outlaws.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: Um they so they try to take Tom and Sam by surprise, end up in a full-on blown-out shooting, and two of the good guys are found dead.
24:57
SPEAKER_02: So two guys in the posse.
24:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, Levi was one.
25:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm getting there.
25:01
SPEAKER_03: I'm building up to the suspense.
25:04
SPEAKER_03: Well, you said two guys.
25:06
SPEAKER_03: I thought you were done.
25:07
SPEAKER_03: I'm getting here okay.
25:08
SPEAKER_03: So Megan, tell me who the two are.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: One of the guys who gets shot was only wounded and was semi-conscious.
25:15
SPEAKER_02: So he's watching as Ketchum goes up to Levi and just like unloads his rifle on him.
25:22
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I didn't know.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: So, but what this is showing you is like, okay, it wasn't enough just to shoot him once.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: To unload your rifle on someone point blank.
25:30
SPEAKER_02: Like, you've got some nasty deep rooted stuff you got who point-blanked Mussolini.
25:36
SPEAKER_03: You got to do that.
25:36
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
25:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, to do that, and uh so um he sees that.
25:43
SPEAKER_02: And his so Levi's brother Morris ends up actually showing up for Black Jack's trial once we get to the end of the story.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: But he was never tried for this whole robbery and shooting and killing and murdering.
25:57
SPEAKER_03: Everything up to this point, the two um uh trainers.
26:00
SPEAKER_03: Go there and keep getting away.
26:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the two train robberies, the murder of John Powers, the uh supposed murder of Albert Falton, none of these things were things that he was brought to court with, yeah.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so this is where I love this part.
26:14
SPEAKER_02: So, first of all, interjecting really quickly here, around this time, he wasn't quite blackjack yet.
26:21
SPEAKER_02: He was still Tom Ketchum.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but someone mistakenly identified him as Christian Blackjack, who was another outlaw because they all have these funny names.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: They're all like, oh gosh, what are some of these names?
26:33
SPEAKER_03: I had him say, I mean, they were like um they were like Billy the Kid and Jesse James.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: That's not a weird name.
26:41
SPEAKER_02: It's not that weird.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: So there was something called the Hole in the Wall Gang, which basically was like an organized game in the Wild, Wild West, and it was a bunch of different gangs that formed together.
26:54
SPEAKER_02: And so, in this, like, here's just some of these funny names.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: It's like Butch Cassidy's Wild Bunch, Sundance Kid, Tall Texan, uh George Flat Nose Curry, um, let's see, Laughing Sam Carrie.
27:09
SPEAKER_02: Like, they all have these little like um like just adjectives with them.
27:14
SPEAKER_03: I think the way they developed these was um because obviously coming to America and living in the Southwest, especially, there's a lot of Native Americans, and Native Americans like have these names that represent who they are, you know what I mean?
27:27
SPEAKER_03: So it's names like like Dark Feather and Black.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: Wait, I like this one.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: Camila Def Charlie Hanks.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh, hell yeah.
27:34
SPEAKER_02: Do you think he had a hearing problem?
27:35
SPEAKER_03: Perhaps.
27:36
SPEAKER_03: Ooh, what would can you go?
27:38
SPEAKER_03: Can you make one up for me?
27:39
SPEAKER_03: What would I be if I was in the the West?
27:41
SPEAKER_02: I'm scared to say anything.
27:44
SPEAKER_02: Do it.
27:44
SPEAKER_02: It would be um sassy pants, Elizabeth.
27:49
SPEAKER_02: Sounds quite scary.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: I need to think more about that.
27:52
SPEAKER_02: Okay, we'll come back to that.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: Okay, you're gonna you're about to kill me, and it's okay if you want to edit this part out.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: But am I able to make another Muppet Treasure Island reference?
28:03
SPEAKER_02: It's been like four.
28:05
SPEAKER_02: It's been this is our thing now.
28:06
SPEAKER_03: It's been a few episodes.
28:07
SPEAKER_03: It's definitely not our thing.
28:09
SPEAKER_03: Do not put that on us.
28:10
SPEAKER_03: It's not our thing.
28:11
SPEAKER_03: But because it's been some time since the last one, I I'll allow it.
28:15
SPEAKER_03: Whatever.
28:15
SPEAKER_03: It's our Disney Plus.
28:16
SPEAKER_03: I've been watching it quite frequently.
28:18
SPEAKER_03: That's fine.
28:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay, but it it reminds me of when they're doing the roll call with all the pirates.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: And they're like No, I know exactly what scene you're talking about.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: Old Bob.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: Real old Bob.
28:29
SPEAKER_02: It's Tom.
28:30
SPEAKER_02: Tom.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: Oh, how do you see you do know it?
28:33
SPEAKER_02: I know quotes really well.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: Old Tom.
28:35
SPEAKER_03: And it's like, old Tom, I and he's like, real old Tom, I dead Tom.
28:40
SPEAKER_03: And it's like a skeleton, someone is like, Exactly.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: And then he's like, Headless Bill?
28:45
SPEAKER_02: Headless Bill.
28:45
SPEAKER_02: And the guy without the head is waving his arms.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: He's like, anyways, it reminds me of that.
28:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: That was my okay, that might be my last muppet Treasure Island.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: I doubt it.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: And if you haven't seen it, go see it on Disney.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: On Disney Plus.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: No free ads.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: What were we talking about?
29:00
SPEAKER_02: Oh, Hole in the Wall gang.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: Um, wow, sidetracks.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so Sam and Black Jack, who was mistakenly identified as Christian Black Jack, who was another outlaw.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: So now he kind of like stole that name.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: So now he's Blackjack Ketchum.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: Um, they're a part of this gang now, and they're doing more and more train robberies.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: And in on September 3rd, 1897, they did a big train robbery at Twin Mountain, which went fine and successful.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: Very great.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, July 11th, 1899, so two years later, um, part of their gang robbed the train again.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: Right.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: It was um blackjack was not there, but it was his brother Sam.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: Does Sam have a nickname?
