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Is Atlanta the Worst Sports Town? Killer Mike Doesn’t Think So · Sports In America with David Greene

• DAVID GREENE, HOST: You know, in the whole psychology of sports and being a sports fan, I think there's this one delicious thing that can happen sometimes. It's when you have completely given up on a season. You're like, "I can't have nice things this year, my team sucks." You accept this reality. It's just the way it is, and you're ready to move on. And then this crazy thing happens. A team totally turns things around and looks like they have potential, and suddenly it's like a gift out of nowhere that you didn't expect. And now you can just enjoy it, and you're playing with house money. And I think that's kind of how Boston Red Sox fans are feeling this season. I mean, they had basically given up. Things looked awful, and as Boston fans do, they were just like, "Well, we can't have nice things, we're cursed, and this year isn't ours." And suddenly, the Boston Red Sox went on this insane tear, and now, you know, as a non-Boston fan, I'm gonna just try and jinx them and say that they're definitely gonna win the World Series. And yeah, so we want to talk about the Boston Red Sox this week, and I have Jamie McClellan with us. He's a producer with the Ringer's Boston sports podcast, "Off the Pike," also a columnist for Gothamist. He is a lifelong Boston sports fan who has spent this season going through the emotional. roller coaster that I just described. Jamie, World Series? It's a lock. JAMIE McCLELLAN: (Laughs) I'm not sure about a lock, but it's certainly in the cards. I think you have to consider them. I mean, like you said, they just they seemingly can't lose all of a sudden, and it's not a very strong year in terms of the American League, so I think it's wide open, and I don't see why the Red Sox can't win it. DG: Talk about the psychological kind of sports fan swing. I mean, what was like six weeks ago or whatever? I mean, you guys looked awful. What does it feel like to suddenly find hope and go on a streak like this for a fan? JM: It's been great, and I think you mentioned it. It's all relative. So, you know, if you're just a world beater right out of the gates, it's still fun, but there's something sweet about them looking dead in the water, I mean, they looked absolutely terrible. They could not score any runs. Everyone was getting hurt. They looked like a triple-A team that wasn't having any fun on the baseball field. It wasn't any fun to watch them. I mean, they were in last place, and I think a lot of people were looking ahead at their summers and just thinking, what am I gonna watch on TV in terms of sports? So, they've given our summers back. I've heard that from a lot of listeners on the podcast and stuff of people saying that. DG: Giving us summer back. (Laughs) JM: I mean, look, there's plenty of fun things to do in summer, go to the beach, et cetera. But I mean, the Red Sox mean a lot to people in Boston, and I think there's an appreciation that they're playing meaningful baseball and they're playing with a lot of joy and excitement. I mean, they look great on a nightly basis. DG: Well, and they weren't just bad. There was a feeling that the Red Sox this year were really boring, too, right? And I mean the idea of like, you know, summer and going to Fenway, and that being just such a part of this time of year to have a boring version of your franchise out there on the field at Fenway sounds kind of miserable. JM: Yeah. I mean, they were scoring under four runs a game, and like I said, not a lot of exciting star players, at least on the offensive side of the ball. And you know, I went to a few games early in the season, and the vibes were terrible. I mean, I heard people chanting "Sell the team," which I have never I'm 32 years old— DG: In Boston? That belongs in Pittsburgh, where I'm a sports fan, not in Boston, I feel like. (Laughs) JM: I agree and I think I mean, look, they clearly have high expectations, and they've won four World Series this current ownership group, so in some ways it's a little crazy, but I don't know. It it's been it's been a few testy years, I would say amongst the fan base, and people were kinda fed up, and like you said, there just wasn't a lot of fun happening both watching the team or on the team. DG: Yeah. You know, I have to say I'm gonna talk about my producer, my colleague Michael Olcott, who I adore except for his fandom, when it comes to certain New England sports teams. He's a diehard Red Sox fan. He put together a list of questions for you, and they are so written like a little giddy kid who suddenly was given like a pot of candy. JM: (Laughs) DG: With all of these names that many of our listeners are not even gonna know, but it's like, you know, my god, like this person was traded and this happened and now this is how we got here. But I do wanna kinda get some of the characters straight. Craig Breslow, who's, you know, GM, Head of Baseball Operations, what do they call it in Boston? JM: Yes. Yeah, Head of Baseball Operations, but de facto GM. DG: Okay. So I mean, he was trying to build something coming into 2026 that looked, in the beginning, like it was a pretty awful product. What was his mission? What was his goal coming into this season? JM: Yeah, I mean the the phrase you heard over and over again heading into the year was "Run prevention," which means good pitching and good defense, basically. But he said it so much it almost became a joke in Boston and— DG: Like we're not focused on home runs and offense, we're just focused on "run prevention?" JM: They're trying to win a game, 3-2, 1-0, scratch it out. But I mean, look, he put some money and resources into it in the offseason. You know, he made a trade with the Cardinals to bring in Sonny Gray, who's been a veteran pitcher, has had a lot of success, and Willson Contreras, a first baseman who, he hits the ball, but he's very good defensively at first base, which has been a problem for years with the Red Sox. And Caleb Durbin, a young, promising third baseman from the Brewers, also very good at defense. So that was definitely the plan. And he even made a splash in free agency, where he got Ranger Suárez from the Phillies, who's a very good pitcher, does great in the postseason, which is always helpful, but they shelled out some money for him, which they have not been doing in recent years, where they gave him five years, $130 million. So again, like his blueprint, he was backing it up with tangible moves. So I think people were willing to see what was going to happen. DG: Did people just basically give up and say like that was just an awful plan and it's not working? JM: I mean, it's complicated, but I wouldn't say that incompletely. I would say there are a lot of things that are going right for this team right now in terms of why they're winning so many games. But I would say in large part it is