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#191 Jason Flom with Ru-El Sailor · Wrongful Conviction

0:03
Speaker 1: Best friends, Cordel Hubbard and Ruel Sailor, were small time
0:06
Speaker 1: dealers on the East side of Cleveland. On November sixteenth,
0:10
Speaker 1: two thousand and two, Cordell's sister Nicole was out partying
0:13
Speaker 1: with some friends. She fronted the group twenty bucks for drugs,
0:17
Speaker 1: but felt taken advantage of when she only got ten
0:20
Speaker 1: dollars back from the group of five. When she spoke up,
0:23
Speaker 1: a gun was pulled on her, so she called Cordel.
0:26
Speaker 1: While celebrating a birthday at a bar with a large
0:29
Speaker 1: group including will Sizemore and Ruelle, Cordell answered the call
0:33
Speaker 1: from Nicole and took Sizemore along to confront the two
0:37
Speaker 1: men who had done her wrong, Omar Clark and Clark
0:40
Speaker 1: Lamar Williams. They pulled up on these men on a
0:43
Speaker 1: darkened street, and Sizemore initially got out of the passenger
0:46
Speaker 1: side and confronted them about his sister, leading witnesses to
0:49
Speaker 1: believe that the passenger was Cordel. Cordell got out of
0:53
Speaker 1: the driver's side. Omar Clark pulled a gun and Cordell
0:56
Speaker 1: shot him in self defense, while the other man, Williams,
1:00
Speaker 1: got caught with a bullet in his buttocks as he
1:02
Speaker 1: ran away. Ruel was clearly not involved, but his tight
1:07
Speaker 1: friendship with Cordel and his days in the streets would
1:10
Speaker 1: come back to haunt him. A corrupt vice detective who
1:13
Speaker 1: had once vowed to get Ruel would use this opportunity,
1:16
Speaker 1: claiming an informant had told him that Ruel was the
1:19
Speaker 1: other man with Cordell while threatening and coercing Ruel's alibi
1:24
Speaker 1: witnesses into silence. Even with Cordell taking full responsibility and
1:28
Speaker 1: naming Will Sizemore as the other man before sentencing, Ruel
1:33
Speaker 1: still spent fifteen years behind bars. This is Wrongful Conviction
1:38
Speaker 1: with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
1:58
Speaker 1: That's me. I'm your host, and today, if I was
2:01
Speaker 1: going to title this episode, I would call it Web
2:03
Speaker 1: of Lies, because this case was built on so many
2:07
Speaker 1: different layers of lies, so many different people had to
2:10
Speaker 1: tell in order to convict an innocent man named Ruel
2:13
Speaker 1: Sailor of murder and other charges. So we'll get right
2:16
Speaker 1: into it. First of all, I want to introduce the
2:18
Speaker 1: woman who was responsible for Ruel winning his freedom a
2:22
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. Jennifer Passion Bergeron, who is the
2:26
Speaker 1: deputy director of the Ohio Innocence Project. So, Jennifer, welcome
2:29
Speaker 1: to Ronful Conviction. Thank you.
2:31
Speaker 2: It's good to be here. I would be remiss if
2:33
Speaker 2: I didn't give a shout out to Kim Carral too,
2:36
Speaker 2: because she was in private attorney that worked with me
2:38
Speaker 2: on this case.
2:39
Speaker 1: Thank you for doing that. And without further Ado Ruel Sailor,
2:44
Speaker 1: welcome to Ronfuel Conviction.
2:46
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
2:47
Speaker 1: And let's start in the beginning. So did you grow
2:50
Speaker 1: up in Cleveland.
2:51
Speaker 3: Yes, on the east side, the Saint Clair area in
2:54
Speaker 3: the east side of Cleveland. My mother, for as I remember,
2:57
Speaker 3: she always was a nurse. Sometimes he worked two three
3:00
Speaker 3: shifts a day. My father he was there. Then he
3:03
Speaker 3: wasn't there. He was in the streets. But then I
3:07
Speaker 3: had started get older, I had to be there to
3:09
Speaker 3: help out with my siblings. I have a younger brother
3:11
Speaker 3: and sister. So once my dad wasn't there, it was
3:14
Speaker 3: just us. And then as a teenager, I took more
3:17
Speaker 3: into the streets than school because I felt like I
3:19
Speaker 3: had to help my mom with my siblings. So I
3:21
Speaker 3: begin like to sell drugs at a young age and
3:24
Speaker 3: I drop out of high school in like tenth grade.
3:26
Speaker 1: Tell us about Cordell Hubbard, because he really is a
3:30
Speaker 1: central figure and this really crazy crime.
3:34
Speaker 3: Well black history of Cordell Hubbard. Me and Cordell Hubbard
3:37
Speaker 3: met in third grade and for some reason we ended
3:42
Speaker 3: up in the same class every grade throughout our whole
3:45
Speaker 3: entire school year up until high school. So he was
3:47
Speaker 3: always best friends and Jennifer.
