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Coolock – ‘No Lessons Were Learned After the Riots’ · Reboot Republic - Rory Hearne by Tortoise Shack Media

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  I'm shutting up now.
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  Enjoy the show.
• 1:21
  Welcome to reboot Republic the podcast that goes
• 1:24
  behind the headlines and looks of the big
• 1:25
  issues in this Republic of inequality. We are
• 1:28
  the podcast of solutions in the podcast of
• 1:30
  hope I'm your host Rory Her, and delighted
• 1:32
  to be joined on the panel today, on
• 1:34
  the podcast today by a an incredible panel
• 1:37
  who are all working really, really hard.
• 1:39
  To nurture hope at this time, we've seen,
• 1:41
  you know, riots, erupt in C and the
• 1:44
  course they didn't interrupt out of nowhere.
• 1:46
  Being organized by Far and whipping up hate
• 1:50
  again against vulnerable people,
• 1:52
  really, really sad to see, but this podcast
• 1:54
  is about hope and looking at ways forward.
• 1:57
  I'm joined by counselor, John Lyon,
• 2:00
  by an Mcdonald of the hope and courage
• 2:02
  collective,
• 2:03
  and by counselor Daniel En, who featured in
• 2:06
  the Or documentary,
• 2:08
  the locals which I really, really would encourage
• 2:10
  people to look at
• 2:13
  really, really interesting look into the the local
• 2:16
  elections and the different people involved,
• 2:18
  and, you know, really as suppose the the
• 2:20
  way in which we can try turn the
• 2:21
  tide. But listen, they will need to talk
• 2:23
  about what's happened.
• 2:26
  It's all over the papers today. It's been
• 2:28
  all over the media. It's you know, on
• 2:30
  social media.
• 2:33
  The
• 2:34
  the burning of the center that or the
• 2:37
  the... What was due to be a space
• 2:40
  accommodation for Ipa pass, people fleeing refuge,
• 2:43
  protests of been ongoing there for quite a
• 2:45
  while.
• 2:46
  Unfortunately,
• 2:49
  It wasn't dee escalated.
• 2:51
  John, just to go for you first, go
• 2:53
  to you first, your a counselor in the
• 2:55
  area,
• 2:57
  what
• 2:58
  just what's your analysis of where we're at
• 2:59
  now?
• 3:01
  Well, look, I think yesterday it was incredibly
• 3:03
  difficult,
• 3:04
  primarily
• 3:04
  for the people living around the area.
• 3:07
  The workers on that size, the security,
• 3:11
  and the few workers that were brought on
• 3:13
  to prepare that size.
• 3:15
  And then also top f brigade, To boss
• 3:17
  at the garrison themselves, all face a very
• 3:20
  difficult situation. I think Just to let people
• 3:23
  know that that that site the former Crown
• 3:25
  Factory is on the Formaldehyde road. Yes. But
• 3:27
  it's actually surrounded by housing. There's housing right
• 3:30
  next to it there's housing behind us.
• 3:32
  There's businesses behind us. There's housing across the
• 3:35
  road.
• 3:36
  So I think there was a lot of
• 3:38
  shock.
• 3:39
  I think there's a bit of disbelief
• 3:41
  a lot of anger and fear with people
• 3:43
  living around the area that something
• 3:46
  significantly,
• 3:47
  more dangerous was going to happen.
• 3:49
  Because they saw the fires. They saw the
• 3:51
  digger being,
• 3:52
  set of ablaze. They saw some of the
• 3:54
  mattresses that were going to be brought in
• 3:56
  being set ablaze. And attempts to set the
• 3:59
  building itself, the the former factory
• 4:01
  been set on fire it didn't happen. But
• 4:03
  I think the potential for that to have
• 4:06
  caused
• 4:07
  some really serious
• 4:08
  injury to life
• 4:10
  was there.
• 4:11
  And I think people are rightly shocked.
• 4:13
  People speak about there willie bins been
• 4:17
  taken from their front gardens to be set.
• 4:19
  Some people were having their car smashed in,
• 4:22
  others
• 4:23
  who tried to intervene to protect their possessions
• 4:27
  were assaulted.
• 4:29
  So there's a huge
• 4:31
  follow today, Rory from what happened yesterday.
• 4:35
  Look, I think
• 4:36
  this was inevitable that was going to be
• 4:38
  some conflict.
• 4:40
  You know, the far rise up been active.
• 4:42
  They've been engaged. They've been there. At the
• 4:44
  story for a number of months.
• 4:46
  And Are, as we know is the politics
• 4:48
  of avoidance of hay,
• 4:50
  of spread and fear and just information. They've
• 4:52
  done a good job. They've been allowed Do
• 4:53
  a good job over the last period of
• 4:55
  time.
• 4:56
  There's been a tariff of information. There's been
• 4:58
  a complete lack of engagement from the departments
• 5:01
  of integration.
• 5:03
  Since April, when we call first us, public
• 5:05
  representatives did attend and some community representatives
• 5:08
  amazing in early April in the area, but
• 5:10
  at that meeting we called for real engagement
• 5:13
  with
• 5:15
  with the community. Now that wouldn't have way
• 5:16
  shape or form I don't think
• 5:19
  completely
• 5:19
  removed the potential for violence. That was there.
• 5:22
  The fire right, we're gonna do something.
• 5:24
  And these people have no interest in the
• 5:26
  community.
• 5:27
  Yeah. These actors. There's an overlap between the
• 5:30
  far rise and criminal elements. They were there.
• 5:33
  They've no interest. They've no concern.
• 5:36
  I've never seen them
• 5:37
  campaigning on the lack of affordable and public
• 5:39
  housing. Never seen them talk about the death
• 5:41
  of,
• 5:42
  health in the area, the local lack of
• 5:45
  investments in community and social and sporting infrastructure.
• 5:48
  And it was revealing the fact that they
• 5:50
  sell a light, or try to set a
• 5:52
  alight the factory with no regard to the
• 5:54
  people living right next start. So they have
• 5:56
  no interest in the community. They come across
• 5:58
  like that, but they have asked absolutely in
• 6:00
  Nor regard for the people living in Ko,
• 6:02
  and we have to say it quite clearly.
• 6:04
  I've been on a few
• 6:06
  interviews today.