because they're pitching very well, and they do play great defense. DG: So run prevention is working? JM: I mean, look, they're also they've hit the most home runs since the All-Star break, so they're they're also producing more runs. Like they went from under four runs before this streak to almost six runs a game now. So they're definitely hitting better, but I would say the pitching is the strength of this team, and their defense has been good. DG: So interesting when you're in management. It's like the line between total failure and vindication success can be so small. Like it, you know, I'm like a Philadelphia 76ers fan when it comes to basketball, and I've been told to trust the process for what feels like 50 years now. Now, we have LeBron James, and like if the Sixers somehow pull out a title, you look back at the process and it's like, "The process was right all along. Like it was just a matter of time." Is that the kind of thing we're seeing within Red Sox Nation right now? It's like this process that, you know, runs prevention focused on pitching defense, like maybe it'll win us a World Series title. JM: I think if it wins a World Series title, certainly it'll have worked, but I wouldn't say Boston Red Sox fans have a lot of trust for multi year rebuilds. And again, they had so much success in the first part of the 21st century. They won four World Series, most recently in 2018, but it's been a bit rocky since then. They traded away their best player of the time, Mookie Betts, which a lot of fans still aren't over. They've had multiple last place finishes, so it there's been some patience, I think again, compared to other fan bases, less so, but the process the problem with the process, I think maybe is there's a one cohesive vision in management where since they traded their their superstar outfielder Mookie Betts, they've had three different front offices. So it's like, what is the process exactly when they're led by different people with slightly different visions? So I think that's where there was a bit of agitation, I would say, amongst the fan base, about like w what have you done for me lately? Let's see some wins. So I mean, luckily they had, but I wouldn't say I think patience was wearing thin, I'd say, going into the season. DG: So the turnaround was really rooted in it was a 15-game winning streak, right? JM: Yes, the most in franchise history. Tied the record. DG: That's a that's incredible. I mean, it is that something that you might be more likely to see from a baseball team that is focusing on great pitching and great defense? Does that house does that somehow give you a better chance at hitting a streak like that? JM: I think it's an interesting thought because hitting famously can go streaky, you get hot, you get cold, but if you can throw out guys on a nightly basis that again, prevent a lot of runs from scoring, you're gonna give yourself a chance at least to winning, and then you add on top of that kind of baseline just the the momentum and the good vibes around the team. I think that probably is a good recipe for it, but at the same time, I mean, you know, we can sit here and try to figure out why exactly they won 15 games, but at the end of the day, it's kind of unbelievable. So, I don't know how to explain it. It happened, and it was amazing, but definitely a minor miracle to win 15 baseball games in a row because that's not how it's supposed to work in this sport. DG: Yeah. How much of it do you think is vibes and kind of catching momentum in the clubhouse and gelling as a team? And how much of it is, you know, sort of more talent, mechanics, managerial decisions when it comes to just, you know, a chunk of wins like that? JM: Well, it's interesting you mentioned managerial decisions because I do think one of the main things that happened this year is they fired Alex Cora, the manager of the Red Sox, and Chad Tracy, who was their minor league manager in Triple A, he came in to run the ship. And I would say that's been the major turning point in the season. And I think on one hand it's vibes. I think he gets along with the players, and people like playing for him. But I do think there's also tangible strategies he's employing. Like they've been bunting more than basically any other team, which the Red Sox never did under their previous manager, Alex Cora. So I think he's had a lot to do with both, just like changing the energy in the building, but also, you know, pulling the right strings, I would say, in terms of who's playing, when to bring in relievers, and things of that nature. And again, it's important to know that when they were playing terribly early in the season, they were massively underproducing. Like this was the most expensive payroll in Red Sox history, and they looked terrible. So they had the talent, but it just wasn't gelling. And I do think Chad Tracy, the manager, has a lot to do with that. DG: Hm. What's your Boston Red Sox fan story? JM: Yeah, I mean, I grew up in the suburbs of Boston, and I was born in 1993, so I was kind of came of age when my dad's a huge fan, and my brother is as well, and my mom too. And you know, Pedro Martinez and Nomar Garciaparra were the big stars. That's who I always heard about, and I remember the 2003-2004 seasons very clearly. That's when the Red Sox went back-to-back American League championships against the Yankees both times. Famously in '03 they lost an absolutely devastating Game 7, where Pedro, the you know, hero of Boston, was left in too long. He loses the game or at least loses the lead. They lose an extra inning. I remember my parents saying, "Jamie, you need to go to sleep. We'll wake you up if they win." Never get woken up. So I kinda figured out what was gonna happen the next day. But in some ways I'm y I was glad to be that young because I don't know how I would have handled a loss like that at this age. Like it was absolutely devastating, but kind of like this win streak. You know, the low lows make the highs even sweeter, and the next year when they won in '04 and, you know, broke the Curse of the Bambino, I mean, it's hard to describe, just how happy people were in Boston. And it changed everything. I mean, it's been amazing what they've been able to do since then. I don't think anyone in Boston could've believed that they've been this successful. DG: Let me finish by just deepening my effort to jinx other baseball teams because I'm an angry, you know, angry Pittsburgh Pirates fan. What is the scene like in an electric Fenway Park in the playoffs? Because that's one of the things I mean, you know, I kind of have a love-hate with the Red Sox. I went to school in Boston and loved going to Fenway. I mean, magical. And I feel like October too, when that chill in the air is coming, and people on cold nights can be bundled up and standing. There's just something so special about that ballpark at playoff time. What are your reflections on that? JM: The last game I was at I