3:50
Speaker 1: This started from a drug deal gone bad, right, but
3:54
Speaker 1: a very minor drug deal at that And this goes
3:56
Speaker 1: back to the night of November sixteenth of two thousand
3:59
Speaker 1: and two.
4:00
Speaker 2: One of the people that we'll be talking about is
4:02
Speaker 2: Clark Lamar Williams, and we'll just refer to him as
4:04
Speaker 2: Williams just to try to make it simpler. My understanding
4:08
Speaker 2: is Nicole Hubbard was with Omar Clark and Williams and
4:15
Speaker 2: a couple of her friends that night and they were driving.
4:18
Speaker 2: Omar Clark and Williams should buy a wet cigarette, one
4:22
Speaker 2: cigarette with PCP and I guess it was twenty bucks
4:25
Speaker 2: and Nicole fronted the twenty bucks. So when they stopped,
4:29
Speaker 2: I think it was Omar Clark that went in to
4:31
Speaker 2: get the money to pay her back. But didn't come
4:33
Speaker 2: back with twenty bucks, came back with only ten bucks,
4:36
Speaker 2: apparently because everyone had taken turns smoking, so I guess
4:40
Speaker 2: he figured he only needed to pay half of it.
4:42
Speaker 2: I don't know, but in any case, this did not
4:45
Speaker 2: go over well with the Cole Hubbard, and my understanding
4:49
Speaker 2: is Omar pulled a gun on her and that's when
4:51
Speaker 2: she called her brother and things escalated from there.
4:54
Speaker 3: Me and Grardill Hubbard, he was happening to be out
4:56
Speaker 3: sun to brain one of our friends' birthdays. He's had
4:59
Speaker 3: a bar and Cordell had received a phone call from
5:02
Speaker 3: his sister and Nicole Hubbert. Him and William Sizemore left
5:07
Speaker 3: the board and he was at and went to go
5:10
Speaker 3: confront these guys about his sister to go see about
5:12
Speaker 3: her well being, because he thought she was still there,
5:15
Speaker 3: and when he got there, she was gone. To my
5:17
Speaker 3: understanding from when I was told like Oldmark Clark pulled
5:20
Speaker 3: a gun on Cordell Hubbard twice and Cordell Hubbard shot
5:23
Speaker 3: Openmark Clark in self defense.
5:24
Speaker 1: Omar Clark was shot eleven times and mister Williams was
5:29
Speaker 1: running away from the scene and was shot. He was
5:32
Speaker 1: lucky to be shot in the butt and therefore not
5:35
Speaker 1: badly hurt. And the two men drove off afterwards.
5:40
Speaker 3: And so the witnesses that was on the scene had
5:43
Speaker 3: confused the driver and the passenger. William Sizemore was the passenger.
5:47
Speaker 3: ForDeal Hubbert was the driver, and William Sizemore got out
5:51
Speaker 3: and confronted the individuals saying, what do I do to
5:54
Speaker 3: my sister? So the witnesses on that street automatically assumed
5:57
Speaker 3: that the brother was the passenger, and that's where the
6:00
Speaker 3: confusion came at. So they always had put Cordell on
6:03
Speaker 3: the passenger side, and they didn't know who the driver was.
6:07
Speaker 3: So when they arrested Cordell for this crime, they was
6:10
Speaker 3: charging him as an accomplice because the driver was the
6:12
Speaker 3: shooter and they didn't have a second person. And going
6:15
Speaker 3: back to my history in the streets, there was a
6:17
Speaker 3: vice cop from my neighborhood that particularly didn't get along
6:21
Speaker 3: with me per se, and he had planned drugs on
6:24
Speaker 3: me once before and I didn't go to prison, and
6:26
Speaker 3: he felt that I said with the prison. He told
6:28
Speaker 3: me that he would get me one day. And so
6:31
Speaker 3: when Cordell name came up in his crime, they automatically
6:34
Speaker 3: just assumed I was with Cordell because we've always been
6:37
Speaker 3: together for so many years, and everyone knew that we
6:39
Speaker 3: were best friends. So this cop told the homicide detectives
6:42
Speaker 3: that he had a complicitive informant, which was never named,
6:47
Speaker 3: never brought up during our trial, just his word. He
6:50
Speaker 3: had a complicatory informant told him that I was the
6:52
Speaker 3: driver and that I was the shooter, and I was
6:55
Speaker 3: arrested based upon that.
6:56
Speaker 1: And then we fast forward, of course, to March twenty six,
6:59
Speaker 1: two thousand three, and a grand jury indicted you, well,
7:03
Speaker 1: right on charges of murder, kidnapping, and assault. But I
7:07
Speaker 1: mean the alibi it's pretty strong in this case, right,
7:11
Speaker 1: I mean he was miles and miles away across town
7:14
Speaker 1: with lots of other people, right.