• 6:07
  You know, I shouldn't have to say but
• 6:09
  quite obviously, the majority of people living in
• 6:10
  c thousands of people families,
• 6:13
  individuals and couples
• 6:14
  you know, out, you know, a poor the
• 6:17
  avoidance that they saw yesterday. K gray area
• 6:20
  representative for 10 years, I hope to representative
• 6:22
  it for the years to come. People are
• 6:24
  decent their goats. They look after their families.
• 6:26
  They look after the neighbors. They're they're calling
• 6:28
  their Karen. Yet. There are issues in the
• 6:30
  area.
• 6:32
  You know, there are tough
• 6:33
  people who know that the earth stage hasn't
• 6:35
  done many favors over the years, with regard
• 6:38
  to the lack of investment in housing. And
• 6:39
  the order serves as that I've just mentioned.
• 6:42
  But it's a great community. Yeah. The volunteer
• 6:44
  ethic is there, through the clubs, dance sk,
• 6:47
  sports clubs, everything to give children
• 6:49
  the best opportunities in life from that area,
• 6:52
  despite the fact that there hasn't been the,
• 6:53
  requisite of investment to over decades,
• 6:56
  by the state, So a great area and
• 6:58
  it's very shocking as nationally, people are going
• 7:01
  see the the name Ko associated with this
• 7:03
  violence, but it's completely un representative. Our the
• 7:06
  vast majority of people and people look. Yeah.
• 7:08
  Absolutely. And I think that
• 7:11
  it really is
• 7:13
  you know, it's complex as well because as
• 7:15
  you mentioned there, you know, there is,
• 7:18
  you know, c and parts of Darn or
• 7:20
  some of the most deprived areas in the
• 7:22
  country.
• 7:23
  And you talk, you know, the lack of
• 7:24
  services,
• 7:26
  and, you know, the lack of investment,
• 7:29
  the under investment, the social exclusion,
• 7:33
  and, of course, what the far writer doing
• 7:35
  is using all this social exclusion and whipping
• 7:39
  it and turning it on?
• 7:41
  Those most vulnerable, and it is 1 of
• 7:43
  the most frustrating aspects of it, and because
• 7:46
  they offer, you know, no forward solutions on
• 7:48
  that,
• 7:49
  Need Mcdonald from the Hope and Courage collective.
• 7:51
  You've been,
• 7:53
  you know, working for quite a while in
• 7:55
  terms of both highlighting the far right and
• 7:56
  also trying to work on messaging and how
• 7:59
  we can, you know, try and connect with
• 8:01
  people and both, you know, I suppose to
• 8:03
  convince people and and win people away from
• 8:05
  their arguments because there are... There's no getting
• 8:07
  away their arguments are getting resonance.
• 8:11
  And
• 8:12
  you know, that is the other side of
• 8:14
  it. There there are people agreeing with them
• 8:15
  and there are people will come out and
• 8:17
  engage in, as we've seen in violence in
• 8:20
  support of it and,
• 8:22
  as I said, you know, there's different factors
• 8:24
  behind that, but there's no getting away from
• 8:27
  their growth in terms of the influence of
• 8:29
  their message.
• 8:31
  What's your sense of
• 8:32
  significance of what happened in C lock and
• 8:34
  what do you think is gonna happen? What
• 8:36
  do you see happening in the coming days
• 8:37
  and weeks?
• 8:39
  Yeah. The
• 8:41
  big moment right there, Rory, I think, you
• 8:43
  know, and is not too far from the
• 8:45
  riots.
• 8:46
  The 20 third third of November in 20
• 8:49
  23,
• 8:50
  and no lessons from the state have been
• 8:53
  learned from that nice.
• 8:54
  That was very, very apparent.
• 8:56
  You know. So there's a couple of things
• 8:58
  I suppose I'd like to talk about. As
• 9:00
  I said the role of policing yesterday.
• 9:02
  Yeah.
• 9:03
  The role of social media?
• 9:05
  The patterns of the fire rights that could
• 9:07
  be easily identified,
• 9:09
  and also known a coal
• 9:11
  of the fire rise. So I think before
• 9:13
  we get on to message and stuff we
• 9:14
  need to look at what's in front of
• 9:15
  our face right now because everybody's
• 9:18
  angry. Lots of people are angry for a
• 9:20
  lots of different reasons, Rory. Yeah. Jeremy, people
• 9:22
  who were at the protest. Yesterday say they
• 9:24
  were angry or at all. Some people were
• 9:25
  just looking. You know, not everybody was involved.
• 9:28
  So people were just looking,
• 9:30
  And we have really careful how we talk
• 9:32
  about this and how we talk about communities
• 9:34
  because,
• 9:35
  otherwise, we're gonna give the far rate a
• 9:37
  gift and just hand communities over. To fire
• 9:40
  rates. So that's 1 thing I'm extraordinarily conscious
• 9:42
  of and talk about maybe, like, first of
• 9:45
  all, I talk about a little bit about
• 9:47
  the role of kinda like the police, it
• 9:48
  went from actually being absent to them being
• 9:50
  over police and Are actually extremely violent in
• 9:53
  some ways.
• 9:54
  So if you looked like
• 9:56
  from what we could see from about half
• 9:58
  4 or 05:00
• 9:59
  in the morning, you could initially see that
• 10:02
  the site had been cleared.
• 10:04
  And a barrier had gone up. Right? This
• 10:06
  is kind of 1 of the first videos
• 10:08
  that we sell about 05:00 in the morning.
• 10:10
  And there was no police or anything there
• 10:12
  that stage there's just security meant, a migrant
• 10:14
  security man of color, which in the context
• 10:17
  of the situation is a very dangerous thing
• 10:19
  to do and it's not by worker that
• 10:21
  our workers rights to. And it's not protected,
• 10:23
  and I'd love to see where the trade
• 10:24
  unions are are are going to talk about
• 10:26
  that and what happens around that because a
• 10:28
  lot of the stuff fire is a workers
• 10:30
  rights issue as well. Because workers where the
• 10:32
  face.
• 10:33
  And then they talked till about half 10
• 10:37
  for a significant police presence. And at that
• 10:39
  stage, if you looked in, you could see
• 10:40
  those was of firing on the left hand
• 10:42
  side where the Anna nolan and kinda of
• 10:43
  transport truck. I'm assuming that's the mattresses.