29:51
SPEAKER_03: Just Sam?
29:52
SPEAKER_03: Why not?
29:52
SPEAKER_03: Because his word is like uh name is enough.
29:54
SPEAKER_03: It's like Madonna.
29:56
SPEAKER_03: Sam.
29:58
SPEAKER_03: That's boring.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: Um they were with the Wild Bunch gang.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: Right.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: And they robbed it again and it didn't go as well.
30:05
SPEAKER_03: No.
30:06
SPEAKER_03: At this point, um, Sam was essentially tracked down by a posse.
30:09
SPEAKER_03: Remember?
30:10
SPEAKER_03: Good guy.
30:11
SPEAKER_03: Name, I guess.
30:12
SPEAKER_03: Uh, and uh they had a shootout.
30:14
SPEAKER_03: So at the shootout, he was deeply wounded.
30:18
SPEAKER_03: I forget where he was hit exactly.
30:19
SPEAKER_03: Do you know?
30:20
SPEAKER_03: I don't know where the bullets hit.
30:21
SPEAKER_03: Um, but he got really wounded at this uh shootout.
30:24
SPEAKER_03: So he was taken to prison while he was essentially like bleeding out.
30:28
SPEAKER_03: So sad to say it.
30:30
SPEAKER_03: R.I.P.
30:30
SPEAKER_03: Sam, but he did die.
30:32
SPEAKER_03: The prison extra.
30:34
SPEAKER_03: Sam the Wounded.
30:35
SPEAKER_03: Sam the Wounded.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: Catch him if you can, Sam.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: Sam wise Gamby.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: Gamge.
30:41
SPEAKER_02: Gam G.
30:42
SPEAKER_02: Is that really it?
30:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: Have you seen the movie?
30:45
SPEAKER_02: Awkward.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: Saying it wrong for a second.
30:47
SPEAKER_03: Gambi, no, you're it's fine.
30:50
SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, so that essentially is what led to the final act of Mr.
30:55
SPEAKER_03: Tom because in August 1899, so only a month after his brother Which is pretty ballsy.
31:01
SPEAKER_03: Well, he did I don't know for sure if he thought his brother was gonna be a part of this and they like miscommunicated and he didn't get any information.
31:09
SPEAKER_03: But apparently he had no idea of his um brother's uh I won't say murder, but of his killing.
31:15
SPEAKER_03: Um, so in eight August of 1899, he goes and he decides he's going to single-handedly rob the train again at Twin River.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: Right, because if the first gang couldn't do it with a team, well he can do it on his own.
31:29
SPEAKER_03: I think he was just like the first time, you know, two years ago, it was very successful.
31:32
SPEAKER_03: He thought, oh, it's like clockwork, I know exactly where this train is going and what I'm doing.
31:36
SPEAKER_03: He didn't hear about the one that was failed with his brother.
31:39
SPEAKER_03: So he thinks, great, I'm gonna take care of it myself.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, what's kind of cool is the conductor has gone through so many train robberies at this point, like he's fed up and he's tired of just sitting back and letting them take over, and he's not afraid anymore.
31:52
SPEAKER_02: His name is Frank Harrington, by the way.
31:54
SPEAKER_02: Frank Harrington says, I'm gonna be on the right side of history this time, and I'm gonna take this bastard down.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: And he does, sort of, not completely, but he does that.
32:05
SPEAKER_02: They do end up in a shooting, and he shoots blackjack ketchup in the arm.
32:10
SPEAKER_03: In the arm.
32:11
SPEAKER_03: And I saw two different accounts of this.
32:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, one thing I saw said that uh Tom was riding up to the train on horseback, and Frank spotted him out of the corner of his eye, and so he um shot him in the arm and knocked him off his horse.
32:23
SPEAKER_03: So that was one account.
32:25
SPEAKER_03: The second account was that uh Tom actually boarded the train and was kind of struggling with Frank.
32:31
SPEAKER_03: Um and uh I guess he he was eventually shot and fell out of the train like after he was shot.
32:37
SPEAKER_03: So it's kind of funny.
32:38
SPEAKER_03: Uh I don't obviously know which one is the um correct statement, but either way, he's laying in the desert, shot in the arm, and he was so weak that you know he couldn't uh take his horse anywhere.
32:50
SPEAKER_03: And again, one account is that he was found um by the posse that was trying to track him down, and they finally got their guy.
32:56
SPEAKER_03: Another account says that they that he waved down the train, like this the next train that was coming the next day.
33:02
SPEAKER_03: And I don't this sounds a little dramatic to me, so I don't believe this one as much.
33:06
SPEAKER_03: But apparently he he waved the the other train down, the train stopped, and the conductor the conductor came up to him and blackjack drew drew a gun, and the conductor said, Hey, we came to help you, but if this is how you feel, we'll go and we'll leave you alone.
33:20
SPEAKER_03: And blackjack said, No boys, I'm done.
33:23
SPEAKER_03: Take me in.
33:24
SPEAKER_03: Oh blackjack! I know.
33:26
SPEAKER_03: So that sounds way dramatic.
33:28
SPEAKER_03: That sounds like a very cinematic portrayal.
33:30
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, so one was that he was just wounded and they found him, another was that he kind of turned himself in.
33:35
SPEAKER_03: But what's funny about that account, too, of him turning himself in, that apparently he gave a fake name because he was saying, like, okay, I admit to trying to rob the train, but I'm a first-timer, my name is George Stevens.
