Latest / The MOOD Podcast / Chico Review, part 2 - What a Portfolio Review Taught Me About My Photography (That 10 Years Didn't)

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Chico Review, part 2 - What a Portfolio Review Taught Me About My Photography (That 10 Years Didn't) · The MOOD Podcast

0:00
Matt Jacob: Morning everyone, penultimate day at Chico.
0:03
Matt Jacob: Look at where we are.
0:04
Matt Jacob: How beautiful is this place.
0:06
Matt Jacob: Just nestled in the hills of or mountains of Montana.
0:12
Matt Jacob: And today we're coming with a little bit of energy.
0:16
Matt Jacob: Here's Fee.
0:16
Matt Jacob: For those of you who don't know Fee Fee's the genius behind the trailers, the drafts, the cuts.
0:23
Matt Jacob: We have an editor, but Fee's the one that curates the draft.
0:27
Matt Jacob: So if you don't know who she is, other than my wife, that's her role.
0:32
Matt Jacob: So she's supporting me here during this week as well as doing her own thing in a non-photographic way.
0:40
Matt Jacob: So today we have again the same format, couple of uh lectures, which I'm heading to now after a quick uh detour to get an espresso, which I will take you to.
0:52
Matt Jacob: Not that it's that interesting, but um while I'm talking.
0:57
Matt Jacob: And then a little break for lunch.
0:59
Matt Jacob: I'm gonna take that time to speak to another uh couple of attendees and see if there's any reviewers that are hanging around I could potentially chat to.
1:08
Matt Jacob: Actually, I have a review with Matthew Gennatempo at 12.30, and then I don't have another one until 2.30 with Odette England, and then Brian Scooter Mat at 3, and then Claudine Diary at 3.30 or 4, I can't remember.
1:22
Matt Jacob: So it's gonna be a busy afternoon, and I'm going to really try hard, like I said last night, to give you guys more conversations with hopefully one or two reviewers if I can get them because they're super busy, and plenty more attendees, and I'll give you a tour later as well.
1:40
Matt Jacob: Um, but here we are in the parking lot and the Gico gift shop, which they also call an espresso bar, which it's not, but uh it has better coffee than the swill we have at breakfast.
1:52
Matt Jacob: So speak to you guys later.
1:54
Matt Jacob: I'm here with uh Gianluca from L'Artier who kindly reviewed me a couple of days ago.
2:20
Matt Jacob: Yes.
2:20
Matt Jacob: Um Gianluca, tell me uh why you're here, what you're looking for, and uh what uh this week means to you.
2:27
Gianluca Gamberini: Uh this week means uh uh a lot of fun and a lot of work.
2:32
Gianluca Gamberini: Yeah, and uh great uh photographic work to discover, so that's always interesting.
2:40
Gianluca Gamberini: Um yes, I I don't know, I think I'm only looking for interesting uh work to publish.
2:47
Gianluca Gamberini: What's interest what what is interesting for you and your brother?
2:51
Gianluca Gamberini: I think that we like a lot work that deal with family and you know with a lot of empathy and connection between human beings, but not only.
3:01
Gianluca Gamberini: So this is like maybe one idea, but there are many other topics that we like.
3:08
Matt Jacob: Yeah, of course, you publish some incredible books.
3:10
Matt Jacob: So um it's been a pleasure to meet you and thank you for for reviewing.
3:12
Matt Jacob: Such a nice review with me the other day.
3:14
Matt Jacob: Thank you very much.
3:15
Matt Jacob: Alright, speak to you later.
3:16
Matt Jacob: Bye bye.
3:16
Matt Jacob: Thank you.
3:17
Matt Jacob: I'm here with Jesse Lenz.
3:20
Matt Jacob: Finally got hold of the most busiest man on the planet right now.
3:24
Matt Jacob: Um, I won't take up too much of your time.
3:27
Matt Jacob: Give us uh give us an insight as to how the week's going.
3:30
Jesse Lenz: It's going great.
3:30
Jesse Lenz: Tenth year.
3:32
Jesse Lenz: Yeah, tenth year.
3:33
Jesse Lenz: I'm exhausted, so everything's going according to plan.
3:38
Matt Jacob: Um what's it like for uh the the I guess the event to be growing every year, for it to be scaling, but what's that like on you as a as an entrepreneur, as an artist, as a leader, as a manager?
3:52
Matt Jacob: It's is it just all-consuming or how how do you manage that pressure and the responsibility?
3:58
Jesse Lenz: Yeah, I mean every year there's just new things to find out you did wrong.
4:02
Jesse Lenz: So just a constant reminder that no job is ever finished, no number is ever you know, checked enough times.
4:11
Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah, just fire fighting all the time.
4:13
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
4:13
Matt Jacob: Before I let you go, um, what are you looking for as a as a publisher more than anything?
4:19
Matt Jacob: What are you looking for in terms of artists that might just stand out and speak to you?
4:24
Jesse Lenz: Um I mean the work is always a thing that gets your foot in the door.
4:28
Jesse Lenz: Um that's you know, that's like first attraction with somebody.
4:31
Jesse Lenz: Um really, it's like um it's like an athlete who wants to be trained, who wants to be pushed, wants to be woken up at 5 o'clock in the morning, sent to go do a you know, cold bath.
4:44
Jesse Lenz: Um it's just someone who needs who needs the work is gonna do the work regardless, but uh might just need some pointing in the right direction.
4:58
Jesse Lenz: I'm not looking for work that's finished.
5:02
Jesse Lenz: Um that's actually kind of a turnoff for me.
5:04
Jesse Lenz: Um I want to see something with potential, but find somebody that uh maybe hasn't quite realized what how good they're doing just yet.
5:17
Matt Jacob: Yeah, I think that's the beauty of this week.
5:19
Matt Jacob: It's uh we put so much pressure on ourselves to kind of have a finished body of work to present to our heroes.
5:24
Matt Jacob: It's not finished just beginning.
5:27
Matt Jacob: Yeah, talk about an ego death.
5:29
Matt Jacob: Um Jesse, thanks so much for putting on such an amazing event.
5:31
Matt Jacob: We're absolutely loving it.
5:33
Matt Jacob: So um hopefully I you I get you to review my work uh at some point in the next few days.
5:38
Matt Jacob: We'll get it.
5:38
Matt Jacob: Cheers, Jesse.
5:39
Matt Jacob: Cheers.
5:40
Matt Jacob: Thanks, man.
5:42
Andrew Aiello: Okay, oh no.
5:44
Andrew Aiello: Uh I was like, okay, the things, and this is based off of like um even what we were talking about in terms of like living a privileged life.
5:51
Andrew Aiello: I was like, okay, if I just like that's not a good or a bad thing.
5:55
Andrew Aiello: Like, what are the things that like have shaped me and the things that like internally I want to explore?
6:02
Andrew Aiello: Concepts, concepts.
6:03
Andrew Aiello: One of them is privilege.
6:04
Andrew Aiello: So what does that look like?
6:05
Andrew Aiello: And I like I live in a neighborhood that's like rapidly gentrifying, and more white people are moving in, and part of my privilege is that I'm white.
6:13
Andrew Aiello: So like there's there's a whole there's something there to explore.
6:16
Andrew Aiello: It doesn't have to be right.
6:18
Andrew Aiello: I don't know what it looks like yet, but I'm like, that's a that's a that's an interesting one.
6:22
Andrew Aiello: So like maybe we can we did it together.
6:24
Andrew Aiello: Maybe I mean this is I could I mean that could be fascinating.
6:27
Matt Jacob: I just also want to explore that, like we're coming here from different yeah, because we're all we're all we're all I think that's why we've we've we're clicking this.
6:33
Matt Jacob: This is true, by the way.
6:34
Matt Jacob: Uh one of attendees here.
6:36
Matt Jacob: Um we just had an amazing talk by by Lindo.
6:40
Matt Jacob: I don't know how to say it was and we're about to sit down, but we'll we'll catch we'll continue this later.
6:46
Matt Jacob: I need to know privilege.
6:53
Matt Jacob: We were I'll I'll try and cut this straight from the conversation that we started to have inside about privilege, but I can't actually remember now.
7:01
Matt Jacob: It's later in the day, and I've had reviews and other conversations, but as a concept, yeah, because it was we were talking after Lindo's talk about like almost feeling like we have like what do we have to share with the world in in some way.
7:15
Andrew Aiello: Because we haven't like I know Todd um and I have been talking about this a lot, another attendee, that it's like our life, relatively speaking, has been quite easy, so it's like what do we have to share with anybody?
7:29
Andrew Aiello: I think when you see other people's work, it's like I don't know, it's easy to minimize your own struggles, whatever they may be, right?
7:35
Andrew Aiello: Or compare them.
7:36
Andrew Aiello: Yeah, which is kind of like a a dead end of anything.
7:40
Andrew Aiello: I don't know why you do that to yourself.
7:42
Matt Jacob: It's just natural human um tendency.
7:45
Matt Jacob: But uh yeah, when you see work like Linda's like you can't help but just go, fuck, I don't have that complexity in my life to create but actually you do.
7:53
Matt Jacob: When you look hard enough, you do.
7:54
Andrew Aiello: Yeah, you do.
7:55
Andrew Aiello: But I think that's the challenge is trying to like have the confidence to talk about your whatever it is and make that I mean as impactful as possible, right?
8:05
Matt Jacob: Well you're on camera now, speaking to a lot of people.
8:08
Matt Jacob: Do you have the confidence to talk about w your work and what you brought to Chico?
8:11
Matt Jacob: Probably not, to be honest.
8:13
Matt Jacob: Well you're gonna have to, I'm gonna force you anyway.
8:16
Andrew Aiello: I mean, my work is we've talked about this, it's quite similar to yours.
8:19
Andrew Aiello: I'd I'm it might not be as explicitly personal as yours though.
8:22
Andrew Aiello: I mean we haven't talked I haven't talked too much about the substance of behind your work, but um yeah, I think uh I've always kind of struggled with strangers or finding my place if I go to a a new place, like trying to crack whatever that may be, and so I tend to see the world from a distance.
8:41
Andrew Aiello: Which when I came here I thought that was my lens.
8:45
Andrew Aiello: And you know, I sp spoken to Janet and Claudine and a few other people and um it seems like there may be a barrier there that I have up, and I think I need to like crack that down a bit.
8:59
Andrew Aiello: Safety barrier?
9:00
Andrew Aiello: Yeah, whatever.
9:01
Andrew Aiello: I mean safety barrier.
9:03
Andrew Aiello: I don't know what it what exactly it is, but like Claudine, you know, there were a couple of my images.
9:07
Andrew Aiello: Like I have an image of like um through a window with like a toy house silhouette with the curtains, and outside is out of focus, and there's um and like she that for me was like kind of a last second one.
9:22
Andrew Aiello: I have a shot of like from New York where you barely see a building, but just a flock of birds.
9:25
Andrew Aiello: It's like kind of blurry.
9:27
Andrew Aiello: And they were like added for me late, like they weren't what I thought I was gonna show.
9:32
Andrew Aiello: Yeah.
9:32
Andrew Aiello: And multiple people have grabbed those and said, like, you need to do more of this.
9:36
Andrew Aiello: This is the connective tissue.
9:38
Andrew Aiello: Like people walking in cities framed nicely in beautiful light or whatever is fine.
9:45
Andrew Aiello: But this is the like Claudine talked this morning, like that's the poetry of it is the other stuff, right?
9:50
Andrew Aiello: So like that sort of fill your narrative out, which is I mean she's blown me away, but that concept like merging narrative with poetry, I think for me is like what I'm trying to do.
10:01
Andrew Aiello: So this has just been like fucking perfect to figure out what that looks like.
10:07
Matt Jacob: Like practically What where do you go next then with it?
10:12
Matt Jacob: Do you you you don't go back to the drawing board, obviously, but you just you have at least some constructive steps that you wanna go back home and just start working on.
10:21
Andrew Aiello: I mean honestly, the first thing I'm gonna go back to my archive because the other thing, you know, Claudine said to me was like she took out a lot of the stuff that had defining characteristics of place.
10:32
Andrew Aiello: So she had some images that she really loved that I took in Tokyo.
10:35
Andrew Aiello: She was like, I know that's Japan.
10:37
Andrew Aiello: So take it out.
10:38
Andrew Aiello: And I was like, damn, that is because like there's something about loneliness is this like transient thing, like no matter where you are, you can experience it.
10:47
Andrew Aiello: So she was like, Do you have shots like in your in a hotel room?
10:51
Andrew Aiello: Do you have shots of I don't know, a ashtray or a I don't know, the view I mean not even the view, but something something else, bed sheets or these are the things that like can fill it in.
11:01
Andrew Aiello: So and I have lots of that stuff as I've traveled over the years.
11:05
Andrew Aiello: I might even open it up.
11:06
Andrew Aiello: I have I was in Poland by myself, and I woke up one morning and I I don't know, there was just beautiful light, and I took some really wide angle shots of my iPhone and I made it black and white.
11:17
Andrew Aiello: I'm like, maybe I need to be experiment like figuring out how I can throw that stuff.
11:22
Andrew Aiello: Because even the idea of like not having my camera lying in bed by myself with my iPhone, now that I'm talking out loud, it's like that's part of I don't know what I'm kind of like I don't know, thinking about in my work.
11:37
Matt Jacob: And uh fascinating stuff, and I really enjoy hearing about people uh un un not unraveling but unwrapping some things that they may have known deep down in subconscious that they'd be able to work on with their images.
11:51
Matt Jacob: But images aside and reviews aside, because it's kind of like the formalities of this, and it's actually a small percentage of of our time here.
11:58
Matt Jacob: How give me a kind of overview for those watching who don't really know what Chico review is about.
12:03
Matt Jacob: Did it how has it hit or not hit your expectations and kind of what else around the review process have you really enjoyed?
12:33
Matt Jacob: He's still recording.
12:34
Matt Jacob: Thanks, man.
12:36
Matt Jacob: Can you remember the question?
12:39
Andrew Aiello: Uh what else yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:40
Andrew Aiello: Um B.
12:44
Andrew Aiello: Um I tried not to come honestly, I tried not to come with any expectations.
12:48
Andrew Aiello: I was told like Marshall Tao, who was who's an attendee and he published the book, and I I contacted him before it came, and that's what he told me.
12:56
Andrew Aiello: He's like, Don't come here with expectations.
12:58
Andrew Aiello: Excuse me.
12:59
Andrew Aiello: But um if I did have expectations, it probably would have vastly gone past it.
13:07
Matt Jacob: So how how what what else have you enjoyed outside of obviously the the the feedback from the work, but in terms of the environment, the the the culture here, the sheer amount of people, the accessibility, what what has really resonated with you as part of the Chico review?
13:22
Andrew Aiello: I mean honestly the the review and the feedback is probably only like 20% of what I'm getting out of this place.
13:27
Andrew Aiello: I mean the f the very first night Jesse Jesse Lenz like he got up and he made a speech, and it was basically about how this place is a great equalizer and that nobody's better than anybody and you should go up.
13:38
Andrew Aiello: And I I thanked him right after he finished because I was like, I felt like it gave me permission to like go out of my comfort zone to approach people and to have maybe uncomfortable conversations or you know, and definitely be myself.
13:54
Andrew Aiello: Um and so I guess I give him a lot of credit for like pulling together the types of people that create that environment.
14:03
Matt Jacob: And I think where we are, because we can't go anywhere around this little campus, like you're kind of forced to like to to be present with everybody else, which I and the reviewers we forget are are all human, and you could tell that in the first days, first few days, people who hadn't been like the Brians and the Matt's have been here five, six times, they're just so oh they're just it's kind of natural for them.
14:24
Matt Jacob: But some of the what some of the reviewers that maybe it's their first year or second year, this they took a few days to warm up, just like we did.
14:31
Matt Jacob: But now on Friday, the penultimate day, like everyone is just mixing and chatting, and no qualms and going up to any of these people that you might have put on a pedestal, maybe still put be put on a pedestal.
14:42
Matt Jacob: But yeah, what else are you gonna do?
14:44
Matt Jacob: Like, I was sitting at the table down there, like my like oh, precious moment that was.
14:49
Andrew Aiello: I don't even know what was the other guy, Jenna Tempo, and then the other guy's name.
14:52
Andrew Aiello: Brian Scooter Matt.
14:53
Andrew Aiello: I don't know them, I didn't have reviews of them, and they sat down and I was just like shooting the shit as if they were you know what I'm saying?
14:59
Andrew Aiello: Yeah, and then like oh, yeah, they're they're reviewers and their publishers, and like they're absolutely huge artists in their own right.
15:05
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
15:05
Matt Jacob: I love that about Brian and Matt.
15:06
Matt Jacob: They're just you know they're best friends, but they um they're they're so open and just like they say it themselves, just normal normal guys just trying to shoot the shit and trying to do their own thing.
15:17
Matt Jacob: And I think that's I agree with you, there's always gonna be some people that are a little bit more standoffish, but generally speaking, the the the the way this place is a is a leveller in both an intrinsic aspect but also as a community just brings people together.
15:31
Matt Jacob: So yeah, we have a lot to thank for that.
15:33
Andrew Aiello: We also remember we ran into Paul Mowgli in the bathroom.
15:37
Matt Jacob: He was like, oh my we were he was having a shit and we were having a piss and we were just talking about Lindo's uh talk and just going, oh my god, and then he comes out and goes, Yeah guys, just just use your inspirations, just enjoy your inspirations, go back to work.
15:50
Matt Jacob: I was like, fuck doing it.
15:51
Andrew Aiello: He was like, go home and like keep like going to the he's like go to the bookstore or go to the library, like don't stop when you leave here.
15:57
Matt Jacob: I think that's one thing I've really taken, like I need to I feel like I'm immersed in photography, but I come in and I go, no, I need to immerse myself more, whether it's doing it, reading it, talking about it.
16:08
Matt Jacob: Um, and that's something I'm I'm really appreciative of this place.
16:12
Matt Jacob: Anything else to add?
16:14
Matt Jacob: I don't know.
16:14
Andrew Aiello: Is it been are you gonna be late?
16:16
Andrew Aiello: What time is it?
16:16
Matt Jacob: Yeah, I'm gonna be late.
16:17
Matt Jacob: Um thanks for the chat, man.
16:18
Matt Jacob: And we've had lots of good chats, but uh yeah, thanks for thanks for doing us and good luck with everything.
16:23
Andrew Aiello: Thanks.
16:25
Matt Jacob: I'm here with Todd Anthony.
16:27
Matt Jacob: Uh Todd is one of the attendees with us this year.
16:30
Matt Jacob: And tell us, um, welcome.
16:32
Matt Jacob: It's good to get to know you.
16:34
Todd Antony: Yeah, exactly.
16:36
Matt Jacob: Um give us a little bit of a background about why you're here and what you're hoping to get out uh out of Chico this year.
16:42
Todd Antony: Yeah, so uh normally I'm an advertising photographer on my day-to-day uh work and then been working on personal projects you know every sort of 18 months for the last 15 or so years, trying to regain my soul from the advertising world and uh you know do work for myself rather than for someone else under their control and what they want to do.
17:04
Todd Antony: So uh yeah, and then this recently the last two years I've been working on a new personal project in Tajikistan, and that is you know sort of turning into a long-form project.
17:13
Todd Antony: And uh yeah, I just really really want to find you know people that are in the industry and of a like mind who can you know give me advice on shaping it you know into its final form basically.
17:22
Matt Jacob: What's the final form of a book?
17:24
Todd Antony: Uh book and exhibition as well, because uh some of the shots in there sort of need to be two three.
17:28
Todd Antony: Yeah, I saw them last night.
17:30
Matt Jacob: First of all, they're incredible images.
17:32
Matt Jacob: And uh I think yeah, you you to do them justice, you have to solve the.
17:36
Matt Jacob: You want to step into it.
17:39
Todd Antony: I was speaking with Misha earlier and he was like, yeah, these need to be, yeah.
17:43
Matt Jacob: Um what's what have the reviews been like so far?
17:46
Todd Antony: Like it didn't pick out maybe a couple of uh the general the general sort of thate has been overwhelmingly positive, which is good.
17:53
Todd Antony: Um and then some people are like, you know, it could be a book right now.
17:57
Todd Antony: Um but equally you could also back go back go you know go back and shoot more.
18:01
Todd Antony: Uh because that's probably one of the biggest questions I think I hear everyone here asking is uh when do we have it?
18:05
Matt Jacob: When am I done?
18:06
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
18:06
Todd Antony: Um Misha just said before, I said, like, you know, I think you're done, but but then equally he's giving me thoughts on how to de-advertise myself a little bit as well.
18:15
Todd Antony: Because I've got to get myself out of that mindset.
18:18
Todd Antony: Because I go into these shoots with a you know defined sort of list of ideas that I want to shoot.
18:23
Todd Antony: And then I let sort of serendipity and circumstance happen in between those waypoints.
18:28
Todd Antony: But the way I shoot, of course, is you know very controlled and stylised, and uh so yeah, he's just talking about trying to rough things up a little bit and uh What other avenues have you explored other than Chico view in terms of publishers or galleries?
18:42
Matt Jacob: I haven't used it.
18:43
Todd Antony: Yeah, so it's kind of a new world to you.
18:45
Todd Antony: Yeah, I've got a friend in London who's a he's a he's in the art side of things, he's a photographer, and uh yeah, we're always sort of talking about the you know completely disparate worlds basically.
18:54
Todd Antony: Uh you don't get many people that sort of straddle both um quite often because I think there's sort of a there can be a bit of a snobbery.
19:01
Matt Jacob: Definitely.
19:01
Matt Jacob: Well, you feel that from the outside.
19:03
Matt Jacob: Even when you're here, you feel like there's a little bit of like um, I don't know, maybe I'm being too harsh, but there's there's so many people here.
19:12
Matt Jacob: You gotta have your groups.
19:13
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
19:14
Matt Jacob: There's definitely a little bit of elitism with some of the reviewers, I think, and even some of the attendees, which may be maybe a bit harsh, and that's just kind of human nature.
19:23
Matt Jacob: But yeah, I understand that.
19:24
Matt Jacob: I get I I get that entirely.
19:26
Matt Jacob: But um what tell us a little bit more about the project itself, why this location, what is it about?
19:32
Todd Antony: Why the hell is I'd stun?
19:33
Todd Antony: Yeah.
19:34
Todd Antony: Uh so it sort of stems from all my projects over the last probably 15 years.
19:38
Todd Antony: Uh I've been shooting little-known groups or subcultures around the world that sort of exist outside the standard frame.
