Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host Esther Goldstein Interviews Steven Booker

Transcript

Guest Host Esther Goldstein Interviews Steven Booker · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist podcast. My name is Gamick
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  Speaker 1: person I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to
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  Speaker 1: helping those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank
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  Speaker 1: you to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting
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  Speaker 1: this show.
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  Speaker 2: Here everyone, I'm really excited to be on today with
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  Speaker 2: Stephen Booker, who is a therapist. We've gone to meet
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  Speaker 2: a couple of months ago in one of my trauma
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  Speaker 2: training programs. What I want to say is he has
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  Speaker 2: a really unique way of working with clients. Super excited
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  Speaker 2: to introduce you, Steven. Thank you for your time. Can
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  Speaker 2: you tell us a little bit about about you and
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  Speaker 2: your work? And yeah tell.
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  Speaker 3: Us, yeah, thank you for having me here. Stephen Booker,
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  Speaker 3: I'm a licensed professional counselor. I'm located in Mobile, Alabama,
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  Speaker 3: so bottom of the state, and I have been a
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  Speaker 3: therapist for actually this month makes seventeen years. And I
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  Speaker 3: love what I do, really enjoy the work that I do.
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  Speaker 3: I've worked in community mental health, I've even found myself
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  Speaker 3: in more vocational ministry, but find myself now since twenty
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  Speaker 3: twelve in private practice and really focus and specialize in
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  Speaker 3: the treatment of trauma. And so I am an EMDR
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  Speaker 3: certified therapist and approved consultant, which was kind of my
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  Speaker 3: introduction to really focusing on trauma, which then also opened
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  Speaker 3: me up to get trained in IFS. And so I'm
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  Speaker 3: a Level three IFS trained therapist, certified and also approved
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  Speaker 3: clinical consultant. And then around twenty nineteen, I also started
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  Speaker 3: working with an organization called the Islander Center that has
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  Speaker 3: a methodology that's kind of referred to as story work,
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  Speaker 3: but formally it's narrative folks is traumacare, and the focus
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  Speaker 3: of that is engaging story. And so I have found
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  Speaker 3: those three modalities to be really important in my personal
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  Speaker 3: and professional work and have kind of brought them together
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  Speaker 3: in a pretty integrative way and how I sit with people, And.
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  Speaker 2: That's part of why, Like when Guy McPherson invited me,
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  Speaker 2: you know, he always I've been on his podcast, Thank
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  Speaker 2: you Guy. To have to invite people to come on
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  Speaker 2: here right away, you came to mind. For those of
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  Speaker 2: you who don't know me, I'll just say my name
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  Speaker 2: is Esther Goldstein. I'm an anxiety and trauma therapist. I
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  Speaker 2: run a trauma training program and I am really excited
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  Speaker 2: about Stephen coming on because one of the things Stephen
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  Speaker 2: does and offers in addition to his practice is that
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  Speaker 2: he runs these men's retreats and on his website, I
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  Speaker 2: was fascinated because it's called what's it called? The story
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  Speaker 2: What do you call it?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, we call a weekend story retreat. We've kind of
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  Speaker 3: played with the name. Sometimes it's like a main story weekend.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, so the story Retreat. And I think
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  Speaker 2: what really made me pause is two pieces. One is
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  Speaker 2: that I don't in terms of the men Arena in
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  Speaker 2: terms of talking about like male mental health, but then
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  Speaker 2: also the element of what does it mean to really
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  Speaker 2: own our story? What does it mean to process our story? Obviously, Stephen,
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  Speaker 2: you're very skilled and very trained in a lot of modalities,
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  Speaker 2: and I think it takes a certain art to really
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  Speaker 2: be able to offer an experience to clients, to tap
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  Speaker 2: into a part of themselves that they have not yet
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  Speaker 2: tapped into. So I wonder if you could tell us
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  Speaker 2: my hope for today's Can you tell us a little
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  Speaker 2: bit about what it means like to own your story
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  Speaker 2: different than just kind of telling our story because people
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  Speaker 2: could repeat their stories again and again and not feel
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  Speaker 2: a shift and not actually make any progress. So what
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  Speaker 2: is it if we can just dive right in, like
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  Speaker 2: what does it mean to really own the story? And
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  Speaker 2: if you could tell us a little bit about about
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  Speaker 2: your work, and then we can look at like how
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  Speaker 2: the storytelling really has or can transform people's traumas, anxieties
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  Speaker 2: or patterns.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: When I hear you even say own your story, I
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  Speaker 3: think that there's a way that we can go in
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  Speaker 3: engage story that feels very like cut off from the neck.