33:47
SPEAKER_03: So he kind of went on this whole thing.
33:50
SPEAKER_03: George Glass.
33:51
SPEAKER_03: I'm George George.
33:53
SPEAKER_03: Um, so he again was taken and he tried to plead, like, oh, this is my first time and I'm sorry.
33:59
SPEAKER_03: Um, but they got their guy, got their guy, and it's at this point they arrest him.
34:07
SPEAKER_02: He's still wounded, he gets his arm amputated while in jail.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: And like, let's first think about that.
34:14
SPEAKER_03: And they take him all the way to Trinidad, Colorado, which is fairly far.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: Where sorry, where was this again where this happened?
34:20
SPEAKER_02: It was in New Mexico right now.
34:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
34:22
SPEAKER_03: So this is near uh it's in Twin Mountain, New Mexico.
34:25
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
34:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but they take him all the way, and Trinidad's like not that close to the border of New Mexico.
34:28
SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm from Colorado, I've been to Trinidad a few times.
34:31
SPEAKER_03: It's a very tiny town, don't go there for any reason.
34:33
SPEAKER_03: Um might have listeners there.
34:36
SPEAKER_03: We don't, I checked.
34:37
SPEAKER_03: We love Trinidad.
34:38
SPEAKER_03: Nope.
34:38
SPEAKER_03: That was Penny talking.
34:40
SPEAKER_02: Again, Penny with the fake voice.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: Um, but think about it.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: So this is 1899, and he is getting his arm amputated because it's wounded, and there was especially because he's an outlaw, you know they did not give him any alcohol, any morphine, nothing.
35:00
SPEAKER_03: Who knows though?
35:01
SPEAKER_03: I mean, if maybe whiskey.
35:03
SPEAKER_03: Human to human, you gotta give him something for the pain.
35:06
SPEAKER_03: Ugh.
35:06
SPEAKER_03: I feel like, I mean, oh god, I can't imagine in that era, but yeah, they probably just put a belt on your arm to stop the bleeding, you know, tighten the belt around your upper arm, and then they give you a ton of whiskey, and then they just go, I mean, this is shortly after the Civil War, too.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: So it's not like amputations were a new thing by any means.
35:22
SPEAKER_03: Well, in human history, they're not a new thing, but what you do for them is varies from generation to generation.
35:28
SPEAKER_03: Um, so he after he kind of healed up in um Trinidad, they sent him back to Clayton, New Mexico for trial.
35:36
SPEAKER_03: So I don't have a whole lot of details on the trial.
35:38
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you found much on the trial.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: I didn't find much on the trial either, to be honest.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: And I think part of that is like everyone just obviously knew he was guilty.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: I did like this part though.
35:48
SPEAKER_02: He ended up just kind of like taking credit for a bunch of other robberies as well for men who were already in prison.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: So he's trying to kind of like save them out of like, no, no, no, this guy's actually innocent.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: I did that.
36:01
SPEAKER_02: And like, I kind of see a side of blackjack that I like.
36:05
SPEAKER_03: He went from being like, I'm George Stevens, and I'm a first-timer to like, actually, I'm fucking blackjack, and I did every robbery you've ever heard about.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you heard about Tucson in '95.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that was me.
36:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, so he is now this poor guy has his arm amputated.
36:23
SPEAKER_02: He's sitting in prison, and they kind of keep him there for a bit because his execution was in 1901.
36:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's Did you notice that?
36:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I did.
36:32
SPEAKER_03: So it's like uh about two years later.
36:35
SPEAKER_02: That's a long time.
36:36
SPEAKER_03: So it his arm must have healed.
36:38
SPEAKER_03: I think, I mean, it did take a while for the arm to heal.
36:40
SPEAKER_03: Obviously, it's an amputation in 1899, so it's not gonna be a short uh report.
36:46
SPEAKER_03: We don't know.
36:47
SPEAKER_03: Was it?
36:48
SPEAKER_03: Did they give him some Native American medicine and it healed?
36:52
SPEAKER_03: And it took a year for the healing.
36:54
SPEAKER_03: We don't know.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: We don't know.
36:55
SPEAKER_02: He must have been eating quite well though, because he was 190 pounds.
36:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he gained weight in jail, which was funny, and this comes into play a little bit later.
37:03
SPEAKER_03: But most people, it's like when you especially when you see uh, you know, any kind of movies or shows where they show people thrown in jail and within months their skin and bones.
37:11
SPEAKER_03: Oh no, blackjack gained weight.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: Good for him.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, again, don't know what he was eating.
37:15
SPEAKER_03: Maybe people were sneaking him some cakes.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: I bet he had his like last meal like every night.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: He's like, you know what, tomorrow's the day, give me my last meal.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: And then they maybe they kept postponing it, so he just kept getting like these big feasts every night.
37:28
SPEAKER_03: It could have been, who knows?
37:29
SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
37:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, so he is set to be hanged.
37:33
SPEAKER_03: And his uh con his official charge was a felony um with assault upon a railway train.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: He was actually the last uh criminal in America to be hanged for train robbery.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, specifically train robbery, specifically for train robbery.
37:50
SPEAKER_02: Um so on the day of the execution, it's kind of crappy because the executioners, we've heard the story before, they are inexperienced.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: Right.
37:59
SPEAKER_03: It's so funny because when you think of any execution, you're like, oh, it's kind of morbid to have someone who's done this a bunch of times.
38:05
SPEAKER_03: But it's also very smart to do because you have these novices that are like, shit, we gotta hang this guy at 8 a.m.
38:11
SPEAKER_03: in the morning.
38:12
SPEAKER_03: Dude, did you bring a rope?
38:13
SPEAKER_03: What do we do with him?