19:44
Todd Antony: Um, people that are sort of individual lead from the outside lead ordinary lives, but they're actually extraordinary in their in their own unique ways.
19:53
Todd Antony: Um, started back in 2012-ish um with a group in uh Arizona in a place called Sun City.
19:59
Todd Antony: There's uh a cheerleading group there, but they're all uh retirees, so they're all 55 to 80.
20:04
Todd Antony: And where they live is like this love child of Wes Anderson and Tim Burton that goes to get like streets lined with orange trees and cactus and everything else, um, which is possibly at the polar opposite end of the scale of the current project.
20:17
Todd Antony: Uh it was all sort of hard flash, bright colours, you know, very uh and that was my first sort of project I shot where I sort of moved from shooting landscapes to people um because landscapes were fun to shoot because you didn't have to talk to them anyway.
20:29
Todd Antony: Yeah.
20:30
Todd Antony: Yeah, easier in that respect.
20:32
Todd Antony: And they're easier to, you know, you can just go and do your thing.
20:34
Todd Antony: Um and so that was sort of my first project of that regard.
20:38
Todd Antony: And uh from there it's moved on to um Bolivia, where I shot some uh uh native Tolitas who are climbers uh and wrestlers, Literalibre wrestlers.
20:48
Todd Antony: Um so they're basically breaking the stereotypical opinion of women in that culture and society.
20:54
Todd Antony: Um, women don't climb and they certainly don't wrestle.
20:58
Todd Antony: Um and so these uh women they climb and they wrestle in their traditional Cholita clothing with their big uh big dresses and uh and bowler hats and all that sort of stuff.
21:06
Todd Antony: Um and then for that, also after that was um Sarah Leone.
21:12
Todd Antony: I was working with MBT footballers by a team called the or group of teams called the Flying Stars.
21:16
Matt Jacob: Were all of these part of assignments or were they just me?
21:19
Matt Jacob: You personal assignments.
21:20
Todd Antony: Yeah, so the the catalyst was the Sun City Plums, and then I was like, okay, yeah, I'm I'm I'm into this.
21:25
Todd Antony: Yeah.
21:27
Todd Antony: And uh and I got a bit of advertising work off the back of it as well that fitted that sort of genre as well.
21:32
Todd Antony: It was a great job I did for Finlandia vodka, where it was we just flew around the world and met ordinary drinkers.
21:37
Todd Antony: Drinking vodka.
21:38
Todd Antony: Drinking, drinking loads of vodka, drinking far too much, in fact.
21:41
Todd Antony: And uh, but yeah, that was just again ordinary people that led extraordinary lives.
21:44
Todd Antony: Like there was a gay Drake, Lutra Libra wrestler in El Paso, um ISAP fellow in New York, um, had uh the world's strongest man in Finland, and so it was just this amazing sort of list of people, then and the whole job was just there was no money in it, which for advertising.
21:59
Todd Antony: It was rare.
22:01
Todd Antony: Um but the concept was so good I was just like, yeah, hell yeah, let's do this.
22:04
Todd Antony: Um we just spent a few weeks flying around shooting portraits of these people.
22:09
Todd Antony: So it was sort of reinforced what I was doing in that regard and it was like, hey yeah, I want to do something here.
22:13
Todd Antony: Um and I just loved going to new places and experiencing new things and yeah, part of that.
22:18
Todd Antony: So the new project, long answer to your your your question, is uh on the sport of Buskashi in Tajikistan, which is like probably three, four hundred years old from the time of Genghis Khan.
22:29
Todd Antony: No one's a hundred percent sure where it started, but they think it was from him.
22:33
Todd Antony: Um and essentially you've got anywhere from like a hundred to four hundred riders on horseback uh all playing in the same game.
22:41
Todd Antony: Um, and the object is there's a a ball of sorts, which is a headless eviscerated goat.
22:47
Todd Antony: Um and they stuff it full of salt, so it's about a hundred pounds-ish of or 50 kilos odd.
22:53
Todd Antony: Um, and uh there's no teams, every man for himself.
22:57
Todd Antony: Uh so you've got like 300 riders, and there's a goat somewhere in the middle of it, and uh well most of the goat most of the goat.
23:03
Todd Antony: No, not the head, it's just the actual body.
23:05
Todd Antony: So that's why it's about 100 pounds in weight.
23:07
Todd Antony: It's like so the head gets cut off, and that's the body they use.
23:10
Todd Antony: Oh, because they've got to they've gotta be on their horse and reach down and get that off the ground or by the by the leg and sort of tuck it under them, and they've got to break free of uh you know all these other riders and and uh go down the field, which could be like three football fields long.
23:25
Todd Antony: There's not really any boundaries to the game either.
23:27
Todd Antony: So they try and play it in like riverbeds or the folds of valleys and things like that, but the but they still career up the up the hills through the crowd, crowd are scattering everywhere, you know.
23:37
Matt Jacob: It's uh and your approach with this is in a kind of a documentary type way?
23:42
Todd Antony: Sort of, yeah.
23:42
Todd Antony: I'm not really I would never call myself a documentary photographer.
23:45
Todd Antony: I sort of stand in that sort of straddled documentary and formal portraiture and yeah, because a lot of my shots are uh uh planned and staged as well.
23:55
Todd Antony: They're you know fully representative of what's going on, but it's but I'm I'm trying to get control over an environment, which in Buskashi is a bit of an oxymoron because uh there's actually a really interesting parallel between what I'm trying to do and the game itself, because the whole point of the game is trying to gain control over the goat in a sea of absolute uncontrolled mayhem.
24:14
Todd Antony: And uh the photography is me trying to gain control of that uncontrolled mayhem and a mixed at all.
24:19
Todd Antony: So it's uh it's quite an interesting parallel there.
24:21
Matt Jacob: Um what made you bring that this body of work here and not the other projects?
24:26
Todd Antony: Uh it's the first long form one I've done.
24:28
Todd Antony: Everything else has been again, it's trying to get myself out of the advertising head because I shoot advertising where you get a you know series of layouts for a campaign, it's like you we've got to go and get these three layouts.
24:38
Matt Jacob: But is that a bad thing?
24:38
Matt Jacob: I mean, is that a bad thing?
24:39
Todd Antony: Like bringing that type of works for me.
24:42
Todd Antony: Yeah.
24:42
Todd Antony: Um but what I was doing is going into you know Bolivia, spending two, three weeks there, you know, capturing my stuff, maybe coming away with 10 to 15 you know bangers, which I'm super happy with, but that's that's sort of it.
24:54
Todd Antony: Whereas this is the first time I've I've sort of done that, and then I've also you know shot around it as well.
25:00
Todd Antony: Um and got yeah, I've shot a film, motion film as well.
25:03
Todd Antony: Alright, okay, cool.
25:04
Todd Antony: I did that with with uh Flying Stars amputees too, um because you can tell like a much greater story about individuals that way.
25:10
Todd Antony: Uh yeah, so this is the first sort of long form one which would actually fit a book.
25:14
Todd Antony: Um toying with going back to some of the other places as well.
25:17
Matt Jacob: But uh what do you hope people get out of what do you hope people get out of the the project?
25:22
Matt Jacob: So if I'm going through the book, what is the intention of what you're trying to evoke or show?
25:28
Todd Antony: Yeah, it's all I've it's a weird thing where without me sort of realizing sports become like a constant theme through all almost all the projects apart from the one in Japan, which was on Decatur.
25:37
Todd Antony: Um, you're a sports fan, right?
25:38
Todd Antony: And that's my sister said to me, Oh, that's great, you're using sport as this vehicle.
25:42
Todd Antony: I was like, oh shit, yeah, yeah.
25:44
Todd Antony: It was and I used to be an athlete, and so uh yeah, I guess it's that sort of history in me.
25:50
Todd Antony: Um so I'm not so much shooting this, because I'm not a sports photographer, uh, I'm not a documentary photographer in the strictest sense.
25:56
Todd Antony: Um so I don't want to shoot, like it was cast year, I was really concerned about shooting it and it looking like it was an editorial sports thing.
26:03
Todd Antony: Um so I've had to sort of mentally work quite hard to try and pull it away from that.
26:08
Todd Antony: Um and same with all the projects really.
26:11
Todd Antony: So sport isn't so much what I'm shooting, it's the vehicle to tell the story about the people around it.
26:15
Todd Antony: So with the flying stars, it was uh you know their rehabilitation mentally and physically from you know the war.
26:22
Todd Antony: Um and uh the climbers was more about female empowerment and uh you know breaking the stereotypes around uh around you know what they do.
26:30
Todd Antony: Um Kaisi's probably the one that's probably a bit more I haven't focused on a particular person or group within that because it's so amorphous.
26:38
Todd Antony: Yeah, it's uh it's more about the the sheer spectacle of it because it is just like everyone's first reaction.
26:44
Todd Antony: And the uniqueness of it.
26:45
Todd Antony: Yeah, exactly.
26:46
Todd Antony: It's like because I'm always trying to find things people haven't seen or you know or might have, but it's only on a very low, low level.
26:52
Todd Antony: Um so with all of these, I guess it's trying to show other parts of the world, not in a sort of national geographic kind of way.
27:00
Todd Antony: Um it's just trying to show these different cultures and find that there are similarities between everything that we do.
27:07
Todd Antony: You know, it might seem Tajikistan might seem really far-flung and really, you know, off off people's radars, and they might have a a sort of opinion of what you know how it is there.
27:16
Todd Antony: But it's trying to show that there's similarities, especially in this day and age where pol you know everything's polarized to hell.
27:21
Todd Antony: Yep.
27:21
Todd Antony: Um it's trying to show our differences as much as our similarities as much as our differences are.
27:25
Todd Antony: Yeah, all these all these places I tend to, because I seem to be getting progressively going to harder and harder places places to shoot in.
27:34
Todd Antony: Um, I started off in America, it's simple, I did that myself.
27:37
Todd Antony: Um and then now I tend to get local fixes.
27:40
Todd Antony: So I sort of again treat it a bit like finding a good fixer is difficult.
27:43
Todd Antony: Yeah, I've been really lucky though in everywhere I've gone.
27:45
Todd Antony: Um you sort of that that understands photography?
27:48
Todd Antony: Yeah, well this one was a bit different.
27:50
Todd Antony: Like uh in Sierra Leone, I I found a local Australian cameraman and was like, how am I?
27:55
Todd Antony: Um do you know anyone that could help me out?
27:57
Todd Antony: And this is like oh yeah, Ma, I've got my guy, so you can you know, he he works with him, so he he knew that.
28:01
Todd Antony: Whereas Bolivia does not Bolivia, sorry, um Sajikistan doesn't have like a existing film industry structure.
28:07
Todd Antony: Um so there's no sort of benchmark for that.
28:10
Todd Antony: So I ended up getting hold of a uh a local tour company that I'd somehow stumbled across their old website online which had a section about Buskashi.
28:18
Todd Antony: And I was like, okay, this could be the the thing.
28:20
Todd Antony: So I had to get hold of them, but then I had to educate them that I didn't want to tour.
28:23
Todd Antony: I needed them to work as like a prefixer producer, so it's uh a much more focused, you know, all I want is Buskashi, basically.
28:31
Todd Antony: Uh and that would be great, yeah.
28:32
Todd Antony: So really, really helpful.
28:34
Matt Jacob: Cool.
28:34
Matt Jacob: Well, just lovely to hear about a project and good luck with the work.
28:37
Matt Jacob: Cheers, man.
28:37
Matt Jacob: Cheers, man.
28:38
Matt Jacob: There's the chat.
28:39
Matt Jacob: Hi.
28:42
Matt Jacob: Hi, we're here with Harrison Miller.
28:44
Matt Jacob: Uh Harrison first year as review.
28:49
Harrison Miller: Is that correct?
28:49
Harrison Miller: Yep.
28:50
Harrison Miller: I was an attendee in 2021, and now I'm I've raised through the ranks and I'm a reviewer.
28:54
Matt Jacob: So give us a really small synopsis of your journey since 2021.
28:59
Harrison Miller: Uh uh, came here right when I started self-publishing through Underlife Editions, but I just made a few small um things.
29:07
Harrison Miller: Um so I came here with like some like confidence in that, but then like had this whole event that kind of shattered that a little bit.
29:16
Harrison Miller: Didn't really feel like I fit fit in or anything.
29:20
Harrison Miller: Um, so is that enough of I think that makes enough sense.
29:23
Harrison Miller: We'll just leave we'll leave it for the imagination.
29:25
Harrison Miller: Um went home, had to figure out, okay, well if I'm not like doing stuff like some of these people, then like what am I doing?
29:34
Harrison Miller: And then I found more kind of solace in just the bookmaking aspect and like finding myself through the materials in the form.
29:40
Harrison Miller: And so I just started experimenting more with printing, self-printing and binding and just playing around with like kind of the simplicity of bookmaking.
29:48
Harrison Miller: And uh and uh yeah, and then so I just kept doing stuff that I liked, people liked it, and then I kept in touch.
29:56
Harrison Miller: I made relationships here through the event and um been doing design for charcoal and trespasser and like off and on.
30:04
Harrison Miller: And um yeah, and then so now I'm here.
30:08
Harrison Miller: Like uh just kind of um I think there was some people that couldn't make it, so he asked me to fill in and um yeah, it's awesome.
30:16
Matt Jacob: Massive inspiration for someone who's who may may have struggled with their first uh I still struggle.
30:21
Matt Jacob: Still struggle, and um you know it can be a real real uh deflating um events.
30:29
Harrison Miller: You hear so many things and you're not sure how to contextualize it because you you're getting like one day you get four different completely different points of view, you know, and and and um that was my experience, you know.
30:39
Harrison Miller: You'll get people who are supportive of your work and they make you feel good, but then you go meet someone who's like, I don't really care about this, and then it's just like, oh great.
30:47
Matt Jacob: Last question, because I know you've got to get to reviews.
30:49
Matt Jacob: Um uh last question.
30:51
Matt Jacob: What are you looking for?
30:52
Matt Jacob: With you when you're sat there in a across the desk from someone with their images, you've got 20 minutes.
30:56
Matt Jacob: Obviously, like we get these beautiful moments where we can talk like we're doing now, but in that formal setting, what are you looking for in people's work like in a very high-level aspect?
31:06
Harrison Miller: Intimacy, intimacy, emotion, movement, beauty, immediacy.
31:13
Harrison Miller: I want to impulsively know as soon as I see what I'm looking at that I like it without even having to think about it.
31:18
Harrison Miller: I don't want to hear the story, I don't want to hear the narrative, I don't want to read the words, I just want to know that by just touching the object I already like it.
31:26
Matt Jacob: Beautiful.
31:26
Matt Jacob: Thanks so much, Harrison.
31:27
Matt Jacob: Yeah, thank you.
31:27
Matt Jacob: Appreciate it.
31:28
Harrison Miller: That's awesome.
31:31
Matt Jacob: Okay, guys, so a little bit of a tour.
31:33
Matt Jacob: Uh, this is our room.
31:34
Matt Jacob: Look at that view.
31:35
Matt Jacob: Um, that is a reflection, but let me show you.
31:37
Matt Jacob: Show you our view here in Chico.
31:41
Matt Jacob: Um, so we're up in the upper lodge.
31:44
Matt Jacob: I'm about to walk down for my review with Brian Scooter Mat, which I've been looking forward to for a long time.
31:50
Matt Jacob: Always a little bit anxious.
31:51
Matt Jacob: I had a review with which you may or may not see.
31:55
Matt Jacob: I may keep the review for um personal reasons or for an extra bonus feature.
32:00
Matt Jacob: It was with Matthew Genitempo, and I recorded the whole thing, and it was um, I don't know, I get a I I guess I'm an emotional person, but uh I get emotional when I I meet people I respect so much and they meet me where I am, and that's what Matt did, and he's a true gent, just like all of these guys are.
32:19
Matt Jacob: Uh, just had a review with Odette England, who I'm a big fan, a big fan of as well.
32:23
Matt Jacob: She's so sweet, so humble, so so much enjoying the process herself as a as a first um Chico event for for her as well.
32:33
Matt Jacob: I mean, she's a she teaches four months of the year, so she's you know an expert reviewer, and um she's just loving the experience.
32:41
Matt Jacob: So we forget it's kind of two-way.
32:42
Matt Jacob: The reviewers love doing this, we love doing this, and um just again speaks to the nature of this event.
32:50
Matt Jacob: Anyway, um, so we've got a garden here, so this kind of leads down to as you can see the main lodge.
32:57
Matt Jacob: I won't I can't give you a full tour because it's actually quite a uh a big place, but as we walk down, we get to straight ahead.
33:05
Matt Jacob: This is basically the main lodge or the conference centre, which they have a kitchen in.
33:10
Matt Jacob: So we eat in here, we review in here.
33:12
Matt Jacob: I can't show you, you would have already seen the meals that I've taken you through.
33:17
Matt Jacob: Um I can't take you in there because people are doing reviews in there at the moment.
33:21
Matt Jacob: The weather at the moment is insane.
33:24
Matt Jacob: This is mid March, and usually it is not um 25-26 degrees Celsius, but I'm in t-shirt and jeans, and um I'm hot.
33:37
Matt Jacob: So well I'm warm and it's lovely.
33:40
Matt Jacob: It's lovely to get some sun.
33:41
Matt Jacob: So we're now walking behind the main lodge.
33:45
Matt Jacob: Behind the main lodge here is where they're doing little podcast interviews with Photoshow.
33:53
Matt Jacob: Uh Michael, who's uh who's the media guy for this year, he's uh hosting a lot of the attendees, uh, which you might see me on because I was on there yesterday uh a couple of days ago.
34:05
Matt Jacob: And now we come back to obviously a lot of rooms, admin offices, um, a lot of the the rooms where the attendees are staying are in here.
34:13
Matt Jacob: And we'll come in here, and I want to show you guys.
34:17
Matt Jacob: We've already done some conversations in the library, so you've probably seen that, but here there's no one in here.
34:30
Matt Jacob: Okay, here we have a library, which is uh very nice indeed.
34:35
Matt Jacob: Really good to a lot of people have either done photo sharing in here or obviously just some work.
34:41
Matt Jacob: As you can tell, that's a very old building and um steeped in character with photos all over the walls of previous guests, um famous people, actors, a lot of Western uh film actors, and down here just goes to rooms upon rooms.
35:00
Matt Jacob: And if we go back here just check the time because yeah, I've got to get going.
35:07
Matt Jacob: But um just show you the lobby quickly.
35:11
Matt Jacob: In here we have rooms, we have guest rooms.
35:15
Matt Jacob: No, it's a hotel, so most of it's guest rooms.
35:18
Matt Jacob: Uh I'll try and show you the hot springs later on, because that's in a separate area.
35:23
Matt Jacob: I'll try you the show you the saloon bar and this is a lobby.
35:26
Matt Jacob: So a lot of us just hang out here, do our thing, uh swap photos, talk about just photography and geek out.
35:40
Matt Jacob: So um this is kind of nice when it's cold, but as you might be able to see a lot of people hanging around outside.
35:47
Matt Jacob: So this is kind of a downtime for the place because everyone's in reviews right now.
35:55
Matt Jacob: So we just get our review times and in between those times people will obviously hang out.
36:02
Matt Jacob: Oh, we've got wine tasting today.
36:04
Matt Jacob: Oh, I'm looking forward to that.
36:05
Matt Jacob: That started already?
36:06
Matt Jacob: Um yes.
36:07
Matt Jacob: Oh yeah, okay.
36:08
Matt Jacob: I'm gonna I'm gonna come back.
36:10
Matt Jacob: I'm gonna come back and taste some wine.
36:12
Matt Jacob: Um this is obviously the gardens, or uh I don't know what you call it, the yard.
36:17
Matt Jacob: And uh straight ahead there where I'm heading now is the conference centre where we all do our reviews.
36:23
Matt Jacob: Everywhere else, pretty much.
36:25
Matt Jacob: Um uh guest rooms and um yeah, it's always a bit of a uh a daunting walk when we come up here and we enter.
36:36
Matt Jacob: I don't want to get in front of uh filming here.
36:39
Matt Jacob: So I'll give you a little peek into the waiting room.
36:44
Matt Jacob: See if we can find anyone.
36:46
Matt Jacob: People we're told to get to the waiting room about 10 minutes before.
36:52
Matt Jacob: See now it's starting to fill up with attendees as we're waiting for our reviews.
36:59
Matt Jacob: Here's Marshall.
37:00
Matt Jacob: Say hi, Marshall.
37:02
Matt Jacob: Um we've got the books obviously laid out as we can peruse through while we're waiting, but yeah, we won't go any further with this because pretty private affair.
37:14
Matt Jacob: And um that's about it.
37:18
Matt Jacob: So all of this is just to the huge conference room I've showed you before.
37:23
Matt Jacob: And that's it.
37:24
Matt Jacob: Um later on I'll show you the saloon um and the hot springs.
37:31
Matt Jacob: But for now, that's kind of a little lap of what we're seeing and experiencing every day in terms of the location.
37:38
Matt Jacob: So um hope that gives you a bit of an insight as to where we are and how it makes us feel.
37:46
Matt Jacob: Jeremy Gaumore.
37:47
Matt Jacob: Yeah, how's Chico going, buddy?
37:49
Matt Jacob: Hey, how are you?
37:50
Matt Jacob: Good.
37:50
Matt Jacob: How's Chico?
37:52
Jeremy Garamond: Uh Chico's going well.
37:53
Jeremy Garamond: That's uh very interesting.
37:54
Jeremy Garamond: Meeting a lot of super nice people, nice person, uh saying very nice work too.
37:59
Jeremy Garamond: Um and I'm happy because that's a different work than uh what I'm doing.
38:03
Jeremy Garamond: I'm a photojournalist and uh this is more artistic and fine art uh photography, which is super cool, super cool, super nice.
38:10
Jeremy Garamond: And some of them are introducing like a piece of history, I would say, uh with good sequencing, and uh I like that.
38:18
Jeremy Garamond: Yeah, honestly, it's super cool.
38:20
Matt Jacob: If you're um photojournalist uh genre and style, what do you hope to get out of this week?
38:30
Jeremy Garamond: That's a very good question because that's finally why did I came?
38:35
Jeremy Garamond: Uh and it's not only because it's in Montana, even if I'm so happy to discover Montana.
38:40
Jeremy Garamond: Uh but even if the the the reviewers or keynote speakers are mainly, I would say, fine art photographers.
38:48
Jeremy Garamond: Uh first some of them are photojournalists.
38:52
Jeremy Garamond: Yeah, uh there are three out of 37 uh Magnum photographers here.
