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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Wrong Man Sent To Prison For Murder · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Quody bags, but Joseph's gotten more. The worst job I
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: ever had was working in a grocery store. I hated it.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: I hated every single day I went to work. And
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: I think probably one of the reasons I hated that
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: job so much is, first off, it was labor intensive.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I was very young, so they had me on the
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: front and bag. This is back when people actually bagged
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: groceries and took them out to your car for you.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: I hated that, and I'm not a big people person,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: so you know, it wasn't my thing back then. And
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: then I hated having to come in at three point
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: thirty in the morning to unload trucks. I didn't mind
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: so much doing the stocking. I just hated unloading the trucks.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I really did. And my god, the managers horrible, horrible.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: But that was many decades ago, and here I am now.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: But you know, I want to talk about a case
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: today that actually originates by a relationship that was formed
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: in a Kroger supermarket. I guess love bloomed, but unfortunately
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: it ended in homicide. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: his body backs. Did you ever have stock shells? Dave
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: get Did you ever have one of those jobs?
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Joe, I am one of those people who I had
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: an idea of what I wanted to do with my life,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: what career path I wanted to be on, and then
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: found a way to begin doing it at the age
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: of fourteen.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: That was to be on radio.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: And I actually wanted to be on the radio doing
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: baseball games, calling them, you know, yeah on first and second,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: no outs, bottom of the ninth, Joseph Scott Morgan steps in.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: That's what I wanted to do and with yeah, because
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I didn't think playing ball was going to work out
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: for me. So anyway, I did that. And I've actually
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: I said it many times. I've actually never had a
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: real job. I've worked in radio or in my entire life.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: So well, I got to tell you my.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Goal when I was a little boy, I wanted to
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: be an archaeologist. I always that was because I love history.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: I do like I love digging in the dirt, which
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: I got to do, you know, helping helping forensic anthropologists
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: throughout the years. They called me a professional when I
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: go out there, cease being a death investigator and I
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: became a shove leaner, which means that if you're working
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: around forensic anthropologist slash archaeologist, you're there to do their
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: scut work. And so I'd be taking the shovelfuls of
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: soul and putting it into the sifter and what you
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: called it, a shovel leaner, A shovel leaner. Yeah, yeah,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: so okay, most of the time that's applied to people
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: from the dot, you know, they're leaning on shovels. Yeah,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: I was. I was a professional shovel leaner. But yeah,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: not too many roads lead away from the local pigly
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: wiggly to a career in archaeology. So unfortunately I had
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: I had to start, I had to start out there.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: But it put gas in my car, right, you know,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: so I am grateful for it, but it was it
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: was probably I preferred. I really did prefer working in
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: the moork to work in the grocery store. Yeah, I
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: really did.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: I respect people that have those jumps, yeah, because I
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: know that it's like, I don't know what it's like
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: clocking in, and I'm thankful for that. I worked hard
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: to not clock in. I worked hard for that. But
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I've admired people who do that, can go in and
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: do something like that day in and day out and
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: find satisfaction and and build from it. And in this case,
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: we're actually dealing with a young couple. We're talking late teens,
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: and they meet at a Kroger and they actually are
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: they're in this really lovey dovey stage, the kind where
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: people are really infatuated with one another and they're just
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: old enough where they're outside of that puppy love you
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: get when you're fourteen and fifteen before you can drive,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: and you know, that's a different infatuation than it is
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: when you're nineteen twenty years old. You're out of high
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: school and you're in college or moving forward with your
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: adult life. And so when you're in that infatuated state,
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: it can kind of be sickening for those who are
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: not in that state.
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: Come on, you know it, just stop.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: That's where they were, and that's where this couple, Andrea
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Ilberg and her boyfriend Casey Grondin, that was where they
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: were in their relationship. They were in that lovey dovey
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: I can't stand to be a minute. You know, where
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: they'd like go to sleep holding the phone kind of thing,
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: you know, right right on their pillow.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: That.
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So anyway, for those.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: Well hey, wait, hang on now, I remember falling asleep
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: on the phone talking to Kim when we were in
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: that dating phase.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: And it.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: You know, now she just says, you know, I'll fill
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: her elbow and she said, do you hear anything I said?
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Are you awake? You know it's gone from you know,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: that was so sweet to you know, are you listening?