38:14
SPEAKER_03: Do we drop him through this trapdoor?
38:15
SPEAKER_03: Like, how does this work?
38:16
SPEAKER_03: Like, they don't know, they don't have YouTube, like how to build it.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: And like how many opportunities do they even get to practice?
38:23
SPEAKER_02: So that's what they would do is they would practice with weights, like on the scaffold with the hangman's noose, because this is at the point where on the scaffold they would actually drop down like the what do you call it, like this the scaffold, like they would have the little trapdoor, right?
38:38
SPEAKER_02: And the body would drop down.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, so we mentioned it before, but on executedtoday.com, very, very cool resource, very cool website.
38:47
SPEAKER_02: They have like the they call them drop tables, and it's like their recommendations back in the 1800s of based off of the size, the weight of the prisoner, how long the drop should be.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: Because, and this is important though, because like the lighter you are, the higher the drop.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: Right, because it needs to be a more significant fall for you.
39:10
SPEAKER_02: Speaking of which, remember you talked about this how one of your favorite um Hollywood executions was Pirates of the Caribbean when they mass hang everyone.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: And at the very end they hang the little boy.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: So I I thought like they put him up on the barrel because he was too short to hit get to reach it.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: But really, do you think they were adding more height so that he would drop farther?
39:33
SPEAKER_02: Oh, that could have been.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: Right.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a really good point, actually.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: So this is a really cool table, and we were like comparing it of it.
39:42
SPEAKER_03: If we share this on Instagram, will we get banned again?
39:45
SPEAKER_03: We I'm so afraid to post anything.
39:47
SPEAKER_03: I think we just give it a shot.
39:48
SPEAKER_03: People are our listeners know this table.
39:50
SPEAKER_03: It's facts.
39:51
SPEAKER_03: Our listeners know now if we're gone, it's just not because we're like shutting down business.
39:56
SPEAKER_03: It's because they don't like us.
39:57
SPEAKER_02: Because we did some bad shit again.
39:59
SPEAKER_02: Because we're a sensationalizing death.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so if you're 130 pounds, just throwing it out there, a recommended drop in feet should be six and a half feet.
40:08
SPEAKER_03: Damn.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: If you're a hundred and ninety pounds, like blackjack, recommended was four and a half feet.
40:14
SPEAKER_02: But what height did they give him, Megan?
40:17
SPEAKER_02: Seven feet.
40:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:18
SPEAKER_03: Not good.
40:19
SPEAKER_03: Nobody.
40:20
SPEAKER_03: That's like drop in me.
40:22
SPEAKER_03: I'm not 190 pounds.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: But there's two different stories to this because one version says these inexperienced executioners um made the drop too big.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: Another story I read was they accidentally left like 200 pounds of weight or something from when they were practicing.
40:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they were practicing with like a sandbag.
40:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:44
SPEAKER_02: But how do you like leave that on there?
40:46
SPEAKER_02: And where?
40:47
SPEAKER_02: Like what?
40:47
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I believe that version.
40:49
SPEAKER_02: But we did hear that.
40:50
SPEAKER_02: This is more reasonable that the they just like miscalculated.
40:52
SPEAKER_03: Well, I think it was both.
40:53
SPEAKER_03: Like, I I think it was the rope was too long.
40:56
SPEAKER_03: He had gained weight, so he was heavier than expected.
40:58
SPEAKER_03: Even though this table is supposed to be like based on the the weight they are the day before the execution.
41:04
SPEAKER_02: This is the weight is that of the clothed prisoner in pounds the day before the executioner.
41:09
SPEAKER_02: Right.
41:10
SPEAKER_03: So I wonder if that's such an official thing that they always do.
41:12
SPEAKER_03: Like, okay, we gotta weigh you.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: I did not know that.
41:14
SPEAKER_03: How to, yeah, how to do the role.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: And that's what I do.
41:16
SPEAKER_02: Like when I weigh myself, you are damn straight.
41:19
SPEAKER_02: I am butt naked right uh right in the morning, right when I've peed and pooed and everything's gone.
41:25
SPEAKER_02: But like clothes off, it makes a difference.
41:27
SPEAKER_02: And you're like, yeah, look at that.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: And then by the end of the day, and you have your clothes on, it can make a difference.
41:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm sure it does.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: So very important.
41:34
SPEAKER_02: They have to be clothed unless they're being executed naked and the day before.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: So it so this became a problem.
41:42
SPEAKER_02: And Elizabeth, what happened?
41:43
SPEAKER_03: Well, okay, so as soon as they um, you know, told him that he had last words, there's two different accounts of last words.
41:50
SPEAKER_03: We think one is the actual one, and one is what the newspaper said.
41:52
SPEAKER_03: So obviously the newspapers were quite wrong.
41:56
SPEAKER_03: But uh, so what he did say was goodbye.
41:58
SPEAKER_03: Please dig my grave very deep.
42:01
SPEAKER_03: All right, hurry up.
42:02
SPEAKER_03: And that was the last thing he said.
42:03
SPEAKER_03: Oh, all right, hurry up.
42:04
SPEAKER_03: But of course, newspaper to get a hold of this, and this is kind of the first like showings of media, I think, of being like, ooh, okay, because they have pictures now, they have uh photographers there.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: Well, not only that, didn't they sell tickets to you?
42:17
SPEAKER_02: Oh, they did.
42:17
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so what they did was they closed a bunch a bunch of stores nearby, the saloons remained open, so everyone was drinking and having a good time.
42:25
SPEAKER_03: It was a big event, so people sold tickets to this event, like local lawmen did.
42:30
SPEAKER_03: Um, there was little dolls of Tom hanging on a stick.
42:34
SPEAKER_03: So our first like confirmed actual merchandise that was there.