38:56
Jeremy Garamond: Yeah.
38:57
Jeremy Garamond: Uh Caroline, uh Lindo, and Larry.
39:00
Jeremy Garamond: Uh so that's already a lot.
39:02
Jeremy Garamond: Uh and uh, you know, some that's always I think interesting having um a view and opinion of I mean kind people here, everybody's kind, so that's cool, you know.
39:15
Jeremy Garamond: And some people that are educated to photography.
39:18
Jeremy Garamond: And even if um some photographers or keynote speakers slash reviewers are you know more into fine art photography, some of them have a photojournalistic past, such as Claudine Dioy, for example, who uh presented her work this morning.
39:34
Jeremy Garamond: Uh she's a former photojournalist.
39:37
Jeremy Garamond: Yeah.
39:37
Jeremy Garamond: She was a picture editor.
39:39
Jeremy Garamond: Yeah.
39:39
Jeremy Garamond: And that's interesting to see also the process of how to go from one type of photography, I'd say, to the uh to the to the fine art photography.
39:48
Jeremy Garamond: And I'm finally convinced that putting a little bit of aesthetic and foreign art in the photography, a little bit of what?
39:55
Jeremy Garamond: A little bit of fine art and aesthetic.
39:58
Jeremy Garamond: I mean the aesthetic aesthetic in the in the photography helps to support the message you'd like to give as a photojournalist when you're showing up a photo series, you know.
40:09
Jeremy Garamond: So that's interesting, that's super interesting.
40:12
Matt Jacob: So, what's your background been up uh been up until this point in terms of photojournalism?
40:17
Jeremy Garamond: Uh that's something really new.
40:18
Jeremy Garamond: I mean, uh I'm turning 50 and uh very few times, uh too few.
40:27
Jeremy Garamond: Shit.
40:31
Jeremy Garamond: No, that's fine.
40:34
Jeremy Garamond: Um, you know, I'm I'm a former entrepreneur in uh InsureTech, so nothing to do with that.
40:40
Matt Jacob: Okay.
40:40
Jeremy Garamond: Uh then three years ago, um and I've always been into photography, I've always been photographing and love that.
40:48
Jeremy Garamond: I've always been in love with photojournalism when discovered the work of uh James Nashtree, for example, or others like that, uh, in his famous uh documentary uh video war photographer, which is I think really well done.
41:01
Jeremy Garamond: It's now more than 25 years ago.
41:03
Jeremy Garamond: Uh old and uh three years ago I get sick.
41:06
Jeremy Garamond: Um and I think was the best that could happen to me to go through that strong chemotherapy, uh, because I then realized that I was about to leave.
41:18
Jeremy Garamond: Well, we'll all leave one day, you know, but I was about to leave uh without having realizing uh all my dreams for sure, but probably the best the biggest one, which was to be a photojournalist.
41:30
Jeremy Garamond: So once all the treatments were done, uh I went to school uh well to photojournalism uh school training formation in Paris called the Anslucasque, that's the also the photo agency.
41:45
Jeremy Garamond: And um so I've been there and uh and it ended up uh by being a trainee at uh 48.
41:55
Jeremy Garamond: Uh so I was a trainee was yeah, after having been a former entrepreneur, I was uh like uh trainee to to validate uh the to validate my certificate.
42:06
Jeremy Garamond: And uh so I went to Figaro magazine, which is a famous French one, very fine, very famous and with a very good uh uh vision on photography and a very good culture, photographic culture.
42:19
Jeremy Garamond: Uh so I was there, and uh since then uh almost two years now, I'm a freelance and uh working closely with them, but also with others.
42:28
Jeremy Garamond: But I've had uh quite a lot of uh um yeah assignment from them, uh so that's cool.
42:35
Jeremy Garamond: And that's uh really on what I like, which is supporting community, nature, environment, stuff like that, social uh social uh issues.
42:42
Matt Jacob: Uh so uh so when you when you get home next week and you start to process what's just happened, what do you think you're gonna like what are the the bits you're gonna take away in terms of um what you've learned this week and how's that gonna evolve your the next chapter for you?
42:58
Jeremy Garamond: Yeah, um so I think the first time I'll do when I will arrive will be to eat fish and vegetables.
43:05
Jeremy Garamond: It has nothing to do with food food and to eat light, yeah, and drink water, yeah.
43:12
Jeremy Garamond: Yeah, uh but uh more seriously that gave me very, very good uh uh vision on the different series going on, you know, with long-term projects.
43:27
Jeremy Garamond: I have one with the hijras, the transgenders in India, for example.
43:31
Jeremy Garamond: And when I saw the Peter Peter Zugel's work uh in San Francisco, yeah um it really inspired me, you know.
43:39
Jeremy Garamond: And uh I have I've had him as a reviewer, yeah.
43:42
Jeremy Garamond: I told him uh so happy to see you because I have started a long term series with the hijras.
43:47
Jeremy Garamond: And I'm starting to explain him what the who the hijas are, and he's like I stopped you, I was there two months ago, and I'm starting a new project with the hijas, and he has a totally different uh approach.
43:59
Jeremy Garamond: Of it, I'm more in the photojournalism approach is more in uh on stage like documentary.
44:05
Jeremy Garamond: Yeah, but that was super interesting.
44:07
Jeremy Garamond: So uh that's an example, but uh that gives me it gave me a lot of insights uh on how to go through that.
44:15
Jeremy Garamond: But not only this, I mean uh I have also another project which is how to show up, you know, uh when I'm when you're asked, oh, are you doing uh analog or digital photography?
44:26
Jeremy Garamond: You know, like I mean a photography that's not uh how you shoot the photo, uh that's uh when you have the print or book or publishing uh in the end, and and and you can see something, you know.
44:36
Jeremy Garamond: So I have I have a series of photography that I'm doing uh uh with a drone.
44:40
Jeremy Garamond: Uh I know now exactly how it will end up.
44:44
Jeremy Garamond: Nice.
44:45
Jeremy Garamond: Uh but I keep it for me for the moment.
44:47
Matt Jacob: And I will present it next year, probably here.
44:48
Matt Jacob: Then next year come on the forecast and we can share it.
44:51
Jeremy Garamond: Yeah, yeah.
44:51
Jeremy Garamond: We'll do that, definitely.
44:53
Jeremy Garamond: Um and uh also, you know, having had a good discussion with Larry Thorwell uh about uh the the last uh photo series I made in Madagascar with Father Pedro, uh even if it's already uh about to be published, but I mean yeah, it helps me a lot to know how to make my photographies better uh in order to have the messages going uh better to the reader and uh make it making it a little bit more aesthetic.
45:21
Jeremy Garamond: So I make a new editing uh of it uh of those photos.
45:25
Jeremy Garamond: So I have a lot of things to do.
45:26
Jeremy Garamond: Every day I'm I'm doing a checklist to do one of those.
45:30
Matt Jacob: And you've shot a lot of projects here already, just in uh in Livingston and around uh this area.
45:35
Jeremy Garamond: Yeah, you're right.
45:36
Matt Jacob: I mean um because I meant it to give that away.
45:40
Jeremy Garamond: No, you're totally right.
45:41
Jeremy Garamond: I mean the what happens is that when I I've I've arrived a couple of days before you know to avoid uh the jet lag, uh and that's what has changed since I've learned started to learn for photojournalism, is that how to say a story with your photo.
45:56
Jeremy Garamond: Not uh, you know, that's a good picture, that one is a good picture too, the third one is a good picture too, but I mean are the three pictures all together are saying something.
46:05
Jeremy Garamond: And so I don't want to shoot just for shooting nice pictures anymore.
46:09
Jeremy Garamond: And I was at the Murray Hotel and saw that amazing train station just in front of the hotel, which at least is very noisy by night because the trains are keeping passing by.
46:18
Jeremy Garamond: And uh I thought, why is that this big train station here in this little small town?
46:26
Jeremy Garamond: Uh, and started to to question myself and also Chad GPT, because he's my best friend for that when you're getting curious, to know why um there were so many trains passing by and the relationship finally between the trains Livingstone and Yellowstone, where uh I was yesterday.
46:46
Jeremy Garamond: So I made I realized all what happened in the in the 18th centuries and uh made a photo series about that and uh and went you know I I've rented a car and I've been driving all around in the area uh uh handing yesterday in Yellowstone to see exactly why and how it happened, and I made a photo story is that.
47:05
Jeremy Garamond: Come on.
47:06
Matt Jacob: Well I look forward to seeing it.
47:07
Matt Jacob: Thanks for chatting.
47:08
Matt Jacob: Yeah, appreciate it.
47:09
Matt Jacob: Thanks very much.
47:12
Matt Jacob: Um what's the next step for you with this work based on the feedback you've had so far?
47:17
John Autry: The next step that I'm going to do is go back through my archive and see if my projects not projects, if my floating images will gel into anything with these.
47:29
John Autry: That's the first thing we're gonna do.
47:31
John Autry: Um because I have a tendency, I'll I'll shoot a day here, I'll shoot a day there, and they all just go on a drive or a stand, and I never look at them again.
47:41
Matt Jacob: Yeah, I know what you mean.
47:42
John Autry: Because they don't I'm not shooting them for any purpose other than that was cool.
47:47
John Autry: Um so I'm gonna go back and see what could potentially gel.
47:52
John Autry: Somebody do that, and I'm gonna keep shooting for these.
47:56
John Autry: I think.
47:57
John Autry: Or maybe be done.
47:59
John Autry: I think that the one You've got a lot.
48:01
John Autry: I think the one you're looking at, I have maybe 400 images, or maybe a thousand that are okay.
48:10
John Autry: And maybe I just go ahead and be done with that one if you're looking at.
48:14
John Autry: And so it's gonna make a tiny little book that's gonna be you know, it's taller than it is wide, and then have little images.
48:26
John Autry: Maybe there's titles to each in the end, just like a little bit of context, like like a plate number at the end.
48:33
John Autry: That you know lightning in X place or something, or like little tiny so maybe a word here or there in the titles could give you a little bit of context, but I'm the bad writer, so that'll be at the end.
48:47
John Autry: And then I'll put it on the shelf and nobody will see it, but I'll be able to move on.
48:51
Matt Jacob: I'll see it, man.
48:52
Matt Jacob: I love it.
48:52
Matt Jacob: Honestly, I'm not just saying that.
48:54
John Autry: I think it's I don't do social media.
48:55
John Autry: It's like like I said, I post like once a year.
48:57
John Autry: I'll I'll post for a week and nobody sees it.
49:00
John Autry: Nobody looks at it.
49:01
John Autry: I'm I'm very curious that you did, I guess, in in prepping to come here.
49:05
Matt Jacob: Um, I think uh maybe not prepping to come here.
49:08
Matt Jacob: Maybe when we when we first I can't remember how I saw your IG actually.
49:12
Matt Jacob: But yeah.
49:14
John Autry: Put it into your phone the other night.
49:15
John Autry: That's what it was.
49:16
John Autry: Uh okay.
49:16
John Autry: We all take pictures of birds, you know, almost everybody.
49:20
Matt Jacob: Yeah, but I mean, like we'll take pictures of beer birds.
49:25
Andrew Aiello: We all take pictures of the same shitty.
49:27
Matt Jacob: Yeah, because it's all around us.
49:28
Matt Jacob: That's what we Nelly Furtado said it best.
49:32
Matt Jacob: I'm like a bird, I want to fly away.
49:35
Matt Jacob: I did not expect you to quote Nelly Furtado.
49:39
Matt Jacob: But I'm glad you did.
49:40
Matt Jacob: Expect me unexpected.
49:42
Matt Jacob: Thanks for chatting, man.
49:43
Matt Jacob: Yeah, appreciate you.
49:44
Matt Jacob: Thanks for showing me your work, it's incredible.
49:45
Matt Jacob: That's fine.
49:49
Matt Jacob: That's fine.
49:49
Matt Jacob: Alright, I'm gonna go get ready.
49:51
Matt Jacob: We're going to the saloon.
49:54
Matt Jacob: Someone's car alarm's going off.
49:56
Matt Jacob: We're going to the saloon.
49:57
Matt Jacob: And I need to go and get my stuff back to the room.
50:00
Matt Jacob: Find the wife.
50:02
Matt Jacob: I don't know where she is.
50:03
Matt Jacob: And head over to the saloon.
50:07
Matt Jacob: We're having I guess last well, it's not the last night, but we're going to the famous saloon restaurant.
50:13
Matt Jacob: Everyone, like a hundred people, however many of us, including reviewers and speakers.
50:19
Matt Jacob: And uh have some drinkers, have some food, have some fun.
50:22
Matt Jacob: So um the sun's out, everyone's happy, everyone's exhausted because it's even in my last review with Claudine, she's amazing, but um, I just I just wasn't in it.
50:37
Matt Jacob: I just was mentally fatigued and uh I feel a little bit guilty about it.
50:43
Matt Jacob: Just tired and tired of talking about my images, tired of trying to listen to differing opinions um while still respecting them, taking them in, writing them down, going back through them, answering questions, all in the space of 20 minutes.
51:01
Matt Jacob: It feels so much longer and so much kind of more intense, I guess.
51:08
Matt Jacob: So um yeah.
51:09
Matt Jacob: Alright, I'm gonna go get ready and uh we see you at the soon.
51:13
Matt Jacob: Wow, look at the moon.
51:22
Odette England: It's so you see, that's what you really should be watching.
51:28
Odette England: Yeah, they don't know.
51:29
Odette England: Him and the moon.
51:30
Matt Jacob: Well we're watching Odette England at the moment, so uh thank you, thank you.
51:34
Matt Jacob: Uh so Odette reviewed me today, and uh what a wonderful experience.
51:38
Matt Jacob: A huge fan, so definitely some kind of a little bit of Starstruck this afternoon, but we got through it.
51:44
Matt Jacob: We got through it.
51:45
Matt Jacob: Um Odette's first Chico review.
51:47
Matt Jacob: Yes.
51:48
Matt Jacob: How's it going?
51:48
Odette England: Yes, tell us about the experience.
51:50
Odette England: Oh my goodness.
51:51
Odette England: It's it's it's photocamped.
51:54
Odette England: And it's photocamped on an extreme level.
51:56
Odette England: And everyone is so friendly and so giving, and the best thing about being here is that if I can give one piece of advice or guidance to folk that's special in some way, that just makes my day.
52:15
Matt Jacob: Give me an example.
52:16
Matt Jacob: Otherwise, so who do you think you've helped that like really kind of have any breakfast?
52:21
Odette England: I have no clue.
52:22
Matt Jacob: Other than me, but any do you think any like breakthrough moments this week for people?
52:26
Odette England: It's just you know what?
52:27
Odette England: It's not even if they've said it, it's that their their eyes change.
52:31
Odette England: And the best thing that you can experience with another human being is when they say something to you or you say something to them, and there's this expression that comes on their face, and you think, oh my goodness.
52:44
Matt Jacob: I definitely had that today.
52:45
Matt Jacob: Oh, Deb gave me a couple of points of like, oh my god, I didn't think about that.
52:51
Matt Jacob: Thank you.
52:52
Odette England: I've had this every single day I've been here, and I've done like I do eight reviews, and then you do a little extra, and then you do a little more because you can't stop looking at beautiful pictures.
53:02
Matt Jacob: Which I think that's one thing I've really enjoyed from this side of the fence uh about this week is the in-between moments.
53:08
Matt Jacob: The reviews are obviously great, but they're like a little bit rushed, a little bit forced.
53:12
Matt Jacob: But when you get a reviewer to the side and have a bit more of an organic experience, it's it's so much more natural.
53:19
Odette England: It feels like a conversation between two people who met at a bookstore or met on the street, and you're like, so what are you doing?
53:24
Odette England: And they're a bit like Evan and Bob and all these other people, Stuart, all these people.
53:28
Odette England: Love Evan and Bob.
53:29
Odette England: And I'd be like, Evan, so I had this thought about your pictures because I'm a slow thinker and a slow processor.
53:37
Odette England: This will happen tomorrow.
53:38
Odette England: I'll be like, wait, there was this thing that I should have told you.
53:41
Odette England: Oh, please tell me.
53:42
Odette England: So I hope all of these people like email me or I can email them together.
53:46
Odette England: I'm so sorry.
53:48
Odette England: Can I add this extra thing that I've been thinking about?
53:50
Odette England: Your title, I've been thinking about that third picture with the horse.
53:53
Odette England: I've been thinking about the horses.
53:55
Matt Jacob: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
53:56
Odette England: You see?
53:56
Odette England: See, I hold them.
53:58
Matt Jacob: I love this lady.
53:59
Matt Jacob: Um, on that note, on a purely selfish note, if I wanted to um, which I'm going to do with most of the review, all of the reviews if they let me, without like there's always this, I don't want to hound you, I don't want to bother you, because you're extremely busy, extremely successful photographers.
54:14
Matt Jacob: If I want to then with any of these reviewers, like reach out, do how would you suggest one does that in terms of like send a PDF?
54:22
Matt Jacob: These are the corrections I made, what do you think?
54:24
Matt Jacob: Kind of thing.
54:25
Odette England: I think the best thing you could possibly do is to be very brave and say, I met you at this event.
54:31
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
54:31
Odette England: I loved what you had to say about this image or this selection or whatever.
54:35
Odette England: May I send you something to look at in your time.
54:39
Matt Jacob: Okay.
54:40
Odette England: And then that way you're relieved of the pressure of having to say, here's a PDF and here's all the things I want to know.
54:44
Odette England: And also they're relieved of the pressure of going, oh, I have to respond immediately.
54:48
Matt Jacob: That makes sense.
54:49
Odette England: And then it's just it's a permission thing.
54:51
Odette England: You're talking to another person.
54:52
Odette England: I think we forget in this whole we're all we are just people.
54:57
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
54:57
Matt Jacob: We all shit, we all breathe.
54:59
Odette England: We all eat, we all do the same thing.
55:01
Odette England: We are all busy, but we are no more important than the person we're standing next to.
55:05
Odette England: You know?
55:06
Speaker 19: Like you're more important than me.
55:09
Odette England: Absolutely not.
55:10
Odette England: I've got amazing.
55:11
Odette England: I'm just stupider than you.
55:13
Odette England: And I have a dumber laugh.
55:15
Matt Jacob: The first time I saw The Long Shadow, I was moved to tears.
55:18
Matt Jacob: So I think um and the new book to be developed, to be continued.
55:23
Matt Jacob: Can you tell us anything about it?
55:25
Odette England: Or well, hang on, which one?
55:28
Matt Jacob: X.
55:29
Odette England: Oh, the isn't X beautiful?
55:31
Odette England: It's my first novella.
55:33
Odette England: I've never written a 26,000-word novella and then.
55:36
Odette England: 26,000 words.
55:37
Odette England: 26,000 words.
55:38
Odette England: Yeah, you can tell I have a lot of words.
55:40
Odette England: A lot of things to say.
55:41
Odette England: But it's it's it's it's a book that's all about the relationship between the letter X and photography.
55:49
Odette England: And it's built on a foundation of autobiography.
55:52
Odette England: Where I grew up, what I did.
55:53
Odette England: Where did you grow up?
55:54
Odette England: I grew up in Southern Australia.
55:56
Odette England: Very, very rural, very remote.
55:58
Odette England: No televisions, no, you know, bitchumen roads, no shops, none of that.
56:02
Odette England: Um I love it because it feels very sincere.
56:07
Odette England: What the book?
56:09
Odette England: The book feels very sincere.
56:10
Odette England: Yeah, it looks very good.
56:11
Odette England: The process of writing is really fun.
56:12
Odette England: I love to write.
56:13
Odette England: Is it out?
56:14
Odette England: It's out now.
56:14
Odette England: It's out, it's out, it's just awkward that I don't have it.
56:17
Odette England: It's it no, it's just been launched and it's it's pre-order.
56:22
Matt Jacob: Okay, alright.
56:22
Odette England: Like you can order it and it will be in the United States on in, I feel like, next month.
56:28
Matt Jacob: Next month.
56:28
Matt Jacob: So by the time this comes out, okay.
56:31
Odette England: Yes, but it's elsewhere in the world.
56:32
Odette England: It's already available in the UK, Europe, Australia.
56:34
Matt Jacob: Cool.
56:35
Odette England: Isn't X Beautiful.
56:36
Matt Jacob: I'm gonna get it.
56:36
Matt Jacob: Thank you so much.
56:38
Matt Jacob: You're so welcome.
56:39
Matt Jacob: Thank you.
56:39
Matt Jacob: I'm here with what's your last name, Hadley?
56:44
Hadley Rosenbaum: Rosenbaum.
56:45
Matt Jacob: Rosenbaum.
56:46
Hadley Rosenbaum: Yeah.
56:46
Matt Jacob: Hadley Rosenbaum, attendee of the year.
56:51
Hadley Rosenbaum: That's not true.
56:54
Matt Jacob: We we uh we met on the bus.
56:56
Hadley Rosenbaum: That's right.
56:57
Matt Jacob: Yeah, and we haven't actually talked properly about your work since, so tell tell us everything about it.
57:03
Matt Jacob: Who's us Us, everyone, what or the eight people watching.
57:08
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um my god, is this live?
57:09
Matt Jacob: Well, it's not live, no, right, but it's gonna be it's gonna be price.
57:13
Matt Jacob: It depends what you say.
57:14
Hadley Rosenbaum: Okay, wow.
57:15
Matt Jacob: Tell uh tell us um what brought you here and give us an insight as to the the work that you've been presenting.
57:20
Hadley Rosenbaum: Okay.
57:21
Hadley Rosenbaum: Excuse me, so sorry, I had to hear that.
57:24
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um what brought me here?
57:26
Hadley Rosenbaum: I've been working on a body of work since last June on and off.
57:29
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um after my grandma passed, and she's a national treasurer.
57:33
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um it was based off of um a book that I found in her house, a Giacomedi book, um, and a a large uh archive of her of photos that she took of her Chinese antiques.
57:48
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um I don't know why I'm looking here instead of at you, but anyway, this feels okay.
57:52
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um sorry.
57:56
Hadley Rosenbaum: Oh look, I'm lit oh, it's it's gone.
57:59
Hadley Rosenbaum: I was lit up.
58:00
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um ADD.
58:01
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um and so I brought all of those materials to a bookmaking workshop at CPW with Ray.
58:10
Matt Jacob: Oh, okay.
58:12
Hadley Rosenbaum: And I started this project, and I it was just gonna be of my grandmother's photos and my family archive.