7:15
Speaker 2: Yes, we have several affidavits from different people later on
7:20
Speaker 2: who could have potentially testified at the trial, but they
7:24
Speaker 2: also said in their appidats that they were threatened by
7:27
Speaker 2: the police if they did show up to testify.
7:30
Speaker 1: Now, the case went to trial in May of two
7:33
Speaker 1: thousand and three, and all three of you were tried together.
7:36
Speaker 1: First of all, it seems like a very quick turnaround,
7:39
Speaker 1: and I can't leave out the fact that when I
7:41
Speaker 1: see the words Cyahoga County, I immediately get the chills,
7:45
Speaker 1: because we keep hearing about cases from Cuyahoga County wrongful
7:48
Speaker 1: conviction one after the other.
7:51
Speaker 3: I was indicted more twenty six. I was arrested April second,
7:56
Speaker 3: Whdell Hubbard was already indicted and was out on bond
8:00
Speaker 3: and his court date prior to me being arrested. The
8:03
Speaker 3: state didn't have any witnesses to come to court, so
8:06
Speaker 3: the judge, Nancy MacDonald told were they owe, his lawyers
8:10
Speaker 3: and the prosecutors that she was going to reschedule next
8:14
Speaker 3: court date for May nineteenth. To my understanding that they
8:18
Speaker 3: didn't come May nineteenth with witnesses, that the case would
8:21
Speaker 3: be thrown out. In the midst of that, I was
8:24
Speaker 3: arrested and they added Cordell and the code to my
8:29
Speaker 3: new indictment, but kept they saying court date May nineteenth
8:33
Speaker 3: was their original court date to start a trial. Or
8:36
Speaker 3: lawyers who I was separate trial, they denied as a
8:38
Speaker 3: separate trial, and I had to nearly prepare for a
8:41
Speaker 3: murder trial from April second to May nineteen.
8:44
Speaker 1: Jennifer, this all sounds pretty irregular, even amongst the crazy
8:48
Speaker 1: shit we hear week to week on this podcast.
8:51
Speaker 2: Well, I can't imagine as an attorney trying to get
8:55
Speaker 2: ready for a murder case in basically a month. So
9:00
Speaker 2: that set the whole stage for things to just go
9:02
Speaker 2: downhill because there just wasn't time to do the type
9:05
Speaker 2: of investigation that would have been necessary to mount the
9:07
Speaker 2: proper defense.
9:09
Speaker 3: By the time I had put my witness list together,
9:13
Speaker 3: the detective on my case, before I can even make
9:16
Speaker 3: calls to get to these witnesses, he had already got
9:18
Speaker 3: to them. The board that I was at, he got
9:21
Speaker 3: to the owner and he told her that if she
9:23
Speaker 3: came to court of my defense, he would he would
9:25
Speaker 3: get her board raided, like raided for drugs and shut down,
9:28
Speaker 3: like he was like playing drugs at her bar. And
9:31
Speaker 3: he's known for this throughout our neighborhood, so she didn't
9:34
Speaker 3: want to jeopardize her business, which I understand. And then
9:37
Speaker 3: my other witnesses neighbors in the street life as well,
9:39
Speaker 3: and he went to them and threatened them with planning
9:42
Speaker 3: drugs on them and getting those guys cases, so they
9:44
Speaker 3: didn't come to court. So when it came time for trial,
9:47
Speaker 3: I didn't have any out of out witnesses that was
9:49
Speaker 3: on my list to come to court, because this detective
9:52
Speaker 3: had when it spoke to all of them and threatened
9:54
Speaker 3: them not to come to court.
9:55
Speaker 1: So you didn't have a shot in l when it
9:57
Speaker 1: really comes down to it. And I don't think the
9:59
Speaker 1: best lawyer in the world could have helped you out
10:01
Speaker 1: of that situation with what they were willing to do,
10:03
Speaker 1: the links they were willing to go to. So the trial,
10:06
Speaker 1: did you think, after having seen all the worst of
10:09
Speaker 1: what our quote unquote justice system has to offer, did
10:13
Speaker 1: you think that you still had a chance to be acquitted.
10:16
Speaker 3: I was skeptical because my jury wasn't of my peers.
10:19
Speaker 3: Majority of my jury were older, white people from suburban areas.
10:24
Speaker 3: And so the biggest thing in this case was identification.
10:28
Speaker 3: There was no physical evidence, no scientific evidence, no bullets cases,
10:33
Speaker 3: none of that. The witnesses in this case described the
10:37
Speaker 3: two individuals as two light skinned males that looked like brothers.
