Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1247 - Juggling Career and Parenting: Bite-Sized Advice from Google VP Sarah Armstrong

Transcript

#1247 - Juggling Career and Parenting: Bite-Sized Advice from Google VP Sarah Armstrong · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: How do you raise a child as a single mum,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: go through a divorce and still become the Vice president
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: of Global Marketing Operations at Google. Global Marketing Operations at
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Google Vice President Sarah Armstrong is that person. Also the
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: author of the Art of the Juggling Act, a bite
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: sized guide for working parents. Today, I'm a Happy Families
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: podcast where we give you real parenting solutions every day.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. I talk with Sarah
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Armstrong about her book and about her life experience. So, Sarah,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: the main reason that I wanted to talk to you, well,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: there were several reasons that I really wanted to talk
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: to you. Number one, I don't know anybody who's ever
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: been on this podcast with a CV like yours. We
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: have vice president of Global Marketing Operations at Google. You're
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: a partner at McKinsey, worked for the Coca Cola Company
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: in global marketing for twenty years, a career at Leo Burnett.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. I mean, I'm saying blah blah blah.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: But most people can't even comprehend having a CV like this,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: So that's that's huge. But secondly, Kylie and I run
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: this pod. We've been married for nearly thirty years, you've
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: been through a divorce, and you're a single mom. In fact,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: you've raised your daughter Grace primarily as a single mum
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: while you were building that impressive resume. And so I thought,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: we've got single mom, we've got divorce, and we've got
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: this incredible resume. How can I? Oh, Plus, you've got
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: a brand new book that's just come out. It's called
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: the Art of the Juggling Act, Bite Sized Guide for
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: Working Parents by Sarah Armstrong. We will link to that
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: in the show notes. And I thought, let's get some
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: bite sized advice from somebody who clearly knows how to juggle.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: I'd imagine you've been doing it for twenty plus years,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: as you've done this parenting thing.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, first of all, I agreeed to be with
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: you justin, and yes, I have been juggling Greece. My
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: daughter is twenty two, she's about to graduate from college.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: But I've been juggling for quite some time.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: And you know the reason I have decided to would
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I can't give back on this topic because I think
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: it's such an important topic and as parents, you look
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: back on how we go through educated and the education system.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: We learn a lot of things in school, but we
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: don't actually learn about parenting in school, you know, It's
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: not a topic that gets covered. And then we also
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: don't learn about how to manage our career in school,
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: you know. And then you think, we have two of
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: the most important aspects of our life and we're trying
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: to do them at the same time. And I see
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of young parents that I work with every
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: day that are i'd say they're surviving, but they're not thriving.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: And I look at that and think, how how can
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: we help, you know, the parents of today really figure
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: out how to manage the struggling act because it is
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: a very real thing.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, so there's dozens and dozens and dozens of suggestions
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: in your book The Art of the Juggling Act. Something
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: that I've really struggled with running my own business and
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: with six children and having a range of responsibilities around
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: the place is setting boundaries between work and family life.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I've got a home office, My hours are unusual. I
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: do a lot of nighttime work, running parenting seminars. I'm
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: trying to write books, which I me an inspiration just
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: strikes when it does. Many parents have similar challenges around
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: boundaries between work and family. I'm looking at the career
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: that you've had, especially with Google and Mackensey and Coca Cola.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: What boundaries did you decide we're non negotiable for you?