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  Speaker 4: It's very cerebral.
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  Speaker 3: It's very like I just want to like understand or
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  Speaker 3: I want to just like have some analysis of the story,
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  Speaker 3: but really leaves everything that's held energetically below the neck
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  Speaker 3: and even around the body kind of out offline and
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  Speaker 3: disconnected from the story. And so part of owning the story,
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  Speaker 3: I think is really getting close to the story.
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  Speaker 4: Now.
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  Speaker 3: Of course, like some people like it makes sense why
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  Speaker 3: they don't want to get close to their stories, and
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  Speaker 3: so there has to be consideration for that, like what
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  Speaker 3: feels safe, what feels contained, what feels resourced enough to engage,
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  Speaker 3: But it's about being able to get close to the
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  Speaker 3: younger parts of yourself that really hold story that was
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  Speaker 3: desperate to be tended, desperate to be attune too. I
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  Speaker 3: think about like Peter Levine's quote about like trauma being
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  Speaker 3: like an absence of a compassionate witness, Like it's not
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  Speaker 3: the experience itself, it's that isolation. It's what was needed
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  Speaker 3: that was not offered in the presence of immense pain, heartache, harm,
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  Speaker 3: and so helping men in particular to own their story.
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  Speaker 3: Part of that is helping them to get closer to
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  Speaker 3: their bodies, closer to what is occurring as they tell
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  Speaker 3: their stories in their bodies, getting curious about what is
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  Speaker 3: their body saying in the midst of engaging those stories.
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  Speaker 2: What kind of people? What do you find like holds
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  Speaker 2: people back in general, maybe specifically men from coming close
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  Speaker 2: to their stories, because we all want to feel whole,
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  Speaker 2: we all want to feel alive. Is it that they
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  Speaker 2: don't know how to do it? Is it that they're afraid?
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  Speaker 2: Is it that they don't have the right facilitator? Like
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  Speaker 2: what do you think holds people back? And then I
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  Speaker 2: would you wonder what then, actually, what's the fire underneath
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  Speaker 2: people that actually propels them to then reach the help
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  Speaker 2: or to come to or retreat like yours, Like I
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  Speaker 2: want to understand that process.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's a really good question. I don't
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  Speaker 3: know that I have one answer. I imagine there's probably many.
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  Speaker 3: But what comes up for me when I think about that,
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  Speaker 3: there's so much need, but there's not a lot of template,
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  Speaker 3: and so like culturally, like there's a lot of especially
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  Speaker 3: in this cultural moment, we find ourselves and there are
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  Speaker 3: a lot of examples of really toxic masculinity, and there's
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  Speaker 3: just not a lot of template. Is like, what does
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  Speaker 3: it look like to engage with a more embodied telling
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  Speaker 3: of your story? What does it look like to engage
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  Speaker 3: and to celebrate like goodness of your masculinity and places
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  Speaker 3: whether there's heartbreak or even brokenness. And so without that template,
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  Speaker 3: I think there's just a lack of awareness or a
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  Speaker 3: lot of shame that's just kind of dissociated or like
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  Speaker 3: stuffed down in a way that people really want to
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  Speaker 3: hold a narrative about themselves that feels maybe safer than
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  Speaker 3: to really hold the fullness of their experiences, both like
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  Speaker 3: light and shadow. In that, I think I've trailed off
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  Speaker 3: a little bit from your question. Can you repeat that first?