• 10:46
  And in all the the... It was quite
• 10:49
  flimsy barriers were ripped down, and then you
• 10:51
  could see people going in, and they were
• 10:53
  going for for the Jc, which was the
• 10:55
  big molly shop. I think it's like that
• 10:57
  everybody remembers that went up on fire, and
• 10:59
  the crowd started
• 11:00
  So there's that space of time.
• 11:03
  That's...
• 11:04
  As John said, we knew something would happen.
• 11:07
  The violence would be there. The particular behaviors
• 11:09
  you come from. Previous
• 11:12
  incidents with the fire right across the country.
• 11:14
  So there wasn't seem to be a significant
• 11:16
  plan or organization in place around at that
• 11:19
  present moment in time for that period of
• 11:20
  time. And then suddenly, it did come in.
• 11:23
  And then a lot of it was quite
• 11:25
  over police in places as well. You know,
• 11:27
  where there was extreme policing at the same
• 11:29
  time.
• 11:30
  So I'm, like, again, for us, all the
• 11:33
  time, we never understand what the police in
• 11:35
  operation is. It's on uneven across the country
• 11:37
  and it's inconsistent.
• 11:38
  And it's likely don't seem to
• 11:41
  acknowledge or observed that there's patterns of the
• 11:42
  fire right behavior that are easily to be
• 11:44
  identifiable to all of us here in this
• 11:45
  room, and we can predict what patterns are
• 11:47
  going to happen.
• 11:48
  And then we can see that the role
• 11:50
  social media played in none
• 11:52
  consistently on social media, this was amplified. Across
• 11:56
  the country. And you could see that actors,
• 11:58
  fire right actors from across the country were
• 12:00
  heading there. Some from cork,
• 12:01
  some from Mayo,
• 12:03
  all every everywhere, and it was amplified across
• 12:05
  Tiktok across Youtube, across Facebook and cross X.
• 12:08
  And if you go and talk to these
• 12:10
  these platforms And they say, all that breaks
• 12:12
  are, you know, are are and
• 12:15
  our our our community rules and stuff like
• 12:16
  that. But none of that content has ever
• 12:18
  taken down. It's constantly divided and putting in
• 12:20
  our communities at risk, and I put a
• 12:22
  direct spotlight on the violence that was happening
• 12:24
  there. So I suppose to... And then the
• 12:26
  other factor that I would really kinda like
• 12:28
  to talk about... Is the patterns of behaved
• 12:30
  we've have seen since the the riots of
• 12:33
  November 20 23.
• 12:34
  We see there's was a lack of policing
• 12:36
  on Of the police are gonna solve the
• 12:37
  fire, this is a there's a political response
• 12:40
  to all of the qualities that you and
• 12:41
  John Hay,
• 12:42
  but when does criminal activity and dangerous and
• 12:45
  arson attacks There is a role to be
• 12:47
  play here.
• 12:49
  And we can see that there's, like the
• 12:50
  swift mobilization of the fire happened during rides
• 12:52
  happened in ko.
• 12:54
  There was arson attacks.
• 12:56
  There was a tax on police cars. There
• 12:57
  was tax on communities. There was a attacks
• 12:59
  on on buildings. It's the same.
• 13:02
  Right? And now... And so that could all
• 13:04
  have been predicted in a place in operation.
• 13:07
  We knew that that camp had been there
• 13:08
  since before April.
• 13:10
  And we knew what was gonna happen, so
• 13:11
  plans could have been in place. And finally,
• 13:14
  I'd like to talk about, like, there's a
• 13:15
  coal lesson
• 13:16
  of different forces of the fire rate underground
• 13:18
  at the moment that we can see emergence
• 13:20
  since the local and European elections. So we
• 13:22
  can see that there's last Friday even there's
• 13:24
  an announcement of 3 political parties, the national
• 13:27
  party ireland first, and
• 13:30
  the hours people have come together in a
• 13:32
  coalition around the next general elections.
• 13:34
  And then we can see the irish free
• 13:36
  and party has now has stayed out with
• 13:38
  apple They're taken on 2 independent candidates,
• 13:41
  worn in the Northeast dinner city and deodorant
• 13:43
  in fingers. And saying that they won't run
• 13:45
  against them. So we can see there's
• 13:47
  coalition and their strength is beginning to
• 13:50
  to gather. And I think
• 13:52
  Before we start respond, I think there is
• 13:54
  a narrative response, but we have to understand
• 13:56
  what's in front of our faces right now.
• 13:57
  So there is a there's a role of
• 13:59
  what the fair right or june. There's also
• 14:00
  the role of what the state and what
• 14:02
  the state are not tuned and there's the
• 14:03
  role that social media is playing an amplify,
• 14:06
  and normalize an all as Well.
• 14:08
  Yeah. And it was a lot there and
• 14:09
  even, and I think to,
• 14:11
  you know what, take on, and it it
• 14:13
  is clear, very clear in terms of dash,
• 14:15
  you know, the stage you're right in terms
• 14:17
  of dash
• 14:18
  you know, uneven response, like an absence of
• 14:21
  Ga, and then suddenly, it's the riot police.
• 14:23
  Like this, you know, there has to be
• 14:25
  again, what we always talk about something, you
• 14:27
  know, around community, policing and community, you know,
• 14:29
  engagement.
• 14:31
  And and that seems to be
• 14:33
  you know, very much there that... There was
• 14:35
  an absence, and I know city council has
• 14:37
  put forward.
• 14:39
  You know, emotion, I think at the last
• 14:40
  council around looking for you know, engagement with
• 14:43
  the community around this it wasn't acted on.
• 14:46
  And,
• 14:47
  Daniel, I... I'd bring you in there counselor,
• 14:50
  Daniel Ellis, social democrats in the the North
• 14:52
  in your city,
• 14:54
  in terms of your own experience with east
• 14:56
  wall and you've been, you know, working there
• 14:58
  and campaigning for many years and to you
• 15:00
  know, the... We obviously saw, you know, different
• 15:03
  aspects of this in in in East wall
• 15:05
  as well, and obviously, not to the same
• 15:07
  level of the the riot put, you know,
• 15:10
  the the...
• 15:11
  You, so we know some of the the
• 15:13
  the actors from East wall went up to
• 15:15
  C as well. We saw that
• 15:17
  and again, you know what Knee was saying
• 15:19
  that it wasn't just all locals so called.
• 15:22
  And
• 15:23
  just your own, I suppose response to it,
• 15:25
  You know,
• 15:26
  Yeah. So it it's...