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, it changes, like you said, man,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: it changes over time and it goes through phases like that.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: But I don't think this relationship necessarily worked out the way.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe both individuals planned for it too. They were kind
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: of a strange And by the way, this this actually
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: happened a loath these many years ago, to the east
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: of Flint, Michigan, in a town called Mayfield Township. Sounds
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: very Mayberry like to me.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: You're actually talking about, like, man, what a week and
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: a half, two weeks before Thanksgiving twenty eleve and Andrea
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: is house sitting for her aunt and uncle. And you know,
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: that's one of those things that you know, people do
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: still do, I guess in certain areas, you know, And
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: she's there and she's got her boyfriend. Hey, you come on,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: you know, she's like, what nineteen twenty years old and
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: he's nineteen, and.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: Hey, come on over and let's watch a movie. You know,
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: I got the house to myself, come on right, right, Yeah,
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: And that was.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Their plan, and so he's all excited about it. Casey
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: is and he gets a message from her saying, you know, no,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: it's off. Don't want to do it. And it was like,
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: because he went to the door, I think, didn't He
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: go to the home and knocks on the door. She
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: doesn't answer. Her cars don't answer.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't answer at all.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And he's like, I'm at the right address, you know.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: And then he gets a text message from her phone
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: that says I'm not going to do it. We're not
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: doing this to and so he left and he was
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: so disappointed he thought she was breaking up with him
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: that he said he went home to his house and
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: basically crawled in bedd and cried for three days. Now
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: nineteen year old man saying he went home and crawled
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: in bed and cried for three days. Gotta be honest, Joe,
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: that's not something I would admit to.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: But you know, I don't. I don't think so maybe
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: for a couple of hours, I don't know, but not
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: for a protracted period of time like that. Plus all
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: that crying leaves you quite dehydrated as well. So I
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: just I don't think. I don't I don't see myself
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: doing that. And look, I know that you know, these events,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: particularly when you're young, can be absolutely soul crushing. And
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: this is another thing. When you're that young, you are
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: not sophisticated enough to actually read the room. That you're
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: easily fooled. And I think a lot of it. And
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I guess you don't necessarily have to be young to
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: have that happen. But when love is involved and you're vulnerable,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: you know, you you know, your heart is like an
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: open target, so it can really, you know, it can
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: really impact you to a great degree. And of course,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: you know, Dave, what do we always talk about? What
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: do we always talk about? Man? And I've preached this
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: over and over again relative to suspects, you're going to
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: be looking at those intimate partners, you know, in any
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: kind of case. So this young man, this young man,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: you know that he's let everybody know that he was
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: involved in a relationship. And let me tell you one
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: more thing about the grocery store. All right, everybody at
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: the grocery store would have known that they were in
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: a relationship. They're not like keeping the secret. Families know
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: all of this sort of thing. But Dave, I've got
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: to tell you this, this takes a dark turn really
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: really quickly.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Well, okay, you know what she doesn't all right. I
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: want to go back to Casey for just a minute,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: because he expected them to have a really nice date
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: night and it ends up being she's not there, her
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: car's not there at the house, and so in his mind,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: she's breaking up with me because he got a text
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: an hour later, you know, and he goes and cries.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: Well, when nobody can get up with her. The last
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: text from her phone was to him. He said, it
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: wasn't a.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Normal text from her, and that's kind of what sent
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: him in the direction he went.
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: But the thing is is that.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: When nobody could get up with her the next day,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: her dad was like, we got to find her. You know,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: she's not answering her phone, she's not at the house,
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: and her car is not here either, so they began
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: looking for her right away. It wasn't where I'm trying
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: to think of how we go through the expression of
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: you got to wait a couple of days, you know,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: before you really start looking. This was pretty quick because
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: she was twenty years old, and she was connected, and
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: she did have this boyfriend she was really infatuated with.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: So when she's not where she's supposed to be house sitting,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: her car's not there, there was an immediate let's go
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: find her. Now, my first thought would have been go
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: to the house, the house that she's house sitting, and
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: go look through that house. But then if her car's
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: not there and the door is locked, are you going
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: to go in? I don't know, because apparently that wasn't
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: their first thought, they being those who decided to look
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: for her. But early the next day, her car was
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: found abandoned on a nearby road, and that's when when
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: they realized her how her car was abandoned, Then we
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: need to go look in the house, and that's what
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: they did, and they went inside the house and what
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: they found was the type of horrific thing you take
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: to your grave, you never forget the site that that
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: those and I don't know. That doesn't say exactly who
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: found her, Joe, and I'm wondering, I'm guessing it had
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: to be somebody very close to her.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and immediately, you know, you would call the police.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine the horror that would run through your veins,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: that would make the hair on the back of your
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: neck stand up, that would literally crush your soul to
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: see this beautiful young woman tied to a chair in
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: the basement of her aunt and uncle's home, having sustained
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: an execution style gunshot wound to the back of the head.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: You know, I've never had anyone ask me this question. However,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: I will give you the answer to the question that
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: no one has ever asked me. What would be my preference?