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  Speaker 2: No, No, I'm actually thinking about like you're sharing in
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  Speaker 2: such a profound way, and I'm wondering, like, say, there's
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  Speaker 2: a person listening right now, okay, any like sexual identity,
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  Speaker 2: but like the and they're resonating with the concept of
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  Speaker 2: like they own their story or they're aware of their
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  Speaker 2: story and story can mean like past a belief version pain,
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  Speaker 2: and they relate to like the cut from the neck off,
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  Speaker 2: and they're disconnected from the energetic field. Like you're mentioning,
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  Speaker 2: what would be a step someone can start taking, Like
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  Speaker 2: what do you do on your treats? Why do people
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  Speaker 2: reach out like give us a little bit more Like
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  Speaker 2: I'm trying to imagine somebody comes, what give us a sample,
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  Speaker 2: like what's their struggle and what does it actually look
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  Speaker 2: like tangibly that allows them to then actually, yes, get
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  Speaker 2: a little closer to their story.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, certainly there are some people that find me
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  Speaker 3: and are really curious about the work because of maybe
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  Speaker 3: some affiliation or connection to the Islander Center or to
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  Speaker 3: internal family systems.
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  Speaker 4: Work or em d R.
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  Speaker 3: But in general, I think what often comes up is
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  Speaker 3: that there's crisis or there's something that is disruptive in
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  Speaker 3: their life and unsettling. It could be a style of
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  Speaker 3: relating or like a character strategy that's showing up that's
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  Speaker 3: becoming really problematic or costly, And there's been some curiosity
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  Speaker 3: as how did this come to be? Like how did
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  Speaker 3: that come to relate in this way? That is like
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  Speaker 3: it feels like as natural as breathing, and yet it
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  Speaker 3: is really creating a lot of chaos in my relationships
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  Speaker 3: and in my even way of relating to myself.
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  Speaker 2: So I think it like bring it home, like what
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  Speaker 2: kind of samples just to the general public, what kind
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  Speaker 2: of ways of relating are you finding that? Then people
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  Speaker 2: are like, oh, obviously, but it's actually causing me harm.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So for example, like a a workaholic situation where like
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  Speaker 3: I'm working all of these hours and I love my family,
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  Speaker 3: but like I'm aware also that I find a lot
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  Speaker 3: of life and work.
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  Speaker 4: I found a lot of validation and work.
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  Speaker 3: Maybe I feel more insecure in the realm of being
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  Speaker 3: a husband or being a father or being a partner.
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  Speaker 4: And so I love and want to.
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  Speaker 3: Spend that time, and yet I keep finding myself working
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  Speaker 3: sixty seventy eighty hours a week, and I'm also like
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  Speaker 3: starting to have high blood pressure and I'm starting to
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  Speaker 3: like my health my physical health to be impacted, and
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  Speaker 3: so at some point I'm just trying to figure out, like,
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  Speaker 3: for in this example, like what's what's happening here? Like
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  Speaker 3: can I slow things down and zoom out a bit
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  Speaker 3: and then begin to zoom in to find like where
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  Speaker 3: did this begin? How did this come to be in
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  Speaker 3: my world or my way of relating to the world
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  Speaker 3: in myself?
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  Speaker 2: So tell us how you walk people through the process,
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  Speaker 2: because I'm wondering, like, because I at the end, I
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  Speaker 2: want a better like if there's a one or two
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  Speaker 2: tidbits or takeaways, because what I'm already starting to hear
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  Speaker 2: is like one is, when you have a struggle, you
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  Speaker 2: might be detached from your story, whatever that story is.
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  Speaker 2: It could be like a loss or a pain point
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  Speaker 2: or something internally that's not process right or hasn't been
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  Speaker 2: given a space. So I would love to hear if
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  Speaker 2: you're open. I know you do a lot of this
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  Speaker 2: in individual work. I just wonder when it comes to
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  Speaker 2: let's say a retreat, what's the process or what's the
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  Speaker 2: format that people walk through.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you just kind of want me to give you
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  Speaker 3: like an idea of like start to finish.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, if that's a yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no,
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  Speaker 2: I'm happy.
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  Speaker 3: So, so someone reaches out because there's something there's a curiosity,
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  Speaker 3: or maybe it's like a partner that's like, you've got
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  Speaker 3: to do something. This looks like it might be a
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  Speaker 3: really good jumping off point, or maybe they're being referred
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  Speaker 3: because their therapist is like maybe an intensive experience would
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  Speaker 3: be really helpful to maximize some time and potential progress.