• 15:28
  As Need put data. It's it's how we
• 15:29
  talk about these communities and and John put
• 15:31
  it well.
• 15:32
  But there's a lot of genuine hard walking
• 15:34
  people in in Kill lock and Da Areas
• 15:37
  and Sun the stay, and I also saw
• 15:41
  parties from the look at these disadvantaged areas
• 15:43
  and energy community started it. It's our problem.
• 15:45
  It would happen in in those places. It's
• 15:47
  absolutely not. It's being stoked up
• 15:50
  boy the feel
• 15:52
  from in and around communities not always from
• 15:54
  these communities.
• 15:55
  And like, does a lot of community groups
• 15:58
  you clubs, as John mentioned Dance groups that's
• 16:01
  still amazing stuff in these new. It don't
• 16:03
  really feel for them because I know, with
• 16:05
  ourselves,
• 16:07
  like, we fought
• 16:08
  indirectly, and now it's almost with with the
• 16:10
  documentary going out, and it's looking
• 16:13
  directly. You know that will f the far.
• 16:15
  But
• 16:16
  Again,
• 16:17
  I think we stoke it... If... It's been
• 16:19
  s by, but we're almost given someone on
• 16:21
  compliments when we call them fire because there's
• 16:23
  a small few That's playing off a fur
• 16:26
  playbook.
• 16:27
  But again, those few are prey on the
• 16:29
  vulnerability of the community. And again, we know
• 16:32
  like, the full football clubs out there for
• 16:34
  playing pages pitches, you know, and
• 16:37
  like 4 clubs, we avoid the mail as
• 16:39
  part of my we work with balls.
• 16:41
  The austria trying erode and the liverpool coaches
• 16:44
  couldn't complement the area enough, the coaches enough,
• 16:47
  the kids enough,
• 16:49
  and down to the coin the adjacency, the
• 16:51
  spartan ability. You know? So it's a
• 16:54
  it's a field that's s is open, and
• 16:56
  as as the guy said,
• 16:57
  what was the 200 people, but we'd have
• 16:59
  to be careful how we speak about these
• 17:01
  communities because we will only make it worse
• 17:03
  I feel if we're talking down to them.
• 17:06
  You know? This has to be a part
• 17:07
  approach.
• 17:09
  Yeah. Absolutely. And and I think in terms
• 17:12
  of maybe some of the the work that
• 17:14
  you've done. Again, you know, showing the positive
• 17:17
  possibilities. Maybe you could talk a little bit
• 17:19
  about that. Yeah. So it it's
• 17:21
  I hear John earlier on in in an
• 17:23
  end of interview about commute... Bet the better
• 17:25
  communication of, of, I suppose, go on anybody
• 17:28
  mailed into the area whether it's someone from
• 17:29
  the order and I see email look if
• 17:31
  it's a global a table ar someone come
• 17:33
  from different countries. If the clubs for instance
• 17:35
  are communicate. If it's communicated the clubs, You
• 17:38
  know, what we done was, I wasn't communicate
• 17:40
  to us, what you went in behind our
• 17:42
  badge as a club. All we could do
• 17:44
  was offered a offered to go as a
• 17:45
  game of football. I the the women,
• 17:48
  come on board and and run them through
• 17:49
  coaching and badges, get the kids involved. So
• 17:52
  sport is a great way of bringing people
• 17:54
  together. And we've done it well.
• 17:56
  But more often than not, the sports clubs
• 17:59
  in communities are the.
• 18:01
  There deeply be rooted in the community So...
• 18:03
  Yeah. Again, we we we quite went in
• 18:06
  behind our badge, and then all of a
• 18:07
  sudden, we've seen the change that I had
• 18:09
  and the positive change I had.
• 18:10
  And it's sad to say, like, we're lucky
• 18:13
  we're blessed with it really strong,
• 18:15
  progressive care committee at the moment.
• 18:17
  But there's a lot of our ex committee
• 18:19
  members
• 18:20
  that are at the forefront of our protest
• 18:22
  now. You know,
• 18:23
  and the East wall says no Melbourne, which
• 18:25
  delivery be back at our globe ever again.
• 18:26
  But, yeah. Love to see a noise strong
• 18:29
  response from the community groups that's actually dealing
• 18:32
  the amazing walk.
• 18:33
  Every day, Like sport is the ultimate ut
• 18:36
  diversion program. It's the ultimate from inclusive program,
• 18:40
  integration program, and
• 18:42
  naturally brings people together as opposed to, I
• 18:44
  suppose having your heart towards like your harsh
• 18:46
  events like integration day where,
• 18:49
  again, we have to be careful how we
• 18:51
  talk a about until can be these
• 18:53
  Yeah.
• 18:54
  Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's it's
• 18:56
  interesting The sport is really interesting when Had
• 18:58
  my daughter in and it was Sheriff Street
• 19:00
  playground yesterday.
• 19:01
  And, you know, just watching, you know, people
• 19:03
  from different communities, local community, young lads, all
• 19:06
  playing a match together in the pitch and
• 19:08
  you're going
• 19:09
  you know, this is this is not, you
• 19:11
  know, what has being represented in the riots
• 19:14
  like an... And this does I think there's
• 19:15
  a real
• 19:16
  joining between the reality of people's lives, particularly
• 19:19
  young people and how they're mixing with people
• 19:21
  from different communities, different backgrounds, different colors
• 19:24
  and then what we're seeing this agitation that
• 19:26
  is, you know, you know, fueling a haze
• 19:29
  and almost, you know... So I think that
• 19:31
  the
• 19:32
  To me, the hope is that, you know,
• 19:35
  there's a new reality, which is, you know,
• 19:37
  we are multi multicultural. We are diverse. We
• 19:39
  are... And people see that, and they live
• 19:41
  in their everyday life,
• 19:43
  And so and on the other hand, then
• 19:45
  we have this, you know, this extreme
• 19:47
  agitation going on right now that's
• 19:49
  It is blinding people from what is actually
• 19:53
  causing their problems and their issues, but it's
• 19:55
  such an easy 1 because praying into people's
• 19:58
  fears and isolation.
• 20:01
  In in terms of John the counsel at
• 20:03
  what the account can do. What what would
• 20:05
  be your sense of, you know, what kind
• 20:06
  the council do? What the left coming together?
• 20:09
  You know, what sort of responses are needed?