went to it was the best game, actually, best baseball game I've ever been to in my life, was the 2021 Wildcard game, which was a you know, best of one game they used to do in the playoff series against the Yankees at Fenway Park, and it was just electric. I mean, the stadium, as you mentioned, is so historic and beautiful. It's that beautiful green color, but it's also very intimate. Like, the seats are really packed together. So, I mean, when people are excited, I mean everyone's standing, everyone's yelling and screaming, you're playing your arch rivals. I remember Xander Bogaerts hit a home run in the first inning to kinda blow the game open right off the bat. And like from then on, people are just making so much noise, and it was beautiful. I mean, it was an amazing game, and like you said, it was just rocking and rolling and and one thing I noticed with new stadiums, too is they're so much bigger that you're seating or you're sitting so much further away from the actual play, and I really love that about Fenway. You really are on top of the action, and I think that creates a pretty amazing atmosphere. DG: Yeah. Well, I love talking to fans who just, you know, speak to the soul of their teams and their cities and their own experience. We're actually we're gonna listen to a whole conversation with Killer Mike, who's the rapper, but also just a diehard Atlanta Braves and just Atlanta sports fan, which would be really cool. But yeah, best of luck to the Sox. It has been a wild ride this win streak, and really appreciate you talking to us. JM: Thanks, David. Go Sox. DG: All right, that was Jamie McClellan. He's a producer with the Ringer's Boston sports podcast “Off the Pike.” And you can also catch his writing because he's a columnist for Gothamist. And we'll be right back with more Sports in America and a conversation with diehard Atlanta sports fan Killer Mike. MIDROLL KILLER MIKE (MICHAEL RENDER): My favorite rivalry in sports is Atlanta, New Orleans, because all we do is get drunk, smoke a little weed together, dance, eat great soul food, and whoever wins, wins. [MUSIC] DG: One of the most fun things about sports, and there are many, is the rivalries between cities. But there's one metro area in particular that might not get the credit it deserves, Atlanta, Georgia. There are the tired tropes about the Southern city. Most of the people who live there are transplants, so they don't actually root for local teams. That means the stadiums are empty and they're practically giving away tickets, which leads to blown season after blown season. Yeah, this is a narrative that really aggravates Michael Render. You probably know this guy by the name Killer Mike. ["The Real A (WHTA)" by Yung Booke, T.I., and Killer Mike plays] DG: That is who I am talking to today. Yes, the rapper, Killer Mike. If you're wondering why we're bringing a Grammy-winning musician onto a sports show, well, it's because he's probably the biggest Atlanta sports fan I know. He's from the city and he's held that identity close to him since he was a kid. He also calls some of the city's star athletes friends. But sports isn't Killer Mike's only passion. He's also a fixture of Atlanta's hip-hop culture and an activist who's spoken out against police brutality and mass incarceration. KILLER MIKE IN PRESS CONFERENCE: We want to see the system that sets up for systemic racism burnt to the ground. DG: In this conversation, we'll talk to Killer Mike about why Atlanta gets a bad rap as a sports town and why he disagrees wholeheartedly, plus what sports and music have in common and offer us as a people, especially when we feel the most divided. We sort of crossed paths when I was hosting Morning Edition at NPR. I think we set up an interview between you and George Clinton. KM: I just saw him. I was just with him last weekend. We were in the same hotel in Los Angeles, and we did that interview with him and at later I interviewed him in one of my barber shops and I just love the old man. He's amazing— he and his grandkids and his wife. It was really cool DG: It was such a cool thing to listen to. I think it was your reverence for him that was so beautiful. KM: Yeah, I have a sincere, sincere, reverence for him. DG: Yeah. KM: Music is my religion, so it's like a reverend for me, you know what I mean? Or a religious leader. He's helped my mood and vibe, and I saw my parents dance to him, and my mother smoked marijuana, and they wear high waist jeans, and you know what I mean, it's just all the hippie hipster stuff that 70s parents and 80s parents did. His music was the backdrop for us, so absolutely I have a lot of reverence for him. DG: That's awesome. Well, it sounds like sports is kind of a religion for you too, is that fair to say? KM: Yeah, man. From Atlanta, you got to have faith even if it lets you down, you know. So when you talk about sports in Atlanta, man, what the Braves have meant to me, what the Hawks have meant to me, the Falcons later on when we got them to unite, what professional wrestling, you know, even though it's sports entertainment, but what WCW did, I mean, I'm thankful for my city for wanting the teams. I'm thankful for my owners that have kept the teams in the city or close to more than that. So sports has been good to Atlanta. It gave us a lot to celebrate and it gave us lot to cry about on each other's shoulders when the Mets were kicking our butts in the 80s o it feels really good to see the Braves in the lead now, you know. DG: It's so funny, you saying you had some sad times. I mean, the Braves' glory in the early 90s was my misery. I'm a Pittsburgh Pirate fan. KM: Oh man! (Laughs) DG: And I feel like there was a night in 1992 that probably you and I experienced very differently. KM: Very differently (Laughs). Yeah, wow. DG: Cause I think we're about the same age. You're— I'm 50, you're 52? KM: Yeah, I just turned 51, yeah. DG: All right happy birthday. KM: Man, thank you so much. DG: How do you remember that night when Sid Bream scored? KM: Man, I don't think I got the call. I think I was running around and I think my bro Mark called me and said, you got to see it, you got see it. So I actually saw it later in the day, but I was just remembering screaming on the phone. You know what I mean? Just like, man, this is, and I can't remember if I was at my mom's house or if I wasn't my own apartment at that point, but no, no, I was at my mother's house. I was at my mom house. I remember my grandparents were ecstatic too, cause they were Braves fans, but that was the hell of a night. Yeah, the city it went up. What was I in like 11th grade? Is was '92? That had to be 11th grade, wow. DG: I really feel like we should have a content warning here for all Pittsburgh sports fans. This is really hard to listen to but anyway, I'm going to pause and give you a little bit of context on the game we are talking about right now. This is the MLB postseason 1992 when the Atlanta Braves were facing