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  Speaker 3: And so whenever they reach out, you know, I just
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  Speaker 3: give them some prompts around like where's the place in
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  Speaker 3: a formative story that feels like it still has a hold,
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  Speaker 3: like like some like you feel kind of tangled up
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  Speaker 3: in it in some way, and it has something that
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  Speaker 3: needs engagement that you do not feel totally well with.
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  Speaker 3: It may just be some energetic charge that still lingers there.
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  Speaker 3: And so I'm not inviting people to bring like their
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  Speaker 3: absolute top worst trauma. But sometimes people will take some
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  Speaker 3: big risks in these spaces because they're really just longing
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  Speaker 3: for connection and he in presence. And so that person
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  Speaker 3: has given some you know, directions around writing a narrative. Typically,
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  Speaker 3: you know, two to three pages is what we're looking for.
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  Speaker 3: Too small of a narrative. Sometimes it almost feels like
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  Speaker 3: there's a way they're not wanting to be engaged too
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  Speaker 3: large of a narrative. It's like I'm just going to
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  Speaker 3: take up all the space in the room and you're not.
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  Speaker 3: And so like we're trying to offer a lot of
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  Speaker 3: containment and even what they write and how they write
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  Speaker 3: that narrative, and then we invite them into a very
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  Speaker 3: first of all, like nurturing weekend.
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  Speaker 4: We have someone that comes that does all.
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  Speaker 3: Of the cooking, make sure that there's coffee around the clock,
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  Speaker 3: that their snacks available twenty four to seven. And so
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  Speaker 3: they come, they get settled in, they find their place
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  Speaker 3: to stay, and I go first myself in the person
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  Speaker 3: that I do these retreats with, and we share our
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  Speaker 3: own stories because we don't want to invite people someplace
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  Speaker 3: that we're not also willing to enter in and to
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  Speaker 3: invite them into within our own selves. And I find
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  Speaker 3: it's fascinating the things that still will come up in
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  Speaker 3: these spaces with new faces and new sets of eyes
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  Speaker 3: that are seeing my story. So it's really a beautiful experience.
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  Speaker 3: But I will read my story and we go over
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  Speaker 3: some like containment ideas for the group and group rules
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  Speaker 3: and everything, and then I invite the men to engage me,
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  Speaker 3: like what did they notice? What did they notice in
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  Speaker 3: their bodies as I was reading? Where did they feel
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  Speaker 3: me close to my story, like close to the emotion,
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  Speaker 3: close to that younger self? Where do they feel me
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  Speaker 3: kind of pull back or feel really distant? And so
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  Speaker 3: through that process the invitation is too deeper, truer naming
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  Speaker 3: in the story, And I think, what so much of
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  Speaker 3: this work is in my opinion, it's just like an
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  Speaker 3: invitation to grieve what hasn't been grieved or what needed
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  Speaker 3: to be grieved and held in safety. And so that's
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  Speaker 3: kind of the first event and then the rest of
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  Speaker 3: the week.
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  Speaker 2: Weekend this is like profound Can I plase you for
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  Speaker 2: a minute?
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  Speaker 4: Of course?
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so it's this weekend. So it's this weekend. You
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  Speaker 2: and you have a cool facility, you have someone that
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  Speaker 2: runs it with you. It's a group, beautiful place. Food,
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  Speaker 2: so there's like physical nourishment as well. And the writing
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  Speaker 2: of the story is basically think about something from your
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  Speaker 2: formative years or something that is like coming in Like
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  Speaker 2: basically you're writing a story just kind of saying the
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  Speaker 2: story of something that feels unfinished. And kind of just
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  Speaker 2: writing I just want to so, and then just writing
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  Speaker 2: it out, and then writing it out is basically like
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  Speaker 2: giving it language obviously also like giving it a word
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  Speaker 2: and a narrative, and then you share and the other
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  Speaker 2: person then do people and then they notice internally somatically
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  Speaker 2: what's happening. And then do people go around the room
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  Speaker 2: and share their story of what they shared so they
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  Speaker 2: get that support from each other.