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: And how did you then go to your boss or
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: to your colleagues or to your clients and say this
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: is a red line moment here and we're not stepping
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: over this line.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: No, it's a great question, justin and I do think
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: setting and protecting boundaries is one of the most important
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: things that I think we need to do as working parents.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: And the first thing is to figure out what you
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: want those boundaries to be, and then to actually tell
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: those people around you that those are your boundaries. Because
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: what I find is we might tell ourselves that we
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: are boundaries, but if we actually don't share them with
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: those around us, they will step right over them, literally.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: On them, over them, and I'll be above.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: And so it's one of the things that I did
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: very early on in my time of raising Greece. Actually
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: put in my color it said Grace time her name
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: was Grace. That made sense, but what it allowed me
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: to do it was two hours in the evening. You know,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: it was basically dinner time, getting ready for bedtime, you know,
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: reading books, whatever the case was when she was younger.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: But those two hours were non negotiables for me, and
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: I would tell my assistant, Look, if someone wants to
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: talk to me, they can talk to me at nine
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: pm a night.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: They can talk to me tomorrow morning. I'm my way
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: to school after I drop off for carpool. But those
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: two hours of Grace's.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Time, because she had so few hours with me and
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: me having a chance to spend quality of time with her,
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: that I worked really hard to protect that time, and
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: it was really kind of fundamental to how I decided
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: to raise her and link to that. Justin is the
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: technology that comes into our lives and is so prevalent now.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that I consciously did is
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: I'm different than you.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: I wasn't working from home.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: I was going into an office for a majority of
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Grace's upbringing. And I had actually built a cupboard in
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: my back hallway when I walked in, literally my laptop, case,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: my toe, everything went in that cupboard for those two
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: hours just away. I didn't want to see it because
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: I do think when we keep our laptop, even our phones,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: put a laptop, for sure, on the kitchen counter or
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: on the down room table. They talk, even if they're clothes,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: they're talking to you. And I think our kids deserve
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: those couple hours of our undebated attention and being as
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: a present as possible. And so those were two things,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: sharing and protecting my boundaries, putting grace time on my calendar,
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: and then finding that cupboard and putting the technology away
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: for the time that I was meant to be spending
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: with Grace.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Listening to the ideas that you've shared there, Sarah, it
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: sounds like Grace came along when you were already working
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: at a fairly senior level in corporate life. How do
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: you recommend somebody who is not senior go to their
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: boss and say, I've got to have some boundaries here,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: like my work is assuming my life and my capacity
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: to have relationships with the people that matter most to me.
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: I do think it's a conversation and it's one that
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: has to happen. And so I think approaching whoever you're
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: working with and saying, look, I'm going to set aside
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: this time for you know, this part of my life.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean I'm not going to get my work done.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: I always called it transference of hours. Okay, it might
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: not be in the typical nine to five, and to
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: your point, you have evening work or you know, it's
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: like whenever you need to get it done, you'll get
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: it done. But ideally it's one not when you're hopefully
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: spending that quality time with your children and be hopefully
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: you're able to set aside, you know, for other aspects.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: Of your life that you're wanting to nurture, whether it's
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: relationships or friendships and those things. But I do think
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: it's about having a conversation and putting it out there.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: I love hearing that. I'm really interested about. I mean,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: you've traveled a lot of the world with work. Your
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: career has taken you on dozens of countries. How do
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: you approach questions of travel and relocation and work when
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: you're trying to provide a stable and predictable environment for
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: your child.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I traveled literally from well actually Grace while I
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: was pregnant with Grace, she was in ten countries with
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: me in Euroes. She traveled the world with me before
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: she was even born. But no, yeah, I had the
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: fortunate situation where I was in global roles for the
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: last thirty years and so there was always global travel.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: And what I will say is I felt really strong,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: and I do feel strong that parents should travel both
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: personally and professionally as they need to, and that your
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: kids will be just fine as long as you have
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: good support at home, whether it's a spouse, whether it's
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: a nanny, a family member or friend who's going to
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: stay with them. But from the time Grace was very little,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: I was on a plane going to different countries to
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: do what I need to do. And that was just
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: really both important to me, important to the role I
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: was doing, and I found it very fulfilling to do
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: that travel. But it also, I will tell you, justin
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: it made Grace really have such a global view, you know,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: and raising her and understanding that we live in a
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: very I I always told her, we live in a
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: very small world.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: Grace.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: It's a very small world, and you can, you know,
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: go and see it when you know, over the course
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: of years. But I also, interestingly enough, even when I
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: wasn't traveling, I was bringing a lot of my colleagues
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: that would come into town to our house for dinner,
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: because I wanted Grace to meet people from around the
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: world and meet my colleagues in a way. That also