42:37
SPEAKER_03: Get the merch.
42:38
SPEAKER_03: Right.
42:38
SPEAKER_03: So people are buying these little tiny hangmans on sticks, um, and people are all excited about it.
42:44
SPEAKER_03: So the media was there, they're photographing.
42:46
SPEAKER_02: People from like multiple like neighboring counties and towns are coming to see this.
42:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, so so you read the actual quote.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: What the newspaper said is he said, I'll be in hell before you start breakfast, boys.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: Let her rip.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
43:02
SPEAKER_02: That's great.
43:03
SPEAKER_02: It's cute.
43:04
SPEAKER_02: So they drop up and oopsies, too much weight, too much height.
43:09
SPEAKER_02: Botched.
43:10
SPEAKER_02: Botched.
43:11
SPEAKER_02: His head comes off.
43:13
SPEAKER_02: Clean.
43:14
SPEAKER_02: Clean off.
43:15
SPEAKER_02: So this is again just quoting the newspapers of the day.
43:18
SPEAKER_02: It said, when the body dropped through the trap, the half-inch rope, half-inch rope, severed the head as cleanly as if a knife had cut it.
43:30
SPEAKER_02: The body pitched forward with blood spurting from the headless trunk.
43:35
SPEAKER_02: The head remained in the black sack and flew down into the pit.
43:39
SPEAKER_02: Some men groaned.
43:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
43:41
SPEAKER_03: So in the black sack, what they're referring to is like he was wearing like um like a hood.
43:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was pretty standard.
43:47
SPEAKER_03: Like pinned to his shirt, so when the head actually came off, it was still like near the body.
43:54
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't like flying around because it was attached to this um black sack.
43:59
SPEAKER_02: Oh, and this is.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: Great too.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: They have photos.
44:02
SPEAKER_02: They do.
44:02
SPEAKER_02: They have photos of before the hanging of and again, like these are eight, these are like 1901, like very grainy photos, but there's a photo of him as they're fitting the noose on him without the hood on his face.
44:15
SPEAKER_02: So you can see his like nice little dapper mustache, and he's got his hair like nicely combed.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: He's wearing a nice suit.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: He looks very nice.
44:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then with him with the hood on, right before they're about to drop it, so he's still alive.
44:27
SPEAKER_02: Next photo laying on the ground, decapitated with like these other cowboy type of men with their cowboy hats.
44:35
SPEAKER_02: It's like photos, like posing next to him, like they're proud of what happened.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
44:39
SPEAKER_03: Oh.
44:39
SPEAKER_03: It's a pretty dark picture.
44:41
SPEAKER_03: This was actually, I don't know if you read this, but this became a popular postcard in Clayton, New Mexico.
44:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
44:46
SPEAKER_03: So when people were kind of like popularizing, like, hey, come to Clayton to hang out, still advertise.
44:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they advertise this, and it's such a gruesome photo.
44:54
SPEAKER_03: But back in the day, this sold like hot cakes.
44:57
SPEAKER_03: Um, better part too.
44:59
SPEAKER_03: So after he was decapitated and people took photos with him and it was sensationalized, sensationalizing death.
45:06
SPEAKER_03: Um, his head was sewn back on.
45:10
SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that.
45:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, they drove for for viewing, for public viewing, because they wanted people to like see this, you know, um this robber, this burglar.
45:18
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, because like people wanted to catch him.
45:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, catch him, catch him.
45:22
SPEAKER_03: Like just catch him.
45:23
SPEAKER_03: That was actually not intentional.
45:24
SPEAKER_03: It's okay.
45:25
SPEAKER_03: Um so they they uh sewed his head back on.
45:29
SPEAKER_03: Um he was on like, you know, like a yeah, like a place in Oh, I can't.
45:34
SPEAKER_03: He was a place in Boot Hill in Clayton, uh, where they put him up for be for viewing.
45:39
SPEAKER_03: So it wasn't until a while later that they actually buried him in the Clayton cemetery.
45:42
SPEAKER_03: But for a while And you can still go and see him, right?
45:45
SPEAKER_02: Well, not like a head, but like you can see him.
45:47
SPEAKER_02: You can see his his uh yeah, the cemetery in Clayton.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I'm dying to know like how does this even happen?
45:54
SPEAKER_02: What happens?
45:54
SPEAKER_02: What happens to your body when you're sliced by a rope at your neck?
45:58
SPEAKER_03: I think we need Dr.
45:59
SPEAKER_03: John.
46:00
SPEAKER_03: I think we need Dr.
46:01
SPEAKER_03: John for this one.
46:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so we have Dr.
46:08
SPEAKER_02: John on the line here.
46:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, you're probably gonna notice this is really weird, but Elizabeth is also on the phone.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: So say hi, you guys.
46:16
SPEAKER_01: Hi you guys.
46:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay, that was a great sound check.
46:20
SPEAKER_02: Good job.
46:20
SPEAKER_02: Um, the reason both Elizabeth and Dr.
46:24
SPEAKER_02: John are on the phone, um, we recorded that first section like two weeks ago, and so much shit has gone down in the past two weeks with coronavirus, and we were really just trying to figure out the logistics of getting us all together, and we had every bit of intention of doing this as an in-person interview with Dr.
46:43
SPEAKER_02: John, but he is on the front lines, like literally battling coronavirus as you know, as a day-to-day experience right now.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: So, first of all, Dr.
46:53
SPEAKER_02: John, thank you.
46:54
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, thank you.
46:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, we appreciate what you're doing with helping the entire world with this virus, and thanks for being on our show.