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  Speaker 4: You mean yes, it's yes.
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  Speaker 3: So throughout the weekend we have like a rotation where
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  Speaker 3: everyone has about a forty five minute period where they
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  Speaker 3: read their story and then it's engaged by the group.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, okay, this is what I'm asking because it's almost
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  Speaker 2: like it's not just me myself, it's me myself and
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  Speaker 2: then others. And then there's getting that because you're essentially
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  Speaker 2: saying that when we are acting in a certain way
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  Speaker 2: or acting out or avoiding or behaving in a certain way,
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  Speaker 2: there is unconsciously, tell me if I'm getting this right,
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  Speaker 2: an untended to part or story or dynamic that has
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: been untended to. And so what you're saying is this
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  Speaker 2: weekend or this process is the way of you getting
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: closer to that untended part that's actually bleeding out or
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: shutting down or acting at these behaviors, and so as
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  Speaker 2: we tend to it, this will often soften, so the
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  Speaker 2: symptoms will actually soften, Okay, profound, okay, carry out, Yes.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you.
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  Speaker 3: I love how you put it. And so throughout the weekend,
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  Speaker 3: like that's that's what the work looks like. Now, I
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: we'll say, we book a very large rental on the
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: Gulf of Mexico right there overlooking the water, so like
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: there's beauty and in the midst of nourishment. Now it's
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: usually an off season, it's usually in January, and so
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: it's sometimes cold. Actually this past year wasn't that that
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: cool at all. We but you know, we have fires
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: in the evenings. We have lots of built in downtime
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  Speaker 3: for reflection, for journaling, for board games and cards, resting, napping,
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: taking walts on the beach, going for the run, like
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  Speaker 3: whatever is needed to just tend to your nervous system
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  Speaker 3: and your body throughout the weekend. So it's not like
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: bam bam bam bam bam. Like we have these focused
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  Speaker 3: times in the morning, and then we have a focused
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  Speaker 3: time in the evening, and then the space before in
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  Speaker 3: the middle in between, and then in the evening is
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  Speaker 3: really just for recreation, play, taking in beauty, connecting, having, Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: just points of connection with the other men that are
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  Speaker 3: a part of it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. And one thing I do want
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  Speaker 2: to say is it was really important, as you mentioned
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  Speaker 2: a lot of times, there's grief powerful because right they
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  Speaker 2: talk about how like anger is a secondary motion to sadness,
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  Speaker 2: and sadness is often grief for loss. And I find
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  Speaker 2: it really powerful how because we act out grief if
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  Speaker 2: it's ignored or pain, it's powerful. How you're seeing a
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  Speaker 2: lot of us is grief and actually with the right
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  Speaker 2: kind of compassionate witness, right, we can't avoid grief, but
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  Speaker 2: we can actually process it or be with it. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: carry on.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And so like the whole So it starts on
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: a Thursday evening, and then we have a full day
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  Speaker 3: Friday and a full day Saturday, and it's all moving
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  Speaker 3: to a Sunday morning time. And that Sunday morning time
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  Speaker 3: is really focused on affirmation and blessing and just honoring
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  Speaker 3: of the men. And that is such a deeply profound time.
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  Speaker 3: Because I learned this from a mentor of mine years ago.
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  Speaker 3: His name is Wendell Moss, and he talked about you
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: can't bless what you haven't grieved what it's cost and
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  Speaker 3: that just really likes stuff with me, because I think oftentimes,
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  Speaker 3: like so much of our goodness, it's been really costly too.
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  Speaker 3: It's set us up for envy, it set us up
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: for strife, it set us up for heartache or disappointment,
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: or consumption and exploitation. And so to be able to
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: honor a man in his story, you have to enter
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: into the story, and to enter into the story, you
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: have to also like join them in grieving their goodness,
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: their beauty and what that's cost them and how that
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: has been really connected in some ways to their harm
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: and their heartache. And so that time of blessing is
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: really what we're moving towards. Not that like it's the
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: ultimate pinnacle, but like it is kind of the climax
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: of the weekend.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Wow, say that sentence again, you can't bless.