my Pittsburgh Pirates. It was Game 7 of the National League Championship series winner goes to the World Series. Going into the bottom of the ninth Pirates are up 2-0. I'm feeling pretty good. Then all of a sudden it's 2-1 then all of the sudden the bases are loaded. Base hit, David Justice scores from third to tie the game. And then Sid Bream, yes, the notoriously slow first baseman, Sid Bream, scores from second, sliding in before getting tagged, though I think he was actually tagged, sad there wasn't replay back then, but whatever. The Braves win 3-2. They defeat the Pirates and the Braaves go to the World Series. This is, as you can probably tell, one of the most traumatizing sports moments of my life and adding to the devastation before Sid Bream joined the Braves. He played for the Pirates. You know, we've made t-shirts in Pittsburgh. "Sid Bream ruined my childhood." KM: Yeah! (Laughs) DG: Which it did. I mean, that was the toughest‚ and such a— so interesting about sports that I mean two cities, two fan bases, two people like you and me can experience something so differently. KM: But what I loved about baseball in particular is baseball is a great unifier because baseball, you could see the players, you could see all the players were not alike. You could see players in the dugout getting along together. And like I said, growing up in a world where everybody, like I can often identify with people from places like Kansas, Iowa, smaller towns, cause you only grow up amongst the people who are like you. So baseball gave me a sense of diversity early, you know what I'm saying? Going to the games, seeing other kids that were from North Fulton, that, you know, I mean, we went to different schools to get an opportunity. So I've always loved the sport. And baseball used to do a great job of being in inner cities. Major League Baseball did a great job of planning themselves in inner cities. And, you know, them pulling out I think is, you know, I think it's just man, it's one of the most terrible things that's happened. I wish we could get them back in the cities. There used to be an MLB program over in the Cartersville. That was a great center. We shot a video over there years ago. But I remember when that thing closed, you could just see the disappointment in the neighborhood. So, MLB, man, let's get MLB back in inner cities and make it not as expensive for kids to play. It's very difficult for kids pay to play today. DG: I remember talking to Andrew McCutchen some years ago interviewing him and he said the same thing. Like, you know, he had to fight to find a path to Major League Baseball. KM: It's been an amazing opportunity for kids out of the Caribbean and South America. And I'm not mad at that at all because, you know, speaking is for one of the greatest Puerto Rican players. But what a lot of people don't know is Afro Latino is a word we use a lot now, but in the African-American community, that man was just, he was— during Black History Month. He was on the wall. You know what I mean? So we learned— DG: You talking about Clemente? KM: Of course I'm talking about Roberto Clemente. I'm sorry for everybody, I assume knew baseball. But when African-Americans kids in the 70s and 80s, you grow up and in February Ebony and all these Black companies would do calendars. Budweiser had a famous Black History calendar. But Roberto Clemente, although Afro-Latino, was in just Black History Month. That's who's jersey your mom would buy you. You know what I mean? That's who you wore. He was one of your baseball heroes. You know, I mean, so it amazes me that it's been a global game. It's grown. And we know how, of course, Africans got in places like Puerto Rico, Brazil, and Venezuela, place like that. So genetically, we're very similar, but it's amazing what baseball has done to transform those societies and provide a pathway to opportunity, entrepreneurship, for social change. You know what I mean? It's amazing, what's happened. With that said, I think that baseball should be reinvesting in the inner cities too, because I think you could be growing in the Caribbean in the same way the NBA is growing here and growing in Africa. And has spent years doing it in Europe. So I'd like to see MLB back in American cities. You know, we were a better country for having— because baseball seasons are longer. Like the neighborhood I'm sitting in, there were two parks. Jamal Lewis, who ran for the Ravens, played for Adamsville. The other park was Collier Park. Collier Park was a big baseball park. So the whole neighborhood would just go out and watch our friends play, you know? And I think that baseball brings neighborhoods together in a way that some sports don't. Because it's a longer game, it's more relaxed, you have more talk time. And like I say, my grandparents were big on baseball, so I'm a believer in it. DG: So ESPN, I know you've been asked about this, has called Atlanta like the "worst sports town in America." KM: Yeah, but we just got called the best business sports sound in America. We just got call number one for that today. So... DG: There you go! KM: We like us, you know, we we buy our jerseys. (Laughs) DG: What, like, I've never, never seen Atlanta as a bad sports town, KM: It's not. It's not. DG: But it's like ESPN seems to have this narrative that it's, like, the fans aren't into the teams. Like, you're not riding winning and losing as much as other sports towns. Like, what do you make of that? KM: I think that Atlanta, we love our, our guys. I call our teams, our teams are guys. We love our guys, right? We're just a Southern town in that we want to win it all, but if we don't win it, all you're still our guys now. I'm not saying that makes for the best, the best mind state for winning it all. But it does make sure you don't flip over cars in the middle of the street when you don't. You know what I mean? DG: Also known as Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, probably. KM: You know what I'm saying? Shouts out to Philly, man, but you or when you win, you know what I'm sayin'? DG: You flip cars either way, I mean just if you want to flip cars. KM: Atlanta's just one of those places where it's just like, hey man, you know, we'll shake our hair, we'll have a beer about it, in our kitchen or some at the Buckhead Saloon, we'll talk about it and I'll see you next season. There's an easiness, but there's also a lot of transplants in Atlanta. So there's a lot of people that moved down from New York, a lot people that move from out West. So we got a lot of people that wear the wrong jersey to our games, but we have your kids. We have the cool musicians and the cool culture. Your kids are gonna grow up fans of the teams that we love because Ted Turner was right when he gave everybody the Braves for free. When he gave you TBS, when there was cable, spotty cable satellite and TBS went everywhere, I saw the Braes play. I saw the Cubs play. You know what I mean? I saw