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: so it wasn't that mom was just going to travel
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: and didn't have any contexts. I wanted to see kind
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: of names and faces. Understand there were people behind that
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: travel that I was connecting with, and we're both colleagues
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: and friends, and so that was something I did. On
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: the verse side when I wasn't on a plane, there
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: were nights where, you know, I'd have them over for
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: dinner and we'd all sit together and have dinner, and
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: that was a fun part of it as well.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: I have a hypothesis around that particular decision to have
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: your daughter in the presence of a whole lot of adults,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: high achieving, successful adults, people that you're working with. My
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: hypothesis follows my thesis. My idea is as follows. We
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: allow our children to spend too much time with their peers,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: particularly in unsupervised, unmonitored ways, and their peers are not
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: usually going to be great role models. They're not going
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: to give them something to aspire to or look towards,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: or they're not typically going to be somebody that they
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: can learn from. My preference, very much as much as
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: my children sometimes resist it, is that I want them
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: to be sitting at the table with the adults. I
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: want them to be surrounded by people who are thinking
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: about bigger questions, who are working towards solving bigger problems.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: I want them to be around people who can be
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: role models and examples of what it is to live
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: a healthy and successful life. Do you have any pushback
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: to that? Do you think that kids should be allowed
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: to hide in the corner with their buddies or do
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: you think that bring them in is a great idea.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: I like a big believer in bringing them in. I
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: think into the conversation, into meeting people again from different
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: parts of the world and different cultures and different backgrounds,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: and I think, you know, Grace learns something from each
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: of those people, and to this day, you know, those
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: are friends of ours. I say, have a family of
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: friends around the world, and you know, and they all
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: know Grace, and Grace knows them. And I think that
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: that bringing your kids into those conversations at an early
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: enough age where they feel that they can be part
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: of the conversation.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: I think it's one of the best one of the
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: best guests you can give them actually.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: Because there's a confidence that children get from talking to adults,
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: and then if you're talking to adults from you know,
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: various parts of the world, it's just a it's the
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: next level, I think, in terms of that kind of
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: maturity that you'll see in them over the course of time.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: As we consider this out of the juggling act the
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: name as your book, you mentioned before building a support system,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: and I really wanted to pick up on that. You're
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: a single parent, high pressure career. How do you build
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: a support system that works for both you and your daughter,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: especially with all that travel, and what advice do you
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: have for parents? How do you do that juggle when
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: you're constrained from a resource perspective to give the kids
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: what they need, but still have the liberty to pursue
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: the things that are really important to you and fulfilling
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: to your career wise.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question, and yes, I think there's
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: a lot of different ways to find support. And I
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: always say that I was fortunate we did have. First
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: of all, I had a very supportive husband and then
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: ex husband and he and I co parented Grace over
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: the years of her childhood. But I also had friends
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: and neighbors that were, you know, part of that support system.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: My family lived out of town, so we did not
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: have the ability to lean on them as maybe some
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: would have an opportunity to. But I think it's looking
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: around within your community and figuring out what is the
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: right support network. It could be a daycare. You know,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: there's lots of different ways to find that support, but
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: it is I think fundamental as a working parent to
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: figure out what is it you think you need and
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: be okay with the fact that you're going to need help.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: This is not something you're expected to do by yourself. Yeah,
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: it really is.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot to take on, and so
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: I was always very conscious of the fact that it
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: wasn't just going to be you know, me raising Grace
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: that I need I needed help, and so, you know,
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: I really leaned on a lot of different people in
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: many different ways. And I say that I had a
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: wonderful group of working mom friends, but you know, quite asty,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: they weren't doing their own juggling act. And I had
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: some really close stay at home mom friends and they
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: were the ones that you know, when Grace need to
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: be picked up at school and you know I was
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: in London or whatever the case.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, they were the ones that said, I've got her,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: no problem, don't worry.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: And so I think that's something just knowing you have
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: a group of people there for you. But it can
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: come in various shapes and forms in different relationships. It's
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: just a matter of you figuring out what you think
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: you need and then having that conversation of the expectation
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: that you're you're going to lean.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: On them this career, Sarah, so much time has to
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: be spent away from your daughter, so much time has
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: to be spent at the office. There are so many priorities.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: And I know you've got your no goz ones, You've
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: got your bound You've got this, this is this is
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: not to be touched. I get to prioritize that. But
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: the one of the things that I hear all the time.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I see it on Instagram, I see it on Facebook,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: I see it on TikTok. It's just the mum guilt,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: the feeling that I'm not doing enough at home, I'm
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: not doing enough at work, I'm letting everybody down. Did
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: you ever experience that do you have any sort of
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: imposter syndrome around being a parent? How do you manage that?