10:43
Speaker 3: For they'll hover, it's the same skin complexion as Steph Curry,
10:47
Speaker 3: and you would put me as the same complexion as
10:49
Speaker 3: maybe Lebron James or Dwayne Wade maybe. And I'm sitting
10:53
Speaker 3: there and I'm like, these human beings in this jury
10:55
Speaker 3: box has to understand that me and Cordell Hubbard could
10:59
Speaker 3: never look alike on no scene, no setting, whatsoever, two
11:02
Speaker 3: different shades of color completely. But when you get a
11:06
Speaker 3: jury that's not from my culture of my background, they
11:09
Speaker 3: just see two African Americans, so it was a different
11:12
Speaker 3: I didn't know that, but I know now. I'm just
11:14
Speaker 3: thinking that everybody knows about light skin and dark skin,
11:17
Speaker 3: and that's just common sense. I wasn't aware that there
11:20
Speaker 3: are people that live in this world that don't know that.
11:23
Speaker 1: So the jury comes back in what was that moment
11:26
Speaker 1: or those moments like for you.
11:29
Speaker 3: It was a moment of clarity, because before you go
11:32
Speaker 3: through those things, you feel like nobody goes to jail
11:35
Speaker 3: that didn't do anything unless you know somebody that's actually innocent.
11:39
Speaker 3: So I'm sitting there and I'm like, they just found
11:41
Speaker 3: me guilty of something I didn't even see. I wasn't
11:45
Speaker 3: even nowhere nearer the scene of the crime, hadn't been
11:47
Speaker 3: nowhere near that side of the town or anything. But
11:49
Speaker 3: to make it even worse that I'm being convicted of
11:52
Speaker 3: a crime that the man standing next to me actually
11:55
Speaker 3: committed and here I am being found guilty of a
11:58
Speaker 3: crime I never saw.
12:08
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12:15
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13:24
Speaker 3: It was an even heavier blow between me being convicted
13:28
Speaker 3: and me going to prison, because Creil Hubber comes forward
13:31
Speaker 3: and he admits that he killed Omar Clark, and he
13:35
Speaker 3: admits that William Sizon World was with him and that
13:38
Speaker 3: I was nowhere near that, and that he played on
13:39
Speaker 3: my innocence to get free, and now he wants to
13:42
Speaker 3: tell the truth. So when we get ready to go
13:44
Speaker 3: to Sensing, the plan is he selling his attorney that
13:48
Speaker 3: when we go to Senson there were news cameras in
13:50
Speaker 3: there and media in there, So he was saying like,
13:53
Speaker 3: I'm going to speak the truth in front of the
13:55
Speaker 3: cameras and blow this whole thing up. So I don't
13:59
Speaker 3: know if his lawyer plays both sides or what. But
14:01
Speaker 3: we go to Sencent and are judged. She kicks the
14:05
Speaker 3: media out of the courtroom before court starts. Cordial still
14:08
Speaker 3: confesses to the crime, and she still convicts me right
14:11
Speaker 3: there on the spot, sends me to twenty eight years
14:13
Speaker 3: to life.
14:14
Speaker 1: He's actually solving the case for them, right, he's identified,
14:18
Speaker 1: which took some courage. I mean it was too it
14:21
Speaker 1: was too late as it turns out, but it did
14:22
Speaker 1: take some courage. Hubbard signed a Swan statement right claiming
14:27
Speaker 1: that Rouel was not with him at the crime scene,
14:30
Speaker 1: and he said it was quote unquote, it was a
14:32
Speaker 1: guy named Will and he meant by that Will size bore.
14:35
Speaker 1: And it goes on to say, I didn't think it
14:37
Speaker 1: was going to turn out like this. I didn't think
14:39
Speaker 1: my best friend would get convicted as a shooter. But
14:42
Speaker 1: he wasn't even there.
14:43
Speaker 3: So I have to follow a new trial motion based
14:46
Speaker 3: on Cordell's affidavit amanting to this crime. We sent subpoenas
14:50
Speaker 3: to William Sizemore. So we have this retrial here where
14:54
Speaker 3: we present all to the courts. Cordeal takes the stand
14:58
Speaker 3: at the retrial here stead he killed Omar Clark, describes
15:02
Speaker 3: the whole night in detail, how it happened, how he left,
15:05
Speaker 3: everything that happens. Before Cordell can make it back to
15:09
Speaker 3: his seats, he denies me a new trial, then sends
15:12
Speaker 3: me to prison.
15:13
Speaker 1: Jennifer, help us out here. What was going on here
15:16
Speaker 1: that they were so actively disinterested in knowing what really happened.
15:21
Speaker 2: I don't have an answer for that. I don't know
15:23
Speaker 2: how you could hear that testimony and not try to
15:27
Speaker 2: fix this wrong.
15:29
Speaker 1: So, I mean, years go by and we're all the
15:32
Speaker 1: way to twenty thirteen, when you filed another petition asking
15:37
Speaker 1: for a new trial based on another sworn AFFI, David, right, right,
15:41
Speaker 1: Do you want to walk us through that.