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Endoor scene, outdoor scene, endoor scene. Every time for me,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: it goes to this idea of containment, and you almost
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: have an indwelling barrier that's set up to a certain
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: degree that prevents loss of any kind of evidence. You
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: have to think, though, with this young lady, and from
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: what we know from this horrible homicide that took place
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: all the way back in twenty eleven, that there would
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: have been a significant amount of trace evidence at the scene,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: either adjacent to her body or throughout the house. And
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: they've never really released how extensive her injuries were. We
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: do know that she was, and they've termed it as
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: being executed essentially after being tied down. Why would you,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: I guess this is a big question. What would be
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: the purpose behind tying this young woman to a chair
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: if you just wanted to end her life? What would
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: drive a perpetrator to want to sit her down? The
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: only thing I can really think of, and I would
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: imagine that the police did as well, Dave, is they
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: would view this as perhaps torture of some kind or
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: a I don't know, an inquisition perhaps directed at her.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I'm going to control you. You will remain restrained in
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: this position. I want answers, and I want them now.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: And if those answers are not given in a satisfactory manner,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: we're going to blow your head off or we're going
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: to do grievous harm to you. And that's kind of
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: what this smacks of. So when you have someone, I mean,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: let's fink my theory. Yeah, sure, go ahead.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: I thought it was. He's done.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: The individual has done whatever they're going to do, and
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: they have tied her to this chair to say, look,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: you're not going anywhere. I'm going to leave, okay, And
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: once I get done, you can try to get yourself
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: out and you can go. But I'm leaving now just
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: to calm her down. And then once she's calm and
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: realize that he's leaving, boom shot to the back of
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: the head.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's possible. I think one of the things
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: I'd like to know that we know that she's bound
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: to the chair, I'd really like to know if if
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: she was, if she was, you know, blindfolded anyway, you know, like,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: for instance, if there was someone that if we go
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: with with your idea here that if there was someone
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: that she knew that was doing this, wouldn't they want
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: to blindfold her so that she wouldn't have any knowledge
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: of who they were, But that would imply that they
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: had taken her by surprise, you know, so that they
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: couldn't be identified if they were going to let her
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: go free. But she could still recognize voices as well.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: And for whatever reason, someone was driven to h to
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: commit a homicide. And it's not like she was being
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: there shooting her to wound her, Dave, this is a
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: this is a headshot, all right, So the intent there
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: is to end her life. There's no other way to really,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: you know, explain that and contain down there in the basement.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: That also goes to another point. I think, you know,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: for those of us that have basements in our home,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: the sound quality in the basement is not the same
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: as it is throughout the rest of the house. So
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: if you take someone into a basement, you're kind of
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: sequestering them to a location, you know, because people can
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: shout and scream, because you know, many times basements are
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: at least partially, if not totally, underground, So you're, you know,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: you're kind of insulated from sound escaping. And if you
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: want to do anything down there involving torture, you can
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: because most of the people are not going to hear
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: it that are in a right now. If you're up
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: on the first floor or the second floor, that sound
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: has a real chance of traveling out. So would would
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: they have known about this? The perpetrator that showed up
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: to the house. And remember, if we're talking about intimates,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: If we're talking about intimates, this is not her domicile.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: This is actually the domicile of her aunt and uncle.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: So how did the perpetrator know that the house even
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: had a basement in it? You see what I'm what
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: I'm saying a kind of familiarity, you know.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: On my word, No, I you know what, now, I
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: understand why this case got messed up because everything that
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: you're talking about, Joe, the different things you have to
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: expect in an investigation, are still question marks here because
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: you the only thing we know for sure is twenty
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: year old and Andrea Ilbert is dead, tied to a chair,
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: shot in the back of the head. That's all we know.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: In the basement of the house, which was this somebody
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: who was familiar like her boyfriend, somebody who was invited
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: over there like her boyfriend, that maybe downstairs was where
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: they were going to have a you know, I don't
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: know their date, even though she was house sitting, so
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: being in the basement really doesn't matter.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: But maybe he's there.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: And I mean, I'm trying to think like you're saying,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: because I can't make sense of it at all. I
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: mean at all, Joe, this is really afusing.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it truly is. And of course the first person
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: that the police are going to look at is going
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: to be this boyfriend. And you know, and once I'm
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: sure that once he starts spilling his guts about this