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: What advice would you give for parents who are caught
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: up in the whole mum guilt cycle?
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's it is. It is a very raal thing,
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: mum guilt.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I joked that I was raised Catholics, so it's also
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: it's like double doubly doubly prevalent prevalent. But now you know,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: one of the things I think is important as a
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: mom or as a working parent is first and foremost
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: when you have made the decision to have children, and
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: then you also, in fairness most likely need to work,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: and then you're trying to juggle both.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: You have to realize that.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: I have a saying that I used to tell myself,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: and it was I'm doing the best thing, okay. And
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: that was my little mantra that I would tell myself,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: because you can always feel like you could be doing
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: something better. You could be doing something better at work,
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: you could be doing something better in terms of showing
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: up for your children or whatever the case may be.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: But I would just say, and I would even say
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: to Grace, Mom's doing the best I can. The reason
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: I said that is because that for me kind of
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: helped to not trigger any type of guilt because I knew,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: look out the best.
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: I can't.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: I can't make myself self feel guilty for the choices
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: I'm making because at this moment in this you know,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: whatever I was trying to focus on, that was that
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: was what I was, that was the mindset I was
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: trying to instill in myself, and so I really did
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: kind of fight any feeling of guilt. I also justin
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: always knew I wanted to work and have a family,
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: and it was something I was very committed to. I
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: was very excited about, and so I went into it
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: knowing that it was going to be, you know, the
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: struggling act and I needed to figure it out.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: But it wasn't something that.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: I was going to you know, beat myself up about
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: once I got into it, because I felt like was
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: a choice.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: I'd mat I'm thinking about the I'm doing the best
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: that I can mantra this this piece of advice, and
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: I look at that. Speaking quite personally here, my oldest
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: daughter is in a mid twenties. She and her husband
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: have got a baby girl.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: And.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: She's just gone back to school she's gone back to
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: school so that she can upskill, she can get some
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: more qualifications, and she's about to obviously once her education
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: is completed, juggle even more. As I believe they're planning
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: on more children. She's going to have a career. She's
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: got to juggle the like. There's so much going on there,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: and I just think the grace that you give yourself,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: not as a cop out or as an excuse, because
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: you're being productive and efficient and you are juggling like
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: you are keeping those balls in the air, but the
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: grace that you give yourself around this idea that I
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: am actually doing the best that I can. It's kind
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: of the support that we need to give ourselves when
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: sometimes there isn't anybody else to lean on. I just
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. Now you're an advocate of the
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: good divorce. Your parents have been married for what like
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: five decades or something fifty five.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Years actually heading in fifty seven, I think this year
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: in fifty seven amazing.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: And so you look at that and obviously have a wonderful,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: wonderful sense of awe for their relationships, and yet you
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: advocate for a good divorce. Talk a bit about that
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: you've written about it quite quite explicitly. In fact, you've
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: got a book about it. How did you how did
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: your perspective on healthy relationships evolve going through a divorce
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: or separation, obviously having a healthy marriage at least at
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: some point, and having your parents as that model. How
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: does all this fit together for you?