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm trying to think how he puts it.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: You cannot bless what you have, not what you have
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: not also grieved, like what or how it has been
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: costly whatever it is that you're blessing. So like, let
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: me say it a different way to make it clear.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: You can't bless goodness and beauty without also grieving what
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: it has cost that person.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, can do you give us some examples?
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, for one example, like being like a
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: very loving, nurturing, caring person and then finding also that
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: like there's been such exploitation of that. Maybe it was
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: like triangulation with their parents, and then there's also like
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: envy from the other siblings because of how that person
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: found a way to get some delight, some attuments, some
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: connection with caretaking of a parent which was a really lovely,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: like beautiful gift and gosh, it's been so costly.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Aw, and give me another one, Give me another example.
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: I'm just trying to think on the fly. Let me
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: think of some them really quickly. Yeah.
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: I think about like someone's energetic presence, like they just
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: have a charismatic way of being in the room where
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: people are just drawn to them, and sometimes that can set.
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: Up for.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: Like envy, like people will hate them for that because
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: they want that and they want to kill them for
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: the fact that they actually have that.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate what you're saying because I feel like
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: what you're doing here on both levels, and like writing
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: the story and then the celebration is you're naming the
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: nuance on the layers that often we skip over. And
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: it's almost like I'm thinking, even, let's say somebody who's
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: a workaholic right or is very driven, and it's almost like,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: maybe it's incredible because it helped them get out of
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: if they were raised in a very poor environment or
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: they didn't have choice points and the price point of
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: needing to build from survival has also been right, maybe
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: like anxiety or exhaustion or fear. And so it's like
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: I think about somebody's living in a beautiful mansion without
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: acknowledging the sleepless nights or the fights or the fear,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: whatever it is. It's like we want tocknowledge both and
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: then you could bless it, which is what I so appreciate.
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: And a lot of yeah.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: And so the thing is is that I think a
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: lot of times like it's so much easier to write
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: a narrative of harm, but to also find like where's
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: their goodness and beauty in this person in the story
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: that may actually be somehow connected to the harm that
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: they've written about, Like that that's where getting into the
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: particularity of the story and the entering into grief, so
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: that you can also like really honor and affirm that goodness.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Uh that that that's where I think the intersection really occurs.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you love most about running the retreat?
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah? Oh my goodness. I mean here's the thing. It's like,
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: it's a long weekend.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're probably not sleeping a lot because we're sitting
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: around the fire until way too late and then having
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: to get up to get breakfast because we got it
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: our first session that morning.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: And you know, being away from my family is not ideal.
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: I'll have two young kids and I love being with
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: them on the weekends. But it impacts me, like it
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: does something for me so selfishly, I really just love
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: the embodied experience. I mean I haven't had a lot
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: of templates or examples of healthy masculinity, and so to
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: both cultivate and co create a space that welcomes and
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: is very hospitable and inviting to that type of a
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: I would say, in some ways like more redemptive masculine
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: presence and connection. And then to also like like I
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: don't escape that either, I benefit from it, and what
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: I'm actually helping to co create and cultivating.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm asking because I find like being a sarvice like,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I think that clients change me almost more than I'm
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: changing them. You know. It's like, and as you're talking
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: about this, I'm like, this is so powerful, and I
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: think there's some real beauty in the way that you
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: can almost bring yourself into the story. What would you
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: say to someone? I guess I have two questions, Like
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: one is like actually specific to male and masculinity, and
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: one is more just like all of us. But say
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: there's like a male who feels like, yeah, they don't
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: have a template around like healthy masculinity, or they have
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: like a lot that they haven't grieved or celebrated. Is
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: there like a question or something that they could reflect
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: on for themselves other than finding you and joining your program,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: which we'll talk about soon, But what can they do,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Like if they are a person is feeling in a
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: lost space, something for them to think about to read
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: like what would help?