anybody Ted was running through it. We became America's team and much like the Dallas Cowboys became America team in the NFL, we became America's team because we were willing to accept anybody. We didn't care what jersey he had on, come see us play, come to Fulton County Stadium, later Turner Field. So I think that what ESPN looks for a lot of times is to polarize. My favorite rivalry in sports is Atlanta, New Orleans. [MUSIC] KM: Cause all we do is get drunk, smoke a little weed together, dance, eat great soul food. And whoever wins wins. DG: When the Saints and Falcons play each other? (Laughs) KM: Yeah, that's it! That's what the Falcons like. It's the best rivalry in the world because it's almost like visiting your other Black cousins who cook slightly different. You know what I'm saying? The food in Atlanta is great if you want fried fish and wings and stuff come to pay, can't seafood. The food is great. There's a two brothers, a two cousins, or brothers owend restaurant in New Orleans with the best gumbo. So when I'm in New Orleans, I'm cheering Falcons, currencies, cheering the Saints. And either way it goes, we get a great meal. You know what I mean? When he's in Atlanta, he's cheering, Saints I'm cheering Falcons, he's wearing gold, we're having a great meal. So I love that type of rivalry. I'm really not into, you know, busting each other's heads and stuff. So I think ESPN looks for the. I think a Northeastern and Midwestern rivalries and that type of fervor is what they use. So I think Atlanta's the South. We got the Masters. You can't act like that at the Masters, you can't even have your phone now. Everybody's just super cool, drinking whiskeys, drinking cigars and with their Rolexes on. DG: This sounds so good. A Steelers-Ravens game? Like, I mean, I literally am ready to kill Ravens fans. I mean that's, I hate saying that, but it's... KM: Now a 10 year old me, Brave fan that was getting wiped by the Mets. Oh man, oh man, and a 12 year old me when Boston was beating, I wanted to fight. DG: You were ready to fight. Okay. KM: I was ready to fight. DG: There are some exceptions to this Atlanta genteel situation. KM: Absolutely. Bird, oh man, I hated Larry Bird so many years, Jesus Christ. And I love him now, but oh man I hated Bird. But it's good to know that Bird hated everybody. DG: Yeah, I'll tell you that there's something about Atlanta, Michael. I feel like, you know, I came down on a reporting trip in 2009. I was traveling around the country during, uh, during president Obama's first a hundred days in office and came through Atlanta, ended up at the Stone Soup Kitchen, which I think is near Grant Park. It's gone now. I think it's, yeah. It's been redeveloped, but, I ended up meeting Jelani Cobb. Yeah. I mean, he's now, you know, Dean of the Columbia School of Journalism, writes for the New Yorker, but at that point he was teaching at Spelman and I like literally we talked for like two hours over the best pancakes I've ever tasted and it was just something about, I don't know, like a, just the spirit of diversity and kind of shared sense of place. And I just felt at home immediately. KM: Yeah, what I like about this city is I've never felt like a minority. And I don't just mean in terms of numbers, meaning when we talk about diversity all the time, sometimes we talk about people with glaring or glaring differences, all being forced to be the other room. We think of it that way. We think of it to minority majority school system. We think of DEI in terms of work, what we never think about is what if I just walk in a place where not everybody looks alike and everybody's just cool? And no matter your hair texture or amount of melanin in your skin, you got on the Braves, Hawks, or Falcons cap. And no matter who you're gonna vote for, you think Dale Murphy should be in the Hall of Fame, no matter, who wins the city council race. DG: You know, it's so interesting. We often, we talk on our show a lot about exploring sports as one of the last places in our society where we all gather collectively. KM: Yes. DG: I feel like the way you're describing Atlanta, it feels like your city embodies that maybe more than any other city that I've really come across. KM: Yeah, yeah, they used to say it's a city too busy to hate and there's, you know, but there's always some underlying provoker of something. There was some guy moved here years ago from New York and tried to get Buckhead, which is a fifth of the tax base here and usually pretty liberal white folks, to be honest, with lots of money. Tried to get them to secede out of the city. [MUSIC] DG: Okay, let's back up for just a minute. If you don't know what Killer Mike is talking about here, he's referring to the Buckhead City Movement. Five years ago, residents in the wealthy and mostly white neighborhood of Buckhead made an effort to secede from the rest of the mostly Black city of Atlanta. NEWSCASSTER: Buckhead residents want to break away from the city of Atlanta, citing a surge in crime. All new tonight, we're taking a deeper dive into that plan as a viable solution. DG: They argued they could better address issues like crime and improve municipal services as a separate city. But by the time this effort reached the Georgia legislature, it didn't have the support it needed from lawmakers and it collapsed. KM: And what I was most proud of in that moment is the people who lived around their places like Tuxedo Drive were like, "Get the hell out of here. What are you talking about?" They understood that they have a balance within the city and that they're respected and appreciated. And it was amazing to me to see, because you're taught stereotypically. One day everybody's going to turn against you it was going to use a great civil war, but Atlanta's like, no, it doesn't make sense to do. You know, and I've always liked that in my city. There was a not tolerance in terms of tolerating. There's a tolerance in terms of let me see where this goes before I'm too preemptive in judging. Let me see what this goes. Even you look at the players. When Deion Sanders first landed, I remember when Deion got off the plane, as kids, we looking at him. Deion, got on gold chains, he got on this— we're going crazy. [MUSIC] DG: In case this is a little before your time, Dion Sanders, he was a cornerback who joined the Atlanta Falcons as the fifth overall draft pick in 1989. He was nicknamed PrimeTime because he was dominant on the field and flashy off it. Seriously, this guy was cool. Dion was always dripping with heavy gold jewelry and ready to talk trash at the drop of a hat. REPORTER: It looks like you're wearing your signing bonus here. I mean, you know, we can see the nice PrimeTime logo already or what? DEION SANDERS: We got a sweatsuit started, jacket started, everything. We got it going on here. Everybody got on jewelry. Even the baby got a little something. We ready now. REPORTER: Even the baby has jewelry. KM: I remember