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: and starts talking about how he felt like he was rejected,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: you know first, you know, right out of right out
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: of the gate. You know, they're looking at this guy
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: really really hard for this. They're wanting to know. Yeah,
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: they're they're wanting they're wanting to try to get as
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: much information from him as possible, and they're going to
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: be assessing the nature of the relationship. And just to
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: understand this, if you're doing a history with somebody like this,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: you're going to take them back. You know, how did
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: you guys first meet? Well, we know that we've established
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: that they met at work. How long have you been
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: seeing one another? And suddenly the question has become progressively
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: more uncomfortable. You know, have you guys been having trouble?
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Have have you gotten into an argument? Did the argument
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: is physical? Yeah? Recently recently?
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, last night you guys got Yeah, you were supposed
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: to be over there watching a movie, having date night
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: and wait a minute, the text says no.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: So what do you think about that, buddy?
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: I mean yeah, And it's an out and out rejection,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: And so you're thinking, if this, if this kid has
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: any kind of of anger that's built up over this,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: you know, what was it we said early on Dave?
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: This plays back into it. He goes in, and he
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: begins to cry and cries for this long protracted period
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: of time by his own admission. Okay, and I know,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: you know, you can make a light of it, but
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: if he's wounded, he's wounded emotionally over it. And so
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: in rejection, Amen, every every I don't know anybody that
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: hasn't been rejected before, and particularly it's a very powerful thing.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: And so you know, the police see see these breadcrumbs
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: along the way, They're also going to want to know
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: where you involved in a physical relationship with her, and again,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: you know, talking about how things become progressively more uncomfortable.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Then they go out to all the peripheral people. Did
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: you you know here at the front, at the front
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: of the store where the cash wresters are, did you
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: folks that worked these cash wrestlers, you ever see them
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: get into a fight up here? Were they ever angry
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: at one another? Did any of that happen? Are there
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: any instances? And oh, one more thing, is it okay
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: for people to date that work here? Can they date?
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: You know? What's the policy about that? That sort of thing?
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: So you have to consider every bit of this. But Dave,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: I got to tell you when they work this case.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: They worked this case and the boyfriend is identified as
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: the number one suspect in this thing. Man, he not
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: only was he identified, he was actually arrested. Yep, dude,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: he was charged and convicted on this thing.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: Carrogation video is rough.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the you know, the police, the police as
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: they're going through this process are pressing him, pressing him, pressing.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: And if you're young and not very worldly, uh, it
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: always amazes me that people that want to fight with
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: cops on the street to get into you know, these
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: verbal verbal contests with cops. You know that you can
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: go to there's a technique that's taught that's taught in
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: uh and you go. You don't get it necessarily when
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: you're going through the academy, but there's actually a course
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: that's taught and I remember it very well.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: It's called verbal.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: Judo and it it talks about how to either de
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: escalate a situation or how to press the buttons of
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: an individual. It's kind of a rudimentary way, you know,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: to do this, and you know, cops make their living
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: by doing this. You know, that's why attorneys say, keep
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: your mouth shut, don't say anything. Because you're not as
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: you'll never be as good as the cops are. There
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: might be a few that are out there that can
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: go toe to toe with the police, but every time
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: you say something, you're adding more fuel to the fire.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: That's why you know, every attorney that I know that's
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: a defense attorney is going to say, keep your mouth
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: shut as for your phone call, and don't agree to anything.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: And unfortunately, in this case, this young man not only
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: did he buckle under the pressure, Oh Joe Dave, he
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: was convicted and they sent away to the state prison
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: for life.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Joe for life. Him all I could think of.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: And I wanted to ask you this because you know
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: what it looked like. You know what it looks like
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: to find somebody tied to a chair with a gunshot
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: in the back of the head. This nineteen year old
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: kid doesn't were the detectives able to sit him down
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: in that room and say, do you think maybe when
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: she shot you down, that you might have blacked out
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: and maybe you did harm her and you don't remember it,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: but maybe it happened, and just maybe you did go
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: in there and see something and that's caused you to
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: forget all these horrible things that you've done because they're
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: telling this kid you can go home. Just look, man,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: we just got to get this and you're going to
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: be able to go home. And I will tell you
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: this goes back to you said lawyersy don't talk. Here's
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: why this kid you said it already. Chart arrested, charged
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: with murder at trial, convicted, sentenced to life imprison Joseph