58:19
Hadley Rosenbaum: But then we were like, actually, wouldn't it be so sick if we put we put like my a photo, an archive of mine that is idiosyncratic to me, paired with your grandma's archive, my grandma's archive.
58:31
Hadley Rosenbaum: What is that grammar?
58:32
Matt Jacob: And so This was with you, you and Ray talking about this, okay?
58:35
Hadley Rosenbaum: Yeah, so I chose high heels slash feet because that seems to be the thing that I like to photograph the most.
58:40
Matt Jacob: I was gonna ask you about that appearing a lot.
58:43
Hadley Rosenbaum: I just I literally I went back home that night and I looked through my archive and I was like, oh shit, like I like feet.
58:52
Matt Jacob: In not in a fetish kind of way.
58:54
Matt Jacob: In a fetish.
58:55
Hadley Rosenbaum: In a fetish kind of way, yeah.
58:56
Hadley Rosenbaum: Almost exclusively in a fetishistic kind of way.
59:00
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um and I was all for it.
59:03
Hadley Rosenbaum: I'm like, because I do a lot of fashion shoots.
59:06
Matt Jacob: Okay, okay.
59:06
Hadley Rosenbaum: It is kind of the thing where you have to highlight the shoe.
59:09
Hadley Rosenbaum: Like there, it's and because it gets boring if you're just doing a full body check or a full portrait.
59:14
Hadley Rosenbaum: Like there has to be other interesting elements, and a lot of the models or actresses, whatever, they wear cool heels.
59:20
Matt Jacob: Yep.
59:21
Hadley Rosenbaum: So I made it my mission to like it, it was just it was kind of a no-brainer.
59:24
Hadley Rosenbaum: So that's what I'm saying.
59:25
Matt Jacob: Fragments it a little bit.
59:26
Hadley Rosenbaum: Yeah.
59:26
Hadley Rosenbaum: And once I started putting them on the page, like the Jacomedi bug, it kind of like became this energetic thing, this dialogue between these two disparate archives that became in c in this weird conversation with each other.
59:41
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um, and since then I've been working on like different material um interferences and like using all different types of paper and printing techniques and um building this book up like big time.
59:56
Hadley Rosenbaum: Like really, like I I I would try to finish like four pages a week.
1:00:01
Hadley Rosenbaum: Oh my goodness.
1:00:02
Hadley Rosenbaum: And go into the studio every day because because some of them, like, an idea would just fall out of me, but others like you'd have to print one photo five different ways to see how it looked best.
1:00:14
Hadley Rosenbaum: So it unlocked, it kind of like dismantled my perfectionism because I'm like, there's no one right way to print this photo, therefore, there's many ways.
1:00:26
Matt Jacob: Can you give me an example?
1:00:27
Hadley Rosenbaum: Yeah, like I feel like I had there were a few things that I was working with.
1:00:32
Hadley Rosenbaum: I had a few different colored index cards.
1:00:36
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um, I had like 8.5 by 11 translucent film, um, newspaper, matte, glossy, um, and then um luster four by six.
1:00:49
Matt Jacob: Self-print or self-print.
1:00:50
Hadley Rosenbaum: I'm doing it all by myself.
1:00:51
Matt Jacob: Okay.
1:00:52
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um, so like I would print one on transparency, one on a tiny index card, one like on an 11 by 17 sheet, and then like test it out with all different shapes, sizes, elements.
1:01:03
Hadley Rosenbaum: So like it was kind of like a chemistry lab, yeah.
1:01:05
Hadley Rosenbaum: Like every day, just going in, and wow it it made me feel so close to my grandmom.
1:01:10
Hadley Rosenbaum: Like, like we were like jamming together, and I felt like her her presence there.
1:01:16
Hadley Rosenbaum: It was it was just her presence was present.
1:01:18
Matt Jacob: What's the name of the project?
1:01:19
Hadley Rosenbaum: Uh Heels and Rarities.
1:01:21
Matt Jacob: Heels and Rarities.
1:01:22
Matt Jacob: And what's the well, okay, what the what have the reviews been like so far?
1:01:26
Matt Jacob: But what do you hope is next with this?
1:01:30
Hadley Rosenbaum: The reviews have been baller.
1:01:32
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um, everyone loves it.
1:01:34
Hadley Rosenbaum: They're like, they're yeah, you heard it here first.
1:01:40
Matt Jacob: I told you, the attendee of the attendee of the week.
1:01:43
Hadley Rosenbaum: I just don't think they know what to do with it because it's so colorful.
1:01:47
Matt Jacob: They're just like, yeah.
1:01:48
Hadley Rosenbaum: Yeah, it's great.
1:01:50
Hadley Rosenbaum: Yeah.
1:01:50
Hadley Rosenbaum: No, I mean I my I came here with like a fully formed idea and a book, like ready to go.
1:01:55
Hadley Rosenbaum: So I really wanted people to help me make it.
1:01:59
Matt Jacob: Okay.
1:01:59
Hadley Rosenbaum: Like my goal in the meetings is like designer or publisher?
1:02:02
Hadley Rosenbaum: I need a publisher.
1:02:03
Hadley Rosenbaum: Okay.
1:02:04
Hadley Rosenbaum: I designed it already.
1:02:05
Matt Jacob: Okay.
1:02:05
Matt Jacob: I think I saw the book.
1:02:07
Matt Jacob: I just saw your prints.
1:02:08
Hadley Rosenbaum: Yeah, the whole book is there.
1:02:11
Matt Jacob: Okay, sorry.
1:02:12
Hadley Rosenbaum: You can see it tomorrow.
1:02:13
Matt Jacob: I apologize.
1:02:16
Hadley Rosenbaum: So yeah, I uh do you think you're gonna achieve your goal?
1:02:20
Matt Jacob: Like in terms of finding a publisher.
1:02:21
Hadley Rosenbaum: Yeah.
1:02:22
Hadley Rosenbaum: Look at this confidence.
1:02:23
Hadley Rosenbaum: Literally, what else would I be doing here except calling list of publishers to email?
1:02:27
Hadley Rosenbaum: And once they see the work, like what my brain it.
1:02:31
Hadley Rosenbaum: Yeah, no.
1:02:31
Matt Jacob: Do you have a top uh number one publisher you're after?
1:02:34
Hadley Rosenbaum: I'm not gonna say that on here.
1:02:36
Matt Jacob: Damn it.
1:02:38
Hadley Rosenbaum: You'd you'd all need to sign an NDA.
1:02:41
Matt Jacob: Um around that kind of number one goal, uh materialistic goal, I I guess, what else have you taken from this week?
1:02:52
Hadley Rosenbaum: That I'm an artist.
1:02:53
Hadley Rosenbaum: Like not just a photographer, but I am an artiste.
1:02:58
Matt Jacob: I don't I mean yeah, we could have told you that.
1:03:01
Hadley Rosenbaum: And I already knew that, but being in a it's interesting, I I chose to go to an MFA program that was interdisciplinary studio practice, so not just a photography program, and I feel like during my time I had a lot of regrets about that because I didn't get to just like lean into the technical or the history.
1:03:20
Hadley Rosenbaum: Like I was studying a lot of theory in art history, yeah, and it really shaped my worldview and and my practice.
1:03:27
Hadley Rosenbaum: And in hindsight, I can look back and feel so grateful for that.
1:03:32
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um, and I feel like I carry that with me here because I feel like I'm looking at the work from an art perspective and not just a photography perspective.
1:03:42
Hadley Rosenbaum: And so I feel like one year plus out of school is like the first time that I can be like, oh yeah, like this is one arm of my practice, and like it's serving me in this capacity, and this project is like the most healing, amazing thing to do post-grad, post like mourning my grandma.
1:03:59
Hadley Rosenbaum: And then like I think I could take like a little thread from whatever this is and maybe make a film about it, or like make a sculpture or an installation, and so I feel like I'm it's affirming for me that it's being mirrored back to me through all of the reviews that like I'm an artist, like I'm a multidisciplinary artist.
1:04:16
Matt Jacob: What's your definition of art?
1:04:18
Hadley Rosenbaum: Of art.
1:04:18
Hadley Rosenbaum: Uh for me, I at one point I thought it was to provoke.
1:04:28
Hadley Rosenbaum: Um but I'm not really being provocative.
1:04:33
Hadley Rosenbaum: I mean, I'm being provocative in a cheeky way with this book.
1:04:36
Hadley Rosenbaum: But it's not it's not a political statement.
1:04:39
Matt Jacob: You're being provocative with the curiosity of the viewer and um the the emotive aspect of it.
1:04:45
Matt Jacob: Certainly the sentimental aspect of your connections.
1:04:49
Hadley Rosenbaum: Yeah, I do I do tend to think that art is trying to provoke emotion, and I think that a successful piece of art is something that changes your emotional landscape when you're looking at it.
1:04:59
Hadley Rosenbaum: And it doesn't mean you have to like it.
1:05:00
Hadley Rosenbaum: Like I think if you hate something that is equally as important and interesting, and if something disgusts you, then I think that's really cool.
1:05:07
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
1:05:08
Matt Jacob: I hate it.
1:05:08
Matt Jacob: Okay.
1:05:11
Hadley Rosenbaum: All right.
1:05:11
Matt Jacob: Go check it out.
1:05:12
Matt Jacob: Go check it out.
1:05:13
Matt Jacob: It's unbelievable work.
1:05:14
Matt Jacob: Adley, thanks so much.
1:05:16
Hadley Rosenbaum: Thank you so much.
1:05:16
Hadley Rosenbaum: You too.
1:05:19
Matt Jacob: Bye, bye.
1:05:20
Matt Jacob: Good morning, everyone.
1:05:29
Matt Jacob: We are at 6 30 a.m.
1:05:32
Matt Jacob: Last day of GK Review 2026.
1:05:36
Matt Jacob: And sorry I didn't give a kind of bedtime review, but um yesterday was great.
1:05:43
Matt Jacob: You think you you know something?
1:05:47
Matt Jacob: Know you yourself, or know your own work.
1:05:50
Matt Jacob: And then you have a couple of reviewers who are completely different.
1:05:56
Matt Jacob: You had never thought of before, whether that's with single images or sequences or just the body of work in general.
1:06:06
Matt Jacob: And um gave me so much more food for thought.
1:06:10
Matt Jacob: I loved my reviews with Odette and Brian and Claudine.
1:06:15
Matt Jacob: Claudine was a little bit rushed because um I was exhausted.
1:06:20
Matt Jacob: I was really, really exhausted, especially after my Brian, um, which threw a lot of curveballs my way in it in a good sense.
1:06:27
Matt Jacob: I I value his um feedback and and hopefully I could call friendship, but that his the way he I'm waxing lyrical about this guy, but he you know uh they're they're all they're all just such wonderful humans, certainly the the people I've engaged with here on on this review.
1:06:50
Matt Jacob: And Brian Brian, I know really cares, and that makes a huge difference.
1:06:56
Matt Jacob: And yes, we've met before, and yes, we've done I've done his workshops before, and um we get along, but he he just cares about everyone, and he cares so much about the work and trying to get to the root truth or root um potential, reach people to get people to reach their potential.
1:07:19
Matt Jacob: That's what I'm trying to say.
1:07:20
Matt Jacob: Sorry, it's a bit early here.
1:07:21
Matt Jacob: Um, so yeah, I I I can't say enough good things about Brian and and Odette and Harrison and Jesse and Matt and all of the reviewers here that I've come to contact with, and hopefully today I will be coming into contact with some even more incredible artists.
1:07:40
Matt Jacob: So um today I've got um Mietcha Komeneck and Jonathan Levitt.
1:07:47
Matt Jacob: So I'm both pretty different to what I normally shoot and my style of work, so it's gonna be really interesting.
1:07:54
Matt Jacob: But for now, I've come down here to get some hot water for coffee because if I had one feedback of this place, the coffee is dire.
1:08:04
Matt Jacob: So we usually have to go to the gift shop to get a double espresso.
1:08:07
Matt Jacob: But today I'm just gonna get some hot water and make some of our own coffee from House of Yure.
1:08:13
Matt Jacob: A little plug, go check it out.
1:08:15
Matt Jacob: Okay, see you later.
1:08:16
Matt Jacob: So while I'm here, um let me show you the the outside of the Chico Saloon Bar.
1:08:22
Matt Jacob: This is kind of where everyone hangs out each evening after dinner.
1:08:27
Matt Jacob: Um, apart from last night, obviously, where we went to the old saloon bar about five minutes down the road.
1:08:35
Matt Jacob: But uh 6:30 in the morning, so I can't take you in there, but I'll take you in there tonight.
1:08:39
Matt Jacob: It's such a cool bar.
1:08:41
Matt Jacob: Um, it's where we did karaoke, where everyone just hangs out, drinks, plays shuffleboard, and uh gets to know each other, which has been, you know, the social fulcrum of the event really in the evening.
1:08:56
Matt Jacob: So um people can get a little bit looser, have their beers, and uh get to know each other.
1:09:02
Matt Jacob: So um it's been such an important facet of this week, and um, watching people make bonds, as well as myself making a few um bonds has been, you know, it's what life is all about, isn't it?
1:09:16
Matt Jacob: At the end of the day, often we can come to these places and take things so seriously, take ourselves extremely seriously, and um you know, at the end of the day, we're just looking for connection, morning.
1:09:30
Matt Jacob: Just looking for connection to be understood, to be seen, to be validated, the usual kind of human experience, desires, and uh that's what this is just a microcosm of that, really, isn't it?
1:09:46
Matt Jacob: Whether you're showing the work or speaking to another human being.
1:09:49
Matt Jacob: So, yeah, here we go.
1:09:51
Matt Jacob: That's it.
1:09:52
Matt Jacob: Um, I will try and take you through what else have I got to show you?
1:09:56
Matt Jacob: Um take you to the gift shop, take you a little bit down the road a little bit if I have time later, take you to the bar and the hot springs, and then we're pretty much done.
1:10:04
Matt Jacob: I mean, it's that's it.
1:10:05
Matt Jacob: That's that's Chico.
1:10:06
Matt Jacob: Um, I've wanted to come here for many years, didn't feel like I was in the right place either mentally or artistically.
1:10:16
Matt Jacob: And uh financially, we we mustn't forget we you have to pay quite a bit of money to come here, um, which is which is obviously like a limiting factor for so many people.
1:10:27
Matt Jacob: That's why they offer scholars.
1:10:29
Matt Jacob: We spoke to a few of them.
1:10:31
Matt Jacob: Uh, did we speak to a few of them?
1:10:33
Matt Jacob: We spoke to Hannah, but um the battery ran out as soon as we started talking, and um we spoke to Tony, and I'm gonna try and speak to Aaron, um, who's another uh scholar.
1:10:47
Matt Jacob: But yeah, that's why they they have these scholarships because they understand it is expensive.
1:10:52
Matt Jacob: But when you do an event like this and you've got to pay um some amount of money to these expert reviewers to draw people in and to give people the best advice, best experience, best relationships possible, then of course you've got to charge.
1:11:07
Matt Jacob: I have absolutely no problem with that.
1:11:10
Matt Jacob: Um and also it does filter out people who may not be as serious as the ones who are willing to save for a few years.
1:11:18
Matt Jacob: And for us, you know, we're coming from Bali, so it's um a long way, it's very expensive, and you know, even little things like not coming directly here so we wouldn't be jet lagged.
1:11:33
Matt Jacob: We came a week early just to try and get on the time zone, and I'm so glad we did.
1:11:38
Matt Jacob: But obviously, that's hotels, more internal flights, more time that we could be spent, um, you know, more opportunity cost.
1:11:47
Matt Jacob: So, not that I'm playing the violin at all, I'm extremely fortunate to be in a position to do this, but I've been wanting to come here for um you know a long time, and I'm extremely, extremely grateful, and uh it's been a place, an event where I felt like I've had some level of belonging, which is ironic because my project is a lot about displacement, fragmentation, lack of identity, lack of belonging.
1:12:18
Matt Jacob: Um throwing some cliche words out there, but essentially it's around those kind of emotional states.
1:12:25
Matt Jacob: And um this has made me feel like there's a family here, there's people, undoubtedly, there's people that just get me, which is you know such a nice, such a liberating and fulfilling experience, and that's what I'm grateful for the most.
1:12:46
Matt Jacob: And we'll see where this work goes.
1:12:47
Matt Jacob: There's I've got a good core of work, and one thing that Brian said to me last night, uh, sorry, yesterday afternoon, because he knows my work because I've shown it to him before a few times, and he said, You don't need to go out and shoot more.
1:13:05
Matt Jacob: Um and I will listen to his advice more than any other reviewers with uh um in with respect to that specific topic because they haven't seen my other work, they haven't seen previous stuff, um, they haven't seen my archive.
1:13:23
Matt Jacob: Whereas Brian's seen a lot of that, and he just said, Look, you don't just dedicate an hour every day to going through your archive, dedicate an hour every day to looking at the way you might be able to edit or cut or affect your previous work, um, where you still had the same soul to it, but to make something that's cohesive but especially grounded, um, because you know this is the struggle I've been having whether today in this dream like space work, we'll ground it a little bit more.
1:14:08
Matt Jacob: And um that's the advice that Brian gave me, and I'm very grateful for that.
1:14:14
Matt Jacob: So when I go home, um it would take one or two weeks to just sit and process this and figure out just pass out like what everyone said, what I want to listen to, what I feel aligns true, and then kind of think about steps forward.
1:14:34
Matt Jacob: I'll definitely be reaching out to people like Odette, Brian, of course, Matt, uh, Shana, who was so wonderful, gave me some really great insights.
1:14:45
Matt Jacob: Tim, all of these just incredible people um who are so kind to give potentially extra time around this week.
1:14:56
Matt Jacob: And um, yeah, I'll definitely not be taking advantage of that, but I'll definitely be taking them up on that offer and seeing how I can galvanize this this body of work a little bit better.
1:15:10
Matt Jacob: So um this is more this is kind of like my morning journal.
1:15:14
Matt Jacob: Instead of writing it down, I'm talking to you guys.
1:15:15
Matt Jacob: So I hope I'm not boring you and I hope I'm showing you some beautiful landscapes.
1:15:20
Matt Jacob: I mean, it really is just can't really do it justice on this wide angle I'm shooting on this little um DJI Osmo Pocket 3, which has been game-changing really this week because it's so light, so small, we can just whip it out and whip it out.
1:15:36
Matt Jacob: I can just get it out and just shoot immediately with uh with the mic.
1:15:42
Matt Jacob: But um, yeah, I hope I hope you you're kind of seeing how beautiful this place is, which adds to the experience, of course.
1:15:49
Matt Jacob: If we were in a if we were in a big city and um and it was of course if we were in a big city and it was much more um protracted, uh it just wouldn't have the same it wouldn't have the same vibes.
1:16:22
Matt Jacob: And when I was speaking to Jesse, um he said, Look, location is just one of the most important things.
1:16:28
Matt Jacob: It sets the tone, makes people feel comfortable, feel welcome.
1:16:31
Matt Jacob: And those things that you those unseeables, those untangibles, those you know, tacit kind of factors that go into a week like this, um are so, so important.
1:16:45
Matt Jacob: And I'm not sure if I'm not sure if um many people really kind of think about those things.
1:16:54
Matt Jacob: But I guess, you know, being the 10th year, Jesse has worked hard to iterate on those one percenters every year, and I love that approach.
1:17:04
Matt Jacob: I I try and do that in everything I do.
1:17:07
Matt Jacob: Um, it takes time, takes work, but when you get to 10 years down the line and you've created something that affects so many people's lives, doesn't really make much money, but it provides so much meaning, purpose, fulfillment, um, progress, happiness, joy, sadness, everything that you know, putting your work and your your soul and your heart on the line every day to essentially strangers who you respect and look up to so much and value their opinion, that is uh that that has been uh uh cultivated over so long, and you you have to give marks to Jesse for that.
1:17:50
Matt Jacob: So if you're watching this, Jesse, thank you very much.
1:17:53
Matt Jacob: Um I look forward to such a busy man.
1:17:56
Matt Jacob: I've been trying to get him all week really for a review because he's not on my list, unfortunately, but I'm going to try and corner him this morning, maybe during one of the talks, which is a shame, but I think that's the only time he's available.
1:18:11
Matt Jacob: I think that's the only time he's standing still, is when we're listening to uh another photographer for an hour talk about their work.
1:18:18
Matt Jacob: So I'm gonna try and do that, watch this space, and I'm going to try and make the most out of this day because I don't want to get home next week and regret anything, or regret not asking any questions, or regret not getting any feedback, or regret not talking to someone I hadn't spoken to yet, um, whether they're attendees or reviewers.
1:18:38
Matt Jacob: So um what I did realise is so many people here, I I can't I can't get around and get to know everyone.
1:18:44
Matt Jacob: It's impossible.
1:18:44
Matt Jacob: So I realised that after like day two and um put kind of a little bit less pressure on myself, but uh yeah.
1:18:52
Matt Jacob: I'm just waffling now, guys.
1:18:54
Matt Jacob: But I hope you're hope you're there, hope you're listening.
1:18:56
Matt Jacob: And um I want to thank you for all your support.
1:18:58
Matt Jacob: I want to thank you for being there for me, sending messages that you do.
1:19:03
Matt Jacob: Um I hope this episode, not that we finished the episode yet, but I hope this episode has provided a really valuable insight into the world of fine art photography and photo book world.
1:19:13
Matt Jacob: Uh, it's a world that I want to dive into deeper.
1:19:16
Matt Jacob: I'm already kind of like in an exploratory phase with it and um loving every minute of it.
1:19:24
Matt Jacob: And uh, you know, I wish I knew about this part of the photography world even two years ago.
1:19:32
Matt Jacob: I mean, no, maybe maybe more.
1:19:34
Matt Jacob: Three, four, five years ago is when I started taking photography a lot more seriously.
1:19:38
Matt Jacob: So I'm here now.
1:19:40
Matt Jacob: I'm really glad I made it.
1:19:41
Matt Jacob: I know everyone here, it's pretty much changed the trajectory of their photography life, um, if not their life itself, and just in five short days.
1:19:49
Matt Jacob: Five long, but five days.
1:19:51
Matt Jacob: Alright, it's coffee time, and uh I'm I can hear Fee screaming through the window to make her coffee.
1:20:01
Matt Jacob: Speak to you later.
1:20:03
Matt Jacob: Well, I was just gonna ask you about like this is your first Tico review, right?
1:20:08
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
1:20:08
Matt Jacob: So I was just literally gonna ask you how your experience has been.
1:20:12
Matt Jacob: I mean, you obviously do other reviews and have done many other reviews as well as education, but how's this experience been for you as a reviewer?