15:43
Speaker 3: You Mark Clark, the victim's brother, Omark Clark's brother. He
15:48
Speaker 3: was heavily involved in the whole entire investigation. And that's
15:51
Speaker 3: how a lot of things worked out on the Cordell
15:54
Speaker 3: and the Cole Hubberd side, because you work. Clark would
15:56
Speaker 3: go talk to the witnesses, he would go talk to Williams,
15:59
Speaker 3: and he would go relay everything he found out in
16:01
Speaker 3: the streets to the police, and that's how they found
16:04
Speaker 3: out who Cordell and the Cole Hover even was. Fast forward.
16:09
Speaker 3: You Mark Clarker's in prison. I write him a letter
16:12
Speaker 3: and he writes me back. He tells me that days
16:14
Speaker 3: after trial he knew the truth. William Sizemore had came
16:17
Speaker 3: forward to him and told him that he was with
16:21
Speaker 3: Cordell the night of the shooting, that Cordell killed his brother.
16:25
Speaker 3: He said, Man, send a lawyer at me, or send
16:27
Speaker 3: an investigator at me. I'll do an affidavit. So I'm
16:31
Speaker 3: thinking this was the mother load right here. So I'll
16:33
Speaker 3: get the affidavit. I found me a new trial motion again,
16:36
Speaker 3: this newly discovered evidence. The same judge, Nancy McDonald.
16:40
Speaker 1: I feel like it would be a more objective process
16:43
Speaker 1: if it was a different judge. But she denied that
16:46
Speaker 1: petition without a hearing. The petition's dismissal was upheld on
16:49
Speaker 1: appeal in twenty fourteen. And then how did you end
16:53
Speaker 1: up contacting the Ohio Innocence Project.
16:56
Speaker 3: I had wrote to the Ohio Interest Project. They never
17:00
Speaker 3: denied my case, they just at the times that I
17:02
Speaker 3: wrote them. They responded saying they had a heavy case load.
17:04
Speaker 3: So I understood that I'm going to keep fighting and
17:07
Speaker 3: keep building evidence as I go, so if they do
17:10
Speaker 3: come along, I'll have enough. And in the midst of that,
17:12
Speaker 3: I had retained the attorney, amazing attorney, Kimberly Curel, my wife,
17:17
Speaker 3: Amy Saylor, my family. They was out here and they
17:19
Speaker 3: was be down doors having rallies. And then Kyle Swinson
17:23
Speaker 3: from the Scene magazine had did an article on me
17:26
Speaker 3: and I had like a ten pay spread and the
17:28
Speaker 3: Ohio Interest Project and then they had contacted me. They
17:32
Speaker 3: had seen the traction I had with my cases was going.
17:34
Speaker 3: They looked into it, and Jennifer and this student Andrew
17:39
Speaker 3: and Ruby, they came to see me I was in
17:40
Speaker 3: Ohio State Penitentiary and went over my case and I
17:43
Speaker 3: just I just knew right then and there, like I
17:45
Speaker 3: was about to go home.
17:46
Speaker 1: So, Jennifer, how did you crack this case?
17:51
Speaker 2: There was really nothing to crack. I mean, by the
17:53
Speaker 2: time we got the case, we knew exactly what had
17:55
Speaker 2: happened because everybody had already explained that Cordell admitted he
17:59
Speaker 2: was the shooter. We knew William Sizemore it admitted he
18:01
Speaker 2: was the second person there, and so there really wasn't
18:05
Speaker 2: anything to solve. We knew from the get go that
18:08
Speaker 2: Ruel wasn't there and had nothing to do with it.
18:11
Speaker 2: The challenge was to convince the prosecutor in the court
18:16
Speaker 2: to let him out of prison since he was innocent,
18:19
Speaker 2: and that's what took a long time. So in the
18:22
Speaker 2: spring of twenty sixteen, I think his other attorney, Kim,
18:26
Speaker 2: we started working cooperatively together to try to figure out
18:29
Speaker 2: a plan to get Ruel out and then we were
18:33
Speaker 2: kind of working with additional investigation to try to find
18:36
Speaker 2: anything else we could, and that's where we got additional
18:39
Speaker 2: affidavits from some of the alibi witnesses and from Nicole Hubbard.
18:43
Speaker 2: And because he'd already filed as we were talking about,
18:46
Speaker 2: before these new trial motions that had been denied, it
18:49
Speaker 2: looked like the best path for him was to try
18:53
Speaker 2: the conviction Integrity Unit that had opened in Cuyahoga County.
18:58
Speaker 3: My whole time at prison, every attorney, every investigator, everybody
19:04
Speaker 3: always told me like, if William Sizemore was to ever
19:06
Speaker 3: come forward and tell the truth, that's your go to key,
19:10
Speaker 3: you walking out of prison. So I'm in Lucasville and
19:14
Speaker 3: I get a phone called and Kim is crying. As
19:16
Speaker 3: soon as I called, I'm like, why why is she crying?
19:19
Speaker 3: She's like, William Sizemore just went to the prosecutor's office
19:23
Speaker 3: and told the truth. So in my mind, they about
19:27
Speaker 3: to come pop my door in the next five minutes
19:29
Speaker 3: and I'm about to walk out of here. It didn't
19:31
Speaker 3: happen like that, though, Like I still sat in prison
19:33
Speaker 3: for like almost eight nine months. After William Sizemore came
19:37
Speaker 3: forward and told the truth and the prosecutors from the CiU,
19:42
Speaker 3: Russell tied him and Kim came to see me and
19:44
Speaker 3: he's like, well, we gotta do some more investigating. And
19:47
Speaker 3: at this point, William Sizemore has admitted that he was
19:50
Speaker 3: with Cordial Hubbard and that Cordill Hubbard shot Odmark Clark
19:53
Speaker 3: in self defense and said that old Mark Clark had
19:55
Speaker 3: a gun. Williams had came forward and recanted and said
19:59
Speaker 3: he never saw me a day of his life and
20:01
Speaker 3: that they made him say that I was the shooter.
20:05
Speaker 3: My witness is body Netto's Anthony McKenzie. They've came forward
20:09
Speaker 3: and told the truth that they was threatened. Correll has admitted,
20:12
Speaker 3: So I have all this evidence mounted with me saying
20:15
Speaker 3: that I'm innocent, and the prosecutor told me that he
20:18
Speaker 3: had to go do more investigation and was going to
20:21
Speaker 3: leave me in prison. So I had to ask, well,
20:24
Speaker 3: where's William sideboard and he told me William Sizemore was
20:26
Speaker 3: at home because he didn't see him as a suspect.
20:31
Speaker 3: The system is not built right at all.
20:34
Speaker 1: Was there a worst moment in that fifteen years, in
20:37
Speaker 1: that very very dark place where you almost gave up,
20:41
Speaker 1: or where it's just a moment of absolute despair And
20:45
Speaker 1: at the same time, what was the happiest moment.
20:47
Speaker 3: Well, the happiest moment would be they told me I
20:49
Speaker 3: was going home. But just a quick how I went
20:52
Speaker 3: from dark to light. I was in Lucasville and it's
20:56
Speaker 3: like the worst prison in Ohio, hands down. And I
21:00
Speaker 3: was I was on a straight path. I was stayed
21:01
Speaker 3: out of trouble, and I was trying to get my
21:03
Speaker 3: status dropped so I can go to a lower level prison.
21:07
Speaker 3: And right before I went up to get up my
21:09
Speaker 3: status dropped for a lower level prison, I was a
21:11
Speaker 3: porter and a dust pan had came up missing. Now,
21:14
Speaker 3: a dustpan in any other prison or any other times
21:17
Speaker 3: is a minor thing. They don't make a big deal
21:20
Speaker 3: about it or nothing. But this particular time, they made
21:23
Speaker 3: the biggest deal about this dust pan. And they tried
21:26
Speaker 3: to give me like a LC which is like sixty
21:29
Speaker 3: days in the hole and segregation, and they tried to
21:32
Speaker 3: take my status being lowered away from me and all
21:35
Speaker 3: these things and my phone privileges and my visit privileges,
21:39
Speaker 3: and it was like it just came out of nowhere,
21:40
Speaker 3: and it was like I didn't even do nothing. It
21:43
Speaker 3: was like this is the story of my life. And
21:45
Speaker 3: so they put me in the hole and They wouldn't
21:46
Speaker 3: trying to hear me out. They weren't trying to wash
21:48
Speaker 3: the camera to see. They have these high tech cameras,
21:51
Speaker 3: and I just keep saying, wash the camera. It's just
21:53
Speaker 3: something simple. Wash the camera. You would see I didn't
21:56
Speaker 3: touch the dust pan. They refused to wash the camera.
21:59
Speaker 3: So it was like this is it set up or something?
22:01
Speaker 3: And I got to the whole. I just went on
22:03
Speaker 3: a hunger strike because I had to fight for my
22:06
Speaker 3: way without being violent or being rude or anything like that.
22:10
Speaker 3: So I just refused to eat me refusing to eat
22:13
Speaker 3: being the person I was in prison, I was had
22:16
Speaker 3: a little bit of a mount of respect. A lot
22:17
Speaker 3: of other guys follow suit, and they refused they trades
22:21
Speaker 3: on account what they was doing to me because everybody
22:23
Speaker 3: knew they never did. It's a lot of dust bands.