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: Scott Morgan and this kid they got him to admit.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: He wrote down that he entered the house, saw Ilber's body,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: assumed she committed suicide, and then moved doc gigs in
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: the room to make it look like she hadn't harmed herself.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: I got to write that down.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Nne. Yeah, makes no sense whatsoever. And yeah, you were
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: talking about applying pressure. You know, in that narrative that
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: you're giving there are also physical things that can be
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: done where they're not necessarily striking you. But I'll give
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: you for instance. Okay, let's say one of the first
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: things that they ask you when you're in that interview
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: room is, hey, man, you want a bottle of water.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: And people think that's very benign, but what they'll do
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: and they'll give you as much water as you want okay,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: And what happens when you drink water, Well, particularly me
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: at this age, I'll tell you what happens when I
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: drink water. But at that particular time, you know in
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: his life, you know, he's he's ten, he's confused, he
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: knows that he's here, he's being questioned there. You know,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know, not necessarily him, but there are these
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: instances where you're giving water. Yeah, look, and the people
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: that are doing the interview can see that you're becoming
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: more uncomfortable because you've got to go avoid You've got
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: to go to the bathroom. And it's almost like a
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Columbo moment where they say, yeah, we're gonna let you
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: go to the bathroom, but wait one more thing. Let's
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: go back to this point in time. So all the
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: while that internal pressure is building up in your bladder.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: That's one of the little tricks. So keep your mouth shut,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: don't drink any water. So, you know, you begin to
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: think about this and think about, well, why in the
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: world would he admit to this, Why would he Was
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: it because the police pressured him into it, or or
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: was it because he actually did it. So day with
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Kenneth Grondon, who by the way has been convicted. Now
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: he's he's essentially, you know, taken off to state prison
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: where he is going he begins to serve a lifelong sentence,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: no possibility of parole at all. He's going in, as
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: they say, he's going in for all day. All right, Well,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: two years.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Into evicted by a jury.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: You want to add that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: just suggestion. It's not just the police, you know, and
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: do the whole thing.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Man and had a jury, they sat a jury, they
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: presented the case, the evidence they had came out and
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: this at the time, I'm of the murder. He's nineteen
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: years old. A couple of years go by and the
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: man is convicted. Joe, He's convicted by a jury of
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: his peers, not just a sitting judge. And that means
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: something to me because this kid, he didn't do it.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: We know that ahead of time. That's why we're doing
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: the story. But thank god, Joe that there were other
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: people who did not believe he was guilty because he
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: was able to appeal, and when they did look at
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: the information, they're like, wow, this, I think we might
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: have got this wrong. Somebody along the line got this wrong.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Because he's sentenced in twenty sixteen, and it's twenty eighteen
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: when everything starts to come together for him. But he's
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: been in jail for he's been in prison, man, I mean,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: what's it like when you go to prison, Joe.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I thin it's the county lock up. I'll put
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: it to you that way.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: It's five foot ten.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he is five foot ten. And listen. One of
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: the reasons, and this comes into play that we know
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: his height, Grindin's height, is the fact that a bit
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: of the information that was used in this case to
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: convict him was the fact that he was he being grinding,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: was identified that as using the victim's credit card, and
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: also that they have him doing this. You've got these
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: experts that have come in and they look at this thing.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: They say, look this, this person that you're saying is
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: at the you know, at the ATM with herst stolen card,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: you know, withdrawing money. This person's like six one six two.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Grind is five ten. And what they determined was that
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: was that not only that, but also the police had
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: violated what's referred to as Bender's rule, which just thumbnail here,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: which states that a suspect must be told when an
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: attorney has been retained. So it's at that point in
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: time that you know, all you must cease and desist
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: with what you're doing with the suspect that they have
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: legal counsel, they will be there too, you know, to
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: offer assistance. And so anything that comes after that notification
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: is inadmissible Dave. So you know, he could he could
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: have admitted to anything. But if you break that particular rule,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: then all of that stuff is, any information gleaned, is
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: going to be non admissible, and that that's what happened.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: And then you couple that with the videography evidence that
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: just doesn't marry up, you know, with Grondin because he's
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: kind of of a you know, he's kind of a
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: stocky guy. You know, you look at him, he's you know,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: kind of muscled. The older photographs of him, you know,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: he's kind of muscled up and that sort of thing.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: And this actually led Dave to him being released from
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: prison and sent home and placed in house arrest. Now
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: they haven't overturned.