• 20:11
  Now, you know Daniel has mentioned you know,
• 20:13
  community group, sports groups, you know, N mentioned
• 20:16
  trade unions.
• 20:17
  You know, we look back to Ireland for
• 20:18
  all the big huge
• 20:20
  demonstration. We had. Do we And, obviously, we
• 20:22
  be very, very careful because, you know, around
• 20:25
  mobilization and around, you know, we want to
• 20:27
  dee escalate things and we, you know, you
• 20:29
  don't want us as the guys have said
• 20:30
  to give people
• 20:32
  In some ways more fuel and respect and
• 20:34
  attention than they absolutely deserve, But on the
• 20:36
  other hand,
• 20:37
  do we need some sort of response? Or
• 20:40
  or what do you think is does the
• 20:42
  response need to be? Or is it a...
• 20:44
  I I'm not sure. What... What's your sense
• 20:45
  for that? Yeah. Look, I I don't think
• 20:47
  this is an easy 1II
• 20:49
  think in terms of what we say and
• 20:51
  what we do, I think what we do
• 20:53
  is is more important right now in terms
• 20:56
  of
• 20:57
  Like, Daniel mentions the cl that he had.
• 20:59
  He had V,
• 21:00
  care more,
• 21:02
  Columbus,
• 21:03
  down in the Oscar trainer, Like, I don't
• 21:05
  think we can underestimate. Like... So when the
• 21:08
  fire comes across with their binary, black and
• 21:10
  white arguments, they're getting in house and you're
• 21:12
  not
• 21:14
  why are they getting this and they're missed
• 21:16
  this disinformation around videos showing people from Ukraine,
• 21:19
  driving mercedes? And all the rest of all
• 21:22
  that's this information that goes on online. They
• 21:25
  they know that they're they're exploiting a situation
• 21:28
  where it's the lack of investment in our
• 21:30
  communities.
• 21:31
  And it's very real. Like, so for instance
• 21:33
  that, the old weather pitch
• 21:35
  of those 4 groups are include Del as
• 21:37
  well.
• 21:38
  Like, it's 1000000 euro old of investment for
• 21:41
  4 groups with... Who have hundreds of volunteers
• 21:44
  who provide a sporting healthy social opportunity for
• 21:47
  kids week in week out month after a
• 21:50
  month. Like, if we can't have that kind
• 21:52
  of investment in our areas, what does it
• 21:54
  say to be about to state is that
• 21:56
  they really just don't care. So does a
• 21:59
  real... But I think we to be very
• 22:00
  careful on this worry because, I, I don't
• 22:02
  think
• 22:03
  the left has been good over the last
• 22:05
  period of time in in being rooted in
• 22:08
  communities. Right? It's not. You can't lies pap
• 22:11
  propose or or grab up knockout
• 22:14
  to deal with some of these issues. So
• 22:15
  they're gonna take their they're painful. They literally
• 22:18
  painfully slow.
• 22:19
  That motion I put down is
• 22:21
  3 years old awards now, and it's gonna
• 22:23
  be next year, depending on funding, by the
• 22:25
  way.
• 22:27
  Before it's delivered. And depending on 1 day
• 22:29
  funding is the stick that are, you know,
• 22:31
  their
• 22:32
  they're
• 22:33
  keeping above our heads and I I do
• 22:35
  wonder About. And I think even yesterday at
• 22:38
  our air committee meeting where people are looking
• 22:40
  for upgrades of the surface of playgrounds in
• 22:43
  working class areas. That we can't even get
• 22:45
  them res resurfaced.
• 22:46
  You know, And The other, like it's.
• 22:49
  Yeah. Like, I think we we need to
• 22:51
  talk more and more about that. Yeah. People,
• 22:54
  like I questioned whether I'd run again in
• 22:56
  the local elections because local government self dysfunction,
• 22:59
  Has very little power. But I think if
• 23:01
  you are, if you care about the city.
• 23:03
  If you care about your community, you have
• 23:05
  to be active in it. And, you know,
• 23:08
  even when you're the 1 proposing
• 23:10
  different initiatives and it takes years to come.
• 23:13
  There is the potential for people who go
• 23:14
  where you're all a bunch of useless this,
• 23:16
  whatever. But I'll take that. You know, we'll
• 23:18
  all take that. That's fine. And then you
• 23:20
  try to have the conversation well is Actually
• 23:22
  not also F and Fin at National Level
• 23:24
  he'll hold por on our capital butcher.
• 23:27
  Things like this. So I think it's about
• 23:28
  been rooted in. I don't think there's an
• 23:30
  easy response to this. People have been getting
• 23:32
  a tortured of me today.
• 23:34
  And nice saying, look, can we do something
• 23:37
  do we need a a march? And I
• 23:38
  tell you right now,
• 23:40
  with the people that are involved
• 23:42
  in that violence yesterday. A lot of fear
• 23:45
  in the area because some of them are
• 23:47
  people that should be feared. They're dangerous people.
• 23:49
  So there's a lot of keeping the head
• 23:51
  down right now. And a lot of discussions
• 23:53
  that I'm having, where people show the morning
• 23:55
  and some people are saying where you, Like,
• 23:57
  you you should be standing with the people.
• 23:59
  I'm like, I don't agree with it, but
• 24:00
  like, let's have the discussion. Let's have the
• 24:02
  engagement with the department. Let's have a out.
• 24:04
  Let's have the information out. Let's talk about
• 24:07
  international air protection people. Let's talk about, the
• 24:10
  needs to accommodate them. And let's talk about,
• 24:12
  yeah, whether it should be cool luck or,
• 24:14
  you know, bald bridge or whatever, certain and
• 24:17
  holt as carbon airborne their. They're not being...
• 24:19
  But these are fragments. I don't like those
• 24:21
  arguments because that... That treats people as a
• 24:22
  problem. And I don't think the air problem.
• 24:24
  There are existing problems in communities. And the
• 24:27
  only way I think we'll resolve them is
• 24:29
  if we have proper discussions, proper engagement, but
• 24:32
  the department And let's have a out. Let's
• 24:34
  have a real discussion about where power resides
• 24:37
  where decisions and are made and in whose
• 24:39
  interest because the only way we'll get anything
• 24:41
  for our communities.