22:25
Speaker 3: So long story short, I went to do like seven eight,
22:28
Speaker 3: I think like ten days on hunger strike in solitary confinement,
22:32
Speaker 3: not a soul around me. I'm by myself, and it's
22:35
Speaker 3: like I'm just feeling like this damn near to eat.
22:38
Speaker 3: I'm feeling like I'm about to die in the CeAl.
22:39
Speaker 3: I ain't eight. I'm not feeling good and they come
22:43
Speaker 3: get me. So I had a lawyer phone call and
22:45
Speaker 3: I came got the phone. It was genderfer Kim and
22:50
Speaker 3: the Channel five news from my city, Joe Packin Naggas
22:54
Speaker 3: all on three way on the phone with me, and
22:56
Speaker 3: I'm like, what's going on? What was going on? And
22:58
Speaker 3: they was like, that's it, You're coming home. You'd be
23:01
Speaker 3: out a couple of days. It went from like the
23:04
Speaker 3: worst time in prison to the best time in prison,
23:07
Speaker 3: all one cycle, for.
23:09
Speaker 1: The literal depths of despair, starving alone in solitary confinement
23:14
Speaker 1: for another crime E didn't commitment.
23:16
Speaker 3: And then they finally decide to watch the camera and
23:18
Speaker 3: another porter head through the dustband in the trash by mistake.
23:33
Speaker 1: Ultimately, you obviously were freed. And when I say freed,
23:38
Speaker 1: I chose that word carefully because even after all of this,
23:44
Speaker 1: they still weren't done messing with you, right, Because what
23:48
Speaker 1: I'm referring to is, in March twenty eighteen, the prosecutor
23:52
Speaker 1: Andrew Well's team file the joint motion vacating conviction all
23:57
Speaker 1: the convictions and dismissing all the charges. But there was
24:01
Speaker 1: another little dirty trick, right, which is that the prosecution
24:04
Speaker 1: had a caveat, and they said to you, well that
24:08
Speaker 1: you had to plead guilty to perjury and obstruction of justice,
24:13
Speaker 1: saying that you had falsely testified at trial that Cordell
24:16
Speaker 1: was not involved in the shooting, and in exchange for this,
24:19
Speaker 1: they were willing to re sentence you to ten years,
24:22
Speaker 1: which obviously you had already served a lot longer than that,
24:25
Speaker 1: and you could go home.
24:26
Speaker 3: I never disclosed at pordial and William Size more than
24:29
Speaker 3: left the board, and I stayed. I never really lied.
24:33
Speaker 3: We was together all that night, which I didn't find
24:35
Speaker 3: out he left the board to after the fact. And
24:37
Speaker 3: so they told me that I lied. Understand I committee perjury,
24:41
Speaker 3: perjury and obstrusting the justice. They gave me five years
24:44
Speaker 3: max on each one equal to ten years. And at
24:48
Speaker 3: this point they hold it in front of me like, well,
24:49
Speaker 3: you can go home right now. If you agreed it is,
24:51
Speaker 3: you can go home. You don't agree it is, you
24:54
Speaker 3: know telling how long it might take for us to
24:56
Speaker 3: get you a new trial, starty, It might take a year,
24:59
Speaker 3: it might take two years, who knows, but you can
25:00
Speaker 3: go home right now. Did you say you take these
25:03
Speaker 3: ten years time? Serve? So I agreed to it, even
25:06
Speaker 3: though I know it wasn't right. I agreed to it
25:08
Speaker 3: because I wanted to go home. Who don't want to
25:09
Speaker 3: go home after being in jail for fifteen years? What
25:12
Speaker 3: primary didn't commit?
25:13
Speaker 1: It's an unreal story. And of course, now fast forward
25:16
Speaker 1: to March of twenty twenty, you file the federal civil
25:20
Speaker 1: rights lawsuit against the Cleveland Police Department and non officers
25:23
Speaker 1: seeking damages for your wrongful conviction, and your team also
25:27
Speaker 1: filed a separate complaint in the Kuyahoga Court of Climbing
25:30
Speaker 1: Polease to have you declared wrongfully in prisoned and therefore
25:35
Speaker 1: eligible for state compensation or actually innocent, however you want
25:38
Speaker 1: to look at it, So we don't need to get
25:39
Speaker 1: into that now. But I just want to say that
25:42
Speaker 1: all of us in the family, the roycal conviction family,
25:44
Speaker 1: and and it's community are all rooting for you.
25:46
Speaker 3: I can't let this platform go without sharing where I'm
25:49
Speaker 3: at currently since being released. I married my wife on
25:54
Speaker 3: my one year anniversary March twenty eighth. As of recently,
25:57
Speaker 3: I just had a daughter, Mayels. She was born on
26:02
Speaker 3: the twelfth of October. I started a business when I
26:06
Speaker 3: came home from prison. I still a clothing line call
26:09
Speaker 3: Comma Club Clothing. The Comma means continuation. The mantra is
26:13
Speaker 3: my story is not over. No one's story is ever over.
26:16
Speaker 3: As long as you get up and continue to fight
26:18
Speaker 3: what you want in life, your story is never over.
26:21
Speaker 3: I've done speaking engagements. I go to high schools, colleges
26:25
Speaker 3: and tell my story and you can find me on
26:28
Speaker 3: Instagram at Comma Underscore Club Underscore Clothing. Thank you.
26:34
Speaker 1: That's Comma Underscore Club Underscore Clothing. Follow Ruel. The clothes
26:39
Speaker 1: are great. I've seen them and they're comfortable too. So
26:42
Speaker 1: I'm giving up. I'm giving my plug. So now this
26:46
Speaker 1: is the part of the podcast, which is my favorite part.
26:50
Speaker 1: I always say that because this is the part where
26:53
Speaker 1: I get to first of all, I think both of
26:56
Speaker 1: you for coming and taking your time and sharing your
27:00
Speaker 1: story and just for being freedom fighters that you are.
27:03
Speaker 1: And so Jennifer Passion Vergeron, thank you again for being
27:07
Speaker 1: on the show today.
27:08
Speaker 2: It's been my pleasure.
27:09
Speaker 1: Thank you, and Ruell you know, once again you're a
27:12
Speaker 1: hero to me and so many others. And I'm just
27:15
Speaker 1: so thrilled that we got to talk today, and you
27:19
Speaker 1: know we're going to be friends for a long time,
27:20
Speaker 1: So thanks again for sharing your strength and your spirit
27:24
Speaker 1: with the audience. Oh thank you for having me on
27:27
Speaker 1: one hundred percent. So now what happens is I turned
27:30
Speaker 1: my microphone off, kick back, close my eyes and just
27:33
Speaker 1: listen to closing arguments. Jennifer you first, please, and then
27:37
Speaker 1: you can just hand it off to ru Well.
27:40
Speaker 2: I just want to say thank you to everyone for
27:42
Speaker 2: listening and being interested in these issues because they are
27:46
Speaker 2: pervasive throughout the country and they need to be heard.
27:49
Speaker 2: The stories and the exoneries and just the awareness in general.
27:53
Speaker 2: And if you get the chance to work on a jury,
27:55
Speaker 2: please do so and just be skeptical and look for
27:58
Speaker 2: the truth.
28:00
Speaker 3: Jennifer, I love you, Thank you for what you've done.
28:03
Speaker 3: And I can't leave this podcast without giving my wife,
28:06
Speaker 3: Amy Saylor her roses, as well as Kim Correll and
28:10
Speaker 3: Tim Pablished, Andrew and Ruby and work at the OP.
28:15
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be seeing her having this conversation. It wouldn't
28:17
Speaker 3: for these people because they fought for me on the outside.
28:20
Speaker 3: Like Kim Corell was my attorney. She did ten times
28:24
Speaker 3: more than what I paid her for. Leave that and
28:26
Speaker 3: she's been a friend from their own out and the
28:29
Speaker 3: op has tocome a family. They don't just get you
28:31
Speaker 3: out of prison, but they stick with you the whole
28:34
Speaker 3: time while you're out. I just wanted to just give
28:36
Speaker 3: all them their flowers. Now I get a joy out
28:40
Speaker 3: of just sharing my story. It's about the awareness of
28:43
Speaker 3: what's going on in our world, our country, far as
28:45
Speaker 3: our legal system and how our courts, police officers, things
28:49
Speaker 3: of that nature. The jury's handle theirselves because I was
28:53
Speaker 3: once that person that didn't believe these things happen. So
28:56
Speaker 3: the more we share stories like minds and others, we
28:58
Speaker 3: wake up more people than know that these things actually happen.
29:02
Speaker 3: If you know someone in prison, please contact them, Please
29:05
Speaker 3: come and gaze in their cases. Just be there for
29:08
Speaker 3: those guys that are in prison. There are a lot
29:10
Speaker 3: more guys in prison that are innocent. I say that
29:12
Speaker 3: over and over again. There are so many more. I'm
29:15
Speaker 3: just one of many that happen to make it out.
29:17
Speaker 3: There's so many more in there. So I encourage people
29:20
Speaker 3: to be on the jury Listen, be attentive, study these cases.
29:23
Speaker 3: If you're in the jury, and just help people that
29:26
Speaker 3: you know that's are incarcerated. Write them, send them a letter,
29:29
Speaker 3: give them a phone call anything like that because it
29:31
Speaker 3: means a lot. It means a lot more than you
29:33
Speaker 3: may think.
29:42
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
29:45
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the
29:48
Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help.
29:50
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff
29:54
Speaker 1: Cliburn and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always,
29:58
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated compe Jay Ralph. Be
30:01
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
30:04
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
30:09
Speaker 1: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
30:11
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one