47:01
SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody, my name is Dr.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: John.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: I am a board certified internal medicine physician here in the Phoenix area.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: And I just want to say that um, although I've searched through all of my medical literature, there is like an encyclopedia that's only accessible to physicians with all the current up-to-date medical literature.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: I was not able to really find much on the heading because it's usually a terminal act.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: And everything we're about to talk about today is mainly for entertainment purposes and should not be used to guide any medical decision making.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: That sounded so kick this off, Dr.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: John.
47:37
SPEAKER_01: It did.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: It did.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate that.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: You've already put all of our other episodes to shame in terms of your level of professionalism, but I have one question that's super important that we have to get to first.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: What are you drinking?
47:51
SPEAKER_00: Very good question.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: I have got a heart shelter with a hint of blueberry and FI.
47:58
SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's perfect.
48:00
SPEAKER_01: Very much a doctor drink.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: Asae?
48:02
SPEAKER_01: How do you say it, Megan?
48:04
SPEAKER_02: Asae?
48:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm just copying what you guys are saying.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: It sounds like a tribe.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know it does.
48:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, Elizabeth, you had another very pressing question that I know you've been holding back.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: Your number one question you want to ask Dr.
48:20
SPEAKER_02: John.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh, also, is there a cure for beheading?
48:25
SPEAKER_01: I heard the road to recovery is quite difficult.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, um, as it stands, the the whole purpose of beheading is for execution, and there's no there's no known cure yet, but I'm sure somewhere in some parts of the world they are working hard at it.
48:41
SPEAKER_02: Do you really think so though?
48:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, me and Megan have plans.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: We have big plans for how we go, and uh I think it kind of entails reattaching our heads at some point.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, um I guess my hosts Elizabeth and Megan asked me to come talk about what the physiological effect is of beheading, and I'm gonna talk about briefly the purpose of the body.
49:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, why do you even have a body in the first place?
49:07
SPEAKER_00: The whole purpose of having a human body is to supply oxygenated blood to the brain via some cardiac pressure or heartbeat or blood pressure as we call it.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: And that's the whole reason why we have everything below the neck.
49:21
SPEAKER_00: And the act of decapitation, a beheading, is usually through execution, but it's mainly by removing the head, hence decapitation.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: And there are several mechanisms uhon which how this could happen.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: We've already talked in the past about blades and cuts, so axes and swords and knives, and recently the guillotine.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: So that's a blade cut.
49:43
SPEAKER_00: There is another kind of way of beheading or decapitation called the traumatic decapitation.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: And we typically see these in blunt traumas like motor vehicle accidents or explosions, electrical fire, electrical explosions, etc.
49:56
SPEAKER_00: And another less common way of decapitation is through sheer force.
50:01
SPEAKER_00: And you can do that by hanging.
50:03
SPEAKER_00: So that occurs when you stretch the tissues to the point that it breaks, and the most rollable part, the weakest link, is usually the cervical cord, which is in your neck, and that breaks away, and that leads to beheading.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: So let's talk a little bit about the physiology of the heading.
50:20
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk a little bit about the physiology of beheading.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: So the main reason why people die from beheading is an acute blood loss.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: So you're losing that oxygenated blood to the brain.
50:31
SPEAKER_00: You have no cardiac pressure because you separate the head from the heart, and at that point, all the blood drains out of the brain.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: We can simulate a little bit of this blood loss at home.
50:41
SPEAKER_00: Like, how who among us hasn't become super dizzy when you got out of bed really quickly?
50:46
SPEAKER_00: Right?
50:47
SPEAKER_00: You stepped out of bed way too quick and went, Whoa, I feel dizzy.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: Or you got up too quickly from a continental flight, transcontinental flight or intercontinental flight.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: You feel dizzy because you're not getting enough blood to the brain.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: And that can cause transient loss of consciousness.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: That's called syncope.
51:02
SPEAKER_00: But that's short-term.
51:04
SPEAKER_00: That's reversible.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: Your heart picks it up and your heart rate goes up and puts more blood to the brain, it feels better.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: And beheading or decapitation is irreversible, of course.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: So you lose blood to the brain and you develop something called an ischemic brain injury, meaning no blood to the brain, and the tissue starts to die.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: Studies have shown that if you behead an animal, it loses consciousness in about 10 seconds.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: Oh 10 seconds?
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:30
SPEAKER_00: Studies have been done with rats where they where they cut off the head of a rat and within actually three to four seconds they lose consciousness, but it's been as long as ten seconds.
51:40
SPEAKER_02: Wait, so hold on.
51:42
SPEAKER_01: And that confirms every fear I've ever had.
51:44
SPEAKER_02: When you're saying that, do you think that they like are aware of what's going on?
51:49
SPEAKER_02: Do they have feeling?
51:52
SPEAKER_00: So that's the second thing I want to talk about, which is acute blood loss, and if you begin to lose consciousness, they shouldn't have feeling of what's going on.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: But the second thing is feeling pain.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of people are asking, well, is this a painful way to die?
52:06
SPEAKER_00: Is this a painful execution?
52:09
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think so.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: Let me explain why.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: So our body has pain receptors all throughout the our extremities.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: These pain receptors are called gnosisceptors, and they're named after Greek letters like kappa, lambda, mu.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: And what they do is they transmit the feeling of pain up to the brain so the brain can interpret it as pain.
52:29
SPEAKER_00: So that's how opioid medications work, like oxycodone, hydrocodone, they block those receptors so you can't feel the pain.
52:34
SPEAKER_00: So a good analogy is like this.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: Think of your body and your nervous system like a big extension cord leading up to your TV or your lamp.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: And that little plug that you plug in the wall, that's where the chemicals felt.
52:46
SPEAKER_00: That's where the pain is felt.
52:47
SPEAKER_00: So if you cut the cord before the um the plug, you can't activate the plug, you just don't feel the pain.