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Mmm, I want to sit with it for a second
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: and just kind of take your time. I think for
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: men especially, there's a lot of pressure to kind of know,
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: like to have answers, to have direction, to have purpose,
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: and it feels really vulnerable to say I don't know,
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: or like to feel directionless or even in some way
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: it's powerless, like to admit that, like there's a lot
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: of shame, I think, particularly because of so many of
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: the legacy burdens and things that like masculinity holds in
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: and of itself, especially in our culture, and so like
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: I think to just invite men to notice, like where,
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: even if it's hard to name it with someone else,
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Like where do you feel most fragile? Where do you
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: feel that insecurity? And the tendency is push that away
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: focusing on something else, or to like get really big, right,
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: to kind of inflate, to conflate, like to take on
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: a posture that feels almost larger so they don't actually
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: have to face that place of insecurity or fragility inside.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: But I think, like what would it look like? So
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: the question would be, like what would it look like
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: to just sit with that insecurity of fragility and to
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: just see if you can get enough space inside to
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: listen and to wonder what does it want you to know?
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: If that fragility or that insecurity could speak, like what
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: would it say? Maybe it's just like I'm scared, I
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: don't know what to do. I'm going to die, and
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: to just really pay attention and to get curious about
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: like how long has that been there inside?
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: When did that start?
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: And I think if there can be and I mean
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: this is so much of the work of so many modalities,
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: like if there can just be enough space and open
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: and curiosity, I think everything we need to know is
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: just waiting to be engaged and held.
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: Of course there's complexity that can come up, but.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what therapy is. But I think it's a
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: beautiful starting point because it's interesting, Like I think the
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: toxic part of anything about specific masculinity is almost like
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: you keep saying space, which I love because it's almost
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: like when there's clutter or rushness, there's actually if you
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: really want to have like healthy masculinity or healthy power
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: or guidance or direction, the only way is if there's space.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: And so what essentially you're saying. Obviously when deeper things
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: come up, they would need a counselor and to do
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: the death work. But I think even beginning what you're
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: saying is say, like go where it's uncomfortable, Go were
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: what your body is asking because when we escape it, it
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: actually haunts us or like drops us right or like
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: I right when you're saying, kind of you.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: Feel very hijackss in some ways.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: You have hijacks right aving to to make that bigger.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: That was that was really helpful.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: That was profound.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: Well, and I love what you're highlighting about space because
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: that's what this is like this weekend is space. Like
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: we encourage people to try to put away to any
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: distractions and phones and social media and to really just
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: have time for presence and connection but also deeply reflective times.
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so it is kind.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: Of like creating space that's hard to find in their
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: you know, nine to five or everyday worlds.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and well the space also inside because what you're
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: saying is almost like surround almost look at it is
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: like there's something in pain or fear based and some
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: of us where like you said, have a tendency but
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: specifically men like get bigger to like poove or to
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: avoid or to shut it down, and you're basically think, actually,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: let's just like circle around it and give it some
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: attention because we're actually going to get really important information.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Now for some that might be enough for others, they
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: would need to do some like deeper one on one
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: counseling even if we're not retreat And then what would
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: you say to some one who is it weird that
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: they have a story, because like does it need to
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: be a trauma story or could it just be a
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: story that's seering through them? Like can you tell us
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: a little bit about this modality? I guess I want
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: to like for anyone who's maybe feeling disconnected or like
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: how does somebody start getting a little closer or get
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: to understand their story a little bit? Like what would
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: you is there that prompt that you shared or is
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: there something to think about that can help someone get
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: a little closer what's going on inside?
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: I mean there's a lot of debate around like what's trauma?
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: What's not trauma? And you know, I mean I don't
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: know that we have to categorize anything. I think to say,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: like where's a point of heartbreak? Where's a point of shame?
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: Where was there a point of maybe like striving even
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: like well what was that about? Like to just notice,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: like what what do you hold inside? Especially when you
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: reflect back, A lot of these stories are not always
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: but off and are intersecting with family of origins, So
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: like when you think back to like what was your role,
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: how did you operate and how did that come to be?
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: What feels what does that feel connected to you?
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Know?
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: Maybe you were the chosen one and the golden child.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: Maybe you were the scapegoat. Maybe you were the one
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: that was always in trouble. Maybe you're the one that
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: dad was harder on than the other sibling. Or maybe
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: mom was really emotional and needy for you and dad
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: saw that.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: What was it like for dad to see that?