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: It, but he was not free to do what he wanted.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: No, huh no. But they send him home. He's out
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: of the joint.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: Right thankfully, thankfully. But Joe.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Now it goes back to you've got physical evidence that's
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: got to be present whenever there is a shot to
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: the back of the head.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Yea.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: And I want to go back to that scene because
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: wouldn't there have been some type of physical evidence left
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: behind by the killer And wouldn't that killer take something
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: with him or her? Would they not leave something behind
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: and take something with them?
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, I.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Cannot get past this because you're really in close proximity
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: to somebody, Yes, you know, to tie them to a
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: chair and you know, and then shoot them in the
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: back of the head. I'm just trying to figure out why,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: how is it possible that we stopped investigating and went
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: after this one guy because he was the low hanging fruit.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a low hanging fruit. And here's something
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: that's kind of fascinating to me. You collect, and Dave,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: what I'm i about to tell you this type of
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: evidence is very intimate evidence. You go to the trouble
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: to work the scene down, and you know, you're the
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: aunt and uncle's basement where she was house sitting and
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: found of course executed. You collect evidence at the scene
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: that is intimate. And the reason I say intimate it's
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: not in a sexual sense. It is an item that
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: you place in your mouth that DNA evidence can easily
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: be transferred to. There are tons of these cases out there,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: and that evidence is that said evidence is collected at seeing,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: it's taken to the police station, and it ain't never tested.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: I'm always amazed in these cases, you know, where things
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: can go untested. You know, you don't get me on
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: my soapbox about rape kits, and you know, because of costs.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: I think some of its costs and some of it
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: is And here's the downside of being quote unquote thorough
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: it scenes. There are certain detectives out there and crime
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: scene texts that want to take everything okay, And don't
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: think that, you know, being a death investigator, you know,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: robs you of your humanity or a crimising tech or
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: a detective, because when you go out to scene and
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: you collect everything at the scene, what are you going
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: to do with it? Well, you don't have the budget
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: to test everything that's there. So you look at all
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: of the items that you've collected, what's gonna what's going
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: to have the highest problem outcome, what's going to be
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: the most benefit to us? And we'll retain the rest
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: of stuff. Well, that thing that they retained that was
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: never tested, Dave, it's a cigarette bud. And so what
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: do we do well for those that have never smoked cigarettes,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: if you've got a filtered cigarette, every time you put
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: the scene in your mouth, and you've got you know,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know where they call it a micro knight,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: the a filter or what. That's what they used to
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: call it back in the sixties. Uh, well micro knight,
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Mike micro k not what is it? My micro knight filter?
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Cancer cancer sticks, another nail and coffin. You're transferring through
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: saliva your DNA into what amounts to almost like a sponge.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's rich. And the outer circumference of the
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: cigarette butt as well. You're wrapping your lips around it.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: So if you've got saliva on your lips that sit
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: in just your tongue or your teeth. If you've got
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: saliva on your lips, that's going to transfer to the
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: outer cylinder of this thing. And it was never tested.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: And guess what they had this piece of evidence. They've
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: got this kid who has been released and put into
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: house arrest. My thought is that they've always suspected that
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: there was at least one other person involved in this,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: and they never followed.
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: Up on it.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Well, enter onto the stage our friends at AUTHORM, and
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Dave I got to tell I got to tell our
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: friends the story behind me picking this case. I saw
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: the case and it made no reference to AUTHRAM at all,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, Wow, this is really a wacky case.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Dave and I ought to talk about this, and I
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: made it through like the first two thirds of the article,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, DNA solves pops up.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: You know, most of the cases that you and I
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: talk about with authorm are cases where we've got an
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: unknown individual and they're finally identified after see authorm has
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: multiple utilities, Dave. It's not just a matter of trying
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: to discover the identity, which to me is one of
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: the most noble things that can happen. But this utility
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: that they have, this patented methodology that David and Kristen
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Middleman have developed at AUTHRAM, can help solve these cases
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: as well. So if there are peripheral actors there and
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: they have something like a like a cigarette button, I
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: can only imagine a DNA scientist pun intended here with
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: salivating over this, you know, because of how rich this
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: is going to be and what you can extract from it.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: And you take that data and you plug it in
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: to this forensic genetic genealogy database. With these open so
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: open sources that they have access to, you're going to
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: get a hit. And they did in this case, Dave.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: And you know, when looking at this, Joe and you
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: mentioned them having the cigarette. But from the beginning, you know,
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: the only thing I can think of is that while
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: they did consider that they were probably more than one
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: person involved, but they get somewhat of an admission of
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: guilt without having to test the cigarette butt they go
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: and get a conviction by a jury and a sentence.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: I can see them not testing it, spending the money
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: to test it, because they've already got it.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: It's done.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Is we got the murderer, he's in prison, but the
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: minute he's out, the minute there's a problem. I'm a
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: little concerned, you know that there wasn't somebody that was
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: yelling and screaming, hey, look we got stuff to test.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: I hate that it took this long for this guy
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: to get his name cleared. I hate that he had
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: police sitting on him at nineteen years old, and they
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: were not being the way they should have been. There
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: should have been somebody there Joe that said, hey, there's
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: a lawyer outside waiting for you to talk to you,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: which is exactly what happened while they were grilling him.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: They knew it, Yeah, they didn't tell it.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Well, I got to stop you there, man, I got
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: to stop you there because Okay, this is going to
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: be very disheartening for you to hear. Yeah, he's tethered
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: in his home still and guess what what, Yeah, he's
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: still tethered in his home. And come on, and the
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: author he's up there are going to be filing new
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: charges against him, against him, yes, against him, in addition
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: to the person that they believe is the purp in
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: this case, who for some reason, I think that the
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: local constabulary believes that there is a connection between Grondon
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: and this other subject that we're going to talk about.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: How about Chadwick. Yeah, Chadwick Mobley has now pleaded guilty.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: He has and he pleaded nolo contendre, which means it
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: is as good as saying I'm guilty. And by the way,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: they you know, the family, the family of this young
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: woman were very found that very dissatisfying because he was
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: never if you plead nolo, they're not going to compel you,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: apparently to admit to what you've done, and which is
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: something that I think is key, particularly in our society.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: If you see that the evidence is so overwhelming and
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: you plead nol, it's not the same as saying I'm guilty,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: because under those circumstances they can compel you to allocute,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: at least on some level. But he was not compelled
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: to do that. So you've got this fellow who, by
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: the way, has essentially been on the run for many years.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: If I'm not mistaken. He was actually tracked down in Montana,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: which is where.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: When they watched him for a while.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they had the info and they were having
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: trouble getting anything from him. You know, that they could
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: test to see if his DNA did match, and they
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: finally did get it, but it took some time. And
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: once they did and as soon as they questioned him,
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: he bolted. You know, he knew, he knew what he had, well,
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: he knew what was going on.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he knew what was going on, and I can
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: only imagine, you know, when if he's got counsel when
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: he begins to stare down these numbers that Authorm would
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: have generated, these astronomical numbers. Uh, they're gonna be looking
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: He's gonna be looking right down the barrel of this thing,
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: understanding that the chances that he's going to get off
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: on this are slim and none. So he just rolls
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: over and literally when there is no trial, he comes
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: in pleads nolo to this thing, and the judge hands
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: down a sentence on this guy, Dave of life in
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: prison without possibility of parole.
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: You know, this case is ugly, It really is.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: At this point, I feel sick to my stomach for
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: the family of the victim here. You know, the one
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: thing you have left after you lose a loved one
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: is you have answers.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: You know you need answers. We need to know what
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: happened and.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Why there has to The why really just helps us.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: I think doesn't mean we agree with it or like it,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: but at least there was a reason. They don't have
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: a reason. They don't have an emission, They don't have
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: anything that allows them to go to sleep at night
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: saying I know what happened to my loved one and.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: Why I don't know that.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: I just know that her boyfriend got locked up and
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: now he's not locked up anymore. Another guy who actually
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: pled no contest is now in the joint, but they're not.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: There is no you know, you and I don't use
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: the term closure because I don't believe it's a real terms. Yeah,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: I think it is, and you know, if you guys disagree,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: we understand. I understand that, but you know, I just
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: don't think there is. Sometimes there's an end, but even
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: that end is hollow.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: It's not achievable. It makes it you know, that term again,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: you know, it gives the impression that everything's going to
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: be all right and that you will have closure, you
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: close that chapter of your life and you move on.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: And that's just not it's not the way it works.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: It's bad. It's bad wording. And you know, look, there
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: there's going to be a lasting, you know, impact of
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: this case. First off, can I tell you what really
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: disturbs me about this? Going back to Chadwick Shane Mobley
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: that has been arrested pled NOLO and has been convicted.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: He was at the time, he was working as an
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: emt in Pontiac, Michigan. So there's that proximity. I think
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: what I'm still trying to understand is what is the connection,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: what is the actual connection between mobilely growed and more
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: importantly to me, this poor young lady Andrea. I want
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: to know how all of those kind of triangulct together
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: and this you know, what would what would compel a
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: person to participate in this behavior like this that brings
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: about an end to a life. You know, he had
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: worked as an emt up there, so he he would
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: have had this idea of proximity to those events which occurred,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: you know, like I mentioned earlier in this little this
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: little hamlet outside of Flint back over to the east.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: And additionally, he had taken on a job Dave of
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: at this point in his life of being a long
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: haul trucker, so you know, when the investigation led to him,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: he was going to try to dispose of anything that
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: might tie him back in his truck and went to
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: some efforts to try to, you know, destroy these things.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: But the one thing that you can't destroy is your
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: DNA molecule that you're toting around with you. It doesn't matter,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: you know, how many dirty towels you have in your
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: in your in your cab of your truck. It doesn't
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: matter if you've got food stuffs that are left behind.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if you know you're shedding skin off
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: of your scalp and you wipe all that stuff up.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: If that's even possible, that genetic code that you have
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: within you can still be paired up and matched with
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: that genetic code that was on that cigarette, and those
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: two things are blended together to give you a result,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: or not blended together, but compared and that you know,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: those numbers are, as I've said before, absolutely astronomical, and
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: they lead back to him. But again, this case is
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: going to require a lot more because this young man,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: according to what I have been reading, is still going
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: to be recharged in this case. So it would seem
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: to me that they're going to do this for one
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: or two reasons. They're either going to say that, well,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: there's other things that we know about this case that
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: you guys don't know, or maybe it's that they just
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: want to save face for having, you know, led to
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: a conviction of this man and put him away. And
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: still even though he's not in the joint, he's still limited.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: He's not free to move about. But listen, now, that
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: this case, at least to this point, has been solved.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: We have to keep in mind that it was solved
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: by the efforts of those authorities that felt that it
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: was in the best interest to dig deeper and try
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: to determine, you know, whose DNA was on on that
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: cigarette putt and of course that leads us back to
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: author It's important that any of you out here within
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: the sound of my voice that are interested in helping
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: to solve crimes, helping to solve mysteries, please do yourself
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: a favor and go visit dnasolves dot com and they
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: have got a myriad of cases that are out there,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: but this is a self funded endeavor. They need money
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: in the pot in order to move these cases forward.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: And anything you choose the case, maybe it's something the
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: story is compelling to you, or maybe it's in proximity
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: to where you live. You choose that case, you donate
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: to that case, and when they hit that trigger mechanism
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: for those funds, which is roughly seven thousand to seven
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: seventy five hundred bucks, that case will begin to move
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: forward at that point in time and maybe, just maybe
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: because of your donation, someone will have answers I'm Joseph
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body Packs
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: H