52:57
SPEAKER_00: So the thought process is that if you cut above the neck, if you decapitate or behead somewhat, then you don't have, you're not triggering those peripheral pain receptors, and there should be no pain.
53:08
SPEAKER_00: That's the thought process.
53:10
SPEAKER_00: So some scientists have decided to investigate this further.
53:13
SPEAKER_00: Are are are animals experiencing pain when they are decapitated or beheaded?
53:18
SPEAKER_00: So some studies have been done with something called an EEG, which is an electro and cephalogram.
53:23
SPEAKER_00: And what that is is a fancy way of measuring electrical brain activity.
53:28
SPEAKER_00: And you can tell if a person's asleep with an EEG or having a seizure with an EEG.
53:33
SPEAKER_00: And EEG certain have um patterns that are reflective of pain as well.
53:38
SPEAKER_00: And in the study that was done with um guotine and beheading rats, euthanizing rats, um, after the rats were decapitated and beheaded, there were some scattered EEG activities, but nothing resembling pain.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: So the hypothesis now is that it's a quick clean cut without the experience of pain, and besides the level of consciousness, consciousness is only for about three to four seconds at max ten anyway.
54:04
SPEAKER_02: Whoa.
54:05
SPEAKER_02: So you're saying like a clean cut, but what about in the case with blackjack ketchup where it was ripped off?
54:12
SPEAKER_02: That's different, right?
54:14
SPEAKER_00: So in his case it might be different because when he fell from the gallows and then there was that rapid whiplash, I'm sure that caused him more of a shock than the experience of pain.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: For instance, like when my patients who are in motor vehicle accidents or patients who are blood force trauma patients, like they like get slammed into the wall really quickly.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: They don't report pain at first.
54:38
SPEAKER_00: They they feel the shock first.
54:40
SPEAKER_00: And then it's only hours after their muscles become sore and the inflammatory pathway gets activated.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: So I highly, highly doubt that blackjack felt pain when he was undergoing the sheer force of hanging.
54:53
SPEAKER_00: I think it was more like a shock, like if you were to like if the wind knocked out of you really quickly, but you didn't have the chance to recover.
55:00
SPEAKER_02: Dr.
55:01
SPEAKER_02: John, I feel the same exact way when I like fall in public or something.
55:05
SPEAKER_02: The embarrassment always hurts way more than the actual pain.
55:08
SPEAKER_02: And then it'll be like after I'm limping away and then no one's looking at me like, oh damn, that really hurt.
55:13
SPEAKER_02: But I don't feel anything at first because I'm just so freaking embarrassed.
55:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just overwhelming humiliation and like wave of just like nervousness, and then you don't even realize until maybe ten minutes later, you're like, actually, that was really painful.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: When I I it out of all the I mean, that's where the guillotine was invented in the first place, right?
55:34
SPEAKER_00: As a more human humane way for execution, rather than having a drunken or unexperienced youth swing a heavy blade because the real executioner was out of town for the day.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: So that that's how the guillotine gets put into place.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: And we actually still use guillotines today in the medical field, not for beheading, but for removing We do.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: We actually use guillotines in the surgical field in the OR for removing limbs.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: So we can guillotine off a necotic leg.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm not joking.
56:07
SPEAKER_00: I I'm I'm shocked right now.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: I've used it myself as a medical student on patients with nicotic toes.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: You want to chop off the foot.
56:17
SPEAKER_00: You put the guillotine above the ankle, and then you just drop the blade and you can guillotine off the leg.
56:23
SPEAKER_00: Guillotine off the foot.
56:24
SPEAKER_00: How big are these guillotines?
56:27
SPEAKER_00: So they're about the size of a shoebox.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: You can put the foot inside the shoe and then shoebox, and then you insert the blade underneath uh over the site, and you have to stabilize the foot.
56:38
SPEAKER_00: And then with one quick action, you guillotine off the foot.
56:42
SPEAKER_00: What if you miss?
56:43
SPEAKER_00: That was still used.
56:45
SPEAKER_02: What if you like get the wrong foot?
56:48
SPEAKER_02: What if you get the wrong foot by accident?
56:51
SPEAKER_00: What if you get like a drunken mute to do it instead of the actual position?
56:56
SPEAKER_00: Um it's designed not to miss, but it's it's not really used anymore for amputating limbs.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: We use a diamond saw nowadays.
57:05
SPEAKER_02: That sounds like a a lot of work.
57:07
SPEAKER_02: Is that like a lot of energy you have to put into that?
57:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that feels like it'd be harder to do.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: The diamond saw is a little bit longer.
57:16
SPEAKER_00: It's actually more brutal.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: You actually take a long piece of string that's actually a metal wire with diamonds on it, you wrap it underneath the leg and you saw back and forth, up and down, up and down, up and down.
57:26
SPEAKER_00: You rub it back and forth, and it just saws through the affected limb.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: Um now it takes it takes it takes a couple minutes, it takes a little bit longer.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: It's not quite a clean cut.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: Very nice clean cut.
57:41
SPEAKER_02: It's made out of diamonds.
57:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
57:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:44
SPEAKER_02: Made out of diamonds.
57:46
SPEAKER_00: Do you have one?
57:47
SPEAKER_00: And Okay, I'm wearing the necklace now.
57:54
SPEAKER_01: So how hard is it for a non-medical professional to get their hands on one of these shoe box size guillotines?
58:00
SPEAKER_02: Say like for the size Okay, no, go on.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: Say for a size uh seven, like a size seven and a half or so.
58:10
SPEAKER_02: Wait, no, Megan's a size like I know I have a large foot.
58:16
SPEAKER_02: I am five foot one and a half with an between an eight and an eight and a half size shoe.
58:21
SPEAKER_02: Make fun of me.