• 24:43
  And,
• 24:44
  you know, proper support for people who are
• 24:46
  coming here seeking in international protection is if
• 24:47
  we notice, I know that's
• 24:49
  kind of AAAT
• 24:50
  thing to say, but it is. It's a
• 24:52
  hard argument to make at the moment. People
• 24:54
  out and, a lot of people don't listen
• 24:55
  to us. They say it's pie in the
• 24:57
  sky Asher John, Jesus Come command. You know
• 24:59
  you come command. Then so I I think
• 25:01
  the wrong assumption maybe has been very
• 25:04
  divisive Aha. Yeah.
• 25:06
  And it's hard. Oh, I don't think I
• 25:08
  fully realized the impact that it has. It's
• 25:09
  created a big gulf,
• 25:12
  and it's played a big part human the
• 25:13
  other. People that we don't yet know, people
• 25:16
  who hopefully would come to our community. So
• 25:18
  look, I I think... Yeah. Look, I think
• 25:20
  it's about being consistent. It's open on the
• 25:22
  ground and I'm gonna be back around
• 25:24
  in about half an hour's time, just chatting
• 25:26
  to people in and around the area. And
• 25:28
  it's about making the the hard arguments about
• 25:30
  where the problems in our communities in our
• 25:33
  society where where they come from, where they
• 25:34
  emerge from, and named people seeking international protection.
• 25:38
  Absolutely. I I, you know, trying to take
• 25:41
  quite what, you know, can... There's... Because there's
• 25:43
  a lot of people, you know, outside the
• 25:44
  area around Dublin, you know, around the country
• 25:47
  who really want to say something and and
• 25:48
  want to express solidarity and and trying to
• 25:50
  think about that and, you know, highlighting that,
• 25:53
  you know, absolutely, these people, you know, seeking
• 25:56
  refuge and,
• 25:57
  you know, our our, you know, just want
• 25:59
  to contribute. They want to, you know, I
• 26:01
  chat to the guys and and run with
• 26:02
  them from, you know, East Wall in in
• 26:04
  their in the center there and, you know,
• 26:06
  we've my friends would a number of them,
• 26:07
  and should they just they're... They are working.
• 26:09
  You know, they're working in construction. They're working
• 26:11
  in,
• 26:12
  you know, hotels, and they just want to
• 26:15
  contribute contribution. And these are the, you know,
• 26:17
  the so called single un vetted males. And
• 26:19
  I wonder about
• 26:21
  you know, the social media thing and maybe
• 26:22
  need just to bring you in there. Like,
• 26:25
  it comes back to you, like, there is
• 26:27
  organizations with resources like trade unions, for example,
• 26:30
  even civil society bigger civil society groups. I
• 26:33
  wonder because I feel we need a social
• 26:35
  media response that there's something that, like creating
• 26:38
  the videos. I know there were some good
• 26:39
  ones they saw where, you know, they showed,
• 26:41
  you know, all the different groups and it's
• 26:43
  not... You know, you have to be careful
• 26:44
  as well about you know, migrants and and
• 26:46
  what they are doing and how they're contributing
• 26:47
  society, of course it's not just about what
• 26:49
  they contribute their human beings, you know? But
• 26:51
  things are is positive
• 26:53
  videos that we could, you know, try and
• 26:55
  promotion and put around there some way to
• 26:57
  counter because as John said, it is social
• 26:59
  media and we need to try and find
• 27:01
  some way of we're not gonna stop the
• 27:03
  social media guys straight away. So in some
• 27:04
  ways, we need to try and I don't
• 27:06
  know find counter messages that could be put
• 27:08
  across. What do you think?
• 27:11
  Yeah. It's suppose goes back to the podcast
• 27:12
  that me and Emily we're on with you
• 27:14
  a few months ago, Rory as well you
• 27:15
  know And the messaging and the research, we
• 27:18
  we have I suppose I wanna go back
• 27:19
  a couple of spec steps and talk about
• 27:21
  what Dumb trust.
• 27:23
  So we have fine instead. Like,
• 27:26
  the fire right or the haitian the extreme
• 27:28
  and the disinformation that wins on social media.
• 27:31
  It wins. And it's very hard as someone
• 27:33
  else that I saying, yes saying someone said,
• 27:34
  you can't win against a box. Or you
• 27:36
  can't win against that. So of those trusted
• 27:39
  relationships on the grounds that John and Daniel
• 27:40
  have, and it's at decades of work. That
• 27:43
  goes into it. And it's all the volunteers
• 27:44
  are in the football groups, or I was
• 27:46
  talking to a lot of youth groups up
• 27:47
  around the area yesterday who weren't sure what
• 27:49
  to do and how do we respond and
• 27:52
  and and I'm panicked by the Bai dash.
• 27:55
  You know what I mean So from my
• 27:57
  perspective, it's it's about trust
• 27:59
  where trusted leaders in the community. And what's
• 28:01
  the message that trusted leaders can get up.
• 28:03
  And then it's going back to, like, it's
• 28:05
  done opened up. That c is a very,
• 28:07
  very great place. It's a diverse place.
• 28:10
  It's a place of strong people have had
• 28:11
  to be strong. Whose place of resilient people
• 28:13
  who have had to be resilient.
• 28:14
  It's like in the Northeast Tennessee city you
• 28:16
  where I live have not to far from
• 28:17
  Dani diana. And we see the resilience stuff
• 28:19
  there in the Northeast Dinner city. You know
• 28:20
  what I mean I see a day in
• 28:21
  day out,
• 28:22
  Similar communities in some ways of how they're
• 28:24
  treated by the state. So it's about those
• 28:26
  trusted leaders on the ground, and it's about
• 28:28
  connecting those trusted leaders and having them to
• 28:31
  spread the message because when I I've walked
• 28:33
  around John I've walked around with Daniel and
• 28:35
  Boulder harry and they're chat away to people,
• 28:37
  and they're trusted, and they'll get the message
• 28:39
  and they can talk and it's a consistent
• 28:41
  approach. It's the consistent approach, but it's also
• 28:44
  having the fire there to distract us. They're
• 28:47
  jumping up and down and they're go look
• 28:48
  at me, look at me. I've got these
• 28:50
  simple there's while I born the building and.
• 28:52
  I... I'm just... I'm in a bit she's
• 28:53
  here, but that's what they're doing. Right? Yeah.
• 28:55
  What's the counter waste to that, Rory right
• 28:58
  now?