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: What was it like for Dad's eyes to be on
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: you as Mom's reaching for you to comfort her? Like
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: so many different possibilities, But I just think what holds energy?
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: What holds charge in you? That feels familiar?
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: Because I think these things just reenact again and again
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: and again and again. And that's the beauty of this
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: work is because I think the more that you do it,
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: there is a softening I think is what you used earlier,
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: and like symptoms soften and it doesn't mean that it
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: totally goes away, but like you're not bound to those
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: familiar patterns and roles, and it creates more agency, It
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: creates more choice and it creates more clarity than in
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: those moments you're like, oh there that is again, and
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: can also like in real time in some ways like
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: offer care and reparent yourself in that moment of like, oh,
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: of course that's showing up right now, I see that,
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: And I don't have to live my life just playing
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: these same scripts over and over again, these same narratives.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: I find this so profound because I feel like what
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: happens is is that a lot of we all talk
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: about telling our story, we all talk about like awareness,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: and many people and some are not aware. And so
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: if you're not aware, the first step is to become aware.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: But what we're speaking to right here is the people
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: who are aware. But you're going a layer deeper where
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: it's like we are unconsciously. I see it in my
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: own life right times, where we repeat certain patterns. And
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: what you're saying is I love the sample you gave about. Okay,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: obviously it could be like the chosen child or the
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: one carrying the shame, or the scapegoat or the troublemaker
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: or the ignored one. That even the sample that you
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: went in on on, like if mom was emotionally needy
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: from you and Dad had to like was constantly tracking, right,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: his eyes were always on you because there's this energetic
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: pull from her to you, and how we felt about that,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: that implicit and unconscious dance was encoded in you and
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: your persona right, and your energy and how you carry
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: yourself and a struggle you're having right now might often
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: be related to that unconscious enactment, and if you want
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: to undo that, it is so important to become aware
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: of that. So even just that awareness and then even
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: noticing your pattern. Obviously could you deeper work like somatically
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: or with e MD or parts work, But I think
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: even just starting what I'm loving about this conversation is
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: even starting to look deeper at the story and the
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: way that it ngrieved something on you and how to
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: kind of almost write like on almost imagine something like
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: a leash from that. Yeah, I'm just steel powerful.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: Well, especially when you think about and I'm not trying
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: to like go too much deeper into that scenario, but like,
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: have you ever considered what was it like for you
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: for mom to pull you in close?
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: How did you feel about that? Probably really ambivalent?
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: Right, because in some ways I don't want this and
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: I feel really powerful that she's choosing me, and so
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of complexity. And then to be curious
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: about what was when you looked at Dad's face, Like
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: what was his facing to you in those moments? What
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: was there envy and him? Or was there a way
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: that he was going to make you pay for how
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: mom was pulling you in or was he relieved because
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: he didn't have capacity? And like there's just so many
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: places that these stories can open up.
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: But then the curiosity is like.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: And how has that impacted every relationship with a man
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: that you've had so many implications and curiosities to hold
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: in story?
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And when and when we do this work,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: actually the shifts are really out, Like we start seeing shifts, right.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: I think the exciting part for us as therapist is
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: like as we do this work, the beauty is that
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: when we start seeing those shifts and like doorways open
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: or dynamics soften or I know, that's what excites us.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: So before we wrap up, Stephen, can you tell us
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: how people could find out about working with you one
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: on one or for your retreats?
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: Tell us, yeah, tell us, yeah, So you can go
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: to my website. It's www dot Booker b O O
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: K E R l PC dot com and my email
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: address is Stephen st e v e n at Booker
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: LPC dot com.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Amazing And in terms of clients one to one clients,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: what states are your licensed to work and if people can.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so I'll offer consultation to anyone nationwide, but
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: specifically for therapy work Alabama and Florida.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, Steven, this has been such a delight this conversation.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm actually going to reflect on doing some
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: of my own story work from this. I really appreciate
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: this conversation and your time.
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: Thank you. It really phils. Yeah, just a deep privilege.
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: Thank you would invite me.
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: Thank you feel grateful.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah,