Latest / UK Column Radio / From Zionist to Anti-Zionist: Memories, Dreams, and Visions of Peace

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From Zionist to Anti-Zionist: Memories, Dreams, and Visions of Peace · UK Column Radio

• 0:07
  Hello to all those wonderful UK column viewers and listeners
• 0:10
  wherever you are in the world. I am very pleased to have a lady
• 0:16
  join me today who is a Jewish and she's kindly agreed to talk
• 0:21
  to me about what it is to be Jewish, tell me a little bit
• 0:25
  about her life and also for us to have a.
• 0:28
  A discussion so that I can learn because I, as I said in, as I
• 0:34
  said in the little bit of discussion off camera, I've gone
• 0:39
  through quite a quite an extensive life now where I've
• 0:44
  obviously come into contact with Jewish people, but this hasn't
• 0:47
  been anything that's been particularly significant.
• 0:50
  I haven't had friends who specifically identified
• 0:54
  themselves as being Jewish. I can believe that I've come
• 0:59
  into contact with and indeed maybe had some friends who might
• 1:02
  be Jewish or connections with Israel, but it hasn't been
• 1:05
  something that's been. Hasn't been something that's
• 1:09
  openly featured in my life. So I'm I'm really here to learn
• 1:13
  and I think we're going to have a very interesting discussion.
• 1:16
  Lynn, thank you very much for joining me.
• 1:18
  It's a privilege. Oh, you're very welcome.
• 1:21
  Can we can we start at the beginning?
• 1:24
  So you, you were born in Israel. I'm not going to, I'm not going
• 1:29
  to ask you when you were born, but you're born in Israel.
• 1:34
  What, what can you tell us about that and memories that you have?
• 1:38
  Of of being a child, young child growing up in Israel.
• 1:43
  Well. Actually, I was a child growing
• 1:45
  up in Israel, but I was, I was born in, in England.
• 1:49
  I, I guess it, it's a bit confusing because I've, I've
• 1:54
  lived all over the place and, you know, shortly after I was
• 2:00
  born, I, I, I moved, you know, to a different country and then
• 2:05
  to Israel and then and so on and so forth.
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  So, but I did live in Israel as a child, yes.
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  So what can I tell you about that?
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  Well, first of all, at that point is Judaism, first of all,
• 2:22
  I, I don't even know what, what it means to be Jewish.
• 2:26
  And I think that it's it at this point, it's so confused and so
• 2:33
  confusing that I, I, I really don't, don't know what to or how
• 2:38
  to describe that. But at that point.
• 2:41
  It was very. Confused with Zionism, so
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  especially, you know, there was secular Zionists and, and so
• 2:51
  Judaism was confused with some kind of connection to Israel.
• 2:58
  And so that was my understanding as a child.
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  It, it seemed to me to be very first of all, having grown up
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  with this idea of having been persecuted, you know, throughout
• 3:15
  the ages for no reason and so on and so forth.
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  And, and being a descendant of, you know, I'm not trying to play
• 3:23
  the Holocaust card, but but it, it's there as a child, I knew
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  that, you know, members of my family had been murdered and
• 3:31
  why? Because we were Jewish.
• 3:34
  So, so that provides an impetus for them looking for a safe
• 3:39
  place for a young child. And, and so, so Israel seems to,
• 3:45
  to be that safe place. Of course, now we know it's not.
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  It's the most dangerous place. How old were you when you went
• 3:54
  from England? So you were born into a Jewish
• 3:57
  family and and then you went to Israel as a child.
• 4:01
  How old were you when you went to Israel then?
• 4:06
  I must have been about 5 or so 445.
• 4:13
  OK. And how and how long did you
• 4:14
  stay in Israel for? Well, well, we were back and
• 4:19
  forth. I don't remember I let's let's
• 4:23
  say a year, that time when we were considering moving there
• 4:29
  permanently. But then we were back and forth
• 4:32
  after that. Yeah.
• 4:35
  There was this Zionist idea of a homeland, of a place where we
• 4:41
  would be safe from persecution. This is this is the myth that we
• 4:48
  bought into. I mean, what what I think now is
• 4:53
  is that that we were we were duped, you know, in many ways.
• 4:59
  And we can see that playing out now.
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  But at that point that was, that was what.
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  And also there were, there were various ideals involved of like,
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  I mean, for instance, later, No, I'm jumping now to later when I,
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  I joined the Kibblitz movement and, and worked on the land.
• 5:23
  And there's this I, there are these ideals and I don't really,
• 5:31
  I haven't really worked out to myself.
• 5:33
  You know, I think that some of those idea, the ideals are
• 5:38
  wonderful, but in practice it didn't work out that way at all,
• 5:43
  as we can see. But, but my parents, my, my
• 5:47
  mother didn't really care one way or the other.
• 5:51
  But my my father was strongly Zionist.
• 5:56
  All right, OK. And I have heard a few stories
• 6:01
  about people who worked on a kibbutz and some of the ones
• 6:08
  that I remember, they clearly enjoyed themselves at the time
• 6:12
  from the point of view that they were young and they were working
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  with other young people. And there was very good rapport
• 6:18
  amongst the team on the on the kibbutz.
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  What, what sort of experience did you have?
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  I mean, it was obviously hard work.
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  I think a lot of people thought they were going to go and and it
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  was going to be a complete summer holiday, but actually
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  they did have to work. How?
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  How did you find being on a kibbutz?
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  Well, I loved it, you know, I loved it.
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  I I was young and I got up at dawn or just before dawn and and
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  went and worked in the fields until the sun.
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  Got so hot. That it wasn't possible to be
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  outside anymore. At which time we we went inside
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  and we did some packing and other things that we could do
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  inside. And then at night there were
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  bonfires and singing and it was a wonderful feeling.
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  I would say it's almost tribal. It was at that point.
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  And actually maybe it's become even more tribal now.
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  I don't know, but there's this feeling of belonging and I think
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  most, most children and young people are looking for a sense
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  of identity and belonging. And sometimes they look in in
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  the wrong places. So, you know, later on they
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  find, well, that wasn't exactly what I was looking for.
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  But at that point, there was this sense of, you know, this
• 7:48
  myth of building the land, building the but it wasn't our
• 7:52
  land to build. That's what I found out later.
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  Was, was the kibbutz movement, was that actually a grassroots
• 8:07
  movement? Or do you, do you, Or was the
• 8:09
  idea of, of bringing young people to work on on the
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  kibbutz? Was it an idea that was actually
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  designed to try and help cement some feeling that you were as
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  Jewish men and women of boys and girls, teenagers, that you you
• 8:30
  had roots with the land? Was it, was it a genuine thing
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  or do you think there was a little bit of sort of policy
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  behind it? Oh, definitely policy.
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  I, I'm trying to remember, you know, that that there was this
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  idea of among Zionists, the the progenitors of Zionism, that
• 8:56
  that the Jews had had brought on their own annihilation because
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  they were so weak, because they were.
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  So, you know, they were involved with book laying and so on and
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  so forth. And so so that was going to be
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  pushed away. And now there was this, this
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  quote, new Jew who was going to be tough and, you know, work the
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  land and, and, and it was going to be a militarised state and so
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  on. So it was really almost an, I
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  would say an anti-Semitic. Well, I don't like that word,
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  all right. But it was, it was certainly
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  pushing away the old idea of the Jews and trying to build a
• 9:37
  completely different version of of Judaism, which was really
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  Zionism and which was. Opposed to the idea of Jews as
• 9:47
  being a religious group involved with.
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  Book learning and ethics and so on.
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  That was it. It.
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  It was supplanting that. And, and did did you those
• 10:03
  observations what what you've just said to me did, did, did
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  you pick up those feelings at the time or the statements
• 10:11
  you've just made with a more reflection after you looked back
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  on what, what it, what you'd experienced in your time on the
• 10:18
  kibbutz? No, I didn't pick up those
• 10:21
  feelings at the time, but I do remember some feelings of unease
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  when I was like meeting IDF soldiers coming back from the
• 10:33
  front and this this feeling of I was, there was a feeling of
• 10:40
  unease and and there was some some something off and I didn't
• 10:47
  know what it was. It was only later that I talked
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  to to people from other countries and cultures and I
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  began slowly working out what the issue was and actually
• 11:02
  finding out that that these people who I thought was so
• 11:05
  heroic might not have been. And I was teasing a little bit
• 11:09
  earlier about time scales and things.
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  So when you talk about the front were are we talking about around
• 11:17
  601967 that time or or earlier? I was there in 1967, yeah.
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  Right, right. So obviously a critical time
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  with the with the war as it unfolded.
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  Yeah. And, and so were you there while
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  the fighting or was you presumably you, you were, if you
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  were talking about soldiers coming back from the front, the
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  fighting was actually happening while you were there on the
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  kibbutz. No, I I went out immediately
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  after the Israel had had won that.
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  Yeah. That.
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  Short shot war? Yes.
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  Yes. And so the, the soldiers were
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  coming back triumphant, you know, and what I didn't know was
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  that the about the other side of things and what they'd actually
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  done. And when I found that out, it,
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  it was devastating. But that didn't happen for
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  years. OK, So what?
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  What makes do you just finish your time on the kibbutz and
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  therefore it's time to come back to England?
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  Or was it, was it, was it you feeling that you wanted to come
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  back? What?
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  What proved? What made you come back from
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  Israel? Well, I, I was involved with
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  someone who I later married, who was, you know, living in England
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  and whether I would have come back had that not be the case, I
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  don't know. And when you, when you come back
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  to England, you, well, you settled down, you get, you get
• 12:59
  married. And are you living a very
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  involved Jewish life? How?
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  How? Did.
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  You and how did your faith come into it?
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  I mean, what, what was life like as a Jewish person?
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  Was it I, I would be saying to somebody Christian, maybe you
• 13:19
  know where you were churchgoer and they might say, yes, we were
• 13:21
  heavily involved with the church.
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  Was was this synagogue a central part of of your life back in
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  England or or not? Well, first of all, I didn't
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  stay very long in England and I was off to different countries
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  in the Middle East and then also, you know, to, to America.
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  So I, I, I wasn't in England for, for that long.
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  But, but no, the synagogue was more of a community space.
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  It wasn't really, I was never religious in the sense of, you
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  know, I wasn't sure about the whole thing and I, I hadn't
• 13:58
  really looked into it. But no, the idea of, of, of, of
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  I, I think I really hadn't worked it out to myself.
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  I only looked into it more as as time went by.
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  This this is. Really interesting thing for me
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  and I think other people because a lot lot, I, I think that a lot
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  of people outside of the Jewish community look in and, and, and
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  there's an assumption made that to be Jewish is automatically to
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  be deeply embedded inside the the Jewish faith.
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  And you're saying that wasn't the case for you and that was
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  something you? Were knowing.
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  So this is very, you know, this is a very key point and it, it's
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  the start of the little journey into the fact that to to me
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  talking, speaking as being a non Jew, It's it's there are so many
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  different facets. It appears to what being a Jew
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  is it, it isn't what just one thing because it, it seems to me
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  that that you've you all feel very different things about
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  yourself. And then that might be based on
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  something that which is faith-based, or it might be
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  something that's based on political things, or it might be
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  just the thing that you've been born in Israel and therefore
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  that cements your idea of, of being Jewish.
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  For me, this is, this is really fascinating and it's one of the
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  reasons that I've, I've been very, very keen to get an
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  interview. I hope there's going to be a
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  series of them talking to Jewish people about what it means to be
• 15:42
  Jewish. And how they how they see the
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  world. So it's fascinating that you've
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  stepped into this little arena if if you, if you travelled then
• 15:53
  in the Middle Middle East, well, I don't know whether you can say
• 15:59
  where you went, but you're travelling as as a Jewish
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  person. Did that cause any problems at
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  the time, particularly if it was after the Six Day Six Day War?
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  No, I well, first of all, I didn't.
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  I didn't travel to the countries where it would have been
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  dangerous to travel. But I.
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  Where I did. Travel.
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  There was no problem at all. I mean, first of all, I, I don't
• 16:27
  think anyone actually, maybe at the airport, people would have
• 16:31
  checked out our passports and found that it's, it said we were
• 16:35
  Jewish, but that once we were in the country, you know, I was
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  often stopped and mistaken for, for, I don't know someone who
• 16:44
  was from that part of the area. So I don't, I don't think that
• 16:50
  it was a learning experience. There was a in that in those
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  cultures, there's a hospitality and warmth and sense of family
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  that I think that we in the in the West may have lost to a
• 17:06
  great extent and but but at that point they still had that.
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  I don't know whether that's the case anymore, but but no, it
• 17:19
  never really came up. I, I was very interested in, in
• 17:23
  the way that they poured and, you know, learning about a
• 17:27
  different culture. Right.
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  And but you are talking about Middle Eastern countries, are
• 17:32
  you, when you're talking about travelling in the area?
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  Yeah, that's fascinating. I would totally agree with you.
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  I, I think that it's, it's very apparent that many of those
• 17:43
  Middle Eastern cultures have absolutely kept on to family
• 17:48
  life and what that means that even, you know, quite extensive
• 17:53
  families, that is regarded as a, a vital part to being alive and,
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  and being, and here in here in the West, in my lifetime, I've,
• 18:05
  I've seen extraordinary changes with how the family is viewed
• 18:09
  and how the family is treated. And we've seen people, well,
• 18:14
  we're seeing families broken apart.
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  I think it's what we're seeing in the West.
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  So I, I regard it as a very good thing when you see cultures
• 18:22
  where they're still keeping the family strong.
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  So that's interesting. What struck me also, I mean,
• 18:27
  there, there were, there were, there was definitely a secular
• 18:31
  culture, but there were, there were also people of very strong
• 18:34
  faith and who shared that faith. And, and I, I was just very
• 18:41
  interested in in how they saw the world and they were
• 18:47
  fascinated with with me and with us because some of them had
• 18:50
  never met any anyone. Like us, so.
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  I mean, there was some incredible encounters.
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  You know, I'm sure things have changed since then.
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  But yeah, so it's very interesting, also very scary
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  because of the poverty in some of these places, you know, where
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  people, people are pushed into situations which are absolutely
• 19:16
  horrible because of of the poverty.
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  I've only ever seen real poverty on one occasion and that was in
• 19:24
  my Navy time when we had a visit to Somalia.
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  And I remember in a town square, people sitting with tiny plates
• 19:38
  covered with maybe 3 or 4 green beans or some peas.
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  And they were, they were trying to sell these vegetables in
• 19:46
  order to get some money to buy other, you know, other things.
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  And of course they were all grossly underfed, really very
• 20:00
  difficult to look at some of them and the children
• 20:02
  particularly difficult to look at.
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  And that that was actually a visit where I learnt a lot
• 20:08
  because at the time the West was shipping in a lot of grain.
• 20:14
  I'm talking very early 80s. And outside the harbour in
• 20:19
  Mogadishu there were a lot of grain ships anchored and this
• 20:24
  grain was supposedly coming in to deal with poverty in Somalia.
• 20:30
  But what was happening was that corrupt politicians were simply
• 20:34
  re backing the the grain and it was being exported and they were
• 20:40
  raking in the profits. So they were doing this while
• 20:44
  their own people starved, and I've never forgotten that visit.
• 20:48
  Well, I remember the some of the children were intentionally
• 20:55
  crippled so they would be, you know, standing in the street
• 20:59
  begging for anything they could get.
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  And they were crippled. The hands were crippled or the,
• 21:08
  the like one of their legs were chopped off or something like
• 21:11
  that. And I, I mean, it was just
• 21:15
  horrible. It was, it was certainly
• 21:17
  horrible. And I, I was told, I don't know
• 21:20
  whether it was the case that their, their parents have done
• 21:23
  this in order for them to survive.
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  So, you know, I'd never come across that in, in the quotes
• 21:32
  developed world. So there was a lot.
• 21:35
  It was a learning experience. When was it that you made the
• 21:39
  big move from England to America?
• 21:43
  Just after, when I was very, very young, I spent several
• 21:49
  years in America and then came back and then I went back in the
• 21:53
  70s. OK, so all right, so, so you,
• 21:57
  you you'd had experience in England and Israel and come back
• 22:02
  to been back and forth and seen some other Middle Eastern
• 22:06
  countries. So let let's say when when you
• 22:10
  make the the final big move to America, that was that was in
• 22:14
  the 1970s, was it? That was in the 70's.
• 22:18
  The the time when I really made the big move was late 70s.
• 22:24
  Correct me if if I'm wrong on this, but but one of the things
• 22:28
  I think you were saying to me earlier was that is that you
• 22:32
  found the atmosphere in America very different.
• 22:35
  Being a being a Jew and going to America you found.
• 22:39
  That. A refreshing experience because
• 22:42
  you you could be among some quite big Jewish communities and
• 22:46
  nobody wants the expression battered an eyelid.
• 22:50
  You were just one of any other person that was there.
• 22:54
  Is that? Is that true?
• 22:56
  I wasn't part of the Jewish community.
• 22:59
  I just found that that I didn't have to be as careful that the
• 23:04
  whole culture that even the words, you know, that it was, it
• 23:08
  was simply much more part of the fabric of American life than it
• 23:14
  was of of British life at that point.
• 23:18
  And I was just amazed. And no, I wasn't part of the
• 23:22
  Jewish community, but, but there, I think there is a very
• 23:26
  large Jewish community there. And maybe that, you know, that
• 23:30
  was one of the reasons that these phrases and this culture
• 23:35
  became in some way integrated into American culture in a way
• 23:40
  that it wasn't in in Britain. And and so you, you stay in
• 23:45
  America and, and effectively you have what the bulk of your life
• 23:49
  there as families, as mother professional career that's
• 23:56
  that's based in America. Sometime in England, I'm coming
• 24:01
  back. But but.
• 24:02
  But based in America, Yeah. Yeah.
• 24:05
  So looking back, did you enjoy it?
• 24:09
  Let's do some nice things. How?
• 24:11
  How did you find America? Well, yes, I did enjoy it.
• 24:15
  It was very exciting. You know, I was at the, at that
• 24:19
  point, at the, the, the epicenter.
• 24:23
  Of. Of what was really going on in,
• 24:27
  in my field. And I mean, it was very
• 24:30
  exciting. It was very, very tough
• 24:32
  environment, but, but I, I loved it and I was very lucky, you
• 24:39
  know, to, to have met some absolutely outstanding people.
• 24:45
  And so I had a great time. Yeah, that, that's brilliant.
• 24:50
  I've, I've had numerous visits to America and I've always
• 24:53
  enjoyed them with, with some experience of the East and West
• 25:00
  Coast. And I'll say out of my visits,
• 25:03
  probably it was Arizona that I I was very taken with.
• 25:08
  That's the first time I've ever let loose near desert areas, but
• 25:12
  I found that really spectacular. Now, I've never been to Arizona,
• 25:15
  but but I did live on the West Coast too, and that's very
• 25:19
  different. I mean, this was a time when
• 25:23
  when San Francisco was a, a beautiful place.
• 25:27
  I, I gather it's not anymore, but but that's a different,
• 25:34
  that's completely different from the, the East Coast.
• 25:38
  And of course, you know, they're, they're the fly over
• 25:41
  zones, You know, people, people on the coast think, well,
• 25:47
  they're just places to fly over. But actually, if one gets the
• 25:52
  chance to go there, that's very interesting.
• 25:55
  You know, that's a, that's a different culture too.
• 25:58
  So it's not I I don't think that America is just one homogeneous
• 26:03
  society at all, any more than than Britain is.
• 26:08
  When you're living in America, well, let's say you you're
• 26:11
  established in America. When you were in that
• 26:16
  environment, were you following politics concerning Israel?
• 26:24
  When events were happening around Israel, was that was that
• 26:28
  an important thing for you or was your life totally immersed
• 26:31
  in in being there in American and enjoying and experiencing
• 26:36
  American life? I didn't really follow what was
• 26:39
  going on in Israel. I've been, I was very immersed
• 26:46
  in, in my career and in what was going on in America.
• 26:52
  I, I really at that point didn't question anything.
• 26:57
  And, and, you know, I feel a certain amount of guilt about
• 27:00
  that at this point. Well, I think we can all look
• 27:04
  back over our lives and there were things that we we should
• 27:07
  have done at, at a particular time and we didn't do.
• 27:10
  That's that's part of the advantage of getting more mature
• 27:15
  and looking back, you're, you're allowed to say, I probably
• 27:19
  didn't get that right. This is, this is really, this is
• 27:22
  a question which I, I want to ask as many people as I can
• 27:26
  really, is you're there in America?
• 27:31
  Are you American or are you Jewish or are you English?
• 27:35
  And I, I say it like that because it, it's just, I've only
• 27:41
  started to learn about this business and a while back I.
• 27:45
  I listened to a really interesting discussion between
• 27:48
  two rabbis who were talking about dual nationality.
• 27:53
  And actually they were quite, they were quite strong on the
• 27:56
  fact that for them one, one man was American born.
• 28:01
  So, so he, he said, I am an American and I, that's how I
• 28:07
  think. First I am an American, even
• 28:10
  though he was a rabbi and then the other rabbi was actually
• 28:14
  born in England, but he, he, his wife was American and he was
• 28:18
  about to get residential status in America.
• 28:23
  But these two rabbis were talking about, about what, why
• 28:27
  they felt it was important that as Jewish people, you, you, you
• 28:33
  had to be one side of the line or the other.
• 28:35
  And their view was that they, they were Americans and that's,
• 28:40
  that's where their loyalty lay. But I, I've, I just find this is
• 28:46
  a very interesting thing. If you're born in one country,
• 28:49
  even if you're born in Italy and then you live in UK for an
• 28:54
  extended period, you have the family and everything else.
• 28:58
  Do you? Do you, Do you think as as a
• 29:01
  fact that you're British, you live in what a funny land we
• 29:06
  are, You're British, you live in UK or you're English, or do you
• 29:09
  still think you're Italian even though you've lived here for 40
• 29:13
  years? How did you regard yourself?
• 29:15
  Which came? Did one thing come before or the
• 29:19
  other, or was it something you didn't think about?
• 29:24
  No, I did. Think about it.
• 29:26
  And I decided, well, first of all, I was very proud of being
• 29:31
  British, being English. And although I could have become
• 29:38
  an American citizen, of course, I, I didn't do so.
• 29:45
  And yeah, there are dual citizens, but I just felt
• 29:51
  British, you know, I'd had had a British upbringing and, and gone
• 29:56
  to British schools and so on. And I, I was very proud of, of
• 30:02
  MyHeritage As for, As for, you know, the well, I think it was
• 30:09
  an accident partly that I, I, I didn't end up in, in Israel
• 30:16
  because I could have easily done so.
• 30:19
  And so that that was an accident.
• 30:22
  But I was quite honestly, I was confused about, you know, where
• 30:29
  does my loyalty lie? If this is, if this is our
• 30:32
  homeland, then then why are we living in England?
• 30:36
  And if we moved? Or.
• 30:38
  Well, we were considering moving permanently to to Israel.
• 30:43
  Then why did we come back? And I was just confused.
• 30:49
  But but I think I just had a very strong identity as as a
• 30:53
  British person and wherever I went.
• 30:58
  And at that point I wasn't. And things have changed since
• 31:02
  then. But at that point, I didn't
• 31:06
  quite call into question many political aspects of, of being
• 31:14
  part of of a dying empire. Let's put it like that.
• 31:20
  I didn't think like that. Yeah.
• 31:22
  I was very naive. Thank you.
• 31:26
  Thank you for telling me that. Because as I say, I do, I do
• 31:29
  find this aspect very, very interesting.
• 31:33
  And yeah, that particular discussion with the rabbis I, I
• 31:38
  listened to intently all the way through as they discussed
• 31:42
  various points. And that was maybe one of one of
• 31:46
  the deeper YouTube videos which started my learning process on,
• 31:52
  on matters to do what it is to be Jewish.
• 31:55
  So eventually you, you, you decide that you're going to come
• 31:59
  back to England. And that was fairly recently, if
• 32:03
  I remember correctly. And you, you decide to live in a
• 32:08
  big city. You said to me that it was a bit
• 32:14
  of a shock coming back to UK. Why was?
• 32:16
  Why was that? Because everything has changed.
• 32:20
  Well, I don't live in a big city and I miss being in a big city
• 32:24
  in many ways. But I, I decided not to do that.
• 32:28
  But it was a shock because, you know, we had I, I remember a
• 32:34
  vibrant culture where we had debates.
• 32:38
  We we were able to talk about. Different opinions and without
• 32:44
  coming to blows over it, it wasn't a question of, you know,
• 32:47
  we could hurt other people's feelings and regularly did
• 32:52
  because we had different views on things.
• 32:55
  And, and now everything has changed and, and I feel we're
• 33:03
  losing this great tradition of ours.
• 33:10
  And it's, it's, it's very sad. You know, it's engineered, but
• 33:14
  it's, it's very sad. How?
• 33:17
  How long were you away for in America?
• 33:21
  How many years did you live there then, roughly?
• 33:24
  Oh my goodness. Oh, I don't know.
• 33:26
  You know, decades. Yeah, So I'm asking that just to
• 33:30
  get get an idea of when you say UK has changed, you know, over
• 33:35
  what period. But essentially you're talking
• 33:38
  about UK changing over my lifetime, my adult lifetime.
• 33:43
  And I totally agree with you. I think the country is
• 33:46
  unrecognizable in 2025 as to what it was back in the
• 33:52
  certainly if I say back in the 1970s, or I could go back as a
• 33:57
  young boy before that, the change is incredible and it's
• 34:03
  not for the better in the way people relate to each other.
• 34:09
  No, absolutely. And I began to see it, say, in
• 34:14
  the 90s, I wasn't living here, but I began to see it in the
• 34:19
  80s, nineties. But then I, you know, I wasn't
• 34:25
  here. And then coming back, it's seems
• 34:29
  like it's a different country. Yeah.
• 34:32
  The other thing that you mentioned to me was that you
• 34:38
  felt oil. I will say you felt a bit of
• 34:42
  unease coming back and being Jewish.
• 34:47
  Is, is that correct? When you came back to UK, you
• 34:51
  were worried about what was happening in America.
• 34:53
  You leave America and you come to England and then and then you
• 34:58
  sense you're, you're feeling a bit uneasy here maybe.
• 35:02
  More than you expected to. So what?
• 35:05
  What was that unease all about? Well, I think there's a lot of
• 35:11
  conversation right now and it, it started, I don't know when it
• 35:16
  started, but I became aware of it about, you know, what are the
• 35:21
  Jews instigators of all that we, you know, do they believe that
• 35:25
  they're chosen? And are they instigators of, of,
• 35:28
  of all, all that we're going through and, you know, all our,
• 35:33
  all our problems? Is it the Jews fault?
• 35:37
  And so, so there's that undercurrent, even if people
• 35:42
  don't say it, not everyone obviously, but, but there's an
• 35:46
  undercurrent of that people are looking around and trying to
• 35:49
  figure out what's going on. And, and there's no question,
• 35:54
  but there are not me, but there are some very wealthy Jews who
• 35:59
  who have an agenda. So I found myself even recently,
• 36:03
  you know, saying, well, actually maybe.
• 36:09
  I may be Jewish, I'm not even sure about that, but let's say I
• 36:12
  am. But I don't think we're the
• 36:17
  chosen people, you know? I don't.
• 36:20
  Think we're better than anyone else.
• 36:23
  And it was the relative of mine who, who isn't Jewish who said
• 36:29
  to me, I'm so glad you said that.
• 36:32
  You know, thank goodness you said that because it was like,
• 36:36
  you know, if I hadn't said that, she might not have wanted
• 36:38
  anything to do with me. The other thing which you have
• 36:42
  said to me and indeed a couple of other people who are Jewish,
• 36:46
  you are kind enough to talk to me, is that it's not only a
• 36:51
  feeling of little bit of fear about how people are reacting
• 36:57
  around you because you're Jewish.
• 36:59
  It's also a little bit of fear of criticizing the state of
• 37:03
  Israel itself. And this, this is something
• 37:07
  which again, has been something which I've had to learn from a
• 37:12
  position of not knowing very much about Israel as a country
• 37:16
  at all. The idea that division inside
• 37:22
  the country was so significant that some people have been badly
• 37:26
  treated by the government, but also that they are very nervous
• 37:30
  of even criticizing the government.
• 37:33
  And perhaps I'll just add a little extra statement on that.
• 37:36
  How interesting that here we are in UK in 2025 where people are
• 37:41
  being certainly brought before the court for saying nasty
• 37:45
  things about the government. So there's certain things that
• 37:49
  are happening on a, on a level playing field.
• 37:53
  But for you as, as a, you know, speaking to me as somebody with
• 37:59
  the experience of Israel, I, I find this, the fact that people
• 38:04
  in the Jewish community are frightened of their own
• 38:07
  government. I I find this a very interesting
• 38:10
  point. Well, I, I'm not physically
• 38:14
  trying to criticise this film, in fact I do it all the time.
• 38:20
  But I I think that it's very difficult to remain part of.
• 38:27
  To the Jewish community. And criticise Israel, although
• 38:31
  people are starting to to do that more now.
• 38:35
  But but no, I mean, but with within Israel, it used to be
• 38:41
  that, that, you know, everyone was criticising Israeli policies
• 38:46
  and arguing about everything on earth.
• 38:48
  It was a very free, well, free society for people who are
• 38:52
  Jewish and not for the others. But I think that's completely
• 38:58
  changed now. And now, you know, people who
• 39:01
  speak out are more isolated than they used to be.
• 39:04
  There's no question. But I'm not, I don't consider
• 39:09
  Israel has anything to do with being Jewish.
• 39:12
  For for me, it doesn't. And you know, you can talk to
• 39:18
  quite a few rabbis who would say, you know, Judaism is a
• 39:21
  religion. It, it, it doesn't, it doesn't
• 39:26
  have to do with the country and even the, the name Israel or
• 39:31
  Jerusalem, they are symbolic, you know, they, they, they're
• 39:35
  not necessarily located in a particular piece of land that is
• 39:41
  in the Middle East. You know, that's, that may be
• 39:45
  convenient in some ways, but it's not necessarily what what I
• 39:50
  mean when we say Israel or Jerusalem, you know, that's,
• 39:56
  that's a symbolic, allegorical spiritual journey and it's not
• 40:03
  to do with the material place for me.
• 40:07
  This is probably an impossible question, but you you you will
• 40:11
  have a better idea than I will. But out of the Jewish community
• 40:16
  in UK, can you give any idea of your best guess of what
• 40:21
  percentage of people would align with what you've just said
• 40:26
  versus people who, who would be more vehement that that their
• 40:31
  home and their heart is in the country and the and with, with
• 40:36
  with the political state of Israel?
• 40:40
  I really don't know, but I think it's a minority.
• 40:43
  But you know, I, I'm not really aligned with any community and
• 40:48
  I, I don't know. And there are some ultra
• 40:52
  orthodox sects who are very outspoken about this and I'm not
• 40:58
  part of them. But, but if you look at the
• 41:02
  literature and the tradition, it's, it seems, it seems quite
• 41:09
  clear that what's being talked about is it is a spiritual
• 41:15
  journey. If it wasn't a spiritual
• 41:17
  journey, then it wouldn't be a religion.
• 41:19
  It would be some kind of a, well, something else that's put
• 41:23
  it like that. And so, so that that's the way I
• 41:28
  see it. And I, you know, I'm not
• 41:34
  intending on denigrating anyone, but I think that.
• 41:41
  That if. But to be true to the real
• 41:45
  tradition, you know, as I learn more about it, it's important
• 41:52
  and, and not to to. Be confused by all these other
• 41:57
  political considerations which which have to do with empire.
• 42:02
  You were kind enough. Well, I, I expressed to you my
• 42:06
  difficulties in actually being able to talk to talk to and
• 42:12
  interview some Jewish people. I, I put out some feelers and,
• 42:16
  and there were a couple that I was very, very keen to, to, to
• 42:22
  do an interview with, but I won't mention names or
• 42:26
  organisations. But one lady that I exchanged
• 42:29
  some really nice emails with and I thought, she's definitely
• 42:32
  going to give me an interview. And then there was a pause of a
• 42:35
  week and she talked about speaking to the committee and
• 42:40
  having spoken to the committee in the organization, she then
• 42:45
  sent me a very polite but rather cold e-mail saying that
• 42:50
  unfortunately she she didn't think it was appropriate for her
• 42:54
  to talk to me. So for me, working as a
• 42:58
  journalist, trying to understand more about how Israelis, how
• 43:03
  Jewish people feel about what's happening in the world at the
• 43:07
  moment, it's very difficult. I found it very difficult to
• 43:09
  engage. And I'd like to thank you
• 43:11
  because you've been kind enough to suggest a couple of people
• 43:15
  who may also speak to me. So we'll see, see what happens
• 43:18
  with that. But yeah, a learning point that
• 43:22
  when you approach Jewish people to say, tell me more about
• 43:28
  yourself and how you view the world and how you view Israel,
• 43:32
  there is a certain reticence for whatever reason.
• 43:36
  And I hope that, well, you've been brave enough to speak with
• 43:41
  me. But at least I'm now on the path
• 43:44
  to being able to have some discussions with Jewish people.
• 43:49
  So I say a big thank you for that.
• 43:52
  We live in a particularly volatile time at the moment,
• 43:55
  don't we, with events in Gaza. And I can tell you in no
• 44:03
  uncertain terms that when the troubles, you know, that this
• 44:07
  recent trouble started in in Israel and Gaza, it, the
• 44:13
  reaction of many members of the established members of the UK
• 44:17
  column audience was, was truly for me, astonishing.
• 44:22
  We had from people who would start an e-mail saying that how
• 44:27
  devout they were as Christians. We had some of the most
• 44:30
  unpleasant emails we have ever had.
• 44:34
  And those emails were sent on the basis that we, the UK column
• 44:39
  had dared to criticize Israel. And one person said to me that
• 44:45
  because in their opinion I'd criticized Israel, I was
• 44:49
  effectively damned. And I consider myself, I
• 44:55
  consider myself a Christian. And it's very interesting how
• 45:00
  many people in our audience are on a spiritual journey at the
• 45:06
  moment. And I think their faith is
• 45:08
  growing. And I meet some lovely people.
• 45:11
  But the trouble, the fighting and the war in Israel and then
• 45:19
  what subsequently is taking place in Gaza created a real
• 45:23
  division in our audience, which was quite something.
• 45:28
  How do you feel about the situation in the Middle East at
• 45:32
  the moment and can you tell us how you know how it makes you
• 45:36
  feel and probably also what what would you like to see happen?
• 45:41
  If I could start with the second part of it first, maybe because
• 45:50
  one always has to hold out some hope.
• 45:53
  But but I think, you know, there's, there is a movement to
• 45:59
  try and it sounds impossible, but the only hope I see is, is
• 46:04
  of there being eventually one democratic state in which people
• 46:12
  of any religion or colour or whatever political persuasion
• 46:19
  can live in peace with each other and in holding out that
• 46:24
  hope. I'm not, I'm not a utopian.
• 46:28
  I've tried that and it didn't work.
• 46:30
  I just know that that anything else is not going to work.
• 46:36
  And so that's the direction that the, and it does seem impossible
• 46:43
  right now, but that's the direction of travel for, for me
• 46:48
  and for people who I respect. As for what's happening now,
• 46:53
  it's beyond barbaric. I, I don't expect that Israel
• 47:01
  can ever recover from what, what it is doing.
• 47:05
  And, and I didn't know that I would be so shocked and
• 47:14
  appalled. And I am almost speechless
• 47:19
  actually. You know, Gabamate recently gave
• 47:22
  a speech and he said, I, I'm speechless.
• 47:26
  I don't have the words anymore. So I'm going to read from people
• 47:30
  who have found the words and, and that's what he did.
• 47:35
  And, and that's what I feel. It's, it's really leaving me
• 47:39
  speechless and, and, and distraught and, and a great deal
• 47:47
  of pain. And I just hope that that peace
• 47:53
  eventually prevails. But right now it's looking dark.
• 47:59
  It it's looking dark and and it has been truly horrible to see
• 48:03
  what's happening. Death, wherever it occurs and
• 48:06
  destruction is is bad. And when it's when, when it's
• 48:12
  magnified, when it's happening in big areas to lots of people,
• 48:16
  it's particularly cruel. I live in a country, the United
• 48:23
  Kingdom, where in 2025, I see my, well, not my Prime Minister,
• 48:29
  I have to put up with him. But I see Keir Starmer, who,
• 48:33
  when he's been asked about situation in the Middle East,
• 48:36
  shows absolutely no sympathy or empathy or any drive at all to
• 48:45
  stop what's happening and to start to bring peace and a
• 48:51
  sensible approach to what's happening in the Middle East.
• 48:54
  And this is something that I find fascinating because I, I
• 49:01
  don't know what my own Prime Minister is, because articles in
• 49:06
  the mainstream press seem to indicate that he's not actually
• 49:10
  Jewish himself. He's married to a Jewish lady,
• 49:13
  although he does admit to attending a synagogue.
• 49:17
  And so again, I've now got this problem that I here's the
• 49:21
  British Prime Minister. Where does his actual heart lie?
• 49:26
  Is it with UK or is it actually with Israel?
• 49:30
  And if it's with Israel, is it with the wider people of Israel
• 49:33
  or is it simply with the Zionist government?
• 49:38
  And I find this not only unsettling, I find this very,
• 49:43
  very annoying. I'm saying it with a smile on my
• 49:47
  face, but it's a very serious subject.
• 49:49
  Many years ago I I was happy to report because it was factually
• 49:54
  correct, that our then Prime Minister David Cameron
• 49:57
  Conservative Party said that his support for Israel was
• 50:02
  unshakeable. And I pointed out that if his of
• 50:05
  support for Israel was unshakable, it meant that Israel
• 50:10
  came first and UK came second. And I didn't ever get too much
• 50:17
  pushback for saying that, but I was telling the truth.
• 50:21
  I even, you know, put the biblical quote in that no man
• 50:25
  can have two masters because he will love one and hate the
• 50:28
  other. And I felt justified in saying
• 50:31
  that. But this brings us back to this
• 50:33
  conundrum of people acting in the interests of Israel.
• 50:38
  But are they? And what does Israel mean?
• 50:42
  It's quite confusing, but it is apparent that the political
• 50:49
  government in Israel is is immensely powerful and ruthless.
• 50:56
  Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 50:59
  And they have just look at the way that Israel was founded and
• 51:06
  the present government is the direct and what's happening now
• 51:09
  is simply magnified, A magnified version of of how it was
• 51:14
  founded. So I, I, I, I think there's no
• 51:19
  mystery there. And of course, you know, Israel
• 51:23
  is a nuclear state. It may not admit it most of the
• 51:27
  time, but it's a nuclear state. And, and it's not necessarily a
• 51:35
  rational state. The leaders are not necessarily
• 51:38
  rational about their own, their own country, their own people.
• 51:44
  Are they? Are they in fact doing their
• 51:47
  best for their own people or are they?
• 51:50
  Or is something else happening? So it's a very dangerous
• 51:54
  situation. But As for Keir Starmer and the
• 51:57
  government, well, you know, what can I say?
• 52:01
  I I. Don't, I don't know the story
• 52:04
  behind what his decisions, but I I don't, I don't think they're
• 52:10
  for the good, the best of the the British people.
• 52:17
  But I'm. Sure they're not.
• 52:20
  I know that. And and this complete
• 52:23
  heartlessness about the suffering of you know, we're all
• 52:26
  human beings. Whatever our colour or faith or
• 52:32
  whatever, we're all human. Beings so so how can how can he
• 52:37
  be? There are people who are
• 52:40
  starving to death and how can this be ignored?
• 52:45
  I I simply don't understand. Yeah, well, it's, it's a lack of
• 52:50
  humanity. I I think that we see a growing
• 52:55
  lack of humanity across humanity.
• 52:57
  So it affects people of different colours, faiths,
• 53:01
  countries. What we need to be looking for
• 53:05
  is, is what's inside each individual.
• 53:08
  I think that that is how we should be starting to measure
• 53:11
  people. Something that just pops into my
• 53:16
  mind is that you were kind enough not long ago to send me a
• 53:20
  poem which was about the planting of trees in Israel.
• 53:25
  It was quite poignant because it was to do with planting of trees
• 53:29
  to reforest areas that were originally Palestinian villages.
• 53:36
  And are you able just to tell us a little bit more about the
• 53:39
  origins of that poem? I wanted to, to mention, you
• 53:44
  know, that that it, it's not just about the trees, it's about
• 53:49
  Sykes Picot and the British role in, in dividing up that land,
• 53:57
  you know, but there are lots of issues there dividing the land
• 54:02
  and then the lies that had to go along with it all in order to,
• 54:07
  to, you know, the stories, the narratives.
• 54:10
  And so on. This is a poem that you sent to
• 54:13
  me and I, I loved it. I thought it was, it was really,
• 54:17
  it was a really nice poem, but also I was interested in the
• 54:20
  background. And then you've said to me that
• 54:22
  basically you've you've written a lot of poems, so.
• 54:28
  Let's not, OK, OK. I can send you more if you like.
• 54:37
  OK, what? What was the motivation to write
• 54:40
  those poems that or is is that something you've always done?
• 54:46
  Well, I've written poems. On and off, you know, in between
• 54:50
  other writing that I've done, the motivation to to write about
• 54:57
  political poems about that that involve politics was, you know,
• 55:05
  I was trying to find a way to to say things that were very
• 55:11
  difficult to say anyway, and maybe very difficult to say in
• 55:16
  other media. And I think honestly, you know,
• 55:20
  that maybe maybe songs and music would be the best way to get a
• 55:26
  lot of this, these ideas across. And poetry is, is on the way to,
• 55:35
  to, to that. It's a kind of written music, I
• 55:40
  think, but it's, it's not, it's obviously, you know, it's not a
• 55:46
  song. These are not songs, but but,
• 55:49
  but there are there are ways that people communicate.
• 55:56
  I I think goes right back to. Our origins, you know, and.
• 56:02
  And, and narratives and poetry have always been a part of that.
• 56:07
  I don't know how they got pushed out exactly, but I think they
• 56:12
  did, You know, it's certainly part of the British tradition,
• 56:17
  isn't it? You know, it, it really is.
• 56:20
  And and yet it it's been so pushed out and.
• 56:27
  I think deliberately actually too, yes, to weaken and
• 56:31
  undermine human interaction and absolutely and also to remove
• 56:37
  anything that's uplifting. But we we can talk about that a
• 56:42
  bit more, maybe another time. So, Lynn, if you will, read this
• 56:47
  lovely poem and then we can. Have a chat about it Brian.
• 56:50
  OK, so the poem is called Forests of Deception.
• 57:00
  If I had known what lay beneath the forest, what lay beneath the
• 57:05
  fields of imported flowers. If I had only known the voices
• 57:11
  of the dispossessed, silenced by men of a certain class, lounging
• 57:17
  comfortably in overstuffed chairs as the fits.
• 57:21
  A man of privilege puffing on thick cigars as they drew
• 57:26
  arbitrary lines on a map of land not theirs to give away.
• 57:31
  And the land cried out like raw meat bleeding beneath the
• 57:36
  butcher's knife. Now I hear them.
• 57:40
  Children who spoke an unfamiliar language.
• 57:43
  Mothers who dressed as our ancestors dressed.
• 57:47
  I hear the guns for poor. I smell the burning flesh Those
• 57:55
  who survived still carry the keys to their stolen homes, hold
• 58:00
  dear in memory their martyred children.
• 58:05
  The saplings grew into trees, covered the buried villages in
• 58:10
  their green embrace. Signs were placed in unfamiliar
• 58:15
  lettering at every entrance and exit.
• 58:19
  A story was concocted just like in a Hollywood movie.
• 58:24
  Lies became truth, Truth became lies.
• 58:29
  Forests of deception planted with alien seeds.
• 58:34
  But the Earth still remembers. Is anything still true?
• 58:40
  Is anything even true anymore? What is the price of truth these
• 58:45
  days? Memories return like silenced
• 58:49
  ghosts under the watchful gaze of the Sentinel stars, and
• 58:55
  through it all, the white bird flies across the concrete wall,
• 59:01
  still singing, still singing. Lovely Lynn, when, when did you
• 59:10
  actually write that? Very recently, maybe in the last
• 59:16
  few weeks. Right.
• 59:19
  And and what gave you the prompt, the stimulus to write
• 59:24
  that? I don't really know.
• 59:29
  These things just seem to happen.
• 59:33
  I was also thinking of a poem that a friend wrote.
• 59:41
  He's a Palestinian from Jerusalem and he he wrote about
• 59:47
  this white bird that he imagined flying across the barriers to
• 59:55
  the home he had grown up in and that he can never, he's not
• 1:00:00
  allowed to ever go back to. And for some reason that, well,
• 1:00:09
  for an obvious reason, that stuck.
• 1:00:11
  In my mind that the the bird can fly freely across these
• 1:00:15
  barriers. These man made barriers but.
• 1:00:21
  But but he's been exiled from his homeland.
• 1:00:26
  And I think that's where the bird, that's possible.
• 1:00:30
  That's one reason the bird flies so freely at the end.
• 1:00:36
  But the bird is, of course the bird of peace too, which we, we
• 1:00:40
  hope will one day reign in that land.
• 1:00:46
  Really wonderful. And I do think that proper
• 1:00:51
  uplifting art, which poetry must be part of it.
• 1:00:55
  Literature and art, yeah, has a job to play in trying to cut
• 1:01:00
  through what's happening. We've now not only got the
• 1:01:04
  tragedy of of what's happening around Israel and Gaza, we've
• 1:01:09
  now got that expanding into Iran and you clearly felt passionate
• 1:01:16
  about. This So really it's it's over to
• 1:01:20
  you. How do you feel from from your
• 1:01:23
  background? How do you feel about what's now
• 1:01:26
  unfolding in the Middle East and with?
• 1:01:30
  Iran, it's like a horror movie. The whole thing is it's like a
• 1:01:39
  horror movie that one one can't switch off.
• 1:01:43
  And it's going 24 hours a day. And of course I have relatives
• 1:01:49
  in that part of the world and I'm I'm worried about them and,
• 1:01:55
  but. What I feel is that that there
• 1:02:02
  were basically 2, at least two narratives going on with the
• 1:02:07
  family. One was that the Jews fleeing
• 1:02:12
  the Nazis needed a homeland, a safe place.
• 1:02:18
  And so that was one part of it. But the other part that we see
• 1:02:22
  so clearly now is, is empire that this was this beachhead
• 1:02:26
  into, into West Asia. And, and honestly, you know, it
• 1:02:33
  doesn't seem to matter what happens to ordinary Israelis or
• 1:02:37
  to ordinary Iranians. It's all it, it seems to me it's
• 1:02:42
  all about resources, oil, gas, you know, like trade routes and
• 1:02:49
  so on. And, and, and everyone is
• 1:02:52
  getting mangled in this, this, this absolutely horrific
• 1:02:56
  situation. And it, it's coming home now to,
• 1:03:01
  to the Israelis who have actually been perpetrating so
• 1:03:07
  many terrible things. But now, you know, they, they
• 1:03:12
  are under fire too. And maybe maybe they had a full
• 1:03:18
  sense of security, you know, that they were so superior and
• 1:03:22
  so on and so forth. So, so I'm no political analyst,
• 1:03:27
  honestly. I just you know, I, I hope that
• 1:03:32
  that that some calmer minds prevail that there is some some
• 1:03:41
  actors right now that who seem to be totally irrational, you
• 1:03:47
  know, and there's there's a lot of real, real evil going on.
• 1:03:53
  And so I just hope that that we don't all this doesn't like
• 1:03:58
  escalate into the sanction an option or something, something
• 1:04:03
  really horrible like that. But you know we.
• 1:04:10
  The people who? Who?
• 1:04:13
  Who seem to attain power are not the people who I, I would want
• 1:04:18
  to be in power. You know, they're, they're,
• 1:04:22
  they're often very compromised people.
• 1:04:25
  So I guess I'm just like that. Those are my immediate thoughts.
• 1:04:32
  Well, I I. I also, you know, watch what's
• 1:04:35
  happening and and you think, yeah, somebody needs to press a
• 1:04:38
  button and stop it because it is just so outrageous.
• 1:04:42
  We have we have the world stage as as many people use like to
• 1:04:49
  talk, use this expression, the world stage.
• 1:04:52
  And I look across the world stage and what I don't see is
• 1:04:57
  any of the most prominent politicians in any of the key
• 1:05:02
  countries talking about peace and stopping the violence and
• 1:05:07
  getting people to talk. And I, I am here at the age I
• 1:05:12
  am. I don't like talking about my
• 1:05:15
  age because you get to that age where you don't.
• 1:05:19
  But here I am. I'm 70 years old there.
• 1:05:24
  I've admitted it and and I think to myself that the people
• 1:05:29
  running my country, the United Kingdom, I just find them
• 1:05:34
  appalling. They don't have, they don't have
• 1:05:37
  any key human values or attributes.
• 1:05:42
  They don't seem to have any kindness or sympathy or empathy
• 1:05:47
  in them. They seem to be full of an
• 1:05:50
  unprecedented greed for power and money, and they can never
• 1:05:56
  have enough of, of, of either of those.
• 1:05:59
  And they seem to have an unbelievable scorn for their own
• 1:06:05
  nation state. So if anybody says to me that,
• 1:06:09
  for example, Tony Blair or David Cameron or Keir Starmer actually
• 1:06:15
  believe in the country they live in, I don't think they do.
• 1:06:19
  I don't think they care. They care.
• 1:06:22
  A fig is the expression of fig for the people in UK.
• 1:06:27
  And then if I look at America and I look at the political
• 1:06:29
  class there, I see exactly the same attribute.
• 1:06:34
  I see this raw, this outrageous raw aggression which is all
• 1:06:41
  based around more power, more greed.
• 1:06:44
  We've got to have more assets. We've got to, you know, we've
• 1:06:47
  got to take over rare earth minerals in Ukraine.
• 1:06:51
  We've got to have the oil that's in the Middle East.
• 1:06:55
  It's there's no, there's no move towards a stabilization of
• 1:07:00
  relations with other countries and trading which as with
• 1:07:06
  shopping should be an enjoyable human interaction.
• 1:07:09
  We trade to get the things we need, but also we trade to
• 1:07:13
  interact and. Communicate and.
• 1:07:16
  And have a relationship with other people in other countries,
• 1:07:20
  but I don't see any of that. And then if I look into the
• 1:07:23
  Middle East, I see the same attributes in Israel.
• 1:07:28
  I see it in Ukraine. This.
• 1:07:32
  Cannot be accidental. In my mind this has been a
• 1:07:36
  calculated policy to put these defective people in positions of
• 1:07:41
  power. That's that's my take on it.
• 1:07:44
  Oh, I think so, absolutely. And I think that, you know, the
• 1:07:49
  more the more corrupt and the more compromised someone is, the
• 1:07:54
  more, the more they will do things that, you know, someone
• 1:07:59
  who has some integrity would would not do.
• 1:08:02
  And so they're malleable to, to the deep state, to whatever the
• 1:08:08
  deep state policies are. And, and, and actually, you
• 1:08:13
  know, when, when one goes back like to, to, to documents like
• 1:08:19
  the Brookings Institute, which way to Persia, you can see this,
• 1:08:24
  what, what's happening was already road map, you know,
• 1:08:29
  decades ago it was road map. So, so we see it playing out and
• 1:08:33
  it looks like it's, it's all spontaneous, but actually it's
• 1:08:38
  not. It can't be, because if it was
• 1:08:40
  then why is it following the road map so closely?
• 1:08:44
  Yeah, this is a very, a very key point.
• 1:08:47
  But of course, documents like that, like the road map to
• 1:08:53
  Persia, sorry to yeah, to Persia that you mentioned, the average
• 1:09:00
  member of the public in UK or the US or Israel has no idea
• 1:09:04
  these documents exist. So it, it's all hidden in plain
• 1:09:08
  sight. It's actually.
• 1:09:10
  A cult behaviour, but it's hidden in plain sight.
• 1:09:15
  Cult behaviour. That's very interesting, Brad,
• 1:09:18
  you know, because goodness, that that's something that that would
• 1:09:26
  be interesting that learning more about and that, you know,
• 1:09:30
  I'd like to to know more about how, how, how this is a cult
• 1:09:36
  behaviour. Well, I, I have just said that
• 1:09:40
  using the most simple terms that what these horrible, wicked
• 1:09:45
  people do is always hide what they're really doing from the,
• 1:09:51
  from the wider nation state or from the wider public.
• 1:09:55
  So by by nature of the fact that they are never telling us the
• 1:10:00
  the truth or the exact truth, they're always hiding something.
• 1:10:04
  And the occult is all about the hidden.
• 1:10:07
  So if you say which side of the line are they, they're always in
• 1:10:12
  the dark side. That's.
• 1:10:14
  How I mean occult. Oh, as opposed to a cult?
• 1:10:19
  Yes. What a wonderful.
• 1:10:20
  I thought you said a cult ACUC, but you said occult, which is
• 1:10:27
  well, well, yes, absolutely. They, they, they think they're
• 1:10:31
  superior. They hold these meetings in
• 1:10:33
  secret, you know, Chatham House rules and so on.
• 1:10:37
  And they, they have total contempt for us and, and want to
• 1:10:41
  get rid of a lot of us. So it's, it's very, you know,
• 1:10:47
  it's waking up to all this is, is quite horrific.
• 1:10:53
  I can imagine that people don't want to go there.
• 1:10:58
  You. Know they don't want to go
• 1:10:59
  there. They want to.
• 1:11:00
  They want to think, well, you know, and my government just
• 1:11:06
  looking out for me. I've, I've heard people say, you
• 1:11:09
  know, well, my MP would never let this happen, whatever it is
• 1:11:13
  that's happening or, you know, we'll, we'll get, we'll write a
• 1:11:16
  letter and it and so forth. And they don't realise that that
• 1:11:21
  these decisions were made decades ago by people who, whose
• 1:11:27
  names we don't even know. And I don't even know, you know,
• 1:11:32
  who's really in charge of anything.
• 1:11:35
  Yeah, this is, this is very true, Lynn.
• 1:11:39
  You've said to me several times that there are many people who
• 1:11:43
  are trying to speak out. About what's happening in
• 1:11:50
  Israel. So they're Israelis, they're
• 1:11:52
  members of the Jewish community. What can you tell us about the
• 1:11:59
  people that clearly see through? What national politics is doing
• 1:12:05
  in Israel or the US? Where?
• 1:12:09
  Where do you see? Where do you see people
• 1:12:12
  speaking? Out.
• 1:12:15
  Well, they're trying to speak out in, in different venues.
• 1:12:19
  You know, they're, they're all, they're very different there.
• 1:12:22
  There are people in the people in Israel have got more and more
• 1:12:25
  marginalised. It's it, it, it seems like it's
• 1:12:28
  harder and harder to, to, to speak out there.
• 1:12:32
  It's it's quite dangerous, but it's also dangerous in, in, in
• 1:12:38
  America and here. What can I tell you, They're
• 1:12:41
  they're all different. I think they need more exposure.
• 1:12:45
  I mean, you know, for instance, this the, the idea of the, the
• 1:12:52
  one democratic state people, people are talking like, you
• 1:12:59
  know, Professor Jeffrey Sachs is talking all the time about the
• 1:13:03
  OR has been talking about the two state solution.
• 1:13:06
  And, and, and anyone who who looks at the what's been going,
• 1:13:12
  actually going on in Israel sees that it would be unworkable, you
• 1:13:16
  know, but but the voices who, who know about that are
• 1:13:20
  marginalised and silenced. So so we're not getting the true
• 1:13:24
  story. I guess that goes back again to
• 1:13:27
  the fact that, you know, there's one narrative being fed even in
• 1:13:30
  the, you know, the alternative, like the dissidents are not
• 1:13:35
  always always dissident. They're they're like controlled
• 1:13:39
  opposition. And so it's, it's kind of the
• 1:13:44
  fog of war, isn't it, where there are all these people
• 1:13:49
  speaking and, and it's very hard to make out, you know, what's
• 1:13:53
  the truth? Who's the one trust I I
• 1:13:57
  particularly now particularly, you know what, what the hell is
• 1:14:02
  going on? You know, one day Israel says
• 1:14:06
  that it controls the skies over Iran and the next day, you know,
• 1:14:15
  Iran like controls us Kaiser, but Israel.
• 1:14:18
  So what's good? We don't know what's going on
• 1:14:21
  unless we actually know someone or or or spend like 24 hours a
• 1:14:27
  day learning about it. We really don't know.
• 1:14:30
  And it's even must be even worse for people who who don't like
• 1:14:35
  watch programmes like you think column and and other other like
• 1:14:41
  sources of information. If they get the information from
• 1:14:46
  whatever the BBC, you know, I think they just live in a
• 1:14:51
  fantasy land. Then so are you.
• 1:14:55
  You mentioned a name there as somebody speaking out.