1:20:21
Matt Jacob: You know, coming from the other side of the world essentially.
1:20:24
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Yeah, I mean it it it's good that people meet here um to talk photography.
1:20:31
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: I've never done something like this, but I've done reviews before.
1:20:35
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: So this is quite a different experience that people gather for some time and speak photography.
1:20:42
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Doesn't feel competitive.
1:20:44
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Learn from each other.
1:20:46
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
1:20:46
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
1:20:47
Matt Jacob: What do you what do you look for when you're sat across the table from an attendee and they're presenting their work like I've just done with you?
1:20:54
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: I don't know, I just prefer to listen more to attendees.
1:20:58
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Um because you know when you're listening to them, you get where they're trying to go and maybe what's their struggle and how you can assist in terms of giving shape to what they're trying to develop.
1:21:14
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Yeah.
1:21:15
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
1:21:15
Matt Jacob: Well, thank you for being here.
1:21:17
Matt Jacob: Your talk the other day was you had everyone in tears, in including yourself.
1:21:23
Matt Jacob: It was extremely, extremely moving.
1:21:24
Matt Jacob: And I think I saw some stuff I had not seen of yours before.
1:21:28
Matt Jacob: So um, yeah, I just want to say thank you for for presenting that incredible work.
1:21:33
Matt Jacob: And what's what's next for you when you go home?
1:21:36
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Uh continuing with trees, the family trees.
1:21:39
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Yeah.
1:21:39
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: So that's what I've been busy with.
1:21:41
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Yeah.
1:21:41
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Uh, because it's still an ongoing work.
1:21:44
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Um, working with my family, traveling back to my ancestral land.
1:21:50
Matt Jacob: Did Magnum keep you busy?
1:21:51
Matt Jacob: Like, do they give you a lot of assignments and stuff?
1:21:54
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
1:21:55
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Yeah.
1:21:55
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: But I've been working more on my own personal work.
1:21:59
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Yeah.
1:22:00
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Yeah.
1:22:01
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: All right.
1:22:01
Matt Jacob: Well, thank you very much.
1:22:02
Matt Jacob: Thank you for the review.
1:22:03
Matt Jacob: Thank you for thank you for being here.
1:22:05
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Good work and um looking forward to see how your work developed from there.
1:22:11
Matt Jacob: Thank you.
1:22:11
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Yeah.
1:22:11
Matt Jacob: Appreciate it.
1:22:12
Matt Jacob: Great.
1:22:13
Matt Jacob: I'll let you go and have lunch.
1:22:15
Matt Jacob: We're here with Daniel Arnold, uh, legend of a photographer, legend of a Chico reviewer.
1:22:21
Matt Jacob: Well, how many times have you done Chico now?
1:22:23
Matt Jacob: This is my third one.
1:22:24
Daniel Arnold: In a row.
1:22:25
Matt Jacob: What does it mean to you?
1:22:28
Daniel Arnold: To be honest, my girlfriend loves to come to Montana.
1:22:31
Daniel Arnold: Um, and I'm not a guy, I'm not built to look forward to things.
1:22:39
Daniel Arnold: If something is ahead of me, I dread it.
1:22:41
Daniel Arnold: Um because of the commitment?
1:22:44
Daniel Arnold: I don't know what.
1:22:45
Daniel Arnold: I think, yeah, I just I just can only anticipate what will go wrong.
1:22:50
Daniel Arnold: But this is a a really I think uh this place is like rich with surprises if you let it happen to you.
1:23:00
Daniel Arnold: And every time I come in saying this is this is my last time, and by the end there's some like transcendent little surprise, different view of myself or perspective shift or connection or whatever.
1:23:14
Daniel Arnold: I'm like fine, bring bring Kay back to Montana next year.
1:23:19
Matt Jacob: It's it could be worse.
1:23:20
Matt Jacob: What do you what do you um I mean we just talked about my work and just work in general in terms of how people see the world, but how people use books and images and the book making process not being I mean, is it right to say not being as important to you as the actual just going out and fucking shooting?
1:23:42
Daniel Arnold: Yeah, I find all of the sort of backward-looking, memorializing parts of this job to be the hardest, like making a show or a book or you know, giving any kind of summation or greatest hits purpose or whatever.
1:24:00
Matt Jacob: Um being on a podcast.
1:24:02
Daniel Arnold: Well, luckily I live in New York, so we don't do these things.
1:24:05
Daniel Arnold: It's too, it's there's too many distractions to so uh you live in the city or um, yeah.
1:24:14
Daniel Arnold: I've had so much fun diverting that I forget your question.
1:24:17
Matt Jacob: Yeah, sorry, that was me.
1:24:18
Matt Jacob: I I interrupted you.
1:24:19
Matt Jacob: Uh the importance of books compared to uh the importance of I guess materializing your work compared to the work itself, yeah, and putting pressure, pressure on yourself from other people as well as from yourself.
1:24:31
Matt Jacob: Because we come here to the review and we just go, I want to make a book, um, come and like me.
1:24:37
Matt Jacob: Uh but you have a very refreshing and honest take on that, and you mentioned it earlier about kind of the anticlimatic experience of a book which no one really talks about that much.
1:24:49
Daniel Arnold: Yeah.
1:24:49
Daniel Arnold: I mean a book is it's a period, it's it's the end.
1:24:54
Daniel Arnold: I want things to keep going forever so I can find out what they are.
1:24:58
Daniel Arnold: Um but you know, I work uh not not everybody works that way.
1:25:02
Daniel Arnold: Um I mean I guess what I was saying to you was like I find it very difficult to do anything honest and personal on purpose.
1:25:17
Daniel Arnold: Like basically all I know to do is trust a process, commit to a ritual, pay attention, and you know, try to live a brave and uncomfortable enough life that I can surprise myself.
1:25:37
Matt Jacob: Um so where does I have so many questions about that, but where does bus the business side of it come in?
1:25:43
Matt Jacob: Because as soon as money enters the frame, business enters the frame, you start to think, well, I've got to come up with some ideas, or I've got to be, even worse, I've got to be told what to do, or I've been given a framework which seems to go against your very essence of how you want to photograph anyway.
1:25:59
Matt Jacob: So how do you kind of baffle those?
1:26:02
Daniel Arnold: There's no answer, I guess, but well, there is an answer, and it is that I I mean I've just been extraordinarily lucky and answered that question from a place of like just immense privilege.
1:26:17
Daniel Arnold: Um I don't I don't do any of that.
1:26:20
Daniel Arnold: I mean, like the only time I've ever cared about money is when I don't have any.
1:26:24
Daniel Arnold: I don't have kids, so that helps with that.
1:26:28
Daniel Arnold: Um and I've never it feels crazy to to say this at this stage of the game, but like I don't think I've ever asked for anything.
1:26:40
Matt Jacob: Wow.
1:26:41
Daniel Arnold: I got crazy lucky.
1:26:42
Daniel Arnold: Wow.
1:26:42
Daniel Arnold: I mean, I just worked my ass off in a public way when Instagram was uh young and interesting and got good opportunities and was never interested in cashing out.
1:26:56
Daniel Arnold: You know, it didn't start.
1:26:58
Daniel Arnold: I quit my last job when I was 33, so I already had, you know, some youthful glamour under my belt and didn't care about it anymore, and just really got into now a 13-year business of seeing what else I can get away with.
1:27:15
Daniel Arnold: Um, and really, above all else, prioritizing the protection of this crazy little spark that I stumbled on that I didn't know was there, that continues to be this just massive source of endless energy, even as my body gets old and pathetic and I'm tired and you know, over it sometimes.
1:27:38
Daniel Arnold: Um How do you know when the body of work is complete then?
1:27:41
Daniel Arnold: Or what you you don't.
1:27:43
Daniel Arnold: I don't I don't know that I even have a b I mean my body of work is is everything.
1:27:48
Daniel Arnold: I go to I go to you know, like in a in the past month, what I did do, I did like a some goofy cashmere sweater fashion campaign and I shot venomous snakes at the zoo and I I can't even remember, but like over the course of any given month, I do so many different things.
1:28:09
Daniel Arnold: I insist on making room to do curveball shit that is for me.
1:28:15
Daniel Arnold: And and when I'm not doing that, I'm just wandering the street.
1:28:19
Daniel Arnold: And you know, as I said before, the camera was on, like, oh, I'm depressed today.
1:28:23
Daniel Arnold: Great, let's go see what a depressed brain brings back from the world.
1:28:27
Daniel Arnold: Um and so what it becomes, I mean, I don't know that this is good.
1:28:35
Daniel Arnold: I do constantly wonder, like, have I completely sabotaged myself and am I just gonna be found like in a garage under a pile of print?
1:28:42
Daniel Arnold: Not even prints, it's all on the computer.
1:28:44
Daniel Arnold: I'm just gonna be like under my laptop.
1:28:46
Daniel Arnold: Uh you know, I guess more than prizing any given picture or like striving to make the perfect edit to show myself to the world.
1:29:01
Daniel Arnold: I'm just so much more interested in seeing what the end-of-month edit looks like when I throw myself in a million different directions and cross my fingers and like think I really don't want to do that, so I guess I have to do it.
1:29:14
Matt Jacob: Um, and that's why photography in this sense can be so powerful.
1:29:21
Daniel Arnold: Well, and it's also a very nice way of negotiating the problem of hired work.
1:29:27
Matt Jacob: But you said it sounds like you get a lot of a lot of creative freedom with with those that hire you.
1:29:32
Daniel Arnold: Well, I I just I just have kind of taken it, I guess, from the front from the beginning.
1:29:37
Daniel Arnold: I mean, I didn't mean to be a photographer.
1:29:40
Daniel Arnold: I worked as a writer for ten years, and just like a path opened up in my life where I was like, this is very interesting, and it's giving me psychotic energy and focus that I've never experienced before doing anything in my life.
1:29:52
Daniel Arnold: I have to just like make space for it.
1:29:55
Daniel Arnold: And dumped my whole life.
1:29:57
Daniel Arnold: Genuinely ate toast three meals a day for like two years.
1:30:00
Daniel Arnold: I was so skinny and cute.
1:30:02
Daniel Arnold: Um and I don't know, just by like chasing this abstract thing, uh, and becoming less and less interested in quality or meaning, and just focusing on giving myself the opportunity to reveal myself in different places.
1:30:25
Daniel Arnold: I mean, it makes my job so so great because it's just like I'm given this curveball room full of shit that I never would have encountered on my own, often like with a bunch of people running around trying to make it perfect for me, which is not what I want.
1:30:40
Daniel Arnold: Um but still at the end of every month I get to mix it all up with street pictures and weird side projects and pictures of my life at home and see what what connects them all and make that pile and then make that pile the next month and do it all year, and then at the end of the year, make take that whole year pile and be like, okay, what's the thread here?
1:31:04
Daniel Arnold: What are the pictures that get to stay?
1:31:07
Daniel Arnold: And just play that game forever.
1:31:08
Daniel Arnold: I mean, have you seen my website?
1:31:10
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
1:31:11
Daniel Arnold: I feel like that to me is much more satisfying than a book because in a way it replicates the experience of going to find the photos.
1:31:19
Matt Jacob: Well, and it's all you.
1:31:20
Daniel Arnold: Yeah.
1:31:21
Matt Jacob: You know, there's no publisher involved, there's no designer involved.
1:31:24
Matt Jacob: Well, there is, but it's you do, you know, fully, fully controlled.
1:31:27
Matt Jacob: So when you come to places like this, so 30 in a row, and maybe you don't have an answer to this question, but what give if you're looking at work across the table, what type of approach, or what type of work, or what, what are you seeing that would give you a spark and just go, yeah, this is this fucking this is great, or this means something, or dive deeper into this?
1:31:51
Matt Jacob: Are you looking for the truth?
1:31:53
Matt Jacob: Are you looking for consistency, cohesion?
1:31:55
Matt Jacob: What what is what are you looking for when you see other people's work?
1:31:58
Daniel Arnold: I mean, forgive me if it sounds corny and full of shit, but it's it's true.
1:32:03
Daniel Arnold: It's it's not like people keep asking me if I've seen any any great work that has blown me away, and I I actually don't know.
1:32:11
Daniel Arnold: Because you know, there's a lot of people in this mix who could offer you a a book deal through theoretically, or tell you like what you need to do with your portfolio to be able to one day approach a museum, or there are people who are extraordinarily confident about sequencing, who will open up your box of prints and tell you what they are and tell you to get rid of stuff, and the truth is it's 20 minutes of speed dating, and there's a lot of guilt and ego at play where you're like, I know it was hard for you to come here, and I've got 20 minutes to be useful, and God doesn't feel good to be useful, so I'm just gonna like freestyle whatever the fuck I can think of off the top of my head.
1:32:50
Daniel Arnold: And for me, I don't know, I guess I feel bad kind of because I don't I feel like I'm not even really engaging directly with the photos because I don't care.
1:33:04
Daniel Arnold: It's so much more interesting to me to try to conjure up this quick crack spiritual connection of like we we're both kind of after the same thing, and listen up, guys.
1:33:19
Daniel Arnold: It's probably the best advice you can hear.
1:33:20
Daniel Arnold: Well, I just feel like the I've had such a sweet, lucky ride.
1:33:25
Daniel Arnold: I've been given pats on the back that I didn't know existed, like before I could think to want them.
1:33:32
Daniel Arnold: And the the only consistent thing of value there is that I know it doesn't change anything.
1:33:39
Daniel Arnold: It doesn't matter, it doesn't make me f I don't wake up every morning and be like, I'm a good photographer, I'm gonna go take good pictures.
1:33:44
Daniel Arnold: I wake up every day and think, I'm shit.
1:33:46
Daniel Arnold: Maybe today I'll get lucky and prove to myself that I'm still worth a damn and that I wasn't just lucky when I was 33 and you know, audacious.
1:33:57
Daniel Arnold: Um and that's not false modesty.
1:33:59
Daniel Arnold: It's like I think there's this this perception now in this social media model that like you strike some magic note and the world just kind of like opens up and slows down before you and you get to luxuriate in being a good photographer.
1:34:16
Daniel Arnold: And I think the truth is like the more doors that open for you, the more you are you discover that this is just like a lifelong slog.
1:34:26
Daniel Arnold: And that there's no trophy that means anything except for the life that you get to live by uh committing to paying attention to your life.
1:34:35
Daniel Arnold: Mic job.
1:34:42
Matt Jacob: I didn't really take an instruction.
1:34:45
Matt Jacob: Or like a photo.
1:34:46
Matt Jacob: Hello.
1:34:46
Matt Jacob: Here with uh Tim Carpenter, legend of photographer, and how many times at Chico now?
1:34:52
Matt Jacob: This is my seventh time.
1:34:53
Matt Jacob: Seventh time.
1:34:55
Matt Jacob: So any different experiences this time or is it secondary?
1:34:59
Tim Carpenter: This is the warmest by far time.
1:35:01
Tim Carpenter: Uh, you know, because this time of year can be widely divergent as far as the weather.
1:35:05
Tim Carpenter: Last year there were two separate snowstorms that came through.
1:35:08
Tim Carpenter: We were at late because there were a lot of snow.
1:35:10
Tim Carpenter: And like I went to the plunge this morning, and um it was the least painful plunge of all.
1:35:16
Tim Carpenter: Uh because it's that's like 20 degrees warmer today.
1:35:19
Tim Carpenter: It's like Celsius, I think it's about already about 25, 26 degrees.
1:35:22
Tim Carpenter: The other big difference we've all noticed is that the attendees this year are much milder in their partying.
1:35:27
Tim Carpenter: Last year we raged and closed down the bar almost every night.
1:35:30
Tim Carpenter: Yeah, did you stay out late last night?
1:35:32
Tim Carpenter: Uh no, not terribly, but like midnight.
1:35:34
Tim Carpenter: Or yeah, 12:30 or something like that.
1:35:36
Tim Carpenter: Tim's an excellent karaoke.
1:35:40
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
1:35:40
Matt Jacob: Tim also reviewed me on the first day.
1:35:42
Matt Jacob: I think even um I've remembered every little piece of advice on that.
1:35:46
Matt Jacob: Because um, not only do I respect you and your work so much, I think you're you're extremely well friendly, humble, and open.
1:35:53
Matt Jacob: So kind of accessible in that.
1:35:55
Matt Jacob: And does that come from just how you've always been?
1:35:58
Matt Jacob: Or I know you you do a lot of education, you mentor a lot, and has that kind of been evolution for you?
1:36:04
Tim Carpenter: In terms of teaching, yeah.
1:36:05
Tim Carpenter: No, I mean I've I I've I've taught now for six years in a year-long program, and I've done a lot of other you know things.
1:36:11
Tim Carpenter: So um I really tried to train myself to be that and to think about what I would want to move forward and how I I'm I call myself the practical guy.
1:36:20
Tim Carpenter: I really want to have you know like steps forward.
1:36:22
Tim Carpenter: Um, one time I took a work a workshop a long time ago with the Andrea Motica, and her comments were really actionable.
1:36:27
Tim Carpenter: And I just like I want to be like that, you know.
1:36:29
Tim Carpenter: I want to I want to try to find the way forward with something.
1:36:32
Tim Carpenter: And you know, the thing is like I I I said this to you and I say it to almost everybody, I never say good picture, bad picture.
1:36:37
Tim Carpenter: I want to hear what's in somebody's head and their heart that just has to get out.
1:36:40
Tim Carpenter: Yeah, and then I can think about let's think about how the pictures behave against that.
1:36:44
Tim Carpenter: Yeah, you know, yeah, because I do not want to see more of what I think I want to see, you know.
1:36:49
Tim Carpenter: I'm just one dumb guy, and I want to get what's what's weird and idiosyncratic in the person and not my opinion.
1:36:56
Tim Carpenter: Yeah, listen to listen to that.
1:36:58
Matt Jacob: Great advice.
1:36:59
Matt Jacob: Um, one more question, let's go, because I know you've got to get into reviews.
1:37:02
Matt Jacob: Um, seven times in a in a row, Chico?
1:37:05
Tim Carpenter: No, well like 2019, and then there was a COVID break, and then uh then they played catch-up by like doing a couple close together.
1:37:11
Tim Carpenter: But yeah, but basically, yeah, seven in a row.
1:37:14
Matt Jacob: What tell me what Chico means to you as as a reviewer?
1:37:17
Tim Carpenter: So as a reviewer, there's two, I mean, there's two things.
1:37:19
Tim Carpenter: It's like as the other reviewers, some of them I've known forever now, you know, and they're best friends.
1:37:23
Tim Carpenter: Some like I'm people I'm I'm just meeting for the first time.
1:37:26
Tim Carpenter: So for me to from like my professional relationships and personal relationships, because now I know all these publishers who if if I see a quality project, I can send them to Lartier or send them to uh Clint or send them to whoever, you know, and they're actually getting connected and getting made.
1:37:40
Tim Carpenter: Wow, that's nice.
1:37:40
Tim Carpenter: And then, but also connecting with all the the attendees, and like a bunch of people have actually become part of my year, the year-long program at Penumbra.
1:37:47
Tim Carpenter: So it's all kind of a web, you know, of everything.
1:37:49
Tim Carpenter: And then, you know, in a few years, some of these attendees are going to be reviewers.
1:37:52
Tim Carpenter: Yeah, and you know, they're gonna be the same the same people.
1:37:54
Tim Carpenter: So community connection.
1:37:56
Tim Carpenter: Absolutely, yeah.
1:37:57
Tim Carpenter: And you know, like I come out of here, like everybody has two or three pictures to just kick my ass, and I come out of here like so inspired, and I just like I gotta go start making pictures of being better again, you know.
1:38:06
Matt Jacob: We forget even even the pros at Tim's level still need to be inspired, not need to be, but still get inspired.
1:38:11
Tim Carpenter: Oh yeah, everybody can make pictures that I've never seen before, you know, and I love it.
1:38:14
Tim Carpenter: So Tim, thank you so much for the time.
1:38:16
Tim Carpenter: Appreciate it.
1:38:16
Tim Carpenter: Have a good afternoon.
1:38:18
Matt Jacob: Thank you.
1:38:20
Matt Jacob: Tell me just tell me just what were we talking about?
1:38:24
Ann Hermes: What am I doing?
1:38:24
Matt Jacob: Yeah, no, no, that's kind of like journalistic interview.
1:38:28
Matt Jacob: Tell me who you are, Ann Hathaway.
1:38:30
Matt Jacob: What's your last name again?
1:38:32
Ann Hermes: Um Anne Hermes.
1:38:34
Matt Jacob: I was close with uh the H at least.
1:38:36
Ann Hermes: Yeah, you were you were partly there.
1:38:38
Ann Hermes: Um, no relationship to the French scarf company, or I could pay for all the gear I wanted to.
1:38:44
Ann Hermes: So yeah.
1:38:45
Matt Jacob: What um tell us what you're doing here at Chico at a 30,000-foot view.
1:38:51
Ann Hermes: I was uh trying to figure out what, if anything, I could do with my personal work because I've had it published in the editorial space and I've been so proud and grateful for that.
1:39:03
Ann Hermes: But I don't feel like it's the end of the road for the work I've been doing.
1:39:07
Ann Hermes: And so I came here to try and figure out if there was a path after this.
1:39:12
Ann Hermes: And there have been a lot of direct and indirect answers to that, and I feel like I've been able to piece together some answers, both from discussions with not just the reviewers, but the reviees.
1:39:26
Ann Hermes: Because I think having conversations with the other working photographers here has been one of the more rewarding things.
1:39:33
Matt Jacob: Working as in people doing it full time.
1:39:35
Ann Hermes: Like if you're making money off of your camera, okay, and I'm not saying you're making money off of the personal projects you've come to show here, um, even just like the unglamorous stuff that you're doing, and you're not, as we talked about, yeah, the hustling, you know.
1:39:49
Ann Hermes: Like I wanted to talk about the hustle because I don't think a lot of people talk about the hustle.
1:39:53
Ann Hermes: No, because it's not sexy, it's not well.
1:39:57
Ann Hermes: How often are we gonna post that on our Instagram account or Substack?
1:40:01
Ann Hermes: Yeah, um, it's much sexier to talk about the big personal projects photo books and the art reviews and the yeah.
1:40:09
Ann Hermes: I love that.
1:40:10
Ann Hermes: I would love I love looking at that, you know.
1:40:12
Ann Hermes: I want to support that, but I also want to know how you're funding your life because that it's the model is broken, it's only gotten more difficult.
1:40:22
Ann Hermes: And so, how do we support each other and how do we support ourselves?