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah? No, well it is. It's an interesting journey.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: I always say that, you know, you don't get married
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: with the intent of getting divorced. You know, that's not like, Okay,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: when I get married and then when I get divorced,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: that's not part of the plan.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: And I generally say you don't get divorce for positive reasons.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Usually there's some type of trigger that's led you to that.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: But for me, the most important thing to reflect on
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: is that children don't get to decide that their parents
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: are getting a divorce, and they're the most significantly impacted.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: And to your point, justin my parents were married for
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: fifty seven years and so happened, right. But I saw
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: some very ugly divorces among their friend group growing up,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: and I saw those and I went at the point
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: when I realized that we were going to be going
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: through a divorce I just said to myself, I don't
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: want that for Grace. I don't want that situation and
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: the toxicity that can come with the negativity of a divorce.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: And so I spoke to my Snabiak's husband and I said, look,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: I want to figure out a way will we do
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: this where Grace isn't collateral damage in this divorce. And
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: so we just took some very conscious steps along the way,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: and from the minute we decided to get a divorce
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: all the way through. She's graduating in a month and
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: we will both be at her graduation, you know, with
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: both of our families, you know, celebrating that milestone in
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: her life. But it's been a very conscious decision. We
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: got divorce and she was seven, you know, and so
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: she had eleven years of living across two homes, which
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: is a huge thing for a young child to have
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: to go through.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: And it wasn't something I wanted for her. But we
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: took a lot of steps over the course of time
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: to make sure that. I always said I didn't want
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: the first thing to come out of Graces and how
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: yours down the road as well, my parents were divorced,
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: Like I felt like there should be much more commentary
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: in her life before we get to that fact, it
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: should be a hopefully a passing statement versus that the statement,
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: and so we took a lot of different measures to
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: make sure that we could end up with what we've
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: called a good divorce.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: Sarah, let's move towards conclusion. Your book is called The
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Art of the Juggling Act. Clearly you've done plenty of
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: that bite sized guide for working parents. When you consider
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: the book they've written and the advice that you put
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: in there, is there any one thing that is just
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: your favorite thing to lean on when people say, oh,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: tell me about the book or tell me what I
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: need to do to get this juggling act right. What's
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: your favorite bit of advice to share with parents around this?
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: You know, I think to recognize that everyone's struggling at
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: is going to be their own unique juggling act, but
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: also that you're not alone, and to realize, going back
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: to my point about asking for help, it's also important
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: to realize that you can compare notes with people around you,
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: listen to a podcast like here is justin. There's ways
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: to get support so you don't feel like you are
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: going through this by yourself and that is something that
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: we're all trying to figure out. But it's teeking pieces
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: from various sources and ways of support to then figure
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: out how you want to manage your juggling act. I
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: think it's one of the hardest things to realize is
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: sometimes you feel like you're just in it and you
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: can't really lift your head up and look around to
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: see how you can get some help, some points of
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: inspiration and maybe change some ways that you're doing things.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: But that's probably the thing that I'd say is kind
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: of fundamental to this whole thing.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Sarah Armstrong, thank you so much for taking time out
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: of your day to spend time with us on that
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Bey Family's podcast.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having justin to spend time
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: with you.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Sarah Armstrong is the author of the Art of the
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Juggling Act, a bite sized guide for working parents, the
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: vice president of Global Marketing Operations at Google, and the
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: proud mum of Grace who is, as you heard, finishing
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: off her university degree, finishing up at college, getting on
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: with being an adult herself. Thank you so much for
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: listening to the Happy Families podcast. Really hope that it
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: helps you in the decisions that you're making and gives
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: you the practical, bite size advice that you need to
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: guide your family to flourishing. The Happy Families podcast is
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: produced by Justin Rulan from Bridge Media. If you would
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: like more information and more advice, more help to make
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: your family happier, visit us at happy families dot com
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: dot au