Atlanta sports writers, some of them were not fond of that, but the city, meaning the people, the kids that I saw, when we were going to different malls and stuff, all of us loved this guy. And what we loved is when the guy would talk, he'd say, he didn't drink, he didn't smoke. You got to look good, you got to play good, play good and pay good. But he never told us to be bad, never told to be criminal, but he didn't give us the Hulk Hogan, "Take your vitamin C." He gave us something where he was a player in being a player. We loved it. When we had Jamal Anderson running here. Just a good guy you see in the community. So Atlanta's players, like I say, people talk about Chipper Jones like they grew up with him. Because literally you did. When you saw him in the streets, it was just a foreign into you. So I think that this city is different. I don't know if it's too busy to hate. Lord knows we have some hard days some days, but it's to busy to let the BS. It's too less to let. I think we get past the BS relatively quickly here. And I'm proud of us for that. I hope we keep doing it. I hope that we don't lose that as more people move to Atlanta. I hope they continue to practice the Atlanta way. DG: What did the media do you think not understand about Deion Sanders? Like, it sounds like the city embraced him, but you were saying that the media, was it like his flashiness or what? KM: Yeah, I mean, let's just be honest. Man it is scary for that type of confidence to land unapologetically. I don't care if you're talking about Ric Flair or Deion Sanders. Now, at that time in the world you complicate it with the fact that this kid is dark as a pecan has a mean s-curl looks like a Black superman. And this is another time where players were expected to shut up and play, go along, be, you know, it was, it was almost New York Yankees style. No, no beard, it was— and Deion didn't land like that. He landed branded. He landed with a Prime Time jacket. He branded with those EK shades with a— he landed like a rock star at a time in the NFL was never really allowed, you know, past a Joe Namath, they never really allow rock stars because if a player gets bigger than the game. You know, do you have as much control over the unions? You know what I mean? So I think Deion represented superstar them in a different way. I think that that was the beginning of the era where fans are following players, not just teams. DG: More about the star Atlanta athletes who Killer Mike calls friends… that’s coming up next, on Sports in America. MIDROLL DG: This is Sports in America, and we’re back with Grammy-winning rapper and diehard Atlanta sports fan Killer Mike. DG: Well, I wanna ask you about another star athlete in Atlanta, and that's Michael Vick, who you were close to? KM: Yeah, Mike's a good guy. I mean, I wouldn't talk to him every day, but we had a great relationship when he was in Atlanta. We have a solid relationship now. I like Mike a lot. I respect the heck out of him. Happy to see him up in Norfolk helping young men mature into adulthood, you know, while going through college. He's one of the guys I always cheer for. DG: Michael Vick. He is a quarterback who played for the Falcons, also the Eagles, the Jets and my Steelers. During his time in Atlanta, he and killer Mike, they got close. I mean, obviously a star quarterback, and we actually had, as a Pittsburgh Steelers fan, like I got to see one year of, of him, even as a backup. And there was a legendary game that he just took over and won for us against the Chargers. And I'll never forget, and that was late in his career. What advice did you give to him early on when, when he was, you know, in the NFL and, you know, really getting a lot of eyes on him in Atlanta and elsewhere? KM: I didn't have a lot, I don't try to big bro a lot of guys. I remember us standing outside when Buckhead was the club area in the district. We were just both standing out there together. I had cool conversations with him one time, Dante Culpepper, just different people that were just kind of met on a human level. And that was when I realized Mike was really just like a rural kid. He liked fishing, you know, stuff like that. He was more into being outside on a bunch of acres than he was either standing in front of the clubs, in front, you know, fancy cars and whatnot. And you know I just told him, you know, more than anything, the people love them and they're gonna embrace them. So get that, you know, and I tell you what I would tell any player in this city, man, don't hide from the public. Dominique Wilkins and Deion Sanders and Dale Murphy and Chipper and people like that have been so, even Matt Ryan, I remember even old school Steve Borkowski would be in Black summer camp. See what I mean? Like this city's players have been so ingrained in the fabric. That I was told them don't hide, you know, just embrace it. You know what I mean? And they're going to talk to you like they know you because they do, you know, and Mike did. Mike was, you know, I've heard more "Mike came to my school" stories than I heard "I seen Mike in Magic City" stories. You know, and I have no problem with a player being in both. You know I mean, but I've heard so many times about him just being places and being good to people. Him, and even though he didn't play for— Shaquille O'Neal. Shaquille O'Neal is amazing at just being a sports figure that moves to Atlanta, that gives kids hope, you know? DG: Mm-hmm. [MUSIC] BROADCASTER: Former Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick has signed a two-year contract with the Philadelphia Eagles. Vick was released from prison in May after serving 18 months for leading a dogfighting ring. DG: Well, I wonder, I mean, obviously, Michael Vick was, you know, ended up in the dogfighting scandal and served his prison time, came back, and, you know came back to the NFL. What is, I means, what does forgiveness look like in a story like that of Michael Vicks? And like, who decides, you now, whether someone is forgiven and can kind of get back on their feet? KM: I've forgiven Mike, I think Mike has forgiven Mike. I think to be very honest with you, most of the Atlanta community has forgiven Mike and I would, if I am an educator, I would simply say to people that there is a segment of this country where very rural values and habits exist. That may not necessarily be in tune with what should have been going on those years ago or even now, but they're still segment of this country that grows their own, I mean, that brews their own whiskey. They fight chickens, they slaughter their own hogs, and unfortunately they fight dogs. And I'm not saying that it was right because it was wrong. I'm not saying that he was justified because at a certain point, you get a certain amount of social responsibility. You get a bunch of money, you're the head of an organization. You have to mature past that. But I'm saying that we have to understand that everybody has a maturity to matriculate at the same time in the same way. So maybe ultimately the lesson is in how to usher many times these young men that are, if we're talking baseball coming out of the Caribbean, if we are talking football coming out of very rural areas in the deep South. And if you're coming out of other places, places where sports has been heralded here, other things that matter as much. Maybe it's just about teaching some cast of class that we can't do this anymore. We've risen to here. My first day of kindergarten, the first week, they served cornbread and collard greens. I grew up in the South. My grandparents were from Eatonton, Georgia, and Tuskegee. We didn't eat collard greens and cornbreads with a fork. How do we eat them? You got your hand, you got the bread, put it in the greens, you mashed it up and you ate it. Same way you would eat in West Africa, right? My teacher came, Ms. Murphy, and said, "Michael, I know this is how we do it at home, but we can't do that at school or do that anymore." She was the person that taught me that because my grandmother was my grandmother. She still ate and fed me like that. That was an education. And after that, I understood, and I just don't think that we always do that. And I think that that ultimately Mike has been an example for other young men. That there are certain things that get left to share behind the culture of where I'm from, I can't bring to where I am going. So I think Mike has been forgiven. I've certainly forgiven Mike. The city of Atlanta has forgiven Mike, the Fathom's organization seems to have forgiven Mike and I think ultimately anyone who has not forgiven Mike has to really do some self analysis and say why? Because all of us have done something unforgivable, to be very honest. All of us had done something that someone else would deem unforgivable. You know, for some people, that's as simple as eating a pork sandwich. You know what I mean? For other people, it's an abortion. For other people, its chicken or dog fighting things. But, you know, there are some things that I would say I would deem unforgivable. But I think that Mike is learning, growing from that. And I think that other young men and women learn from that. So ultimately, I'm happy that he's in a position now where he gets to steward young men and stir them around, help them think around some of the bad decisions they may make. DG: Some people have said that the why, the why he hasn't been fully forgiven by everyone is is because there's a racial double standard at play Do you agree with that? KM: I definitely understand that perspective. Yes. When you, when you look at sentencing in the United States, if you take a person that is Black or whites for the exact same crime, Blacks usually sentenced to longer years. And there's a systematic, view of African-Americans in particular in this country that, you know, a little extra time will teach them. We just, I mean, think about it, man, slavery is not illegal in this country if you're imprisoned. I do think that this system needs some tightening up. And I also think that we need to be steering more African-Americans into law. I think we need more kids going to law school. I didn't realize there wasn't an African-American, I don't think law school in the Southeast. I think, we got A&M, but we need one in, there's not one in Atlanta. We don't have a law school, in Atlanta, we got Emory law, of course, which is great, Georgia State law. But we need a, it'd be good, Morehouse School of Medicine here, it'd good to have a school of law coming out, Spelman, Clark, Morris Brown, you know. Think we need more of that, not less. DG: You know, I know you think about this kind of stuff a lot. I mean, you're not just a sports fan, you're not just a very well-known musician, but you think a lot about your community, you think lot about activism. What role do sports and also music play in your activism and wanting to change the world, and is one venue better, more effective than the other? KM: Sports and music are the two best ways to put children together to upset all the prejudices and vices we impress upon them. DG: Sports and music. KM: Watching music, man, I can't tell you how many times I've been in a concert venue or in a sporting event or on my way through an airport to one of those events and I'll see a white man and I see that white man with his child and his child will see me and I could tell they're from a predominantly white area if the child does this, "Whoa, \\\[EXPLETIVE\\\], this is a big guy, right, big guy or maybe, oh, big black guy." I always walk up to the dad and say, "Hey, what's up, I'm coming to speak to you cause I noticed when he saw me, he jumped behind you. And I wanted him to know his dad is cool." And either think his dad or beat me up. So he said, but I've wanted us to speak and talk. And it gives us reasons. to be in front of that kid, not saying, "You should be racist or bad," but seeing his father or mother interact with someone who doesn't look like him. So prejudice can't grow there. It can't. I just see my dad. You see, my dad was just good. So it's not just a guy I'm cheering for on the field. My dad interacts with people who look like the guy on the field. Oh, \\\[EXPLETIVE\\\] we're both cheering for the same guys on the fields. Whether we're cheering for the guy who looks like me or looks like you, we're cheering for the guys and they all have on the same uniform. Man, look, we were wearing the same jersey. Oh man. And that's what sports and music has the ability to do. It allows us to cheer for people and teams and the music brings love and themes out of us or you just rage out together. And afterwards, after you rage out together there's no room for civil unrest in the streets. You got it all out in the mosh pit. So I'm a believer in putting people together in rooms where they get to cheer for something. I'm down for us warring over world championships, and afterwards everybody get to go back home that I am a war in the street. So hopefully, you know, hopefully we'll have more of that than less DG: Yeah, no the music thing if you're so right I've been doing this project with a friend of mine who's a country musician in Nashville and he wrote an op-ed in the New York Times Saying that country music is the one thing that has the chance to bring people together and have conversations about how to end gun violence in the country because there are people who come together at his concerts from all walks of life. And I feel like you're you're touching on that. I think about sports like and I can't get— I can't stop thinking about that moment in the airport that you described because I feel like there's so many times where I'm sure for you, you have to overcome, like there is a certain pain in having someone react to you and be afraid of you that I can't relate to. KM: It just is though. I mean, you know what I mean? I don't mean, oh, it's right. I mean it's solvable. It's a 20 year solvable, but it's solvable. But if I only sulk about it, I don't get to solve it. When you look at a baseball team, you don't have to say diversity. I'm seeing it. You don't to say it on a football team. I'm seen it. I don't have to say it at a concert. I'm seeing it. That's what our potential is through communal celebration or rejoicing. And we should try to take those experiences past those places. You know, if you want to have a great day in the office, man, play some old school music. I don t care if people don't even know it. If it's good, groovy music, I don't t care if you're playing Sinatra or Nat King Cole. I don't care if you're playing Willie Nelson or Kris Kristofferson\\\`. If you get a good groove going on a record, man, your whole office is going to buzz different. And someone's going to say, what's that? Someone's gonna say my dad used to play that. And I think that we have that opportunity and I don't think we take enough advantage of it. We should be finding more thing.— James Baldwin challenged us as Americans to communicate more, to try to understand what we are more. Because, you know, there's not going to be a mass exodus. We're not going back to wherever we have come from, but we have an opportunity in this republic to be like pieces of fabric. And music and sports, and the people who are ambassadors in music and sport, kind of hold that fabric together. And I'm a believer in that. I love the fact that you can take kids out of this country that swing a bat or a ball, you can kids who have harmony, melody, you can put them together and they can give you a whole new interpretation of what it was you grew up with. And that's what music does, it brings us together. That's what sports does. It brings us together and allows us to have safe combat and rivalry and not, you know, all the boys make it home hopefully. You know what I mean? What I mean by that is all soldiers don't, you now. So I would like to see less war, more championships. I would to see more of us together, cheering for or against, but doing it in unison in a way that gets us back home safely, you. And the music be the soundtrack to it. DG: I love that. Let me finish by asking you this. I mean, like when people were thinking about going to their next game, whether it's, you know, to go see an NBA playoff game or going to, going to the ballpark. We want to find this balance. We don't want to tell people they should all be thinking about like, you know how to be a better citizen and improve our society. When you go, sometimes you just want to go like hang out with your friend or your parent, but like how should, how should a sports fan at least be open to the kind of magic happening that you're talking about? [MUSIC] KM: Man, so this is the cool thing, this is a cool thing. First of all, you can go with your friend. You can go to your friend who looks like you or your friend doesn't look like you, but go with somebody who really loves the game, right? Once at the game communicate with someone you didn't come with. When I sit on a plane, I was taught in third grade. I was taught when you sit down, you introduce yourself to the person on the plane. "Hey, I'm Michael, I am flying with you today. I know you must have money because you're riding first class." So we usually get a laugh out of it and it's like, hey, and then they'll see people stop and talk and say, well, I'm Killer, Mike, but I was always talking to introduce myself. When I go to games, and I usually don't sit on the floor. I'm usually sit right around the owners with the Hawks. I'm sitting around the wrestlers usually, I'm in front or next to or behind them. I always introduce myself to the people around, "Hey, man, I'm Killer Mike." "I know who you are, it's good to see—." But I want people to know that I'm open to be engaged. We're gonna cheer together, we're gonna laugh together, we're going to cry together. We're going have this two hour experience or three if we watch baseball together. So I don't want you to feel like you bumping me is a problem or your purse sitting here. I'm going to try to do everything I can to make sure you know you have a neighbor in me. And I think that's ultimately, even if it's a rivalry, you're my neighbor in this rivalry. We just want to know who has the best yard. So who has to newest lawnmower? I don't hate the Knicks as much as I used to. DG: (Laughs) KM: But all my New York buddies, man, you know, I told, you know, don't come around me with your jerseys for the rest of the summer. And, you know, but it provides a camaraderie, and I think we need to be open to that. I have met so many great people that are now I'm affiliated with because we've cheered for or against the same team or liked, or they hated a guy I hated, it gave us a point of argument. But there's there's places for units to connect. And if we stay open to connecting they'll reveal themselves to us. DG: Steelers are opening against the Falcons. I wish we could sit together at the stadium. Maybe we can make that happen. That's gonna be, but you're totally right, Killer Mike. That's what sports can be. And thank you so much. I enjoyed this conversation so, so much and yeah, really meaningful and I really appreciate it. KM: As did I. Thank you, and we'll talk more, not less. When you hear about Killer Mike's show coming through your town, let me know. I got your free tickets. [THEME SONG] DG: Next time on Sports in America, meet the guy who somehow turned sports media into equal part newsroom, comedy club, and family dinner. DAN LeBETARD: Can I interest you in some fun over here, some laughs, some stuff that isn't quite so serious? DG: Dan LeBatard is a sports writer, radio host, and a veteran of ESPN. He has spent decades proving that the best sports stories usually aren't about sports at all. We'll talk about laughter, loss, and why curiosity, not hot takes, has always been his superpower. DL: Sports does weird things to people. It just, it's just an insane cauldron in the emotions business. I think more people should be having fun within that. I am grateful that more people are not because somehow we stand out. DG: This is Sports in America, I'm your host, David Greene. Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa. Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our theme music is composed by Emma Munger. Our talent booker is Britt Kahn. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling. Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews we're originally created by Religion of Sports with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find Sports in America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, the iHeartRadio app, wherever you get your podcasts. And we also wanna hear from you. How about you drop us a line? You can write us at sportsinamerica@whyy.org. That's sportsinamerica@whyy.org. Thanks, everyone. And we will see you next time for Sports in America.