1:40:26
Ann Hermes: And having people who are not gatekeeping that information, especially here, has been one of the more valuable um lessons for like things that I've experienced is like learning some of the hard, direct paths and how to leverage your personal work in the commercial world or as a teaching gig, or you know, even doing more workshops.
1:40:50
Ann Hermes: That kind of a thing has been really valuable.
1:40:52
Matt Jacob: So it sounds like the goal, the initial goal you had from TK Reviewers changed slightly, or the the expectation I should say.
1:41:00
Ann Hermes: Everybody came here wanting a book.
1:41:01
Ann Hermes: Of course, I would have loved to come here and have somebody say, oh, here's money for a book, right?
1:41:07
Ann Hermes: You know, like let's do it right now.
1:41:09
Ann Hermes: Um and I didn't have anyone say this is not a book.
1:41:13
Ann Hermes: No one said that.
1:41:14
Ann Hermes: Everyone said this is a book, it's not a photo book.
1:41:18
Ann Hermes: It is a uh for at least my project, it has more of a broad appeal outside the you know, photo book world.
1:41:27
Ann Hermes: And so you should be looking at academic presses, which was very valuable information.
1:41:32
Ann Hermes: But it's also kind of like, okay, so we're still talking about more time, more energy.
1:41:39
Ann Hermes: And at the end of all of this work, you know, um, which I care about getting out there, uh I still won't make money off of the book because nobody makes money off of photo books no matter where you get published.
1:41:53
Ann Hermes: So for me, I hate to say it, like I need to know how I can fund my life and continue doing this work because I work in the journalism world quite often and my projects about journalism, and my husband's in journalism, and I don't know if you've heard, there's no money in journalism.
1:42:13
Ann Hermes: And oh, by the way, there's no money in the photo book world.
1:42:16
Ann Hermes: So just figuring out how to piece this together to make it sustainable, because I think we shouldn't lie to each other at this point.
1:42:25
Ann Hermes: It's the model is unsustainable, so we really have to help each other keep at it because there's so many valuable voices and stories that are being told here.
1:42:37
Ann Hermes: And I just want everybody to be able to continue the work that they're doing, but we do have to put it We have to be able to afford it.
1:42:44
Ann Hermes: Yeah, we gotta put food on the table, we gotta put a roof over our heads.
1:42:48
Matt Jacob: Um, when you as you mentioned earlier about the model that's broken, you elaborate more, certainly in the journalistic world for for those that don't really know.
1:42:56
Matt Jacob: Tell us, tell us what makes you say that.
1:43:00
Ann Hermes: Well, I was a staff photographer at a newspaper, um, and that is a job that is disappearing and has almost entirely disappeared.
1:43:10
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
1:43:10
Ann Hermes: Um, and so that is a broken model in and of itself.
1:43:13
Ann Hermes: Anyone who wants to get a staff job, like, whoa, get in line, you know.
1:43:18
Ann Hermes: Um, but even freelancing for editorial, um, and I'm talking, you know, like big places, great reputations, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, when they still existed to some degree.
1:43:34
Ann Hermes: Um, it's just, you know, it's they don't pay enough to live in a major urban setting.
1:43:43
Ann Hermes: And even if you live in a remote area, they're not calling you enough to sustain you gotta be around it.
1:43:49
Ann Hermes: Yeah.
1:43:50
Ann Hermes: Um, and so being realistic about that really helped me enter into the freelancing life after I had a staff job in a newspaper, because if I had gone in thinking I was only gonna make money off of editorial, it would have been really painful.
1:44:07
Ann Hermes: And so now I'm trying to find um client commercial clients that will basically pay me um 10 times more for the same skill set that I use in journalism.
1:44:21
Ann Hermes: And somebody, another attendee here actually coined the, I had never heard this term, um, commercial documentary.
1:44:29
Ann Hermes: And that was like, oh, that makes so much sense to me because the clients who are actually paying me to keep a roof over my head, um, they're hiring me for all the same skill set that I developed over years of being a working photojournalist.
1:44:45
Ann Hermes: And they actually value that skill set tremendously because they're like, oh, I don't need to send a crew of 20 in with you.
1:44:52
Ann Hermes: You can do an amazing job, and your critical thinking skills are stellar and you're flexible and you can work in any situation.
1:45:00
Ann Hermes: It's like I learned all that as a photojournalist.
1:45:02
Ann Hermes: And, you know, now I'm getting clients who are valuing that and paying me for that.
1:45:07
Ann Hermes: Um, and you know, it's the same kind of thing where, like in my world, if there's a client job that I can't do um with a commercial client, I I always try to pass that off to another photojournalist because A, I knew that they can do a great job.
1:45:24
Ann Hermes: Yeah.
1:45:24
Ann Hermes: And B, I want them to be able to fund their documentary projects that they're doing as well.
1:45:30
Ann Hermes: So that's the broken model that I'm talking about.
1:45:34
Ann Hermes: Like, and and now I'm, you know, learning more about the photo photo book world.
1:45:39
Ann Hermes: Um, you know, there's nobody here is gonna lie to you and tell you that there's money in photo books, you know, at least not until you build up like a tremendous-I don't think they have.
1:45:48
Matt Jacob: I think they I think we've yeah, I think it's been quite uh honest in that respect.
1:45:52
Matt Jacob: Yeah, for sure.
1:45:53
Ann Hermes: So um for me, I'm working in two broken model situations, so I'm trying to figure out how to make that work.
1:46:00
Matt Jacob: Within a broken model environment, do are there opportunities that might spring from that?
1:46:06
Matt Jacob: For example, is education, you know, the democratization of education, certainly with social media and online access that we get, maybe I don't want to bring AI into it, but uh, you know, people can do people can do everything these days uh at the touch of a button.
1:46:21
Matt Jacob: And if you thought I mean, I guess my question is what happened, what do you what are the answers that you've been looking for?
1:46:27
Matt Jacob: And what when you go home, what's what are you going to kind of attack next?
1:46:34
Ann Hermes: Well, I'm definitely wondering more and more now if I'm looking at a third broken model because commercial's probably also broken.
1:46:43
Ann Hermes: Yeah, or breaking or breaking at the it's ripping at the seams as we speak.
1:46:47
Ann Hermes: Um you know, I've found and this being here and speaking with the review reviewers has confirmed that being scrappy and hustling is the only thing that's gonna see you through to the end.
1:47:04
Ann Hermes: And in some cases, that's gonna be taking work that you might at first find demoralizing.
1:47:09
Ann Hermes: But let's it let's face it, wedding photographers are gonna survive AI.
1:47:14
Matt Jacob: Baby photographers, wedding photographers, not product photographers or I mean Larry was presenting.
1:47:22
Matt Jacob: I want to hear what you think about Larry's uh lecture this morning because he you asked him that question actually.
1:47:28
Ann Hermes: Yeah.
1:47:28
Matt Jacob: I don't think he answered it specifically.
1:47:31
Ann Hermes: It's it's I mean, AI is definitely a piece of the puzzle for the erosion of public trust in photojournalism, but there's also a reputational um hit that we I think that's what you meant by the question, right?
1:47:43
Ann Hermes: Yeah.
1:47:44
Ann Hermes: Um, you know, with the fake news, you know, fake news wave that came about in 2016.
1:47:51
Ann Hermes: I I've seen it in alarming ways because it's not just, you know, people saying that the New York Times is fake news, but people are saying that these local newsrooms that I photograph are fake news.
1:48:04
Ann Hermes: And it's like, you guys shop at the same grocery store as the people who report on your neighborhood.
1:48:10
Ann Hermes: Like you know better than anyone that they are not, you know, making this shit up.
1:48:15
Matt Jacob: Yeah, now it's uh uh anyone's opinion is is is worth as much as a fact.
1:48:18
Matt Jacob: And it's and then polit politicization politicized Yeah, politizes.
1:48:23
Ann Hermes: Politiciz been a long week.
1:48:28
Matt Jacob: Um, but media's put politicized now, which which is why people don't trust anything that A doesn't fit their own narrative and B doesn't kind of uh fit into the whatever perspective they're watching or reading or listening to, right?
1:48:42
Ann Hermes: Yeah.
1:48:42
Ann Hermes: Well, and the funny part of that is like I think and Larry touched on this a little bit of like there was never really a truth with the capital T.
1:48:49
Ann Hermes: There was never true objectivity, um, true objectivity, because the way I photograph things is different from the way you would photograph.
1:48:58
Matt Jacob: So it got opinion attached to it all the time.
1:49:00
Ann Hermes: You can't escape from your own reality enough to be totally unbiased.
1:49:05
Ann Hermes: And I've been trying to, in my journalism work, go more towards fairness because I think that's the best anyone can do.
1:49:12
Ann Hermes: But Larry kind of in a way weirdly answered his own question through his own work because he's his work has transitioned from um, at least the photo books and the stories that he's telling, the way he's telling them, has transitioned from the very tried and true old school black and white books with minimal design, you know, and just like really intense war imagery.
1:49:38
Ann Hermes: Um those were sort of like the traditional photo books uh in that particular field.
1:49:44
Ann Hermes: And now you've seen like he has ephemera, you know, he has objects, he's scanning objects, he's music and video music and video.
1:49:53
Ann Hermes: And I think he's seen the writing on the wall that like storytelling has changed a little bit.
1:49:58
Ann Hermes: And, you know.
1:49:59
Ann Hermes: Does that make the fresh out of grad school photojournalist version of me very uncomfortable?
1:50:08
Ann Hermes: 100%.
1:50:09
Ann Hermes: Do I think it's more relevant and will reach more audiences in a the world we live in?
1:50:16
Ann Hermes: 100%.
1:50:17
Ann Hermes: And if that is gonna get somebody who has not educated themselves about what's going on with you know Afghanistan or Ukraine, you know, then if if that's what's gonna connect with people, then I'm kinda like, all right, let's do it if that's what needs to be done, as long as we're transparent about the way that we're doing it.
1:50:38
Matt Jacob: Fascinating.
1:50:39
Matt Jacob: Well, thanks for talking to me and good luck.
1:50:41
Matt Jacob: We'll all keep in touch.
1:50:42
Matt Jacob: I'm excited to see what happens.
1:50:45
Ann Hermes: We're all just making it up as we go along.
1:50:47
Matt Jacob: Don't tell anyone.
1:50:48
Ann Hermes: Yeah.
1:50:49
Matt Jacob: Thanks, Anna.
1:50:50
Matt Jacob: Hey guys.
1:50:53
Matt Jacob: Just finished my last review with Jonathan Levitt.
1:50:58
Matt Jacob: And I think I don't know how I feel.
1:51:03
Matt Jacob: I feel sad that it's over.
1:51:04
Matt Jacob: I feel actually quite emotional that I'm not gonna see some of these people probably ever again.
1:51:11
Matt Jacob: I'm not gonna see some of these people for a very long time.
1:51:13
Matt Jacob: And I go back to life, a life that I love, but um this is where I want to be, and these are the people I want to be around.
1:51:27
Matt Jacob: And uh in terms of the reviews, guys, I don't I actually like I it's this is gonna take me some time to process uh in terms of the reviewing the reviews and reviewing kind of where I want and where I need to go next with this.
1:51:46
Matt Jacob: Um you may think like we uh we making mountains out of molehills, um but this is this is hard.
1:51:57
Matt Jacob: Like if you you're trying to you're trying to um make something that is meaningful, important, and um means something to you, means something to other people, you're trying to get your voice out there and to be heard without using too many cliches.
1:52:16
Matt Jacob: Um you are wanting to be wanted, you're wanting to be liked, you're wanting to be respected, you're wanting to be understood more than anything.
1:52:26
Matt Jacob: For me, that's the the common denominator with everything in life, whether it's family, friends, um businesses, teams, career, health, um and art.
1:52:43
Matt Jacob: And uh I'm very proud to call myself an artist, but if this week has taught me anything, it's I still have a long way to go to achieve what I want to achieve out of this, and um I don't really have any clarity on on how to move forward with that yet.
1:53:09
Matt Jacob: And I'm just gonna trust the process, trust that uh I'm not gonna have clarity until you know there's people there's people here with pretty much fully formed books, and they will find clarity easier than someone like myself who's who's got a body of work that I'm after this week I'm 100% sure can be made into a book.
1:53:32
Matt Jacob: But I've I've got so much more work to do to figure that out, to figure out where this connective tissue is with the work that I want to present to the world, and how to engage a viewer more, how to make sure my message comes across clearly but poetically, and um fuck, if it was easy, everyone would do it, right?
1:53:57
Matt Jacob: Um and for the reviews, one thing I know is that pretty much every view has been wildly different.
1:54:03
Matt Jacob: There's been some common themes, um, but there's been many different directions that the reviewers would like themselves or would like me to take the work, and that has been extremely confusing.
1:54:17
Matt Jacob: The first few days, if I was to think back, the first few days were just ego death, was just like getting out of your own way, um, being punched in the face, which I knew would happen and you're absolutely fine with and in support of.
1:54:30
Matt Jacob: Needed to do that.
1:54:32
Matt Jacob: I don't present my work too often, uh, in person, in print, um, with intention and with seriousness.
1:54:39
Matt Jacob: So, yeah, there's so many things I'm already gleaning from this week.
1:54:45
Matt Jacob: One is I should present my work more, I should get it in front of more eyes, I should play more, experiment more.
1:54:52
Matt Jacob: Um, I've shot so much work that I haven't really investigated with myself yet.
1:54:59
Matt Jacob: And you know, Brian talked about this yesterday.
1:55:03
Matt Jacob: Um go back and be more experimentation and be be more experimental with the stuff I've already shot.
1:55:13
Matt Jacob: That shit.
1:55:19
Matt Jacob: Are we still recording?
1:55:20
Matt Jacob: Uh let me just hold it.
1:55:22
Matt Jacob: And so yeah, uh at the moment it's it's it just is, I guess.
1:55:34
Matt Jacob: Um I'm looking at my camera that's scratched now, great.
1:55:38
Matt Jacob: It's been very windy here.
1:55:41
Matt Jacob: Um to get away from kind of the deep and dark depths of the review process, it's been so um revelationary to meet like-minded, so many like-minded people, to connect with quite a few of them, and you would have seen them on this episode or heard from them on this episode already.
1:56:01
Matt Jacob: Um and that's just such an honour uh to be within this community.
1:56:07
Matt Jacob: So I would thank myself for that and thank you guys for that, and thank Jesse, Katie, um, all of the reviewers that spend their time.
1:56:17
Matt Jacob: Um like I said, yeah, they get paid, but they they definitely don't do it for the money.
1:56:22
Matt Jacob: Um, because uh I don't think it's life-changing money at all um to to divulge a little secret.
1:56:28
Matt Jacob: But it's not.
1:56:29
Matt Jacob: So they do it for m many of their own personal reasons, and uh I'm very grateful, very, very grateful for that and for Jesse to kind of bring them and us together.
1:56:41
Matt Jacob: And yeah, it's a it's a it's a business enterprise, of course, but that's not the reason that this happens, and that's not the reason that Jesse started it.
1:56:50
Matt Jacob: So um, yeah, as as as as far as portfolio reviews go, um, and I haven't done that many, but as part uh as as far as reviews go, this is you know uh in my mind the world leading world leading one and the most prominent that we have certainly in in this side of the world.
1:57:10
Matt Jacob: So just extremely grateful to have been able to present my work and it be it be received really well.
1:57:17
Matt Jacob: Um and had pretty much I think 90% of extremely valuable constructive feedback stuff that I can go away and think about first.
1:57:30
Matt Jacob: This is gonna take me a few months to really just marinate and meditate upon and see where I want to go next.
1:57:39
Matt Jacob: Um I haven't had a review from Jesse yet.
1:57:41
Matt Jacob: He's had a quick look at the work, but I before we go, so it's now what is it?
1:57:48
Matt Jacob: It's now 4.45 on Saturday.
1:57:51
Matt Jacob: We leave tomorrow lunchtime, so we have less than 12 hours left, and um just like anything, it's sad that the end is uh upon us.
1:58:01
Matt Jacob: But I leave here with an experience, with having met some amazing people and with some direction and with a lot to think about.
1:58:11
Matt Jacob: Um a lot of my work is is disparate, so I have one body of work that is um more post-documentary, more I guess, um contemporary uh work that's more I don't know how to describe it, but it's more traditional and more rooted from where I kind of how or where and when I love photography.
1:58:36
Matt Jacob: And um I have another body of work which is largely what I presented this week that is a bit more experimental, but much, much more personal and much more narrative-based.
1:58:50
Matt Jacob: Much more poetic, and I lean, I'm I want to lean into that more, but stay true to what I'm arguably better at and what I'm arguably find easier.
1:59:03
Matt Jacob: And I think they can both coexist, and that's what I've learned, is they can either I can either find a way for them to coexist together in the same project, in the same if it's gonna be a book or in the same series, whatever it might be, and I can find a way to separate them and have them two separate projects.
1:59:22
Matt Jacob: So that has been uh a lot of clarity with regards to where I go next.
1:59:30
Matt Jacob: And um that's it.
1:59:33
Matt Jacob: I could I probably will.
1:59:34
Matt Jacob: I'll do a I'll do a real reflective episode um I don't know in a month's time or something.
1:59:40
Matt Jacob: I don't know when.
1:59:41
Matt Jacob: I don't know if it's of any interest to you to be honest.
1:59:43
Matt Jacob: I think I'm hoping this episode has been of real interest to you guys just because we've got a little bit behind the scenes, had a little bit of first hand experience from me.
1:59:52
Matt Jacob: We've we've met other attendees who've given us insights, and we met some of the reviewers who've also given their insights from the other side of the fence.
2:00:00
Matt Jacob: So I hope you've enjoyed it.
2:00:03
Matt Jacob: I can't say that um I can do this all the time, of course, uh, but I hope you've enjoyed it, and um there's more to come.
2:00:13
Matt Jacob: I'm gonna take the microphone around tonight, still a few people I want to speak to.
2:00:16
Matt Jacob: Hopefully, I can get them.
2:00:19
Matt Jacob: Everyone is exhausted, everyone's still really busy, everyone's trying to like get everyone they haven't got yet to speak to and to look at their work.
2:00:28
Matt Jacob: So I don't want to do that disservice, I don't want to intrude.
2:00:31
Matt Jacob: And so if this is the last thing you hear or see from me on this trip, then um I don't know what else to say.
2:00:40
Matt Jacob: I think I've said enough, but uh I'll be writing a lot about my experiences just for my own purpose.
2:00:45
Matt Jacob: I'll be obviously meditating a lot upon this and where to go next, and hopefully I can share some of that with you over the next however long it's gonna be.
2:00:55
Matt Jacob: This is gonna be a long time that I'm going to be spending immersed in this work that I want to forge into something that's complete.
2:01:06
Matt Jacob: So we'll see.
2:01:08
Matt Jacob: We'll see, and hopefully I can share that process with you guys.
2:01:11
Matt Jacob: But for now, I am going to grab a beer, try and relax, try and speak to people I haven't spoken to yet.
2:01:18
Matt Jacob: Maybe I'll bring the camera out, maybe I'll bring the microphone out.
2:01:20
Matt Jacob: Um, but yeah, let's see.
2:01:23
Matt Jacob: See you guys.
2:01:24
Matt Jacob: Alright.
2:01:34
Matt Jacob: Shouldn't be saying high highs, yeah.
2:01:38
Matt Jacob: These brutally low lows from this beautiful room.
2:01:42
Matt Jacob: Yeah, just a little bit, but you try and get I mean it collapses when that fucking summer goes away.
2:01:46
Matt Jacob: Yeah, it turns into this like empty landscape that you kind of have to fucking survive almost not living in.
2:01:55
Rory King: What I find quite interesting about being here is like a real resonance with the land and feeling so grateful to be here.
2:02:05
Rory King: And then going out to Livingston and spending like five, six days there.
2:02:10
Speaker 19: Yeah, that must have been cool.
2:02:11
Rory King: Well, it's like an incredible place.
2:02:15
Rory King: It has like a creative kind of hit historical energy to it, and then meeting the locals, and they're the most warm, kind-hearted people.
2:02:25
Rory King: Yeah, some of the definitely the warmest people in the US.
2:02:28
Rory King: In the back of my mind, I'm thinking about the political climate here in the States and this differentiation of values, and you have these like moments of connection with people.
2:02:43
Rory King: You're like, you're so kind, holy shit.
2:02:45
Rory King: And then you're like, oh, where are you from?
2:02:47
Rory King: I'm from Australia.
2:02:47
Rory King: Oh you have a whole beautiful conversation, and then if you dig deeper, I can't really escape from like how do you feel about it.
2:03:01
Rory King: Not how do you feel about, but what are your values?
2:03:04
Rory King: Yeah.
2:03:07
Matt Jacob: For me, I feel like there's like profound dissonance with living here, and like it's such a beautiful landscape.
2:03:13
Matt Jacob: There is that like connection to it.
2:03:16
Matt Jacob: And like maybe it's where I live north of here, but like there's a very dark undertone of like cruelty and unwillingness to like talk to your neighbors and like be present, be part of a community, and let others in.
2:03:35
Matt Jacob: Isn't that like cruelty in what aspects?
2:03:37
Matt Jacob: Like the way they fucking treat homeless people, the way they treat trans people, the way like it's a fuck you, leave me alone.
2:03:45
Matt Jacob: I came here to be left the fuck alone and don't talk to me, kind of thing.
2:03:48
Matt Jacob: Um it's a it's a cold uncaringness.
2:03:56
Matt Jacob: Which you don't necessarily see as a foreigner on the surface as much.
2:04:01
Matt Jacob: You see, necessarily as a foreigner so much as just a visitor.
2:04:04
Matt Jacob: Like uh yeah, that's a better you're here and like you get this.
2:04:12
Matt Jacob: I mean, but by the sounds of it, this doesn't happen.
2:04:14
Matt Jacob: You know, this isn't every day in Montana.
2:04:17
Matt Jacob: This is this is a bubble.
2:04:18
Matt Jacob: Livingston is also a bubble.
2:04:20
Matt Jacob: Livingston is a very progressive liberal bubble.
2:04:23
Matt Jacob: Um is it a liberal town?
2:04:26
Matt Jacob: Yeah, not too much.
2:04:27
Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:04:27
Matt Jacob: Oh, okay.
2:04:28
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
2:04:29
Matt Jacob: Well, Montana's a red state, right?
2:04:31
Matt Jacob: So like uh red okay.
2:04:33
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
2:04:34
Matt Jacob: Um used to be more of a like a purple libertarian state.