• 1:14:59
  Are you able to tell us any more about organisations which are
• 1:15:03
  speaking out that you think are trustworthy?
• 1:15:08
  Well, I think I, I mentioned to you that the, well, the one
• 1:15:14
  Democratic state campaign is run by Israeli Jeff Halper.
• 1:15:20
  And he, he lives in Israel and he's been working for years to
• 1:15:25
  try and advance this project of going back to a situation where
• 1:15:36
  where it's, it's everyone has equal rights, what in Israel,
• 1:15:40
  whatever their, their religion or, or, or ethnicity or
• 1:15:46
  whatever. And of course we've been, while
• 1:15:49
  he's been doing that, we've been moving further and further from
• 1:15:52
  it and in, in the most horrifying ways.
• 1:15:55
  So, so he's one person who I think has been doing such
• 1:16:00
  important work. And then, you know, there are
• 1:16:04
  people like Palestinian Professor Mazin Cumsay.
• 1:16:09
  I think that's how you pronounce this.
• 1:16:11
  And he's, he talks. All over the world.
• 1:16:14
  But he's been doing work on, you know, the, the botanical
• 1:16:23
  institute that he runs there. And so that's, you know, looking
• 1:16:29
  at the real history of, of the land.
• 1:16:32
  But that's the the truth is so important.
• 1:16:37
  Then I've I've worked with Jewish boys for peace in in
• 1:16:42
  America and, and they've been, I think.
• 1:16:46
  You know what they've been doing is important.
• 1:16:48
  They're questioning. They're questioning a lot, you
• 1:16:52
  know, they're, they're questioning Zionism, they're
• 1:16:55
  questioning this war and they're, they're working for a,
• 1:17:02
  a, a, a better world. I think.
• 1:17:05
  I mean, every organization has its problems and I don't endorse
• 1:17:11
  everything that they're doing, but but they are that there are
• 1:17:16
  people here in in in the UK like Professor I'm Bruce Brishi.
• 1:17:23
  And as of when Stanley and Matt Kennard, there's Loki, there's
• 1:17:29
  so many people, Craig Murray, all these people who are are
• 1:17:34
  doing their part to to try and illuminate this darkness that
• 1:17:41
  we're in. And you know, it's impossible
• 1:17:44
  for any one person to keep up with it all.
• 1:17:47
  But but those are just a few names to that come to mind.
• 1:17:52
  No, that's, that's really excellent.
• 1:17:54
  Lynn, that thank you for for mentioning those as, as I
• 1:18:00
  started to talk about at the beginning of, of the interview
• 1:18:03
  with you, I have been trying for a very long time to engage more
• 1:18:08
  with Jewish people to understand more about what it is to be
• 1:18:16
  Jewish and how the Jewish community sees Israel.
• 1:18:20
  And then I found that this is a very difficult thing to do
• 1:18:24
  because there's a lot of reticence.
• 1:18:28
  There's clearly some fear about speaking and you're going to
• 1:18:33
  upset the Israeli state or your fellow countrymen.
• 1:18:37
  And that that's a, a thing which gives rise to anxiety.
• 1:18:40
  And then there's, there's been speaking out and that brings in
• 1:18:48
  criticism and attacks for our media on, on what you have to
• 1:18:53
  say. So it has been a difficult one,
• 1:18:56
  But you, you, you have had the courage to speak to me and
• 1:19:00
  you've also been kind enough to, to provide me with some links.
• 1:19:04
  So I very much hope that I'm going to be able to talk to some
• 1:19:07
  other people. My, my personal stance more and
• 1:19:11
  more is that I get upset when I hear a name used, a generic
• 1:19:18
  name, which is apparently where all the problem is.
• 1:19:21
  So this, this can be anything. It can be it, it can be from
• 1:19:26
  people saying, well it's the Conservatives if we're talking
• 1:19:30
  UK or it's Labour. And even if you do mention those
• 1:19:34
  political groups and it's clear that political parties are not
• 1:19:38
  up to much, that's good. It's never right to say that
• 1:19:44
  everybody who happens to be a member of Labour or
• 1:19:47
  Conservatives is actually part of the real cabal that's causing
• 1:19:52
  the problem. And and then very often we have
• 1:19:56
  people highly critical of what America is doing in the world.
• 1:20:00
  You know, it's it's Biden, it's the Americans.
• 1:20:05
  This is this isn't right. I either Biden might be
• 1:20:09
  problems, but to try and say that everybody in America is
• 1:20:12
  bad. And then we get the same thing
• 1:20:14
  with with Israel. It's Israel.
• 1:20:17
  Well, what does that mean? Who are you talking about?
• 1:20:19
  You talking about the government or are you talking about the
• 1:20:22
  people? And if you're talking about the
• 1:20:24
  people do they will agree and. We know that they don't all
• 1:20:28
  agree. So it seems to me the start to
• 1:20:31
  unpicking this horrible stuff that's going on is we've got to
• 1:20:35
  get dialogue going with people and we've got to understand what
• 1:20:38
  the what the truth really is. And so I have wanted for a very
• 1:20:44
  long time to, to be able to talk with people who understand more
• 1:20:50
  because their birthright or experience living in Israel, you
• 1:20:54
  know what it's all about. And I can also say that I had AI
• 1:20:59
  had a, an e-mail this morning from a person who is living,
• 1:21:04
  lived in UK for a very long time, but their background is
• 1:21:07
  they were born in Iran. And that person said, well, you
• 1:21:12
  have to understand that there are plenty of people in Iran at
• 1:21:15
  the moment who are not happy with their own regime.
• 1:21:19
  They don't want war, but they're not happy with their own regime.
• 1:21:23
  And so once again, and I did reply by saying this is very
• 1:21:27
  interesting because of course, if we get going to get to the
• 1:21:31
  truth, we have to move through these labels.
• 1:21:35
  The Iranians are all bad and the Americans are good.
• 1:21:38
  Israel's bad and think it depends what we are talking
• 1:21:41
  about and we have to qualify it. I agree.
• 1:21:46
  You know, I remember that the first time that I, you know,
• 1:21:50
  having been brainwashed myself and I, I can tell you though, I
• 1:21:54
  was totally brainwashed at one time, really.
• 1:21:58
  But, you know, standing on a street corner and demonstration
• 1:22:04
  and beside me was, I don't know whether he was Palestinian or
• 1:22:10
  Iranian or anyway he was one of the, the others who are, you
• 1:22:14
  know, they're all bad, those people, and we're all good and
• 1:22:18
  we're superior and so on. And, and I thought, my goodness,
• 1:22:22
  I've never spoken to any of these people.
• 1:22:25
  I don't really know anything about them.
• 1:22:28
  And so I said to him, you know, here we are standing next to
• 1:22:32
  each other and I've never spoken to someone from wherever he was
• 1:22:38
  before because I didn't know what else to say.
• 1:22:41
  And, and I needed to say. I thought I needed to say
• 1:22:44
  something. And so we started talking and he
• 1:22:48
  was just an ordinary person like me, you know, with, with we had,
• 1:22:52
  we had a lot in common. And.
• 1:22:56
  So that was where we started. But but it it's those first
• 1:23:02
  steps that are so difficult to take.
• 1:23:06
  You know this, I think this is a really lovely point to end end
• 1:23:12
  on, Lynn, because this is the meat of it.
• 1:23:16
  If we can, if we can get people talking to each other and
• 1:23:19
  understanding what's really inside them and what they really
• 1:23:22
  think as opposed to what the world, the global mainstream
• 1:23:26
  media says. We will be doing very well.
• 1:23:30
  Absolutely, absolutely. And thank you for giving me this
• 1:23:34
  opportunity, you know, because I, I do feel passionately about
• 1:23:38
  the whole thing. I, I really want to see peace.
• 1:23:41
  Like I, this is just such a horrible situation right now.
• 1:23:47
  So no, I I just hope that that it gets resolved.
• 1:23:56
  Yes, well, we're all going to do our best.
• 1:23:59
  To to help that happen and making a noise in the
• 1:24:04
  appropriate way is something we can all do, isn't it?
• 1:24:07
  We can all challenge the system. Absolutely.
• 1:24:10
  Yeah. Let's end there.
• 1:24:12
  Thank. Thank you very much for joining
• 1:24:14
  me. Thank you.
• 1:24:16
  You're very welcome.