• 28:59
  I understand
• 29:00
  a need... Sometimes there's knee jerk, we have
• 29:02
  to do something. Okay. So you've got a
• 29:04
  a response, but there needs to be a
• 29:05
  race class gender inclusive response. A along the
• 29:08
  time people are feeling left out and they're
• 29:09
  angry, and they're going on these kind of
• 29:11
  fire right
• 29:12
  because they're not being seen right now. So
• 29:14
  if we want people to be seen, we
• 29:16
  include everybody. We have that big way in
• 29:18
  our community. Raise clash gender inclusive narrative that
• 29:21
  we see in our communities, And what does
• 29:23
  that mean? That everybody's working together in the
• 29:25
  green. He's not an element of that, and
• 29:27
  Daniel's kinda on on on on Or worn
• 29:29
  in the show with the football coming together
• 29:31
  where, like, new members of the community. And
• 29:33
  All members with the community were in having
• 29:35
  the crack on a Sunday playing for football.
• 29:36
  You know what I mean, and slag each
• 29:37
  other. That's what it was about. You know?
• 29:39
  Or as, like, John's been fighting for that
• 29:42
  football pitch for those 4 clubs up in
• 29:44
  cool and it's taken years of fight, And
• 29:46
  that's the trough there and the consistency there.
• 29:48
  To trust and build towards that...
• 29:50
  This is not easy. This is a grassroots
• 29:52
  approach like what Daniel said, and it's gonna
• 29:54
  take a long work. I think down here.
• 29:56
  The haters are here. We're gonna have to
• 29:58
  learn how to organize. We're gonna have to
• 29:59
  learn how to adapt. And it's about,
• 30:02
  I think community leaders understand how to respond.
• 30:05
  Build trust. I think to has to be
• 30:07
  a kind of a unity of the left,
• 30:09
  but there definitely has to be candidates
• 30:12
  that.
• 30:13
  Are gonna run in the community. Our part...
• 30:15
  Like, our, you know, are there to work
• 30:17
  for the community, are known in the community.
• 30:20
  And build trust in the community. I think
• 30:21
  paper candidates are just trying oppose. So I
• 30:23
  think that's actually going to backfire and we'll
• 30:26
  turn people towards who they see maybe trusted
• 30:28
  in working on the ground Be very careful
• 30:30
  in our approach to that too. You know?
• 30:32
  So I think there's yet. And I also
• 30:34
  think as as like myself and emily said,
• 30:36
  if people can go out and be constructive
• 30:37
  in our communities, there's also way persuade to
• 30:40
  be constructive. So, you know, maybe there's a
• 30:42
  way of, like, okay, our pavement are are
• 30:44
  are playgrounds are not being kinda res resurfaced?
• 30:47
  Or where's the protest outside don't sit you
• 30:49
  counsel to get that done. You know what
• 30:50
  I? So where can we get people out
• 30:52
  there say where demand in is for our
• 30:54
  children and for our local community.
• 30:56
  And we're... Like, they're not doing that. That's
• 30:58
  what the the extremist are not doing that.
• 30:59
  That's... I think there's a positive. But that's
• 31:01
  not easy. That takes trust and it takes
• 31:03
  work. But also does an element of, like,
• 31:07
  a lot of this work has been done
• 31:08
  by volunteers. It's across across the country right
• 31:11
  now, responding to the fire is a real...
• 31:13
  It's a lot of people are doing as
• 31:14
  as volunteers, and that's not sustainable either. So
• 31:17
  I'm not... So we do need a proper
• 31:19
  political response to this. Are response to inequality,
• 31:22
  but also we need,
• 31:23
  kind of social media. There's a big role
• 31:26
  in,
• 31:28
  you know, in in regular social media regulation,
• 31:30
  and we've been calling for the recommend system
• 31:32
  to be turned off, which means that's at
• 31:34
  the right to amplification. So social media will
• 31:37
  amplify negative posts so we can see that
• 31:39
  on x,
• 31:40
  Tiktok, Twitter, Youtube. And there is a way
• 31:43
  of turning that off. Now, commission them on
• 31:46
  initially, were doing said they would do that,
• 31:47
  and then they they they carved at the
• 31:49
  last minute. So that should be a clear
• 31:51
  demand from all progressive and parties of the
• 31:54
  left. That social media regulation is part of
• 31:56
  keeping our community safe, You know? Yeah. Yeah.
• 31:59
  Absolutely. Thanks me for that. And. You know,
• 32:01
  I think the the constructive
• 32:04
  focus is so important. And it's
• 32:08
  something when we think about, and we, you
• 32:09
  know, we look around at the housing crisis
• 32:11
  and homelessness ongoing you know, that they're still...
• 32:13
  You know, and and other issues that, you
• 32:15
  know, we need to find a constructive focus
• 32:17
  and and a focus on, you know, the
• 32:19
  the der election, the vacancy that can actually
• 32:22
  be turned into homes as opposed to being
• 32:23
  burned down.
• 32:26
  Daniel,
• 32:27
  last word to yourself, just for you, what
• 32:29
  what do you think it either ways forward
• 32:31
  now and and the ways people can get
• 32:32
  involved and, you know, can,
• 32:35
  what what can we do? Well, it it's
• 32:37
  not it's not investment in the the Deep
• 32:40
  route community the organizations the full football clubs
• 32:43
  to sports clubs. There's John who met he
• 32:45
  mentioned he erased motion 3 years ago.
• 32:47
  For a 1 football pitch between 4 clubs.
• 32:51
  You know, days kid, like, john John and
• 32:53
  tell in better data detail how many members
• 32:55
  at these for clothes, Like you're look on
• 32:57
  upwards of towels and kids, towels and people.
• 32:59
  That's without the volunteers and people that use
• 33:01
  this as an outlet are a sense of
• 33:03
  belonging, like,
• 33:04
  you know, that that's not it on the
• 33:06
  protest but they're infinite water bottles for kids
• 33:08
  on on the weekends. You know,
• 33:10
  we need more investment in these groups.
• 33:12
  These are the community hopes. These are the
• 33:14
  safety nets that save and people of all
• 33:16
  ages ages, you know, it's... It's crazy to
• 33:19
  me out that the state have not
• 33:21
  it had they neglected these and and disrespect
• 33:25
  these clubs because the walk they've been the
• 33:26
  own for generations, like when when when these
• 33:29
  areas were forced built,
• 33:30
  if clubs they kill, setting up. David a
• 33:33
  4 spread of, like, extra exercise people are
• 33:35
  getting out and days of states, I'm sure
• 33:36
  back in in in in the day is
• 33:37
  it gets it's crazy to me. It really
• 33:40
  is and
• 33:42
  hate
• 33:42
  now that an area, another area
• 33:45
  in Dublin when you Google.