2:04:37
Matt Jacob: Like it was just like you leave me alone, I'll leave you alone.
2:04:41
Matt Jacob: I'm gonna come help you shovel your fucking driveway off now.
2:04:44
Matt Jacob: It's lost that in the last handful of years, I think.
2:04:50
Matt Jacob: Really?
2:04:50
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
2:04:51
Matt Jacob: Why?
2:04:51
Matt Jacob: I think a lot of people have moved in after COVID.
2:04:54
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
2:04:55
Matt Jacob: A lot of people came from like California and liberal states, and like I'm being uh what's the word?
2:05:04
Matt Jacob: Oppressed.
2:05:05
Matt Jacob: Like I don't have these freedoms, I have to wear a mask, I have to do all this fucking COVID bullshit.
2:05:10
Matt Jacob: Now they come here thinking never matters.
2:05:11
Matt Jacob: They come here thinking that the West is this rugged, hyper-individualized place when really like it it can't be that.
2:05:20
Matt Jacob: Like this land's like it's so spread out, the resources are so spread out, the communities are so spread out.
2:05:28
Matt Jacob: Like you need to be, you need to build community in here.
2:05:35
Matt Jacob: Um give us some more details about your week.
2:05:37
Matt Jacob: I'm I'm interested, like there's obviously I've spoken to like I want to ask Aaron a few more questions later, but I've spoken to a lot of the attendees here about just the the bubble that is TK review, but the the whole alumni thing is slightly different.
2:05:50
Matt Jacob: And for those that may be listening or watching, can you tell us like the week that you've had, what that has entailed?
2:05:56
Matt Jacob: I mean, with with Ray Meeks, you know, one of the heroes in the game, but um, yeah, just give us a little a few more details about what what what you've been doing this week.
2:06:04
Rory King: Well, okay, so this is my third year here.
2:06:07
Rory King: The first year I felt like I was bringing my practice, my world into this like sharing it with artists that I have known their name and their work forever.
2:06:24
Rory King: Yeah, and like so inspired by them.
2:06:26
Rory King: And daunted at the same time.
2:06:27
Rory King: Daunted.
2:06:28
Rory King: You like sit down and you have a beer and you have a conversation and you realize that we're actually all just trying to figure it out.
2:06:35
Rory King: We're all human beings.
2:06:37
Rory King: For me, Ray, huge influence on my work.
2:06:41
Rory King: His materiality, the way he treats images and like plays with them and puts them on different paper stocks and the craft.
2:06:50
Rory King: The craft of it.
2:06:51
Rory King: But the like the artistry of it.
2:06:54
Rory King: Yeah.
2:06:54
Rory King: It's artisanal, it's not cerebral, it's it embodied emotion.
2:07:00
Rory King: And for me, that was a huge influence on my practice.
2:07:03
Rory King: And now this was so when was your first year here?
2:07:06
Rory King: Uh four years ago.
2:07:08
Rory King: Alright, so 2022 is so I missed last year, but I had two years in a row and missed last year and then so sorry, your first year was Ray one of your reviewers?
2:07:16
Rory King: Uh no, he he he doesn't like reviewing.
2:07:20
Rory King: Oh, really?
2:07:20
Rory King: No.
2:07:21
Rory King: So he wasn't here, but then the next year I came back, he was running a workshop.
2:07:26
Rory King: And to like sit down with him and even hear his voice was like this is insane.
2:07:33
Rory King: Yeah.
2:07:33
Rory King: Now this is the second year of doing a workshop with him, and he feels like like just a another person.
2:07:45
Rory King: And he has his practice that I respond to and resonate with.
2:07:49
Rory King: But to have his wisdom, experience, and sensibility kind of gently just map itself out onto your work.
2:07:59
Rory King: Whoa, what a what an what an amazing gift.
2:08:04
Matt Jacob: So this is your second year as alumni or first year as always.
2:08:07
Matt Jacob: Second year as alumni.
2:08:08
Matt Jacob: Um before that, so last year.
2:08:13
Rory King: So I wasn't here last year.
2:08:15
Matt Jacob: Uh the so the year before, yeah, who was your you did a workshop?
2:08:20
Rory King: First year was just as an attendee.
2:08:22
Rory King: And then I did a workshop, a bookmaking workshop with Ray.
2:08:26
Rory King: Oh, okay.
2:08:27
Rory King: Second year.
2:08:27
Rory King: Oh, okay.
2:08:28
Matt Jacob: Missed last year, and now you've had Ray twice for workshop.
2:08:30
Matt Jacob: Yeah, nice.
2:08:33
Rory King: Uh the difference is that in the first year I was in this state of it was like a dream, like surreal to me.
2:08:44
Rory King: And I was so overwhelmed.
2:08:46
Rory King: Felt like I'd been creating work in this bubble for my own relationships with people, portraits of people that I love, places that I love to go to.
2:08:56
Rory King: It's just this contained thing.
2:08:58
Rory King: And you're coming and sharing that with people, and it's vulnerable because you get you get validation, you also get criticism, you're thinking about why the f why the fuck do we do this?
2:09:09
Rory King: Why do we make work?
2:09:11
Rory King: Then to come back now for the third time, I'm I feel like I have friendships with the people that I was nervous to meet four years ago.
2:09:23
Rory King: Amazing.
2:09:24
Matt Jacob: Yes.
2:09:24
Rory King: And you sit down and the work is the work.
2:09:27
Rory King: We're all just gonna make it.
2:09:29
Rory King: It comes through us, we're conduits for something we need to express ourselves in in the world.
2:09:34
Rory King: But for me, now coming back, photography takes a bit of a backseat.
2:09:40
Rory King: And it's about how we relate together as people.
2:09:43
Rory King: How like tell me about your life.
2:09:46
Rory King: Tell me about how many times you've been heartbroken, tell me about what your relationship with your parents are like.
2:09:52
Rory King: That feels like it feeds it it feeds back into the photography.
2:09:57
Rory King: But that's why I come back.
2:10:02
Rory King: That's why I'm here.
2:10:03
Rory King: That's why everyone should try and get here.
2:10:05
Rory King: It's beautiful.
2:10:05
Rory King: It's gorgeous.
2:10:07
Matt Jacob: What um going to something more material, Gumsucker.
2:10:10
Matt Jacob: Yeah, tell us what was the inspiration behind that, if there was one, or was it more of that organic um regurgitation of everything that you just talked about, or was it there like a specific document?
2:10:23
Rory King: It was quite a singular, unique experience because all of the work that I'd made, I'd done all of the photography, the sequencing, like making a maquette, everything is just you.
2:10:35
Rory King: And so Jesse asked to see my archive, which I'd never really shown anyone.
2:10:43
Rory King: Even more vulnerability, like all of the terrible pictures.
2:10:47
Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah.
2:10:49
Rory King: And then he's sitting down with me, like essentially doing yes and no.
2:10:53
Rory King: And what he's pulling out for me is like, the fuck?
2:10:57
Rory King: Like, why are you why are you focusing on this picture?
2:11:00
Rory King: But then it became this collaborative experience of working with somebody who has their own vision, their own world, their own business, their own sensibilities, and trying to create something that is a a combination of the two of you.
2:11:18
Rory King: And so I I didn't come here with gum like that.
2:11:21
Rory King: Didn't exist that work.
2:11:23
Rory King: I had a completely different thing.
2:11:25
Rory King: And so now that book is like the love child of us connecting, talking, building a friendship and a relationship, and it being my pictures, but his I don't know his not not his vision, it's like it doesn't feel like his vision, but his sensibility, how he sees pictures.
2:11:50
Rory King: And so to see that book, it's like things that I would never do, yeah, that were so resonant and beautiful, and then also other.
2:11:59
Rory King: Decisions that I felt like that's not me, that's not my world.
2:12:03
Rory King: But I think this is what happens when you work with publishers.
2:12:07
Rory King: Like you have to give yourself to them and accept that the work lives outside of you.
2:12:13
Matt Jacob: It's no longer which I think so many people have uh an issue with.
2:12:17
Matt Jacob: Maybe not an issue, but maybe a l a limitation in in that respect.
2:12:20
Matt Jacob: Um yeah, fascinating.
2:12:23
Matt Jacob: Oh I'd love to talk to you more about Gumsucker.
2:12:25
Matt Jacob: I don't want to keep you too long either.
2:12:26
Matt Jacob: Can you Aaron, can you tell us a little bit about what this week has given you or in terms of we talked a little bit before in terms of like expectations coming in here and as a scholar, was that more of a weight on your shoulders to come out of here with something a little bit more uh solid?
2:12:47
Matt Jacob: I'm not sure that I had any firm expectations out of it.
2:12:51
Matt Jacob: Like my practice has been so insular.
2:12:54
Matt Jacob: I think my main goal was just like coming here, finding the people who I can trust, who I know like want to see me succeed as a photographer and as an artist, and building relationships with them in hopes of being able to lean on them to help me develop my own practice.
2:13:17
Matt Jacob: How's I mean, uh I'm gonna put you on the spot, but how's it gone in terms of like what you're gonna go away with uh from the feedback but also connections here and the goal that you just talked about?
2:13:30
Matt Jacob: How are you gonna like just fucking unpack all of this and essentially move forward, right?
2:13:37
Matt Jacob: That's what we're try we're we're trying to do.
2:13:38
Matt Jacob: Any ideas?
2:13:40
Matt Jacob: I can't say that I know that yet.
2:13:42
Matt Jacob: Um I need I think I just need to keep looking inward within myself and figuring out what the fuck I want to say.
2:13:51
Matt Jacob: I keep coming back to this like feeling that with my work I want to write a poem and I need to what the f what's the poem gonna be about?
2:14:01
Speaker 19: Yeah, yeah.
2:14:03
Matt Jacob: Well, I've seen your work, I've also seen your work, both incredible artists.
2:14:07
Matt Jacob: Um thanks for being here, it's nice to meet you.
2:14:09
Matt Jacob: Thank you.
2:14:10
Matt Jacob: Um thanks for having a conversation.
2:14:13
Matt Jacob: Hey guys, uh as I hoped, uh give you a little bit more of the last evening.
2:14:19
Matt Jacob: Just had the little bit of a photo book fair, and uh here's Rory again uh presenting some of his what he's been working on this week.
2:14:29
Matt Jacob: Uh I'm not gonna disturb him right now.
2:14:32
Matt Jacob: Uh but yeah, a lot of books laid out.
2:14:35
Matt Jacob: I've bought and gone bankrupt a couple of times uh tonight.
2:14:41
Matt Jacob: Got some right bangers, and so everyone's just kind of spending the last night mingling.
2:14:46
Matt Jacob: Put Jesse in the corner.
2:14:48
Matt Jacob: Uh I won't talk to him, he's absolutely exhausted.
2:14:52
Matt Jacob: We've got Jesse over there putting his last little touches on the event, and then we're sitting down for dinner.
2:15:02
Matt Jacob: Um I was just doing a little uh video ward.
2:15:08
Matt Jacob: Uh that's Shana, she gave me a review the other day.
2:15:12
Matt Jacob: Um sometimes it can be a little bit awkward for sure, like just talking to some of these people because they're just uh very sought after, right?
2:15:25
Matt Jacob: So see like the likes of Brian over here.
2:15:28
Matt Jacob: Um just getting Brian and Matthew.
2:15:31
Matt Jacob: I want to grab Matthew before I go.
2:15:33
Matt Jacob: Um but this is really the beauty of the event.
2:15:37
Matt Jacob: We get to mingle with some of the best photographic artists in the world, and uh what a privilege.
2:15:46
Lindokuhle Sobekwa: Can I use your pencil for this?
2:15:47
Matt Jacob: Yes, just wish well.
2:15:49
Matt Jacob: Harrison signing a copy here.
2:15:54
Matt Jacob: That's not like that's not like real life, right?
2:16:02
Matt Jacob: No, it's not Marshall always giving uh always giving great advice.
2:16:06
Matt Jacob: Um Marshall's actually like uh hopefully he doesn't listen to this, but what a legend.
2:16:13
Matt Jacob: Um obviously I didn't know him when he was he was on the show, but uh having spent a lot of time with him this week, he is a true gent and a true star, and I'm so glad that I met him in person because one thing the podcast doesn't do is give proximity, it opens doors and it uh asks questions and um gives me access to have conversations, but it's it often surface level, and uh being able to meet these people has just opened up an even deeper level of conversation and um familiarity, which is extremely valuable.
2:16:50
Matt Jacob: Is that you you obviously like the giving back?
2:16:55
Matt Jacob: I mean, I can tell in this week that you really enjoy that that two-way um feedback process.
2:17:03
Matt Jacob: Yeah, and just like collaborating with someone, even if it's just for a quick 20 minutes, but it's like feeding off the them as much as just teaching.
2:17:10
Matthew Genitempo: I mean, yeah, I mean I I don't know how in in regards to the teaching aspect of it.
2:17:14
Matthew Genitempo: I've never been a I've never been a teacher, but um, and I I don't really have a desire to do that as far as like job stuff goes, but it is I I do like it in the these quick stints like this, but I mean honestly, it's like I was telling somebody earlier that I um I get I feel like I get a little jaded after all the books come out October, November, peri photo every year.
2:17:42
Matthew Genitempo: It's just so much, it's like huge onslaught of books and stuff, and it's cool, and I'm it's really exciting.
2:17:49
Matthew Genitempo: And then there's kind of a lull at the at the beginning of the year, January, February, and then I come here and it's stuff that you don't that's isn't hyped up all year, it's stuff you don't see online all year, and it's stuff that people are keeping a little bit closer to their chest.
2:18:01
Matthew Genitempo: And I mean it happens at least once or twice a day here that I see something that I'm truly excited about and I love talking about.
2:18:07
Matthew Genitempo: And it's just it's um, it's just one, it's it's very encouraging as far as the where the medium is headed, but also um just for you know uh selfish reasons, just it it it lights a fire under my ass, you know?
2:18:23
Matthew Genitempo: And I think I think it I think it goes both ways with the attendees as well, you know.
2:18:26
Matthew Genitempo: Forget, I was talking about this with a few attendees today.
2:18:29
Matthew Genitempo: Yeah.
2:18:29
Matt Jacob: Forget that the reviewers that we put on this pedestal, right?
2:18:33
Matt Jacob: Especially like before we get here, it kind of dissipates as we go to know know you guys.
2:18:38
Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah.
2:18:39
Matt Jacob: And remember that everyone's human, everyone's like still, even even you guys that we look at, look up to and these guys have made it, they've made some incredible work.
2:18:47
Matt Jacob: You guys are still wanting inspiration.
2:18:49
Matt Jacob: You you feed off that person, yeah.
2:18:51
Matt Jacob: Of course, and we just forget about that.
2:18:53
Matthew Genitempo: Yeah.
2:18:53
Matthew Genitempo: Well, I think that um, I don't know, I just from a personal standpoint, I don't ever want to get to the point where I feel like I'm leaning on anything or I'm comfortable anything and I'm not um challenging myself in any way.
2:19:08
Matthew Genitempo: Because I feel like there's things that I've, you know, I've only put out three books, but like I feel like there are there are things that I've done in those books that I could definitely lean back on and repeat and consider it like my style or whatever, but I don't know, I'm just not I'm not interested in that.
2:19:21
Matthew Genitempo: I'm just and and and kind of to bring it back to this thing.
2:19:25
Matthew Genitempo: It's like there's people that bring in stuff that it's like, how did you think of this?
2:19:30
Matthew Genitempo: You know, I how did you do that?
2:19:31
Matthew Genitempo: I like I'm always curious, it and maybe it comes from like them not being super in tune with either what's going on or they're not as well versed in the medium and they're not as like constrained as I am with like, oh, here's how things go, and they bring something new, and then I'm it just it just unlocks stuff, you know.
2:19:46
Matthew Genitempo: How many years now have you done this Chico review?
2:19:49
Matthew Genitempo: I think it's I think it's my seventh time, but I did the 2020 one that was online, but I think it's like my sixth time being a reviewer here.
2:19:59
Matt Jacob: What does it uh without being too trite, what does it mean for you each year?
2:20:03
Matt Jacob: Is this something that you like look for?
2:20:05
Matt Jacob: I know it's difficult, probably difficult to answer because a lot of it is, you know, you see your friends, yeah, you get to hang out with them.
2:20:12
Matt Jacob: Yeah, and I imagine you don't get to see those types of people in the same room together too often in the year, and a lot of it is the reviews, and like we talk about getting inspiration and just seeing new stuff.
2:20:24
Matt Jacob: Totally.
2:20:24
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
2:20:25
Matt Jacob: What else around that type of formal process uh excites you about this whole event?
2:20:34
Matthew Genitempo: I mean, it's funny that you talk about um like getting here and having any sort of uh uh uh I don't know, uh maybe nervousness or something that there's that there's like people on one side of the line and the other side of the line.
2:20:49
Matthew Genitempo: I experience the same kind of thing because I walk in and there's people here that I'm crazy about their work too.
2:20:55
Matthew Genitempo: Like I didn't know, I didn't know Odette England was gonna be here.
2:20:58
Matthew Genitempo: She's like one of my favorite practicing photographers right now.
2:21:02
Matthew Genitempo: And I guess that she um I guess either maybe she she hopped on last minute, but you know, I was coming out of the hot springs or something, and I was like, like, I love your work, you know, and I'm like a like I like I don't know, like a student again or something, just like, oh my god, like you have no clue how much I've spent time with your work and and how much I adore it.
2:21:22
Matthew Genitempo: So yeah, I don't know.
2:21:24
Matthew Genitempo: I I mean I can't speak for other reviewers, but I I feel like I'm in that same boat literally every single time, and it's cool to come here and see old friends that I haven't seen for a while, but yeah, I mean I still I feel like I still share that same excited nervousness that a lot of the attendees have here.
2:21:39
Matthew Genitempo: And I hope it always stays like that.
2:21:41
Matthew Genitempo: I don't know.
2:21:42
Matthew Genitempo: There's that like that old um like the adage um uh if you're the smartest person in the room, then you're in the wrong room.
2:21:50
Matthew Genitempo: And every single time I feel like I'm in the right room here, you know?
2:21:54
Matthew Genitempo: As as stupid as that sounds.
2:21:55
Matt Jacob: I love it.
2:21:56
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
2:21:56
Matt Jacob: How would you define like your review style?
2:21:58
Matt Jacob: Like, what do you you sat across from the table for someone and they're presenting their work?
2:22:01
Matt Jacob: What is it you're trying to look for?
2:22:05
Matt Jacob: Or do you just let it come to you and just react in the moment?
2:22:08
Matt Jacob: Or are you kind of piecing out like I need to see this, I need to see, you know, I'm gonna do this?
2:22:13
Matthew Genitempo: My I'm my to a fault, probably.
2:22:15
Matthew Genitempo: I I my just brain automatically goes to book to the book, right?
2:22:19
Matthew Genitempo: And um just because that's what I do.
2:22:21
Matthew Genitempo: And um so I think that's really positive for a lot of people here because they want to make books.
2:22:28
Matthew Genitempo: Uh but it's tough sometimes because that's like a pretty constrained way to look at work.
2:22:34
Matthew Genitempo: Um, I usually a lot of people sit down and say, well, do you want to hear about the work or do you want maybe just to look at the pictures?
2:22:41
Matthew Genitempo: And it's kind of a crapshoot because usually I usually I say go ahead and tell me about the project and I'll like look at stuff and kind of see what they're see where they're headed.
2:22:48
Matthew Genitempo: Because everyone's at all different walks at where their project is.
2:22:53
Matthew Genitempo: So um, yeah, usually I think too, I think maybe I should probably just look at the work and say what I'm seeing, but sometimes I'm way off, you know.
2:22:59
Matthew Genitempo: I could be way off and and and then it takes a while for us to kind of find each other.
2:23:03
Matthew Genitempo: Yeah.
2:23:04
Matthew Genitempo: Um, in 20 minutes, yeah.
2:23:07
Matthew Genitempo: So but usually the first couple days I I I just kind of go at it, you know, what are you up to?
2:23:11
Matthew Genitempo: What are your goals?
2:23:12
Matthew Genitempo: And then try to get them to um, you know, a little bit further than they were the 20 minutes before.
2:23:18
Matthew Genitempo: And then the last two days, um I like to ask the attendees like what they've heard that's been helpful because I just don't want to be repetitive and want to get them a little bit further, you know.
2:23:30
Matthew Genitempo: So it's like, hey, what have you heard that's been helpful?
2:23:32
Matthew Genitempo: Yeah, so that we can say yes, and then let's build on top of that so we can move it a little bit further.
2:23:37
Matthew Genitempo: Because if you know, there's been people where I've said, What have you heard?
2:23:40
Matthew Genitempo: and they say, Oh, this person, this person, and this person, this person all told me the exact same thing, and I don't want to be a broken record and just, you know, you know, tell them the same shit.
2:23:49
Matthew Genitempo: I think what I appreciate, you know, and thanks for giving me an informal review.
2:23:54
Matt Jacob: I think what I I think what I'm I hear from other reviewers as well that they find very helpful, not other reviewers, sorry, other attendees that I find very helpful with the reviewers, is if the reviewer can kind of meet them somewhere in the middle, yeah, if there's no harmony there, at least suggest, like what Brian did to me as well.
2:24:12
Matt Jacob: He just took me, like I I feel like I can give you other inspirations through other books.
2:24:15
Matt Jacob: Yeah.
2:24:16
Matt Jacob: I think that's really helpful rather than trying to impose, trying kind of like put a square peg in around.
2:24:21
Matt Jacob: Right, right.
2:24:22
Matt Jacob: And I think that's what you're really good at as well.
2:24:24
Matt Jacob: Like just knowing, just knowing your shit, yeah, and knowing where you can maybe direct someone, even if it's not through your own.
2:24:30
Matthew Genitempo: Totally, yeah.
2:24:31
Matthew Genitempo: I and I always try to preface it like, hey, this is just to my taste, and I'm giving you literally one answer from one point of view, and not even an answer, just like maybe a suggestion of where you could possibly guide this thing.
2:24:45
Matthew Genitempo: Um, but sometimes I'm way off, you know.
2:24:48
Matthew Genitempo: Like sometimes I'll you know, the during the the second couple days, someone will sit down and show me their work, and I'll immediately have like ideas, like immediately my head goes here or there, whatever, and then I'll ask, oh, what's been helpful?
2:25:02
Matthew Genitempo: And they'll say, Oh, well, Brad said this, or you know, or oh, dad said this, and I'm like, Oh yeah, no, like I was thinking, I was thinking way smaller than what this whole thing was.