58:22
SPEAKER_02: I don't care.
58:23
SPEAKER_01: That's the one I need.
58:24
SPEAKER_02: Hence why I fall and I get embarrassed.
58:26
SPEAKER_02: My feet are big.
58:29
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if they make I don't know if these saw or geotines are made anymore.
58:34
SPEAKER_00: I haven't done this in 10, 12 years, ever since I was a medical student.
58:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if they're still in practice in surgery, but as of 2009, when I was still in medical school, that's how we would remove uh a necotic leg, a narcotic foot.
58:49
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we should follow an eBay.
58:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think everyone's so consumed with the coronavirus that I feel like we could effectively sneak into a hospital and find one in the back room.
58:59
SPEAKER_01: I think this is a good plan.
59:00
SPEAKER_01: And we're also bored at home.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: I could go to the OR and say, show me to the guillotine.
59:08
SPEAKER_02: If your head is ripped off, how easy is that for your skin to rip like that?
59:14
SPEAKER_02: So it's clean cut off?
59:16
SPEAKER_02: Is skin pretty skin is very, very tough.
59:20
SPEAKER_00: The skin is extremely tough.
59:22
SPEAKER_00: And for instance, when I use hypodermic needles to inject local anesthesia to numb an area before I do a procedure, that needle has to be super sharp.
59:32
SPEAKER_00: And then I'm poking around underneath the skin to inject the local anesthesia, and the skin is it's not easy to tear.
59:39
SPEAKER_00: Um if you think of chicken skin, like chicken breast skin on you know the chicken that you get from the grocery store, it's tougher than that.
59:49
SPEAKER_00: And it it must be pretty rough, sheer traumatic force for this to happen.
59:56
SPEAKER_00: So if you're in a car accident, you all of a sudden stop, that can cause a sheer force.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_00: Or if you're right next to an explosion, that can cause a kind of sheer force.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_00: Then you must have been going pretty pretty good.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if there's any evidence if he had complete decapitation.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_00: Was he like hanging by a couple of threads?
1:00:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm not really sure.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_00: Do you guys know?
1:00:17
SPEAKER_01: They said that um they were pretty sure the neck was pretty clean off, but it was kind of hanging in his um hood.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_01: So like they put like the you know, the hood on him when he was executed.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: So it was either hanging by a couple of threads or it was just in the hood.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_01: But it was like it looked pseudo-attached.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that brings other structure there, too.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_02: That brings the whole term like hanging on hanging on by a thread too, a new level.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_00: Different level.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_02: Different level.
1:00:47
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, what were you saying, John?
1:00:48
SPEAKER_00: And there's there's other structures there too.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_00: There's the cervical column, which is your your vertebrae, right?
1:00:56
SPEAKER_00: And they're all named after numbers.
1:00:58
SPEAKER_00: So C1, C2, C3, C4, C5, C6, C7.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_00: And then with inside the vertebral column, there's nerves too.
1:01:05
SPEAKER_00: Those are pretty fragile.
1:01:07
SPEAKER_00: So the skin is the most um toughest part that's keeping everything together.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_00: And you have neck muscles there too.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_00: So you have to be have experienced some some pretty severe traumatic force, a blade or a shear force, in order to separate all that stuff.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_00: So that's a drop pretty far.
1:01:27
unknown: Oh man.
1:01:29
SPEAKER_01: Seven feet.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_01: Seven feet.
1:01:30
SPEAKER_01: And you said before we started recording, we were talking about all this a little bit, but you had mentioned that in the past there's been several um attempts to reconnect heads.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_00: So in my reading, there's been some pseudoscience of attaching another head onto another body, and it was just talk.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_00: There's no formal evidence or formal studies in peer-reviewed journals that that chronicle this.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_00: But everything I read was that saying that doctors who were doing this, it's all hearsay and all witchcraft and all um pseudoscience, and there's there's no way to real really physically, physiologistally attach a head, which kind of leads me into what I want to talk about as well, is that there are forms of modern-day decapitation and beheading.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_00: And we all know the first one, which is for the execution, and this is done still in the Middle East for political purposes, but there's a less sinister uh reason for why there's beheading and decapitation, and it's for cryogenics.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_00: And in my research, I found that a lot of people try to sever the head and breathe it in liquid nitrogen in the hopes that science will get to the point one day where patients can be revived and the head can be reattached.
1:02:47
SPEAKER_00: And this has been much parodied in TV shows like Suturama, where you put the head in the glass jar talking to you.
1:02:55
SPEAKER_00: But if you think about it from a medical point of view, these heads can only see and hear.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: They can't speak, they can't phonate, they can't generate air to speak at all.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_00: And at best, they would just be able to move their eyes and listen.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_00: And that's if there's no anoxic brain injury.
1:03:13
SPEAKER_00: And that's if we can resupply the blood supply to the brain, it would be horrible.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_00: It'd be like being paralyzed.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_02: Well, Dr.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_02: John, I think we covered a lot of really good stuff.
1:03:23
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so, so much for coming on the show.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_02: Um thank you.
1:03:29
SPEAKER_02: I know again, I know you're so busy helping with the coronavirus pandemic right now, and um glad you got to save some time for us.
1:03:36
SPEAKER_02: So, um, Dr.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_02: John, Elizabeth, do you have any final words?
1:03:41
unknown: No.
1:03:41
SPEAKER_00: And Elizabeth, what was that last comment?
1:03:43
SPEAKER_00: Nobody cares about Tucson.
1:03:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I wish it's going to Tucson.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_01: It's just, you know, we're speaking to people all over the world in a global context.
1:03:52
SPEAKER_01: Nobody cares about Tucson.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_01: I heard that I was like, you have a baby.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: Thank you guys so much for having me on your show.