• 33:47
  Is gonna come up says now. So if
• 33:49
  Killed says now,
• 33:51
  and like, if cl kill more, Ga going
• 33:54
  back
• 33:55
  john V cl that have been the all
• 33:57
  maze and work as well as a box
• 33:58
  and clubs and the dance groups that been
• 34:00
  the all maze and walk.
• 34:02
  And when you Google K lock, it's gonna
• 34:04
  say ko says now, and they're gonna get
• 34:06
  the press. They give 2.
• 34:08
  You've have 2 Google searches from East. East
• 34:10
  says no, and then we're trailing down. You
• 34:13
  know, it it goes East wall then leads
• 34:15
  on to Roy and all the names we've
• 34:16
  mentioned there and the the farley aj undertake.
• 34:19
  You know, we're trailing way down in the
• 34:20
  walk that we're doing. You know, we 14
• 34:22
  different national for a hundred and 24 members.
• 34:26
  You know,
• 34:27
  what we're playing on A7A aside for pop.
• 34:30
  With no 11 aside for pop. Could you
• 34:32
  imagine it forward are welcome we could deal
• 34:34
  to our mule for new members Would you
• 34:36
  imagine the meat in place we could have
• 34:38
  for the new 1 the old coming together.
• 34:40
  We haven't got it. They haven't got it
• 34:42
  in Ko, It's that under investment. It's that
• 34:45
  neglect.
• 34:46
  That only think really needs to order around
• 34:48
  very fast so over in serious trouble.
• 34:50
  Absolutely. Know. You're absolutely right, Daniel and bringing
• 34:52
  people together to get that and you think
• 34:55
  like,
• 34:56
  it's just so frustrating because the money is
• 34:58
  there, you know, we've got billions and billions
• 35:00
  in surplus,
• 35:01
  and they're, you know, putting it away in
• 35:03
  the the rainy day funds and and the
• 35:05
  investment funds that are rather than actually investing
• 35:08
  right now in in, you know, infrastructure like
• 35:10
  that. Look Not. Right. Yeah. Look at the
• 35:12
  look it's went into the n see. Since
• 35:14
  20 16 17 because of the field. 46000000.
• 35:18
  What has that earliest saying?
• 35:20
  What has that saying? And what our 46000000?
• 35:23
  A redevelopment of the deutsche park, which is
• 35:24
  fabulous don't get me wrong. Yeah. But nothing
• 35:26
  else,
• 35:27
  give box and cloves, you dance groups that's
• 35:30
  going out and trying to get private yet
• 35:31
  to get away to a dance war cup,
• 35:33
  but walk with 60 70 kids from Dublin
• 35:36
  warm ground 0.
• 35:37
  Yeah. You know, a lot of there... It's
• 35:39
  it's it's crazy. It's crazy. So. The moon
• 35:42
  is there already are bang on. Yeah. No
• 35:44
  it is. And it's so important. And then
• 35:45
  it comes back to any qualities, you know,
• 35:46
  well 3 areas There's no question been able
• 35:49
  to afford to go away to whatever it
• 35:50
  is, you know, and that's that gap, you
• 35:52
  know, that that's there. But, listen, I'm going
• 35:54
  to, finish guys. Thanks so much Daniel En,
• 35:58
  anita Mcdonald and John Lyon, cancer John Lyon,
• 36:01
  counselor, Daniel Ellis. Thanks so much for coming
• 36:03
  on today in very, very short notice,
• 36:06
  and listen best luck with all the work
• 36:08
  that everyone is doing in the coming days
• 36:10
  and weeks and and
• 36:12
  build in hope and keep and to nurture
• 36:14
  that nurture community and hope. Thanks so much,
• 36:15
  guys.
• 36:17
  And thank you, listeners for sticking with us,
• 36:19
  please If you can share the podcast around,
• 36:20
  podcast
• 36:21
  independent media, produced by Tony Groves, Echo chambers,
• 36:24
  To shack, please if you can, support us,
• 36:27
  m and, yeah, let's keep keep going. Thank
• 36:29
  you so much everyone for listening and talk
• 36:31
  to all very very. 4. I saw the
• 36:33
  delayed of mourning.
• 36:35
  A ship he Ross was laying.
• 36:40
  From Every corner of the world came sail.
• 36:45
  The 50
• 36:50
  To stand beside the Spanish people
• 36:54
  try and stand the rising
• 36:56
  time.
• 37:00
  Were full and wealthy.
• 37:03
  Frank
• 37:04
  Men came from the other zone.
• 37:08
  Even
• 37:09
  the others were bleeding
• 37:17
  love against the force of evil.
• 37:21
  Brother hugged against the freshest time.
• 37:46
  And
• 37:51
  From pi
• 37:52
  us appeared and easy
• 37:55
  from Berry k member of young christian brother.
• 38:00
  Side by side fortified guidance Spain.
• 38:05
  Tell me woods 17
• 38:06
  Garden.
• 38:09
  With defeat he to hold the gold.
• 38:14
  From dublin
• 38:16
  Del
• 38:33
  try your own.
• 38:37
  Let us remember them.
• 38:43
  Many Irish
• 38:45
  heard the call of frank.
• 38:48
  Giant hitler and
• 38:50
  to.
• 38:52
  A propaganda from the pull pretend newspapers.
• 38:57
  Help Duffy,
• 38:58
  Duel and lewis his.
• 39:01
  And the word came from the church support
• 39:04
  the Nazi
• 39:06
  Men of
• 39:07
  Failed
• 39:08
  again
• 39:10
  and put the bishop bless the blue shut
• 39:13
  and go.
• 39:15
  As the sale needs the sw to Spain.
• 39:30
  The know the kill side.
• 39:34
  Let us remember them to know.
• 39:38
  This song is attributed to Frank Ryan.
• 39:42
  Get conway and coli to
• 39:48
  charlie
• 39:49
  and
• 39:55
  Danny boyle
• 39:57
  plays our brown and Charlotte dun.
• 40:01
  Thomas and
• 40:02
  from the fall.
• 40:46
  Us
• 40:47
  them