2:25:13
Matthew Genitempo: So I mean that's always a good thing about asking too, because then it's like, oh shit, someone kicked the door open for this idea over here, so we can, you know, try to suss that out.
2:25:23
Matt Jacob: Last question before we go and have a beer.
2:25:24
Matt Jacob: Uh I'm keen to know who your inspirations were when you uh did you go to art school?
2:25:31
Matt Jacob: Did you go to photography?
2:25:32
Matthew Genitempo: I did, yeah.
2:25:32
Matthew Genitempo: I went to oh I went, my undergrad was in graphic design, but I um that's where photography kind of started because you have to take um, you know, like the uh I forgot what they're called, the extra classes or whatever.
2:25:44
Matthew Genitempo: So I I I had taken um three photography courses on top of my design classes because um I just like naively thought that um you that if like a designer was designing a project and there was photography involved that you were supposed to make the pictures as well.
2:26:01
Matthew Genitempo: So I was like, well, I should probably learn how to make pictures because if I'm like designing a, I don't know, a car ad or something, I gotta take pictures of the car or whatever.
2:26:08
Matthew Genitempo: I just that's what I thought.
2:26:09
Matthew Genitempo: Um so I was taking all these photography classes and that's kind of how I got started with that.
2:26:13
Matthew Genitempo: But I went I ended up going um about maybe uh eight, nine years after I did my undergrad to uh the program at the University of Hartford in it was there 2014 or no 2015 to 2017.
2:26:25
Matthew Genitempo: Inspirations?
2:26:26
Matthew Genitempo: Oh, um shit, right now?
2:26:28
Matthew Genitempo: No, no, no.
2:26:29
Matt Jacob: When you was when you were starting, like what kind of uh carved your your voice in that respect?
2:26:35
Matthew Genitempo: Just a quick man, I don't know.
2:26:37
Matthew Genitempo: Like what from the very at the very, very beginning, um I was literally I went to school in Waco, my undergrad, and so I was just like naturally photographing old buildings, neon.
2:26:47
Matthew Genitempo: Oh right, yeah, signs, stuff like that.
2:26:49
Matthew Genitempo: Because it's it's it's an old town.
2:26:51
Matthew Genitempo: And um it was funny because my the professor that was normally teaching the class, um, she was fine, she was a good teacher, but she I think she was pregnant, so she was on uh uh um leave, and so we had this uh grad student and that was into more contemporary uh photography, and so she saw all the stuff that I was shooting and she was like, Oh, you might like William Eggleston, and I was like, I don't know, I didn't know who that was.
2:27:15
Matthew Genitempo: And she actually she photocopied me the introduction to the guide, Sarkovski's guide.
2:27:21
Matthew Genitempo: And it was funny because she she should read this, and I read it, but there were like no pictures attached to it, so I was like, Oh well, this this sounds great, but I don't have anything to so then I went to the yeah, but I went to the library, and then that was kind of the um Eggleston was kind of the first love, and then Eggleston led me to Shore and Deanne Arbis and and Nan Golden and all these other people, and um it was just like the floodgate.
2:27:42
Matthew Genitempo: Now I don't look at I don't look at a lot of photography.
2:27:45
Matthew Genitempo: I mean there's there's like the heavy hitters, there's I come to this, I always make a a ton of new friends, and I keep up with their projects, and I'm always really excited about them, and that feeds a lot.
2:27:56
Matthew Genitempo: Um but yeah, mostly I still a lot of poetry.
2:27:59
Matthew Genitempo: I read a lot of poetry and then um just like looking at a lot of paintings these days, a lot of painting books and stuff like that.
2:28:05
Matthew Genitempo: Yeah, I go to the library a lot and just check out painting books.
2:28:09
Matthew Genitempo: Um as silly as that sounds, it's like I don't know, it it it lights a fire somewhere.
2:28:14
Matthew Genitempo: So all right, man.
2:28:15
Matt Jacob: Well, um I know I can speak for the other attendees to say thank you for your I I see you give so many people so much time, and uh we we're forever grateful.
2:28:24
Matt Jacob: So I do think the pleasure is all mine.
2:28:26
Matt Jacob: Thanks so much, man.
2:28:28
Matt Jacob: Thank you.
2:28:28
Matthew Genitempo: Yeah, seriously.
2:28:30
Matt Jacob: Alright, here we are.
2:28:31
Matt Jacob: This is it.
2:28:32
Matt Jacob: The final goodbyes.
2:28:33
Matt Jacob: Everyone getting the shuttle.
2:28:35
Matt Jacob: Quite a few people left this morning.
2:28:37
Matt Jacob: Beautiful day to be saying goodbye to such a beautiful place.
2:28:43
Matt Jacob: Um I hope to be back.
2:28:45
Matt Jacob: I hope I'm gonna be back.
2:28:47
Matt Jacob: We're gonna work hard to get back.
2:28:49
Matt Jacob: Um the beauty, I'm not sure if I said this before, but as an alumni, now that we're alumni, we we can come back whenever we want, basically, without having to apply and be selected.
2:28:59
Matt Jacob: So um, we can have the workshops or do reviews again.
2:29:03
Matt Jacob: So um quickly.
2:29:09
Matt Jacob: Because the week is done, and I'm sitting here on a flight somewhere between Chica and Home.
2:31:34
Matt Jacob: I wouldn't even go into it.
2:31:35
Matt Jacob: We've had flights cancelled, rebookings, and just a bit of a nightmare to be honest.
2:31:40
Matt Jacob: Um, but we're on the way.
2:31:42
Matt Jacob: And as such, I've had a few days to let everything settle.
2:31:47
Matt Jacob: Um, because like I've said before, when you're in it, you don't really process it, you just want to take it all in, absorb it.
2:31:55
Matt Jacob: Um, but now that I'm out of it a little bit, things are starting to land a bit differently.
2:31:59
Matt Jacob: And like I did say before, it's gonna take weeks, if not months, I think, to for me to really grapple with what just happened and really process it and really understand where I need to go next.
2:32:10
Matt Jacob: But looking back, I mean, I'll be honest, the first day hit me harder than I expected.
2:32:17
Matt Jacob: Um, the reviews were fast, mixed, and really intense.
2:32:21
Matt Jacob: I mean, the whole thing was intense for the first one to two days, and I didn't really know what I was walking into anyway.
2:32:27
Matt Jacob: If you think you're ready, and then suddenly you're sitting across from some of the biggest names in the industry, and they're pulling your work apart in ways you hadn't even considered or hadn't hoped for, but maybe deep down really knew.
2:32:41
Matt Jacob: But the biggest surprise wasn't necessarily these formal reviews, it was really how close you are to everyone and how accessible they are.
2:32:48
Matt Jacob: These are people from some of the biggest publishers, curators, galleries, editorials, and of course, some of the biggest photographers out there.
2:32:58
Matt Jacob: You know, we're talking Magnum photographers, people from the New Yorker, SF Moma, Trespasser, Blow Up Press, Latier, etc.
2:33:06
Matt Jacob: etc.
2:33:07
Matt Jacob: And they're just there at dinner, on the lawn, at the bar.
2:33:13
Matt Jacob: And they're so nice, you can just walk up to any of them.
2:33:16
Matt Jacob: And it's that access, these conversations outside the 20-minute formal slots that ended up, for me anyway, being the most valuable part of the whole experience and the most valuable part of my entire week, and will remain in my memories for forever.
2:33:35
Matt Jacob: So let's talk about the few the reviews anyway.
2:33:39
Matt Jacob: 10 reviews, 10 different people sitting across from your work telling you what they see.
2:33:46
Matt Jacob: And by the end of that day, one, one thing was painfully clear, and I mean painful.
2:33:51
Matt Jacob: My work wasn't cohesive enough or clear enough with what I was trying to express and trying to portray, not necessarily in.
2:33:59
Matt Jacob: Narrative, but and not in necessarily feeling.
2:34:03
Matt Jacob: Um so by the evening, I'd already cut a lot out, which is confronting itself, also exactly why you come to something like this, and I had to try and remember that throughout those first few days.
2:34:16
Matt Jacob: The interesting thing is, as the week went on, none of the reviews really contradicted each other at the high level.
2:34:26
Matt Jacob: They all understood what the work was actually trying to do and where I was coming from.
2:34:31
Matt Jacob: They just came at it from well, really, ten different angles.
2:34:35
Matt Jacob: And that's actually more useful than conflicting, I think, because it gives you this 360-degree view of your own project that you can't just get alone and that you can piece it all together.
2:34:50
Matt Jacob: The lovable Brad Zeller was actually the one who really understood me as the person behind the images.
2:34:58
Matt Jacob: He got the me in the work almost immediately.
2:35:01
Matt Jacob: And I'm not gonna lie, when he did, he he made me cry because of it, because that kind of empathy and understanding from someone who's seen thousands of projects and is a true expert in this type of thing, and that feeling of being seen and understood is something I've been searching for for so long now, and I don't know, it means something deeper than Brad or anyone could know.
2:35:26
Matt Jacob: So I want to thank him for that.
2:35:27
Matt Jacob: And that's part of what I'm trying to evoke with this work actually, and get to that a little bit later.
2:35:34
Matt Jacob: People like Matt Jenintempo and Odette England were incredibly valuable in a different way.
2:35:40
Matt Jacob: They pulled things out of my work that I hadn't seen or even thought about in the work or in myself.
2:35:49
Matt Jacob: And for that, gosh, I'm so grateful because it genuinely unlocked what my next steps are and got me really excited about them.
2:35:58
Matt Jacob: And then someone like Jonathan Levitt, who was a bit of a dark horse for me, he talked about the work as a piece of music, something I never thought about before.
2:36:07
Matt Jacob: Analogizing each image with like a specific emotional act and leaning into that way of thinking.
2:36:14
Matt Jacob: And like I said, I never approached my work like that before, and it completely reframed how I think about the work, what to include, what not to include, and how to sequence it all and edit it all together for this for this kind of one rhythm and emotion that I'm trying to get across.
2:36:34
Matt Jacob: The thing that's still sitting with me, and I mean really sitting with me, um, is this conflict of where this body and where this project and where this these images can go.
2:36:48
Matt Jacob: For so long, I've been doing a certain style of photography, certain subject matter, certain themes for which I'm kind of known for now, and I don't want to betray that because I love it and I'm good at it, but I also want to move into something into this kind of more evocative, more poetic uh style in that kind of visual storytelling.
2:37:10
Matt Jacob: And here's the irony: this project to the quiet ends is literally about the struggle of breaking away from old identities and that turbulence within that psychological experience of existing between places, both geographically and emotionally and metaphorically.
2:37:30
Matt Jacob: Of not quite being one thing anymore, but not yet being the other.
2:37:36
Matt Jacob: Well, I'm there right now, I'm in it.
2:37:40
Matt Jacob: I'm living the exact experience that this work is about.
2:37:43
Matt Jacob: How beautiful is that?
2:37:44
Matt Jacob: And I don't think I fully realised that until this week forced me to articulate it 10, 15, 20, 30 different times to as many people.
2:37:54
Matt Jacob: So let's talk about the people.
2:37:59
Matt Jacob: I mean, you're probably um thinking back gonna you've met a lot of them through this video and this episode already.
2:38:06
Matt Jacob: I connected with Odette immediately on the reviewer side, and that was really beautiful.
2:38:11
Matt Jacob: And then, of course, the old favourites Brian Scuterman, Matt Jen and Tempu, Brad Zeller, and people I'd spoken to before but never actually met in person, like Marshall Toe, Harrison Miller, and Rory King, who I'm gonna speak to more um in the next few months, I think.
2:38:30
Matt Jacob: So watch that space.
2:38:31
Matt Jacob: But the dynamic between all 80 attendees, as well as reviewers, was genuinely supportive.
2:38:37
Matt Jacob: Of course, you get the natural the natural like cohorts, natural groupings, same as like school, really.
2:38:45
Matt Jacob: You know, the cool gang, the all-rounders, the shy ones, the geeks, the awkward ones.
2:38:52
Matt Jacob: But the beauty of it was none of that mattered at all.
2:38:57
Matt Jacob: Yeah, it was it was visible, but none of it mattered.
2:39:00
Matt Jacob: Everyone was just great and just to hang with and and get to know.
2:39:05
Matt Jacob: But I made a conscious decision early on after day one to not try and meet all 80 people or all 110 people.
2:39:15
Matt Jacob: I wanted to go deep, not wide.
2:39:18
Matt Jacob: That's why I do this podcast.
2:39:20
Matt Jacob: Real conversations, real connections.
2:39:22
Matt Jacob: Otherwise, the week becomes just 80 different bits of small talk.
2:39:27
Matt Jacob: And I think that was the right call because it also meant I got to see some incredible work and really spend time and sit with it.
2:39:36
Matt Jacob: What about the setting and the review week itself in terms of the brand and the setting?
2:39:44
Matt Jacob: But if we're honest, the week's still a bit of a blur, but the settings do stick with me.
2:39:48
Matt Jacob: Obviously, an unbelievably stunning place.
2:39:52
Matt Jacob: The saloon bar was the main hangout and night, I didn't get much footage from there, nor the hot springs.
2:39:57
Matt Jacob: They were their own chilled world, and I couldn't or didn't really video in there, which honestly made it better, I think.
2:40:04
Matt Jacob: But I think the lawn area was the most symbolic space of the whole week.
2:40:09
Matt Jacob: We had great weather and it was open, warm, and approachable.
2:40:13
Matt Jacob: Everyone just gravitated there during the day and but in between reviews, and that's I think where the real Chico happened, you know, in the sun, guards down and no agenda, as it were.
2:40:25
Matt Jacob: For me, um, I took two roles of 120 medium format film during the week, so not much, nothing too deliberate.
2:40:33
Matt Jacob: Was so focused on conversations, curating my own work for presentation that camera took a backseat, really, which for me is unusual, but it definitely felt right.
2:40:45
Matt Jacob: It was really more about connections and conversations.
2:40:48
Matt Jacob: And Fee, she was incredible, she completely immersed herself, meeting everyone, making friends, just being the usual amazing social backstop that I always appreciate having.
2:40:59
Matt Jacob: So I appreciate more than I can say.
2:41:02
Matt Jacob: So if she's watching this, she's asleep right now, but if you're watching this, thank you so much.
2:41:08
Matt Jacob: Alright, so where are we going from here?
2:41:11
Matt Jacob: What shifted?
2:41:12
Matt Jacob: Has my vision for this project, Quiet Ends, actually changed?
2:41:19
Matt Jacob: Yeah, I think it has.
2:41:20
Matt Jacob: I have a much clearer sense already, I think, of what works within this theme and what doesn't and what kind of grounding the work needs, what more is needed in that respect for this.
2:41:34
Matt Jacob: Am I confident?
2:41:36
Matt Jacob: Honestly, after the first few days, no, I was much less confident.
2:41:42
Matt Jacob: Definitely an ego death.
2:41:43
Matt Jacob: Editing on day one, the realization that it wasn't cohesive yet, it's really, really humbling.
2:41:49
Matt Jacob: But now, with some distance and some more reviews, I'm more confident than I was before with Chico, definitely.
2:41:57
Matt Jacob: Not in the work as it is, but in how to make it something unique and powerful and successful.
2:42:04
Matt Jacob: And that's a different kind of confidence and more like faith and belief.
2:42:10
Matt Jacob: The process itself, the editing, sequencing, bookmaking, I have a completely new appreciation for all of it.
2:42:18
Matt Jacob: There's a whole creative life that happens after you press the shutter.
2:42:23
Matt Jacob: Really, the shutter is just like 10% of it.
2:42:26
Matt Jacob: I knew that intellectually, but this week I actually like felt it and experienced it.
2:42:31
Matt Jacob: I'm also excited to explore more creative techniques in the dark room, in Lightroom, um, and everything in post.
2:42:39
Matt Jacob: Things I wouldn't have considered before, so I'm excited to kind of dive into that and tackle those aspects.
2:42:44
Matt Jacob: But if I could go back and tell myself one thing before arriving with all of this, it's to not worry about the story or the pitch.
2:42:53
Matt Jacob: Don't worry about the deeper narrative.
2:42:55
Matt Jacob: Study how to piece different types of images together to build rhythm and journey and not be so immersed in this kind of deeper narrative.
2:43:04
Matt Jacob: A book isn't just nice images in a row, of course, it's it's architecture.
2:43:09
Matt Jacob: And I can see that now in a way I couldn't before.
2:43:12
Matt Jacob: It's just education and familiarity.
2:43:15
Matt Jacob: I also wish I'd printed the images better.
2:43:18
Matt Jacob: I brought a mixture of different sizes and paper types, and in hindsight, I would have been more consistent with that if I had to do it again.
2:43:26
Matt Jacob: Because the presentation does matter, it's the first thing a reviewer touches, and they'll ask why some things are different and why things are not.
2:43:34
Matt Jacob: Anyway, I want to wrap up.
2:43:37
Matt Jacob: Would I do it again?
2:43:39
Matt Jacob: I'm hoping I'll do it again next year.
2:43:42
Matt Jacob: I mean, in a heartbeat.
2:43:44
Matt Jacob: But I will say this is not for everyone, of course.
2:43:47
Matt Jacob: I mean it costs a lot of money, but that aside, if you don't have a specific body of work with real intention behind it, I don't think this is the place.
2:43:57
Matt Jacob: If you're not ready to hear hard truths as well, to have your ego and your heart ripped out in certain moments, then don't apply.
2:44:06
Matt Jacob: You need to be prepared to potentially start again, potentially to go back to the drawing board, and that's not failure, that's the whole point of this week.
2:44:17
Matt Jacob: So my advice would be to go deep, not wide.
2:44:22
Matt Jacob: It's my advice with everything.
2:44:23
Matt Jacob: With your work and with the experience, go deep, not wide.
2:44:28
Matt Jacob: Don't try to meet everyone, don't try to please everyone, research your reviewers deeply.
2:44:33
Matt Jacob: Choose eight out of the ten that will align with your work the most based off their own, based off their own work, and leave a couple maybe that will be so different that they can come at it from a completely unique perspective and unique angle.
2:44:50
Matt Jacob: Find your people, have the real conversations, take that time and be ready for the work you brought to look different by the time that you leave.
2:45:00
Matt Jacob: Jonathan Levitt said something during my review that I keep coming back to in the days since.
2:45:09
Matt Jacob: He talked about my project or any project, but when we're talking about my project, talk about it, thinking about it like a piece of music.
2:45:18
Matt Jacob: And he asked me, what would I want to listen to over and over again and why?
2:45:23
Matt Jacob: And what would I want it to make me feel?
2:45:27
Matt Jacob: I think that's the question I'm taking home with me.
2:45:30
Matt Jacob: Not what do the images look like, but what do they sound like?
2:45:36
Matt Jacob: What do they make you feel?
2:45:37
Matt Jacob: How can they ground you?
2:45:39
Matt Jacob: How can they take you off into a different world?
2:45:42
Matt Jacob: And am I brave enough to actually make that the work?
2:45:46
Matt Jacob: I think that was my week of the Chico review.
2:45:51
Matt Jacob: So in closing, I think the journey of an artist, I think everyone there is an artist.
2:46:02
Matt Jacob: The journey of an artist is a constant struggle and oftentimes a lonely one.
2:46:08
Matt Jacob: You live in a world full of questions and so much self-doubt.
2:46:12
Matt Jacob: You have moments of inspiration that keep you going, but the ebbs and flows can can often, I think they can often be really debilitating.
2:46:23
Matt Jacob: The creative energy and support though that I found at Chico Review this year, 2026, seems to be settling into my being in a way that I don't think will ever fade.
2:46:34
Matt Jacob: The place, the work, the people, the conversations, mostly the people, have become a part of the fabric of who I am.
2:46:43
Matt Jacob: Even now, just a few days from the end.
2:46:46
Matt Jacob: A part of the fabric who I will grow to be, and not just as an artist, as a human being.
2:46:53
Matt Jacob: So I want to thank everyone at Chico Review who put such an incredible event together.
2:46:58
Matt Jacob: Jesse may not have been the most accessible during the week, probably the busiest man I've seen.
2:47:05
Matt Jacob: So that was totally understandable.
2:47:07
Matt Jacob: And what he and more recently, the likes of Katie, have managed to build over the last 10 years now is honestly something truly special.
2:47:17
Matt Jacob: So huge thanks and respect go to Jesse and his team.
2:47:22
Matt Jacob: Because the amount of care, thought, and energy goes into making this week happen really shows in every detail and shows in the things you don't see or don't notice.
2:47:35
Matt Jacob: And to all the staff who kept everything running seamlessly, to every reviewer who gave their time and honesty, and to all 80 attendees, thank you so much.
2:47:44
Matt Jacob: And especially to those of you who took part in this episode, who let me interrupt to point a camera at you and a microphone in your face and ask you some real questions.
2:47:55
Matt Jacob: I hope it was enjoyable.
2:47:57
Matt Jacob: I hope it was helpful and interesting for you as well as the rest of the audience to watch and listen.
2:48:04
Matt Jacob: And on that note, I want to specifically thank Hannah, one of the this year's scholars, who I did actually record for her ins her insights and to talk about her work.
2:48:15
Matt Jacob: But the battery died about 10 seconds into us talking, and I didn't notice.
2:48:21
Matt Jacob: She spent real time with my images, um, not just a quick glance.
2:48:25
Matt Jacob: She spent genuine time, deliberation, and intent, and that's something you simply can't get in a formal 20-minute review, and that meant so much to me.
2:48:34
Matt Jacob: So thank you, Hannah.
2:48:36
Matt Jacob: I'm really sorry.
2:48:37
Matt Jacob: Um, Hannah was one of this year's scholars, and I'm really excited to see where her incredible work ends up.
2:48:46
Matt Jacob: Finally, I wish I got to chat with every person there.
2:48:50
Matt Jacob: There was way more people than I thought, and it was strangely difficult to just meet everyone, but there is something in me that makes me feel like in some way I actually did.
2:49:01
Matt Jacob: And if you're watching this and you were there, but we didn't get to chat properly, even if we didn't share many words, if any at all, I want to say thank you.
2:49:11
Matt Jacob: Because this week reminded me of something I think we all forget sometimes.
2:49:17
Matt Jacob: Although photography is an existentially solitary pursuit, the work we make doesn't have to exist in isolation because it lives in the spaces between us, in us, in the conversations, the glances, the energy, even the silence around the Chico lawn at midnight, a place for artists to be understood, to find connection, to be seen and heard long after they've gone.
2:49:48
Matt Jacob: And if photography is really about how we see the world, then Chico really changed the way I see mine.